"Rats" and "sinking ship" leap to mind.....

[Dave B]

...as Gil de Ferran quits Honda.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40052

[Ian McC]

Sinking? Sunk more like it ;)

[Caroline]

Honda are in a mess. I bet that was an incredibly frustrating job!

Who's next?

[call_me_andrew]

I'm sure there's still some glutton for punishment who wants the challenge.

[Nikki Katz]

I don't see what he ever did anyway, other than being a media spokesman. Probably why he was dissatisfied.

[Stuartf12007]

i blame the appauling livery.

[AJP]

i blame the appauling livery.
who wouldn't....? ;)

[truefan72]

who wouldn't....? ;)

I wouldn't. I have grown to like it.

The problems with Honda are far deeper than DeFerran, but He has alos played his part in sigining his buddy Rubens to a long term contract and by not managing the staff properly or getting them prepared for the 2007 campaign. There was a general air of content after the 2006 eason and they did nothing but take step backwards in 2007.

[Valve Bounce]

I wouldn't. I have grown to like it.

The problems with Honda are far deeper than DeFerran, but He has also played his part in sigining his buddy Rubens to a long term contract and by not managing the staff properly or getting them prepared for the 2007 campaign. There was a general air of content after the 2006 eason and they did nothing but take step backwards in 2007.

Let's be honest here. We are talking about the hiring of a driver who had beaten SchM, arguably one of the best to ever race in F1, on even terms. Who the hell would not have signed Rubens up given half the chance? The problem here is that somehow the car did not suit Rubens, Rubens did not suit the car, or simply the car started a slow decline. Take your pick. I don't mind a lot of jokes at Rubens lack of success, I am possibly more guilty than most others at this. But sometimes we do have to take stock of what we say and admit that, jokes aside to keep this forum rambling along during quiet times, we can be wrong in our assessments.

This Honda is a lousy design, Gil has not been given the role Ross Brawn had at Ferrari, and it's all gone pear shape.

I have had my digs at bunsen and Rubens, but let's face it, the car is bloody hopeless if it can be beaten by a second hand Honda in a budget team.

[Sleeper]

I never did understand what exactly he was doing at Honda anyway.

And for those taking potshots at Honda, the car is getting better ('bout damn time too).

[Valve Bounce]

I never did understand what exactly he was doing at Honda anyway.

And for those taking potshots at Honda, the car is getting better ('bout damn time too).

LINK PLEASE!! :eek:

[gloomyDAY]

i blame the appauling livery.
I second that!


I never did understand what exactly he was doing at Honda anyway.

And for those taking potshots at Honda, the car is getting better ('bout damn time too).
How do you figure that the car is getting better?

[Hawkmoon]

The Honda ship was holed below the water line the day they removed David Richards. The ship was sunk the day they got rid of Geoff Willis.

If one thing can be learned from the Jaguar Racing mess it has to be that stability in your technical and leadership teams is essential to success in F1. Stability doesn't automatically mean success but instabilty will invariably lead to failure.

I guess Honda haven't taken any lessons from what made Ferrari so strong and Jaguar so weak.

[tsarcasm]

well put!

championships are based around continuality and evolution

Richards and Willis helped Honda, but BAR didn't see it that way.....

I drive Honda's personally, but the F1 team is sinking....fast....

[Dave B]

And for those taking potshots at Honda, the car is getting better ('bout damn time too).
It's getting better than it was at the start of this season, possibly. But that's a huge step backwards from where they were even last year, let alone the 11 podiums (as BAR) of 2004.

[Valve Bounce]

well put!

I drive Honda's personally, but the F1 team is sinking....fast....

So does Taku and ant; well second hand ones anyway.
But that doesn't help, does it?

[Mark]

Indeed, it takes about 3 years to design and build a winning Formula 1 car. You can't keep chopping and changing.

[Valve Bounce]

Indeed, it takes about 3 years to design and build a winning Formula 1 car. You can't keep chopping and changing.

I think Honda will be glad when this season ends - they will unveil a totally new car for next year. I just hope Aguri won't be landed with this years duds. :(

[wedge]

I really can't see what the technical side of Honda has to do with de Ferran.

De Ferran was just an advisor with a fancy title, much the same way Gerhard Berger was an advisor with a fancy title at BMW, and now you have Schumi working as advisor/consultancy role. I believe Niki Lauda had a similar role with McLaren and Ferrari over 10years ago.

I'm guessing De Ferran wants to progress into a more hands on approach/management role instead of doing PR all the time.

[scaliwag]

So the samurai sword has finally fallen on Gil de Ferran.

I see that as a positive step, I argued from the day of his appointment he would be a disaster for Honda, and it proved to be the case, it was he who employed Barrichello his close friend, a driver who had previously sold his WC ambition for a bank full of money when he signed up to be MS;s rear gunner.
A driver who after winter testing plus several races announced he couldn't drive the car!!!!!!!!!!!!! what a capture from Ferrai that was.

I believe it was de Ferran that undermined Willis,(I have no concrete evidence, just paddock rumour) if team Honda are to improve, perhaps de Ferran's dismissal will prove to be the catalyst.
Regards scaliwag.

[Easy Drifter]

Strange (or not) the 2 Japanese car companies with similar attitudes towards staff and changing personnel all the time are both floundering. IMO they both need a strong team manager who is left alone to run the team with staff that isn't being rotated in and out of Japan on a regular basis. I realize most of the pit lane crew are not from Japan but the engine people and a lot of the back room boys are.

[ioan]

I believe it was de Ferran that undermined Willis,(I have no concrete evidence, just paddock rumour) ...

That's enough evidence to start this kind of thread?

[Flat.tyres]

Strange (or not) the 2 Japanese car companies with similar attitudes towards staff and changing personnel all the time are both floundering. IMO they both need a strong team manager who is left alone to run the team with staff that isn't being rotated in and out of Japan on a regular basis. I realize most of the pit lane crew are not from Japan but the engine people and a lot of the back room boys are.

you really have to feel a bit for button here. he's sweat blood on that team, only considered moving because he was being stiched, has worked tirelessly since then, scored most of their points and their one win and has nothing to show for it.

the boy can drive but he's mounting a turd.

Its a bit of a pity that McLarri gate blew up otherwise he may have had a car next year to challenge :laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

you really have to feel a bit for button here. he's sweat blood on that team, only considered moving because he was being stiched, ................................................


:laugh:

Like when he wanted to jump ship from Honda and move to Williams and then later on reneged on his contracted obligations to move to the same team he wanted to jump ship to?

Bunsen made his bed and it's poetic justice that he has to lie in a bed of shyte.

[Flat.tyres]

Like when he wanted to jump ship from Honda and move to Williams and then later on reneged on his contracted obligations to move to the same team he wanted to jump ship to?

Bunsen made his bed and it's poetic justice that he has to lie in a bed of shyte.

he was being stiched royally at the time and any driver worth his seat would not stand for that. drivers jumping is happening all the time and all of them will try and get the best drive for the next year.

your little friend Ant would have been off like a shot if he was poached but it was 1 year, not two and Honda had a tight noose.

[Valve Bounce]

he was being stiched royally at the time and any driver worth his seat would not stand for that. drivers jumping is happening all the time and all of them will try and get the best drive for the next year.

your little friend Ant would have been off like a shot if he was poached but it was 1 year, not two and Honda had a tight noose.

Actually, I want to go on record right now to refute what you say. For a start, bunsen was contracted to Honda when he tried to jump ship to Williams. Then he was contracted to Williams and he reneged.

As for Williams offering to give ant a test drive, it appears you know nothing about Williams's intentions. It was never for a race seat for one year. And I challenge you to give me one single instance where ant was disloyal to Honda.

[wedge]

So the samurai sword has finally fallen on Gil de Ferran.

I see that as a positive step, I argued from the day of his appointment he would be a disaster for Honda, and it proved to be the case, it was he who employed Barrichello his close friend, a driver who had previously sold his WC ambition for a bank full of money when he signed up to be MS;s rear gunner.
A driver who after winter testing plus several races announced he couldn't drive the car!!!!!!!!!!!!! what a capture from Ferrai that was.

I believe it was de Ferran that undermined Willis,(I have no concrete evidence, just paddock rumour) if team Honda are to improve, perhaps de Ferran's dismissal will prove to be the catalyst.
Regards scaliwag.

Absolute nonsense!

Gil does not regularly test drive the car nor does he have a full working knowledge of computational fluid dynamics.

Gil had no legitimacy to undermine Willis, Gil was just lurking in the background serving an apprenticeship in management.

[Valve Bounce]

Absolute nonsense!

Gil does not regularly test drive the car nor does he have a full working knowledge of computational fluid dynamics.

Gil had no legitimacy to undermine Willis, Gil was just lurking in the background serving an apprenticeship in management.

The only sway he had at Honda was in the hiring of his friend Rubens, and it did seem to be a very good choice at the time.

[wedge]

The only sway he had at Honda was in the hiring of his friend Rubens, and it did seem to be a very good choice at the time.

And still is!

Jenson was struggling more than Rubens in the first half of this season.

[Valve Bounce]

And still is!

Jenson was struggling more than Rubens in the first half of this season.


I don't mean that, although you do have a point there. But here is a guy, as I said before, who had outqualified and beaten SchM on equal terms on occasion.

[Flat.tyres]

Actually, I want to go on record right now to refute what you say. For a start, bunsen was contracted to Honda when he tried to jump ship to Williams. Then he was contracted to Williams and he reneged.

As for Williams offering to give ant a test drive, it appears you know nothing about Williams's intentions. It was never for a race seat for one year. And I challenge you to give me one single instance where ant was disloyal to Honda.

go on record all you want my friend :D

I also never claimed that Ant was disloyal to Honda or that the potential seat was at Williams. all I will say is that if you think any driver out there would sit on his thumbs rather than have a shot in a competitive car, then you are sadly mistaken. lets face it, the only reason that Ant didn't drive last year was that he might have had a shot in the Honda seat.

[Valve Bounce]

go on record all you want my friend :D

I also never claimed that Ant was disloyal to Honda or that the potential seat was at Williams. all I will say is that if you think any driver out there would sit on his thumbs rather than have a shot in a competitive car, then you are sadly mistaken. lets face it, the only reason that Ant didn't drive last year was that he might have had a shot in the Honda seat.


You seem to have dodged the painful bunsen stitches and tried to deflect your argument towards ant.

Your last statement is irrelevant and just plain dumb. Honda had bunsen and Rubens, so how you could possibly think ant had a chance to drive at Honda last year is just plain silly.

[scaliwag]

Absolute nonsense!

Gil does not regularly test drive the car nor does he have a full working knowledge of computational fluid dynamics.

Gil had no legitimacy to undermine Willis, Gil was just lurking in the background serving an apprenticeship in management.

wedge,.
De Ferran's time at team Honda was remarkable simply because he achieved absolutely nothing, zero, zilch.

His appointment of RB was an unmitigated disaster, AD Honda tester was the obvious replacement for TS, why was he overlooked???????.

My point is still the same DF employed RB for reason's of friendship, not for the benefit of team Honda.

Whether DF tests or has knowledge of computational fluid dynamics is irrelevant.
Regards scaliwag.

[wedge]

wedge,.
De Ferran's time at team Honda was remarkable simply because he achieved absolutely nothing, zero, zilch.

His appointment of RB was an unmitigated disaster, AD Honda tester was the obvious replacement for TS, why was he overlooked???????.

My point is still the same DF employed RB for reason's of friendship, not for the benefit of team Honda.

Whether DF tests or has knowledge of computational fluid dynamics is irrelevant.
Regards scaliwag.

Taku has been the better driver for Super Aguri ie. revised RA06, so I don't see how Ant would do a better job in the RA07 when Ant has a similar driver style to Button. On the other hand, Rubens has been the better driver so far in the dreadful RA07. I see no reason how Ant would do any better.

http://f1-facts.com/statistics/team-mates/Davidson

http://f1-facts.com/statistics/team-mates/Barrichello

[truefan72]

I second that!


How do you figure that the car is getting better?

you are right it isn't.
In fact they abandoned the 2007 car and went back to the 2006 model as of Silverstone. Which, of course, leads to more confusion as to the Super Aguri car. But as the Speed TV crew said. The team selling their previous year's model don't give up the intellectual rights and are more than legally able to use that "older" model if they so choose fit too.

[Hawkmoon]

you are right it isn't.
In fact they abandoned the 2007 car and went back to the 2006 model as of Silverstone. Which, of course, leads to more confusion as to the Super Aguri car. But as the Speed TV crew said. The team selling their previous year's model don't give up the intellectual rights and are more than legally able to use that "older" model if they so choose fit too.

Actually, I think Speed TV have that wrong. The Concorde Agreement says something along the lines of a constructor being the owner of the IP rights to a car design. If Honda sold the IP rights to Super Aguri for the 2006 car then they would be in breach of the Condorde Agreement if they were then to use the 2006 car themselves. Honda can't use the 2006 car because it isn't theirs to use. They could no more use the 2006 car than McLaren could use the F2007. Next year it's OK but this year it isn't.

I think that's how it works, anyway. :confused:

[Valve Bounce]

you are right it isn't.
In fact they abandoned the 2007 car and went back to the 2006 model as of Silverstone. Which, of course, leads to more confusion as to the Super Aguri car. But as the Speed TV crew said. The team selling their previous year's model don't give up the intellectual rights and are more than legally able to use that "older" model if they so choose fit too.


Let's hope they don't take the 2006 car back off Super Aguri, leaving SA with those antique Arrows. :(

[Malbec]

This Honda is a lousy design, Gil has not been given the role Ross Brawn had at Ferrari, and it's all gone pear shape.


De Ferran was never going to be a technical director, thats not what he was hired for.

He was supposed to be the link between the drivers and the team, to be able to articulate what they wanted back to the factory. It always was a role that wasn't going to be very strong or important and he once he realised that there was a limited amount he could contribute he wasn't happy.

He didn't contribute much to hiring Rubens either, RB approached Honda and the decision was taken much higher up than De Ferran to take him on board.

Its a loss for Honda but bearing in mind they've hired quite a few people recently from Williams and BMW its a little odd to say people are fleeing the team, if anything the team is growing in size not shrinking.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, bunsen hasn't fled yet - does that tell us something?

[Flat.tyres]

You seem to have dodged the painful bunsen stitches and tried to deflect your argument towards ant.

Your last statement is irrelevant and just plain dumb. Honda had bunsen and Rubens, so how you could possibly think ant had a chance to drive at Honda last year is just plain silly.

im not defending button but just stating a fact. yes, button chop and changed and got his fingers burnt but he's a hungry driver that wants success. pity he's not a little more aggressive on the track :D

as for ant being in with a shout of a Honda drive, think back to what was happening prior to the start of the 06 season when this was all going on behind the scenes. send a little email up to Hemel and clarify it if your unsure. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

im not defending button but just stating a fact. yes, button chop and changed and got his fingers burnt but he's a hungry driver that wants success. pity he's not a little more aggressive on the track :D

as for ant being in with a shout of a Honda drive, think back to what was happening prior to the start of the 06 season when this was all going on behind the scenes. send a little email up to Hemel and clarify it if your unsure. ;)


This is hardly an explanation for your original post:


you really have to feel a bit for button here. he's sweat blood on that team, only considered moving because he was being stiched, has worked tirelessly since then, scored most of their points and their one win and has nothing to show for it.

the boy can drive but he's mounting a turd.

Its a bit of a pity that McLarri gate blew up otherwise he may have had a car next year to challenge :laugh:

I challenged you to explain how Button was being stitched. As I stated on several occasions that Button was first being disloyal to Honda and then subsequently he was disloyal to Frank Williams.

Your trying to defelect your assinine statement by turning your attention to ant just shows how you want to dodge your earlier statement that Button was stitched. You say that you are not defending Button, but then tell us what you were trying to portray in your original post about button being stitched etc.

I am sure that ant had never remotely show the disloyalty to Honda, as you admitted, that Button has shown to both Honda and Frank Williams, the man who gave him his start to F1.

[Flat.tyres]

This is hardly an explanation for your original post:



I challenged you to explain how Button was being stitched. As I stated on several occasions that Button was first being disloyal to Honda and then subsequently he was disloyal to Frank Williams.

Your trying to defelect your assinine statement by turning your attention to ant just shows how you want to dodge your earlier statement that Button was stitched. You say that you are not defending Button, but then tell us what you were trying to portray in your original post about button being stitched etc.

I am sure that ant had never remotely show the disloyalty to Honda, as you admitted, that Button has shown to both Honda and Frank Williams, the man who gave him his start to F1.

calm down a bit fella. you're reading too much into this.

ok, lets look at the facts. Dave R was being a bit mean with the pennies, everyone knows that. He obviously misjudged Buttons performance and was looking at a bit of an unexpected performance payout that he hadn't budgeted for. why he was so worried is another question because the money he would recoup in final position standings would dwarf the performance bonus anyway by finishing 3rd but we do know he owed Button a lot of money in bonuses that he was haggleing over.

the official stated reason for the move was Honda not committing to BAR at the time. there was a lot of chat about them buying an outfit and it wasn't at all sure to be BAR. So, i ask you this. where would BAR be today with some customer engine and no manufacturer support? I dont think Button was being disloyal to Honda, I think he was shat upon by the principle and was unsure wether Honda were staying with BAR anyway.

as for being disloyal to Frank, then i think there is a large slice of truth in there but we all know this is a business and a big boys game so perhaps we should take the beer goggles off and accept it for what it is.

as for my asanine statement. I assume you are refering to the fact that I'm hung like a donkey and not the other meaning otherwise you might like to reconsider that chice of word in relation to my further explanation :p :

;)

[Valve Bounce]

So, did bunsen want to go to Williams at the time because he was being stitched or was it because he thought, as you now state belatedly, that he thought Honda might not be commiting to BAR? It all sounds like Donkey's Balls doesn't it?

[Dazz9908]

Honda are in a mess. I bet that was an incredibly frustrating job!

Who's next?

Nick Fry

One would hope, He's no leader!

[Flat.tyres]

So, did bunsen want to go to Williams at the time because he was being stitched or was it because he thought, as you now state belatedly, that he thought Honda might not be commiting to BAR? It all sounds like Donkey's Balls doesn't it?

in his contract, it stated that he had an opt out clause if Honda didn't commit which they did actually do but not until after Button signed for Williams. thats why the contract with Williams was retrospectivly ruled against.

would Button have moved from a up and coming team if he was being treated fairly is anyones guess but I just know the facts.

have I explained it to your satisfaction now and what's the standing of my Donkey properties as there's a frisky little Spannish ass round here that I don't trust. :D

[Valve Bounce]

in his contract, it stated that he had an opt out clause if Honda didn't commit which they did actually do but not until after Button signed for Williams. thats why the contract with Williams was retrospectivly ruled against.

would Button have moved from a up and coming team if he was being treated fairly is anyones guess but I just know the facts.

have I explained it to your satisfaction now and what's the standing of my Donkey properties as there's a frisky little Spannish ass round here that I don't trust. :D

I can only say that finally, you have shown that your intimate details of bunsen's contract are impeccable.
Watch out for that ass though, it has a nasty kick.

[Flat.tyres]

I can only say that finally, you have shown that your intimate details of bunsen's contract are impeccable.
Watch out for that ass though, it has a nasty kick.

:up:

[Alsicole]

De Ferran was never going to be a technical director, thats not what he was hired for.

He was supposed to be the link between the drivers and the team, to be able to articulate what they wanted back to the factory. It always was a role that wasn't going to be very strong or important and he once he realised that there was a limited amount he could contribute he wasn't happy.

It was a role that was pretty redundant from day one. Jenson seems to visit the factory quite regularly in an effort to keep morale high, and to keep himself fully involved, so Gil's not needed to do this.

Interestingly GDF was at the Honda F1 Open Day on Sunday, wandering round and chatting to the fans and generally being involved. It seems like odd behaviour to go to all that effort and then hand in your notice on Monday morning. If I knew I was leaving, I doubt I'd have turned up.

[ioan]

Interestingly GDF was at the Honda F1 Open Day on Sunday, wandering round and chatting to the fans and generally being involved. It seems like odd behaviour to go to all that effort and then hand in your notice on Monday morning. If I knew I was leaving, I doubt I'd have turned up.

Very professional thing to do.

[Valve Bounce]

Very professional thing to do.

Yes it is. Maybe his departure wasn't bitter - he may have something better to occupy himself with.