Alonso and Massa

[Mickers]

Hey did you all see the "words" that were shared between Alonso and Massa right after the race? All in Spanish of course, anybody have the translation or link????

[donKey jote]

close, it was Italian ! :p :

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formula1/Primo_Piano/2007/07_Luglio/22/parlato%20alonso_massa.shtml

apparently alonso thought massa had made contact deliberately :)

[Mickers]

oops...LOL...okay italian....translation anyone??? It looked pretty intense....

[race aficionado]

#!**@%!!!!!! or something like that.

[donKey jote]

I don't have the literal translation, but I heard it was along the lines:

hey why you toucha my car

you tooka my race, what more you want

your mama

yours more

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[markabilly]

:s mokin:
I don't have the literal translation, but I heard it was along the lines:

hey why you toucha my car

you tooka my race, what more you want

your mama

yours more

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[leopard]

Alonso said, let me teach you the right way driving a wet race

[pino]

#!**@%!!!!!! or something like that.

You should be able to understand, italian is very similar to spanish ;) anyway here's the comments (in italian again) :p : after those words : http://www.skylife.it/html/skylife/sport/video_sport.html?video=0

[jazzwolf]

Tranlation to spanish...
http://www.as.com/articulo/motor/Massa/provoco/Alonso/gravisimos/insultos/dasmot/20070723dasdaimot_3/Tes/

Enjoy

[Donney]

Alonso said, let me teach you the right way driving a wet race

Not that it matters but I think he said something like: You have to learn drving a wet race.

Anyway it wasn't nice from any of them.

[tinchote]

Tranlation to spanish...
http://www.as.com/articulo/motor/Massa/provoco/Alonso/gravisimos/insultos/dasmot/20070723dasdaimot_3/Tes/

Enjoy

I guess this is typical "Spanish objectivity" when talking about Alonso: the title says "Massa attacked Alonso with very serious insults", and then the article says that Alonso apologized to Massa :mark:

[F1MAN2007]

In brief :

Alonso started saying to Massa: “you tried to push me out like you did in Barcelona, these are not correct manners”.

Mass answered that “if it was to restart the race, I would do the same thing”.

But later, Massa defended himself by saying that he had not done it deliberately, that he is not that kind of person

[Mark]

Hey did you all see the "words" that were shared between Alonso and Massa right after the race? All in Spanish of course, anybody have the translation or link????

Of course? Massa is Brazilian isn't he? They would talk a completely different native language to each other, if they had one common language my first guess would be English, but Pino has said it was Italian.

[leopard]

It is preferably to insult someone using language they didn't know each other

[F1MAN2007]

Of course? Massa is Brazilian isn't he? They would talk a completely different native language to each other, if they had one common language my first guess would be English, but Pino has said it was Italian.

I think Pino is right?

Here is the link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpt0s_A6e24&NR=1

[tinchote]

Of course? Massa is Brazilian isn't he? They would talk a completely different native language to each other, if they had one common language my first guess would be English, but Pino has said it was Italian.

A Spanish and a Brazilian can talk each in their native language and still basically understand each other.

[F1MAN2007]

All started here, but yesterday Massa did a wrong calculation and missed the first step on podium!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4QcRUNr_gY&mode=related&search=

[ioan]

All started here, but yesterday Massa did a wrong calculation and missed the first step on podium!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4QcRUNr_gY&mode=related&search=

Please do not post links to that bonehead move. Even knowing how it ends I almost believed that FA will take KR and NH with him this time. :D

[F1MAN2007]

Just to show that it is not the first time Massa did that. In the following link, in Hungaroring GP 2006, he did the same manoeuvre touching Alonso's car when Alonso was overtaking him and it was raining again. So the guy is a little bit unprofessional

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8xD9ug55WQ&mode=related&search=

[ioan]

Just to show that it is not the first time Massa did that. In the following link, in Hungaroring GP 2006, he did the same manoeuvre touching Alonso's car when Alonso was overtaking him and it was raining again. So the guy is a little bit unprofessional

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8xD9ug55WQ&mode=related&search=

They didn't even touch!
This begs the question: And your point was? :rolleyes:

[Ninse]

Alonso: "You broke my sidepod there..., go and have a look at it!"
Massa: "Go F**k yourself! You've won and you say something like this, assh**e, you win and say something like this."
Alonso: "I fought with Heidfeld, i fought with everyone, but you can't do that."
Massa: (Touching Alonso) "Try to learn something"
Alonso: "You try to learn something"
Massa: "Try to learn something!"
Alonso: "Try to learn something, i fought with all the world today, and with 3 laps to go, we touch!"
Massa: (sitting on his chair) "Good job!"
Alonso: "Good job!"
Massa: (Standing up, sarcastic tone) "I did that on purpose, like i did that on porpuse in Barcelona!"
Alonso: "Ok, ok..."
Massa: (Touching Alonso) "Try to learn something"
Massa: (Looking to someone who invite him to relax) "That's him!"

I think that esencially this is the chat AlonsoVSMassa!!! it´s posible that here not to be all the words!!!.

In my humble opinion, Alonso have not any reason to make this declarations!!!!

[F1MAN2007]

They didn't even touch!
This begs the question: And your point was? :rolleyes:

Massa is used on that business of touching and pushing others outside. :D

[pino]

A Spanish and a Brazilian can talk each in their native language and still basically understand each other.

Yes but as both Alonso and Massa speaks perfectly italian... Anyway here's the translation :

Coglione (can't translate that) :p : piss off , you win and you are saying such a thing ?, coglione... Try to learn amico... - Massa

You can't do that...You try to learn - Alonso

I had to fight against the whole world and we are going to hit eachothers with 3 laps left? ... well done - Alonso

Yes I did that deliberatly as I did in the 1st race in Barcellona right ? try to learn... -Massa

[ioan]

Massa is used on that business of touching and pushing others outside. :D

Than find a proof for that cause in the vid you linked to there was no touching at all. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Coglione (can't translate that) :p : piss off , you win and you are saying such a thing ?, coglione... Try to learn amico... - Massa

No need for translation, Felipe was more than right! :D

[ShiftingGears]

I didn't see anything dirty in that pass at all from either drivers! They banged wheels...and sometimes that happens when they're actually RACING! Can't please everyone can you? :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

Alonso:
"We touched each other two times (on the track) and I apologise to him because I was so stressed when I finished the race, because we nearly didn't finish the race. I apologise if I said anything to him, because it's motor racing and it's a fight."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61077

[F1MAN2007]

Than find a proof for that cause in the vid you linked to there was no touching at all. :rolleyes:

maybe you need to use the magnifying glass to see that, otherwise it is clear for me. :D

[OTA]

You are telling me that after getting touch at 200km/h, putting your life and you race in danger you do not have the right to address the person who has touch you, that's just insane.

First of all, my opinion is that while it's a racing incident and obviously nothing should be done to either, it is clear that Massa was the loser of the battle, and it is also clear that those tyre marks in Alonso's car where from Massa.
In the discussion after that Alonso seemed to hold his posture a bit more and did not need to restore to insults to settle it. Indeed he apologized the minute after that in the press conference. And Felipe will probably have the same face, because what really hurt him was not the words Alonso told him, but the fact that they were true.

Cheers
David

[F1MAN2007]

It seems that some people here never accept the mistakes done by their monkeys heroes?!!

[ioan]

First of all, my opinion is that while it's a racing incident and obviously nothing should be done to either, it is clear that Massa was the loser of the battle, and it is also clear that those tyre marks in Alonso's car where from Massa.

I propose that the FIA make a new rule, the one that says that no car can come closer than 10 meters to Alonso's car, because otherwise he gets in hysterical mode as seen several times already.
What do you think? I bet you would appreciate it! :rolleyes:

[gm99]

I propose that the FIA make a new rule, the one that says that no car can come closer than 10 meters to Alonso's car, because otherwise he gets in hysterical mode as seen several times already.
What do you think? I bet you would appreciate it! :rolleyes:

Well, that should suit Ferrari just fine - if you remember the "hysterical mode" (your words, not mine) that Massa went into when he came close (though not closer than 10 meters) to Alonso in Monza qualifying last season.

[F1MAN2007]

I propose that the FIA make a new rule, the one that says that no car can come closer than 10 meters to Alonso's car, because otherwise he gets in hysterical mode as seen several times already.
What do you think? I bet you would appreciate it! :rolleyes:


And no car to block or in sight of Massa. That would be another one interesting for you as well. :D

Just to enforce the rule they followed in Monza 2006. ;)

[Donney]

I propose that the FIA make a new rule, the one that says that no car can come closer than 10 meters to Alonso's car, because otherwise he gets in hysterical mode as seen several times already.
What do you think? I bet you would appreciate it! :rolleyes:

I think you didn't like yesterday's result.

[ioan]

And no car to block or in sight of Massa. That would be another one interesting for you as well. :D

Just to enforce the rule they followed in Monza 2006. ;)

I'm not saying Felipe is a saint, but he's not a prick like Alonso either.

[ioan]

I think you didn't like yesterday's result.

I was happy that Felipe got 8th points rather than none.
Can't say the same about a certain Spaniard who wasn't happy with the 1st place either. :p :

[F1MAN2007]

I'm not saying Felipe is a saint, but he's not a prick like Alonso either.

:up: Fine if you agree that Massa is not a saint.

[ioan]

:up: Fine if you agree that Massa is not a saint.

He wouldn't be a competitive F1 driver otherwise.

[andreag]

Can't say the same about a certain Spaniard who wasn't happy with the 1st place either. :p :
He looked very happy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvre8Umf6Xs

[ioan]

He looked very happy:

What need to attack Felipe than?

[F1MAN2007]

He wouldn't be a competitive F1 driver otherwise.


It is good coming from you and you acknowledge this.

[andreag]

He didn't attack him; whatch it carefully (I'm sure you can understand most of they say). First Alonso's words are quiet and calm.

Then Massa start moaning with "Va cagare", "coglioni", and so on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNwHi_rWYZg

[cafenul]

That's race guys, you cannot debate anything about that ! its better when there are fights like that !

[V12]

I thought if anything it was Alonso who banged wheels with Massa and not the other way round, but given I was halfway between the edge of my seat and jumping off it when it happened, I may have been wrong in the heat of the moment


Of course? Massa is Brazilian isn't he? They would talk a completely different native language to each other, if they had one common language my first guess would be English, but Pino has said it was Italian.

I think Massa's parents are Italian which would explain that even though his first language is Portuguese, not sure where Alonso knows the language from though, maybe he's just a good linguist :P

[F1MAN2007]

....., not sure where Alonso knows the language from though, maybe he's just a good linguist :P

I thaught he drove in the past for an Italian team? Where he learned the language.

[GRAVETT]

i only saw hard racing , i didnt see alonso drive dangerously and i didnt see massa drive dangerously either. what i saw was a fantastically fought battle between 2 real racers. yes there was contact but if you know anything about car dynamics you will see that yes it was massas car that hit alonso but it was because he could not help it, the car understeered into the mclaren and massa was trying to hold the car back from this, you can see as the ferrari regained its front end grip that massa pulled to the left to avoid further contact.
that was fine clean racing, nothing wrong with any of it. as for the argument, that was pure adrenalin and 2 men high on emotion, 1 for winning and 1 for losing in the last few laps.

[Flat.tyres]

i only saw hard racing , i didnt see alonso drive dangerously and i didnt see massa drive dangerously either. what i saw was a fantastically fought battle between 2 real racers. yes there was contact but if you know anything about car dynamics you will see that yes it was massas car that hit alonso but it was because he could not help it, the car understeered into the mclaren and massa was trying to hold the car back from this, you can see as the ferrari regained its front end grip that massa pulled to the left to avoid further contact.
that was fine clean racing, nothing wrong with any of it. as for the argument, that was pure adrenalin and 2 men high on emotion, 1 for winning and 1 for losing in the last few laps.

thats pretty much how I saw it. I think that Massa could have held it a bit tighter but probably he wanted FA to know he'll not be a pushover and watch it sunshine.

[GRAVETT]

exactly !! it was just hard racing. it seems alot of people have to over analyse things

[Donney]

i only saw hard racing , i didnt see alonso drive dangerously and i didnt see massa drive dangerously either. what i saw was a fantastically fought battle between 2 real racers. yes there was contact but if you know anything about car dynamics you will see that yes it was massas car that hit alonso but it was because he could not help it, the car understeered into the mclaren and massa was trying to hold the car back from this, you can see as the ferrari regained its front end grip that massa pulled to the left to avoid further contact.
that was fine clean racing, nothing wrong with any of it. as for the argument, that was pure adrenalin and 2 men high on emotion, 1 for winning and 1 for losing in the last few laps.

:up:

[Flat.tyres]

exactly !! it was just hard racing. it seems alot of people have to over analyse things

incidentally, I have a slightly different take on the Ralf / Hiedfeld issue.

my recollection is that Ralf knew that Nick was behind him and made a slight mistake exiting one of the corners.

Nick was on it quick and dove up the inside for the next corner. he wasn't just putting his nose in but was interlocking wheels when Ralf turned in.

I think Nick had every right to stuff it up the inside and if anything, Ralf should have known he was likely to try it and been prepared to make room. yet, some people here have claimed this is Nicks fault where I just cannot see it? I would say 60/40 against Ralf but a raing incident anyway.

what do you think?

[GRAVETT]

i agree totally, it was another racing accident, heidfeld went in a bit too hot, but ralf new he was there and coming up the inside, he admitted so in his interview on itv, but didnt give anyroom to avoid a collision. the 60/40 spilt against ralf is spot on. everyone knows ralf is a pretty poor racer he has had more contact than most and hiedfeld is pretty hard but clean. if blame has to be laid anywhere then i feel its on schumachers doorstep not heidfelds

[markabilly]

Forget which year, but he crowds in on ralf Schumi (who had some sort of problem and was going slow) as they come out of tunnel and suddenly FA is going backward into the guardrail at 100mph plus

The in-car camera shows FA takes his hands off the stering wheel to give Ralfie the one finger with both hands, grabs the wheel and begins steerring the car almost to where he avoids the crash with the guardrail.

In USA, they showed the incident twice, then stopped after David Hobbs remarked about how remarkably fast fingers that FA had, to salute ralfie then almost regain control going backward after getting a m
"massive bump off poor rold ralfie".

Might have succeeded but it think the car was already too badly damaged by the contasct with RS to have made any difference.

After that, I became a fan of FA--got to give a hand or finger to a man who can do all that in micro seconds while going backward.... :mad: :s mokin:

[F1MAN2007]

Forget which year, but he crowds in on ralf Schumi (who had some sort of problem and was going slow) as they come out of tunnel and suddenly FA is going backward into the guardrail at 100mph plus

The in-car camera shows FA takes his hands off the stering wheel to give Ralfie the one finger with both hands, grabs the wheel and begins steerring the car almost to where he avoids the crash with the guardrail.

In USA, they showed the incident twice, then stopped after David Hobbs remarked about how remarkably fast fingers that FA had, to salute ralfie then almost regain control going backward after getting a m
"massive bump off poor rold ralfie".

Might have succeeded but it think the car was already too badly damaged by the contasct with RS to have made any difference.

After that, I became a fan of FA--got to give a hand or finger to a man who can do all that in micro seconds while going backward.... :mad: :s mokin:


It was Monaco 2004

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRv9iOIvu5Y&mode=related&search=

[donKey jote]

not sure where Alonso knows the language from though
He did time at Minardi ;)

Here's the clash again, with Spanish subtitles :p :

I don't know what Alonso said to him beforehand, but in my view it was Massa who was behaving more like a "prick" here (to quote ioan :dozey: ) )

http://www.elpais.com/videos/deportes/Bronca/Alonso/Massa/elpepudep/20070723elpepudep_2/Ves/

Anyway who cares, Alonso once again proved he's the rain master :D
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[OTA]

Ioan
I think Alonso has given more than enought proof that he can pass in almost every place with much less space than 10m without kissing his mates. May be it's Felipe who should hold the stearing a bit harder.

Cheers
David

[Hendersen]

Alonso may be the best F-1 driver right now, but damn does that guy constantly complain.

[F1MAN2007]

Massa is always moaning!!!

Alonso proved once more why he is a WDC.

[V12]

Totally forgot about his 2001 at Minardi there! I still think the collision was 50/50 at best though. Might search YouTube in a bit...

[Big Ben]

I propose that the FIA make a new rule, the one that says that no car can come closer than 10 meters to Alonso's car, because otherwise he gets in hysterical mode as seen several times already.
What do you think? I bet you would appreciate it! :rolleyes:

oh... the irony... great proposal

I could see again the difference between a good and a great driver. I hope you enjoyed the race. It was just great. Maybe everything will be undone on Thursday but nonetheless FA will be remembered for this one.

How can one say Massa is the good guy here? He was at fault and he´s the one who starts the dirty talking. I hate this type of fights but I think FM should be told he should mind the others drivers too... He was losing a position here and in Spain and in both cases he "did a race incident"... I don´t think he did it on purpose. I think it´s just poor driving

[samuratt]

I think that Fernando has his right to complain because everytime he tries to pass Massa, both touch. And in F1, cars shouldn't touch. If you like this kind of races go nascar or touring cars. Above all, fernando this year has offered plenty of overtaking, and nobody has hitted him once but Massa (twice this year, form two overtakings).

Anyway I don't think Massa did it on purpose, he lost control of the car for a bit and slide onto Fernando's. Nothing wrong here but a very strong and nice fight.

Massa's reaction, altough aggresive, is easy to understand. Nobody wants to loose!

i think that rather to complain, what Alonso was trying to say to massa was: "it doesn't matter if you try to push me out, i will pass!"

[F1MAN2007]

let 'us not talk about touching.

10 laps to the end, Alonso was tariling Massa for more than 8 secs and no one could imagine how Alonso can reduce the gap. Even himself he said that in that time he was pleased with 2nd place as long as Lewis and Kimmi were out.

But from 7 lap to the end, Alonso was reducing the gap and Massa was loosing the ground and strugling with the car. This happened before they go in pit line for intermediare tyres. They entered the pit line and the gap was reduced to 4 secs and something. 1 lap and half after the pit, the gap was 1 sec and already Alonso were completly in the rear wing of Massa and it is where they kissed for the first time before Alonso took that spectacular move and passed Massa.

For my point of view, if any driver can reduce the gap from 8 secs to 1 sec even below that, it means the driver in front should give a way and not try to block him by all the means he can. Particuraly when it is clear that the driver behind you is quicker than you.

So Massa was desperate and couldn't imagine what is happening to him and that is why he drove like a rookie. Even the rookie this time are better than him. Like Samuratt said above, I can't understand why in all overtaking done by Alonso so far this season, is only Massa who touched his car for 2 times?
I bet, next time both will be out.

And another thing is that the FIA stay silent in such manoeuvres which are semeed to be allowed. But here I recall Alonso and Heidfeld, Alonso and Lewis in USA and Kubica and Heidfeld in Germany and others.

[raphael123]

I was happy that Felipe got 8th points rather than none.
Can't say the same about a certain Spaniard who wasn't happy with the 1st place either. :p :

If the guy on the top step of the podium was someone who wasn't happy, I'd be interested to see what he's like when he's happy!

Massa didn't look very happy. He even said 2nd place left him a bitter taste.

So, lets look at it, Alonso was all smiles, jumping with joy, Massa hardly smiled, said he wasn't happy, yet somehow you've managed to come to the conclusion that Felipe was happy and Alonso was unhappy! Talk about tinted red glasses!

[raphael123]

As for the arguement which followed, it seemed logical to me that Alonso would mention them two touching, which Massa reacted with foul language and aggressive behaviour. How anyone can critizise Alonso for simply mentioning it but not Massa is beyond me.

I didn't see anything wrong in the move in the sence that it was a racing incident, though Massa shouldn't really have banged Alonso's side, and as has been pointed out, twice Alonso has gone to overtake Massa, both times getting alongside MAssa, and twice Massa hasn't given Alonso enough room. The first time it worked as Alonso went onto the grass, the second time he didn't and just damaged his car instead.

My understanding is if you are alongside the other guy, it's to be expected that your rival should give you enough room (a car's width) - so far, both times Massa has simply turned into Alonso, which isn't really correct.

Anyone think differently?

[Sergio-Rallymax]

I guess this is typical "Spanish objectivity" when talking about Alonso: the title says "Massa attacked Alonso with very serious insults", and then the article says that Alonso apologized to Massa :mark:

I do not know for that you are surprised, we all know that in Spain the major gutter press is... These of 2003 for behind were thinking that the followers of the F1 were frikies, now the Spanish press they are more fanatical than the own fans.

[ioan]

i think that rather to complain, what Alonso was trying to say to massa was: "it doesn't matter if you try to push me out, i will pass!"

Sure, that's why he had to apologize publicly when he realized how stupid he was! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

For my point of view, if any driver can reduce the gap from 8 secs to 1 sec even below that, it means the driver in front should give a way and not try to block him by all the means he can. Particuraly when it is clear that the driver behind you is quicker than you.

That's what Alonso did in Imola in 2005? Oh no it isn't! Why didn't he? Because this is watching racing not ballet, that's why! :rolleyes:

I can't even believe you posted such thing in a racing forum! :eek:

[ioan]

If the guy on the top step of the podium was someone who wasn't happy, I'd be interested to see what he's like when he's happy!

Massa didn't look very happy. He even said 2nd place left him a bitter taste.

So, lets look at it, Alonso was all smiles, jumping with joy, Massa hardly smiled, said he wasn't happy, yet somehow you've managed to come to the conclusion that Felipe was happy and Alonso was unhappy! Talk about tinted red glasses!


As for the arguement which followed, it seemed logical to me that Alonso would mention them two touching...

The argument was before the podium ceremony.
And Alonso apologized in the post race press conference for his verbal attack. That means he acknowledged that we was wrong to blame him.
And you talk about tinted glasses?! :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

Things are said in the heat of the moment all the time. This time cameras were there to record it, sometimes they're not. Alonso has apologised, Massa has accepted the apology. End of.

[janneppi]

The argument was before the podium ceremony.
And Alonso apologized in the post race press conference for his verbal attack. That means he acknowledged that we was wrong to blame him.
And you talk about tinted glasses?! :rolleyes:
Alonso was man enough to say sorry, it seems Massa isn't.
and Alonso apologised for the wording, not for the subject, so no admission of wrongly accusing Massa there.

[ioan]

Alonso was man enough to say sorry, it seems Massa isn't.
and Alonso apologised for the wording, not for the subject, so no admission of wrongly accusing Massa there.

Are you unhappy that Kimi "BreakemAll" Räikkönen broke another car and Massa didn't?! :p :

[janneppi]

I'm unhappy that Ferrari can't build a car that doesn't break every other GP, but I wouldn't wish other drivers suffering Mechanical problems at this stage, maybe it's just you reflecting your own wishes onto others?

Besides, what does that have to do with Massa acting like a little child and not take responsibility what he says and does?

[ioan]

I'm unhappy that Ferrari can't build a car that doesn't break every other GP, but I wouldn't wish other drivers suffering Mechanical problems at this stage, maybe it's just you reflecting your own wishes onto others?

Besides, what does that have to do with Massa acting like a little child and not take responsibility what he says and does?

Might be the fact that Felipe didn't have mechanical failures for a long time? You can't stop talking rubbish about him because he is doing better than Kimi, that's as clear as possible. :D

[F1MAN2007]

Sure, that's why he had to apologize publicly when he realized how stupid he was! :rolleyes:

Apologising doesn't mean that you are stupid man, come on? :rolleyes:

But apologising is a courage and I am sure Alonso found that it was not necessary to argue with such kind of little boy who always moaning instead of showing actions and losing the race every time he is heading to victory? :down:

Even following the way he has been behaving in weighing room, it showed who he is?

[ioan]

Apologising doesn't mean that you are stupid man, come on? :rolleyes:

But apologising is a courage and I am sure Alonso found that it was not necessary to argue with such kind of driver who always moaning instead of showing actions and losing the race every time he is heading to victory? :down:

Even following the way he has been behaving in weighing room, it showed who he is?

I can't decide which one is worse Hamilton or Alonso fanboyism! :rolleyes:

[Donney]

Don't forget Massaism which is not doing you any good. :rolleyes:

[F1MAN2007]

I can't decide which one is worse Hamilton or Alonso fanboyism! :rolleyes:

They say : " IF YOU CAN'T WIN THEM, YOU JOIN THEM" :D

Alonso is 2 times WDC and youngest to win a WDC (Record)
Hamiliton has 9 podiums in his 10 races started so far (record as a rookie)

So what has got Massa as a record?! :eek:

[janneppi]

Might be the fact that Felipe didn't have mechanical failures for a long time? You can't stop talking rubbish about him because he is doing better than Kimi, that's as clear as possible. :D
So it was Massa who screwed up in Silverstone start instead of the car stalling?
Good to know.

Again, what does that have to do with Massa being childish towards Alonso?

[555-04Q2]

I'm unhappy that Ferrari can't build a car that doesn't break every other GP, but I wouldn't wish other drivers suffering Mechanical problems at this stage, maybe it's just you reflecting your own wishes onto others?

Besides, what does that have to do with Massa acting like a little child and not take responsibility what he says and does?

With all due respect. While Kimi was at Mclaren, their reliability record was terrible and Ferrari's was brilliant. Now the rolls have reversed and guess who drives for Ferrari now and no longer drives for Mclaren. Coincidence :?:

[janneppi]

With all due respect. While Kimi was at Mclaren, their reliability record was terrible and Ferrari's was brilliant. Now the rolls have reversed and guess who drives for Ferrari now and no longer drives for Mclaren. Coincidence :?:
Without dragging the discussion more off topic, Most likely a coincidence. Or can you really establish a trend after two DNF and few races?

[SGWilko]

With all due respect. While Kimi was at Mclaren, their reliability record was terrible and Ferrari's was brilliant. Now the rolls have reversed and guess who drives for Ferrari now and no longer drives for Mclaren. Coincidence :?:

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of a certain N Stepney's role within Ferrari prior to MS leaving, is that he was a contributory factor to the development of an ethos that meant quality control and an attention to the minutae of the manufacturing & construction process resulted in Ferrari's legendary reliability.

It is not Kimi that is causing the car to break, it is that Ferrari were so short sighted to sack the one remaining guy that did the team any good.

I tell you, that team will self destruct and become the useless joke that they were in the late eighties/early nineties - you can see it has already begun.

[Flat.tyres]

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of a certain N Stepney's role within Ferrari prior to MS leaving, is that he was a contributory factor to the development of an ethos that meant quality control and an attention to the minutae of the manufacturing & construction process resulted in Ferrari's legendary reliability.

It is not Kimi that is causing the car to break, it is that Ferrari were so short sighted to sack the one remaining guy that did the team any good.

I tell you, that team will self destruct and become the useless joke that they were in the late eighties/early nineties - you can see it has already begun.

I hate to agree with you on this one but Ferrari does seem to be on one of their imploding phases at the moment. they still have the potential to change it but from what Ive heard, the positive, constructive culture of excellence and self belief is rapidly being replaced by paranoia and a blame culture. they are wound up like a spring and people are watching their backs instead of looking forward.

[jas123f1]

Why not only congratulate Alonso for his brilliant race?

Honestly - Massa had nothing to put against Alonso this time, it was only a question of time even if Massa was driving very defensive and really trying to keep Alonso behind him. When it’s a question of a wet race Alonso is a much better driver of them two. I think sometimes we must admit the facts (although it may be difficult for some people).

OK i understand also very well why Massa was that disappointed after leading the race only 5 laps left and then lose everything in that way, it must be hard to accept. However it was absolutely unnecessary to try to close the door that late - I’m sorry to say this but Massa doesn’t look as a world champion to me (even if i can say that he is a good driver), but there is too much instability, it's not enough to drive good races from pole and without any disturbing traffic. I think he even speaks too much b*** s***, it gives only a feeling that he is out of balance (too often), it’s not enough to play nice in the sunshine. I must say he makes me a bit disappointed with his behaviours.. My tip is that Alonso or Kimi will be the champion 2007, not Hamilton or Massa. (imo :) )

[ioan]

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of a certain N Stepney's role within Ferrari prior to MS leaving, is that he was a contributory factor to the development of an ethos that meant quality control and an attention to the minutae of the manufacturing & construction process resulted in Ferrari's legendary reliability.

I'll correct you. This is what Stepney had to do after MS left.

[Ian McC]

I see Massa is getting a hard time from the Italian press

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~151800.htm

[Ian McC]

I can't decide which one is worse Hamilton or Alonso fanboyism! :rolleyes:

Seems that most fans defend the driver they support, some a little too much, surely you can appreciate that? ;)

[jens]

I really enjoyed their battle. :) I hoped that clearly slower Massa can do "Senna-Monaco-1992" and keep Alonso behind him till the end. Although Felipe was struggling in the wet, he was driving very agressively and defensively and I enjoyed every bit of his racing. But his blocking didn't work forever and the inevitable had to happen. Massa and Alonso banged wheels for twice and it was surprising that neither of them had problems afterwards. But all credit to Alonso - an incredible drive at the end and he has proved once again, why he has won championships. Just a few races back it looked like he had lost it and Hamilton was going to win, but as it has turned out - never underestimate the Spaniard!

And the row between FA and FM... IMO it only adds spice to F1, so no complaining from me! ;)
Not surprising that tight title battle is heating up the nerves of guys from southern countries. :s mokin:

[Hendersen]

I-a am-a the-a great-a Alonso. I-a can-a pull-a out-a in front-a you-a, but you-a no-a pull-a out-a in-a front-a me-a. I can-a touch-a you-a car-a, but you-a can-a no-a touch-a me-a car-a. Capiche, Massa?

[donKey jote]

:dozey:

[race aficionado]

:dozey:


Donks . . . . tough crowd out there, huh?

They have kept you busy.

The way I see it, Fernando Alonso is showing why he is two times champion, the man that dethroned the MS King and the man that is proving to all why he has the crown in his possesion right now.

I am enjoying this F1 year even though my main man is not around to mix things up - and I am enjoying it because I am a fan of FA, Kimi, Massa and of course, the great spark and talent that is Lewis Hamilton.

There is still alot of bitterness out there coming from certain forum friends now that Michael is busy sabotaging Kimi - it's a joke already! :mad: :D - any way, I'm glad your man Fernado is up there causing trouble and establishing himself as a front runner.

pa' dentro y pa' delante!

:s mokin:

[donKey jote]

cheers race :wave:
I'm also enjoying this F1 year even though their main man isn't around to mix things up ( big boohoo ;) :p : ).

They have kept you busy.
Well I've done my fair share of stirring and gloating too :devil:
Now where have I put those dancing bananas ?
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[raphael123]

Sure, that's why he had to apologize publicly when he realized how stupid he was! :rolleyes:

He apologised for bringing it up - as has been pointed out, the fact he apologised showed he can admit his wrongs, it's just a shame Massa couldn't be man enough to do the same and apologise for his foul language and aggressive behaviour, neither of which Alonso showed. If either should have apologised, it should have been Massa.


That's what Alonso did in Imola in 2005? Oh no it isn't! Why didn't he? Because this is watching racing not ballet, that's why!

I can't even believe you posted such thing in a racing forum!

Spot on! I couldn't believe what that guy posted. Just because your 2sec a lap slower shouldn't mean you should just move over! Afterall, as Ioan correctly says, this is racing!


The argument was before the podium ceremony.
And Alonso apologized in the post race press conference for his verbal attack. That means he acknowledged that we was wrong to blame him.
And you talk about tinted glasses?!

I know the argument was before the podium ceremony. Alonsowas man enough to apologise for bringing it up, it's a shame Massa wasn't.
What's wrong with acknowledging he was wrong to blame Massa for the contact? Are you saying you'd have preferred he burried his head in the sand and refused to let it go? Like Massa bringing up Barcelona, or refusing to apologise for his behaviour?
As for tinted glasses, I was talking about you saying how Alonso was unhappy - when everyone else was commenting on having never seen him so joyous after a race victory!

[raphael123]

With all due respect. While Kimi was at Mclaren, their reliability record was terrible and Ferrari's was brilliant. Now the rolls have reversed and guess who drives for Ferrari now and no longer drives for Mclaren. Coincidence :?:

Sir, are you trying to tell us Kimi's driving style caused the hydraulics failure? Can you explain to me how a driver's driving style would result in that kind of failure? Or how did Kimi's driving style result in electronic failure in Spain?

Please....get real!

[leopard]

I am afraid of talking about driving style :( :)

The two Ferraris have the same aptitude for the car's failure, not for the tyres, although it has less influence to tyre's life and performance.
I was inclined to vote Ferrari could a bit easier win if there is driver exchange with Macaleren, but the result of the poll said No.

I think who asked for apologies first doesn't always mean acknowledge guilty, but those the big souls who want to apologize first.

I oftentimes said being wild, aggressive, felt like naughty was point of interest for Massa, no wonder if he has that behavior when they car was touching again at the track.
He should have won the race if there was no rain in the middle of the race which I have to acknowledge it was still the weakness.

[Storm]

No need for translation, Felipe was more than right!

Of course Massa was right...it was indeed Alonso who kicked his a$$ and won the race :D




I'm also enjoying this F1 year even though their main man isn't around to mix things up ( big boohoo ;) :p : ).



Well its even better I would say...the brow accepts the winner's trophy from him
:p :

[555-04Q2]

Sir, are you trying to tell us Kimi's driving style caused the hydraulics failure? Can you explain to me how a driver's driving style would result in that kind of failure? Or how did Kimi's driving style result in electronic failure in Spain?

Please....get real!

As I said, is it a coincidence :?: You decide for yourself. I am real and so is the evidence. Cars Kimi drives always seem to malfunction. That is a FACT. You get real now.

[Ranger]

As I said, is it a coincidence :?: You decide for yourself. I am real and so is the evidence. Cars Kimi drives always seem to malfunction. That is a FACT. You get real now.

From 2002-2006, Kimi's team-mates cars have fallen foul of reliability issues more than he has. That is also a fact.

Felipe has fallen foul of reliability issues already this season on race weekends, the same number of times that Kimi has. Fact. Although those sessions have been slightly more fortunate in timing.

Soon enough Felipe will fall foul of such issues during a race, when it will really count towards the end of the championship. Will Felipe then be dismissed as a "carbreaker" then who broke his way out of a championship? I think not. Though people will still associate car-breaking with his team-mate due to the image connotated with the number of years Kimi spent driving an unreliable car. :down:

[andreag]

From 2002-2006, Kimi's team-mates cars have fallen foul of reliability issues more than he has. That is also a fact.
I'm sorry, but this is not a fact.

From 2002-2006 Kimi's cars and teammate's cars retirements due to reliability issues (not collisions, accidents, black flags or massive USA '05 retirements), have been:

2002 17 races.
Kimi: 10. (59%).
Coulthard: 3. (18%).

2003 16 races.
Kimi: 1. (6%).
Coulthard: 4. (25%).

2004 18 races.
Kimi: 7. (39%).
Coulthard: 2. (11%).

2005 19 races.
Kimi: 3. (16%).
Montoya: 3. (16%). (Neither Wurz or de la Rosa retired that season).

2006 18 races.
Kimi: 2. (11%).
Montoya/de la Rosa: 4. (22%). (2 each).

TOTAL 2002-2006 88 races.
Kimi: 23. (26%).
Teammates: 16. (18%).

In 2007 Kimi has retired already twice, and to keep his average, he should do it again in another two races. If Felipe suffers 3 retirements in the next 7 races, he'll keep the average of teammates retirements; if not, the difference between kimi and his mates will increase.

This are facts.

[Ranger]

I'm sorry, but this is not a fact.

From 2002-2006 Kimi's cars and teammate's cars retirements due to reliability issues (not collisions, accidents, black flags or massive USA '05 retirements), have been:

2002 17 races.
Kimi: 10. (59%).
Coulthard: 3. (18%).

2003 16 races.
Kimi: 1. (6%).
Coulthard: 4. (25%).

2004 18 races.
Kimi: 7. (39%).
Coulthard: 2. (11%).

2005 19 races.
Kimi: 3. (16%).
Montoya: 3. (16%). (Neither Wurz or de la Rosa retired that season).

2006 18 races.
Kimi: 2. (11%).
Montoya/de la Rosa: 4. (22%). (2 each).

TOTAL 2002-2006 88 races.
Kimi: 23. (26%).
Teammates: 16. (18%).

In 2007 Kimi has retired already twice, and to keep his average, he should do it again in another two races. If Felipe suffers 3 retirements in the next 7 races, he'll keep the average of teammates retirements; if not, the difference between kimi and his mates will increase.

This are facts.

I'll check that Autosport article then... thats where I got those stats from.

[Flat.tyres]

As I said, is it a coincidence :?: You decide for yourself. I am real and so is the evidence. Cars Kimi drives always seem to malfunction. That is a FACT. You get real now.

its also a FACT that everyone that has ever masterbated has or will die. does this prove that having a Tommy Tank kills you?

its true that the way a driver handles the car can contribute to reliability issues but not to the extent of Kimi's reliability issues. Ive never considered his driving style that of a wrecker as say Sato used to be.

[555-04Q2]

Ive never considered his driving style that of a wrecker as say Sato used to be.

The difference is Sato crashes into solid objects like cars and walls :p :

I've always been of the opinion that Kimi overdrives cars and hence breaks them. That is my opinion, whether people think its right or wrong, though his reliability record seems to back me up at least a little bit.

BTW guys, this is supposed to a thread about Massa and Alonso so I'm off the Kimi topic for this thread now.

[janneppi]

I'm sorry, but this is not a fact.

From 2002-2006 Kimi's cars and teammate's cars retirements due to reliability issues (not collisions, accidents, black flags or massive USA '05 retirements), have been:

2002 17 races.
Kimi: 10. (59&#37 ;) .
Coulthard: 3. (18%).

2003 16 races.
Kimi: 1. (6%).
Coulthard: 4. (25%).

2004 18 races.
Kimi: 7. (39%).
Coulthard: 2. (11%).

2005 19 races.
Kimi: 3. (16%).
Montoya: 3. (16%). (Neither Wurz or de la Rosa retired that season).

2006 18 races.
Kimi: 2. (11%).
Montoya/de la Rosa: 4. (22%). (2 each).

TOTAL 2002-2006 88 races.
Kimi: 23. (26%).
Teammates: 16. (18%).

In 2007 Kimi has retired already twice, and to keep his average, he should do it again in another two races. If Felipe suffers 3 retirements in the next 7 races, he'll keep the average of teammates retirements; if not, the difference between kimi and his mates will increase.

This are facts.
If we were to take these figures without looking into them, you'd think there are two Kimis
The one that drove 2003, 2005 and 2006, and the one who drove 2002 and 2004.
Saying Kimi breaks the car is one thing, explaining why out the last full five seasons he's had three seasons where he had less problems than his team mates and still saying he breaks the car more often than his team mate is another.

2007 figures are also bit mis-leading, Massa has had two mechanical problems that were present before the race(one if you believe he stalled the car by accident at Silverstone)

[jens]

Here was a question that how can Kimi break hydraulics or electronics with driving style.

Well, we may take another approach. As Kimi is not very interested in the technical side of F1 nor isn't a top car developer, then he doesn't put as much emphasis on preparing the car for the race as do the rivals, which results in having more unreliable cars.

[janneppi]

Jens, can you name even one driver who participates at all in the desing and manufacturing or assembly of every component in the car?

I didn't know Massa or Alonso spend their race weekends building race cars on behalf of their engineers. ;)

[F1MAN2007]

Here was a question that how can Kimi break hydraulics or electonics with driving style.

Well, we may take another approach. As Kimi is not very interested in the technical side of F1 nor isn't a top car developer, then he doesn't put as much emphasis on preparing the car for the race as do the rivals, which results in having more unreliable cars.

intend to agree with that. Apart from the mechanical problems, it took a little bit time to set up a car convenient to his driving style, but now he has found the best set up which suit him and then the reliability issue doesn't want to help him.

[F1MAN2007]

Jens, can you name even one driver who participates at all in the desing and manufacturing or assembly of every component in the car?

I didn't know Massa or Alonso spend their race weekends building race cars on behalf of their engineers. ;)


I think Alonso, Massa and Lewis (and I am sure for Lewis and Alonso) spend a lot of time with their engineers in their free time and talk to them what they think can be changed or improved on the car. Drivers learn from engineers and engineers learn from drivers. Otherwise I can't see any need of test and practice session before any race?! :eek:

It would be like saying, engineers design and build the cars and give them to drivers on sunday to race whatever the drivers may like or not like as long you seem to say drivers don't have any input in design, construction or assembling the car.

Today, one of the things Ferrari is missing, is the strong feedback from MS and a part of their reliability issue is down to their lack of MS and Ross Brawn.

Last year, Ferrari was on top with MS and Mclaren was down because of their lack of reliability. And today it is the reverse?! Mclaren seems to be more reliable than Ferrari. Mclaren benefiting from Alonso and Ferrari missing MS. Following this, I hope drivers are very important as well in building up a competitive and reliable car.

[janneppi]

I think Alonso, Massa and Lewis (and I am sure for Lewis and Alonso) spend a lot of time with their engineers in their free time and talk to them what they think can be changed or improved on the car. Drivers learn from engineers and engineers learn from drivers. Otherwise I can't see any need of test and practice session before any race?! :eek:

It would be like saying, engineers design and build the cars and give them to drivers on sunday to race whatever the drivers may like or not like as long you seem to say drivers don't have any input in design, construction or assembling the car.
.
I'm saying drivers aren't needed to give input on single components, can you give any reason for Alonso (for example) demanding a slightly different flow charasteristics of a servovalve used to control some actuator?
A driver can only really give input on what he feels driving the car, not on a a specific part of traction control algorithm or in stress analysis of a suspension arm.

[jas123f1]

I think Alonso, Massa and Lewis (and I am sure for Lewis and Alonso) spend a lot of time with their engineers in their free time and talk to them what they think can be changed or improved on the car. Drivers learn from engineers and engineers learn from drivers. Otherwise I can't see any need of test and practice session before any race?! :eek:

It would be like saying, engineers design and build the cars and give them to drivers on sunday to race whatever the drivers may like or not like as long you seem to say drivers don't have any input in design, construction or assembling the car.

Today, one of the things Ferrari is missing, is the strong feedback from MS and a part of their reliability issue is down to their lack of MS and Ross Brawn.

Last year, Ferrari was on top with MS and Mclaren was down because of their lack of reliability. And today it is the reverse?! Mclaren seems to be more reliable than Ferrari. Mclaren benefiting from Alonso and Ferrari missing MS. Following this, I hope drivers are very important as well in building up a competitive and reliable car.

I don't think that Massa or any other driver are working more with their teams than Kimi or make better job than him.

It’s drivers work to tell to the team what he needs to be faster on the track. That’s the point. That’s a drivers work, because without that he or a team will newer be as champions.

So its’ not true at all that Kimi doesn't work with his team. He is working very hard with his team and you can even see the result today (if you want) because the car is today much more suited for him than it was in beginning of the year. It’s a result of the team work there Kimi has his important part ..So if we first are saying that the car is today much better suited for Kimi and then assert the contrary ??? To be quite honest with you it doesn’t sound quite truthful.

But things like electric or hydraulic failures are definitely not Kimis fault.

:)

[Storm]

Well, we may take another approach. As Kimi is not very interested in the technical side of F1 nor isn't a top car developer, then he doesn't put as much emphasis on preparing the car for the race as do the rivals, which results in having more unreliable cars.

Or you mean his mechanics/engineers don't put as much emphasis on preparing the car ? :p :

Because seriously however good a driver is on the technical side, the final prep/building of the car is out of his hand. As is the luck of the draw, faulty components, strategy gone bad, weather etc.

Kimi has has rotten luck in his whole career (I call it bad luck, some of you can call it his driving style which breaks cars :rolleyes: ). If he had as much reliability of Alonso/Renault (forget MS and HIS bullet-proof car) he would be have been atleast a 1-time world champ by now.

[andreag]

Back to topic, here's the onboard camera from changing tyres to one lap after Fernando overtakes Felipe:

http://stage6.divx.com/F1-Erco/video/1454744/F1-2007-Gp-Europa-Alonso-adelanta-a-Massa-Onboard

Look at the open line Fernando use to take the turns on wet; he did the same last year at Hungaroring, as this video of the Michael hunt shows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7vXP50UYZY

In fact this is the right way to drive on wet, and surprinsingly Michael should know it, as someone (and not anyone) did the same some years ago:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=fVQFEFtFBCA

The reason is simple; on wet, the usual driving line, which has too much rubber on it, is much more slipery than the rest of the track, so cars drive slowly on this line, but if you leave it, you can drive faster and safer, with more grip than your opponents.

[osg]

Anyways, after 6 pages........ the end result is that one of the 2 drivers has 2 world titles and won the race........... the other has nothing.

Felipe got schooled. Simple as that.

[jas123f1]

I'm sorry, but this is not a fact.

From 2002-2006 Kimi's cars and teammate's cars retirements due to reliability issues (not collisions, accidents, black flags or massive USA '05 retirements), have been:

2002 17 races.
Kimi: 10. (59%).
Coulthard: 3. (18%).

2003 16 races.
Kimi: 1. (6%).
Coulthard: 4. (25%).

2004 18 races.
Kimi: 7. (39%).
Coulthard: 2. (11%).

2005 19 races.
Kimi: 3. (16%).
Montoya: 3. (16%). (Neither Wurz or de la Rosa retired that season).

2006 18 races.
Kimi: 2. (11%).
Montoya/de la Rosa: 4. (22%). (2 each).

TOTAL 2002-2006 88 races.
Kimi: 23. (26%).
Teammates: 16. (18%).

In 2007 Kimi has retired already twice, and to keep his average, he should do it again in another two races. If Felipe suffers 3 retirements in the next 7 races, he'll keep the average of teammates retirements; if not, the difference between kimi and his mates will increase.

This are facts.

When speaking about facts - Here is a guy who has more to say :) to you who are intereted.

http://87.117.195.32/kimi/forum/viewtopic.php?t=604

[andreag]

He's counting all retirements (including accidents, collisions, black flags, and so on). I just counted electrical, mechanical or hidrulical failures.

His numbers and mine are almost the same (I had to count them all, race by race, and substract the retirements due to other than malfuncioning), except for three diferences:

1.- I said season 2005 had 19 races (and it was like this), one of which was USA, I didn't count as retirement (but I pointed this in my message).

2.- I count as retirement Europe GP 2005, even as officially he gets classified, due to the broken suspension everyone remember.

3.- In the same year he had another two retirements due to failures: San Marino and Germany; what gives a total of 3 retirements this year.

Count the retirements due to failures in that page, and you'll see its exactly what I posted, bearing in mind the above points 1 and 2 from 2005 (as I did).

[jas123f1]

He's counting all retirements (including accidents, collisions, black flags, and so on). I just counted electrical, mechanical or hidrulical failures.

However, I prefer his much more detailed and founded facts before yours at random made attempt to argumentation to something you only like to proof. It’s so easy to take something and make statistical argumentations of "what ever you like". I don't like to copy it because it's in an other forum and very long (and detailed) description of things around Kimis retirements. But it's still there to every one who like know more of it... :)

[raphael123]

As I said, is it a coincidence :?: You decide for yourself. I am real and so is the evidence. Cars Kimi drives always seem to malfunction. That is a FACT. You get real now.

Ok....you go ahead and believe that a driver can miraculously cause a hydraulics failure, or an electronic failure. You're the one who will look stupid, unless you know something the Ferrari team don't. Please, as I said, get real!

[Donney]

However, I prefer his much more detailed and founded facts before yours at random made attempt to argumentation to something you only like to proof. It’s so easy to take something and make statistical argumentations of "what ever you like". I don't like to copy it because it's in an other forum and very long (and detailed) description of things around Kimis retirements. But it's still there to every one who like know more of it... :)


I don't think Kimi is car breaker but I don't think you have the right to say her facts are random and unfouded especially if they have been explained and reasoned, but each one to its own I guess.

[ioan]

However, I prefer his much more detailed and founded facts before yours at random made attempt to argumentation to something you only like to proof. It’s so easy to take something and make statistical argumentations of "what ever you like". I don't like to copy it because it's in an other forum and very long (and detailed) description of things around Kimis retirements. But it's still there to every one who like know more of it... :)

Did you make an attempt to do your own research on the matter?
I suppose not!
So than why do you consider someone's well done work as "random made attempt to argumentation"? Denigrating her work without having anything to support your actions only shows that you are biased and can't accept reality when faced with it. :rolleyes:

[janneppi]

Did you make an attempt to do your own research on the matter?
I suppose not!
So than why do you consider someone's well done work as "random made attempt to argumentation"? Denigrating her work without having anything to support your actions only shows that you are biased and can't accept reality when faced with it. :rolleyes:
Because that's what andreag's work essentially was, while well researched, lacking in proper analysis. Having only done a average calculation of five years it didn't explain the differences between the two years when Kimi had lot of failures and the three years when he had less failures than his team mates.
No bias needed to see that.

[ioan]

Because that's what andreag's work essentially was, while well researched, lacking in proper analysis. Having only done a average calculation of five years it didn't explain the differences between the two years when Kimi had lot of failures and the three years when he had less failures than his team mates.
No bias needed to see that.

If it lacks proper analysis, which wasn't exactly the case, than one might point it out and do it him/herself. But sure it's easier to say it's crap than to do the work. :\

[janneppi]

If it lacks proper analysis, which wasn't exactly the case, than one might point it out and do it him/herself. But sure it's easier to say it's crap than to do the work. :\
Didn't jas123f1 link to a more in depth analysis?
Besides, why shouldn't we critisize others work if it isn't as good as it could be?

BTW, since you don't seem find nothing wrong with it how do you think it explained those differences between the mentioned years?

[ioan]

Didn't jas123f1 link to a more in depth analysis?

More in depth?
First you say that andreag's analysis was not complete and than you call the post to which jas123f1's linked as an in depth analysis?
Did you read it? Since when do absolute values provide a deeper picture than percentages? The guy even goes to say that using 2 way telemetry the engineers broke Kimi's engines!



Besides, why shouldn't we critisize others work if it isn't as good as it could be?


You may criticize it, but than do come up and show that your work is better done, else your criticism has no base to it. That's as simple as that.

[janneppi]

More in depth?
First you say that andreag's analysis was not complete and than you call the post to which jas123f1's linked as an in depth analysis?
Did you read it? Since when do absolute values provide a deeper picture than percentages? The guy even goes to say that using 2 way telemetry the engineers broke Kimi's engines!


did you read it, the guy did not suggest telemetry was a reason.
Since when do just basic average calculations take into account differences in years and the cars?
BTW, since you don't seem find nothing wrong with it how do you think it explained those differences between the mentioned years? ;)

[ioan]

BTW, since you don't seem find nothing wrong with it how do you think it explained those differences between the mentioned years? ;)

Why not ask about differences per race if you already chose to go down this road?
Analysis of any kind will yield better results when the data used is taken over a larger intervals, thus the only thing that really matters is:



TOTAL 2002-2006 88 races.
Kimi: 23. (26%).
Teammates: 16. (18%).

[janneppi]

Why not ask about differences per race if you already chose to go down this road?
Because i don't need as thorough answer from you, season differences will suffice. Why aren't you interested in explaining that?




Analysis of any kind will yield better results when the data used is taken over a larger intervals, thus the only thing that really matters is:Nothing lies like a simple statistc, you should know that, but i guess things like differences in engineering staff, regulation changes, etc wont affect at all? :)

[ioan]

Nothing lies like a simple statistc, you should know that, but i guess things like differences in engineering staff, regulation changes, etc wont affect at all? :)

They might affect it, please send me the thesis on this subject when you finished it, no matter the outcome of the research! :p :

Statistics exist because they are useful, believe it or not.

[janneppi]

So no answer to my question then?

[andreag]

Sorry; I've been busy this two days and I couldn't even look at the Forum, so I had no idea of this discussion around my post.

First of all thanks to those who understood my intention of a simple overlook of Kimi retirements in the period 2002-2006, [b]only as an answer to a wrong asumption made by Mallen:


From 2002-2006, Kimi's team-mates cars have fallen foul of reliability issues more than he has. That is also a fact.
When I read it, I knew it was wrong (as I remember I did this calculation last year), and in order to give a real answer, I checked the results from the 88 races, separating retirements by its kind.

As Mallen's afirmation was just if Kimi had more retirements than his teammates, that data should be enough, because the numbers are clear (23 to 16), and no further work should be done with this figures.

Of course I can make a full statistic of Kimi's problems, separating those which appeared during practices from those in race; separating the hidraulic from the electrical, from the simply mechanical; separating the different mechanical problems due to pure malfuncioning of a part from those caused by the driver.

I could go further and calculate the cost in points this problems would represent, according to his position in the race, or many other factors. And I could do the same with his teammates too if this would be of any help.

Because this is the point where I can't undersatand the objections; all this is about the comparison between Kimi's problems against his teammates' ones; just like this, a simple comparison, plain and direct. So why does anybody need more details?

If the matter is if Kimi is a car breaker, all the things some mentioned are neccesary to make a serious study, and much more than the mentioned (if you want a good study). But I didn't try to do it (and beleive, I can).

Imagine if someone says between Nurburgring and Hungaroring there're three weeks, and another one answers with a copy-paste of the calendar showing the las two weeks of July and the first two of August, to demonstrate there're only two weeks between both races. And then a thisrd person protests saying this is not enough, and it would be neccesary to make a study of the evolution of local temperatures during the last 50 years, plus a orographic comparision between both tracks, and another one about the mystic simbolism of the letters from the names of the past winners of all races :eek: .

[ioan]

So no answer to my question then?

I told you, if you wish to go into detail you can do it, but first take a look at the whole image.
Cherry picking occasions that suit your POV is no proof against what generalized statistics say. ;)

Good night!

[raphael123]

Sorry; I've been busy this two days and I couldn't even look at the Forum, so I had no idea of this discussion around my post.

First of all thanks to those who understood my intention of a simple overlook of Kimi retirements in the period 2002-2006, [b]only as an answer to a wrong asumption made by Mallen:


When I read it, I knew it was wrong (as I remember I did this calculation last year), and in order to give a real answer, I checked the results from the 88 races, separating retirements by its kind.

As Mallen's afirmation was just if Kimi had more retirements than his teammates, that data should be enough, because the numbers are clear (23 to 16), and no further work should be done with this figures.

Of course I can make a full statistic of Kimi's problems, separating those which appeared during practices from those in race; separating the hidraulic from the electrical, from the simply mechanical; separating the different mechanical problems due to pure malfuncioning of a part from those caused by the driver.

I could go further and calculate the cost in points this problems would represent, according to his position in the race, or many other factors. And I could do the same with his teammates too if this would be of any help.

Because this is the point where I can't undersatand the objections; all this is about the comparison between Kimi's problems against his teammates' ones; just like this, a simple comparison, plain and direct. So why does anybody need more details?

If the matter is if Kimi is a car breaker, all the things some mentioned are neccesary to make a serious study, and much more than the mentioned (if you want a good study). But I didn't try to do it (and beleive, I can).

Imagine if someone says between Nurburgring and Hungaroring there're three weeks, and another one answers with a copy-paste of the calendar showing the las two weeks of July and the first two of August, to demonstrate there're only two weeks between both races. And then a thisrd person protests saying this is not enough, and it would be neccesary to make a study of the evolution of local temperatures during the last 50 years, plus a orographic comparision between both tracks, and another one about the mystic simbolism of the letters from the names of the past winners of all races :eek: .

Some mechanical failures could be caused due to driver. Such as Kimi's failure in Nurb 05, though it was a car failure, he bought that by himself.

How any driver can bring about an electronic or hydraulic failure though - well, no one seems to know. It's pretty much accepted drivers don't cause these kind of failures. That's why an in-depth analysis is needed.

And to the forumer who stated you shouldn't be able to critizise anyone without doing a better job yourself - how silly statement is that! Does that mean he won't critizise Alonso or any other driver who challenges Ferrari when he makes a mistake. Can we not critizise the government with their policies unless we can first come up with our own policies? Please...be serious!

[janneppi]

I told you, if you wish to go into detail you can do it, but first take a look at the whole image.
Cherry picking occasions that suit your POV is no proof against what generalized statistics say. ;)


A generalized image is just a a generalization which can easily tell different stories, for example
years 2003-2006
Kimi has the same mechanical problem rate(andreag's numbers) as his team mates. (16&#37 ;)

Why the difference, could it possibly be that from years 2002-2006, 43% of Kimi's problems were from 2002, a whopping 73% were from years 2002 and 2004?
How's that for generationalyzing. ;)
If you look too far away at the forest, you miss the trees, despite point of views and bias. ;)

[Big Ben]

I can't decide which one is worse Hamilton or Alonso fanboyism! :rolleyes:

schumacher´s are the worst... trust me

[wmcot]

schumacher´s are the worst... trust me

You mean Ralf??? :)

[ioan]

You mean Ralf??? :)

Given that he's the only one Schumacher in F1 it must be him! :D
But than Ralf fans are an almost extincted species, with very few of us still kicking around! ;)