F1 will not return to Indianapolis

[Scheckterfan54]

The Indianapolis Star is reporting that Bernie and IMS officials could not reach an agreement on a sanctioning fee. In turn, F1 will not be in Indianapolis in 2008. As an Indianapolis resident, I am very sad to see it go. Will it be relocated to another U.S. site? Maybe vegas?

[luvracin]

Dammit! I didn't go this year and so was planning on attending again next year!!!

I'll keep my fingers crossed until I see an official FIA/IMS announcement.

[ArrowsFA1]

I'll keep my fingers crossed until I see an official FIA/IMS announcement.
Here's the link to the IS story -


A stormy eight-year relationship between Indianapolis Motor Speedway and Formula One ended today with the announcement the international racing series would not return in 2008.
IMS chairman Tony George and F-1 boss Bernie Ecclestone could not reach an agreement on a sanctioning fee to continue the U.S. Grand Prix. George had set today as a deadline for a new contract.
Track spokesman Ron Green said both sides are leaving the door open for possible future events.
The relationship deteriorated dramatically after the 2005 race when only six cars competed because of safety concerns over Michelin tires.
The decision leaves the U.S. without an F-1 event and follows failed attempts at other venues, including Long Beach, Calif., Watkins Glen, N.Y., and Phoenix. Ecclestone has explored putting a race in Las Vegas but no agreement has been announced.
The Speedway's 2.6-mile road course won't go unused next year. MotoGP, the motorcycle equivalent of Formula One, is scheduled to visit in September 2008.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070712/SPORTS01/707120523

[SGWilko]

The Indianapolis Star is reporting that Bernie and IMS officials could not reach an agreement on a sanctioning fee. In turn, F1 will not be in Indianapolis in 2008. As an Indianapolis resident, I am very sad to see it go. Will it be relocated to another U.S. site? Maybe vegas?

Jeez, Bernie will sell his Grandmother just to make a few bob.....

....oh wait, he already has, five times!!! :crazy:

[MOliscous]

Here is the AP article:

F1 Won't Return to Indianapolis in 2008
Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:08 AM EDT
The Associated Press

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Formula One's U.S. Grand Prix won't return to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway next year. The race will not be held at Indy in 2008 after eight years at the track, spokesman Ron Green said Thursday. He declined to give other details, but said speedway CEO Tony George would speak later in the day.

George had set Thursday as the deadline for reaching an agreement to extend the contract with F1. Indianapolis, the only American race on the F1 schedule, draws one of the biggest crowds on the circuit.

George, who met with F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone last month during U.S. Grand Prix weekend in Indianapolis, had said he was confident a new deal would be reached.

But Ecclestone had repeatedly said F1 did not need to race in the United States. He mentioned the possibility of moving the U.S. Grand Prix to New York or Las Vegas.

The 2.6-mile, 13-turn road course was built inside the speedway's famous oval to attract the F1 race.
Attendance figures are not released at Indianapolis, but estimates have been around 125,000 each of the past six years. The inaugural race in 2000 drew more than 200,000.

The event was marred in 2005 when 14 of the 20 drivers pulled off the track just before the start over concerns about the safety of the Michelin tires used by seven teams. Afterward, George refused to wave the checkered flag or join Michael Schumacher in the winner's circle.

Last year's negotiations to extend the deal dragged into August before the two sides agreed to a one-year deal. Speedway officials had said they wanted a more permanent solution this time.

Despite F1's absence, the speedway could still be the site of three races next year as track officials expect to announce with MotoGP, the international motorcycle racing series, next week.

Besides the Indianapolis 500, the speedway also is the site of NASCAR's Allstate 400 at the Brickyard on July 29.

[BenRoethig]

The Indianapolis Star is reporting that Bernie and IMS officials could not reach an agreement on a sanctioning fee. In turn, F1 will not be in Indianapolis in 2008. As an Indianapolis resident, I am very sad to see it go. Will it be relocated to another U.S. site? Maybe vegas?

When it comes right down to it, Bernie wants a sanctioning fee based on F1's international popularity. IMS was only willing to pay one based on the popularity of the race itself. I don't see F1 coming back to the U.S. anytime soon unless some Pro-F1 billionaire builds a state of the art track specifically for F1 outside a city like Vegas or New York. F1 isn't all that popular and only a true fan would be willing the chance the kind of fee Bernie wants.

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: After the 2005 FIAsco... and dwindling attendance, it's not surprising that Indy choose not to renew the Formula 1 contract !!!

:p : Tight wad Bernie turned off the casual fans over here by repeatedly saying Formula 1 doesn't need the United States !!!

I would like to hear Ferrari, Mercedes, Toyota, Red Bull, and Honda's response after being advised that...

Indy opt'ed to drop Formula 1 !!!

[Dave B]

The economist in me is saddenned that F1 might not be in such a big market next year, but the racing fan in me won't be sad to see the back of that stupid Mickey Mouse infield.

[tinchote]

I'm sad for the US fans, but personally I won't miss that race.

[Storm]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6760617.stm

I think we do need a race in USA, maybe some other track then...inspite of that mickey mouse track at Indy, it did have a great last corner and the mighty straight and we did manage to see some decent racing there (2005 excluding).

I guess I would like to see a race at Laguna Seca!

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Although Indy never was the most suitable track for a Formula 1 race... we actually have better road courses here in the States, Tony George did spend ~ 60 million to set-up & upgrade the facility to meet Bernie's & Mad Max's demands.

The initial race had ~ 200,000 plus fans, but... After the 2005 FIAsco... when only six cars actually ran, the fan base dwindled down to less than ~75,000 !!!

The average racing fan lost interest back in 2005, after the FIA didn't put on a show...

and Bernie's rants about F-1 not needing an United States Grand Prix, certainly didn't appeal to the man in the street.

It's a loss for a few of us hard core fans... but... there are plenty of other forms of entertainment hustling for spectators.

The biggest hit will be to the automobile manufacturers and Red Bull, who are using Formula 1 to advertise their brand name.

[luvracin]

The biggest hit will be to the automobile manufacturers and Red Bull, who are using Formula 1 to advertise their brand name.

.....and that, in the end, will hurt Bernie and F1. Of course, I fully expect Bernie to deny that.

[truefan72]

The economist in me is saddenned that F1 might not be in such a big market next year, but the racing fan in me won't be sad to see the back of that stupid Mickey Mouse infield.

There was nothing wrong with that track, please let's not get into comparing tracks out there. On pure track configuration and style. Monaco, Hungaro Ring, Hockenheim, Nurburgring, China, Interlagos, Fuji, boring Silverstone, and even Monza have less characteristics than Indy. Indy had one exciting long straight, one shorter straight and a challenging infield. I can't imagien what is wrong with that. Only Canada, Spa and Turkey IMO have some real character.

I won't stand by and see the track denegrated in such a way. As to the 2005 situation, it was abundantly clear that Michelin and the teams overreacted to what was essentially a Toyota problem of underinflating their tyres.

Bottom line is that Money grubbing, greedy, and ego-manaical Bernie is squarly to blame. You guys watch, Silverstone is next (which btw did not sell out this year) followed by other tracks in the future. He will end up only staging races on tracks that cowher to his demented fiscal needs in markets less attractive to F1.

Bernie and Max Mosley combined have completely ruined the sport and both really need to go before this gets completely out of hand

[call_me_andrew]

I don't think attendence was an issue. Indy had more seats than any other track in F1, and drew as many as any other F1 race.

A race in Vegas will have to be pried out of Champ Car's cold, dead hands.

The more I think about it, it seems Daytona might be too bumpy for F1.

[N. Jones]

Damnit, I wanted to go back there too; especially since it was only a three and a half hour drive....

[grassrootsracer]

F*ck you Bernie Ecclestone. There, I feel much better now. His demand for exorbitant sanctioning fees is largely, though not solely, to blame. It seems that the chances of any race here are bleak, as there isn't enough fan interest to raise the needed revenue and the government won't (and shouldn't, imho) subsidize the race. When there are better ROI for other series, such as those taxi cabs, why bother?

To say that F1 doesn't need the United States is pure hogwash. We are one of the largest markets for BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Honda, Toyota, and Red Bull, not to mention the other sponsors.

If only we could have Watkins Glen back, or a race at Miller or Laguna Seca...

[AndyRAC]

While Bernie has done a lot of good for F1, there's no doubt now that he is ruining it. Asking countries for stupid money to stage a race, you shouldn't have to pay to stage a race, they should be awarded by the F1A to the countries that showcase the sport in its best light. Not those that pay and make the most money. I'm getting cheesed off with all this, who's next? Silverstone, Monza??
Another thing, funny how yet another track were Moto GP are planning to go to, F1 pulls out. Moto GP is no longer going to go to Turkey, my thinking is that Moto GP just shows F1 up as a high speed procession, not RACING!!!
There are not many tracks were they both visit, are there? Catalunya, China...

[veeten]

let's remember the last time they had a GP in Vegas...

http://home.cinci.rr.com/usgp/history/lasvegas.html There's an improvement... :rotflmao:

a track Tilke could love... :p :

[wedge]

There was nothing wrong with that track, please let's not get into comparing tracks out there. On pure track configuration and style. Monaco, Hungaro Ring, Hockenheim, Nurburgring, China, Interlagos, Fuji, boring Silverstone, and even Monza have less characteristics than Indy. Indy had one exciting long straight, one shorter straight and a challenging infield. I can't imagien what is wrong with that. Only Canada, Spa and Turkey IMO have some real character.

I won't stand by and see the track denegrated in such a way. As to the 2005 situation, it was abundantly clear that Michelin and the teams overreacted to what was essentially a Toyota problem of underinflating their tyres.

Bottom line is that Money grubbing, greedy, and ego-manaical Bernie is squarly to blame. You guys watch, Silverstone is next (which btw did not sell out this year) followed by other tracks in the future. He will end up only staging races on tracks that cowher to his demented fiscal needs in markets less attractive to F1.

Bernie and Max Mosley combined have completely ruined the sport and both really need to go before this gets completely out of hand

:up:

I was planning to go to Indy as well, which is a darn shame. The tickets are ridiculously cheap, compared to most other races, and Thursday is open to fans.

Bernie wants to turn F1 into a hospitality event. :down:

Silverstone RIP :(

It's amazing how history repeats itself and goes full circle. Someone really needs to stand up to Bernie's antics.

[veeten]

It's amazing how history repeats itself and goes full circle. Someone really needs to stand up to Bernie's antics.

it's not suprising, just ask Chris Pook. These were the same reasons that he and the Long Beach Grand Prix Assoc. said 'no' after Bernie made similar attempts during contract re-negotiations for the USGP-West in '83. And just like George has the Indy 500, Brickyard 400, and MotoGP for '08, Pook had CART ready to take up where F1 had left.

The second was Detriot, where yet again Bernie just couldn't be satisfied with long-term grownth and lost that race as well.

Then came Vegas, Dallas, and Phoenix, all staged in the worst time on the calendar; Summer. Setting up grandstands in the blazing hot sun and expecting big returns turned into a humbling lesson that had him leave the States out of F1 for nearly 2 decades. We hoped that things would be different when the announcment of Indy as the new USGP was made.

Well, five+ years later, the same old-same old... :dozey:

[BobbyC]

Bruton Smith might just add a road course to utilise The Strip's grandstands and add a paddock and challenging infield section with Alan Wilson to race in Las Vegas on a road course built around the car parks of The Strip and Dirt Track, or on the Midway of The Strip, or rebuild the road course off Gate 3 with a permanent grandstand and garage.

The Strip would have enough grandstands but in the United States, attendance is preferred on-course with camping, in the infield, not in grandstands. If you have watched the Daytona road course, the fans prefer the infield, not the grandstand.

http://www.lvms.com/corporate_marketing/facility_map/

[Malbec]

IndyGP was a culmination of a series of things, namely Bernie wanting to break into the states, Tony George wanting a jewel in the crown to go alongside the Indy 500, a circuit that would be up to FIA F1 safety standards and an owner prepared to make a significant loss just for the 'kudos' of having F1 around.

There aren't that many circuit owners in the US willing to pay to have their circuits done up AND pay Bernie through the nose for a guaranteed loss for the privilege of having F1 there.

Truth is that having done deals for new GPs across the world Bernie needed a little calendar space, and the US simply had to make way....

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

too bad. i was considering going to the gp next year.

[ShiftingGears]

I'm not sorry that that track is gone - F1 in the US hasn't seen a decent circuit since Long Beach. The question is...where now for F1 in the US? I can't see Bernie just leaving it.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

whatever its reincarnation, and i hope it's soon, i'll be there.

[april]

The economist in me is saddenned that F1 might not be in such a big market next year, but the racing fan in me won't be sad to see the back of that stupid Mickey Mouse infield.

Couldn't agree with you more, Mr. Brockman. Staging the competition on an infield road course made it very difficult for even the most hardcore and ardent fan to embrace the event or to see it as anything BUT mickey mouse. ANY natural terrain road course would have been a better choice. And as much as I, personally, would like to see a US date on the Gran Prix calendar, I seriously doubt that the average Honda or Toyota buyer, or RedBull drinker, in the US was even aware that there WAS a USGP! Let alone where it was or even what kind of vehicles competed in it.

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Losing the United States Grand Prix makes NO SENSE to anyone other than Bernie !!!

All the sponsors... including the Manufacturers... have got to be angry !!!

In many cases... such as Ferrari... Mercedes... Toyota... BMW... and Honda, the U S is their BIGGEST MARKET !!!

[Gannex]

F*ck you Bernie Ecclestone. . . . His demand for exorbitant sanctioning fees is largely, though not solely, to blame. . . . To say that F1 doesn't need the United States is pure hogwash. We are one of the largest markets for BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Honda, Toyota, and Red Bull, not to mention the other sponsors...

:dozey: Losing the United States Grand Prix makes NO SENSE to anyone other than Bernie !!!

All the sponsors... including the Manufacturers... have got to be angry !!!

In many cases... such as Ferrari... Mercedes... Toyota... BMW... and Honda, the U S is their BIGGEST MARKET !!!
Well then let them pay for the race, trumper. (And welcome back, by the way.) You seem to forget that Bernie is the CEO of Formula 1. He has one job only and that is to maximise the profits and long-term prospects of Formula 1. When Bernie says that there's no money in America for F1, he is speaking about advertising revenue money, not money that comes from selling automobiles. That is BMW's job, and Mercedes's job, not the job of F1. The job of F1 is to return large advertising revenues to CVC, who owns F1, not Bernie. He owns just 15%.

Because he is such a small shareholder and his employers, CVC, own 85% of the business, this means that if Bernie is being evil and money-grubbing, as his critics say, you should at least give him credit for grubbing on behalf of his employers, not himself. I give him credit for focussing on his job as CEO -- keeping F1 profitable and widely watched, now and in the future. No one, no one on this planet, could have done a better job of that, these last several decades, than Bernie Ecclestone.

I love F1. I love Williams. I am not beholden to the manufacturers or the money-men. One of the people I thank the most for preserving and even improving F1 is Bernie Ecclestone. Stop knocking the man. If we lose a track here or there, that is little price to pay, and far better than losing the spirit of the entire series, its glamour, its sophistication, its engineering excellence, and its sheer excitement as the best form of motorsport that there has ever been.

[truefan72]

Couldn't agree with you more, Mr. Brockman. Staging the competition on an infield road course made it very difficult for even the most hardcore and ardent fan to embrace the event or to see it as anything BUT mickey mouse. ANY natural terrain road course would have been a better choice. And as much as I, personally, would like to see a US date on the Gran Prix calendar, I seriously doubt that the average Honda or Toyota buyer, or RedBull drinker, in the US was even aware that there WAS a USGP! Let alone where it was or even what kind of vehicles competed in it.

That's just ridiculous. The F1 event in the US is known to anybody who cared about motorsports, or who turned on a TV. Sadly it was the only real F1 race that got decent press coverage nationally. So even the "average American" knew about it.

Also, I completely fail to see what the issue is with the infield. ALL F1 courses are practically infields. That arguments is just so lame. It is a natural terrain road course with a lake and golf course on that terrain. People forget that Indy is a 2.5 mile oval so it's circumference is larger than most circuits. It can comfortably hold most circuits in its infield alone.

I suspect many of you have never been to Indy and would be amazed at its sheer size. So before you call it a Mickey mouse track, please do your research first and then bring a better argument.

Also, The race actually brought in more people than almost all the tracks on the calendar every year. Of course it wouldn't be a sellout. BECAUSE A SELLOUT WOULD MEAN 350-365,000 people if you filled up the grandstand and the infield seats. and the camp areas in the infield that would/could be made available.

so bringing in about 145,000 which they did on Sunday, 95,000 on Saturday 53,000 on Friday, and an amazing 27,000 on Thursday, are numbers that any race track would be happy with.

Couple that with the fact that the race was aired on broadcast this year and got about an average of 6.7 Nielsen which would come out to about 15 million in their new total audience matrix, and you see sizeable numbers, which of course Greedy Bernie was/is too happy to cash in.

Also, the sponsors of the race for the US grand Prix were some of the biggest and best businesses, The TV coverage alone featured, Ford, BMW, Mercedes. Toyota, Red Bull, K&R, and many others, and if you were at the race you would have noticed all the booths and promo/marketing endeavors present there. It would have been nice for you to come to the USGP and see all the fanfare around it. You might have had a different opinion of it.

As for the Indy circuit, this loss will be easily recouped by staging another Nascar race there. There are a few courses that host two races already on their series. Adding a second Indy might diminish the value of the Brickyard 400 a bit, but conversely will provide fans, nascar, and Indy with another great and hugely profitable race. and those NASCAR races average about an 18 share on the Nielsen ratings.

Your comments are one of ignorance. I am sure you didn't know that The US GP and particularly Indianapolis had been with Formula 1 right from their inaugural season in 1950. It was also considered a huge honor to be able to win the race. The first sanctioned F1 GP in Australia was in 1985, which prior to that I am sure was either not considered good enough to host a race, or was not desired enough by the powers to be to bring the race there.

And if you want to go back to 1928 when the first Grand prix race (non F1 sanctioned) was held in Australia, that is still 20 years later than the first grand prix race in the untied states.

So I think the US has had a long history with F1, even in its darkest days, still saw fit to set races in Phoenix, Detroit, Las Vegas, and in some years even had two races. US fans and motorsports enthusiast and even many in Nascar all remember and know about F1. Many say, they watch the races before they go out and some try to get out to some races.

Let's just leave it at the fact that Bernie wanted more money and Indy said enough is enough. Trying to now make Indy look like an unworthy venue is as lame as Bernie's attempts to manufacture new ways to squeeze out more money from Indy.

[truefan72]

Well then let them pay for the race, trumper. (And welcome back, by the way.) You seem to forget that Bernie is the CEO of Formula 1. He has one job only and that is to maximise the profits and long-term prospects of Formula 1. When Bernie says that there's no money in America for F1, he is speaking about advertising revenue money, not money that comes from selling automobiles. That is BMW's job, and Mercedes's job, not the job of F1. The job of F1 is to return large advertising revenues to CVC, who owns F1, not Bernie. He owns just 15%.

Because he is such a small shareholder and his employers, CVC, own 85% of the business, this means that if Bernie is being evil and money-grubbing, as his critics say, you should at least give him credit for grubbing on behalf of his employers, not himself. I give him credit for focussing on his job as CEO -- keeping F1 profitable and widely watched, now and in the future. No one, no one on this planet, could have done a better job of that, these last several decades, than Bernie Ecclestone.

I love F1. I love Williams. I am not beholden to the manufacturers or the money-men. One of the people I thank the most for preserving and even improving F1 is Bernie Ecclestone. Stop knocking the man. If we lose a track here or there, that is little price to pay, and far better than losing the spirit of the entire series, its glamour, its sophistication, its engineering excellence, and its sheer excitement as the best form of motorsport that there has ever been.


I'll eagerly anticipate these same feelings when Silverstone is on the chopping block. And that is a real possibility. No track is safe

[Gannex]

I'll eagerly anticipate these same feelings when Silverstone is on the chopping block. And that is a real possibility. No track is safe
truefan, I would hate to see Silverstone go. I go there every year. From 2008 onwards, I was hoping, planning even, on going to Indy every year, because I am migrating to the US in a couple of weeks. I care about these tracks, and I do not want to lose them. But I don't want the choice of tracks to be up to a committee, whose remit is the welfare of F1 fans, with a regard to historic significance. I don't want F1 to become the province of the bearded brigade, full of reverence for the days of Fangio and Moss, with no concept at all of what will appeal to a sophisticated mass audience in the twenty-first century. Yes, you can dream of F1 like it used to be, run by racers, but it would be a disaster. Better that Bernie run it, on commercial principles, and the quality venues will take care of themselves.

[Fangio]

Maybe there should be a Middle-East/Asia F1....and one for the west.

Bernie is way past his sale date. :rolleyes:

[trumperZ06]

Well then let them pay for the race, trumper. (And welcome back, by the way.) You seem to forget that Bernie is the CEO of Formula 1. He has one job only and that is to maximise the profits and long-term prospects of Formula 1. When Bernie says that there's no money in America for F1, he is speaking about advertising revenue money, not money that comes from selling automobiles. That is BMW's job, and Mercedes's job, not the job of F1. The job of F1 is to return large advertising revenues to CVC, who owns F1, not Bernie. He owns just 15%

Because he is such a small shareholder and his employers, CVC, own 85% of the business, this means that if Bernie is being evil and money-grubbing, as his critics say, you should at least give him credit for grubbing on behalf of his employers, not himself. I give him credit for focussing on his job as CEO -- keeping F1 profitable and widely watched, now and in the future. No one, no one on this planet, could have done a better job of that, these last several decades, than Bernie Ecclestone.

I love F1. I love Williams. I am not beholden to the manufacturers or the money-men. One of the people I thank the most for preserving and even improving F1 is Bernie Ecclestone. Stop knocking the man. If we lose a track here or there, that is little price to pay, and far better than losing the spirit of the entire series, its glamour, its sophistication, its engineering excellence, and its sheer excitement as the best form of motorsport that there has ever been.

Hey Gannex,

The "CREDIT" for losing the fans interest in Formula 1 goes directly to Mad Max and his henchmen who put on the rediculous specticle at Indy back in 2005. Tony George saw attendence dwindle to < 75,000 (from as many as 225,000 +) fans after that FIAsco.

Yep your boys... Ole Bernie & Mad Max shot themselves in the foot back in 2005... and I said then, that would probably be the end of F-1... here in the States.

Bernie & Mad Max have already ruined the "Sport" with their rules & regulations... now they will financially ruin the series.

We know that today... Ferrari is in Formula 1 to SELL CARS...

Mercedes... BMW... Toyota... and Honda are in Formula 1 to get their brand out in front of the public. So in answer to your arguement... the Sponsors are already spending upwards of 400 Million dollars/year on EACH TEAM... to get brand recognition!!!

I expect that the automobile manufacturers are sorely disapointed and downright angry over Bernie's actions. In fact, Mercedes has already gone on record telling Bernie...

the United States is Mercedes...

NUMBER 1 and MOST IMPORTANT MARKET !!!

Now please quit "grubbing"... attempting to champion these two clowns...

and get over the fact that Williams ran BMW off... only to see BMW/Sauber replace Williams at the sharpe end of the stick !!!

Simply put... Formula 1... in leaving the U S Market... hurts Formula 1 a lot more than it does the United States fans.

A few of us "die-hards" will miss seeing the F-1 Circus... but the average fan will soon fine another series !!!

:D Oh & Gannex

It's always good to have a chat with you !!!

[klm-607]

Thanks Bernie - http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/38692/

More here: http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/38701/

Damn, now not only does the U.S. not have any WRC event (or coverage), but F1 is going away too.
I guess I'll blame NASCAR for their monopoly on Racing in America. God I hate NASCAR!!!

Maybe they'll revamp Watkins Glen, or Mid-Ohio & the USGP can be held there??? Yeah, I doubt it too.

[Roamy]

indy was a bad choice for f1 and las vegas will be bad as well. Watkins Glen is the answer

[trumperZ06]

indy was a bad choice for f1 and las vegas will be bad as well. Watkins Glen is the answer

:D As much as I'ed luv to see the Circus at Road Atlanta or VIR... Walkins Glen is more logical !!!

[Madmonk]

The USGP at IMS was always a little star crossed, but there are no winners in this situation. F1, the Speedway, the manufacturers, the sponsors, the City of Indianapolis and the fans all lose something as a result of Bernie's so called "business" decision. The latter doesn't surprise me; I don't think Formula One has ever respected or appreciated its American fanbase. But for the sake of all parties involved, I hope a deal can be reached to bring the Formula One Circus back home again in Indiana, where it belongs.

[RacinRandy]

Maybe Tony will start his own F1 series. I think he's done something like that before.

The other thought is a duel between Tony and Bernie at 20 paces. At least we would get rid of one idiot. Maybe both!

[april]

truefan72 - Actually, my grandfather was a juvenile court judge in Indianapolis for many years. I have been to Indianapolis many times, including to Indianapolis Motor Speedway. I stand by my original comment. The USGP was very poorly served by having been run on an infield road course. Doesn't matter if it has a lake and a golf course. Doesn't matter if the 1950 Indianapolis 500 counted towards the World Drivers' Championship. It's nothing personal. I would feel exactly the same way had the race been run on the Daytona infield, the Las Vegas infield, or the infield of any big oval.

[BobbyC]

Bernie, however, has a two-fold mould:

1. Find tracks designed by his buddy Hermann Tilke.
2. Go Champ Car style and race on more street circuits (note Singapore and Valencia.

IMS is a Kevin Forbes (track employee) layout that requires setup compromises because there are low and medium speed sections plus one high-speed section.

There is more runoff coming into the 1-2-3 complex than in many F1 first corners, and it's pavement from the oval being used as runoff, and hard racing is rewarded with crazy passes

And NASCAR with its past tyre fiascos have done a better job than the FIA ever did, or even Michelin. The tire fiasco was a byproduct of Toyota's poor choice in tire pressure and the FIA's one-tire per race rule.

Also get to tracks in markets if possible where you can advertise cigarettes!

[Hoss Ghoul]

One less race for us to watch at a decent hour...

One less track with some actual history and character...

One less megamaniacal series boss to deal with...

One more cookie cutter F1 circuit coming up...

One less reason for Speed/Fox to fork over $$$ for broadcast rights...

One less chance to see the biggest set of primma donna's outside of Hollywood...

One more reason to frown at F1's current direction...

Lots to hate and like about this decision...

[ShiftingGears]

The Indy Road course WAS cookie cutter track, as most (all?) rovals are. However I don't expect F1 to go to a circuit thats any better.

[tsarcasm]

http://www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com/news/story.php?story_id=9451

full interview of Tony George Press Conf.

ex.

GEORGE: Bernie really wants to see it stay, uninterrupted, I believe. He is a personality, a character, and he's a businessman and he's basing (this on) his years of experience of being successful. He knows he's got to look at all the opportunities for his business, and this being one of them. A lot of people think of Bernie in a lot of different ways, and I continue to have a great deal of respect for him and don't feel his personality in any way factored into the decision we mutually agreed on.
Q: Do you think you would have had the USGP next if you had just been willing to write a big enough check?

GEORGE: I suppose, but again money's not the only factor. Again, we're interested in growing this, and I don't see all the elements being there for us to do that right now. We don't have a title sponsor in hand, we don't have the commitment of national TV, and there are other things. We could agree on the date, and that would be great; we could agree on money and that would be great, but there are other things to consider.

[wmcot]

As has been stated earlier, F1 is going to end up and exclusive series in Asia and the Middle East. Wait until the British GP is axed, SPA is cancelled (again) and Australia gets sick of losing money...others will follow! Only the wealthy, oil rich Arab states and large developing countries such as India and China will be willing to pay for a GP. Maybe that's what Phillip Morris was holding out for when they stayed on as Ferrari's sponsor. Bernie can make his billions and push lung cancer at the same time!! ;(

The only thing I'm glad about is that Tony George didn't give in - effectively telling Bernie to "Stick it!"

[ShiftingGears]

As has been stated earlier, F1 is going to end up and exclusive series in Asia and the Middle East. Wait until the British GP is axed, SPA is cancelled (again) and Australia gets sick of losing money...others will follow!

I bet you won't have to wait more than 5 years before Albert Park is gone! (Maybe even 3 years)

[leopard]

indy was a bad choice for f1 and las vegas will be bad as well. Watkins Glen is the answer

Thought Las Vegas was the very equal place to host the race like Monaco ;)

[AndyRAC]

I love F1. I love Williams. I am not beholden to the manufacturers or the money-men. One of the people I thank the most for preserving and even improving F1 is Bernie Ecclestone. Stop knocking the man. If we lose a track here or there, that is little price to pay, and far better than losing the spirit of the entire series, its glamour, its sophistication, its engineering excellence, and its sheer excitement as the best form of motorsport that there has ever been.

Much as I like F1, I follow other motorsports, and I wouldn't describe it as exciting, interesting yes. At the moment Moto GP knocks it into a cocked hat for excitement.

[leopard]

I doubt it is part of F1 plan they will end up the series in Asia and Mideast, until they find the more proper places than the two regions. Although it has no passion like mostly European series, they are the best facilitated race where mostly important data of developments drawn from such races.

Maybe they will make it more selective which series is no longer suitable hosting the race by weighing the plus and minus of the said series.

[leopard]

Much as I like F1, I follow other motorsports, and I wouldn't describe it as exciting, interesting yes. At the moment Moto GP knocks it into a cocked hat for excitement. Both of them are exciting, slippery when wet

[Rudy Tamasz]

The infield section was Mickey Mouse, but the long straight with the slow turn after it was one of the few places in the whole calendar where drivers could actually pass each other.

[Sleeper]

That's just ridiculous. The F1 event in the US is known to anybody who cared about motorsports, or who turned on a TV. Sadly it was the only real F1 race that got decent press coverage nationally. So even the "average American" knew about it.

Also, I completely fail to see what the issue is with the infield. ALL F1 courses are practically infields. That arguments is just so lame. It is a natural terrain road course with a lake and golf course on that terrain. People forget that Indy is a 2.5 mile oval so it's circumference is larger than most circuits. It can comfortably hold most circuits in its infield alone.

I suspect many of you have never been to Indy and would be amazed at its sheer size. So before you call it a Mickey mouse track, please do your research first and then bring a better argument.

Also, The race actually brought in more people than almost all the tracks on the calendar every year. Of course it wouldn't be a sellout. BECAUSE A SELLOUT WOULD MEAN 350-365,000 people if you filled up the grandstand and the infield seats. and the camp areas in the infield that would/could be made available.

so bringing in about 145,000 which they did on Sunday, 95,000 on Saturday 53,000 on Friday, and an amazing 27,000 on Thursday, are numbers that any race track would be happy with.

Couple that with the fact that the race was aired on broadcast this year and got about an average of 6.7 Nielsen which would come out to about 15 million in their new total audience matrix, and you see sizeable numbers, which of course Greedy Bernie was/is too happy to cash in.

Also, the sponsors of the race for the US grand Prix were some of the biggest and best businesses, The TV coverage alone featured, Ford, BMW, Mercedes. Toyota, Red Bull, K&R, and many others, and if you were at the race you would have noticed all the booths and promo/marketing endeavors present there. It would have been nice for you to come to the USGP and see all the fanfare around it. You might have had a different opinion of it.

As for the Indy circuit, this loss will be easily recouped by staging another Nascar race there. There are a few courses that host two races already on their series. Adding a second Indy might diminish the value of the Brickyard 400 a bit, but conversely will provide fans, nascar, and Indy with another great and hugely profitable race. and those NASCAR races average about an 18 share on the Nielsen ratings.

Your comments are one of ignorance. I am sure you didn't know that The US GP and particularly Indianapolis had been with Formula 1 right from their inaugural season in 1950. It was also considered a huge honor to be able to win the race. The first sanctioned F1 GP in Australia was in 1985, which prior to that I am sure was either not considered good enough to host a race, or was not desired enough by the powers to be to bring the race there.

And if you want to go back to 1928 when the first Grand prix race (non F1 sanctioned) was held in Australia, that is still 20 years later than the first grand prix race in the untied states.

So I think the US has had a long history with F1, even in its darkest days, still saw fit to set races in Phoenix, Detroit, Las Vegas, and in some years even had two races. US fans and motorsports enthusiast and even many in Nascar all remember and know about F1. Many say, they watch the races before they go out and some try to get out to some races.

Let's just leave it at the fact that Bernie wanted more money and Indy said enough is enough. Trying to now make Indy look like an unworthy venue is as lame as Bernie's attempts to manufacture new ways to squeeze out more money from Indy.

Its interestin to read you call other people ignorant when it seems you are yourself. The drivers themselfes call Indy's infield course micky mouse, and they drive on the damn thing. In a previous post on the first page you cited Indy as (effectively) having as good as, if not better, a circuit as half the tracks on the calander. The difference between the liks of Silverstone, Hungaroring, Monaco and a few others to Indy as that the former are challanging to the drivers wereas Indy just challenges the car and frustrates the driver.

Also, you seem to have forgotten your history. Yes, the 500 was part of the championship from 50-61 (about 61 at least) but it was only after it was dropped from the calander did any of the F1 teams cross the atlantic. As far as most people are concerned, F1's history with America stems back to Watkins Glen in th 60's, not Indy.

I'm not surprised about the race being lost, but this time it will be F1 that loses out as Indy gets MotoGP next year and F1 gets what...?

On a ligher note, maybe someone should give Bernie a road map to Elkhart Lake.

[ShiftingGears]

On a ligher note, maybe someone should give Bernie a road map to Elkhart Lake.

Then he'd bring Tilke along =(

[555-04Q2]

I'll eagerly anticipate these same feelings when Silverstone is on the chopping block. And that is a real possibility. No track is safe

Just as teams and drivers come and go, so do race tracks. We mourn the loss of drivers, teams and tracks but the world still goes on.

Personally I wont be sorry to see the Indy GP gone from the calendar as it is a Micky Mouse circuit along with a few others on the F1 calendar. I am sorry to see F1 out of America again but hopefully a better track can be located for F1 racing in the USA. We need a USA GP.

[keysersoze]

Maybe so, but the Fish found some interesting lines around the place this year.

[555-04Q2]

The "CREDIT" for losing the fans interest in Formula 1 goes directly to Mad Max and his henchmen who put on the rediculous specticle at Indy back in 2005. Tony George saw attendence dwindle to < 75,000 (from as many as 225,000 +) fans after that FIAsco.

Yep your boys... Ole Bernie & Mad Max shot themselves in the foot back in 2005... and I said then, that would probably be the end of F-1... here in the States.

While I cant stand either of them at all (really I cant and I hate standing up for them), thats a bit unfair to Max and Bernie. It was Michellins fault and no one elses. Thats like blaming your car for hitting the pothole in the road when you were the one driving it ;)

Michellin screwed up the USA GP, made F1 a bigger joke than it already was and left F1 shortly after. Blame them.

[nigelred5]

:D As much as I'ed luv to see the Circus at Road Atlanta or VIR... Walkins Glen is more logical !!!

That's where I formed my love for racing as a Kid. trapsing throug hte mud every fall at the Glen.

I'd love to see it, but I'll go way out on a short limb and say it will never happen. The track is too remote, the facility is so far off FIA's -F1 standards it's not funny. There isn't even a hotel up the the snobbish F1 standards with in a hundred miles. ISC would never pay his ransome when they can make that a weekend on any of their oval tracks with NASCAR.

[keysersoze]

Still has guardrails for Chrissakes! GUARDRAILS! Everytime I think of it an awful visual of Francois Cevert gets stuck in my head.

[nigelred5]

While I cant stand either of them at all (really I cant and I hate standing up for them), thats a bit unfair to Max and Bernie. It was Michellins fault and no one elses. Thats like blaming your car for hitting the pothole in the road when you were the one driving it ;)

Michellin screwed up the USA GP, made F1 a bigger joke than it already was and left F1 shortly after. Blame them.


I'm still convinced it was a Toyota problem and not a Michelin problem.

[Yelnats]

Tony has made several attempts to rewrite the racing scene in the US but has again misunderstood his market.

First he missed the mark by assuming that Americans would be willing to accept his gutted version of the Indy 500 race for the real thing. Now he is disappointed because Bernie doesn't find his F1 circuit sufficiently enticing to wave the fees that other nations much smaller than the USA can afford.

Villeneuve, an expert on balls to the wall driving, described F1 Indy as a go-cart track connected to a drag strip. A pretty accurate summation of the layout problems that Tony's racing plant has had from the begining. The nasty infield chicane apparently was a last moment inclusion to prevent the lap times from dropping below 1 min. (nuff said)

Montreal was faced with Bernie-mail recently and had to raise 20M Can (19M US) to ensure it's survival. But this was with full stands and and a determined home market that raised the loss of such a jewel to the political level.

There is no dedication of the local Indy market to F1 and Bernie knows this so he has decided to squeeze elsewhere. I hope the city of Long Beach finds F1 charms sufficiently enticing as I don't see any other circuit with both the potential market and the historical/physical attraction to step up to the plate in the near future.

But all in all I respect Tony for jumping into the shark-filled waters of F1 and wish him luck with any future F1 adventures (like throwing out part of his infield Indy golf course to make room for a decent F1 circuit).

[luvracin]

The answer to the true reason for the race not returning to the US is in the name of the city itself... INDIAnapolis

[veeten]

There is no dedication of the local Indy market to F1 and Bernie knows this so he has decided to squeeze elsewhere. I hope the city of Long Beach finds F1 charms sufficiently enticing as I don't see any other circuit with both the potential market and the historical/physical attraction to step up to the plate in the near future.


been there, done that...
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cir-038.html

and it ended for the exact same reasons as Indy, just ask Pook.

[Storm]

. Indy had one exciting long straight, one shorter straight and a challenging infield. I can't imagien what is wrong with that. Only Canada, Spa and Turkey IMO have some real character.

I won't stand by and see the track denegrated in such a way. As to the 2005 situation, it was abundantly clear that Michelin and the teams overreacted to what was essentially a Toyota problem of underinflating their tyres.


Challenging infield ?
Have you read any driver comments about the Indy track ever..? most have said its one of the easiest track to drive on (infield with slow corners leading into each other).

Denerate the track? Lets be honest here....if the track is boring we call it boring. Why won't you let us do it ? Did you design it or something?

Most people on here will have share my "opinion" that the Indy infield is not exciting (to put in nice words).

Also 2005, Michelin did not over-react...yes it was a fiasco but I prefer that to someone dying in a crash with tyre failure on T13.

[jens]

Very bad news IMO - I truly like the circuit.

It looks like Bernie tries to make more room for Asian events and use their huge human resources in attempts of making F1 more popular as a world-wide sport. He probably wasn't impressed with the popularity of F1 in the USA.

[Crypt]

There are plenty of F1 fans in the U.S., but their numbers are dwarfed by mighty NASCAR, and that just doesn't look good on the books. Personally, I am sad to see F1 leave the states, but I can understand the logistics.

Come back to Laguna Seca Bernie :)

[johnny shell]

As much as I hate to say it, I'm afraid F1 is simply dead in the US.

Look, even american open wheel racing can't catch on here - not the Indy Racing League nor Champ Car.

Sure, one day F1 might catch on here. but Bernie would be dead by then.

and there's plenty of places willing to pay big bucks to get a race. so why not go there?

[Stuartf12007]

I really like champ car its exciting to watch.

they should put the GP on at the epcot centre!

[Roamy]

forget coming west with F1 - people don't give a sh!t same with the south.
The Glen is it - you can get there from EC and the NYC has enough people to support it

[truefan72]

Loosing the US GP is IMO a loss to F1, Loosing Indy slightly less tragic. My gripe here is with people who label the track a Mickey Mouse Course. Which I would like an explanation for,
IMO the course required serious compromise in the car's set up and had several overtaking areas. It was wide enough to have multiple lines and excellent viewning for the fans.

This habit off calling it a Mickey Mouse course is such an asinine reference because it simply doesn't hold any weight. So Ralf schumacher complains, because he can't make the exit on turn 13, with or without the tyre issue, So Webber complains, because he has never been competitive on the track, who else. Many drivers enjoy the track because of the long straight. What is the reference to Mickey Mouse, because you think the course is simple, or basic, or what? If anyone can explain that to me and it's demerits, then I will point them out to the issues of many other tracks, which drivers really dislike.

As to the infield thing again; As I said the Indy Infield, space wise is bigger than the entire track space of quite a few courses on the calender. calling it an infield is an arguement based on scale. which doesn't hold up on Indy.

I am just tired of people bashing the course who a) have never been there, or b) have no concept of its sheer size or scale.

I have mentioned in a previous thread that there aren't any F1 caliber courses apart from Indy in the US. If it were to come back it would have to be on a new complex or a heavily modified course. Watkins Glen, really isn't rated as an F1 caliber course for a variety of reasons.

My choice would be a new track built near or around Miami for very many of the glitz and glamour reasons F1 loves.

[Gannex]

Actually, truefan, I agree with you. Indy is a fascinating, challenging puzzle for the F1 engineer. At Indy, the arguments about set-up are more intense (and influential on the outcome) than at any other track. No two engineers seem to ever agree when it comes to how one should approach Indianapolis. It's one of the things, apart from the sheer scale of the place, as you so rightly say, that makes Indy special. I will miss it.

[msaxman]

to be realistic, only the drivers can legitimately complain about bland circuits. the fans aren't driving. all they care about is seeing good racing, and indianapolis has usually delivered.

i'm not endorsing boring tracks, but from a fan perspective, especially a casual fan, track layout isn't as important as close racing, which is one of the main draw points of ovals. close racing the whole time, and a view of the whole circuit.

[F1boat]

I love Indy, I am very sad to see it gone.

[ShiftingGears]

to be realistic, only the drivers can legitimately complain about bland circuits. the fans aren't driving. all they care about is seeing good racing, and indianapolis has usually delivered.

i'm not endorsing boring tracks, but from a fan perspective, especially a casual fan, track layout isn't as important as close racing, which is one of the main draw points of ovals. close racing the whole time, and a view of the whole circuit.

I disagree - I certainly don't like seeing cars race in tarmac fields. I think theyre very ugly and unnatural. And I think track layout is a huge factor for fans, as there can be challenging sections of racetrack that reward driving skill (like the S's at Suzuka, and the 130R) where lots of time can be gained (or lost). Those corners matter for me as a fan because they can seperate the men from the boys - a lot more than many point and squirt circuits specifically built to facilitate cars with design faults that greatly inhibit them from passing. Thats why many fans look back on the Nurburgring so fondly - its a beautiful circuit, its flowing, and the great drivers shone there, even in inferior equipment (Nuvolari, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Ickx, Stewart) - its a drivers circuit.

[philipbain]

I feel that to non-US based F1 fans the Indy race won't really be missed, F1 is far from the top of the US motorsports agenda, indeed its far from the top of Indy's own agenda (the Indy 500 and Brickyard 400 get much bigger crowds and national TV audiences in the US). It could be that we won't have a US GP for some time now, much like there wasnt one for much of the 90s, and back then it is hard to say that it was really missed, though that may have been down to the fact that the Pheonix track used from 89 - 91 was so very rubbish, every corner a sharp 90 degree turn with little in the way of local interest.

Where next for F1 in the US then? Indy is the only circuit in america that is currently up to F1 spec so running it on any other perminant track would take a lot of investment, perhaps the best alternative would be a street track, one in Las Vegas has been talked about though not much in the way of firm plans have been made, anyone else got any other ideas?

[wedge]

Well then let them pay for the race, trumper. (And welcome back, by the way.) You seem to forget that Bernie is the CEO of Formula 1. He has one job only and that is to maximise the profits and long-term prospects of Formula 1. When Bernie says that there's no money in America for F1, he is speaking about advertising revenue money, not money that comes from selling automobiles. That is BMW's job, and Mercedes's job, not the job of F1. The job of F1 is to return large advertising revenues to CVC, who owns F1, not Bernie. He owns just 15%.

Because he is such a small shareholder and his employers, CVC, own 85% of the business, this means that if Bernie is being evil and money-grubbing, as his critics say, you should at least give him credit for grubbing on behalf of his employers, not himself. I give him credit for focussing on his job as CEO -- keeping F1 profitable and widely watched, now and in the future. No one, no one on this planet, could have done a better job of that, these last several decades, than Bernie Ecclestone.

I love F1. I love Williams. I am not beholden to the manufacturers or the money-men. One of the people I thank the most for preserving and even improving F1 is Bernie Ecclestone. Stop knocking the man. If we lose a track here or there, that is little price to pay, and far better than losing the spirit of the entire series, its glamour, its sophistication, its engineering excellence, and its sheer excitement as the best form of motorsport that there has ever been.

Thanks Gannex for putting things into perspective. I can't deny that Bernie has done some good by safeguarding F1's future. There's growth potential in the Asian market and has every right to exploit it.

The US is still unfinished business, IMO. F1 visited Spain for years in a market that preferred two wheels and rallying. Barcelona was regarded as the quietest stop on the calender and then all of a sudden you have Alonso turning the the circuit into a blue sea.

I certainly wouldn't doubt the passionate atmosphere at Indy in all the years watching the race on TV.


Actually, truefan, I agree with you. Indy is a fascinating, challenging puzzle for the F1 engineer. At Indy, the arguments about set-up are more intense (and influential on the outcome) than at any other track. No two engineers seem to ever agree when it comes to how one should approach Indianapolis. It's one of the things, apart from the sheer scale of the place, as you so rightly say, that makes Indy special. I will miss it.

Bang, you've hit the nail on the head!

That's why I love Indy!

Unlike the majority of race tracks F1 race, Indy heavily promotes set up towards mechanical grip and not just aero. That's why you see the lap times are very close because the driver can make a huge difference.

The so called Mickey Mouse section, they call it Mickey Mouse just because the drivers complain (which then rubs off onto the fans) is awkward and very technical. The key word being technical. I personally rate it up there with the likes of Suzuka's Esses. Any fan with keen eye for detail will know there's different lines through those hairpins.

In the first few of races, Ferrari used to use a double apex and the McLaren drivers used single apex.

In recent years, much due to better tyres, you either carry as much speed as you can from the preceding left-hander via an early apex for the first hairpin, or you comprise your entry for a better run onto pit straight.

There aren't many corners in F1 where you'll see cars slide around, the driver having to rely on mechanical grip and not aero. IMO, race cars should have more BHP than grip. A shame we will lose a race track which compensates the dominance of aero in contemporary motorsports.

[wedge]

I disagree - I certainly don't like seeing cars race in tarmac fields. I think theyre very ugly and unnatural. And I think track layout is a huge factor for fans, as there can be challenging sections of racetrack that reward driving skill (like the S's at Suzuka, and the 130R) where lots of time can be gained (or lost). Those corners matter for me as a fan because they can seperate the men from the boys - a lot more than many point and squirt circuits specifically built to facilitate cars with design faults that greatly inhibit them from passing. Thats why many fans look back on the Nurburgring so fondly - its a beautiful circuit, its flowing, and the great drivers shone there, even in inferior equipment (Nuvolari, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Ickx, Stewart) - its a drivers circuit.

In some ways I do agree but we're in the aero era and the levels of aero grip are much superior now than in the days Nuvolari, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Ickx, Stewart who had more horsepower than grip.

Such high speed corners no longer seperate the men from the boys, nor do their rivals have a bigger or smaller groin!

It's all about the car, I'm afraid. Super Aguri being a good example because they're going backwards. The factory Honda, by comparison, have made huge gains in the wind tunnel. The SA are now struggling with the high speed corners whereas earlier in the year it was the factory Honda's who were struggling the most.

130R and to an extent Eau Rouge are now over-rated because you can easily take it flat out. It's all about downforce and aero-efficiency which in turn creates the problem of turbulent air and lack of overtaking, not necessarily due to a 'Mickey Mouse, point and squirt track layout'.

On balance, I'm pro-Tilke. I would rather watch an exciting race at Hockenheim (when was there a bad one since it was Tilke'd?) than a procession at somewhere like Barcelona. Then again, I could easily remain in love with Suzuka no matter how dull the race is!

Conclusion - F1 needs all different types of circuits!


PS. didn't I have a similar argument on this subject with you not too long ago?

[Gannex]

I think that if you're going to criticise a circuit, you should specify; are you saying it's bad on TV, or bad from the edge of the track. If it's the view from the edge of the track that you're criticising, well, parts of even the best circuits are terrible. Even Silverstone, which has Maggots, Becketts and Bridge, also has Luffield, as boring a corner as was ever built.

But if you're talking about a circuit to watch on TV, I don't think interesting corners are quite as important. On TV, overtaking matters more, incident, cars driving alongside each other, and flying off the track (hopefully, with drivers completely uninjured).

I find that from my living room sofa, I can't really appreciate the tricky corners, so it doesn't much matter to me if there are many or few of them dotted around the track. Despite that, I don't feel short-changed as a TV viewer, because it's only on TV that I get to see all the incidents as they happen. The poor sods at the track don't see them at all; they're the last to know!

I haven't been to Indy, so I can't comment on it except as a TV viewer: on TV, I think Indy's been great.

[msaxman]

I disagree - I certainly don't like seeing cars race in tarmac fields. I think theyre very ugly and unnatural. And I think track layout is a huge factor for fans, as there can be challenging sections of racetrack that reward driving skill (like the S's at Suzuka, and the 130R) where lots of time can be gained (or lost). Those corners matter for me as a fan because they can seperate the men from the boys - a lot more than many point and squirt circuits specifically built to facilitate cars with design faults that greatly inhibit them from passing. Thats why many fans look back on the Nurburgring so fondly - its a beautiful circuit, its flowing, and the great drivers shone there, even in inferior equipment (Nuvolari, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Ickx, Stewart) - its a drivers circuit.

certainly challenging corners are fun to watch, but have you ever seen an amazing pass made at 130R? or the first turn at silverstone? or eau rouge at spa? they are all certainly challenging corners, but strictly from a fan perspective, watching out on the course, you'd never know if they lifted through a corner or not.

i'm still not advocating boring circuits, but it's more of a shame to see f1 leave the US than it is to see f1 leave indy.

[truefan72]

I think that if you're going to criticise a circuit, you should specify; are you saying it's bad on TV, or bad from the edge of the track. If it's the view from the edge of the track that you're criticising, well, parts of even the best circuits are terrible. Even Silverstone, which has Maggots, Becketts and Bridge, also has Luffield, as boring a corner as was ever built.

But if you're talking about a circuit to watch on TV, I don't think interesting corners are quite as important. On TV, overtaking matters more, incident, cars driving alongside each other, and flying off the track (hopefully, with drivers completely uninjured).

I find that from my living room sofa, I can't really appreciate the tricky corners, so it doesn't much matter to me if there are many or few of them dotted around the track. Despite that, I don't feel short-changed as a TV viewer, because it's only on TV that I get to see all the incidents as they happen. The poor sods at the track don't see them at all; they're the last to know!

I haven't been to Indy, so I can't comment on it except as a TV viewer: on TV, I think Indy's been great.

Thank you!

That's whatt I am talking about. I am not sure those that criticise indy are doing so from a pure fan's perspective which should really be their #1 concern. Is it good racing, are there overtaking opportunities, multiple lines, close racing etc. If it fits that criteria, then that's what people would watch.

If the number one complaint is that they don't like the track because it is in an infiled or vaguely call it a Mickey Mouse track, I would like to hear specifically, what about the track doesn't make for good racing.

F1 should be a nice mix of tracks to challenge the drivers.
I did love the old Hockenheim though.
one race in a season where you can go flat out for 80% of the lap would be fun. With the straight speed being almost equal for 20 out of the 22 cars and enough room/length to slipstream an overtake it sure would make an excitinf race. BUT yes I do know about the safety concerns (even though the older cars were faster than today's the differenct being better cornering speed nowerdays) IMO anything going faster than 200kmh is always going to be a safety concern anyway.

[Ranger]

certainly challenging corners are fun to watch, but have you ever seen an amazing pass made at 130R?

You need to youtube Suzuka 2005, buddy. :p :

[wmcot]

I did have the good fortune to go to Indy in 2004 and I can tell you that you can criticize the track all you want from a technical perspective, but the track is amazingly great from a fan's perspective! From almost anywhere in the grandstands you get a good view of much of the circuit. We sat just up from turn 1 and we could see the entire first section of the track (not sure just how many turns) as well as the pit exit and the end half of the main straight. These weren't even prime tickets!

F1, like all racing is about the fans. From a fan's viewpoint, Indy was a great circuit! If all you judge a sport by is the technical intricacy of its turns, I suggest you start watching figure skating!!! Bernie needs to make F1 enjoyable and fan friendly! That's what NASCAR has (as much as I hate to admit it) and even the American LeMans Series is great for being fan-friendly. F1 is snooty and aloof unless you are one of the few celebs allowed onto the grid!

[Roamy]

yep F1 is at the top of the arrogant list. Champ Car was really good with the fans and the drivers were very good and available also. I don't know enough about neckcar to compare.

[blakebeatty]

I love your sig fousto. Couldn't agree more!

[tsarcasm]

good points!

but do you think Grandpa could go with (on occasion ;)

[Roamy]

Oh yea Grandpa is great and I would assume will take that role in the event Marco get going quick enough to come across. I would really like to see Marco in Champ Car as that is the experience he really needs now.

[wedge]

I did have the good fortune to go to Indy in 2004 and I can tell you that you can criticize the track all you want from a technical perspective, but the track is amazingly great from a fan's perspective! From almost anywhere in the grandstands you get a good view of much of the circuit. We sat just up from turn 1 and we could see the entire first section of the track (not sure just how many turns) as well as the pit exit and the end half of the main straight. These weren't even prime tickets!

F1, like all racing is about the fans. From a fan's viewpoint, Indy was a great circuit! If all you judge a sport by is the technical intricacy of its turns, I suggest you start watching figure skating!!! Bernie needs to make F1 enjoyable and fan friendly! That's what NASCAR has (as much as I hate to admit it) and even the American LeMans Series is great for being fan-friendly. F1 is snooty and aloof unless you are one of the few celebs allowed onto the grid!

Thursday at Indy is open all day to all ticket holders, with the open garages and drivers making an appearance. The tickets are dirt cheap compared to NASCAR (and with the strong British pound) were the reasons why I was planning to go to Indy next year. :(

!0yrs ago there was pit lane walkabouts for general admission but now you'd be lucky if the BMW park turned up that particular weekend!

It's all to do with supply and demand. We all know Bernie wants to make F1 as popular as possible and thereby turn the paddock into an exclusive hospitality zone for the elite because he's all too keen for a race at Paul Ricard.

[call_me_andrew]

I've heard that if you wanted to get a hotel room during the USGP weekend this year, you had to pay for at least 3 nights. Hotels stopped making that demand for Memorial Day Weekend years ago.

[airshifter]

I can't say that I'm the least bit surprised. After the 2005 joke, F1 needed much better exposure and promotion to work in the US. Most US race fans didn't know crap about F1 to begin with, and then the attitude of F1 not needing the US and the fiasco cast in stone that a lot of them won't care until it's properly promoted.

I thought for the most part it was a boring race to watch and the track lacked character. Technical or not, there is a lack of terrain and interest at an infield generated track. The final corner onto the straight was good, but if long straights make F1, I must be confused on wanting some cornering ability involved more than NASCAR style long straights.


Without major changes to a track with some character such as Laguna Seca, Watkins Glen, VIR, or Road Atlanta F1 will never get a solid grip on the US market.

Michelin, the drivers, and the FIA screwed the US market in '05.

[cobre]

I won't miss bernie the molester or his gold plated: ego serving dog& pony show

[Mark in Oshawa]

I rarely comment on the F1 board, but this topic has me here. Bernie Ecclestone is the biggest extortionist not in a jail cell some where. This is his MO. He spots a market, lines up a promotor, tells him that he wants into his area, but you have to pay X amount of money and spend a TON of money upgrading your facility. Promotors often get the money up (often from guillable governments) and make the track up to Bernie's "standards". Bernie shows up, says how impressed he is, and 5 years later has doubled the fee's and says what a dump that market is....and how he wants more money spent on facilities.

F1 is going to be only hosted by nations dumb enough, rich enough or just corrupt enough to keep paying the greenmail to an extent. Of course, Bernie wont really abandon Britain (home of all the teams pretty much), Germany or France. I mean lets face reality, if he was honest, Monaco would have been gone years ago, but he knows he cant kill all the tradition. No, Bernie held up Montreal, pulled it off the sched and then when the idiots in Ottawa caved in and came up with the cash, Montreal was back. All the new GP's are on souless Tilke designed jewels with just overkill on the luxury facilities because the people paying don't care. Bernie wants the cash, and the US and Canada are two of his targets. Tony wouldn't pay up, and no other US facility will either. Canada will likely be gone because that sort of blackmail will only go so far when the promotor starts begging the government for tax dollars.

I know for a fact that the facilities that Bernie finds a joke (Silverstone and Magny Cours are on his list, Imola and Spa are victims) would be more than enough for any other race series on the planet. F1 may be the pinnacle of motorsport, but lets drop the fiction that he actually has a point in asking for upgraded facilities or more money because his costs have gone up. He isn't happy being the richest man in the UK.....he needs more.....

[Shifter]

You all have it in your heads that F1 is it, accept no substitute. As I see it, when F1 finally eats itself, banished to far away lands full of oil or low regard for human rights, someone will be lining up open wheel cars on grids at Spa and Watkins Glen, and all of us will be there to support it.

[wmcot]

Thursday at Indy is open all day to all ticket holders, with the open garages and drivers making an appearance. The tickets are dirt cheap compared to NASCAR (and with the strong British pound) were the reasons why I was planning to go to Indy next year.

Yeah, but the "open garages" are roped off and 10 meters or so away from fans. And if you're lucky, you MIGHT get to see the Spyker drivers!

[Easy Drifter]

It seems the only good thing about BE today is that he is getting on in years. Mind you he is probably too mean to die and he does think he is the almighty.
Actually he brought F1 into the modern era, although I am not sure that is totally good. It was pretty chaotic before BE. Something like CCWS and IRL today!
I do agree his demands are getting more and more out of sight.

[Crypt]

It seems the only good thing about BE today is that he is getting on in years. Mind you he is probably too mean to die and he does think he is the almighty.
Actually he brought F1 into the modern era, although I am not sure that is totally good. It was pretty chaotic before BE. Something like CCWS and IRL today!
I do agree his demands are getting more and more out of sight.

Evil men live long lives, look at Castro :)

[billiaml]

Hopefully, they'll find a $uitable venue for another USGP. Of course, if they don't, I guess there's always Montreal (for now, anyway)

[BenRoethig]

Hopefully, they'll find a $uitable venue for another USGP. Of course, if they don't, I guess there's always Montreal (for now, anyway)

I have a feeling that as the USGP goes so does the Canadian Grand Prix.

[FIA]

Don't count on it yet, as they unveiled the bike track at Indy and that could make an agreement. I like this new layout other than I think T5 should use the banking of Indy, whick would lead into a tighter T6.

[Racehound]

There was nothing wrong with that track, please let's not get into comparing tracks out there. On pure track configuration and style. Monaco, Hungaro Ring, Hockenheim, Nurburgring, China, Interlagos, Fuji, boring Silverstone, and even Monza have less characteristics than Indy. Indy had one exciting long straight, one shorter straight and a challenging infield. I can't imagien what is wrong with that. Only Canada, Spa and Turkey IMO have some real character.

I won't stand by and see the track denegrated in such a way. As to the 2005 situation, it was abundantly clear that Michelin and the teams overreacted to what was essentially a Toyota problem of underinflating their tyres.

Bottom line is that Money grubbing, greedy, and ego-manaical Bernie is squarly to blame. You guys watch, Silverstone is next (which btw did not sell out this year) followed by other tracks in the future. He will end up only staging races on tracks that cowher to his demented fiscal needs in markets less attractive to F1.

Bernie and Max Mosley combined have completely ruined the sport and both really need to go before this gets completely out of hand
the midget is a f*kwit!!!!.......im gutted that the toxic little twerp has made it near on impossible for Tony George to agree terms to keep F1 in the U.S.!!!!!!!....i dont blame the fans in the states for not attending in such great numbers since the 05 race, but after this years race that would soon have sorted itself out and the U.S fans would have been pouring in to next years race im sure!!!!! To have f1 in America was sheer bliss imo.....i loved the fact that people stateside were intersted in f1.....and for it to have been at Indy was a bonus!!!! :) ....some ppl like the track, and some ppl didnt, but it was still there in the U.S for ppl to go and see if they wanted......and as for f1 doesnt need America, YES you short arsed little twerp!!!!......IT DOES!!!!!.....because ppl in America love their motorsport, and real f1 fans here in europe liked having "our show" over there for the Americans to enjoy!!!!!!!!.....with all the money he has, it makes you wonder just how mentally stable he is when all he seems to want to do is keep tying up deals in flaming asia.......he could give Silverstone 50 million to revamp the circuit and not miss the money, yet he doesnt even appear to have any loyalty to his own countries historic venue!!!!!......since he pulled that stunt at Imola in 94, tellin everyone Senna was ok immediately after that crash, so that the race could be restarted, i have wanted to see the back of this poisonous little twat!!!!........he obviously now has more money than sense, and that makes him completely at odds with real enthusiasts of motor racing......as any psychologist will tell ya, little men over compensate in the things they do , and this burks ego is f**kin rampant at the moment, as we seem to hear about him more than most of us want to!!!!!!!!!......its pretty obvious he likes the press to call him the "F1 supremo", like hes the ringmaster of the whole flaming circus, but he seems to be looking more like 1 of the dwarf clowns !!!.........

[call_me_andrew]

Don't count on it yet, as they unveiled the bike track at Indy and that could make an agreement. I like this new layout other than I think T5 should use the banking of Indy, whick would lead into a tighter T6.

I think they should have squared off Turn 7 a little more, but Turn 10 looks promising.

[Easy Drifter]

Racehound: I don't like BE either (not that he cares) but he brought F1 out of the dark ages. I do feel he has become too powerful but he did it more to make F1 successful than anyone.
Don't forget he started as a used car salesman and not much of a race driver. His supposed excursion into a certain train did help though! :vader:

[wedge]

So are they going to destroy the double hairpins or is that whole section is being repaved for the Moto GP circuit?

[markabilly]

Indy was the only place willing to put the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and more$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in the usa,but then it gets burned one year because of tires.....the next year michael is gone, but DO NOT KNOCK IT.

Why? Unlike almost all the other F1 tracks, there were two places where one might even pass another car other than in the pists.

Of coure there is Laquana seca, which has got to be one of the best tracks in the world in turns of a challenge to the driver down through the corkscrew, but it has the worst entry and exits, a mere 60k fans are a massive overload as demoed by motogp, and there are not much places where any passing would occur with a current F1 car..............and SCRAMP ain't about to throw up burnei ernie kind of bucks for his pockets and children......so bye bye, technonerd racing...probably never be missed by most.... :rolleyes: but almsot any track now, I watch the first two laps then :dozey: :dozey: and turn it off...later i check the intenent to see who passed who in da p :cool: isser