The restart

[ioan]

I'm not really up to date with the latest rules in F1, so if anyone can help about the race restart please do it.

I thought that if the stop the race than they will have to run with corrected gaps (current gap + pre race stop gap) until the end of the race. At least this is what it was like when this happened in the past.

[Dave B]

Hey?

So if somebody's 10 seconds behind when the race is stopped, they have to remain 10 seconds behind until the end of the race? Is that what you're saying, because that's nonsense.

I really don't understand the question :s

The rules are simply that if more than 2 laps have been completed, the race is restarted in the order they were running before the red flag was shown. Any less than that and it's simply null and void and all starts again.

[BDunnell]

I'm not really up to date with the latest rules in F1, so if anyone can help about the race restart please do it.

I thought that if the stop the race than they will have to run with corrected gaps (current gap + pre race stop gap) until the end of the race. At least this is what it was like when this happened in the past.

Do you mean that the race would be decided on the basis of aggregate timings, like Japan in 1994?

[jonny hurlock]

Do you mean that the race would be decided on the basis of aggregate timings, like Japan in 1994?

the race should be nither be a two part race like at suzuka 94 or the race should restarted with 56 laps to go like at spa 2001

[Valve Bounce]

If you were in the chat room, then a guy called "Somebody" quoted the rules from somewhere for us so we all knew the rules. I was surprised they allowed Lewis Hamilton to unlap himself during the SC laps, but them's the rules!!

[call_me_andrew]

I started watching the race at lap 25, and I left just after Massa missed that piece of debris that came off one of the Renaults. I'm thinking I missed something important.

[Valve Bounce]

I started watching the race at lap 25, and I left just after Massa missed that piece of debris that came off one of the Renaults. I'm thinking I missed something important.

Let's hope you taped it. It was crazy!!

[jso1985]

Do you mean that the race would be decided on the basis of aggregate timings, like Japan in 1994?

certainly some rules have improved!

[leopard]

If you were in the chat room, then a guy called "Somebody" quoted the rules from somewhere for us so we all knew the rules. I was surprised they allowed Lewis Hamilton to unlap himself during the SC laps, but them's the rules!!He should have got lapped by everybody if they didn't allow him doing so, better not to continue the rest of race.

[racer69]

To be honest i preferred the aggregate system. It wasn't that hard to follow, and it meant someone with a good lead (as Winkelhock had) doesn't get it taken away from them (like the unfairness of the safety car)

As for this unlapping rubbish.........why do we still take F1 seriously?

[leopard]

Safety car is not sort of unfairness, aggregate system maybe fine but it takes luckiness factor out of F1. That system makes the race less interesting because the aggregate time will influence the final result, no fun.
Hamilton have had bad race from qualifying, and the way unlapping SC granted for him didn't give him any points.

Don't be discouraged, F1 is not only about rubbish of unlapping.

[ioan]

Why is that people believe that it's OK for Winkelhock to lose a 33 seconds lead he gained on the track in a fair way?
The race was not stopped in it's first lap so why put them all equal again?
Not to mention this unlapping under SC nonsense.

It all points to the FIA making rules to artificially improve the show! Are we watching Wrestling or F1?

[ioan]

Hey?

So if somebody's 10 seconds behind when the race is stopped, they have to remain 10 seconds behind until the end of the race? Is that what you're saying, because that's nonsense.

:rolleyes:

[ioan]

Do you mean that the race would be decided on the basis of aggregate timings, like Japan in 1994?

Yes that was the idea, thanks.

[janneppi]

Shouldn't that apply to safety car periods too then?

[ShiftingGears]

I think the red flag rule was fine, I don't like the sound of aggregate. Unlapping during a safety car is absolute bull**** though, and it highlights the fact that the safety car is really just another name for the pace car.

[leopard]

No, ***bull was those like get benefit from that SC :)

Having said elsewhere, that unlapping during SC deployed was very contextual, they will not implement any stupidity if they don't see an extraordinary incident where 5 or more cars were trapped at the same place.
Give more time to the race before deploying SC, then you may see only Winkelhock at the race as the survival.

I think all trapped drivers can accomplish the race like they treated Hamilton to make more reasonable time to catch up drivers in front of him, but not in such long gaps, say two laps or more. How can Hamilton ever get pass anybody if he has to be blue flagged to let them pass him by?

[ioan]

Shouldn't that apply to safety car periods too then?

In all honesty it should, but that would spoil the "close" racing created artificially. Although it would create real racing given that they would have to fight like dogs for those gaps. But go tell that to the FIA and Bernie.

[janneppi]

If that were the case, a driver who are ahead shouldn't really be allowed to block others if they are faster. They are artificially close and it could hinder strategies of those behind a slow leader.
But that would just affect the strategy of the one who is in front. :)

It just isn't really fair either way, at least the current system is simple.

[ioan]

If that were the case, a driver who are ahead shouldn't really be allowed to block others if they are faster. They are artificially close and it could hinder strategies of those behind a slow leader.
But that would just affect the strategy of the one who is in front. :)


You mean that the guy that is in front because he was faster would be blocking the one that is behind and who was slower before they stopped the race? I can't see how that is any different that what happens in every race at the moment?!

[janneppi]

How was winkelhöek faster than Massa and Alonso? :)

It doesn't even have to a drastic difference in speeds or big gaps, pit strategies could even create a situation where a slower car is in front.
Let's say Heidfeld finds himself in the lead with Massa behind him in the restart, Massa can't overtake Heidfeld who in a normal situation would be 25 secs ahead, Massa has to run slower than normal, because of this Massa in the end looses to Alonso who has had more fuel but in a normal situation could not have kept up with Massa.
Massa could even loose to Heidfeld because Heidi has that 25 sec gap in the bank for his pit stop.

[Valve Bounce]

Why is that people believe that it's OK for Winkelhock to lose a 33 seconds lead he gained on the track in a fair way?
The race was not stopped in it's first lap so why put them all equal again?
Not to mention this unlapping under SC nonsense.

It all points to the FIA making rules to artificially improve the show! Are we watching Wrestling or F1?


Wrestling!!

[tinchote]

I'm not saying there is a simple solution. But the way it is now it's a problem, because a driver can lose the advantage gained by a decision someone makes outside the track; who guarantees total fairness on the decision of whether to deploy the safety car or to red-flag the race?

[janneppi]

There is of course a solution, in Nordic combined they sometimes use a system where skiers are lined up according how well they jumped, those points are transformed in to a time difference and are sent off in that time difference.

Have the line up in the pitlane and let then go according to the time differences they had before the red flag.
This of course would create a need for a much bigger pitlane and several traffic ligths if drivers are only a fraction of a second behind each other. :)

[Ranger]

There is of course a solution, in Nordic combined they sometimes use a system where skiers are lined up according how well they jumped, those points are transformed in to a time difference and are sent off in that time difference.

Have the line up in the pitlane and let then go according to the time differences they had before the red flag.
This of course would create a need for a much bigger pitlane and several traffic ligths if drivers are only a fraction of a second behind each other. :)
Bugger that!

In F1, you win some and you lose some, and if so - tough. The red flag rule worked well I think, given the circumstances.

[janneppi]

Bugger that!

In F1, you win some and you lose some, and if so - tough. The red flag rule worked well I think, given the circumstances.
That's how i see it too, I'm just helping those who want a complicated system. ;)

[tinchote]

That's how i see it too, I'm just helping those who want a complicated system. ;)

I'm in the lot looking for the complicated system. I think that races should be won or lost on merit, not on decisions taken outside the track. It's really a turn-off for me. I couldn't watch the race, and I'm glad I didn't.

I also find it awckward that people who like these "spice up" rules, later hail drivers as geniouses when they win, like it was done in pure merit.

[DaveTaylor]

Wrestling!!

I think loan was meaning sports entertainment rather than sport. (completely set up just to please the crowds)

[ioan]

I think loan was meaning sports entertainment rather than sport. (completely set up just to please the crowds)

Right. F1 is looking more and more like entertainment instead of sport. It's more about TV money and sponsors than about racing and winning on merit.
And we all know that there are more viewers if the show is more exciting, and more viewers mean that BE will squeeze more TV money and the teams for more sponsorship money and so on.

What I don't understand is why is the FIA playing along with this? They should make healthy rules to insure the legitimacy of the competition not to produce an artificial show. :s

[Dave B]

As for this unlapping rubbish.........why do we still take F1 seriously?
It was an a strange situation on Sunday to have a usually front-running car lapped, but the rule is there so that (say) a Spyker or Aguri doesn't get in the way of the faster cars on a restart, creating a potentially dangerous mobile chicane.

[ioan]

It was an a strange situation on Sunday to have a usually front-running car lapped, but the rule is there so that (say) a Spyker or Aguri doesn't get in the way of the faster cars on a restart, creating a potentially dangerous mobile chicane.

Well there was however a Spyker, driven by a first time F1 driver, in the way of the faster cars at the restart and didn't create any danger to anyone even he had the right to fight them! ;)

[BDunnell]

It was an a strange situation on Sunday to have a usually front-running car lapped, but the rule is there so that (say) a Spyker or Aguri doesn't get in the way of the faster cars on a restart, creating a potentially dangerous mobile chicane.

But in this case, I don't think Hamilton had been lapped at the time the race was stopped.

[ioan]

But in this case, I don't think Hamilton had been lapped at the time the race was stopped.

And he wasn't ahead of faster cars either! :p :

[andreag]

But in this case, I don't think Hamilton had been lapped at the time the race was stopped.
Not only he was lapped when the race was stopped, but without this red flag, he could heve being lapped again, as it took some time for the crane to put him on the track; his fortune was the rest of the cars were halted before the finnish line, and they couldn't lap him twice.

If the race wasn't stopped, he would probably ended his race, as I doubt the crane would be allowed to put him back on a open track with cars running under the rain.

[BDunnell]

Not only he was lapped when the race was stopped, but without this red flag, he could heve being lapped again, as it took some time for the crane to put him on the track; his fortune was the rest of the cars were halted before the finnish line, and they couldn't lap him twice.

On this point, I am willing to believe the race stewards. With the data at their disposal, I am sure that they were able to ascertain the precise position.

By the way, I ought to clarify the fact that the positions were backdated by one lap prior to the red flag, which makes it less likely that Hamilton had been lapped at that point.


If the race wasn't stopped, he would probably ended his race, as I doubt the crane would be allowed to put him back on a open track with cars running under the rain.

As far as I can remember, the race hadn't been stopped by the time he was put back onto the track.

[andreag]

Take a look a this official lap chart; lapped on lap 3:

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1111777891__EUR_Race_Lap_Chart_07.pdf

[Dave B]

This taken for the FIA's race report, bears out that Hamilton was a lap down:



* Lap 6: Trulli and Davidson pit. Hamilton – a lap down – is instructed to pass all other cars and reclaim his missing lap. Once he has done that, he comes in for dry tyres.

* Lap 7: Weather forecast changes: no rain for the next 30 minutes.

* Lap 8: Restart. Massa and Alonso immediately swamp Winkelhock. Massa ends the lap ahead from Alonso, Coulthard, Webber, Kovalainen, Räikkönen, Wurz, Winkelhock, Barrichello, Fisichella, Kubica, Schumacher, Sato, Heidfeld, Trulli Davidson and Hamilton – a lap down again due to his extra stop (and presently slower dry tyres).

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Information/F1/Press_Conferences/2007/Europe/race_facts.html

[wedge]

To be honest i preferred the aggregate system. It wasn't that hard to follow, and it meant someone with a good lead (as Winkelhock had) doesn't get it taken away from them (like the unfairness of the safety car)

Aggregate system is horrible and complicated.

I remember the 1994 Japanese GP. I almost felt robbed and cheated of a good race. Mansell and Alesi had a terrific fight and wasn't even for overall position!

Its a good thing we have computers and live timing!

[ioan]

Its a good thing we have computers and live timing!

And that's why aggregated times are easy to follow, and also fairer than the set up show we got yesterday. Winkelhock was simply robbed of all he achieved.

[Flat.tyres]

And that's why aggregated times are easy to follow, and also fairer than the set up show we got yesterday. Winkelhock was simply robbed of all he achieved.

I like seeing a race where the one that takes the flag wins. always hated aggregare times.

Winklehock would have been mugged after a few laps anyway once the track dried and wouldnt have finished in the points.

[ioan]

I like seeing a race where the one that takes the flag wins. always hated aggregare times.

Winklehock would have been mugged after a few laps anyway once the track dried and wouldnt have finished in the points.

You knew that on advance? What if it started raining heavily and he managed to get in the points however?
I suppose no one cares. :s

[andreag]

Can you please rewind your taped race to see where Winkelhock was at the time the red flag was shown?

If you don't have the race recorded, I can tell you; coming back to the track from the gravel, where he loose almost his 30 seconds advantage; without a red flag he would be probably taken in the main straight.

[wedge]

And that's why aggregated times are easy to follow, and also fairer than the set up show we got yesterday. Winkelhock was simply robbed of all he achieved.

We see more SC instead of red flags these days anyway.

The SC came out before the red flag, IIRC, plus they restarted the race under SC conditions so Winkelhock's would've been eradicated anyway.

[Flat.tyres]

You knew that on advance? What if it started raining heavily and he managed to get in the points however?
I suppose no one cares. :s


even if he hadn't have spun and was still 30 seconds up the road, he would be losing about 5 seconds a lap to the last finisher so yes, he hadn't a hope of staying in the points even with the aggregate

[raphael123]

And that's why aggregated times are easy to follow, and also fairer than the set up show we got yesterday. Winkelhock was simply robbed of all he achieved.

He didn't do that much - it was a team decision to put the inters on, not him. All he did was wait until everyone pitted. Any of the 22 guys on there could have done it.

Aggregate would be awful. I don't actually mind the unlapping rule during SC, as it means when the race re-starts the front guys don't have to put up with the cars one lap behind. What I don't like is the closure of the pitlane - that is a farce!