The Crane and Lewis

[Valve Bounce]

I have been looking in various websites and cannot find an explanation why hamilton was permitted to continue to race after a crane lifted him back onto the track.
Can anyone explain to me why, during the red flag period, the other drivers who were beached into the sand were not also re-instated into the race?
Had Lewis scored any points, would Ferrari and/or any of the other teams protested?

I mean this was blatant. I know this was discussed in teh thread concerning the race, but I just thought I'd start a new line of discussion on this.

Here's what andreaq posted - great stuff. http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=anthony20hamiltonsu4.jpg

[jso1985]

the only explanation could be that the rules state that a driver can be pushed back by the marshalls if his car is in a dangerous position(like MS in Nurburgring 03).

now probably the rules doesn't state that the marshall can't use a crane to push the driver back to the track!

[V12]

I think it's a technicality - IIRC (the rules may have changed in the past 10 years or so), only push starts are explicitly not allowed, and I didn't see him get one - he seemed to take advantage of the downhill gradient after getting back on track to bump start his car, like Patrese when he won at Monaco in '82.

He shouldn't have been allowed to regain that lap though (which he lost again due to his early stop for drys, but that doesn't matter)

[Valve Bounce]

I think it's a technicality - IIRC (the rules may have changed in the past 10 years or so), only push starts are explicitly not allowed, and I didn't see him get one - he seemed to take advantage of the downhill gradient after getting back on track to bump start his car, like Patrese when he won at Monaco in '82.

He shouldn't have been allowed to regain that lap though (which he lost again due to his early stop for drys, but that doesn't matter)

Commentators said he kept the engine running.
However, if we get several cars in the gravel, then who gets lifted first? and who doesn't?

Is there an FIA rule to clarify this?

[jso1985]

He shouldn't have been allowed to regain that lap though (which he lost again due to his early stop for drys, but that doesn't matter)

that I'm sure it's a new rule for this year, all lapped cars during a SC period may overtake and regain the laps they lost

[leopard]

I think that was very contextual, all those trapped at the same gravel have chance back at the race if they keep the engine running and craned.

[ioan]

he seemed to take advantage of the downhill gradient after getting back on track to bump start his car, like Patrese when he won at Monaco in '82.

It would be exceptional if it was possible, but to bump start a V8 with a 600kg car on that a small gradient is impossible.

[ArrowsFA1]

Hamilton was able to keep the engine running while he was stuck in the gravel, which is why he was able to drive off after being lifted out.

[leopard]

Hamilton was able to keep the engine running while he was stuck in the gravel, which is why he was able to drive off after being lifted out.
He might not notice that at that time he was trapped in the gravel, why could he keep the engine running. :laugh:

[XR8]

Now my question would be= How come Hamiltons car was lifted onto the track but the other cars were lifted behind the barriers? Now wheather his engine was running or not should not have any bearing on this decision bt the marshals.

[F1MAN2007]

that I'm sure it's a new rule for this year, all lapped cars during a SC period may overtake and regain the laps they lost

But not craned and get back to race? :eek:

[ArrowsFA1]

Now my question would be= How come Hamiltons car was lifted onto the track but the other cars were lifted behind the barriers?
I'd guess because the drivers of those cars were already on their way back to the pits on foot and out of the race.

While lucky to have avoided damage, Hamilton should be given credit for having the presence of mind to keep his engine running in the hope he may be able to continue.

[BDunnell]

He shouldn't have been allowed to regain that lap though (which he lost again due to his early stop for drys, but that doesn't matter)

Are we sure that he had actually lost a lap at the time the red flag came out? McLaren obviously managed to convince somebody that he hadn't. This question came up during the BBC radio commentary.

[F1MAN2007]

I'd guess because the drivers of those cars were already on their way back to the pits on foot and out of the race..

Because they knew that there is no another way they could get out from the gravel unless craned which they know it is something not allowed (probably they didn't see someone before craned to get back race).

Otherwise, everyone would stick not switch off his car and wait the crane to help him. :D

[tinchote]

So now we'll start seeing drivers spinning and waiting in the gravel for the crane. Interesting :s

[leopard]

Not switch the ignition off actually will not help much, the engine will stop itself if clutched off :)

[Mark]

It's what they do (or did) in ChampCar, if you get towed out of a gravel trap by a recovery truck then you can just continue on your way.

[ArrowsFA1]

Because they knew that there is no another way they could get out from the gravel unless craned which they know it is something not allowed (probably they didn't see someone before craned to get back race).
If it were not allowed then Hamilton would have been shown the black flag, and if others assumed they couldn't continue then perhaps they don't know the rulebook as well as others :D

[leopard]

Commentators said he kept the engine running.
However, if we get several cars in the gravel, then who gets lifted first? and who doesn't?


It took effect according to the priority:
1. Who is still inside the intact car
2. Whose engine's car is still running
3. Who came in the gravel first
4. Who want to continue the race
5. Who is the promising driver to get any better after continuing the race

Hamilton had the above criteria :D

[tinchote]

If it were not allowed then Hamilton would have been shown the black flag, and if others assumed they couldn't continue then perhaps they don't know the rulebook as well as others :D


C'mon, Arrows, just do a small leap of imagination and think what people would be saying here had something like that happen with MS ;) :D

[DaveTaylor]

Now my question would be= How come Hamiltons car was lifted onto the track but the other cars were lifted behind the barriers? Now wheather his engine was running or not should not have any bearing on this decision bt the marshals.

Couldn't agree more if he couldn't get the car out of the gravel under the power of the engine then he's stuck and out of the race. The only place the car should have been lifted to was over the barriers. No way should he have been put back on track.
That imageshack link that was posted earlier is a blinder!

[janneppi]

It seems the German marshal s have rules of their own, if it's a German driver or a German car, they can help them back on track.

[F1MAN2007]

If it were not allowed then Hamilton would have been shown the black flag, and if others assumed they couldn't continue then perhaps they don't know the rulebook as well as others :D

Then we can say that he cheated intelligently knowing very well the loophole of the regulations?!! ;) :D

So like someone said, whatever MS can do, Lewis can do better :D

[F1MAN2007]

It seems the German marshal s have rules of their own, if it's a German driver or a German car, they can help them back on track.


Good point. The German marshal are used to that, like they did for Schumi in 2003!! :D

[Dave B]

All this talk of "bump starting" ignores the fact that a modern F1 engine needs hooking up to a computer to start it.

Lewis kept his engine running (or the McLaren anti-stall system is better than some), so was allowed to continue.

I'm sure that if it had been against the rules he would have been investigated during the race, and black flagged accordingly.

This isn't a pro- or anti-Lewis issue, it's simply following rules laid down in black and white. The conspiracy theorists are being kept busy with that race, aren't they?

[Flat.tyres]

the rules state that you can be assisted back onto the track if your car is in a dangerous position. I think we can all agree that his car was in a dangerous position. so, Lewis had thye prescence of mind to keep the engine going and get back on track.

McLaren thought that the lap previous, Lewis had not been lapped so should not have had to regain a lap.

when the race restarted, it was behind the safety car and the rules state that after (I think) 90 seconds, any lapped cars can unlap themselves to get the "chaff" out of the way of the quick boys and make a safer restart.

[F1MAN2007]

Do you think if Lewis could manage to score points, would have some teams stayed silent like they are today? I don't think so.

As long as he didn't score any point, it is useless for them to argue on this issue and now the instruction to drivers is to do whatever they can if they spin, keep the engine running and wait the crane to take you off the gravel and get back to race.

No one will claim and Lewis's case would be a proof that it is allowed.

[BDunnell]

C'mon, Arrows, just do a small leap of imagination and think what people would be saying here had something like that happen with MS ;) :D

Yes, and it would have been unfair then, because it would still have been within the letter of the rules.

[BDunnell]

McLaren thought that the lap previous, Lewis had not been lapped so should not have had to regain a lap.

Clearly, this was proved to be correct.

[ArrowsFA1]

Do you think if Lewis could manage to score points, would have some teams stayed silent like they are today? I don't think so.
Teams "stayed silent" because there was no problem with what was done.

You're right that in future drivers may stay in the car with the engine running, but shouldn't they be doing that anyway if they have an otherwise healthy car? It shouldn't take a rookie to make them aware that they can, they should know that already shouldn't they?

[MAX_THRUST]

Any car in a dangerous place can get a push start, well its been done for Schumi in the past, and no one complained.

As much as Lewis was pleased to be lifted out so quickly, what on earth was the big tractor doing in the gravel trap when the road was so dangerous and cars were still spinning off????? Why was the red not called sooner??? I just think the Marshalls were running about in a dangerous spot, and the big yellow tractor was a serious cause for concern. I really feel it should have been made to wait until the safety car had slowed everyone up.

[thetrooper_uk]

Too much politics with F1 and it proves that it needs something like this to make it worth watching. The race should not have been stopped, Lewis shouldn't have been unlapped or put back on the track and they shouldn't be allowed to alter the cars in anyway for the restart. I still wonder why F1 is still called as the best motorsport. It's not sporting for all the help he was given.
All the FIA is intrested in is money and they always will be. In my opinion money ruins sports, it should be about pride and not how much you get paid.

[Dave B]

Do you think if Lewis could manage to score points, would have some teams stayed silent like they are today? I don't think so..
Do you seriously think that McLaren's rivals would have stayed silent had they witnessed the rules being broken? You can just hear Jean Todt thinking, "Ah well, let's wait an hour or so and see if he can get into the points". Rubbish - if McLaren had been in the wrong you can bet that a protest would have been lodged within minutes.

[F1MAN2007]

Any car in a dangerous place can get a push start, well its been done for Schumi in the past, and no one complained.

As much as Lewis was pleased to be lifted out so quickly, what on earth was the big tractor doing in the gravel trap when the road was so dangerous and cars were still spinning off????? Why was the red not called sooner??? I just think the Marshalls were running about in a dangerous spot, and the big yellow tractor was a serious cause for concern. I really feel it should have been made to wait until the safety car had slowed everyone up.


I agree with you. If I remember very well, already one Red Bull car (If I am not mistaken) slipped in the same corner and touched the rear wheel of the yellow tractor.

Like you said, the yellow tractor was more dangerous than Lewis which means it should have removed first and wait or sliding finish and come back to give that little help to the rookie.

[F1MAN2007]

Do you seriously think that McLaren's rivals would have stayed silent had they witnessed the rules being broken? You can just hear Jean Todt thinking, "Ah well, let's wait an hour or so and see if he can get into the points". Rubbish - if McLaren had been in the wrong you can bet that a protest would have been lodged within minutes.

It can't suprise me for Ferrari because this happened in the past for Schumi, so yesterday they didn't have another option unless to stay silent. Otherwise it would have been seen like a cheating by them in that time with MS.

But like you said, if no one did protest, let us say it is allowed so next time the monkeys have to keep their engine running and wait the little help from the crane as the rookie showed them how to cheat intelligently. :D

[F1MAN2007]

......All the FIA is intrested in is money and they always will be. In my opinion money ruins sports, it should be about pride and not how much you get paid.


One day, a WDC said : " The F1 is business 24/24 and 7/7, and it is a sport only 2 hours on sunday"

[andreag]

Clearly, this was proved to be correct.
I posted a link in another thread proving the opposite.

Can you, please, post a link proven what you say?

This is my link (it's official, not press stuff):

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1111777891__EUR_Race_Lap_Chart_07.pdf

[Dave B]

Just watching the replay, Button and Sutil were straight out of their cars - so obviously there engines had stopped.

Hamilton was alone in keeping his engine running, and staying in the car. That's why he got help and nobody else did.

It does ask the question of how cars would be prioritised in the event of two or more drivers being in the same position, but as we're talking about such a rare event I doubt it's a major issue.

And Lewis did indeed lose a lap waiting for the crane to arrive.

[wedge]

the rules state that you can be assisted back onto the track if your car is in a dangerous position. I think we can all agree that his car was in a dangerous position. so, Lewis had thye prescence of mind to keep the engine going and get back on track.

It's kinda silly if you think about it.

Lewis remaining in the car was risky and dangerous itself because cars were aquaplaning off left, right and centre. Lewis could've been hurt or caused more carnage eg. an STR luckily brushed against a JCB's wheel.

[Dave B]

I actually agree with wedge. Hamilton's car was far closer to the barrier (almost touching!) than the track, therefore it would have been safer for him to jump out.

That's an issue for the rulemakers, though, if it's a stupid rule. You can't blame Lewis or any other competitive sportsperson for using the rules to their advantage.

[ioan]

It does ask the question of how cars would be prioritised in the event of two or more drivers being in the same position, but as we're talking about such a rare event I doubt it's a major issue.

Rare or not the rules should account for it, which isn't the case.

After thinking a bit about it I realized that Lewis shouldn't have been put back on track anymore.
Before going crazy about what the rules state and all the rest think about the moment when he was sent back on the track! Was it under racing conditions? No it wasn't, it was either under SC conditions or even better under red flags!
His car was in no more in a dangerous position anymore at the moment when he was lifted and placed on the track, because there was no more racing at that moment!

Well at least he didn't get in the points or Ron would have gone mad if the rivals would have asked for his disqualification after the race.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, had Ralfie stayed in his car and kept the engine running, the tractor was along very promptly and could have lifted him back on track too.

[Dave B]

Ralf was too busy getting stroppy and physical with one of the track workers. I completely understand his frustration, but pushing marshals around just isn't on. :down:

[V12]

Hamilton definitely lost a lap, IIRC he rejoined ahead of Massa and Alonso, but behind Winkelhock who of course was leading at that point. Strictly speaking he should have taken the restart 2nd on the road but a lap down.

And yes I was probably wrong on the bump start thing with a modern F1 engine and he probably kept it running - when I saw him back on the track and slowly rolling downhill before accelerating away I just assumed that without bearing in mind how a modern F1 engine behaves :P

[F1MAN2007]

Wasn't the yellow tractor (crane) quickly to put Lewis back on track than on saturday where it took more time for any marshall to get on him when he crashed?!

[Dave B]

Yes, because on Sunday the drivers ploughed straight on at a corner where one might reasonably expect an incident therefore place more resources. Not rocket science.

[F1MAN2007]

Yes, because on Sunday the drivers ploughed straight on at a corner where one might reasonably expect an incident therefore place more resources. Not rocket science.

I understand now. Thank you

[donKey jote]

So like someone said, whatever MS can do, Lewis can do better :D

The correct quote would be "Anything Schu can do, Lew can do better" (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=309059#post309059), sung to the new Mercedes ad tune :p :

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[jens]

But I'm wondering about one thing. Is it sure that none of the others, who went off, kept engine going? And if someone kept his engine going, then why wasn't he helped out? It would have been a bizzare outcome of the rules - one can be helped and the other one not.

I think Hamilton's case may create an interesting precedent. Now in the future whoever flies off the track (and the car isn't badly damaged),just stays in the car and waves his arms to the crane driver. Wouldn't it be weird if in the future we're going to see every driver, who has stuck in the gravel trap, getting back in the track by the help of a crane?

Btw, how long have such rules existed? Interesting that only rookie Hamilton has been the only one, who knew that it's possible to continue the race with the help of a crane.

I remember Barrichello in 2003 US GP kept his engine going in the gravel, but didn't get a help by any crane or marshalls. Why have cranes never helped a driver before or why haven't the majority of drivers, who have spun, known such rule by switching the car off and getting quickly out of the car? Or are the German marshals and crane drivers the only ones, who know the rules perfectly? (German accuracy :D )

So many stupid questions, but no answers...

[Ian McC]

Good post that Jens, maybe the FIA will do something about it, or maybe not :D

Imagine if 2 cars were in the same position, wonder if the correct one would be removed first.

[Schnell]

the only explanation could be that the rules state that a driver can be pushed back by the marshalls if his car is in a dangerous position(like MS in Nurburgring 03).

now probably the rules doesn't state that the marshall can't use a crane to push the driver back to the track!

But if a car is in a dangerous position...which it certainly was! Wouldn't it be the safest thing to get the driver out and behind the safety barrier and the car lifted there too?

Surely it's not safe for a driver to be swinging around carried by a crane either? And surely it can't be within normal Safety Standards either?

[ojciec dyrektor]

Hamilton should be dropped of 10 grid positions at Hungary.

On lap 4th he was lapped and he was following race lider Winkelhock. When SC gave signal for lapped cars, that they can overtake Hamilton passed him.
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/932413320__EUR_Race_History_Chart_07.pdf

[schmenke]

...Surely it's not safe for a driver to be swinging around carried by a crane either? ...

That's the first thought that crossed my mind.

[DaveTaylor]

The yellow tractor or crane as you are all calling it, well it's neither it was a JCB LOADALL prob a 525 its a telehandler or if you are still confused its like a telescopic forklift normally used on building sites or farms
its not a tractor or a crane

[Big Ben]

Rare or not the rules should account for it, which isn't the case.

After thinking a bit about it I realized that Lewis shouldn't have been put back on track anymore.
Before going crazy about what the rules state and all the rest think about the moment when he was sent back on the track! Was it under racing conditions? No it wasn't, it was either under SC conditions or even better under red flags!
His car was in no more in a dangerous position anymore at the moment when he was lifted and placed on the track, because there was no more racing at that moment!

Well at least he didn't get in the points or Ron would have gone mad if the rivals would have asked for his disqualification after the race.

it took you some time but you pulled it off.

[F1MAN2007]

The yellow tractor or crane as you are all calling it, well it's neither it was a JCB LOADALL prob a 525 its a telehandler or if you are still confused its like a telescopic forklift normally used on building sites or farms
its not a tractor or a crane


Interesting :D but all the british media used the term "crane", so who is right? :rolleyes:

[F1MAN2007]

why drivers get out quickly from their cars when they spin and are caught in the gravel?

Normaly for the safety reason, drivers are told to do so for not puting their life or the life of others (including the guys working with the crane or the big lift) in danger. And Lewis's car was in a safe place compared to the yellow tractor moving in gravel to give him that little help.

Despite what happened yesterday, even Hamilton staying in his car, he was puting as well his life in danger as we have seen one spyker (If I remember very well) kissed a little bit his rear wing. Imagine what could have happened if the spyker had collided into the Mclaren?!

don't think that it is clever for what Hamiliton did (even if I don't blame him for that), but he has been lucky enough to get the crane or the big lift to put him back to the track, which may have been caused another tragedy when the Red Bull as well touched the rear wheel of the yellow tractor (whatever the name you may call it).


For me, the Safety issue with the last GP was poor and below the line the FIA should review regulations on this or make a clarification for next time.

[DaveTaylor]

Interesting :D but all the british media used the term "crane", so who is right? :rolleyes:

Well having worked in a JCB depot and have driven them before, i think i believe me,
but then again the press are always right arn't they.
Even JCB must be wrong in there sales bumff as they call them telehandlers as are the red ones (manitou as they are called) you'll see at some circuits watch for them at the french gp (manitou are a french company) :D

[samuratt]

The marshalls did very badly! too late and wrong decisions.

About Hamilton and the crane i think it is not stated in the rules book that a driver can't be pushed back to race by a crane, and that is because this was de first time :D He was lucky he could continue racing, but he was lucky too he is healthy, cause he risked his life for mor than a minute seeing how cars crashed around him while he was waiting for help. The rulebook, the same that does not state he can's be pushed back to race by a crane, also states that a driver in a dangerous position must leave the car as soon as he can and it is safe. Somebody should tell him that what he did was risky.

[Crypt]

It would of been my first instinct to get the F outta dodge knowing that you followed a car in there and you were almost clipped by another. I don't know if he was just ballsy, or Ron or his dad were screaming into the radio to stay put and keep the engine running.

To be honest, his day should of been done right there and he should of exited the car ASAP since that was a dangerous area to be in. I even shouted at the TV for him to get out, when I saw more cars come flying into that area. Then Liuzzi goes airborn and clips the crane. I couldn't believe it when they let Lewis off the hook and he just took off like it was no big deal. Bad juju, it will bite him back.

[Hendersen]

Any car in a dangerous place can get a push start, well its been done for Schumi in the past, and no one complained.



I guess you have been asleep for several years? Or maybe you never read British trash?

I'm so happy Hamilton showed up to show just how big of a fraud the British media is.

[Hawkmoon]

When exactly did the Safety Car deploy? Did it deploy before or after the crane/tractor/whatever-the-hell-it-was got Hamilton hooked up? I can't recall.

If Hamilton was placed back on the track under racing conditions then the marshals put him and themselves in even more danger as they placed him on the outside of a turn that had just become a car park with at least 4 cars spinning there already.

If the safety car was already deployed then Hamilton should not have been put back on the track. With the cars no longer at racing speeds the marshals had time to remove the Mclaren to the other side of the barriers which was the safest place for all concerned.

You can't blame Hamilton for getting the help but I think the rules need to be clarrified and those marshals need to be re-trained.

[Valve Bounce]

Well having worked in a JCB depot and have driven them before, i think i believe me,
but then again the press are always right arn't they.
Even JCB must be wrong in there sales bumff as they call them telehandlers as are the red ones (manitou as they are called) you'll see at some circuits watch for them at the french gp (manitou are a french company) :D


I don't know about Scottish Industrial regulations, but when I was an Engineer in the Snowy Mountains Authority in charge of operators and labourers, all front end loaders, including the small Ferguson 3 in 1 front end loader were clasiffied as cranes, and all operators on these machines require a crane operator's licence. They must have a knowledge of all safety regulations and procedures for operating cranes as well as crane operator's signals.

Thus the title of this thread as the JCB was being used as a crane to lift the McLaren.

Now I would ask if the following broke any industrial regulations:

1. Whether lifting the car with the engine running,
2. Whether lifting the car with the driver still in the car,
3. Whether operating the JCB in an area where cars were still coming off the track at speed constituted a dangerous environment. I would add here that a Torro Rosso nearly ran into the crane.

I don't want to get into any discussions as to what the JCB sales bumff maight call this machien, or any other machine; in this instance would you not agree that the JCB was being used as a crane, and thererfore subject to crane operating regulations?

Following from the above, I just wonder whether the FIA should have proper procedures for drivers once their cars are beached in a gravel trap and cannot get out under its own power:
1. Should the driver switch off the engine (in case it catches fire from the heat if he doesn't)
2. Should the driver remove the steering wheel and get out of the car
3. Should the driver follow marshals' explicit instructions to move quickly to a position of safety, such as behind a safety fence.

[Hendersen]

When exactly did the Safety Car deploy? Did it deploy before or after the crane/tractor/whatever-the-hell-it-was got Hamilton hooked up? I can't recall.

Well after Hamilton was placed back on the track.



If Hamilton was placed back on the track under racing conditions then the marshals put him and themselves in even more danger as they placed him on the outside of a turn that had just become a car park with at least 4 cars spinning there already.

Another car actually hit the Crane, in fact.

[wmcot]

Do you think if Lewis could manage to score points, would have some teams stayed silent like they are today? I don't think so.

As long as he didn't score any point, it is useless for them to argue on this issue and now the instruction to drivers is to do whatever they can if they spin, keep the engine running and wait the crane to take you off the gravel and get back to race.

No one will claim and Lewis's case would be a proof that it is allowed.


I totally agree - why disqualify a driver who got no points anyway? Just to se a DQ on his record? Still, someone needs to look into the rules and get a clarification from the officials. All the F1 websites I've looked at are treating this as a non-issue.

I can't help but wonder if he had gotten craned back to the track and finished higher than FA, how would FA react???? :)

[wmcot]

Any car in a dangerous place can get a push start, well its been done for Schumi in the past, and no one complained.


Really??? You weren't reading the same forums I was reading back then!!!

[leopard]

I think Hamilton's case may create an interesting precedent. Now in the future whoever flies off the track (and the car isn't badly damaged),just stays in the car and waves his arms to the crane driver. Wouldn't it be weird if in the future we're going to see every driver, who has stuck in the gravel trap, getting back in the track by the help of a crane?

So many stupid questions, but no answers...
In some cases a referee have to make an instant judgment according to his own interpretation against incident which is not explicitly stated as rules of the game.

The crane gate might not stated on the rules but there is also no statement that it breaks the rules.

In normal accidents most of which only one or two drivers involved, I doubt that they will crane the car up and back again at the race.

There were five drivers in the same gravel in the same lap, I'd rather consider it as unusual thing. Craning the car might be their interpretations in facing this sort of problem never happened in the story of F1.

Why should Hamilton the choice? it was simply because he was the only one in the running engine car. He deserved of credit for his initiative keep inside the car and able to keep the engine running until auxiliaries come.

That's not easy, those in the accident tend to forget their cool-head, clutch off while gears is on will stop the engine automatically.

Every question has its answer because every rose also has its torn :)

[Valve Bounce]

Let's just think about how dangerous this really was. The front end loader was being operated as a crane, with a sling lifting the McLaren while cars were running off the track at that precise location. Now had one of the cars run off under the McLaren with the driver's head hitting the bottom of the wing, I am sure the reaction here would have been a lot more negative.

The FIA must surely tighten up their safety regulations regarding drivers who have beached their cars in the gravel traps.

That JCB, for whatever reason, had no right to be where it was until all the cars stopped running past. Does anyone disagree with this point?

[leopard]

He is even accustomed jumping out of helicopter

[leopard]

I am not sure they operated the crane without any warning to drivers remain at the track, the drivers must have been told with either some yellow flag or radio instruction, if safety car wasn't yet deployed.

[ioan]

When exactly did the Safety Car deploy? Did it deploy before or after the crane/tractor/whatever-the-hell-it-was got Hamilton hooked up? I can't recall.

If Hamilton was placed back on the track under racing conditions then the marshals put him and themselves in even more danger as they placed him on the outside of a turn that had just become a car park with at least 4 cars spinning there already.

If the safety car was already deployed then Hamilton should not have been put back on the track. With the cars no longer at racing speeds the marshals had time to remove the Mclaren to the other side of the barriers which was the safest place for all concerned.

You can't blame Hamilton for getting the help but I think the rules need to be clarrified and those marshals need to be re-trained.

The safety car was already deployed at the moment when the tractor (crane, telehandler or whatever) entered the gravel trap to rescue the cars, remember that Liuzzi almost collected the Safety Car before going of and touching the yellow "whatsoever" that was coming to rescue the beached cars.

At the moment when lewis was lifted and put back on the track the SC was definitely on track and maybe the race was already red flagged, which means that he was no more in a danger and he had no right to be allowed back on track.
I do believe that if he would have got any points at the end of the race than other teams would have contested it.

[ioan]

I am not sure they operated the crane without any warning to drivers remain at the track, the drivers must have been told with either some yellow flag or radio instruction, if safety car wasn't yet deployed.

The SC was already deployed.

[Hendersen]

I am not sure they operated the crane without any warning to drivers remain at the track, the drivers must have been told with either some yellow flag or radio instruction, if safety car wasn't yet deployed.

Oh, you are sure? I was sure that after the 3-4 first cars that slid off that corner that the other drivers would no way in hell slip off the corner, knowing that the corner was extra slippery. Didn't happen. They kept sliding off that corner. The reality is that the gravel in those traps are designed to slow the cars down, and the tires are a great way to cushion the impact because it distrubtes the force being applied over a period of time. What happens when you take the gravel away and put a steel wall there? You get a recipe for dead formula one drivers.

The crane should have not even been out in the gravel trap until all the cars were safely behind the safety car.

[wmcot]

The crane should have not even been out in the gravel trap until all the cars were safely behind the safety car.

Thank you! Now THAT makes sense! (Which is why the FIA will ignore it)

[wmcot]

the only explanation could be that the rules state that a driver can be pushed back by the marshalls if his car is in a dangerous position(like MS in Nurburgring 03).

now probably the rules doesn't state that the marshall can't use a crane to push the driver back to the track!

In 2003, MS's car was half-on, half-off the track surface. Lewis was 20 meters off the surface! How is that the same?

[wmcot]

Now I would ask if the following broke any industrial regulations:

1. Whether lifting the car with the engine running,
2. Whether lifting the car with the driver still in the car,
3. Whether operating the JCB in an area where cars were still coming off the track at speed constituted a dangerous environment.


The rules clearly allow for this IF the track is in Germany and the engine is built by a German manufacturer! ;)

[ioan]

In 2003, MS's car was half-on, half-off the track surface. Lewis was 20 meters off the surface! How is that the same?

What's the difference when you're a McLaren fan? ;)

[F1MAN2007]

Now I would ask if the following broke any industrial regulations:

1. Whether lifting the car with the engine running,
2. Whether lifting the car with the driver still in the car,
3. Whether operating the JCB in an area where cars were still coming off the track at speed constituted a dangerous environment. I would add here that a Torro Rosso nearly ran into the crane..


I think all this broke the Safety Regulations totally.




Following from the above, I just wonder whether the FIA should have proper procedures for drivers once their cars are beached in a gravel trap and cannot get out under its own power:
1. Should the driver switch off the engine (in case it catches fire from the heat if he doesn't)
2. Should the driver remove the steering wheel and get out of the car
3. Should the driver follow marshals' explicit instructions to move quickly to a position of safety, such as behind a safety fence.

Following the interview done by Mr Mike Gascoyne of Spyker on Telegraph, he said that for the safety reasons, drivers beached in gravel trap and cannot get out under its own straight away are told to get out of the car quickly and move to a position of safety. Of course the engine should be switched off.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

When the Torro Rosso hit the crane the safety car was already out as he narrowly missed hitting hit first.

[F1MAN2007]

I am not sure they operated the crane without any warning to drivers remain at the track, the drivers must have been told with either some yellow flag or radio instruction, if safety car wasn't yet deployed.

The crane can't be operated without instructions from the race control.

And the crane can't ioperate without the SC deployed already. So, first the race control deploy the SC and then after they give a go ahead to the crane's staff to do their job. Which means there is no breach of rule, the crane operated while the SC was already released.

[Valve Bounce]

When the Torro Rosso hit the crane the safety car was already out as he narrowly missed hitting hit first.

That does not mean the crane/front end loader/tractor had any right to be in an area where cars were likely to come off at speed.

The tractor should only be deployed when there is no longer any likelihood of any cars going past. Had a red flag been shown to stop all cars on track to return to the pits at pedestrian speeds, that bloody JCB/ tractor/pseudo crane call it what you like should not have been there, let alone be lifting a car on a sling. How bloody dangerous was that?

[F1MAN2007]

That does not mean the crane/front end loader/tractor had any right to be in an area where cars were likely to come off at speed.

The tractor should only be deployed when there is no longer any likelihood of any cars going past. Had a red flag been shown to stop all cars on track to return to the pits at pedestrian speeds, that bloody JCB/ tractor/pseudo crane call it what you like should not have been there, let alone be lifting a car on a sling. How bloody dangerous was that?


THE SAFETY was completely ignored and by luck, nothig really bad happened otherwise it could have been one of the most disaster in F1.

[andreag]

I'm sorry to deny what some said about the SC, but in the precise instant when Lewis car was put back on track, the race wasn't red flagged, and the safety car was about to be deployed (but not yet).

If someone want to take a look at the race history chart (http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/932413320__EUR_Race_History_Chart_07.pdf), Lewis finished lap 4 behind Winkelhock, but before Massa and Alonso; he doesn't appears on lap 3, as he was on the gravel.

Winkelhock passed lap 3 with an advantage of 36 seconds to Massa, and passed lap 4 33 seconds before the brazilian, but with Hamilton behind him (though lapped).

If safety car would be deployed between laps 3 and 4, Winkelhock advantage would be disappeared in lap 4, as the SC speed would make the group to get closer in less than a lap.

That means Winkelhock reached the SC after passing lap 4.

But Lewis passed lap 4 just behind him, and as he was left by the crane on turn 1, that means the crane arrived, took Lewis' car, and put him back on the track, before the SC.

You can also watch how Lewis is about to be put on the track again, as Winkelhock car is coming after passing the line at the end of lap 3, without any trace of a safety car:

http://mm.motor21.com/%2FEspa%F1ol%2FDeportes%2FMotor%2FF%F3rmula_1%2FNo ticias%2F30724/hamilton_des.jpg

[Valve Bounce]

Thanks andreag! I think that F1 cars were coming off that corner long before the SC arrived and went past while Lewis was lifted back onto the track. Does anyone wish to state otherwise?

[SGWilko]

Despite what happened yesterday, even Hamilton staying in his car, he was puting as well his life in danger as we have seen one spyker (If I remember very well) kissed a little bit his rear wing. Imagine what could have happened if the spyker had collided into the Mclaren?!

I guess the point here ought to be made that;

F1 is a dangerous sport, due to the speeds the cars race at. They are designed with safety cells, collapsible structures front, rear and to the sides.

As soon as the teams see the cars aquaplaning they tell their drivers to slow down, so the end of the straight becomes less unsafe.

If the 'other' drivers slither off, did not think to clutch in the engine, then that is their issue. Lewis kept it going, was assisted away from a potentially dangerous spot (run off gravel - which incidentally is more and more being changed to tarmac) and was able to continue.

Now, you can all bleat on about this was wrong, that was wrong, was it a JCB, or a crane blah blah blah, but the prescedent has been set - at the same venue, by Schumi a while back, who also knew the rules, had the foresight to keep the engine running and got the help from the marshalls.

Get over it guys.

[SGWilko]

just how big of a fraud the British media is.

Could not agree more. Why, the scum British press are so dishonest these days, you'd do well not to believe the date they print on the front their dailies.

[MAX_THRUST]

I appreciate the Safety Car being out and appreciate the need to remove vehicles quickly, but the positioning of the safety car on the first turn, where there was clearly a major problem, seems wrong. Ideally beofre the corner where the problem is, or in Sundays case he'd been better around the first turn. I guess you can't tell, till it happens, but when cars are sliding off at slow speeds under safety car conditions, then clearly the track is not safe, so red flag it, when everyone has parked on the start finish line and no one is coming past then get the tractor out.....

As for cars not getting any assistance after stalling or spinning off I wish we would take a leaf out the Champ Car/IRL book. Lets get them back on the track and running.

[ioan]

I'm sorry to deny what some said about the SC, but in the precise instant when Lewis car was put back on track, the race wasn't red flagged, and the safety car was about to be deployed (but not yet).

If someone want to take a look at the race history chart (http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/932413320__EUR_Race_History_Chart_07.pdf), Lewis finished lap 4 behind Winkelhock, but before Massa and Alonso; he doesn't appears on lap 3, as he was on the gravel.

Winkelhock passed lap 3 with an advantage of 36 seconds to Massa, and passed lap 4 33 seconds before the brazilian, but with Hamilton behind him (though lapped).

If safety car would be deployed between laps 3 and 4, Winkelhock advantage would be disappeared in lap 4, as the SC speed would make the group to get closer in less than a lap.

That means Winkelhock reached the SC after passing lap 4.

But Lewis passed lap 4 just behind him, and as he was left by the crane on turn 1, that means the crane arrived, took Lewis' car, and put him back on the track, before the SC.

You can also watch how Lewis is about to be put on the track again, as Winkelhock car is coming after passing the line at the end of lap 3, without any trace of a safety car:

http://mm.motor21.com/%2FEspa%F1ol%2FDeportes%2FMotor%2FF%F3rmula_1%2FNo ticias%2F30724/hamilton_des.jpg

The safety car was on track when Liuzzi hit the crane that was going to save Hamilton from the gravel trap, so I can't understand how is that the SC was not deployed when Hamilton was lifted back on track? :rolleyes:

[Bagwan]

When an accident occurs , and the car is beached , a driver is encouraged to exit quickly when he deems it safe , but he is also receiving instructions from 2 sources .
He will have his radio contact with his pits , and corner workers nearby . This is essential , as he is largely un-sighted in the cockpit .

I must watch the replay , as I want to see what instruction the corner guys were giving him , as it seems that perhaps words in his ear piece were telling him to stay put .
Being that there were cars careening towards them , one after another , those safety guys may have told him to stay strapped in , or may have overlooked him for a moment , as they saw to others' safety , or thier own .

The situation was similar in Brazil a few years ago , and we almost had a "crane" hit then , too .

In this case , being that he was in the same kind of safety cell that saved Kubica in Canada at frightening speed , and that a car even hit that "crane" while positioning to pick him up , I think he was wise to stay where he was , as he was likely in a safer place in the car at the time .


One question , though , would be why Luizzi was travelling that fast .
I know they are citing a suspension fault , but he flew over that curbing , just missing that safety car , before he stopped at the "crane" .

[SGWilko]

One question , though , would be why Luizzi was travelling that fast .
I know they are citing a suspension fault , but he flew over that curbing , just missing that safety car , before he stopped at the "crane" .

A very good question too, as I understand Liuzzi had just exited the pit (according the commentary)

[donKey jote]

just missing that safety car
Both Liuzzi and Maylander were very lucky that Maylander somehow saw him coming and got out the way just in time :eek:

[andreag]

The safety car was on track when Liuzzi hit the crane that was going to save Hamilton from the gravel trap, so I can't understand how is that the SC was not deployed when Hamilton was lifted back on track? :rolleyes:
The SC entered the track on lap 3; but it wasn't until Winkelhock passed lap 4 when he came behind (and the rest of the cars too).

But the point was if the crane entered the gravel trap before the SC signal appeared, and it's clear on this video, it entered prior to the SC signal, just a couple of seconds after Button crashed, and just when Hamilton was stopping his run, as it can be seen on this video (at 5 minutes, 0 seconds):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcMqdIPzf9A

[andreag]

A very good question too, as I understand Liuzzi had just exited the pit (according the commentary)
An even better question is how he could leave the pit, if according to the rules, pit lane is closed as the SC is deployed.

[donKey jote]

3:40 "Winkelhock in the rain, a sensational tenth ! " :rotflmao:

ORF commenting is crap, I'm glad I don't have them on my watch list :D

[janneppi]

The SC entered the track on lap 3; but it wasn't until Winkelhock passed lap 4 when he came behind (and the rest of the cars too).

But the point was if the crane entered the gravel trap before the SC signal appeared, and it's clear on this video, it entered prior to the SC signal, just a couple of seconds after Button crashed, and just when Hamilton was stopping his run, as it can be seen on this video (at 5 minutes, 0 seconds):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcMqdIPzf9A
Safety car was barely moving at 6:00 in that video and began moving after a car had accelerated from the edge of turn 1, whose car was that?
Hamilton's?

[ioan]

3:40 "Winkelhock in the rain, a sensational tenth ! " :rotflmao:

ORF commenting is crap, I'm glad I don't have them on my watch list :D

You tell me?!
Hans Prüller has troubles to make a difference between an overtaken car and the overtaker.
I miss the times when I was watching F1 on the Italian television, it was far better than what I get now.

[andreag]

Safety car was barely moving at 6:00 in that video and began moving after a car had accelerated from the edge of turn 1, whose car was that?
Hamilton's?
No, Liuzzi. Who incredibly was leaving the pit lane when the SC was on the track (not only the SC signal), and it's supposedly close. Of course he couldn't continue (the crane didn't help him), and the 10 seconds penalty coudn't be applied, but no sign of this appeared

[OmarF1]

There are some issues that we need to watch in this situation,

The only reason for Hamilton to keep his engine running it was:

-Not damaging the car by going to the gravel
-Very early stage in the race, lap 4 or so, with the new safety car rule of unlapping himself and with the rocket that Macca is, he could even fight for points.

-So, for him it was worthy to keep racing.

but the fundamental thing here it is, if the Safety car rules were still the same
as last year's rules, and Hamilton was still helped to keep on racing by the crane, could McLaren could stop racing without a mechanical failure with the only motive of "not having a real reason to fight in this race", can a team do that, stop because they have nothing to fight for in a race anymore, or is it illegal??

I remember Honda did it in Australia 2005, both Honda cars were out of the points and they called them to the pits to retire motivated by the recent engine rule changes of one engine for two weekends recently applied back in 2005.

I'm getting messy, did anybody understand me?

Cheers!

[janneppi]

No, Liuzzi. Who incredibly was leaving the pit lane when the SC was on the track (not only the SC signal), and it's supposedly close. Of course he couldn't continue (the crane didn't help him), and the 10 seconds penalty coudn't be applied, but no sign of this appeared
I don't mean liuzzi, who flew into the crane :)
But the car that accelerated from corner 1 just as SC was entering it.
at 6:01 we see SC slowing to an almost halt, at 6:06 we see two F1 cars and the SC, Liuzzi is flying from right to left and one F1 car is accelerating from the corner.
Is that Hamilton or possibly one of the Williamses?

[andreag]

I don't mean liuzzi, who flew into the crane :)
But the car that accelerated from corner 1 just as SC was entering it.
at 6:01 we see SC slowing to an almost halt, at 6:06 we see two F1 cars and the SC, Liuzzi is flying from right to left and one F1 car is accelerating from the corner.
Is that Hamilton or possibly one of the Williamses?
I see; it was Davidson, who nearly reached the gravel when he spun off, stopping just in the border; he could restart unaided, and he was just leaving the dangerous line when the SC has to accelerate to avoid Liuzzi's hit from behind.

[Ian McC]

When an accident occurs , and the car is beached , a driver is encouraged to exit quickly when he deems it safe , but he is also receiving instructions from 2 sources .
He will have his radio contact with his pits , and corner workers nearby . This is essential , as he is largely un-sighted in the cockpit .

I must watch the replay , as I want to see what instruction the corner guys were giving him , as it seems that perhaps words in his ear piece were telling him to stay put .
Being that there were cars careening towards them , one after another , those safety guys may have told him to stay strapped in , or may have overlooked him for a moment , as they saw to others' safety , or thier own .

The situation was similar in Brazil a few years ago , and we almost had a "crane" hit then , too .

In this case , being that he was in the same kind of safety cell that saved Kubica in Canada at frightening speed , and that a car even hit that "crane" while positioning to pick him up , I think he was wise to stay where he was , as he was likely in a safer place in the car at the time .


One question , though , would be why Luizzi was travelling that fast .
I know they are citing a suspension fault , but he flew over that curbing , just missing that safety car , before he stopped at the "crane" .

:wave:

Welcome back Bagwan, where have you been hiding? :p :

[Ian McC]

I guess you have been asleep for several years? Or maybe you never read British trash?

I'm so happy Hamilton showed up to show just how big of a fraud the British media is.

Yes, well your dislike of everything British is well known.

[Hendersen]

Yes, well your dislike of everything British is well known.


And well deserved.

[Dave B]

I'll repeat a point I made earlier. Might have been in this thread, even. There's so much bollocks being talked that I forget.

You can argue all you like about whether Hamilton's "assist" was dangerous or unfair, but it was legal according to the letter of the rules. ANY competitive sportsman learns the rulebook and uses it to their advantage. If you don't like it, protest the FIA to change the rules. Don't criticise Hamilton for being smart enough to keep the engine running and get back on track.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game" as I believe our transatlantic brethren would say.

[pits4me]

It took effect according to the priority:
1. Who is still inside the intact car
2. Whose engine's car is still running
3. Who came in the gravel first
4. Who want to continue the race
5. Who is the promising driver to get any better after continuing the race

Hamilton had the above criteria :D

Hamilton was one of the few who stopped short of hitting the barrier. Button had damage as did Sutil. At least one of the STR cars (Luizzi) was done for the day. Not sure about Scott Speed.

[Hendersen]

I don't think people realize the sheer stupidity exhibited by the FIA and what precedent has been set here. Now everyone will make sure they have a fool-proof anti-stall mechanism, and no matter what the conditions are or where they are at on the track, they can now demand that their vehicle be lifted back onto the track. Sounds like a pretty safe situation to me. Uh-huh.

[andreag]

ANY competitive sportsman learns the rulebook and uses it to their advantage. If you don't like it, protest the FIA to change the rules.
What rule?

Can you, please, post a link to the rule about what a driver has to do to be put back on the track by a crane?

I would protest to change a wrong rule, if this rule would exists.

But it doesn't.

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe he learned there was no rule!!

[leopard]

You can also watch how Lewis is about to be put on the track again, as Winkelhock car is coming after passing the line at the end of lap 3, without any trace of a safety car:

http://mm.motor21.com/%2FEspa%F1ol%2FDeportes%2FMotor%2FF%F3rmula_1%2FNo ticias%2F30724/hamilton_des.jpg

I think under the yellow flag driver should have driven more carefully, and when SC was about to be deployed they must have been told by the team. Their drive licenses have to be investigated if they have accident under the yellow, or SC, let alone red flag. What the yellow color and SC means on the top of picture?

Was it yellow flag on left of picture or someone's yellow umbrella because it was rain, it's more similar as someone under yellow umbrella. :laugh:

[janneppi]

I see; it was Davidson, who nearly reached the gravel when he spun off, stopping just in the border; he could restart unaided, and he was just leaving the dangerous line when the SC has to accelerate to avoid Liuzzi's hit from behind.
Thanks. your eyes are better than mine. :)

[ioan]

Over on http://www.planetf1.com there is a comment that says that:



It's also worth bearing in mind that the treatment he got was illegal under the FIA's sporting code, which not only states explicitly that the cranes and recovery vehicles are "for the removal and recovery of abandoned race cars", but also that they "should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue".


Link: http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3263_2612235,00.html

I didn't read the whole rule book but if this person did it and found this than surely what happened was illegal.

[wmcot]

Now, you can all bleat on about this was wrong, that was wrong, was it a JCB, or a crane blah blah blah, but the prescedent has been set - at the same venue, by Schumi a while back, who also knew the rules, had the foresight to keep the engine running and got the help from the marshalls.

Get over it guys.


MS's car being half on the track (2 wheels on, 2 off) IS in a dangerous position, LH being 30 meters or so off the track IS NOT in a dangerous position (defined as dangerous to other drivers on the track.) You can't use the excuse that other drivers were going off at the same spot - that's exactly why LH should have left his car immediately! If Speed's TR had hit LH and injured him, you'd all be saying that he was stupid to stay in the car!

Using the "logic" of some of the obviously biased LH and McLaren fans, then all cars should be "craned" back onto any track no matter where they have gone off as long as the engine is running.

I want to know what the official rule is!!

[Ranger]

The rule seems to be defined by whatever the marshalls feel like doing.

Schumacher got a hand in 2003 at his home turf whilst Alonso in a similarly dangerous position at Monza in 2004 copped the back hand of the marshalls.

But I don't understand why Hamilton got lifted back onto the track in such dangerous conditions. That was just dumb.

[Valve Bounce]

To quote paragraph 6.1, Chapter III of appendix H from the FIA Formula One World Championship Regulations:


'If a car stops: If a car stops on the course, or leaves the track, the first duty of the course marshals in that sector is to take it to a place of safety.


'No driver has the right to refuse to allow his car to be taken off the track, he must do everything he can to help and obey the marshals' instructions. Once the car is in a place of safety the driver may, if the specific regulations of the event permit, work on it in order to re-start. In such cases other means, such as breakdown vehicles, cranes, etc. should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue. [P-F1's bolding] It is desirable that the driver stays near his vehicle until the end of the race or at least informs the post chief how his car may be lifted, or towed back to the pits.'

Chapter and verse. I just wonder now whether Hamilton's finish position will be erased, and the following drivers elevated one position.

Knowing the FIA's ineptitude, I would say "NO!"

[andreag]

I want to know what the official rule is!!
Try this:


APPENDIX H TO THE INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE

CHAPTER III - EMERGENCY SERVICES

6.1 If a car stops

If a car stops on the course, or leaves the track, the first duty of the course marshals in that sector is to take it to a place of safety.

No driver has the right to refuse to allow his car to be taken off the track, he must do everything he can to help and obey the marshals’ instructions. Once the car is in a place of safety the driver may, if the specific regulations of the event permit, work on it in order to re-start. In such cases other means, such as breakdown vehicles, cranes, etc. should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue. It is desirable that the driver stays near his vehicle until the end of the race or at least informs the post chief how his car may be lifted, or towed back to the pits.

11. Other services

The following services should also be provided:

- Vehicles for the removal and recovery of abandoned race cars:

Immobilised cars in unsafe positions should be removed to places of safety, either manually or by means of cranes or vehicles suitably adapted for the purpose of lifting a car. No other means of lifting cars should be used unless specifically authorised by the FIA.

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1653003624__Appendix_H_a.pdf

I like this phrase: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

How could Lewis made it clear he will not continue (the only way for the crane to assist him), and then change his mind?

It doesn't smell good. In fact it stinks.

[leopard]

'No driver has the right to refuse to allow his car to be taken off the track, he must do everything he can to help and obey the marshals' instructions.
What have happened to Lewis was in accordance with this article. He didn't make any refusal against what Marshal threated him, he would obey the marshal instruction if the crane finally lift him up and put him in the paddock or out of the barrier. I'm sure he will not jump out of the car when the crane was bringing him out of the track for the protest he still want to continue the race.



Once the car is in a place of safety the driver may, if the specific regulations of the event permit, work on it in order to re-start.
Once the car is back at the track that is permitted by the marshal (crane) quite safe for him to make a re-start, he did it, again no refusal against marshal instruction.
But if he didn't have chance to unlap up to reasonable distance behind driver in front of him he would have been back in the paddock of McLaren and didn't continue the race.



In such cases other means, such as breakdown vehicles, cranes, etc. should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue. [P-F1's bolding]
That's also a strong clausal for the Marshal to bring the crane into action because Lewis was in the car which had no remarkable damage, and the engine was running, that means it was obvious Lewis was wanting to continue the race.

Hence, after reading this article, they actually have the rule and not solely interpreting something out of the rule. I don't think Lewiss will be rule out from his position because he didn't do anything wrong against the rule.

[ioan]

Try this:



http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1653003624__Appendix_H_a.pdf

I like this phrase: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

How could Lewis made it clear he will not continue (the only way for the crane to assist him), and then change his mind?

It doesn't smell good. In fact it stinks.

Those of us that think it was not correct to help LH back on the track using a crane are just a few of the fans, most of the fans were happy to see their new hero be back (legal or not), so the FIA did what was best for the show.

I for one I'm not his fan but I'm happy that he continued and drove a "monkey" race! :D

[F1MAN2007]

...I for one I'm not his fan but I'm happy that he continued and drove a "monkey" race! :D


I enjoyed his "monkey" race as well :D

[555-04Q2]

I for one I'm not his fan but I'm happy that he continued and drove a "monkey" race! :D

I bet the young man regrets that comment now :laugh: He is still young though and will learn the hard way.

[ioan]

I bet the young man regrets that comment now :laugh: He is still young though and will learn the hard way.

I suppose so! ;)

[Flat.tyres]

Try this:



http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1653003624__Appendix_H_a.pdf

I like this phrase: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

How could Lewis made it clear he will not continue (the only way for the crane to assist him), and then change his mind?

It doesn't smell good. In fact it stinks.

I dont think it stinks.

on the face of it, it looked like Lewis had been very resourceful and kept his engine going to get assistance back on track. however, as you have pointed out, he should not have been craned back on track and allowed to continue.

I very much doubt that there was any intention to break the rules and the crane operator should have waited for Lewis to get out before moving him. also, the FIA should have black flagged him but I suppose with so much else going on, nobody knew what the hell was happening.

if Lewis had of scored a point, I am sure that the other teams would have had him (rightly) disqualified from the standings. as he didn't, its not worth bothering about apart from the FIA to notify Marshalls of the correct procedure in future.

[ojciec dyrektor]

if Lewis had of scored a point, I am sure that the other teams would have had him (rightly) disqualified from the standings. as he didn't, its not worth bothering about apart from the FIA to notify Marshalls of the correct procedure in future.

If FIA created rules then every team and driver have to obey that rules. It doesn't matter it's Ferrari or Spyker, Hamilton or Winkelhock, race winner or last driver.

[tinchote]

Try this:



http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1653003624__Appendix_H_a.pdf

I like this phrase: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

How could Lewis made it clear he will not continue (the only way for the crane to assist him), and then change his mind?

It doesn't smell good. In fact it stinks.

Something that has always been obvious to me - written or not - is that you don't lift a car with the driver inside. It will be very interesting to see what happens some day if they are lifting the car with the driver inside, something goes wrong, and driver gets hurt :mark:

[janneppi]

Is it my limited English skills or does the wording "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue" leave a opening if the marshalls want to, they can come and help even if it's not recommended?

[ioan]

Is it my limited English skills or does the wording "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue" leave a opening if the marshalls want to, they can come and help even if it's not recommended?

I think it's the former case! :p :

[ioan]

It doesn't matter it's Ferrari or Spyker, Hamilton or Winkelhock, race winner or last driver.

To be correct you should say "McLaren or Spyker" ! ;)

[wmcot]

if Lewis had of scored a point, I am sure that the other teams would have had him (rightly) disqualified from the standings. as he didn't, its not worth bothering about apart from the FIA to notify Marshalls of the correct procedure in future.

But don't the positions outside the points figure into a constructor's ranking at the end of the season which, in turn, determines their share of FIA money?

Is there anyone who remembers any other driver being "craned" back onto the track from a position as far off the racing surface as LH was during a race under any circumstances? MS's "push" occurred while his car was still partially on the racing surface. I don't recall anyone being helped out of a deep gravel trap in the past.

[andreag]

I don't think any driver will ask, in the technical meeting with Martin Whitmarsh before Hungary GP, if its allowed to stay in the car with the engine running to be put back in the track, if they remember his last answer to a similar question.

Last year, after Michael had jumped the chicane at Hungaroring for three times to avoid being overtaken by de la Rosa, Pedro asked in the next meeting if this would be allowed, and Martin answer was "Not in the future".

So, it's better not asking anything to keep the door open.

[Valve Bounce]

Is it my limited English skills or does the wording "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue" leave a opening if the marshalls want to, they can come and help even if it's not recommended?

In the preparation of specifications and regulations, the word shall (should is the past tense) is mandatory.

[Valve Bounce]

Something that has always been obvious to me - written or not - is that you don't lift a car with the driver inside. It will be very interesting to see what happens some day if they are lifting the car with the driver inside, something goes wrong, and driver gets hurt :mark:

I am sure that most, if not all, industrial regulations and safety regulations prohibit the lifting of a car with the driver in it and the engine running.

I cannot imagine that German industrial and safety regulations permit this. It is very interesting the the FIA has been silent on this issue, even if it is for clarification purposes. Maybe Charlie Whiting is still trying to find out from Dave Taylor whether the JCB was being used as a crane or a telehandler or forklift, and what safety regulations apply and don't apply..

[leopard]

One thing to bear in mind that Lewis obeyed all marshal instruction, I don't think he can communicate properly yelling to crane operator in order to take him back at the track.

Unless the clerk of the course has given instruction to the contrary, all such operation maybe undertaken by marshal at the scene.
The minimum requirement each marshal have to be able to communicate one another to to clerk of the course (HQ) using radio control or whatever to avoid any instruction mis-leaded.

I don't think they want with intention to break the rule, the means used must have been investigated by the FIA that it was capable and have feasibility to take such action. They might have done the closer approaching toward the incident.

Another question may arise would the HQ or FIA in general do more favor
for Hamilton? it's different case.
I doubt German series and FIA would be such philanthropist to the like of Hamilton.

In the event Hamilton scored point, I doubt also they will carry it away from him and give it to driver behind of him, because only a reason He obeyed all instruction, if you do mind to call it procedure. Would they swallow their own words (or mistake if you think it as a fault)?.

[Valve Bounce]

One thing to bear in mind that Lewis obeyed all marshal instruction, I don't think he can communicate properly yelling to crane operator in order to take him back at the track.

Unless the clerk of the course has given instruction to the contrary, all such operation maybe undertaken by marshal at the scene.
The minimum requirement each marshal have to be able to communicate one another to to clerk of the course (HQ) using radio control or whatever to avoid any instruction mis-leaded.

I don't think they want with intention to break the rule, the means used must have been investigated by the FIA that it was capable and have feasibility to take such action. They might have done the closer approaching toward the incident.

Another question may arise would the HQ or FIA in general do more favor
for Hamilton? it's different case.
I doubt German series and FIA would be such philanthropist to the like of Hamilton.

In the event Hamilton scored point, I doubt also they will carry it away from him and give it to driver behind of him, because only a reason He obeyed all instruction, if you do mind to call it procedure. Would they swallow their own words (or mistake if you think it as a fault)?.


First of all, please read the rule I quoted again. It means the crane is not permitted to lift him back onto the track to continue the race.
There was one report that said that Hamilton refused to switch off his engine and signalled the crane driver to lift him back onto the track. Everything happened very fast and there was much confusion; I doubt the clerk of the course was brought into the disscussion but maybe you have more information there.
Regarding the philanthropic action of (sic) German series I guess you mean the German organised race, and they were lifting the McLaren Mercedes back onto the track.

[Flat.tyres]

But don't the positions outside the points figure into a constructor's ranking at the end of the season which, in turn, determines their share of FIA money?

Is there anyone who remembers any other driver being "craned" back onto the track from a position as far off the racing surface as LH was during a race under any circumstances? MS's "push" occurred while his car was still partially on the racing surface. I don't recall anyone being helped out of a deep gravel trap in the past.

nope, points make prizes so if your outside the points, it doesn't matter.

there was no intention to cheat and everyone acted in good faith but unwittingly, a rule was transgressed. as there was no impact on the championship, there would be no reason to take action in my opinion apart from clarifying the situation for the teams and Marshalls next race.

[Bagwan]

nope, points make prizes so if your outside the points, it doesn't matter.

there was no intention to cheat and everyone acted in good faith but unwittingly, a rule was transgressed. as there was no impact on the championship, there would be no reason to take action in my opinion apart from clarifying the situation for the teams and Marshalls next race.

"points make prizes" but , in the case of a tie , do they not count back on positions ?
A DNF wouldn't look as good as any given position finishing , if it came down to that , and it may .

ANY advantage within the rules is worth it in F1 .
A number of issues may be cleared up before the next race .

[ShiftingGears]

I get the feeling that no teams protested because Hamilton didn't, in the end, end up with any advantage. And if they don't protest then it won't lead to a crackdown, meaning that other drivers may use this to their advantage.

I don't see any problem with the cars being lifted up while the drivers are in them. It isn't like it would be against the drivers will.

[ioan]

"points make prizes" but , in the case of a tie , do they not count back on positions ?
A DNF wouldn't look as good as any given position finishing , if it came down to that , and it may .

ANY advantage within the rules is worth it in F1 .
A number of issues may be cleared up before the next race .

Cleared up?
Not this season and not against the Golden Boy of F1. The commercial rights holder also holds Max's balls this year, it seems!

[F1MAN2007]

I get the feeling that no teams protested because Hamilton didn't, in the end, end up with any advantage. And if they don't protest then it won't lead to a crackdown, meaning that other drivers may use this to their advantage.

I don't see any problem with the cars being lifted up while the drivers are in them. It isn't like it would be against the drivers will.


"Lewis Hamilton thus could continue his race as nothing has happened. At Toro Rosso, we were very astonished by this rescue. “This moment, we saw something of absolutely new in F1,” we can read on the site of Toro Rosso .....

"If Lewis Hamilton were helped with as much speed, it is because he was only pilot blocked in the gravel not switched off his engine. The FIA qualified this as a “legal incident”

Source :http://www.01men.com/edito/f1-live-formule-1-racing-live-070724095411/hamilton-et-son-amie-la-grue/

[Bagwan]

Cleared up?
Not this season and not against the Golden Boy of F1. The commercial rights holder also holds Max's balls this year, it seems!

Of course not against Lew Lew , but , as this opens up a few cans of worms , they may say now that it won't be allowed in future . It won't be retro-active .

If it's not cleared up , we may have controversy over who gets lifted first , or worse , we may have a fire , with cars hot , and stuck in gravel with no air space beneath .
The those balls might take some heat .

[wedge]

I reminiscing over the Birmingham Superprix - which used to hold F3000 races and BTCC in the late 1980s. In one year a guy named Russell Spence crashed and blocked the circuit. Spence remained in the car hoping the race would be stopped. However the marshals knew what he was up to and proceeded to lift Spence's car via a crane with Spence remaining seated!

[Valve Bounce]

nope, points make prizes so if your outside the points, it doesn't matter.




I'm confused here. I was under the impression that the team which comes last does not get any television money. Now if two or three teams don't get any points, then their positions in all races sure do count.

However, having said this, only two teams have not scored points this year: Spyker and Torro Rosso. One of them would have missed out on funding for next year. BUT it is my understanding from commentary during one of the races that agreement has been reached between Super AGuri, Torro Rosso and Spyker that they would split the bottom two prize monies three ways and Spyker would drop their challenge to the chassis used by both Super Aguri and Torro Rosso in the courts.

So, as the matter stood at the beginning of the year, all positions outside the points did matter. Now, things are not so clear for this year.

[Valve Bounce]

I don't see any problem with the cars being lifted up while the drivers are in them. It isn't like it would be against the drivers will.


It was a dangerous procedure, that JCB being there in the first place in a dangerous location with cars coming off, and one hitting it. I would say that it would have contravened industrial and safetly regulations to lift a car while the driver was sitting in it with the engine running. Would you not agree?

[leopard]

First of all, please read the rule I quoted again. It means the crane is not permitted to lift him back onto the track to continue the race. Could you pointed out which phrase indicating that. I see that means as far as possible heavy equipment is avoided to take such action, but not like crane etc is anyhow prohibited to be brought into the action.



There was one report that said that Hamilton refused to switch off his engine and signalled the crane driver to lift him back onto the track. Everything happened very fast and there was much confusion; I doubt the clerk of the course was brought into the disscussion but maybe you have more information there.

Please read the whole chapter, I'm not quite diligent to quote a pdf, what I could remember, If they found driver to be unhurt, they should report it to race control to enable them make further decision. It wasn't solely marshal authorities to decide such action, Intervention is made by marshal at that scene unless the clerk of the course made instruction otherwise.

Seems we have to refer to more subsidiaries of chapter to produce more appropriate decision. :D

[leopard]

I get the feeling that no teams protested because Hamilton didn't, in the end, end up with any advantage. And if they don't protest then it won't lead to a crackdown, meaning that other drivers may use this to their advantage.
We should examine the rules again if it happens :)



I don't see any problem with the cars being lifted up while the drivers are in them. It isn't like it would be against the drivers will.
The crane wouldn't lift the car up to some high of 5 meter or more, falling from 1-2 meters for account of gravitation wouldn't be as bad as hitting the wall at 270 kph.

However the non-trained official it isn't a mandatory doing that.

[nigelred5]

Any car in a dangerous place can get a push start, well its been done for Schumi in the past, and no one complained.

As much as Lewis was pleased to be lifted out so quickly, what on earth was the big tractor doing in the gravel trap when the road was so dangerous and cars were still spinning off????? Why was the red not called sooner??? I just think the Marshalls were running about in a dangerous spot, and the big yellow tractor was a serious cause for concern. I really feel it should have been made to wait until the safety car had slowed everyone up.

As best as I can recall, Schumacher hadn't stalled his car either, he was high sided in the curbing. They didn't push start him that I recall, they pushed a running car out of the way. Personally, I think they should adopt rules that put cars back on the track, especially when they are put off by someone elses reckless driving.

With the standard practice of handling stricken race cars under only a local yellow, there are frequently cranes running around in the gravel, but
i do agree, continuing to run under green was foolish. Any other series would have gone full course yellow almost immediately when ther rain started falling as hard as it did.

[Valve Bounce]

Could you pointed out which phrase indicating that. I see that means as far as possible heavy equipment is avoided to take such action, but not like crane etc is anyhow prohibited to be brought into the action.


Please read the whole chapter, I'm not quite diligent to quote a pdf, what I could remember, If they found driver to be unhurt, they should report it to race control to enable them make further decision. It wasn't solely marshal authorities to decide such action, Intervention is made by marshal at that scene unless the clerk of the course made instruction otherwise.

Seems we have to refer to more subsidiaries of chapter to produce more appropriate decision. :D


It's all in post #123 by tinchote. The phrase is: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

PLease read it carefully.

[Valve Bounce]

We should examine the rules again if it happens :)


The crane wouldn't lift the car up to some high of 5 meter or more, falling from 1-2 meters for account of gravitation wouldn't be as bad as hitting the wall at 270 kph.

However the non-trained official it isn't a mandatory doing that.

There are very clear regulations, industrial and safety, for the operating of cranes in most countries. Lifting a car off the ground with the driver still in the car and the engine running could be considered a dangerous condition.

[leopard]

It's all in post #123 by tinchote. The phrase is: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

PLease read it carefully.
They found driver safe and sound, they might have reported it to the RC and decided to lift him up at back at the race. Poor Marshals if they are blamed for this. :(

This phrase applies appropriately to those damaged car and was obvious they will not and will not be able to continue the race.

[should] is closer to beckoning than prohibition, It doesn't state: Crane by all means is prohibited to be brought into action...



There are very clear regulations, industrial and safety, for the operating of cranes in most countries. Lifting a car off the ground with the driver still in the car and the engine running could be considered a dangerous condition.

This is standard and general regulation of usage of crane. They are used to lift cars in the accident like on the tollroad and put them in the garage of the police station or repair shop, while the driver/passenger have been evacuated for medical treatment. If they crane a new car there must be no driver or passenger inside, why would we be inside of the craned car?

Therefore, we have to examine if this happen again, non-skilled official is not recommended for executing the job :)

[ioan]

It's all in post #123 by tinchote. The phrase is: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

PLease read it carefully.

Why losing time Valve. No matter what's in FIA's rules they clearly decided to ignore them.
Cranes are used to allow cars back on the race, when the rules state it isn't legal!
Teams are found guilty of breaches of the sporting regulations but not punished at all, not even one penny!

The World Wrestling Federation could learn from the FIA how the work should be done.

[Valve Bounce]

Why losing time Valve. No matter what's in FIA's rules they clearly decided to ignore them.
Cranes are used to allow cars back on the race, when the rules state it isn't legal!
Teams are found guilty of breaches of the sporting regulations but not punished at all, not even one penny!

The World Wrestling Federation could learn from the FIA how the work should be done.

ioan, I'm not going to be cynical about this. Things were happening very fast, the track was suddenly awash and cars were coming off at a surprising rate, and I can only guess the priority was to despatch the SC to try to keep things under control. Mayeb the Stewards had a panic situation, who knows?

It is my view, and I had suggested this previously, that a red flag situation should be implemented via the team intercoms and all cars can be stopped on track immediately, and then returned very slowly and safely to the pits.

However, it remains my view that Lewis Hamilton had broken the rules, and he should be erased from the results.

[leopard]

Our opinion should not come with a priori - over corrective to dramatize each fissure as weakness that the procedure was carried out wrongly.

I think that flagging and SC have been deployed according to procedure before the crane taken to action. However if we are strongly convinced that it was wrong, FIA is the proper party than Hamilton.

Ahm, let’s have a hot coffee he is fastest again :D

[andreag]

It's all in post #123 by tinchote. The phrase is: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

PLease read it carefully.
I did, and I'm still thinking it's all in post #115 by Andreag. ;)

[ioan]

I did, and I'm still thinking it's all in post #115 by Andreag. ;)

You mean it's all in post #111 by ioan! ;)

[andreag]

You mean it's all in post #111 by ioan! ;)
Exactly; I said this in post #¬\€ in the thread "&%$)%·E!¿?'¡{}" (I think my keyboard has any problem) ;)

[ioan]

Exactly; I said this in post #¬\€ in the thread "&%$)%·E!¿?'¡{}" (I think my keyboard has any problem) ;)

:laugh: ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Everybody's saying it, saying it, saying it................. :confused:

[cosmicpanda]

It would of been my first instinct to get the F outta dodge knowing that you followed a car in there and you were almost clipped by another. I don't know if he was just ballsy, or Ron or his dad were screaming into the radio to stay put and keep the engine running.

To be honest, his day should of been done right there and he should of exited the car ASAP since that was a dangerous area to be in. I even shouted at the TV for him to get out, when I saw more cars come flying into that area. Then Liuzzi goes airborn and clips the crane. I couldn't believe it when they let Lewis off the hook and he just took off like it was no big deal. Bad juju, it will bite him back.

Tell me, why is it safer to be hit by another car when you are out of your car than when you are in it?

[Valve Bounce]

Well, I suppose if another car came and hit your car, it would be a little safer if you had already got the hell outa there and took refuge behind hte safety barrier. Unless, of course, if a helicopter came outa the sky and missed the car and crashed behind the safety barrier.

It's all about perspectives, I guess!!

[nightingalecars]

:D
Teams "stayed silent" because there was no problem with what was done.

You're right that in future drivers may stay in the car with the engine running, but shouldn't they be doing that anyway if they have an otherwise healthy car? It shouldn't take a rookie to make them aware that they can, they should know that already shouldn't they?


Looks like the new boy read the rule book better than some ;) ;)

[F1MAN2007]

....However, it remains my view that Lewis Hamilton had broken the rules, and he should be erased from the results.

Anyway, He didn't score any single point!! Just racing in monkeys' side was enough for him :D

[wmcot]

You're right that in future drivers may stay in the car with the engine running, but shouldn't they be doing that anyway if they have an otherwise healthy car?

Not Ralf - car goes off (or makes a "funny" noise) - hop out - return to garage - collect paycheck - day's over!!

:)

[Valve Bounce]

Poor Ralfie - nobody loves him anymore!! :(

[ioan]

Poor Ralfie - nobody loves him anymore!! :(

You like to support the underdog, why not join the Ralf fan base?

[leopard]

Not support top drivers and neither the crane ;)

[Valve Bounce]

You like to support the underdog, why not join the Ralf fan base?

Words fail me. :(

[Bagwan]

Words fail me. :(

There's a first .

[Valve Bounce]

There's a first .

:(

[cosmicpanda]

Well, I suppose if another car came and hit your car, it would be a little safer if you had already got the hell outa there and took refuge behind hte safety barrier. Unless, of course, if a helicopter came outa the sky and missed the car and crashed behind the safety barrier.

It's all about perspectives, I guess!!

I see what you mean, but surely it is safer to be in your car until you know it's safe enough to get out of it - as we all know, there were cars going off all over the place.

Don't forget that an F1 car has amazing crash protection built into it. Why move from a place of protection simply to get to another place of crash protection, risking (another) injury in the process? If he was going to be getting out in that situation with cars flying past, it would've been better to wait until the safety car or the red flag came out.

I think that I remember Martin Brundle commenting when Ralf got out of his car that he wouldn't've done it that soon, or something like that, just on the off chance that another car could crash off into that same place. Then again, that's not a direct quote, so take it as you will.

[wmcot]

You like to support the underdog, why not join the Ralf fan base?

Would one person count as a fan base? :)

[leopard]

I see what you mean, but surely it is safer to be in your car until you know it's safe enough to get out of it - as we all know, there were cars going off all over the place.

Those cars should hit the crane first before our car, so going out of it wouldn't be too bad :)

[Valve Bounce]

I see what you mean, but surely it is safer to be in your car until you know it's safe enough to get out of it - as we all know, there were cars going off all over the place.

Don't forget that an F1 car has amazing crash protection built into it. Why move from a place of protection simply to get to another place of crash protection, risking (another) injury in the process? If he was going to be getting out in that situation with cars flying past, it would've been better to wait until the safety car or the red flag came out.



K!!, lets look at this from a management perspective. First of all, we have the on site Marshalls, and it is they who will control the operation. If there are cars likely to come off, then OK, let the drivers remain in their cars with the engines switched off, until such time as the Marshalls have information that the race has been red flagged, cars have been instructed to slow right down to a crawl, and they can then make their way out to the cars in a safe manner.

In this particular case, the Marshalls were out there when cars were still coming off left, right and centre, and to make it less safe, a crane was mobilised to move the McLaren back onto the track? I am not sure which drivers were told to depart from their cars, by whom, nor when. As it turned out, one of the cars even hit the crane.

AND I am satisfied that the entire operation was carried out in a less than safe manner. I would go as far as to say that the safety of the Marshalls were put at risk.

[wmcot]

K!!, lets look at this from a management perspective. First of all, we have the on site Marshalls, and it is they who will control the operation. If there are cars likely to come off, then OK, let the drivers remain in their cars with the engines switched off, until such time as the Marshalls have information that the race has been red flagged, cars have been instructed to slow right down to a crawl, and they can then make their way out to the cars in a safe manner.

In this particular case, the Marshalls were out there when cars were still coming off left, right and centre, and to make it less safe, a crane was mobilised to move the McLaren back onto the track? I am not sure which drivers were told to depart from their cars, by whom, nor when. As it turned out, one of the cars even hit the crane.

AND I am satisfied that the entire operation was carried out in a less than safe manner. I would go as far as to say that the safety of the Marshalls were put at risk.

I agree with everything you have written. The funny thing is that no official word has come from the FIA on this. Maybe they can only handle one thing at a time???? ;)

[Valve Bounce]

I agree with everything you have written. The funny thing is that no official word has come from the FIA on this. Maybe they can only handle one thing at a time???? ;)

It just goes to show the FIA doesn't give a shyte what I say. :(

[wmcot]

It just goes to show the FIA doesn't give a shyte what I say. :(

At least you're in good company - they feel the same about millions of F1 fans!!!

[Ranger]

At least you're in good company - they feel the same about millions of F1 fans!!!
Sometimes I think is quite the opposite. They often bypass justice for the good of the fans alone.

(Money's another matter, but you get the picture)

[cosmicpanda]

K!!, lets look at this from a management perspective. First of all, we have the on site Marshalls, and it is they who will control the operation. If there are cars likely to come off, then OK, let the drivers remain in their cars with the engines switched off, until such time as the Marshalls have information that the race has been red flagged, cars have been instructed to slow right down to a crawl, and they can then make their way out to the cars in a safe manner.

In this particular case, the Marshalls were out there when cars were still coming off left, right and centre, and to make it less safe, a crane was mobilised to move the McLaren back onto the track? I am not sure which drivers were told to depart from their cars, by whom, nor when. As it turned out, one of the cars even hit the crane.

AND I am satisfied that the entire operation was carried out in a less than safe manner. I would go as far as to say that the safety of the Marshalls were put at risk.

I would agree with you there. But is it just me, or do the drivers tend to decide when they get out of the car themselves? I remember Mark Webber in the Williams last year at the Hungaroring radioing the team from the car while suspended from a crane.

[Ranger]

I would agree with you there. But is it just me, or do the drivers tend to decide when they get out of the car themselves? I remember Mark Webber in the Williams last year at the Hungaroring radioing the team from the car while suspended from a crane.
That was Nico. Why wasn't he put back on track?? :p :

[Sleeper]

^The car was busted.

Autosport are reporting today that the FIA have decided to ban the practice of using the tractor to get a vehicle out of the kitty litter. It seems that their main worry is that it could open up the way to marshels showing favouritism to certain drivers when their is more than one car in the gravel, also, their is the fact that its turning it into a bit of a Playstation game, you go off and get someone to put you back on the track. However, a car in a dangerous position that can still be pushed back onto the track easily (like what happened to Michael Schumacker in '03) will still be allowed.

[wmcot]

^The car was busted.

Autosport are reporting today that the FIA have decided to ban the practice of using the tractor to get a vehicle out of the kitty litter. It seems that their main worry is that it could open up the way to marshels showing favouritism to certain drivers when their is more than one car in the gravel, also, their is the fact that its turning it into a bit of a Playstation game, you go off and get someone to put you back on the track. However, a car in a dangerous position that can still be pushed back onto the track easily (like what happened to Michael Schumacker in '03) will still be allowed.

Wow, I'm glad they clarified the situation and used some common sense in their decision. Chalk up one point for the FIA!

[Valve Bounce]

I think that any procedure that will be worked out should be primarily on safety grounds and the favouritism will only be secondary to the safety considerations.

[leopard]

That's a progress we would see they amend to regulation banning tractor taken into action for in accident drivers continue the race.

However tractor is needed if they have made it clear not to continue the race, as carrying that way is the most convenience to spoil the kitty

[Mikeall]

Can't be bothered to read all the posts (sorry :) ) , but Hamilton stayed in his car kept the engine running so there's nothing stopping him continuing. He did lose a lap in the gravel but a BMW pitted when the race restarted putting himself behind Hamilton. As Hamilton was between two drivers on the lead lap he was allowed to overtake the field and the safety car, to get out of the way.

[wmcot]

Can't be bothered to read all the posts (sorry :) ) , but Hamilton stayed in his car kept the engine running so there's nothing stopping him continuing. He did lose a lap in the gravel but a BMW pitted when the race restarted putting himself behind Hamilton. As Hamilton was between two drivers on the lead lap he was allowed to overtake the field and the safety car, to get out of the way.

Try reading all the posts - it's all been covered and the FIA have instructed the court marshals on the correct procedures.

[Schnell]

[quote="Sleeper"]^The car was busted.

Autosport are reporting today that the FIA have decided to ban the practice of using the tractor to get a vehicle out of the kitty litter. It seems that their main worry is that it could open up the way to marshels showing favouritism to certain drivers when their is more than one car in the gravel. QUOTE]


Oh No! Heavens above! We can't have favouritisum! That would never do! That just wouldn't be sporting! Cough, splutter!

[Sleeper]

^The car was busted.

Autosport are reporting today that the FIA have decided to ban the practice of using the tractor to get a vehicle out of the kitty litter. It seems that their main worry is that it could open up the way to marshels showing favouritism to certain drivers when their is more than one car in the gravel. QUOTE]


Oh No! Heavens above! We can't have favouritisum! That would never do! That just wouldn't be sporting! Cough, splutter!
Well, its happened before and they dontr want a return to marshaling of the 70's.

I would have thought safety concerns would have been involved, but since the marshals would have been working on clearing the cars from the gravel trap anyway, they'e still at the normal level of risk, whatever that is.

[jso1985]

so the FIA have once again contradicted themselves??

If it's already on the sport regulations that the crane will only enter the track once the driver have made clear he/she will not continue.

and now the ban something is already banned?

[Valve Bounce]

Can't be bothered to read all the posts (sorry :) ) , but Hamilton stayed in his car kept the engine running so there's nothing stopping him continuing. .

It's a miracle that you even bothered to post this nonsense then!

[Valve Bounce]

"At todays drivers briefing all the drivers and team managers complained about LH's car being craned back into the race. It was decreaed that, that would never be allowed to happen again in a race."

Sorry, no links are available.

[wmcot]

and now the ban something is already banned?

That's because even the FIA can't follow their rules. Maybe the FIA will appeal the FIA's ruling and find themselves guilty, but with no punishment! :)