Immigration

[Flat.tyres]

I think most people would accept that immigration in this country has positive and negative benefits.

conservative figures from the home office in 2001 say that 8.3% of the UK's population were born outside of its borders although this figure could be higher. immigrants also make up over half of the UK's population growth between 1991 and 2001.

about half of immigrants are involved in manual labour but there is also a skills drain of professionals from poorer countries coming over here that is further impoverishing these countries.

traditionally, the view was that immigrants would work here to make money and then return to their home countries with wealth and skills that would benefit these regions but recent research suggests that of Eastern European immigrants coming to this country, 6% plan to stay indeffinatly on arrival and 12 months later, this figure is 25%. i think its fair to assume that as these people integrate more into the UK, this number will continue to rise and their home countries will continue to lose out.

so, what about the UK? we have a welfare system that is struggling under this increase in demand. low paid jobs are not attractive to a lot of people that would traditionally take them because benefits are more attractive but these jobs are now taken by immigrants who do 2 or even 3 jobs per week. their work ethic is foreign (pardon the pun) to the UK but it wont be long before the benefits system fails if things continue.

times change, people change and countries change. the UK has always been a multicultural mix of european and celtic races and this is just the latest evolution of this.

the only questions now is what is going to happen to the lower class indigenous population of this country that are ruling themselves out of a future in society. what is going to happen to the former countries of these immigrants that are going to suffer and what will be the effect on the UK in 25 years. positive or negative?

[BDunnell]

One thing that certainly won't happen is any erosion of 'British culture'. I think this is entirely imagined.

You are absolutely right to mention the work ethic of a lot of recent immigrants. I was talking to quite a lot of people with varying political viewpoints about this, and all agreed that they have had extremely positive experiences of, for example, Lithuanian dentists, Polish cleaners, Czech doctors, and so on.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

One thing that certainly won't happen is any erosion of 'British culture'. I think this is entirely imagined.



That's difficult to say as different people have different views on what 'British Culture' is.

If immigrants are going to work, learn the language and not in some way plot against the interests of the country then I don't see any major issues, except for housing.

I think that the issue of the 'brain drain' in the immigrants home country isn't our problem.

[Daniel]

One thing that certainly won't happen is any erosion of 'British culture'. I think this is entirely imagined.

You are absolutely right to mention the work ethic of a lot of recent immigrants. I was talking to quite a lot of people with varying political viewpoints about this, and all agreed that they have had extremely positive experiences of, for example, Lithuanian dentists, Polish cleaners, Czech doctors, and so on.
I was thinking the same. A lot of brits don't want to work hard and have poor work ethic. This is why MG-Rover, GM and Ford are either gone or are in trouble. Do Japanese companies have the same issues? No, because there is a different work ethic there. It's not a problem that's unique to Britain. The US has the same problems with regards to workers getting lazy and wanting things to be so good that the companies become unprofitable. I think it's good that this country has Eastern Europeans coming in who are willing to work for reasonable wages as it keeps companies here competitive.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

. I think it's good that this country has Eastern Europeans coming in who are willing to work for reasonable wages as it keeps companies here competitive.

But what about in the future when we have the 3rd and 4th generation of Eastern Europeans living here. They won't want to do the manual labour work on minimum wage, they will want to go to university and get a highly paid career, and rightly so.

Justifying immigration as a source of cheap labour is unsustainable in my opinion.

[Daniel]

But what about in the future when we have the 3rd and 4th generation of Eastern Europeans living here. They won't want to do the manual labour work on minimum wage, they will want to go to university and get a highly paid career, and rightly so.

Justifying immigration as a source of cheap labour is unsustainable in my opinion.
By that time the chinese and indians will not be wanting to do unrewarding jobs and the market should even out slightly.

[Flat.tyres]

But what about in the future when we have the 3rd and 4th generation of Eastern Europeans living here. They won't want to do the manual labour work on minimum wage, they will want to go to university and get a highly paid career, and rightly so.

Justifying immigration as a source of cheap labour is unsustainable in my opinion.

that is a very valid point.

what does it say about us as a nation that is willing to cherry pick skilled labour from developing countries and manual labour rather than getting our own lazy wan*ers off their fat arses.

easy and cowardly way out?

[BDunnell]

No, I feel that easy economic migration is an entirely natural thing to happen in any market economy, or region of market economies.

[Ian McC]

One thing that certainly won't happen is any erosion of 'British culture'. I think this is entirely imagined.


Probably depends on which inner city area you are in.

[oily oaf]

Immigration? I'm all for it me :)
The wonderful cultural diversity that goes hand in glove with welcoming fellow "citizens of the world" to our shores is a constant source of delight to me.
However I should like to add a small caveat (that's a very expensive Sturgeons egg) to the above statement.
It has recently come to my attention that we now have living among us an Australian brute of South African lineage, yes I know my friends a more vile and appetizing blend of nationalities is hard even to countenance let alone admit to.
This hybrid swine, cheesy of navel, hairy of ear and Renault of car was last spotted roaming aimlessly though a small Welsh village guzzling from a bottle of Dingo Dave's Woolameroo Sippin' Lager, punching small children in the face and hurling abuse at black people or "Kaffirs" as he prefers to call them.
Now I'm not a prejudiced man but the sooner this abomination is burned, banned and buried (head first) the sooner we can all get on with our lives unmolested, safe in the knowledge that this blessed Albion, home of cricket and ram raiding has one less colonial jigaboo to put up with.

Nice bit of lamb for tea tonight :)
Go down nice with a few roast spuds, a small helping of peas and a bit of mint sauce.
That's real ENGLISH grub ya Wombat nibbling filth! :dog:

PS. Daniel. I'm a bit short this week mate. I don't suppose you could see your way clear to lending me 50 smackers till next pay day could ya squire?

[gadjo_dilo]

Nice to see that subjects of the country who was once the biggest colonial empire are now concerned with immigration issues :laugh:

Anyway the migration phenomenon always existed in history, no matter we're talking about transhumance, invasion, colonization or the attraction of the poorer population to the richer regions.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Immigration is a newer issue for the UK, whereas living on my side of the pond, I live on a continent where everyone is decended from or is an immigrant of some sort. The Native Indians always joke they have had a bad immigration policy since 1492.

Immigrants are the backbone of Canadian or American society. They keep everyone honest in that they will compete for jobs and do things for wages that people from here wont do. That in itself can be a bad thing if the immigrants are taken advantage of,or as in the case of the US, often illegals who will not go to the Government to protest their treatment.

Immigrants to any nation, if taken in in the right numbers (not too many that the culture goes through culture shock) can be an asset. Canada has been taking in 200000 or so every year for a while now, and I am seeing that it might be too many too fast. As long as the immigrants hit the ground and want to work, and understand they have to adapt to the culture that is in the country, then it works, but here, it often has hurt in our case, a weaker national identity. It seems you guys in the UK have it right, and although the recent Islamic home grown nut bars are an exception, it seems you have done well. Immigration is a neccessity if the social safety net will be preserved since modern societies don't seem to procreate as often they need to...

[jarrambide]

Mark, weaker national identity?, since I was a little kid I have always believe that Canada has a weaker national identity, I´m 33 so it means this is not something new, but then again, you are the Canadian, my point of is not a valid one, you are the one seeing the situation every day.

Perhaps it´s because I´m comparing your country with U.S. and Mexico, 2 nations with very nationalistic feelings, may theory was that Canada didn´t had an independence war, but visiting Australia proved my theory wrong, my second theory was that although Canada and the U.S. have a lot of differences the coincidences are more than the differences, I believed that Canada identity problems came from being a kind of U.S. half brother, but visiting countries in South America proved that theory wrong, so I´m out of theories.

[Malbec]

But what about in the future when we have the 3rd and 4th generation of Eastern Europeans living here. They won't want to do the manual labour work on minimum wage, they will want to go to university and get a highly paid career, and rightly so.

Justifying immigration as a source of cheap labour is unsustainable in my opinion.

They will be no different to the 3rd/4th generation Eastern or South Europeans who currently live in the UK whose ancestors came over during the chaos of WW2 or just after. There will be lazy ones, hardworking ones and average ones, just as there are in the rest of society.

However you are missing the point. While there will be some immigrants who decide to stay in the UK, plenty more will simply move on to the next country or back home as Eastern Europe catches up with the West.

Immigration is sustainable as a source of cheap labour. However much the Americans moan, their economy has been particularly competitive over the past century and a half BECAUSE they have had so much immigration regardless of whether its legal or illegal.

Anyway eventually the situation may reverse and ambitious British youths may want or have to move overseas if they want to pursue a career if Britain's economy slips. In many parts of Europe that kind of migration is a fact of life.

[donKey jote]

a welcome voice of reason :up:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I just don't think that it is morally correct to get immigrants to do the crappy jobs that we don't want to do. Worse still, many of these immigrants work for a poor wage to increase the profits for their bosses. There is no chance now of our lazy unemployed getting jobs because they simply wouldn't work for the wages that the Eastern Europeans do.


Now I bet some 'clever d!ck' will say surely its more moral for immigrants to work here rather than be unemployed in Poland or wherever. But there are countless Eastern Europeans living on our streets because they can't find long term employment. Many come here without any money or contacts, they don't speak the language, yet they think Britain is going to be paradise. When things don't turn out the way they expected they will turn to drugs, prostitution and crime.

[Loobylou]

I just don't think that it is morally correct to get immigrants to do the crappy jobs that we don't want to do.

I don't see a moral issue here, if they're being paid properly (legal minimum etc) then we're not 'getting them' to take the jobs & we're not taking advantage of them. If they want to do the work that nationals don't want to do becuase it's 'below' them or menial that's fine with me, since our 'white' cleaners left & the two lasses started that hardly speak english I've stopped locking my desk at night & not paid the price for doing so either. :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, weaker national identity?, since I was a little kid I have always believe that Canada has a weaker national identity, I´m 33 so it means this is not something new, but then again, you are the Canadian, my point of is not a valid one, you are the one seeing the situation every day.

Perhaps it´s because I´m comparing your country with U.S. and Mexico, 2 nations with very nationalistic feelings, may theory was that Canada didn´t had an independence war, but visiting Australia proved my theory wrong, my second theory was that although Canada and the U.S. have a lot of differences the coincidences are more than the differences, I believed that Canada identity problems came from being a kind of U.S. half brother, but visiting countries in South America proved that theory wrong, so I´m out of theories.

Jose, Canada takes in so many immigrants vs its size, that we have our largest city now with half its residents as 1st generation immigrants, many from Asia, as different a cultural influence from the WASP roots of Toronto as you can get. IT has made Toronto very interesting and vibrant, but our national identity is a fragile thing.

Canadian history is basically defined by reacting to the US. We became a Confederation because the British didn't want to have to pay for our way to develop in the face of the US reunited after their Civil War. The Brits I think were hoping not to provoke the US by getting out "officially" while the Union to the south had the largest standing army in the world for a brief period of time.

Our whole existence has been trying to define how we were different from America while essentially having their values. In the last 30 years, we have ramped up immigration, partially as a result of the government trying to expand the economy to protect our social safety net, in the face of declining birth's. This massive immigration has been from more "foreign" cultures than what was here (immigrants from the UK and Europe dropped off as the Asians were increased rapidly). This and our multicultural policies, have weakened our national identity once again.

I wont bore the rest of the gang reading this with our national insecurity policies, except to say that while immigration is a good thing, too much of it can alter a fragile national identity. Values that our society were built on are now under attack by people who wanted what Canada had to offer, and now think they know better. This is natural, and they should have a point of view, but it is rather strange to have immigrants speaking out against some of the very things that has allowed the society they came to to thrive....

This is where immigration if not properly implemented to alter to the worse a national identity and culture....

[BDunnell]

I just don't think that it is morally correct to get immigrants to do the crappy jobs that we don't want to do. Worse still, many of these immigrants work for a poor wage to increase the profits for their bosses. There is no chance now of our lazy unemployed getting jobs because they simply wouldn't work for the wages that the Eastern Europeans do.


Now I bet some 'clever d!ck' will say surely its more moral for immigrants to work here rather than be unemployed in Poland or wherever. But there are countless Eastern Europeans living on our streets because they can't find long term employment. Many come here without any money or contacts, they don't speak the language, yet they think Britain is going to be paradise. When things don't turn out the way they expected they will turn to drugs, prostitution and crime.

I think you're forgetting that quite a lot of the people coming over here from eastern Europe are quite highly qualified already. For example, our Polish cleaner at work has an economics degree. I can't imagine her, or others like her, turning to drugs, prostitution or crime!

As for the future generations to come out of the recent wave of immigration from eastern Europe, I recently watched a programme on the Teachers' TV channel about a school, I think in Crewe, which had experienced a massive influx of Polish kids. To see the level to which they had integrated into the school was really heartwarming. As the headteacher commented, some were rather 'high flyers' with excellent academic ability. Two of them, one of whom spoke no English when he arrived at the school a year ago but is now exceptionally fluent, had become designated 'play leaders' in breaktimes, organising and helping to supervise activities for others, as they were so responsible well respected by their peers. All the rest spoke what I thought was really good English. I'm sure this sort of thing is happening elsewhere, if not involving quite such high numbers of children at once. Of course, there will be east European children who are unable to integrate as well, but I don't feel that we have anything much to worry about in the future as a result of what has been happening.

Neither, as I mentioned earlier, do I feel that I am in any way being adversely affected or threatened by any immigration. British culture as I see it is not being threatened, and I feel in no way a 'stranger in my own land', as others would have it. Incidentally, I live in an area of south London where there is a very high proportion of people of immigrant origin, at least.

[Daniel]

I think you're forgetting that quite a lot of the people coming over here from eastern Europe are quite highly qualified already. For example, our Polish cleaner at work has an economics degree. I can't imagine her, or others like her, turning to drugs, prostitution or crime!

As for the future generations to come out of the recent wave of immigration from eastern Europe, I recently watched a programme on the Teachers' TV channel about a school, I think in Crewe, which had experienced a massive influx of Polish kids. To see the level to which they had integrated into the school was really heartwarming. As the headteacher commented, some were rather 'high flyers' with excellent academic ability. Two of them, one of whom spoke no English when he arrived at the school a year ago but is now exceptionally fluent, had become designated 'play leaders' in breaktimes, organising and helping to supervise activities for others, as they were so responsible well respected by their peers. All the rest spoke what I thought was really good English. I'm sure this sort of thing is happening elsewhere, if not involving quite such high numbers of children at once. Of course, there will be east European children who are unable to integrate as well, but I don't feel that we have anything much to worry about in the future as a result of what has been happening.

Neither, as I mentioned earlier, do I feel that I am in any way being adversely affected or threatened by any immigration. British culture as I see it is not being threatened, and I feel in no way a 'stranger in my own land', as others would have it. Incidentally, I live in an area of south London where there is a very high proportion of people of immigrant origin, at least.

Bloody immigrant children! Coming over here and making our children look bad in school :angryfire

[BDunnell]

I know. Disgrace, isn't it.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I think you're forgetting that quite a lot of the people coming over here from eastern Europe are quite highly qualified already. For example, our Polish cleaner at work has an economics degree. I can't imagine her, or others like her, turning to drugs, prostitution or crime!

I don't think it's right that someone with an economics degree is employed as a cleaner :\ How will Poland develop as a country if most of it's citizens with degree's come to work over here as cleaners?



As for the future generations to come out of the recent wave of immigration from eastern Europe, I recently watched a programme on the Teachers' TV channel about a school, I think in Crewe, which had experienced a massive influx of Polish kids. To see the level to which they had integrated into the school was really heartwarming. As the headteacher commented, some were rather 'high flyers' with excellent academic ability. Two of them, one of whom spoke no English when he arrived at the school a year ago but is now exceptionally fluent, had become designated 'play leaders' in breaktimes, organising and helping to supervise activities for others, as they were so responsible well respected by their peers. All the rest spoke what I thought was really good English. I'm sure this sort of thing is happening elsewhere, if not involving quite such high numbers of children at once. Of course, there will be east European children who are unable to integrate as well, but I don't feel that we have anything much to worry about in the future as a result of what has been happening.

As you say there are some places where a number of immigrants in schools haven't integrated so well. On one episode of Trevor McDonald they spoke to British parents who had to find a new school for their children as they were being held back by the non English speaking immigrants, who were getting most of the teacher's time.



Neither, as I mentioned earlier, do I feel that I am in any way being adversely affected or threatened by any immigration. British culture as I see it is not being threatened, and I feel in no way a 'stranger in my own land', as others would have it. Incidentally, I live in an area of south London where there is a very high proportion of people of immigrant origin, at least.

Well I certainly feel threatened that Polish Wiejska Sausage is ruining the sales of more traditional British food. Polish people don't seem to like our dishes such a Curry swilled down with a can of Carlsberg. ;)

Yes, of course there are many positive aspects of immigration but there are two sides to every argument.

[LotusElise]

It is hard to generalise about the effects of immigration on the UK as a whole as different areas have been affected in a number of ways.
Places like the one I have just moved out of, with generally low unemployment and a limited range of industries, have not fared as well as urban areas with a range of jobs available. When the population of a town where everyone depends on "lower" level jobs (distribution in this case), immigrants who are willing to work for lower wages are not always welcome. The lower wages thing is not really their fault - it is more down to a handful of "gangmaster" type employers and a greater number of greedy, exploitative agencies.

[Daniel]

As you say there are some places where a number of immigrants in schools haven't integrated so well. On one episode of Trevor McDonald they spoke to British parents who had to find a new school for their children as they were being held back by the non English speaking immigrants, who were getting most of the teacher's time.

I know of moronic British children who are holding back immigrant children because the teachers need to give the little chavs more time than is really necessary. In fact I know of 8 year old kids who can even talk yet......

Story. Two sides.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I know of moronic British children who are holding back immigrant children because the teachers need to give the little chavs more time than is really necessary. In fact I know of 8 year old kids who can even talk yet......

Story. Two sides.

Yeah, but BDunnel had already argued for the 'otherside'. :p


Personally, I think that any immigrant who doesn't like British styled cars should be deported! ;)

[Daniel]

Yeah, but BDunnel had already argued for the 'otherside'. :p


Personally, I think that any immigrant who doesn't like British styled cars should be deported! ;)

That has nothing to do with this thread.....

[BDunnell]

I know of moronic British children who are holding back immigrant children because the teachers need to give the little chavs more time than is really necessary. In fact I know of 8 year old kids who can even talk yet......

I was just going to say the same thing. My parents didn't feel the need to put me in a different school when I was in mixed-ability classes in which the progress of the more academically-able pupils was surely held back by the slower ones.

[BDunnell]

I don't think it's right that someone with an economics degree is employed as a cleaner :\ How will Poland develop as a country if most of it's citizens with degree's come to work over here as cleaners?

I agree that it hardly seems like an ideal situation. However, what seems to be happening in many cases is that a proportion of the money earned by east European people working in the UK gets sent home to relatives, and put back into the Polish economy. The Poles working in the UK have, it seems, not totally cut their ties with their homeland.

The other thing to remember is that Poland is not now completely empty of skilled people. Some figures quoted by the former Europe minister Denis MacShane in an article in the Guardian the other day bear this out: 'Its economy is growing at three times that of Britain's or France's and it has more inward investment than any European nation but Britain. Its cities are booming, with new skyscrapers, restaurants and one of the youngest populations in the old continent. Flights to the UK are crammed both ways.'

My main worry about Poland is its current reactionary Catholic government, with its appalling rhetoric about gay people in particular and stupid comments towards Germany at the recent EU summit.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I
My main worry about Poland is its current reactionary Catholic government, with its appalling rhetoric about gay people in particular and stupid comments towards Germany at the recent EU summit.

I hear you on the former, but as for the latter, I suppose if you were invaded and pretty much conquerered twice in 50years by the Germans, you too might have an attitude towards them...

[donKey jote]

Sounds more like demagogy to me than an true "attitude towards Germany".

Off topic: Poland certainly does appear have an attitude when it comes to the EU. Maybe part of the price for all those cheap F16's, together with those "special" prisons. Another case of "special relationship" ? :)

Back on topic: the German farmers were complaining about the Polish temp field workers this year...
there weren't enough of them !!!
and they couldn't get enough "Germans" to match the hard work, let alone to even try :dozey:


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Malbec]

The other thing to remember is that Poland is not now completely empty of skilled people. Some figures quoted by the former Europe minister Denis MacShane in an article in the Guardian the other day bear this out: 'Its economy is growing at three times that of Britain's or France's and it has more inward investment than any European nation but Britain. Its cities are booming, with new skyscrapers, restaurants and one of the youngest populations in the old continent. Flights to the UK are crammed both ways.'

My main worry about Poland is its current reactionary Catholic government, with its appalling rhetoric about gay people in particular and stupid comments towards Germany at the recent EU summit.

Exactly. Even with its high emigration rates Poland's economy is still rocketing along. India and China also have high emigration rates particularly of highly skilled workers but they too are growing at an intense rate. Actually the problem for us in the developed world is that as the economic gap between countries like India/China/Poland and us narrows the incentive for people to migrate drops. Where are we going to get people to plug our transient labour shortages then?

As for Poland's behaviour at the recent EU summit which included singlehandedly blocking reform of the voting system with some very poorly chosen comments, they'll find out like Italy and Greece before them that they'll simply be sidelined from the important decision making processes within the EU if they keep annoying the rest.

[Malbec]

Off topic: Poland certainly does appear have an attitude when it comes to the EU. Maybe part of the price for all those cheap F16's, together with those "special" prisons. Another case of "special relationship" ? :)

The problem for Poland is that it lost so much during the war but was then unable to resolve its complaints with its neighbours both to the east and west for 50 years as it was locked into the Warsaw pact and had little political freedom.

Meanwhile France and Germany set up the EU to both resolve wartime differences and ensure that the war could never be repeated. Most of the rest of Europe has come to terms with their uncomfortable pasts in WW2 and resolved their differences with their former enemies to some degree. Poland never managed this and for them WW2 issues are unfinished business and the EU the means to resolve them. And yes, that means the two morons who are PM and President (surely there is something deeply dodgy about a democracy that allows identical twins to hold the two most powerful positions in the country) of Poland feel the rest of Europe owes them something.

To be fair Germany has done its bit to mend fences, in order to help Poland meet NATO standards for example they donated several divisions worth of old Panther 2 tanks to them for free (who said the Germans didn't have a sense of humour) and have helped them in other respects too.