LH's & MS's first corner defense

[race aficionado]

my trouble maker thread . . .

When the race started and LH managed to stay ahead of Kimi after the first corner, the announcers compared LH start with Michael Schumacher's signature starts when he was on pole.
Lewis drove to the center of the track and then positioned himself for the turn.
Is this comparison a good one? is LH getting into a bad habit or is all this just a bunch of whiny bull?


:s mokin:

[zoostation]

IMO is was a schumi-esque move

but i was always a schumi fan ;) so i didnt really mind

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I have no problem with drivers blocking others. I don't understand the 'you can only move once to defend your line' rule. This is racing, the drivers should race each other, not let each other past because they are in a faster car, how is that exciting.

Look at todays race. I found the few laps when Kimi was looking for a gap to pass Lewis before he pitted far more exciting than all of Massa's climb up the field. No-one tried to stop Massa from passing, it was dull.

[ioan]

Look at todays race. I found the few laps when Kimi was looking for a gap to pass Lewis before he pitted far more exciting than all of Massa's climb up the field. No-one tried to stop Massa from passing, it was dull.

That was 2 laps with Kimi attacking Lewis, and he had only one real attempt.
As for Massa I might say that DC, JB and maybe NR didn't just let him through, and his batle with RK was great to watch, certainly better than watching Lewis cruise around in 3rd! Now that was boring, but hey, it was the British GP and we had to see him no matter what. :s

[wedge]

Yes, I very much agree with you, Brown Jon Brow but the 'one move' rule was put in place because in Spa 2000, Schumi blocked Hakkinen and then forced Hakkkinen onto the grass (a lap just before that passing manouvre) and its a bit of a no-no in racing. And it did look like as if Lewis was going to force onto the grass or misjudged how much space he had in his blind spot.

50/50, IMO.

[raphael123]

Lewis was moving back onto the racing line in his defence to take the corner.

I'm surprised how aggressive Lewis was with Kimi, but it was a joy to watch. I'm sure he won't turn into a cheat the way Schumacher did. There's aggressive, and there's punting off oppositions deliberately. Lewis is aggressive, Michael was the latter.

[Bezza]

To be honest, and I'm British...if it was anyone but Hamilton then Allen & Brundle would be questioning the "chop" tactics used by Hamilton today. From what I am aware, you move once and stick to it. Hamilton moved across and then back again - thats TWO movements. If Schumacher had done precisely the same we'd have all manner of abuse on this forum about it ;)

I like Hamilton, but I think he needs to just calm down with these aggressive moves. On one occasion he will get hit from behind, which is very dangerous and the whole point of why your not supposed to cross all over the track in front of another car.

On a more positive note, Raikkonen blew Alonso and Hamilton away today, that was a classic drive :up:

[F1MAN2007]

I am not Lewis fan, but what he did I can accept it as long as he was defending his line. For me it is normal as long as there is no clear FIA rule stating what is blocking or not.

I am saying this, because Massa, Alonso, Kimmi, and others drivers who have been caught in the traffic in previous race were mourning on this.

No one did comment on Heidfeld blocking all the possible way to Fernando in France but what was a comment here?! Massa had the same problem in France and no one did say anything.

Lewis again is used in such manoeuvre because he did the same thing in Indianapolis (if I am not mistaken) when Alonso were trying to overtake him, he came in the center to block Alonso, then Alonso changed to the left untill they become equal on the braking line and Lewis pushed to the left to take the correct line to enter in the right corner and Alonso had to brake and let him pass otherwise it could be a disaster for Macca.

So for me, it is normal now that any driver can block another as much as possible he can until the last second. But it is risky

[tinchote]

Yes, I very much agree with you, Brown Jon Brow but the 'one move' rule was put in place because in Spa 2000, Schumi blocked Hakkinen and then forced Hakkkinen onto the grass (a lap just before that passing manouvre) and its a bit of a no-no in racing. And it did look like as if Lewis was going to force onto the grass or misjudged how much space he had in his blind spot.

50/50, IMO.

I couldn't find a source, but I am almost sure that the "one-move" rule is older than that.


To be honest, and I'm British...if it was anyone but Hamilton then Allen & Brundle would be questioning the "chop" tactics used by Hamilton today. From what I am aware, you move once and stick to it. Hamilton moved across and then back again - thats TWO movements. If Schumacher had done precisely the same we'd have all manner of abuse on this forum about it ;)

I like Hamilton, but I think he needs to just calm down with these aggressive moves. On one occasion he will get hit from behind, which is very dangerous and the whole point of why your not supposed to cross all over the track in front of another car.

On a more positive note, Raikkonen blew Alonso and Hamilton away today, that was a classic drive :up:

:up: My thoughts exactly when Martin said that he thought the move was fair :)

[ajallmindinger]

my trouble maker thread . . .

When the race started and LH managed to stay ahead of Kimi after the first corner, the announcers compared LH start with Michael Schumacher's signature starts when he was on pole.
Lewis drove to the center of the track and then positioned himself for the turn.
Is this comparison a good one? is LH getting into a bad habit or is all this just a bunch of whiny bull?


:s mokin:
Hamilton uses dirty tactics in all his starts. One of these times he is going to take himself and others out in turn one if he keeps it up.

[ioan]

I'm sure he won't turn into a cheat the way Schumacher did. There's aggressive, and there's punting off oppositions deliberately. Lewis is aggressive, Michael was the latter.

And you can't stop talking rubbish! :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

From what I am aware, you move once and stick to it. Hamilton moved across and then back again - thats TWO movements.
I don't know, but isn't it the case that a driver can make one move to defend, and is then allowed to move in order to take the line through corner :confused:

[wmcot]

I would say that it is a fairly normal move in modern F1 racing. We've long ago past the "gentlemen drivers" days in F1.

[ArrowsFA1]

I would say that it is a fairly normal move in modern F1 racing. We've long ago past the "gentlemen drivers" days in F1.
Sadly, it does seem that a rule was needed to tell drivers how to drive :crazy:

[leopard]

Lewis was moving back onto the racing line in his defence to take the corner.

How are you anyway?

I think from Kimi's camera Lewis always has the perfect line, the shortest way to cover distance of the race, might be something why he looks driving faster than the car's ability.
Silverstone just wasn't his day, racing in front home crowd might burden him a lot from being the best (again).

[leopard]

Sadly, it does seem that a rule was needed to tell drivers how to drive :crazy:
They might have been told about it during the course :)

[Flat.tyres]

I don't know, but isn't it the case that a driver can make one move to defend, and is then allowed to move in order to take the line through corner :confused:

why does everyone have a problem understanding this :confused:

in all racing, you position your car to defend your lead and then move back to take the corner. have people on here only ever seen F1 and read magazines???

the 1 move rule is to stop drivers cutting about all down the straight like a demented pinball, scaring the following pack into not making a move for fear of being taken out. A driver needs to be agressive and try and defend their spot. thats part of the game and always has been. if a driver dosent then he gets mugged all over the place.

[Mark]

Arrows is right. You can move once to defend your line, but you can move back again to take the racing line through the corner. Think about it, what would be the point if you couldn't do that? You could move to defend, but then you had to take a slow line through the next corner, there would be no chance of keeping the other guy behind you then!

[ready2rock]

From what I am aware, you move once and stick to it. Hamilton moved across and then back again - thats TWO movements. :up:

It's stated in the rules (im pretty sure anyway) that a driver can move once to defend their line, and then move again in order to make it round the corner. This is the same sort of thing when Alonso tried to pass hamilton in the USA, as hamilton moved back towards the racing line to take the first corner.

There will be a tolerence of what is allowed, but im sure lewis and schumacher aren't the first people to make these moves, their just the ones everybody singles out...thats what i think anyway

[Flat.tyres]

It's stated in the rules (im pretty sure anyway) that a driver can move once to defend their line, and then move again in order to make it round the corner. This is the same sort of thing when Alonso tried to pass hamilton in the USA, as hamilton moved back towards the racing line to take the first corner.

There will be a tolerence of what is allowed, but im sure lewis and schumacher aren't the first people to make these moves, their just the ones everybody singles out...thats what i think anyway

i think it really became an issue when Schumcaher was guilty of moving several times to baulk drivers trying to overtake him. It was more like a clip from Police, Camera, Action than F1 hence christening the name Chop Schuey. Interesting that ioan is trying to apply this title to Lewis now :D

[Mark]

i think it really became an issue when Schumcaher was guilty of moving several times to baulk drivers trying to overtake him. It was more like a clip from Police, Camera, Action than F1 hence christening the name Chop Schuey. Interesting that ioan is trying to apply this title to Lewis now :D

My memory is hazy here, but wasn't it something to do with Belgium 2006? Hill and Schumacher?

[leopard]

Doesn't the race director have limitation on when such move is allowed and when it isn't and penalize the said driver with the sort of 'drive through' penalty or something?

[leopard]

There will be a tolerence of what is allowed, but im sure lewis and schumacher aren't the first people to make these moves, their just the ones everybody singles out...thats what i think anyway

Limitation of that move maybe only tolerance and etiquette and at the end it has correlation with sportsmanship.
I think such move every driver has tendency if they don't want someone else to overtake the position.

[ioan]

My memory is hazy here, but wasn't it something to do with Belgium 2006? Hill and Schumacher?

Your memory surely has a problem there! I mean you could however remember that Hill retired from F1 quite some time before 2006! :D

[andreag]

Arrows is right. You can move once to defend your line, but you can move back again to take the racing line through the corner. Think about it, what would be the point if you couldn't do that? You could move to defend, but then you had to take a slow line through the next corner, there would be no chance of keeping the other guy behind you then!
So, one move to defend, and another to rejoin your line, isn't it?

How many moves do you count here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXcu9uC9RXg

[Flat.tyres]

My memory is hazy here, but wasn't it something to do with Belgium 2006? Hill and Schumacher?

you may have been thinking about the wet Spa in 95 where MS was still on slicks and Hill on wets. Everytime DH went to overtake, MS would drift him out so they either hit or DH dropped back.

senna was the worst for chopping in my opinion. heres a clip where MS learnt some of his trade. :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5MEG88C3Mp0

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Your memory surely has a problem there! I mean you could however remember that Hill retired from F1 quite some time before 2006! :D

I think this is what he meant :D 1995

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8zYGkKzqco0

[ioan]

So, one move to defend, and another to rejoin your line, isn't it?

How many moves do you count here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXcu9uC9RXg

He's just a rookie, he didn't learn to count yet! :D

[Flat.tyres]

I think this is what he meant :D 1995

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8zYGkKzqco0

thats the one. never forget Max driving up the start finish straight the wrong way. we were all cowering with our hands over our heads waiting for it to all kick off.

[ioan]

senna was the worst for chopping in my opinion. heres a clip where MS learnt some of his trade. :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5MEG88C3Mp0

Good job from MS, not only he learned from Senna but he also made short work of him! ;)

[ioan]

I think this is what he meant :D 1995

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8zYGkKzqco0

Wonderful memories coming back there, what a drive, keeping Hill behind for so long while running on slicks in the rain. That's the rain master! :up:
But I fail to see the dodgy moves there, where did he do something wrong?

[ojciec dyrektor]

I have no problem with drivers blocking others. I don't understand the 'you can only move once to defend your line' rule. This is racing, the drivers should race each other, not let each other past because they are in a faster car, how is that exciting.

Look at todays race. I found the few laps when Kimi was looking for a gap to pass Lewis before he pitted far more exciting than all of Massa's climb up the field. No-one tried to stop Massa from passing, it was dull.

I completely agree. It's racing for god's sake, not chess.

[ArrowsFA1]

The need for a "one move" rule has, to some extent, killed the art of overtaking. Drivers shouldn't need rules to tell them how to race an opponent, they should know. If they don't then they shouldn't be in F1.

The problem comes when a driver drives his opponent off the road - onto the grass, towards a wall - to "defend" position. That's not acceptable because there's a difference between saying "back off or pass me" and "back off or crash", and that's largely why there was a need for a rule to be introduced.

The mentality that says "back off or crash" is partly as a result of F1 cars and circuits being so much safer than they ever were. The consequences of an accident that ends up in trees is rather different to one that ends up in a gravel trap.

[race aficionado]

. . . .
the 1 move rule is to stop drivers cutting about all down the straight like a demented pinball, scaring the following pack into not making a move for fear of being taken out. A driver needs to be agressive and try and defend their spot. thats part of the game and always has been. if a driver dosent then he gets mugged all over the place.

When I review the start of Silverstone I see what Arrow describes and I see no problem with it.
When I do quiver is when I see what MS did to his brother a couple of years ago (sorry, I don't have the year nor the exact race but you will remember)- when the move Michael made almost splattered his brother against the wall. Agressive, hell yeah! sportsmanslike? Hell No!

There will always be a fine line between the two and what you hope is that you can have a combination of both where good sportsmanship with an agressive defense is the norm.

:s mokin:

[ShiftingGears]

The need for a "one move" rule has, to some extent, killed the art of overtaking. Drivers shouldn't need rules to tell them how to race an opponent, they should know. If they don't then they shouldn't be in F1.

The problem comes when a driver drives his opponent off the road - onto the grass, towards a wall - to "defend" position. That's not acceptable because there's a difference between saying "back off or pass me" and "back off or crash", and that's largely why there was a need for a rule to be introduced.

The mentality that says "back off or crash" is partly as a result of F1 cars and circuits being so much safer than they ever were. The consequences of an accident that ends up in trees is rather different to one that ends up in a gravel trap.

It reminds me of a Jackie Stewart quote -
"The tracks are safe but now the drivers are dangerous"

Maybe if we put some more dangerous road courses on the calendar *hint*14km Spa*hint* then we'd see some good, fair racing.

[truefan72]

why does everyone have a problem understanding this :confused:

in all racing, you position your car to defend your lead and then move back to take the corner. have people on here only ever seen F1 and read magazines???

the 1 move rule is to stop drivers cutting about all down the straight like a demented pinball, scaring the following pack into not making a move for fear of being taken out. A driver needs to be agressive and try and defend their spot. thats part of the game and always has been. if a driver dosent then he gets mugged all over the place.

thank you

[luvracin]

If it was me I'd just say that the TC wasn't quite right and the wheelspin off the line caused the car to side-slip a bit, I then had to correct it and take my planned line. :p :

[airshifter]

I thought Hamiltons moves were legit racing, both the start and then later closing the door when Kimi was trying to make a move.

The MS "chop" was a much more radical move, done often when the car was already alongside. I thought MS did take it too far at times, but Lewis did some fair racing yesterday.

[donKey jote]

So, one move to defend, and another to rejoin your line, isn't it?

How many moves do you count here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXcu9uC9RXg

3 to warm his tyres, one to defend, and one to rejoin his line, not necessarily in that order :p :
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Crypt]

Meh, he knew that Kimi might of won a drag race, so he did what he had to do. Moves like that to me are fine up to a point, and that's where the fine line between strategy and stupidity come into play.

I am starting to see small chinks in his armor, which lets me know he's friggin human. I wanna see what he can do with a bad car ;)

[Garry Walker]

why does everyone have a problem understanding this :confused:

in all racing, you position your car to defend your lead and then move back to take the corner. have people on here only ever seen F1 and read magazines???

the 1 move rule is to stop drivers cutting about all down the straight like a demented pinball, scaring the following pack into not making a move for fear of being taken out. A driver needs to be agressive and try and defend their spot. thats part of the game and always has been. if a driver dosent then he gets mugged all over the place.

Finally a good post from you, what has happened I wonder :D


People really need to grow some balls - What Lewis did, it was totally ok. It is massively boring to see drivers just give up their position, ffs, fight for it. I loved the way Senna and Schumacher drove, they were extremely hard, sure, sometimes they even crossed the line, but so what? Better that, than seeing someone not fight for it at all. And it is also funny seeing some people say "oh, back in the gentlemen racers days something like this never happened". Guess they have never read what Niki Lauda had to say about that.
But by far the funniest thing is seeing some people, who used to cry a river when Schumi did his chops, now defend LH for totally similar moves. HYPOCRITES.

I have adopted the same driving style to Go-karting, when I go driving with my friends. No room given to anyone, ever. Makes it much more enjoyable and challenging.




senna was the worst for chopping in my opinion. heres a clip where MS learnt some of his trade. :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5MEG88C3Mp0

Actually Senna didnt chop so much there, he just went for his line and Prost backed down like a pussy. Great racing, actually, awesome racing. But I am sure today the idiots would go all mad about that and say its so dangerous, less punish them all by giving them a 10 grid-spot penalty


The need for a "one move" rule has, to some extent, killed the art of overtaking. Drivers shouldn't need rules to tell them how to race an opponent, they should know. If they don't then they shouldn't be in F1.

The problem comes when a driver drives his opponent off the road - onto the grass, towards a wall - to "defend" position. That's not acceptable because there's a difference between saying "back off or pass me" and "back off or crash", and that's largely why there was a need for a rule to be introduced.

Senna tried to force Schumacher onto grass at Spa in 1993 when MS was about to overtake him. Schumi didnt lift and got past Senna with wheels on grass. After that I am sure Senna would have thought twice about trying to force MS onto grass. Todays drivers should use the same method.

[Hendersen]

I remember every time shumacher made a chop at the start of the race, you would hear for the first lap nothing about how ruthless and dangerous schumacher is. Now that hamilton just took the biggest chop I've ever seen anyone in F-1 take, the British commentators call his chop "tough but fair", then immediately spend the entire first lap talking about how Schumacher used to do chops like that.

What a joke. Down with British bigots in F-1!

[ShiftingGears]

I agree, that was quite biased. However on the whole I'm quite pleased with the ITV commentators, although Allen tends to go OTT sometimes.

[fasttrakker55]

The chop he did on Kimi Raikkonen when Kimi was overtaking at the penultimate corner of the lap was quite ruthless and would have taken his front wing off. But the Brits I have as commentators are geniuses who say "Fantastic defense by Hamilton" which caused me to laugh out loud. I would have liked Hamilton hitting Kimi and ending both their races so that Alonso could have won the race just to rub everything in. But Kimi was too smart to let that happen, unfortunately.

[Hendersen]

The chop he did on Kimi Raikkonen when Kimi was overtaking at the penultimate corner of the lap was quite ruthless and would have taken his front wing off. But the Brits I have as commentators are geniuses who say "Fantastic defense by Hamilton" which caused me to laugh out loud. I would have liked Hamilton hitting Kimi and ending both their races so that Alonso could have won the race just to rub everything in. But Kimi was too smart to let that happen, unfortunately.

Oh, I almost forgot that one. Then right after that they said "Kimi thought better of that(trying to pass), as he should."

Then when it was obvious Lewis was losing ground to kimi, they immediately started saying that there was "obviously something wrong with the car".

[airshifter]

I'm not British, nor German, and I thought that the moves Hamilton made were "tough but fair" and legitimate racing moves. In both cases he made the move with amble time to close the door yet leave Kimi room to brake. MS often didn't do that and sent people swerving towards a wall or into the grass.

And for the record, I'm hoping Kimi wins the title.

[fasttrakker55]

Oh, I almost forgot that one. Then right after that they said "Kimi thought better of that(trying to pass), as he should."

Then when it was obvious Lewis was losing ground to kimi, they immediately started saying that there was "obviously something wrong with the car".

That is more arrogant than my commentators. Pity for your coverage, I'd put the TV on mute next time the race is on. And if you have a pet dog let him bark off the whole way itd do a better job commentating what do you think.

[fasttrakker55]

I'm not British, nor German, and I thought that the moves Hamilton made were "tough but fair" and legitimate racing moves. In both cases he made the move with amble time to close the door yet leave Kimi room to brake. MS often didn't do that and sent people swerving towards a wall or into the grass.

And for the record, I'm hoping Kimi wins the title.

The moment where he swerved into Kimi making Kimi lock his wheels smoking them was 'tough but fair'? The only 'tough but fair' move I saw was old man DC defending from Massa. Imagine when Massa got a run on him, DC could have swerved into him again making Massa brake hard will that be 'tough but fair' as well? Anyone can just keep swerving into other cars to make them brake, how does an overtaking work that way? The guy behind can just follow cars till the pitstops or they can DNF trying to overtake the 'tough but fair' guys in front.

[Hendersen]

I thought Hamiltons moves were legit racing, both the start and then later closing the door when Kimi was trying to make a move.

The MS "chop" was a much more radical move, done often when the car was already alongside. I thought MS did take it too far at times, but Lewis did some fair racing yesterday.


Uh, the Schumacher chop was right at the start of the race, and it is exactly what Hamilton pulled the last GP. For the record, I have no problem with move, nor do i question the legality of the move. I only question the commentators reactions to such move, which was night and day.

[Easy Drifter]

Tough? Anybody on this forum ever see Gilles race? Tough but fair. Spain (81?) 7-8 cars trying to get past his pig of a Ferrari all race. They took turns trying. Gilles and Rene? That was tough. Yes I am an old F--- who knew Gilles well.

[Flat.tyres]

I'm not British, nor German, and I thought that the moves Hamilton made were "tough but fair" and legitimate racing moves. In both cases he made the move with amble time to close the door yet leave Kimi room to brake. MS often didn't do that and sent people swerving towards a wall or into the grass.

And for the record, I'm hoping Kimi wins the title.

you quickly realise who the realistic old hands here are :up:

As for Messer Hendersen, what are you on? the fact you think Lewis chopped at all is amazing but to call it the biggest chop youve ever seen leads me to think youve only seen one race :D

this thread is such a non-event, I dont know whay im bothering :rolleyes:

[ioan]

y
As for Messer Hendersen, what are you on? the fact you think Lewis chopped at all is amazing ...

You mean he didn't chop?! Amazing! :p :

[airshifter]

The moment where he swerved into Kimi making Kimi lock his wheels smoking them was 'tough but fair'? The only 'tough but fair' move I saw was old man DC defending from Massa. Imagine when Massa got a run on him, DC could have swerved into him again making Massa brake hard will that be 'tough but fair' as well? Anyone can just keep swerving into other cars to make them brake, how does an overtaking work that way? The guy behind can just follow cars till the pitstops or they can DNF trying to overtake the 'tough but fair' guys in front.

I'm a Kimi fan, and I still think it was fair. Lewis was taking the racing line, and forced the move only when it was clear that Kimi would have forced Lewis off the racing line. Kimi had time to react and avoid car contact.

There is a huge difference between blocking an inside pass or on a start, and blatantly swerving into someone when the move takes you off the racing line.

[Bezza]

I don't know, but isn't it the case that a driver can make one move to defend, and is then allowed to move in order to take the line through corner :confused:

They were two moves though - chopping Kimi off was the first one, then when Kimi came to the outside line Lewis cut back and squeezed him. They were two defensive moves in my opinion, which is why I think it was wrong.

[Hendersen]

You mean he didn't chop?! Amazing! :p :


Must be something in the air over in ye' ol' England. Or maybe it's all the inbred genes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I874nlRohyU&mode=related&search=

Hamilton has made the worst chopping start ever in formula 1 racing in several decades, called the non front running teams "monkeys", worse than anything Schumacher has ever said, had made a host of rookie mistakes but every time he does make one the British commentators claim "it's his first mistak"e, and according to the british media this punk is the second coming of Jesus Christ.

[airshifter]

Must be something in the air over in ye' ol' England. Or maybe it's all the inbred genes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I874nlRohyU&mode=related&search=

Hamilton has made the worst chopping start ever in formula 1 racing in several decades, called the non front running teams "monkeys", worse than anything Schumacher has ever said, had made a host of rookie mistakes but every time he does make one the British commentators claim "it's his first mistak"e, and according to the british media this punk is the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Why don't you show even more bias against Lewis and the Brits?

Before Lewis finished moving to the right, Kimi was steering to the left. So unless you think Kimi was trying to ram into Lewis it's a rather strange argument that Lewis was the one making the aggressive move. It doesn't appear that either of them had to lift, as Kimi stayed right on top of Lewis.

I could care less what nationality either of them are. The commentators by nature will have some favorite, but if you want another view have another commentator view the tape.

[Hendersen]

Why don't you show even more bias against Lewis and the Brits?

Ok, umm, Hamilton is ugly and God always makes sure it's cloudy in England for good reason.



Before Lewis finished moving to the right, Kimi was steering to the left.So unless you think Kimi was trying to ram into Lewis it's a rather strange argument that Lewis was the one making the aggressive move.


Uhh, so I guess logistics and geometry of pole position is a tad confusing for you?



So unless you think Kimi was trying to ram into Lewis it's a rather strange argument that Lewis was the one making the aggressive move. .


Well, it seems like you have more pressing things to worry about before you get to geometry, like functioning eyeballs. The guy debtabaly makes two huge chops, and clearly one at the very least.



I could care less what nationality either of them are. The commentators by nature will have some favorite, but if you want another view have another commentator view the tape.

Unforutnately f-1 has been mired in British trash for longer than you've been born. It grows tiresome after a decade or two of viewing it.

[Andy65]

The thing that got me the most though about the start wasn't so much how lewis chopped Kimi but how quick Kimi was off the line, two races now Kimi's gone off like a little rocket, and this time it was from the dirty side of the track, don't know what Ferrari have done to that car but it's working well for Kimi, I just hope he keeps doing it, oops ! sorry for going off topic.

[Andy65]

Unforutnately f-1 has been mired in British trash for longer than you've been born. It grows tiresome after a decade or two of viewing it.

Ouch !! a little harsh about the British trash, I'm british !! but I do agree ITV is so bias towards Hamilton, when he's doing well it's Hamilton great driving skills but when he's doing badley it's the car, must be something wrong with the car, I think the simple fact is Ferrari have got the car sorted and both Kimi and Alonso are much happier with the tyres now, and Massa has always been there abouts, I think Hamilton may find it's going to get harder now for him to win another race, and if his head gets any bigger he'll soon need to buy a bigger helmet !!

[fasttrakker55]

I'm a Kimi fan, and I still think it was fair. Lewis was taking the racing line, and forced the move only when it was clear that Kimi would have forced Lewis off the racing line. Kimi had time to react and avoid car contact.

There is a huge difference between blocking an inside pass or on a start, and blatantly swerving into someone when the move takes you off the racing line.

Kimi was side by side going into the corner and had to brake his ass off to avoid contact. This is wrong, as Lewis should have given Kimi the space to keep the car on track. What Kimi did was racing genius by forcing Lewis offline before approaching the run to that sharp corner. Lewis knew this and just kept his line even though Kimi was right beside him. Fortunately for BOTH of them Kimi saw this coming and took evading action. If Kimi had Lewis' immature mentality, Alonso would have had a lonely race to record a GB win for himself.

[ArrowsFA1]

Kimi was side by side going into the corner...
Have you got a picture showing them side by side going into the corner, because that's not the way I remember it?

[fasttrakker55]

No I dont, sorry, but I am 100% sure that Kimi was right beside Lewis. And I have a good memory. If you could see a replay of the race you'll see I'm right.

[Flat.tyres]

No I dont, sorry, but I am 100% sure that Kimi was right beside Lewis. And I have a good memory. If you could see a replay of the race you'll see I'm right.

well, your memory seems to be a bit shakey fella.

all I see is Lewis moving to the centre of the track as you would expect and then move outside to take the corner.

at no time is kimi even on his rear wheel, let alone alongside.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=I874nlRohyU

[Garry Walker]

No I dont, sorry, but I am 100% sure that Kimi was right beside Lewis. And I have a good memory. If you could see a replay of the race you'll see I'm right.

Dont you regret posting that now :D


You probably should have clarified that you meant the incident they had on lap 14, but that has never been the issue of this thread.

[Racehound]

I have no problem with drivers blocking others. I don't understand the 'you can only move once to defend your line' rule. This is racing, the drivers should race each other, not let each other past because they are in a faster car, how is that exciting.

Look at todays race. I found the few laps when Kimi was looking for a gap to pass Lewis before he pitted far more exciting than all of Massa's climb up the field. No-one tried to stop Massa from passing, it was dull.
oh.....ok....so lets put f bumpers on them and let them bash each other out of the way if they need to!!!!!!!!.....F1 is a NON-CONTACT!!!!!!! sport!!!!!!.....do you f understand this concept!!!!!?????....at 150+ mph if you touch another car there is a good chance you will be catapulted into the blue yonder and end up gettin killed for it!!!!!.....its not about the gladiatorial side of it!!!!1....f1 is about the technology that goes into developing these cars!!!!!!....how many team owners do you know who would be f ecstatic when their 2 drivers are flat out at 210 and 1 refuses to give way to the faster driver of the 2 and they end up crashing and killing each other at the same time????!!!!!....ron dennis take note you fukwit!!!!!.....all the teams spend millions of pounds to produce these cars......who makes the FASTEST car is what i want to see!!!!....i dont want to see drivers egos interfering with rational judgement when they know that the car behind them is 2 seconds a lap faster than they are!!!!!....i want to see the slow cars at the back and the quick ones at the front....that means the slower drivers move the f outta the way of the faster ones!!!!!

[Racehound]

Lewis was moving back onto the racing line in his defence to take the corner.

I'm surprised how aggressive Lewis was with Kimi, but it was a joy to watch. I'm sure he won't turn into a cheat the way Schumacher did. There's aggressive, and there's punting off oppositions deliberately. Lewis is aggressive, Michael was the latter.
what do you mean he was moving BACK onto the racing line????......are you implying that he was OFF of the racing line????....if he was off of the racing line then his subsequent maneuvre should have been deemed an offence surely????

[Racehound]

No I dont, sorry, but I am 100% sure that Kimi was right beside Lewis. And I have a good memory. If you could see a replay of the race you'll see I'm right.
its on youtube

[Hawkmoon]

This is nothing new. Drivers used to pull up to the pole grid slot at an angle so that they could move to their right or left quicker and cover the guy in second.

[Ranger]

This blocking rule is fair in theory but it ultimately becomes futile when it is impossible to police (which it is). Let the bitches race, I say!

[Roamy]

If you are on pole and get away first you can pick any line you want to drive on. This is correct and the proper way to race. Unless LH is swerving all over the place racing lines are not dictated by anyone. From what I can see so far Lh is a very aggressive racer which is just what the sport needs !!

[pino]

oh.....ok....so lets put f bumpers on them and let them bash each other out of the way if they need to!!!!!!!!.....F1 is a NON-CONTACT!!!!!!! sport!!!!!!.....do you f understand this concept!!!!!?????....at 150+ mph if you touch another car there is a good chance you will be catapulted into the blue yonder and end up gettin killed for it!!!!!.....its not about the gladiatorial side of it!!!!1....f1 is about the technology that goes into developing these cars!!!!!!....how many team owners do you know who would be f ecstatic when their 2 drivers are flat out at 210 and 1 refuses to give way to the faster driver of the 2 and they end up crashing and killing each other at the same time????!!!!!....ron dennis take note you fukwit!!!!!.....all the teams spend millions of pounds to produce these cars......who makes the FASTEST car is what i want to see!!!!....i dont want to see drivers egos interfering with rational judgement when they know that the car behind them is 2 seconds a lap faster than they are!!!!!....i want to see the slow cars at the back and the quick ones at the front....that means the slower drivers move the f outta the way of the faster ones!!!!!

Please be less aggressive when posting and try to write in a way we can better understand you, and I am not referring to the spelling...

Thank You !

[fasttrakker55]

well, your memory seems to be a bit shakey fella.

all I see is Lewis moving to the centre of the track as you would expect and then move outside to take the corner.

at no time is kimi even on his rear wheel, let alone alongside.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=I874nlRohyU

If he wasn't I wonder why he had to take avoiding action by going off the racing line and locking his brakes. Kimi was not directly alongside Lewis but his front wing had at least been up to Lewis' sidepod. Lewis must have had his left mirrors full of red and by right, give Kimi the space while retaining the OUTSIDE which would have given him the INSIDE in the next corner. Instead, he simply cut Kimi off forcing evasive action. I dont think Kimi is that bad a driver to misjudge his braking and have to lock his brakes unneccesarily into that corner.

BTW, I can't use that link...Im currently in a country that has banned that site. Annoying I know, but I'm not in a position to miss company seminars. :(

[fasttrakker55]

Dont you regret posting that now :D


You probably should have clarified that you meant the incident they had on lap 14, but that has never been the issue of this thread.

No actually, I dont regret it at all.

And I know it wasn't the exact issue but something similar. And I made that point by saying in my first post along the lines of "Lewis swerving when Kimi went for an overtaking manouvre in the penultimate corner of the lap".

Those in bold are key words you have very conveniently, missed.

[Flat.tyres]

No actually, I dont regret it at all.

And I know it wasn't the exact issue but something similar. And I made that point by saying in my first post along the lines of "Lewis swerving when Kimi went for an overtaking manouvre in the penultimate corner of the lap".

Those in bold are key words you have very conveniently, missed.

sorry mate, I think I owe you an apology. I thought you were talking about the start of the GP for some reason :confused:

even later on though, I thought it was good hard fighting where Kimi was no way alongside. sorry you cant get youtube but rest assured it confirms what Im saying as someone would pick me up if it didn't.

[fasttrakker55]

No harm no foul.

What Lewis did was not something that should be penalized but just to be advised that it is dangerous driving IMHO. If Kimi was did not react well in that situation they would have crashed for sure. That is all I'm trying to prove.

[jjanicke]

Hamilton clearly pulls a "schuy chop". Just watch the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9InJdmgzQAk

He pulls off the racing line to block kimi, and then heads back to take the first turn. In my opinion that's not racing. I hope Hamilton shapes up and doesn't degrade himself to that style of driving.


No I dont, sorry, but I am 100% sure that Kimi was right beside Lewis. And I have a good memory. If you could see a replay of the race you'll see I'm right.

Nope! Your memory doesn't serve you well. ;)

[airshifter]

If you are on pole and get away first you can pick any line you want to drive on. This is correct and the proper way to race. Unless LH is swerving all over the place racing lines are not dictated by anyone. From what I can see so far Lh is a very aggressive racer which is just what the sport needs !!

This can't possibly be correct Fousto. We're biased towards the Brits because we allow racing. :laugh:


I favor Kimi over Lewis, and I think both moves were legitimate racing moves, without the dangerous driving that has been displayed in the past by others. If a driver in front had to yield any time someone else got just a nose in, it would be easy to pass people at just about any point on the track. That's not racing. Racing is having the ability to take the racing line away and force the leading driver to take the lesser line.

Maybe we could just install headlights to they can flash the bright lights to pass from now on?

[race aficionado]

F1 blinkers?

awesome!!!!

[F1MAN2007]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=I874nlRohyU


This video has been removed due to terms of use violation. :rolleyes:

[fasttrakker55]

Watched the entire replay of the race and spent special attention at this moment..just at the approach to the sharp left hander, Kimi's nose was very clearly right beside Lewis' sidepod. I was 100% sure and haven't changed my opinion.

[Flat.tyres]

This video has been removed due to terms of use violation. :rolleyes:

oh dear, oh dear.

bernie and max obviously realised that people might see what F1 used to be all about and couldnt risk it :(

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe somebody realised the futility of this thread. :rolleyes:

[race aficionado]

This video has been removed due to terms of use violation. :rolleyes:

yep, and I got my Youtube account closed permanently . . . :mad:

and there is still alot of F1 material out there on youtube so I imagine they are in constant cleaning and banning mode as per Bernies orders.


sucks but nothing we can do.


:s mokin:

[jjanicke]

Watched the entire replay of the race and spent special attention at this moment..just at the approach to the sharp left hander, Kimi's nose was very clearly right beside Lewis' sidepod. I was 100% sure and haven't changed my opinion.

So now we're in this uncomfortable "grey" zone. What does "right beside" mean?

Well I would say it means front wheel to front wheel, rear wheel to rear wheel, not nose to rear wheel.

[Flat.tyres]

So now we're in this uncomfortable "grey" zone. What does "right beside" mean?

Well I would say it means front wheel to front wheel, rear wheel to rear wheel, not nose to rear wheel.

Oh, oh, oh. If I get my front wheel alongside his rear wheel in a late brake manouver then he must brake, move off the racing line and let me past.

yeah right. I think some people live on cloud cuckoo land mate. :laugh: even when a driver does get "right beside", wheel to wheel, then it's probably because he's outbraked himself :D

[Brown, Jon Brow]

oh.....ok....so lets put f bumpers on them and let them bash each other out of the way if they need to!!!!!!!!.....F1 is a NON-CONTACT!!!!!!! sport!!!!!!.....do you f understand this concept!!!!!?????....at 150+ mph if you touch another car there is a good chance you will be catapulted into the blue yonder and end up gettin killed for it!!!!!.....its not about the gladiatorial side of it!!!!1....f1 is about the technology that goes into developing these cars!!!!!!....how many team owners do you know who would be f ecstatic when their 2 drivers are flat out at 210 and 1 refuses to give way to the faster driver of the 2 and they end up crashing and killing each other at the same time????!!!!!....ron dennis take note you fukwit!!!!!.....all the teams spend millions of pounds to produce these cars......who makes the FASTEST car is what i want to see!!!!....i dont want to see drivers egos interfering with rational judgement when they know that the car behind them is 2 seconds a lap faster than they are!!!!!....i want to see the slow cars at the back and the quick ones at the front....that means the slower drivers move the f outta the way of the faster ones!!!!!


I don't watch Formula 1 to see the some cars lap faster than others. What you are describing is a procession. If Formula 1 was the way you like then every race would finish like this

Ferrari
Ferrari
McLaren
McLaren
BMW
BMW
Renault
Renault
Williams
Williams

etc.......

How dull. :rolleyes:

I don't want them to bash into each other, I want them to race each other

[fasttrakker55]

So now we're in this uncomfortable "grey" zone. What does "right beside" mean?

Well I would say it means front wheel to front wheel, rear wheel to rear wheel, not nose to rear wheel.

Sorry for the mis-wording, but Kimi's front nose was beside Hamilton's sidepod or the word where "LEWIS" should have been (if it wasn't there) which means that Hamilton had a car beside him. This was on the approach to the corner, just a split second before braking. Should Kimi have had the space or not?

[fasttrakker55]

Oh, oh, oh. If I get my front wheel alongside his rear wheel in a late brake manouver then he must brake, move off the racing line and let me past.

yeah right. I think some people live on cloud cuckoo land mate. :laugh: even when a driver does get "right beside", wheel to wheel, then it's probably because he's outbraked himself :D

Kimi was beside Lewis on the APPROACH to the corner. Not BRAKING. APPROACH is when the cars are accelerating getting ready to BRAKE for the next corner. I apologize, I did not consider people with reading difficulties when posting previously. Hope I'm forgiven by the offended party for this. Anyway, as in my post just above, I believe that a car in that position should have been given his space to make the corner. What Lewis did was force Kimi to take evading action and if he did not brake (locking his wheels) so hard, he would have been on the grass.

To Mr Flat, does this mean that a car that is marginally in front can do whatever he wants, ie, swerve, run other cars off the track or force the other car to take evading action just because he has his nose ahead? This does not seem like rational thinking but a very black and white scenario that can cause death and blood/gore mixed with twisted metal if all drivers take your reasoning as just.

Please review that moment and get back to me, you'll see what I mean. Thank you.

[tinchote]

It's interesting to see the double standards here. The question here is, had Kimi not stepped on the brakes to take evasive action and they crashed, who would have been at fault?

Thinking of similar situations, many here think that MS was at fault (on the inside) with DC in Argentina 98, and the same people think that JPM was not at fault on the inside when passing MS at Nurburgring (02?). So it looks as a matter of convenience to me.

I find it hard to make up my mind on this thing. On the one hand, I don't think that the driver on the outside should simply let the other pass. But on the other, I don't think that the full responsibility of avoding a collision lies on the car behind.

[jjanicke]

Maybe I'm referring to the wrong race. I've been talking about Silverstone 2007. At no point is Kimi even close to being "beside" Lewis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKlOSMvzoi0

What start are we talking about again? P.s. lewis' chop is unforgivable and should be banned from F1. Just look at GP2 in france to understand why. These aren't go karts afterall.

[ShiftingGears]

This can't possibly be correct Fousto. We're biased towards the Brits because we allow racing. :laugh:


I favor Kimi over Lewis, and I think both moves were legitimate racing moves, without the dangerous driving that has been displayed in the past by others. If a driver in front had to yield any time someone else got just a nose in, it would be easy to pass people at just about any point on the track. That's not racing. Racing is having the ability to take the racing line away and force the leading driver to take the lesser line.

Maybe we could just install headlights to they can flash the bright lights to pass from now on?

I view racing as driving as hard as you can, not making it easy, but not chopping someone off either. You can be the toughest person to race against and still be fair. You don't have to be a good driver to chop someone off.

[Valve Bounce]

I've looked at the video, I even had the tape on freeze frame; there was no chop.

[ShiftingGears]

I was going off what was implied through this thread :p : I guess theres no problem with it then!

[Valve Bounce]

I was going off what was implied through this thread :p : I guess theres no problem with it then!

Not really!! just hysteria!!

[fasttrakker55]

Maybe I'm referring to the wrong race. I've been talking about Silverstone 2007. At no point is Kimi even close to being "beside" Lewis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKlOSMvzoi0

What start are we talking about again? P.s. lewis' chop is unforgivable and should be banned from F1. Just look at GP2 in france to understand why. These aren't go karts afterall.

A couple of pages ago I brought up the issue of Lewis shutting out Kimi when Kimi tried an overtaking manouvre which occured just a few laps before Lewis' pitstop. Kimi was beside Lewis for about a second of the race.

[Flat.tyres]

Kimi was beside Lewis on the APPROACH to the corner. Not BRAKING. APPROACH is when the cars are accelerating getting ready to BRAKE for the next corner. I apologize, I did not consider people with reading difficulties when posting previously. Hope I'm forgiven by the offended party for this. Anyway, as in my post just above, I believe that a car in that position should have been given his space to make the corner. What Lewis did was force Kimi to take evading action and if he did not brake (locking his wheels) so hard, he would have been on the grass.

To Mr Flat, does this mean that a car that is marginally in front can do whatever he wants, ie, swerve, run other cars off the track or force the other car to take evading action just because he has his nose ahead? This does not seem like rational thinking but a very black and white scenario that can cause death and blood/gore mixed with twisted metal if all drivers take your reasoning as just.

Please review that moment and get back to me, you'll see what I mean. Thank you.

Mr Tracker.

for the hard of reading, let me explain something. you have a track which consists of straight bits and curvey bits. you drive around this as fast as possible by accellerating after a curvey bit down a straight bit and then you enter the approach for a corner where you position your car to go around the curvey bit and brake. the approach to a corner is the bit where you brake and turn in and if you find yourself accelerating in it, you make a bid splodge on the armco.

now, as you seem to be in a bit of a minority here, perhaps you can provide a clip or some pictures of exactly the part of the race where this chop happened as people have reviewed the race (not relying on your photographic memory) and havent the foggiest what you are on about.

youre not related to Gary are you?

[fasttrakker55]

Your definition/explanation is appreciated. But my point in this matter is and always has been, the fact that if there is a car beside you, even if it is not exactly LEVEL, that car must be given the space to make the next corner on track. If not, the car that is leading can never be passed. This is what racing is all about, the leading car defending in such that he gives the space but keeps the corner tight for the other car to make it difficult.

An example can be used, say Magny Cours when Alonso tried to pass Heidfeld in the penultimate corner of the lap. Alonso was squeezed tight but given room. Due to that, he couldn't make the manouvre stick and Heidfeld gained it back immediately by passing him back. This is a good defense/attack racing between two drivers. If Heidfeld had just chopped in front of Alonso's nose and forced him to brake or run off track, that is the racing you are talking about. It is not in the code of sportsmanship conduct on the racing track. Occasionally, we have this and it goes unpunished. Unfortunately the race stewards can never be counted upon as consistent, we have seen this time and time again on track anyway. But it does not prove the fact that what Hamilton did to Kimi on that particular section of track as the correct way to race.

And no, I dont know who Gary is...but the way you miss my point repeatedly makes me think you could be a relation of Johnny Bravo? Please, lets keep this contructive and to the point. Thank you.

[Flat.tyres]

Your definition/explanation is appreciated. But my point in this matter is and always has been, the fact that if there is a car beside you, even if it is not exactly LEVEL, that car must be given the space to make the next corner on track. If not, the car that is leading can never be passed. This is what racing is all about, the leading car defending in such that he gives the space but keeps the corner tight for the other car to make it difficult.

An example can be used, say Magny Cours when Alonso tried to pass Heidfeld in the penultimate corner of the lap. Alonso was squeezed tight but given room. Due to that, he couldn't make the manouvre stick and Heidfeld gained it back immediately by passing him back. This is a good defense/attack racing between two drivers. If Heidfeld had just chopped in front of Alonso's nose and forced him to brake or run off track, that is the racing you are talking about. It is not in the code of sportsmanship conduct on the racing track. Occasionally, we have this and it goes unpunished. Unfortunately the race stewards can never be counted upon as consistent, we have seen this time and time again on track anyway. But it does not prove the fact that what Hamilton did to Kimi on that particular section of track as the correct way to race.

I pretty much agree with most of that. drivers must give racing room when necessary and the main point of this arguement is that was it necessary to leave the door open on this occassion and I feel it was not only not necessary but would have been a driver error.

there is a true saying in F1 about sticking your nose in where it isn't wanted and you will get it chopped off. basically, if you just stick your nose on someones rear wheel, you deserve to lose it but if a driver has legitimate space alongside, then you are duty bound to give him racing room.

I think we're in agreement with the principles of the matter, the only bone of contention is in this specific case, was Kimi sufficiently alongside or was he pushing a speculative nose in? i think the latter but when we can have a look at your evidence, then I may change my opinion.


And no, I dont know who Gary is...but the way you miss my point repeatedly makes me think you could be a relation of Johnny Bravo? Please, lets keep this contructive and to the point. Thank you.I apologise unreservadly. I thought you were being obtuse and bit back. Sorry for the insult.

BTW, I dont know who Johnny Bravo is either :laugh:

[jjanicke]

A couple of pages ago I brought up the issue of Lewis shutting out Kimi when Kimi tried an overtaking manouvre which occured just a few laps before Lewis' pitstop. Kimi was beside Lewis for about a second of the race.


ah. Sorry for not picking up on that.

[Flat.tyres]

right FT, Im really trying to help you out with this and find the offending move.

On a highlights report, the only thing that comes close is 2 laps into the race. forward about 50 seconds and see if this is what youre refering to?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=efzDCLM2cn4

other than that, can anyone send me a clip of it as I'm really confused now as to what the hell were argueing about.

[Easy Drifter]

Guys (and Gals) don't forget when a driver is committing to a corner he is not looking in his mirrors. Coming into the corner yes, but once he starts the corner no. So if someone is managing to out brake him slightly and get their nose alongside a rear wheel the first driver is not going to know he is there. You have to get far enough up that you can be seen out of the corner of the eye. Then MAYBE you can alter your line enough to give way, as you should. Been on both ends of this.

[Flat.tyres]

Guys (and Gals) don't forget when a driver is committing to a corner he is not looking in his mirrors. Coming into the corner yes, but once he starts the corner no. So if someone is managing to out brake him slightly and get their nose alongside a rear wheel the first driver is not going to know he is there. You have to get far enough up that you can be seen out of the corner of the eye. Then MAYBE you can alter your line enough to give way, as you should. Been on both ends of this.

thats the way we play it :up: