What would you choose, the glory of IRC or the challenge of PWRC ?

[A.F.F.]

Let's say you are a decent driver and you'd have an access to get yourself a brand new S2000 car. To which series you would take part next season ??

To IRC where there are new and exciting rallies, try out different rule-set, you would get probably much more TV-coverage but the competition woud be lower than in PWRC. You would seriously need to think does it matter but since you have a determined plan to some day reach the vey top of rallying, professionally it clearly won't feed you as much.

Or, to PWRC where the compettion is much harder but you had the chance to circle and get experience from rallies used in WRC. Should you do well, especially in tarmac rallies, you would probably fan the team bosses of WRC early on your career which would naturally be very important.

If it was me ( hey, I'm another flying finn ;) ) I'd choose PWRC in a second and had a head against head battle with the boys ( hopefully not girls since Natalie isn't so fast :mark: ) of PWRC.

[Tomi]

Offcourse PWRC, if trying to the top IRC would be a waste of time. but not with a s2000

[Leon]

PWRC. IRC is still on paper only. Maybe after a year I will consider IRC if it proves to be a success especially with the highly commented Eurosport promotion/coverage. I was very angry and dissatisfied with Eurosport when I was able to view it between 1997-2001. Their TV schedule was anything but reliable and in general lack of professionalism.

I really don´t get all the excitement about IRC.

[Wim_Impreza]

PWRC, but not with a S2000. I choose a Impreza WRX STI. I don't like S2000 cars so far.

[Erki]

Both.

[Tom206wrc]

IRC with a 207 S2000 !!! :bounce:


:p :

[DonJippo]

IRC with a 207 S2000 !!! :bounce:

Tom, the question was what would you do as a driver not as a fan...

[sal]

IRC without a shadow of a doubt. What is the PWRC but a series to make up the numbers? The UK has had a couple of PWRC winners in recent years which has basically ended their careers. Anyone who mentions the likes of Latvala in this thread wants shooting as he has the backing and a good manager who can find the funds to buy him into a WRC seat regardless of his undoubted talent.

Think the IRC with Safari,San Remo, Madeira Ypres and all is a much more attractive challenge.

[Lousada]

IRC. In PWRC there are equalizer rules for your S2000 car. Judging from how the FIA equalizes WTCC and FIA GT, this would mean your competitive one time and uncompetitive the next. This makes it completely useless for teambosses or sponsors to judge your ability, so it won't help the future of your career.

[A.F.F.]

IRC without a shadow of a doubt. What is the PWRC but a series to make up the numbers? The UK has had a couple of PWRC winners in recent years which has basically ended their careers. Anyone who mentions the likes of Latvala in this thread wants shooting as he has the backing and a good manager who can find the funds to buy him into a WRC seat regardless of his undoubted talent.

Think the IRC with Safari,San Remo, Madeira Ypres and all is a much more attractive challenge.


Very good points sal :up:

May I add another question to the thread? Do you think the status of PWRC may increase with possible intrest of S2000?

Because that's what I hope. The i´deal situation would be if PWRC/S2000 act like GP2 in F1.

[Lousada]

Very good points sal :up:

May I add another question to the thread? Do you think the status of PWRC may increase with possible intrest of S2000?

Because that's what I hope. The i´deal situation would be if PWRC/S2000 act like GP2 in F1.

No, precisely for the reason that I stated in the post above you. The cars are not build to equal regulations, so it is too hard to compare. BTW, the JWRC was supposed to be the GP2 of WRC.

[DonJippo]

If your goal is to get to WRC then PWRC without a doupt, you get to know WRC events and you are far more ready to enter the big boys league compared to IRC.

[Tomi]

I would say what ever if it is driven in WRC events, you have much more use of it, pacenotes, can make contacts to teams, why PWRC, simply because s2000 is a new class, why would a driver with small budget want to pay the developing of making the car reliable? I think better to drive well prepaired N-Group car and finish events.

[DonJippo]

IRC. In PWRC there are equalizer rules for your S2000 car.

It's not for S2000 cars only, the rule works both ways, covers both S2000 and N-group cars.

[AndyRAC]

Good question. very tough choice, probably a toss of a coin. If only for the novelty of a new championship and new events then maybe the IRC. But as was said before, Martin Rowe and Niall McShea both won the PWRC and look what happened, both disappeared without trace and couldn't even defend their crowns.Maybe in the not too distant future S2000 cars will be proven to be a lot better than PWRCars, who knows?

[DonJippo]

Maybe in the not too distant future S2000 cars will be proven to be a lot better than PWRCars, who knows?

There is no such a thing as PWRC car, both S2000 and N-group cars are eligible to be used in a serie called PWRC.

[AndyRAC]

Yes of course, what I should have said was that maybe that S2000 cars might become the Premier class, replacing WRCars. Only because there are more manufacturers producing S2000 cars than WRCars. To be honest I just want a WRC with lots of manufacturers taking part, that doesn't look likely at the moment with WRCars.

[A.F.F.]

BTW, the JWRC was supposed to be the GP2 of WRC.

Yes but is it really? It used to be but not anymore.

[Tomi]

Yes but is it really? It used to be but not anymore.
It was a joke from beginning and still is the same, like Hänninen said after 1st day in rally GB, "I did have 2 flats, even i did not hit anything" that should explaine quite alot. :)

[PLuto]

Very hard question. But everything depends about future plans. If the driver would like to be a competitor in WRC, it is better to start in PCWRC. But if his ambitions are only to start in european rallies, national rallies or only to compete for fun, it is better to start in IRC.

[A.F.F.]

It was a joke from beginning and still is the same, like Hänninen said after 1st day in rally GB, "I did have 2 flats, even i did not hit anything" that should explaine quite alot. :)

Plus was ashamed to win and said he was sorry for it.

[sal]

Being thinking again about this whole question again and I still come down in favour of the IRC regardless of whether the driver would be using an S2000 car or Group N. So here is my further arguement.

Of the S2000 cars only Fiat have a proven package so assuming "our driver" has managed to get him/herself into a Punto they stand a good chance of getting decent results in either championship and takes out the "developing the car"arguement that could be levelled at the Toyota etc.

You then have to look at the series. The PWRC uses the same stages as the WRC events on the occassions that these two events run together so there is familiarality there and understanding of how the events run. There is also the kudos of a "World" title. However you then have to look at the competition, the PWRC is a bit of an old boys club with the same drivers like Arai who do the championship year in year out, for heavens sake Stig was a regular for several years!! How would a driver new to the series be able to be judged fairly against these guys? If the newbie wins then people could argue that the competition wasn't really tough as these were old drivers with little left to prove, if they lose then why they couldnt even beat these old guys! I'm sure that Travis Pestrana will shake things up in 07 but the PWRC still feels like a place where "journeymen" drivers go, not necessarily to die but to keep some food on the table. Furthermore other than 15mins on some minor cable/satellite channel there is little or no media coverage to keep sponsors happy and to heighten the drivers profile. There is also the fact that winning the championship is little or no guarantee of a WRC seat and that there would possibly be more to gain in spending the budget on two or three well chosen WRC events in as new a spec WRC car as poss and driving the door handles off it "a al Hirvonen".

You then have the IRC. A new series with some classic events from the past and some new ones in emerging markets that will appeal to sponsors. TV and media coverage almost guaranteed and the likelihood that you can be fairly judged against the competition. As some of the events have recently been in the WRC you will still get to learn how an event operates and if you are at the sharp end ie in the top five of the event you will learn how to deal with media attention. You could use the "spend the budget on three WRC drives" equally here, however there is still a title to be had which as yet dosnt have the stigma of a PWRC crown which has done little to further the career of most of those who have held it already.

However this may still prove acedemic. The FIA have proven pretty adept at killing off any series which threatens the popularity of their flag ship(s) in the past witness the World Touring Car in the 90s and the WRC in the past threatening F1. Now with a lot of money at stake who's to say that the WRC media rights holder wont put pressure to bear to protect their interests should the IRC take off...

[N.O.T]

Guys aren't you jumping on that IRC thing a little too fast ?????

I mean we don't even know if any drivers who actually have some skills to showcase are going to participate and we comparing it with the PWRC which is part of the World series ??????

My opionion is that the IRC is going to be a failure.....as far as competition goes....something like Asia Pacific and ERC....

[Tom206wrc]

Tom, the question was what would you do as a driver not as a fan...

Where's the problem ?? :confused:

I would drive the 207 as driver ON IRC... ;)

[Jarek Z]

I will not judge whether IRC or PWRC is better, but I want to highlight one thing that nobody noticed yet.

In an IRC round, spending the same amount of money (or even less), you can do something that is impossible in PWRC. You can win a rally in overal classification. You can be overal winner, first car on the finish line, the only hero. They will show you on TV, you will hit the press. That can never happen in PWRC, where you can be 24th, 15th or 10th if you are lucky (and your WRC opponents not).

Safari Rally winner, SanRemo winner - how does that sound in your ears, my friends?

[N.O.T]

It sounds good definately....but the true value of the competition gives honour to the winner....for example what did Donchev earned when we won ELPA rally last year from a bunch of useless locals ???

[Jarek Z]

Well N.O.T, you can ask the same question to Martin Rowe and Niall McShea, who both achieved something more than one win in ERC round. And where are they now?

P.S. That was Iliev, who won Elpa Rally.

[N.O.T]

Exactly....my point is that if you want to make a step further you need to achieve something in a division with good competition not just win a division...thats why i think IRC will fail...because it will not attract high skilled competitors....and if you do a direct comperison of PWRC and IRC the level of competition is better in PWRC (although not high enough the last few years to guarantee the winner a place in the sun)

Of course i wish i am wrong, but i rarely am....

[sal]

Exactly....my point is that if you want to make a step further you need to achieve something in a division with good competition not just win a division...thats why i think IRC will fail...because it will not attract high skilled competitors....and if you do a direct comperison of PWRC and IRC the level of competition is better in PWRC (although not high enough the last few years to guarantee the winner a place in the sun)

Of course i wish i am wrong, but i rarely am....

How do you know that it wont attract the right level of competiton? Have you seen an advance copy of the list of proposed competitors in the IRC? I guess not so think you are being premature in writing off this series. It's not a rival to the PWRC but an alternative.You can compare it to touring car racing with the ITC/DTM and the 2 litre formulas where there is room for all.

As for an idle boast like that think you should get your knife and fork ready for all the humble pie you might need to eat...

[PLuto]

Guys aren't you jumping on that IRC thing a little too fast ?????

I mean we don't even know if any drivers who actually have some skills to showcase are going to participate and we comparing it with the PWRC which is part of the World series ??????

My opionion is that the IRC is going to be a failure.....as far as competition goes....something like Asia Pacific and ERC....



Hello Gregory, it is nice to see you here :o ) I am talking with thinking about future, which plans FIA... And their plans are to make two levels of WRC - one for WRC cars and second for S2000, PCWRC, JWRC. First level by Richards, second level by Eurosport...

[DonJippo]

Safari Rally winner, SanRemo winner - how does that sound in your ears, my friends?

Not for the same as they used to be...IRC Safari and SanRemo will be less than a shadow of what they were...

[N.O.T]

Hello Gregory, it is nice to see you here :o ) I am talking with thinking about future, which plans FIA... And their plans are to make two levels of WRC - one for WRC cars and second for S2000, PCWRC, JWRC. First level by Richards, second level by Eurosport...

so something like F1 and F3000 (or what its called).... we will see....But experience tells that when track formats are applied to rallying they end in a very bad way....

I don't want the IRC to fail.....but with the current situation in the WRC a further dilution of rallying at the top level i think will bring worse results...Its not like we have enough talent in the WRC and we need to disperse them somewhere else.....

Time will tell....

[FrankenSchwinn]

hum, i will do the pwrc for a full year. i will learn the events and get a good grip on what it takes to do a world championship and get the dots on the i and cross the t of my rally career. i'll go visit panti and see what he has to say about my size 48 left foot. because i am so good, i will win a few events and finish runner up that first year. the following year, after whoring myself to sponsors from all over the world in the inter-season, i will do the whole pwrc again and add a few runs (only 3 if uncle bill gates is not feeling so generous) in a wrc. these rallies will be chosen upon my experience the previous year in the pwrc and which surfaces/rallies would i be most comfortable with. that second year, because i am an excellent driver, i will win the pwrc title. because i got on the podium at one of the well thought of wrc event and because i would have whored myself some more to uncle bill and aunt melinda (i don't speak to my second cousin "the donald" anymore, he stole my idea of a gold toilet!) i will have some sponsors on board for me to align maybe 8-10 wrc drives in a fantastic kronos C4 or a focus. when that happens i will debate with my co-driver and see which rallies we will want to sign a few stage wins taking beaucoup de risks to have that "damn he's fast" comment directed at us, and which rallies will we want to take it sleazy and have that "damn he's smart" comment about not fawking up the car. in between rallies i will run historic events in berlinettes, porsches, vw's, and that sweet stingray that buffum had at monte. i will of course, aslo whore myself some more to sponsors as well as NOT who has decided to pay me for some unmantionable services. when the next season will come, because everyone likes me, i will have amassed such a huge amount of support that i will be able to do the whole season in a competitive vehicle. i will score some excellent stage wins, beating mikko (hirvonen, not alatalo you pervert!) regularily and putting a lot of others to shame. i will score many podiums including 4/5 second places. my first win (in NZ) will be taken away from me by a time penalty on the last day because the mechanics could not place the new brakes in time (turns out my left foot is really heavy). but it will not affect me. by my second full season in the wrc i will win 5/6 rallies and be crowned champion after fierce battles in almost every rally. and then, maybe i'll eat one of pino's pizzas. my managers in Suomi will be the tripple threat of (in no particular order) DonJippo, AFF and Tomi. because i will have realised that the only place where it counts to be respected is Finland, they will be hired to be my representatives (with outside assignments for DJ in Brazil). Daniel will be my austalian and welsh manager as well as my representative to the media and he'll tell everyone to shut the hell up. (daniel, no bashing gigi, i dont want pino to spit in my pizza). Denis Giraudet will be my manager for the rest of the world and co-driver or maybe herve panizzi...... oh and every car i will drive with will run on ethanol and not polute our beautiful earth.

it will happen, oh yes, it will happen! :angryfire :

[COD]

PCWRC is getting some interesting names for 2007, sadly no S2000R as far as I know yet. However with more S2000R cars being homologated I predict that it could come the GP2 of rallying. Sure, past Champions (Rowe, McShea and Singh to name few) have not made it to the top, but when have you heard WRC-teams hiring anyone without experience in WRC-cars in WRC-events? So what these have lacked after their Championships have been funds to go further. Also many of them have achieved the title more or less by cruising to finish than by showing great speed.

But if the level of competition gets higher in PCWRC,then the respect and interest will rise as well and it could become a steppingstone for future stars.

[FrankenSchwinn]

but when have you heard WRC-teams hiring anyone without experience in WRC-cars in WRC-events?

loeb, 2001, had only been in a wrc for 2-3 rallies.

[Brother John]

I will do the pwrc for a full year as first driver in a S2000. :D

[N.O.T]

loeb, 2001, had only been in a wrc for 2-3 rallies.

sordo also this year.....

[COD]

loeb, 2001, had only been in a wrc for 2-3 rallies.

That is 2-3 more than the drivers I mentioned! And he had great results n those few events. And also then some teams had 3 cars, so it was less of a gamble than now with only two

[FrankenSchwinn]

there were three cars then but there were not as many internationally involved private teams with newer cars and certainly not as many M2 teams. plus loeb's results with the corolla were far from great!

[N.O.T]

That is 2-3 more than the drivers I mentioned! And he had great results n those few events. And also then some teams had 3 cars, so it was less of a gamble than now with only two

sordo...

[A.F.F.]

I admit IRC will have difficulties to get the same credibility as PWRC has now. The way I see it now is like a video game. A bunch of rallies in different exotic locations. Win them all and get a trophy :bounce: Should be easy as well since nobody knows any of the drivers.

But I refuse to think IRC against WRC, PWRC but rather for it. If they use the machinery, get good competition, it should appeal to drivers all over. If not participating, then getting their hands to similar machinery. HENCE, S2000 if you will. PWRC had already this season some good competition but the fact I'm not getting all over the walls about it is the lack of manufacturers. Surely it'll change when there would be three or four manufacturers along with Mitsu and Subaru.

All rallying is good. Except bad rallying ;)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Sooo....... what cars have we got in the IRC?

I like the looks of the calendar though :)

1. March 9-11 Safari Rally Kenya (gravel)
2. May 11-12 Rally of Turkey Turkey (gravel)
3. June 22-23 Ypres Westhoek Rally Belgium (asphalt)
4. July 13-14 Rally of Russia Russia (gravel)
5. August 2-4 Rally Vinho da Madeira Portugal (asphalt)
6 August 24-26 Barum Rally Zlin Czech Republic (asphalt)
7. September 28-30 Rally Sanremo Italy (asphalt)
8. October 25-27 Rally du Valais Switzerland (asphalt)
9. November 23-25 Rally China China* (gravel)

I want to watch a round on tv. (if shown in Australia - or download off net) See how it goes then compare and rate the championship. Get to know the drivers too. Panizzi perhaps? (well i know him)

[cosmicpanda]

It was a joke from beginning and still is the same, like Hänninen said after 1st day in rally GB, "I did have 2 flats, even i did not hit anything" that should explaine quite alot. :)

so is that the fault of the car?

[Tomi]

so is that the fault of the car?

well if you dont hit anything and still gets flats it makes the whole thing a lottery in my view.

[Wim_Impreza]

well if you dont hit anything and still gets flats it makes the whole thing a lottery in my view.

I agree, the whole JWRC was a lottery this year.

[Lousada]

You also got to remember the IRC will only start-up next year (I don't consider these four rounds in 2006 a start). Many of you already slag it down because of lack of drivers and manufacturers. Yet there will be official teams of Peugeot and Fiat, plus private Toyota's and VW. Skoda already mentioned they are building a S2000 for a works effort. Ford was looking into it also. The WRC has works Citroen, Subaru and Ford, plus private Mitsubishis.
The drivers are not yet the best, but my guess is that many would-be WRC drivers are a little afraid it will hurt their potential WRC career. As more and more guys like Meeke and Duval bounce off and others like Bouffier(?) try to bonce up, the championship will improve hard. In 2009, maybe even 2008 we will see what this championship/challenge is really about.
It's not intented as a rival to the WRC but as something different. If the WRC suffers because of IRC, it only got itself to blame. The more rally on TV the better I think.

[RS]

You also got to remember the IRC will only start-up next year (I don't consider these four rounds in 2006 a start). Many of you already slag it down because of lack of drivers and manufacturers. Yet there will be official teams of Peugeot and Fiat, plus private Toyota's and VW. Skoda already mentioned they are building a S2000 for a works effort. Ford was looking into it also. The WRC has works Citroen, Subaru and Ford, plus private Mitsubishis.
The drivers are not yet the best, but my guess is that many would-be WRC drivers are a little afraid it will hurt their potential WRC career. As more and more guys like Meeke and Duval bounce off and others like Bouffier(?) try to bonce up, the championship will improve hard. In 2009, maybe even 2008 we will see what this championship/challenge is really about.
It's not intented as a rival to the WRC but as something different. If the WRC suffers because of IRC, it only got itself to blame. The more rally on TV the better I think.

:) Good post.

Maybe the proper talent will end up here and the pay drivers can stick to WRC.

[DonJippo]

Maybe the proper talent will end up here and the pay drivers can stick to WRC.

Maybe but currently no proofs exists that in IRC drivers would not need to pay-to-drive...

[COD]

sordo...

Same story, first payed to drive in WRC-CAR, got good results and then was hired

[Lousada]

Maybe but currently no proofs exists that in IRC drivers would not need to pay-to-drive...

But a S2000 ride is much cheaper because the cars have a fixed price. Finding budget will be a lot easier. They also drive less rallies and in commercially better countries.

[Daniel]

Fixed price my RS Cosworth! :laugh: Just like S1600 before it S2000 is more expensive than it should have been :)

[COD]

You are right about that Daniel, fixed price for S2000R is as reliable as in S1600. When can FIA **ots understand that they can not fix a price? Only way to reduce costs is to limt technical development by regulations.

[Lousada]

Fixed price my RS Cosworth! :laugh: Just like S1600 before it S2000 is more expensive than it should have been :)

Of course. The regulations for S2000 cars are as bad as the WRC regulations. But still they are a lot cheaper than a WRC, which is the point.

[Daniel]

My Peugeot 504 was a lot cheaper than an S2000. Should we have a one make series of old 504's?

[DonJippo]

But still they are a lot cheaper than a WRC, which is the point.

To purchase one yes but the running costs are not far away from a WRC car what I've heard...

[Daniel]

To purchase one yes but the running costs are not far away from a WRC car what I've heard...
Yes but that's not the point. People hate the WRC so call the cars something different, take some things away and you have the best series in the world :up:

[Lousada]

My Peugeot 504 was a lot cheaper than an S2000. Should we have a one make series of old 504's?

:up: I'd love that, but only if you compete too. So I can slag you off on internet forums because you don't win every rally with a 30 minute lead despite having previous road experience in a 504.

[Lousada]

To purchase one yes but the running costs are not far away from a WRC car what I've heard...

I don't know. S2000 cars suck anyway, it's the only thing I really dislike about the IRC.

[Daniel]

:up: I'd love that, but only if you compete too. So I can slag you off on internet forums because you don't win every rally with a 30 minute lead despite having previous road experience in a 504.

Now now! I've got a 5 year plan in the 504RC (504 Rally Championship) so don't expect too much from me so soon ;)

It's more likely people would be moaning about someone winning by 30 minutes than anything anyway. They don't want to see someone driving the car 100% as fast as it can go. They want to see 5 people who can't go 100% and are about eqal.

[DonJippo]

I don't know. S2000 cars suck anyway, it's the only thing I really dislike about the IRC.

Personally I don't dislike S2000 at all just that it ain't the stairways to heaven. With IRC I fail to see the point...other than media fight Eurosport vs ISC...

[Lousada]

Personally I don't dislike S2000 at all just that it ain't the stairways to heaven. With IRC I fail to see the point...other than media fight Eurosport vs ISC...

I dislike the S2000 because it's pointless and it could have been so much better. I think the IRC has some value as being a lower and different level to the WRC, and that's what it's intended to be for this moment.

[A.F.F.]

Lousada. Remember that this is just the start of S2000. WHo knows it'll turn out good eventually ?

[Daniel]

Well it can only get more expensive that's for sure.

[Lousada]

Lousada. Remember that this is just the start of S2000. WHo knows it'll turn out good eventually ?

It's a 4x4 and it's definately slower than a WRC. Sorry but I don't have too much fate in it.

[Erki]

Some people here seem to have the mindset that there can only be one good rallying championship. It's either WRC or IRC. I personally think it's possible to have WRC and IRC both at the same time, both supporting each other.
People here have said that circuit racing stuff doesn't work on rallying. Excuse me but has the FIA ever really tried to do anything it properly? Unless the cars were a lot cheaper, one big world championship wouldn't work too well for more than only a couple of years at time.

[DonJippo]

I dislike the S2000 because it's pointless and it could have been so much better.

True but maybe we were expecting it to be much more what it was never meant to be, like the next WRC class? I take it more as an successor for the current N-group and if the purpose was to get rid of the current two makes series it has succeeded in a big way.

[Erki]

It's more likely people would be moaning about someone winning by 30 minutes than anything anyway. They don't want to see someone driving the car 100% as fast as it can go. They want to see 5 people who can't go 100% and are about eqal.

I want to see 6 people out there who can drive 100% all the time. Is it too much to ask?

[Daniel]

No. Not at all Erki :) Sometimes there is a problem with supply of good drivers though.

[FrankenSchwinn]

No. Not at all Erki :) Sometimes there is a problem with supply of good drivers though.

supply and demand, economics 101.....




who said i never studied?

[Daniel]

Some people subscribe to the Field of Dreams "Build it and they will come" school of thought. I don't.

[FrankenSchwinn]

in all fairness, the s2000 class does seem appealing in the fact that it's not a 2 make "series" and mentioned above..... and even if the drivers arent there yet, there could be some good ones that 'develop' out of it and the format will give them some credible 4wd skills which is sort of what lacks with the jwrc. and who would complain about seeing a 207 rallying? that is one beautiful car.....

[Daniel]

207 beautiful? They should have called it the MkII 206. If they call that a different car Ï'm FrankenScwinn's girlfriend :mark:

[A.F.F.]

207 beautiful? They should have called it the MkII 206. If they call that a different car Ï'm FrankenScwinn's girlfriend :mark:

No, that makes you FrankenScwinn'd bitch :D

[Daniel]

:laugh:

I guess I just got told :mark:

:rotflmao:

P.S Added that to my sig. It's my only claim to fame!

[FrankenSchwinn]

flatered ;)

does that make me your pimp?