Agree or Disagree

[call_me_andrew]

With apologies to Benjamin Franklin…

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/watbf.jpg

In the interest of fairness, I will post this on the Champ Car forum.

[RGM Fan]

Yeah, joining the IRL will fix everything. That way 30 cars can race in front 8,000 fans every week.

[FerrrariF1]

With apologies to Benjamin Franklin…

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/watbf.jpg

In the interest of fairness, I will post this on the Champ Car forum.

Well if this is in regards to merger....the answer is NO.....
TG had plenty of opportunity to bring the two series together and in the end threw a monkey wrench into the proceedings. Bottom line if TG is involved I say NO to merger. If TG is not part of the merger then I am all for it....

[Fangio]

Up until last year I thought it was possible, but they have nothing in common anymore except 4 open wheels. The IRL has taken CARTs place, and CCWS is looking for opportunities that leave there traditions in the dust. In the future they might only have 4 or 5 races in the USA. With no ovals and standing starts....it`s time to let the merger go.

They don`t actively try to undermine each other anymore either. Hidden behind the bushes though, is the real enemy, ISC/Daytona. The IRL is thinking of going back to Phoenix, where CCWS will be having a street race. A race that struggled to get a date thanks to Nascar, and got pushed to December.
Funny that ISC might give the IRL a freebee at PIR....not funny at all.

[RGM Fan]

Up until last year I thought it was possible, but they have nothing in common anymore except 4 open wheels. The IRL has taken CARTs place, and CCWS is looking for opportunities that leave there traditions in the dust. In the future they might only have 4 or 5 races in the USA. With no ovals and standing starts....it`s time to let the merger go.

They don`t actively try to undermine each other anymore either. Hidden behind the bushes though, is the real enemy, ISC/Daytona. The IRL is thinking of going back to Phoenix, where CCWS will be having a street race. A race that struggled to get a date thanks to Nascar, and got pushed to December.
Funny that ISC might give the IRL a freebee at PIR....not funny at all.


Actually the two are still working to undermind each other. CC put Denver on the schedule with little to no intention of ever running it primarily to block the IRL from putting on a race there.

For their part the IRL is planning events on traditional cart weekends, often at the same time, and have inked an non-competive clause with SMI, ISC and possibly Dover to keep CC off of their ovals.

The long term plan for CC is to have probably 20-22 races, probably 10 in the US, three in Canada, Mexico, England, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Australia and China. There will probably be ovals at somepoint, but I'm gussing Rio and Eurospeedway. Feildwise I think the goal is 24 cars and be a feeder series for F-1 and NASCAR, and with the level of talent they're bringing in through the Atlantics they can certainlly do it.

As far as the long term plan for the IRL... Does anyone have any idea? They don't really seem to have a game plan other than leverage the Indy 500 as much as possible and go after NASCAR fan.

[mark123]

of the two series, you have to conceed that the IRL is in much better shape then Champcar, which is basically a series for seat buyers to race on temp street tracks. the only way the two will unify is if one goes belly up, and you can be sure that it wont be the IRL going broke.

[FerrrariF1]

of the two series, you have to conceed that the IRL is in much better shape then Champcar, which is basically a series for seat buyers to race on temp street tracks. the only way the two will unify is if one goes belly up, and you can be sure that it wont be the IRL going broke.


Very funny however very untrue....George is only as good as the Hulman family money.....all it takes is Mrs Hulman to yank the purse strings and George will be broke...all it takes is for Mrs Hulman to put the Speedway up for sale and what will the IRL have?

The IRL is only in around because of the Indy 500.....sell the Speedway to ISC and they may just put a NASCAR race on Memorial Day weekend.

George had his chance to take off his emperor hat and bring the two series together. Everytime it comes close George backs out.....just like the man who cried wolf. Well he cried wolf to many times and Champcar now has turned thier back an any merger talks which has left Mario in tears. Well too bad Mario you should have known that no one trusts Tony George any longer. Even AJ Foyt admitted several weeks back that the Indy 500 HAS NEVER returned to what it once was and that is a shame. The greatest spectacle in racing is now just another race.

[RGM Fan]

of the two series, you have to conceed that the IRL is in much better shape then Champcar, which is basically a series for seat buyers to race on temp street tracks. the only way the two will unify is if one goes belly up, and you can be sure that it wont be the IRL going broke.

Outside of the Indy 500 the IRL is on lifesupport. From what I've seen looking at the ratings they seem to be able to capture the casual racing fan when they're not up against NASCAR, but go up against NASCAR and their ratings plummet. The only places they put a decent amount of fans in the stands is Texas, other than that the IRL race is a loser for the track, part of a ticket deal, or both.

There were maybe 8,000 fans at Watkins Glen, less than half of them paid for the tickets, and the purse was what, almost a half million? Do you have any idea how much money the Glen lost on that weekend? The IRL can't substain that.

Milka Duno will be named Rookie of the Year, despite the fact she's wholly unqualfied to drive and can't even finish a race.

Also, even with better than CC tv numbers At least six of the 18 regular cars are propped up by TG to some extent because they can't get sponsorship. Koskuke Matsuura, Sarah Fisher and Ed Carpenter are all ride buyers.

Next year looks even worse for the IRL. MIS will be gone, so is AJ's primary sponsorship. Sam, Dario and Scott Sharp will probably be gone, and there aren't alot of talented drivers in the IPS waiting in the wings, although I hear A.J. Fike is available.

[Jonesi]

of the two series, you have to conceed that the IRL is in much better shape then Champcar, which is basically a series for seat buyers to race on temp street tracks. the only way the two will unify is if one goes belly up, and you can be sure that it wont be the IRL going broke.

The only reason the IRL appears to be in better shape is TG spends (loses) more money to make it so. Which means the IRL is more likely to go broke first.
(BTW Over the winter he sold his half of the Chicago track to ISC. No reason was ever given, but most likely was the need for operating cash.)

[RGM Fan]

In all fairness CC is hanging by a few threads as well. Until they can find a TV partner, engine manufacture and a title sponsor they could go away rather quickly as well.

[Jonesi]

snip...The only places they put a decent amount of fans in the stands is Texas, other than that the IRL race is a loser for the track, part of a ticket deal, or both.

There were maybe 8,000 fans at Watkins Glen, less than half of them paid for the tickets, and the purse was what, almost a half million? Do you have any idea how much money the Glen lost on that weekend? The IRL can't substain that.


There's a couple of tracks that get good turn outs, most ones that don't have a cup race and want one like Kentucky.

IRL purses have always been at least $1million, despite nearly empty stands at many tracks. This plus the tire/fuel/electrics deal (if in the top 25) valued years ago by the IRL to be worth over $1 million a car per year. Leads me to surmise that TG loses $1mil a race and car, or about $40 million each year.

http://www.indycar.com/stats/boxscores/2007/watkinsglen_07082007.pdf

[Jonesi]

In all fairness CC is hanging by a few threads as well. Until they can find a TV partner, engine manufacture and a title sponsor they could go away rather quickly as well.

They really don't need a engine manufacture, Cosworth is doing the engines just fine, they need a sponsor to pay to put their name on the valve covers. ;-)

[RGM Fan]

They really don't need a engine manufacture, Cosworth is doing the engines just fine, they need a sponsor to pay to put their name on the valve covers. ;-)

Basically my point was CC needs money and engine badging, title sponsor and a TV deal are the three most likely options. If they can't start doing some promotion and raise the purses they're going to be in real trouble. Right now one or two teams leaving could demolish the series.

Right now Champ Car needs money because their events work and are well attended. The IRL needs to figure out what works as far as drawing in a crowd and fix their on track formula since no one can pass.

[EagleEye]

In all fairness CC is hanging by a few threads as well. Until they can find a TV partner, engine manufacture and a title sponsor they could go away rather quickly as well.

Correct. And, add to that better TV ratings (due to promoting the series), name "Indycar" and they are in a much better position. (Note, not a much better series, but a much better position.)

No matter how much TG spends, the IRL/I500 are not going anywhere...as for CCWS, the good news about Cottman went sour with SJ staying on board....

[Komahawk]

Reading this thread I get the idea that certain people would rather like to see both series dying than joing the other side. So they can say "well, at least we don't have to deal with those other gys anymore".

[-Helix-]

Reading this thread I get the idea that certain people would rather like to see both series dying than joing the other side. So they can say "well, at least we don't have to deal with those other gys anymore".

That's about where I am. At this point I just want to see both the IRL and CCWS keel over and make way for ONE GOOD series.

One that doesn't put all it's promotion and marketing on the Indianapolis 500. (therefore no more calling them "INDYcars" or any reference to INDY in the name - call it... The American Open Wheel SERIES so that people know they race more than one race. And refer to the cars as OPEN WHEELERS like they are. They race at more tracks than just Indy, why call them Indycars?) Have a "Racing Teams Union" to get stuff done and not allow the suits with the big wallets to have complete control.

[Rantanamo]

agreed. I love watching both, but they both need to die and come back with new leadership.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The only thing I find very encouaging about this thread is most people know that racing is broke now and it needs something to fix it. 2 or 3 years back I started beating the merger drum and got my butt kicked for it. There were a few hard core IRL heads and CART heads that just told me I was nuts. Then 3 years ago when Toyota was getting out of the IRL, all the Champ Car guys thought this would bring Tony back to KK to talk merger. When CART died, all the thought was that TG should have been allowed to buy up CART and if he had a plan that addressed the stakeholders in CART outside of the teams, the other races, he might have done it.

We need a merger, and I am glad to see people are realizing it. I do say though Tony isn't going to back down likely unless his Mommy tells him to play nice with the other boys, and if they haven't had that conversation already, then I guess they aren't going to, because there is no way the IRL is an financially viable operation as it stands. It looks professional and is better run at this point, but it isn't drawing the people it needs to at all its venues, and it is saddled with a car that isn't attractive to the car nut, a formula that is one dimensional ( something that Indy was NEVER before ) and it is saddled with the fact that something is missing. Just like the other guys, everyone knows that any championship is like having an asterisk beside it......because you didn't beat EVERYONE....