Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged] [Archive]

Gannex

22nd June 2007, 01:45

Nigel Stepney, who has served Ferrari for more than a decade, who memorably had his foot run over by Michael Schumacher in a botched pit-stop, who has been the manager of race operations for years, has been taken off race duty, told he may not leave the company for pastures new, and must serve out his contract, though he doesn't want to, has now been informed that he will be prosecuted, if Ferrari have their way, for crimes against the team.

It seems likely that the crime being alleged is espionage, in some form or other. Ferrari have dropped broad hints in the last year or so that they suspect they know who the top man was in the conspiracy to feed Ferrari secrets to Toyota. It now seems all but certain that Stepney is their suspect, and this very tragic and dramatic story is going to only get worse.

See Autosport for the latest on this. They broke the story today.

Sleeper

22nd June 2007, 03:07

Read about this in Autosport this afternoon but it didnt mention Stepney. Thats quite a shock as I always thought he was a loyal Ferrari man. Is their anywere on the net that names him?

Valve Bounce

22nd June 2007, 05:10

Here's the link :http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=31850

wmcot

22nd June 2007, 07:19

Wow! Let's make sure we don't speculate too much on this one (I know that's asking a lot.) PitPass said that Ferrari wouldn't give out the details.

ioan

22nd June 2007, 10:50

I suppose they did not want him to leave because he would have been a gain for other teams, so nothing mean there.
But why should he sell infos to other teams? I suppose it wasn't just about the money.

Ranger

22nd June 2007, 12:27

Interesting. Why don't they just put him on gardening leave like every other sacked engineer of F1? That'd just bypass legal costs and the whole legal shenanigans.

BDunnell

22nd June 2007, 17:25

Forgive my ignorance of these matters, but is there a criminal case to be heard in such circumstances? If so, what would it be? Is industrial espionage a criminal offence? I must say I've forgotten.

andreag

22nd June 2007, 17:39

Ferrari have dropped broad hints in the last year or so that they suspect they know who the top man was in the conspiracy to feed Ferrari secrets to Toyota.
To Toyota? :eek:

Last year? :eek:

That means the stolen secrets are part of this year's car.

What's the name of this "spy"? Maxwell Smart?

Flat.tyres

22nd June 2007, 17:48

ioan

22nd June 2007, 18:05

Interesting. Why don't they just put him on gardening leave like every other sacked engineer of F1? That'd just bypass legal costs and the whole legal shenanigans.

You'll have to translate them yourselves (to long and have little time right now):
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/03/motori/formulauno/stagione-2007a/ferrari-esposto/ferrari-esposto.html
http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formula1/Primo_Piano/2007/06_Giugno/22/complotto_2206.shtml

They say it's about sabotage.

William Hunt

22nd June 2007, 19:47

You'll have to translate them yourselves (to long and have little time right now):
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/03/motori/formulauno/stagione-2007a/ferrari-esposto/ferrari-esposto.html
http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formula1/Primo_Piano/2007/06_Giugno/22/complotto_2206.shtml

They say it's about sabotage.

On a Belgian site they also talked about sabotage. I find that hard to believe but there's certainly something going on. Stepney was not happy with the fact that he wasn't promoted after Brawn left, and he was rumoured to be heading to another team, possibly Honda (Brawn was also linked to Honda).

On a delicate matter such as this we will have to wait and see what is really going on here instead of guessing.

gshevlin

22nd June 2007, 21:38

here we go again :rolleyes:

The good old gossip section goes faster than any car I know :D

Besides, looking at the Toyota, if he had been accepting the brown bags, I think Toyota should sue him for breach of contract :D

Er, not really. Just because you receive a rival's design and can build a copy of it does not mean that you understand it. The previous espionage incident involving Toyota F1 concerned the copying of large parts of the design of the Ferrari F2002 on the 2003 Toyota car. That car was not especially competitive either, which probably means that Toyota either did not copy it properly and/or did not understand how it worked in the first place. Exactly the same thing heppened in the late 1970's when Lotus pioneered ground effect in F1. In 1979 just about every team copied the Lotus, but the only team that succeeded was Williams with the FW07 (and even Lotus outsmarted themselves that year).

Repeat after me: Copying is not Understanding...

donKey jote

22nd June 2007, 23:38

They say it's about sabotage.

Apparently a strange substance was found in their tanks before monaco :s

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/Ferrari/cree/tiene/enemigo/casa/elpepudep/20070622elpepudep_6/Tes

ioan

23rd June 2007, 00:42

Some mysterious powder, that is being analyzed at the moment.

Sleeper

23rd June 2007, 02:31

This may help to shed some light on the subject, though not much as it appears no one is saying much. http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39737

Valve Bounce

23rd June 2007, 04:12

.
But why should he sell infos to other teams? I suppose it wasn't just about the money.

I am not suggesting at all that this concerns Nigel.

But to answer your question, depending on what you sell, especially Black Box secrets, details of new seamless change transmission designs and so on, the returns could be worth ginormous gazillions.

Then, also of course, if a team had a dodgy fuel tank with secret compartments and this particular team could do well by running underweight during quals and first and second stints, and this information could be sold to a rival who would then pass such information onto the FIA, then yeah!! this could be a reason why some mechanics who is fired by this team would want to pass on this information. Not that I am suggesting such a thing could possibly happen in F1, mind you. :rolleyes:

mstillhere

23rd June 2007, 05:21

I don't want to sound like I am this genious or anything, but if we analize what papers are saying, this guy, Nigel, when nobody was around, walks towards the cars with a bag containing a mysterious powder in his hands. He dumps it in the tanks of these two cars, while is doing that, some of the powder falls around the cars and on the floor and after he's done...................HE DOES NOT CLEAN UP THE MESS????? How about leaving your business card behind? I am telling you, if he does not get arrested for damaging private property he should be arrested for STUPIDITY. That's quiete the plan. I want to sabotage these two cars but I'll leave some traces around, so that they can figure this out???????????????????? I don't get it.
OR if that's what really happend, they should arrest the Ferrari mechanics for stupidity, for seing this stuff around and not figuring it out. :) :) :)

PS Nigel Stepney has been notified by the SWA (Saboteur World Association) that he has been stripped of his membership and advised him to return/trash his online earned degree and get one from a real college. :) :)

Valve Bounce

23rd June 2007, 05:26

When you read about this in the Bild, please give me the link. Ta!!

Ian McC

23rd June 2007, 11:23

Bizarre to put it mildly! Well you get everything else in F1 so why not spying :D

ioan

23rd June 2007, 16:19

Attorney rules out sabotage.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60078

mstillhere

23rd June 2007, 17:12

Attorney rules out sabotage.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60078

Two things in attorney's statement don't check out:

1. When he says: "From what I've learned, many types of offences can be identified, such as aggravated damage or sporting fraud" He is not mentioning an other charge: aggravated assault. That's because, according to the magistrate leading this investigation, sabotaging an engine (well...in this case at least two) you also jeopardize the life of the drivers that at the moment are driving these cars a such amazing speeds.

2. When he says: "On the matter of Stepney being unreachable, it must not be considered as an attempt to flee. I'm convinced he is on vacation and in the dark about this story'

If Stepney is on vacation and unaware of this situation, who hired his attorney? Ferrari?

An other interesting story that's developping amoung the Italian tifosi, is last year Schumacker's engine problem. It had not occured in 6 years, and all of the sudden, in a very crucial moment of the championship, his engine blows up in flames. Given the fact that Stepney then was still with the team, would he have any thing to do with it? The saga continues.

Valve Bounce

23rd June 2007, 17:59

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19303.html

mstillhere

23rd June 2007, 18:32

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19303.html

Good article. I could actually make this article better, I dare saying, by completing one the sentences in this article. Where it says: " Stepney started his F1 career at the age of 21" I would complete it by saying: " and he ended it at the age of 49". Still assuming that what is being reported by the media is correct, in fact, after all this, fair or not fair, I don't think there is going to be a team who would want to hire him anymore.

GP-M3

23rd June 2007, 20:38

Attorney rules out sabotage.

That's just misleading at best... HIS (Stepne's) attorney ruled out sabatoge.

F1boat

23rd June 2007, 20:50

Very ugly, very ugly. I am shocked.

ioan

23rd June 2007, 22:52

That's just misleading at best... HIS (Stepne's) attorney ruled out sabatoge.

There was link for those who know where to click. :rolleyes:

mstillhere

23rd June 2007, 22:52

Breaking News: We found out where Stepny is: in the Filippines on vacation. He's planning to be back in July. It's not known how......eagerly....

Valve Bounce

24th June 2007, 01:08

That's just misleading at best... HIS (Stepne's) attorney ruled out sabatoge.

Well, OJ's attorney ruled out murder. :rolleyes:

wmcot

24th June 2007, 08:43

Well, OJ's attorney ruled out murder. :rolleyes:

Anybody know if Stepney is missing a glove? (BTW - OJ was framed by Ron and Nicole! LINK - http://www.joefrank.com/amember/free/index.php?request=5710)

Gannex

25th June 2007, 03:11

Forgive my ignorance of these matters, but is there a criminal case to be heard in such circumstances? If so, what would it be? Is industrial espionage a criminal offence? I must say I've forgotten.

Certainly, BDunnell, industrial espionage can be criminal. In almost any jurisdiction, so probably even in Italy, the law criminalises theft, misappropriation, sale of stolen goods, and a host of other activities that a man would have to engage in to make money out of selling corporate secrets to his employer's competitor. These would all be civil wrongs as well, but the key in the Stepney case is the fact that Stepney's apartment was searched by police. The government does not search your apartment in a civil case.

The search tells us that Ferrari must have complained of a crime, and that the police and prosecutors took the criminal complaint seriously enough to get the Italian equivalent of a search warrant. So this is clearly a serious problem for Mr. Stepney, as he is facing possible criminal charges.

Stepney quickly fired his court-appointed counsel and hired his own lawyer. He then declared, through counsel, that he was anxious to cooperate with the Italian authorities in every way, answer their questions, and put his faith in the justice system. I would have advised him to keep his mouth firmly shut.

mstillhere

25th June 2007, 04:58

in the Stepney case is the fact that Stepney's apartment was searched by police. The government does not search your apartment in a civil case.

The search tells us that Ferrari must have complained of a crime, and that the police and prosecutors took the criminal complaint seriously enough to get the Italian equivalent of a search warrant. So this is clearly a serious problem for Mr. Stepney, as he is facing possible criminal charges.
Very interesting point. And the fact the he fired the court appointed attorney and hired his own is also very interesting. In my opinion it means that he is very worried (for something he did not do??) and he needs to hire the best attorney money can buy.

Valve Bounce

25th June 2007, 07:16

N. Jones

25th June 2007, 19:11

I believe that Stepney wants to leave Ferrari and this accusation is Ferrari's way of keeping him around so they can discredit him to the point where no one else will want to hire him.

Gannex

25th June 2007, 22:48

I believe that Stepney wants to leave Ferrari and this accusation is Ferrari's way of keeping him around so they can discredit him to the point where no one else will want to hire him.
Absolutely impossible. To fabricate a criminal complaint is itself a crime, and a serious one. Not only is it a crime, it is also a tort, or civil wrong, and would leave Ferrari vulnerable to a massive claim by Stepney for damages. So Ferrari would stand to lose millions of pounds for conspiring as you suggest they conspired, and the individuals at Ferrari who were involved in the conspiracy would be facing serious jail time. Finally, for your conspiracy theory to be accurate, the Modena police would either have to be involved, or so gullible as to not be able to spot a frame-up when presented with it. More likely than your theory being correct, in my opinion, is the possibility that Elvis Presley secretly sabotaged the Ferraris at Monza. I hear he was seen in the paddock, hounding Lewis Hamilton for an autograph.

Valve Bounce

26th June 2007, 03:10

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=31860

We don't know what Ferrari's complaint was so many of the rumours are far from believable.

mstillhere

26th June 2007, 05:03

If anyone here hasn't read all the rumours posted above, then forget it, because it is all consolidated into the one report here: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21960199-2722,00.html

It is almost as if the writer visited this forum, and collated all the rumours into the one article.

Hope it was worth it!!

I did read somewhere that it would take the Italian legal system more than a year to process this case; if there was nothing solid in it against Stepney, he would be finished within hte F1 community anyway.

After reading the article I perceived the author af the article being pretty sure that Stepney is being accused of sabotage. That's interesting.
I found the following passage of interest as well:"Since the mysterious powder was discovered, the Ferrari team's performance has fallen in the past three grands prix." Is anybody agreeing with this article that Ferrari has been under performing because of Stepney's sabotage or not? I for one, I would think that there is a strong chance that's the case (I love intrigues). Mainly because I think that Ferrari has better things to do (going back into winning races, for example) than go hanging around at the police office without having strong evidence in their hands. That's serious stuff. I wonder how Kimi and Massa feel about it. Releived???

Valve Bounce

26th June 2007, 05:10

I read that article from The Australian, and I got the impression that the writer trawled through all the forums and websites and gathered all the silly rumours and consolidated it all into one article without verifying any of the rumours.

The worse part of all this, as I posted earlier, is that this whole saga will drag on for well over a year and Stepney's reputation will be damaged during this period by more rumours and inuendo.

I would challenge The Australian to say that they stand by their article.

wmcot

26th June 2007, 07:37

Absolutely impossible. To fabricate a criminal complaint is itself a crime, and a serious one. Not only is it a crime, it is also a tort, or civil wrong, and would leave Ferrari vulnerable to a massive claim by Stepney for damages. So Ferrari would stand to lose millions of pounds for conspiring as you suggest they conspired, and the individuals at Ferrari who were involved in the conspiracy would be facing serious jail time. Finally, for your conspiracy theory to be accurate, the Modena police would either have to be involved, or so gullible as to not be able to spot a frame-up when presented with it. More likely than your theory being correct, in my opinion, is the possibility that Elvis Presley secretly sabotaged the Ferraris at Monza. I hear he was seen in the paddock, hounding Lewis Hamilton for an autograph.

Everyone knows that Ferrari, the Italian court system, Modena police, The FIA, The Vatican, etc. are run by the Mafia which is in turn run by Max and Bernie!! :)

Gannex

26th June 2007, 09:06

. . .I perceived the author af the article being pretty sure that Stepney is being accused of sabotage. . . .Is anybody agreeing with this article that Ferrari has been under performing because of Stepney's sabotage or not? I for one. . . would think that there is a strong chance that's the case (I love intrigues). . .
Ferrari have said very little about the nature of their complaint against Nigel Stepney, but a Ferrari spokesman has told Reuters that "it is not related to any event; it is related to his behaviour." A pattern of revealing Ferrari's secrets would be "behaviour", whereas sabotaging the cars at Monaco would, to my mind, be an "event". I take Ferrari's comment, therefore, to be a coy way of saying that the sabotage stories are completely untrue.

I also note that Stepney's original lawyer, Luca Brezigher, is quoted by Gazzetta dello Sport as having said "I can only say with certainty that Stepney is formally investigated, but the charge against him at the moment is rather unspecified. . . From what I've learned, many types of offences can be identified, such as aggravated damage or sporting fraud, but I'd rule out sabotage." Yet another strong hint, from a person in a position to know, that the sabotage story is untrue.

Far more likely, in my view, than the fanciful image of a sulking Nigel Stepney sprinkling mysterious powder into the Ferraris' fuel tanks, is the rather more traditional method of betraying one's employer: revealing secret information. That's what I believe Nigel Stepney is accused of having done, and if he did indeed do it, it might have been for money, or possibly to curry favour with a potential employer, or simply as a way of putting two fingers up to the face of a company that, he felt, had treated him worse than shabbily. Disgruntled employees often become careless to the point of recklessness with the company's confidences. We know Stepney was disgruntled. We know he is accused of criminal behaviour. We know Ferrari's secrets were systematically disclosed to Toyota by two employees while Stepney was in charge. We know the first lawyer for Stepney denied it is sabotage. I feel the evidence all points one way: Stepney is accused of espionage, not sabotage.

Valve Bounce

26th June 2007, 14:39

Or he may have been making out with the Boss's wife, or pinching money from the petty cash, or singing God save the Queen into the mike during the races, or ..................

Why don't we have a guess-a-thon? :rolleyes:

mstillhere

27th June 2007, 04:21

Ferrari have said very little about the nature of their complaint against Nigel Stepney, but a Ferrari spokesman has told Reuters that "it is not related to any event; it is related to his behaviour." A pattern of revealing Ferrari's secrets would be "behaviour", whereas sabotaging the cars at Monaco would, to my mind, be an "event". I take Ferrari's comment, therefore, to be a coy way of saying that the sabotage stories are completely untrue.

I also note that Stepney's original lawyer, Luca Brezigher, is quoted by Gazzetta dello Sport as having said "I can only say with certainty that Stepney is formally investigated, but the charge against him at the moment is rather unspecified. . . From what I've learned, many types of offences can be identified, such as aggravated damage or sporting fraud, but I'd rule out sabotage." Yet another strong hint, from a person in a position to know, that the sabotage story is untrue.

Far more likely, in my view, than the fanciful image of a sulking Nigel Stepney sprinkling mysterious powder into the Ferraris' fuel tanks, is the rather more traditional method of betraying one's employer: revealing secret information. That's what I believe Nigel Stepney is accused of having done, and if he did indeed do it, it might have been for money, or possibly to curry favour with a potential employer, or simply as a way of putting two fingers up to the face of a company that, he felt, had treated him worse than shabbily. Disgruntled employees often become careless to the point of recklessness with the company's confidences. We know Stepney was disgruntled. We know he is accused of criminal behaviour. We know Ferrari's secrets were systematically disclosed to Toyota by two employees while Stepney was in charge. We know the first lawyer for Stepney denied it is sabotage. I feel the evidence all points one way: Stepney is accused of espionage, not sabotage.

Hi Gannex,
I think you are onto something, here. And actually your words are being echoed by Luca Colajanni's statements you can read here: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/26062007/13/ferrari-claims-proof-against-stepney.html. Leaving white powder behind seems to be way too stupid as a mistake (as I wrote in one of my previous articles). But if it is espionage, I wonder what team would dare doing something like that again after Toyota was found guilty not too long ago for the exact same crime. The intrigue gets even thicker...yes.....

mstillhere

27th June 2007, 04:23

And actually I just found this article saying pretty much the same thing
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070626095616.shtml

Valve Bounce

27th June 2007, 08:15

This case requires the attention of Inspector Rex immediately.

happyfly2008

27th June 2007, 12:36

good man

Garry Walker

27th June 2007, 12:44

Interesting. Why don't they just put him on gardening leave like every other sacked engineer of F1? That'd just bypass legal costs and the whole legal shenanigans.

Be serious. There is more to this than just trying to not let him go to other teams, this is a criminal enquiry that Ferrari made. This is very serious stuff.

Altogether shocking news

wmcot

28th June 2007, 09:04

I think I'll wait until the courts decide his guilt or innocence. (Unless I can think of a really witty remark, of course!)

Valve Bounce

28th June 2007, 11:02

I think I'll wait until the courts decide his guilt or innocence. (Unless I can think of a really witty remark, of course!)

By that time, you will have forgotten what this is all about.

N. Jones

28th June 2007, 19:43

Absolutely impossible. To fabricate a criminal complaint is itself a crime, and a serious one. Not only is it a crime, it is also a tort, or civil wrong, and would leave Ferrari vulnerable to a massive claim by Stepney for damages. So Ferrari would stand to lose millions of pounds for conspiring as you suggest they conspired, and the individuals at Ferrari who were involved in the conspiracy would be facing serious jail time. Finally, for your conspiracy theory to be accurate, the Modena police would either have to be involved, or so gullible as to not be able to spot a frame-up when presented with it. More likely than your theory being correct, in my opinion, is the possibility that Elvis Presley secretly sabotaged the Ferraris at Monza. I hear he was seen in the paddock, hounding Lewis Hamilton for an autograph.

Did I say I had proof? Does my post above not say I believe????

It is my PERSONAL belief. Whether it is right or wrong I haven't the slightest clue.
I am not eagerly following this story so what happens to him is not going to bring a 'told-you-so' from me.
The whole accusation just doesn't make any sense to me...

ioan

28th June 2007, 20:49

Did I say I had proof? Does my post above not say I believe????

It is my PERSONAL belief. Whether it is right or wrong I haven't the slightest clue.
I am not eagerly following this story so what happens to him is not going to bring a 'told-you-so' from me.
The whole accusation just doesn't make any sense to me...

Don't lose your calm! :D

N. Jones

28th June 2007, 22:40

:erm: Ok. Rough day....

But I am just stating my opinion. I have no proof of whether these charges are true or whether they are trumped up...

BDunnell

28th June 2007, 23:01

Be serious. There is more to this than just trying to not let him go to other teams, this is a criminal enquiry that Ferrari made. This is very serious stuff.

Altogether shocking news

What do you mean by 'a criminal enquiry that Ferrari made'?

Valve Bounce

29th June 2007, 02:50

:erm: Ok. Rough day....

But I am just stating my opinion. I have no proof of whether these charges are true or whether they are trumped up...

I must say that I doubt whether these charges are totally trumped up. However, whether some of it is based on suspicion, and whether some of it cannnot be substantiated in a court of law is possibly closer to what is happening.

What I find disturbing is that these cases in Italy might drag on for years. And what is even more disturbing are the wild rumours that some so called reliable news sources are printing, probably after trawling through this and other discussion forums.

N. Jones

29th June 2007, 04:00

I just find it weird that the guy who was a big part of helping Ferrari stay on top is now an expendable component.

That is how it looks to me....

wmcot

29th June 2007, 08:59

By that time, you will have forgotten what this is all about.

The problem is that so far we don't even KNOW what it is about!

ioan

29th June 2007, 10:08

I just find it weird that the guy who was a big part of helping Ferrari stay on top is now an expendable component.

That is how it looks to me....

No one is that much important at Ferrari, not since Enzo is gone.

Ranger

29th June 2007, 10:29

No one is that much important at Ferrari, not since Enzo is gone.
So why do we still hear about the importance of Schuey and Ross Brawn? :p :

ioan

29th June 2007, 10:55

So why do we still hear about the importance of Schuey and Ross Brawn? :p :

Ferrari did not try to much to keep them there for another season, did they?!

F1MAN2007

29th June 2007, 11:16

No one is that much important at Ferrari, not since Enzo is gone.

Even if I am not his fan, I think Schumi was and will be. Anyone can see that.

ioan

29th June 2007, 11:35

Even if I am not his fan, I think Schumi was and will be. Anyone can see that.

Well I am a fan of MS and I think they did push him to retire last year, for whatever reasons.

Gannex

30th June 2007, 01:50

N. Jones

30th June 2007, 02:42

Thanks. I guess I went a little overboard too.

It just seems to me that this whole episode is weird. The SpeedTV guys talked Stepney up so many times (especially Matchett) that I think he must have played a big part in Ferrari's rise and continued dominance. To then accuse him of "bad behavior", and then stealing parts and selling them to other teams?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Stepney
This states that he was thinking of leaving. Then Ferrari move him to a position where he doesn't have to attend races.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/06/23/ferrari_and_nigel_stepney/ This says that he wouldn't mind a change. Now Ferrari is accusing him of an offense which means he isn't going anywhere (or his reputation is taking a hit so no one else would want him).

That's where I got my little theory from.

Valve Bounce

30th June 2007, 04:05

You want theory, just read the rubbish posted in this thread's links.

N. Jones

30th June 2007, 05:17

:rotflmao: LOL
LOL

ioan

3rd July 2007, 11:58

And they sacked him:

<<A team spokesman told Autosport: "An internal disciplinary procedure has been completed and Nigel Stepney is no longer an employee of Ferrari.">>

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2464013,00.html

Big Ben

3rd July 2007, 12:51

I've heard so many jokes but none is so good as the powder theory... That's some strange powder... It only slows the car a few tenths of a second... nothing more... nothing less... :laugh:

Plus... They check the fuel at the end of the race, right?

ArrowsFA1

3rd July 2007, 13:15

During the ITV coverage of the French GP didn't they say there was no "suspicious white powder"?

Whatever the circumstances really are, I find it amazing that Nigel Stepney (profile (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-stenig.html)) is guilty of sabotage :dozey:

Strange goings on in Maranello :crazy:

Valve Bounce

3rd July 2007, 13:25

Maybe they mistook Him for Brendan Fevola. :p :

Zico

3rd July 2007, 18:10

Looks like a McLaren team member has also been implicated and suspended !

A McLaren statement said: "McLaren became aware on the 3 July 2007 that a senior member of its technical organisation was the subject of a Ferrari investigation regarding the receipt of technical information.

"The team has learnt that this individual had personally received a package of technical information from a Ferrari employee at the end of April.

"While McLaren has no involvement in the matter and condemns such actions it will fully co-operate with any investigation. The individual has in the meanwhile been suspended by the company pending a full and proper investigation of the matter."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6264904.stm

Big Ben

3rd July 2007, 18:46

it makes sense... In the end the whole thing will explain how McLaren stole speed from Ferrari for 3 races

TMorel

3rd July 2007, 18:57

it makes sense... In the end the whole thing will explain how McLaren stole speed from Ferrari for 3 races

Why the hell would anyone want to steal Scot Speed, and what the heck is he doing in a McLaren ?

MrPonx

3rd July 2007, 21:33

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=259693

McLaren's reliability didn't come from no where... omg

I'm speachless

McLaren has suspended a senior member of its technical staff after discovering that he received confidential information from a Ferrari employee earlier this year.
The British squad said in a statement that the individual in question – who was not named – was being investigated by Ferrari for industrial espionage.
The statement read: “McLaren became aware on 3rd July 2007 that a senior member of its technical organisation was the subject of a Ferrari investigation regarding the receipt of technical information.
“The team has learnt that this individual had personally received a package of technical information from a Ferrari employee at the end of April.
“Whilst McLaren has no involvement in the matter and condemns such actions it will fully co-operate with any investigation.
“The individual has in the meanwhile been suspended by the company pending a full and proper investigation of the matter.
“No further comment will be made.”

MrPonx

3rd July 2007, 21:45

I think McLaren should get disqualified if this is proven to be right, or strip them from the points after they received the information

luvracin

3rd July 2007, 21:52

Whoa there.... You don't know :
a) If the information was even used,
b) what the information was,
c) if design changes based on the information was implemented,

It's a bit of an over-reaction to disqualify a team based on the wrong doings of an individual. It would be different if Mclaren managment had knowledge - however, according to the press release, which is the ONLY information available, Mclaren management had no knowledge.

ICKE

3rd July 2007, 21:57

It was their chief designer! There is NO WAY that the team did not know what was going on or had no idea about possible espionage.

They knew and supported Coughlan or they knew and didnt care, because it was Ferrari.

MrPonx

3rd July 2007, 21:58

that's why I said if it was proven to be true...

since 1999 McLaren haven't had a half year with 100% reliability, and that makes you think

ICKE

3rd July 2007, 22:00

zoostation

3rd July 2007, 22:06

come down you two

im a ferrari fan, and even i i doubt that mclaren got the upper hand through these supposed 'stolen documents'. lets just wait and see where this goes. it could be proven to be not true for all we know.

zoostation

3rd July 2007, 22:08

Why the hell would anyone want to steal Scot Speed, and what the heck is he doing in a McLaren ?

hahaha

ojciec dyrektor

3rd July 2007, 22:15

Why the hell would anyone want to steal Scot Speed, and what the heck is he doing in a McLaren ?

:up: :D

gm99

3rd July 2007, 23:01

OMG, indeed - teams spying on other teams? What an innovative concept, I wonder why no-one has thought of that before...

What next - teams trying to lure key technical people away from other teams for ridiculous amounts of money?

TMorel

3rd July 2007, 23:35

I think this is all a plan by Spyker to nab the key personal from various teams.
Get them framed for crimes they didn't commit, and then when no one else wants them, hire them cheap and build a top team.

Just you watch...

Big Ben

4th July 2007, 00:09

They should not let Mclaren race in Silverstone, because this investigation needs to be completed and the responsible people need to be brought to justice.

How can Ferrari accept that their own information might be used against them in the championship. This is serious stuff, because teams burn hundreds of millions in order win.

Whatever the outcome, the championship is tainted.

hilarious... You are a funny boy

I like a lot the way you think... They shouldn't allow them to compete at Silverstone... I guess they are guilty until they prove the contrary

whatever the outcome, the excuse was found.

Big Ben

4th July 2007, 00:14

it makes sense... In the end the whole thing will explain how McLaren stole speed from Ferrari for 3 races

i was right about this one... there's already a thread going on where people start punishing McLaren really hard because they've stolen a ferrari and painted like a mirror

I know what McLaren took from ferrari... vodafone... OMG

ICKE

4th July 2007, 00:21

veeten

4th July 2007, 00:27

:s hock: Spys!... they're everywhere! :uhoh:

:p :

wmcot

4th July 2007, 00:28

I'm not going to jump to conclusions that these secrets turned McLaren's fortune around magically, but I'm also not stupid enough to think that nobody at McLaren saw the documents except the single person mentioned!! Nobody steals information and just holds onto it for his own enjoyment! It will be up to the investigators to see how far this has gone within the organizations. I am very curious as to exactly what type of info was exchanged. If there is high-level involvement in this, I would expect to see RD sell his shares quickly and make an exit from the team.

Mickey T

4th July 2007, 00:45

The fact that Mclaren sacked their technical director at moments notice tells us that they probably knew what was going on. They had no defensive response, straight dismissal.

However I dont expect them to be punished.

been around motorsport for a while, have you?

don't be so innocent. what do you think this is?

put the dummy back in before ioan reads your post and hits the rev limiter.

the really curious thing is that very little raw data is applicable to non-source teams anyway.

apart from the teams sharing a major component or two (eg, toyota and williams, honda and aguri, renault and RBR) nobody uses common parts, so there's no baseline. none of it makes any sense on any car other than the one the data is gleaned from.

even aero is not immune. first, you need to have a good, pure chassis setup. then you need aero that works WITH that setup.

but - and here's the fun bit - it only works with THAT setup.

you can take ideas and reapply them to your own chassis, your own braking system, your own heat loads, your own lubricant viscosity, your own carbon shear rate etc.

but it's not like touring cars or F3 or GP2 where these things are directly applicable.

Even tyre info spying is so common that all the team spies talk to each other to make sure they've noted the right specifications etc.

please come down off the high horse.

Has McLaren benefited? maybe. did McLaren know approximately? Maybe. did McLaren know exactly? seriously doubt it.

and you could ask and receive the same answers for every team on the grid.

ioan

4th July 2007, 00:55

put the dummy back in before ioan reads your post and hits the rev limiter.

don't worry for me! :D
I'll sit and wait patiently. :p :

Ian McC

4th July 2007, 01:00

Valve Bounce

4th July 2007, 01:00

They should not let Mclaren race in Silverstone, because this investigation needs to be completed and the responsible people need to be brought to justice.

How can Ferrari accept that their own information might be used against them in the championship. This is serious stuff, because teams burn hundreds of millions in order win.

Whatever the outcome, the championship is tainted.

They should round up all the McLaren cars, and burn them under a cross by men wearing pointed head caps and hoods. That'll teach anyone who wants to engage in espionage in the future to beat the red cars.

Ian McC

4th July 2007, 01:03

don't worry for me! :D
I'll sit and wait patiently. :p :

For once I give you the :up: ! :D

Valve Bounce

4th July 2007, 01:07

i was right about this one... there's already a thread going on where people start punishing McLaren really hard because they've stolen a ferrari and painted like a mirror

I know what McLaren took from ferrari... vodafone... OMG

Yrah!! but Ferrari forgot to remove the all important sim card, and all teh information was stored on the sim card. I know because I read all about this in today's newspaper - there were pages of this about sim cards.

Oh yes!! then there is the laptop. That will provide a fountain of information from the e-mails alone, not to mention the guff that guys have posted in this forum.

Valve Bounce

4th July 2007, 01:10

I'm just wondering at what stage this thread will link this guy to the silly buggers who drove the jeep through the glasgow airport glass door. They must be working real hard on those sim cards. :rolleyes:

Hawkmoon

4th July 2007, 01:46

They should round up all the McLaren cars, and burn them under a cross by men wearing pointed head caps and hoods. That'll teach anyone who wants to engage in espionage in the future to beat the red cars.

I've been saying Ron Dennis is the devil for years! But would anybody listen to me? :D

Ranger

4th July 2007, 02:01

I somehow think that the 19000rpm rev-limiter would have a greater effect on McLaren's reliability than an unknown component which we all seem to be jumping up and down about!

RacingViews

4th July 2007, 04:25

Don't worry about Mc Laren stealing Vodafone, soon the McLarens will be leaving Europe again and so will be out of the coverage area, so probably won't work until getting back to Europe ;)

leopard

4th July 2007, 05:30

that's why I said if it was proven to be true...

since 1999 McLaren haven't had a half year with 100% reliability, and that makes you think
You can't be so sure about that, I may be an exception.

MrPonx

4th July 2007, 07:20

The McLaren engineer at the centre of the espionage saga that has rocked Formula 1 is believed to be the team’s erstwhile chief designer Mike Coughlan.

McLaren announced on Tuesday that it had suspended a senior member of its technical staff after learning that he had received classified information from a Ferrari employee at the end of April.

The Woking squad did not identify the individual, but reports in the British and Italian media have named Coughlan, who worked closely with Nigel Stepney at Benetton and Ferrari in the 1990s.
Stepney, a longstanding Ferrari employee, is currently being investigated by the public prosecution office in Modena, Italy, after the Maranello team lodged a formal complaint last month.
On Tuesday morning Ferrari announced that it had dismissed Stepney after conducting its own internal inquiry into his actions.

The team later confirmed that it instigated legal action in England against the McLaren engineer and obtained a warrant for a search of his property.
That evidence came to light after a police search of Coughlan’s house uncovered documents allegedly belonging to Ferrari.

In a statement issued on Tuesday evening, the Italian team said: “Ferrari announces it has recently presented a case against Nigel Stepney and an engineer from the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes team with the Modena Tribunal, concerning the theft of technical information.
“Furthermore, legal action has been instigated in England and a search warrant has been issued concerning the engineer. This produced a positive outcome.

“Ferrari reserves the right to consider all implications, be they criminal, civil or of any other nature, according to the applicable laws.”

Stepney, who is on holiday in the Philippines, has maintained his innocence and claims that he is the victim of a dirty tricks campaign.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39889

ioan

4th July 2007, 08:49

I somehow think that the 19000rpm rev-limiter would have a greater effect on McLaren's reliability than an unknown component which we all seem to be jumping up and down about!

Agreed.
However this will cast a lot of doubt on the McLaren team, after all it's their chief designer we are talking about.

wmcot

4th July 2007, 09:01

been around motorsport for a while, have you?

don't be so innocent. what do you think this is?

put the dummy back in before ioan reads your post and hits the rev limiter.

the really curious thing is that very little raw data is applicable to non-source teams anyway.

apart from the teams sharing a major component or two (eg, toyota and williams, honda and aguri, renault and RBR) nobody uses common parts, so there's no baseline. none of it makes any sense on any car other than the one the data is gleaned from.

even aero is not immune. first, you need to have a good, pure chassis setup. then you need aero that works WITH that setup.

but - and here's the fun bit - it only works with THAT setup.

you can take ideas and reapply them to your own chassis, your own braking system, your own heat loads, your own lubricant viscosity, your own carbon shear rate etc.

but it's not like touring cars or F3 or GP2 where these things are directly applicable.

Even tyre info spying is so common that all the team spies talk to each other to make sure they've noted the right specifications etc.

please come down off the high horse.

Has McLaren benefited? maybe. did McLaren know approximately? Maybe. did McLaren know exactly? seriously doubt it.

and you could ask and receive the same answers for every team on the grid.

So that makes it all OK?????

Mark

4th July 2007, 09:08

End of April remember, their car was already fully designed and racing by then.

ioan

4th July 2007, 09:16

End of April remember, their car was already fully designed and racing by then.

But they will continue to develop it the whole season! ;)

F1boat

4th July 2007, 09:49

For me, this explains what happened after Spain. Stepney sabotaged Ferrari and gave some hints to McLaren.
Disgusting silver cars. And Macca fans call Ferrari cheaters. Macca are the true cheaters.
I hope that they are given points deduction, like in NASCAR.

Flat.tyres

4th July 2007, 10:34

this is going to run and run this story.

at the moment, we have to stress that these are allergations that are strongly refuted by those accused. we do not even know what the alledged material was or what it pertained to.

What we do know is that Ferrari have their knickers in a twist about something. I simply refuse to believe that they would have taken these steps without some sort of substantial proof. McLaren also wouldn't have stepped down Mike unless there was a strong suspicion there was some substance to this.

what I find more amazing though is that 2 exceptionally intelligent men would leave a f*cking paper trail behind. it is frankly astonishing!! this story gets stranger by the minute.

so, on the one hand, we have Ferrari claiming they have a smoking gun and on the other we have, if its true, unbeliveable gross stupidity.

I suggest we just see how this plays out before assuming anything at the moment.

now, what if it is true? well, I dont see that the FIA can punish McLaren if it was one individual responsible otherwise you would set a worrying president. if though, it looks like Mike wasn't acting alone then I dont see that they would have any option.

this is going to be the biggest controvacy since Schumacher was proven to have TC on his car. hopefully the FIA will be a little more rigid this time in their judgement should there be a case to answer.

Rusty Spanner

4th July 2007, 10:47

I don't think the FIA can step in and punish until this whole mess has wound its way through the justice system. It wouldn't really be appropriate for them to do anything until then. The teams are independent commercial companies over which the FIA can only inforce the sporting and technical regulations of the championship. They can't get involved in telling the teams how to run their businesses and I doubt they can punish a team from gonig about its business in a way they disagree with.
Yes the charges are very serious and put F1 in a bad light but I'm not sure what they can do about it. And I dare say the FIA is a lot less upset about this than Mercedes and Vodafone are.

Rusty Spanner

4th July 2007, 10:54

What we do know is that Ferrari have their knickers in a twist about something. I simply refuse to believe that they would have taken these steps without some sort of substantial proof. McLaren also wouldn't have stepped down Mike unless there was a strong suspicion there was some substance to this.

I don't think the way either Ferrari or McLaren have acted proves anything either way. I think you need to be seen to be whiter than white considering how serious the allegations are. These teams have to convince huge corporations to part with 10's of millions of dollars inorder to allow them to go racing. And those huge corporations are very protective of their brands and image.

Ranger

4th July 2007, 10:56

I'd think the stumbling block that would prevent McLaren being penalised here is Stepney... provided he did actually "sabotage" the Ferrari cars.

I think the two threads should be merged.

savage86

4th July 2007, 11:36

This is totally stupid! Not letting Mclaren race what the hell?
First of all no one knows if this is even true, Second, can you think of the damage it would do to take all of Macca's points off them because of one man.

To spoil the world championship and for sure annoy many fans so much that already the farce that is formula one will go down the pan for ever.

Lets say for instance a guy from a truck company gave another information about new wheels or somthing. What do you do take all the earnings off the company that recieved it.

utter rubbish, punish the man not the team, who have been working so hard slaving away night and day. Dont punish Lewis and Alonso who have been risking there lives for race wins.

Valve Bounce

4th July 2007, 11:43

Just a thought here: Ferreri have this super dooper seamless gear change transmission - could this have anything to do with that?

OK, maybe not :(

XR8

4th July 2007, 11:51

How can Ron be the devil? The DEVIL is red, isnt it?

Ranger

4th July 2007, 11:51

To spoil the world championship and for sure annoy many fans so much that already the farce that is formula one will go down the pan for ever.
The FIA have done that before -

In 1995 the FIA went to great lengths embarrassing the Toyota works team by banning them from the WRC until 1998 because they were exceeding the power limit imposed on WRC-spec cars. They were categorically cheating, and only got caught nearing the final round of what was a tumultuous season of the WRC (It had only 8 rounds in 1995). At that point in the championship the Toyota Celica's were leading both titles and were the reigning WRC champions.

Given the facts of this saga get pretty messy, the evidence is less conclusive and I don't think either team will be punished by the FIA, bar maybe a huge fine.

However as proven by the point above, the FIA have the power to remove the team and can do so if they deem necessary in this case. Though if I was a tifosi at this time, I wouldn't hold my breath.

MrPonx

4th July 2007, 12:09

well.. Ferrari won't let this go easily..

Meanwhile, with McLaren admitting that 'a senior member of its technical organisation personally received a package of technical information from a Ferrari employee at the end of April', The Guardian reports that 'Ferrari believe that the improvement in McLaren's performance after the Spanish Grand Prix on May 13 is consistent with the apparent leaks at the end of April.'

Mark

4th July 2007, 12:10

Oh dear, this could get messy :mark:

ioan

4th July 2007, 12:19

utter rubbish, punish the man not the team, who have been working so hard slaving away night and day. Dont punish Lewis and Alonso who have been risking there lives for race wins.

The man is part of the team and has a huge influence on it, given his position.

As for the risking their life part, you must be kidding, I mean which driver isn't risking his life in F1?! :rolleyes:

For now we only know (and it was proved when the police searched his home!) that McLaren's chief designer received top secret material from a Ferrari employee. In the mean time the Ferrari employee (Stepney) was sacked by Ferrari for not yet disclosed reasons. Until there is no evidence that McLaren benefited in any way from those informations I can not say they are at fault, although I can't see what those infos were good for anything else.

Do you all remember that we talked about that misterious wind tunnel faileure Ferrari suffered about2 months ago? What if they discovered that it was Stepney's hand in it???

Valve Bounce

4th July 2007, 12:23

Just a thought here: is there any rule in the FIA against spying?

ioan

4th July 2007, 12:33

Just a thought here: is there any rule in the FIA against spying?

Maybe not, but what about bringing the sport into disrepute??? :p :

Ranger

4th July 2007, 12:36

Just a thought here: is there any rule in the FIA against spying?

There's one about intellectual property (the one which caused everyone to blow up because of the customer car debate earlier this year) which would be pretty telling if the parties concerned can find the right information.

Mickey T

4th July 2007, 12:40

Just a thought here: Ferreri have this super dooper seamless gear change transmission - could this have anything to do with that?

OK, maybe not :(

McLaren has one, RBR has one, Williams has one and Toyota uses the Williams version because it couldn't make its own seamless shift work. honda and super aguri have it, too.

ICKE

4th July 2007, 12:50

Gazzetta is reporting that the package contained the whole design for F2007.

This is going to be mega.

Mickey T

4th July 2007, 12:51

The FIA have done that before -

In 1995 the FIA went to great lengths embarrassing the Toyota works team by banning them from the WRC until 1998 because they were exceeding the power limit imposed on WRC-spec cars. They were categorically cheating, and only got caught nearing the final round of what was a tumultuous season of the WRC (It had only 8 rounds in 1995). At that point in the championship the Toyota Celica's were leading both titles and were the reigning WRC champions.
.

toyota were punished for a very blatant piece of cheating. the FIA knew it was going on by ALL teams, announced at which round they would check it and toyota was the only team that didn't remove their trick.

they engineered (a beautifully engineered thing it was, too) a bypass of the air-inlet restrictor that sat perfectly in position at idle and low rpm, but sprung open at wider throttle openings. unfortunately for them, one of the spanners blipped the throttle while a scrutineer had his head under the bonnet and they caught them.

they got banned because it was a systematic cheat to bypass not only the restrictor, but an FIA rule - and arrogantly refused to remove it even when it knew it would be checked.

this is a very different story. when informed by investigators, McLaren's management instantly moved to suspend, then sack, the employee in question. i don't know what more they were supposed to do to make some people happy. Hand back the points?

there's a strange smell to all of this. Stepney books his holiday through the Ferrari agency at Ferrari's suggestion, then Ferrari says it has no idea where stepney is. they find a mystery powder at Stepney's house after he's gone overseas on a Ferrari-suggested holiday. They find confidential ferrari paperwork in his house.

I've spoken to a lot of ferrari employees about this and, from race mechanic to senior engineer, they're all fairly perplexed about it and all regard it as out of character and a management issue, not a team issue.

given that this thread links with the stepney thread, not a bad idea to put them together.

either way, i'd hate to see this overshadow an intriguing championship as it unfolds...

ICKE

4th July 2007, 13:02

Hehe, I wonder how many millions one could find from a certain bank account in Cayman Islands.

It is very unlikely that a professional would leak all this information just out of spite. Being disappointed might have been the trigger but I bet he secured his future as well.

Valve Bounce

4th July 2007, 13:06

McLaren has one, RBR has one, Williams has one and Toyota uses the Williams version because it couldn't make its own seamless shift work. honda and super aguri have it, too.

OK, seamless is out. Let's put our collective thinking caps on and try to figure out what the spying is all about.

ArrowsFA1

4th July 2007, 13:08

Just what the sport needs :dozey: :rolleyes:

Things seem to have gone pear-shaped for Stepney/Ferrari when he made clear his wish to leave (for Honda?). Was he prevented from leaving and so took "revenge" by passing on documents to Coughlan? What documents were they and could they have been any use to a team running a totally different car?

Who knows :eek: As time goes on more an more questions are being asked, and plenty of media speculation, but there is little that's known for sure yet. Until we know, there is certainly a cloud hanging over what is shaping up to be one of the best seasons we have seen for many years :down:

Valve Bounce

4th July 2007, 13:10

Gazzetta is reporting that the package contained the whole design for F2007.

This is going to be mega.

I guess they could stick voodoo pins in the design to put a voodoo hoodoo in the red cars. :p :

BDunnell

4th July 2007, 13:11

toyota were punished for a very blatant piece of cheating. the FIA knew it was going on by ALL teams, announced at which round they would check it and toyota was the only team that didn't remove their trick.

they engineered (a beautifully engineered thing it was, too) a bypass of the air-inlet restrictor that sat perfectly in position at idle and low rpm, but sprung open at wider throttle openings. unfortunately for them, one of the spanners blipped the throttle while a scrutineer had his head under the bonnet and they caught them.

they got banned because it was a systematic cheat to bypass not only the restrictor, but an FIA rule - and arrogantly refused to remove it even when it knew it would be checked.

Indeed. This is totally different to the espionage stories, because the Toyota WRC ban was down to a technical cheat.

Ranger

4th July 2007, 13:12

First of all Mickey T, yes I did know that the Toyota thing is very different, and that secenario won't be repeated here (sorry if I didn't make that clear) :) .

there's a strange smell to all of this. Stepney books his holiday through the Ferrari agency at Ferrari's suggestion, then Ferrari says it has no idea where stepney is. they find a mystery powder at Stepney's house after he's gone overseas on a Ferrari-suggested holiday. They find confidential ferrari paperwork in his house.

I agree. To me, this whole dilemma seems somewhat strange and futile. Albeit with a hell of a lot of money involved.

Ranger

4th July 2007, 13:20

Gazzetta is reporting that the package contained the whole design for F2007.

Oh dear. :dozey:

SGWilko

4th July 2007, 13:42

Ok.

What if Mike Coughlan DID receive paperwork from a Ferrari employee. Does this mean McLaren knew about it? The burden of proof here is did the team have knowledge, did they instigate contact with (presumably) Stepney, or was Mike working on his own? I am sure there is a whole load of spying going on, but as has already been mentioned, you really would have to be a collosal pr*ck to leave your evidence lying around in your own home - while you are away - Doh! That just don't smell right to me.

Suppose the implication of Nigel and Mike is fabricated, by someone planting evidence.......who knows?

Is the Mafia using the Ferrari team to run drugs, and using Stepney as a cover? Yeah, I know, a bit far fetched that one, but I could think of nothing else to link the white powder story. :D

And yes, this will distabilise both teams, and will run and run.

Stuart.

ioan

4th July 2007, 13:45

What documents were they and could they have been any use to a team running a totally different car?

Gazzetta is reporting that the package contained the whole design for F2007.

Very important documents, worth hundreds of millions!

All F1 cars are built using the same principles, and have the same construction.
The fact that they have different engines and aero packages doesn't mean that ideas coming from other cars can't be used to improve their design. And it all comes for free (well at least compared to the real development costs).

This looks like a huge mess! :s

ArrowsFA1

4th July 2007, 13:51

Gazzetta is reporting...
There are a lot of "reports", but few facts as yet.

MrPonx

4th July 2007, 13:58

cross out the 2 races in May for McLaren and this season will be even better :P

just to clarify, I hate Ferrari, and I love McLaren but I'm a huge Kimi fan so I'll support him.. and I hope this turns out in his favor somehow if actions are to be taken...

Ranger

4th July 2007, 14:01

There are a lot of "reports", but few facts as yet.

As stated elsewhere, 4 years passed before a resolution to the "2 Toyota employees obtaining Ferrari information" case came about. This is just the start, methinks.

What a nightmare.

Valve Bounce

4th July 2007, 14:02

Maybe the plans are not for this year's car but next year's car. Now that would be far, far more useful to an opposition team.

OK, I'm just maybeing, but what the heck, so is everybody else and this is fun.

Ranger

4th July 2007, 14:04

and I hope this turns out in his favor somehow if actions are to be taken...

I wouldn't wish any driver to benefit by any means other than racing on track, as much as I am a fan of Kimi

Valve Bounce

4th July 2007, 14:07

Yeah!! me too!!

MrPonx

4th July 2007, 14:11

I wouldn't wish any driver to benefit by any means other than racing on track, as much as I am a fan of Kimi

true, but the guy is jinxed like no other, he needs a bit of luck to back him up..

and does anyone have a link to a vid showing this incident?

The British engineer joined the team in the early 1990s and would go on to play an increasingly important role in Michael Schumacher’s championship success, despite being famously knocked over by the German during a botched pit stop at the 2000 Spanish Grand Prix.

tried youtube but no luck

Flat.tyres

4th July 2007, 14:33

There are a lot of "reports", but few facts as yet.

i agree but there does seem to be a strong indication that something is going on. all I know is there is a sense of shock in Woking and people seem a bit confused about it and nobody seems to know what the hell is actually going on.

what we do know is that a police search of a McLaren employees house has taken place. for this to have happened, there must be a credible suspicion of a specific crime having taken place.

that is not to say a crime has taken place but there is strong suspicion that a crime has taken place. The suspicion could be a sworn statement from a witness for example.

we also know that subsequent to discovering this allergation, McLaren have suspended an employee. again, that is not proof of guilt but a responsible action from an employer following an allergation of this nature.

after an allergation of this nature, the police and relevant agencies will investigate, look for evidence and decide whether there is any case to answer.

now, a few people seem to be jumping on the bandwagon and finding Mike and Nigel guilty and then dreaming up a Kangeroo court of what punishment should happen to McLaren (who as we know at this time appear to have been as unaware of any doings as te rest of us) but what if this is all not true? Ferrari have very publicly accused a senior figure in F1 of a criminal matter that has gone on to significantly affect their title contenders. as were all so quick to hypothercise, I ask what if this allergation is unfounded or perish the thought, made up.

i sincerely doubt it is but what would happen if this is a strategy?

ArrowsFA1

4th July 2007, 14:45

i agree but there does seem to be a strong indication that something is going on.
Absolutely, and the what & why of it all will no doubt emerge in the coming months. At the moment it seems that either Nigel Stepney has done a very good job of discrediting himself, or someone is doing it for him :dozey:

Valve Bounce

4th July 2007, 14:48

I have a suspicion that this will not be resolved for quite some time, ossibly even more than a year if the Italian judicial system is involved.

ArrowsFA1

4th July 2007, 14:51

"Following our statement of 3rd July 2007, McLaren has completed a thorough investigation and can confirm that no Ferrari intellectual property has been passed to any other members of the team or incorporated into its cars," said the team in a statement.
"McLaren has in the meanwhile openly disclosed these matters to the FIA and Ferrari and sought to satisfy any concerns that have arisen from this matter. In order to address some of the speculation McLaren has invited the FIA to conduct a full review of its cars to satisfy itself that the team has not benefited from any intellectual property of another competitor."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60479

MrPonx

4th July 2007, 14:55

Absolutely, and the what & why of it all will no doubt emerge in the coming months. At the moment it seems that either Nigel Stepney has done a very good job of discrediting himself, or someone is doing it for him :dozey:

well... he did say...

"I have confidence I'll be cleared by the legal process that is now taking place." he told The Times.

"It is just part of a dirty tricks campaign and everything is in the hands of my lawyer, so we'll wait and see what happens."

Daika

4th July 2007, 15:05

A season without controversy would be nice...
Ofcource everthing needs to be proven but i wonder how much millions those information is worth.

Flat.tyres

4th July 2007, 15:45

Absolutely, and the what & why of it all will no doubt emerge in the coming months. At the moment it seems that either Nigel Stepney has done a very good job of discrediting himself, or someone is doing it for him :dozey:

something just doesnt add up.

Mike has been round the block a few times and knows the game. he has the whole design team at McLaren at his disposal and is a consumate professional. The thought of him being mixed up in something like this is beyond comprehension. same with Nigel.

i cannot see any conceivable reason why the two of them would be sharing privilidged information. it just doesn't make any sense and the more I think about it, the stranger it looks (and smells) :confused:

There is definatly more to this than meets the eye.

ArrowsFA1

4th July 2007, 16:03

"With the full cooperation of both teams, the FIA has initiated an investigation into matters involving Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro and Vodafone McLaren Mercedes," said the governing body in a statement.
"The remit of this investigation will focus solely on the requirements of the International Sporting Code and the Formula One Regulations."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60481

4th July 2007, 16:59

There are a lot of "reports", but few facts as yet.

I can give you one sure-fire fact............

Stepney & Coughlan would be well advised never to go to Italy ever again.

Flat.tyres

4th July 2007, 17:15

just a thought.

i've never had the pleasure of meeting Mike or Nigel before but obviously they used to work together and I assume are still friends.

would it not be beyond the bounds of possibility that they communicate professionally on issues that they might be working on? I mean, we do it all the time if we have a problem. you'll get on the blower to an old workmate and pick his brains about something and a couple of weeks later, he'll do the same.

now, obviously this wouldn't involve releasing privilidged information but i would imagine these two might quite readily bounce ideas off each other including providing some examples.

i apprecfiate this is pure guesswork but its about the only credible reason I can find to explain away any of this other than it being criminal espionage or a fit up.

Big Ben

4th July 2007, 17:59

I can´t help noticing that the Ferrari team is the only one to benefit from this story... Their main rival loses an important man in the middle of the season when the development for the next car begins... everybody will question McLaren´s performance for the last 4 races (as if thier was a magic trick that makes any f1 car faster over night)... they´ve also made threats about further legal actions if things don´t go their way (to me that sounds like some kind of blackmail)

It´s hard not to hate this team!

ICKE

4th July 2007, 18:44

I was waiting how long it would take before this situation would be turned against Ferrari by clueless individuals.

Carry on.

Big Ben

4th July 2007, 19:00

I was waiting how long it would take before this situation would be turned against Ferrari by clueless individuals.

Carry on.

I can´t answer to that. I´ve already been penalized 3 points... but you are the one who thinks a team should be penalized and after that investigated, right? I don´t have time to check this but I believe it´s you! I know more about law than you about f1 I´d say so far....

ioan

4th July 2007, 19:06

I was waiting how long it would take before this situation would be turned against Ferrari by clueless individuals.

Carry on.

As long as we have eu you won't have to wait for too long! ;)
And he's not the only one who thinks that Ferrari=devil and McLaren=angels. :D

F1boat

4th July 2007, 20:36

Big Ben

4th July 2007, 22:14

Yes. I find not to hate McLaren, the team, who claims fair play, but who has chief manager, who steals ideas from Ferrari and many drivers - Prost, Coulthard, Montoya and now Alonso, who say that were mistreated in the team.
But, if it is McLaren, it is OK...

You mean Alain Prost.. the one who battled with his team-mate (Senna) for the championship... I understand what you mean. It wasn't as spectacular as seeing MS fighting really hard against RB. :laugh: ... If you had thought it better you would have invented something better...

So far I've heard they bought ideas from Ferrari :laugh:

You and your friend ICHY don't have time to wait for any verdict... You've made up you mind years ago. :laugh:

Big Ben

4th July 2007, 22:16

As long as we have eu you won't have to wait for too long! ;)
And he's not the only one who thinks that Ferrari=devil and McLaren=angels. :D

If they are not the devil they are very good friends with him (aka Max Mosley)

Ian McC

4th July 2007, 22:17

Things seem to have gone pear-shaped for Stepney/Ferrari when he made clear his wish to leave (for Honda?). Was he prevented from leaving and so took "revenge" by passing on documents to Coughlan? What documents were they and could they have been any use to a team running a totally different car?

Could someone of his experience honestly be that stupid? Revenge seems like a poor motive to me.

ioan

4th July 2007, 22:24

You and your friend ICHY don't have time to wait for any verdict... You've made up you mind years ago. :laugh:

I think his/her nick is ICKE! :!:

Big Ben

4th July 2007, 23:00

I think his/her nick is ICKE! :!:

my mistake

Hondo

4th July 2007, 23:17

Perhaps any technical information that has been passed hasn't been for another team to use on it's own cars as much as it is to formulate a protest to the FIA about something Ferrari is doing with it's cars.

donKey jote

4th July 2007, 23:25

So what is McLaren's "crime" supposed to be then, merely to have received "information" and not gone public about it ?
Naughty boys... ban them I say :dozey:

racing59

4th July 2007, 23:53

From an unbiassed point of view (my favourite team is my own!)

Talk of McLaren's upturn in form since April vs Ferrari's fall, and you all forget the early races and the discussion of the "moving floors" which Ferrari has to fix, and McLaren did not suffer with.

Stepney is being stitched up for being p'd off at not being allowed to do a Brawn or Byrne (sabbatical), and what credit for the man who was part of the team that put the Scuderia back on top after many years as a midfield team.

From my own experience of working in the sport of F1, you learn very quickly that there are always plenty of people ready to stab you in the back, and blame you for everything and anything, if it can get "them" out of trouble (until they eventually get found out!).

And what information, of use, could pass from Ferrari to McLaren? As has been said, there is little or no common design areas on any of the cars, except (ahem) the RB and the STR, or the SA07 and the RA07.... And setup information is pointless as different chassis will react totally different to different setups.

In my own racing, there are people who run stiffer spring/lower tyre pressure setups and get a good feel, to those who run soft springs/higher tyre pressures. More or less crossweight/wedge, etc.. The feel for the car is in the driver's confidence.

This whole media driven "trial" is a bit like a medieval witch-hunt with "Trial by ordeal" where they tie rocks to you, throw you in the river. If you drown, then you are innocent, and absolved of any wrongdoing. If you float, you must be a witch and are burned at the stake!

The losers, will be F1 in general as the fans get p'd off with the politics again.

While F1 in the UK is riding high on Lewis-mania, this sort of "scandal" could turn them back off the sport again and back to "Big Brother on Grass" (premier league football).

f1rocks

5th July 2007, 00:57

Quote:
"Following our statement of 3rd July 2007, McLaren has completed a thorough investigation and can confirm that no Ferrari intellectual property has been passed to any other members of the team or incorporated into its cars," said the team in a statement.
"McLaren has in the meanwhile openly disclosed these matters to the FIA and Ferrari and sought to satisfy any concerns that have arisen from this matter. In order to address some of the speculation McLaren has invited the FIA to conduct a full review of its cars to satisfy itself that the team has not benefited from any intellectual property of another competitor."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60479

That seems quite fishy to me. So Mclaren have completed this complete investigation in just 1 day ??? Me thinks they are in deep trouble....Especially if Mike starts to spill the beans in a civil court.....

Valve Bounce

5th July 2007, 01:00

If plans were found, what good are these to another team? unless they are plans of next year's car?

f1rocks

5th July 2007, 01:28

If plans were found, what good are these to another team? unless they are plans of next year's car?

Does that really matter. The team is still guilty if this helped.....

Also isnt it odd that A Macca chief designer get's Ferrari data from Stepney and he just keeps it as a souvenir!??

Wake up guys....This is gonna tarnish Mclaren for good...And I am not a Ferrari fan (only MS fan). I want Hamilton to win the WDC this year...

f1rocks

5th July 2007, 02:08

f1rocks

5th July 2007, 02:13

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formu...lomclaren.shtml

The 500 page document received by the Mclaren employee contained the following information:

The 500 pages contain:

- construction drawings and data of the F2007;
- details of the internal structures and workflows in Maranello;
- information on the main engineers;
- data on car setups;
- race strategies;
- preparation of the cars;
- development plans for the future;
- quality control standards;
- testing results.

In other words, they got everything...If they really have all of that, it is not believable that only one McLaren person is involved. A car designer would not really benefit from race strategy, test results, etc. Of couse, they were careful to insulate other higher-ups. However, if money changed hands, it may be possible to prove wider participation at McLaren.

I just cannot believe this. I hope the police get to the bottom of all this soon.

Valve Bounce

5th July 2007, 06:50

Does that really matter. The team is still guilty if this helped.....

Also isnt it odd that A Macca chief designer get's Ferrari data from Stepney and he just keeps it as a souvenir!??

Wake up guys....This is gonna tarnish Mclaren for good...And I am not a Ferrari fan (only MS fan). I want Hamilton to win the WDC this year...

Well, I feel sorry for you that you cannot discuss this topic on a rational ubiased manner. How do you know that the McLaren person used the plans to advantage the McLaren cars? For your information, the FIA are looking into it right now.

And if you want to push the point that you are a fan of SchM and not Ferrari, we can open one helluva can of worms in that direction, so it's better for you to unlax a little. We don't want another SchM bash thread here - we don't need it anymore; he has retired, so let it go.

Valve Bounce

5th July 2007, 06:51

f1rocks

5th July 2007, 07:17

By the way, your link doesn't work.

Here you go again. Its in Italian but I am sure by tommorrow we will see a lot more in English..

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formula1/Primo_Piano/2007/07_Luglio/03/giallomclaren.shtml

I

f1rocks

5th July 2007, 07:25

Well, I feel sorry for you that you cannot discuss this topic on a rational ubiased manner. How do you know that the McLaren person used the plans to advantage the McLaren cars?

.
And I feel sorry for you as well because you have no beef in your arguments. All you can do is to get personal. We have a forum and that is why we discuss things.

And do you have an answer to why Mike needed those documents from Nigel. Why have Mclaren suspended their Chief Designer ??? Try debating issues instead of resorting to personal attacks...

For your information, the FIA are looking into it right now.

.
The same way they looked at Mclaren team orders at Monaco. Hopefully this time we have the civil courts as well to decide who was guilty...

And if you want to push the point that you are a fan of SchM and not Ferrari, we can open one helluva can of worms in that direction, so it's better for you to unlax a little. We don't want another SchM bash thread here - we don't need it anymore; he has retired, so let it go.

I am posting my facts stating that I am no longer biased towards Ferrari as MS has retired. But as always you like to twist things and get personal .. I am a Lewis fan and want him to be WDC this year. But I still want Mclaren to lose their WCC points if proven guilty....

Valve Bounce

5th July 2007, 07:48

And I feel sorry for you as well because you have no beef in your arguments. All you can do is to get personal. We have a forum and that is why we discuss things.

And do you have an answer to why Mike needed those documents from Nigel. Why have Mclaren suspended their Chief Designer ??? Try debating issues instead of resorting to personal attacks...

The same way they looked at Mclaren team orders at Monaco. Hopefully this time we have the civil courts as well to decide who was guilty...

I am posting my facts stating that I am no longer biased towards Ferrari as MS has retired. But as always you like to twist things and get personal .. I am a Lewis fan and want him to be WDC this year. But I still want Mclaren to lose their WCC points if proven guilty....

I am very sorry if my post turned out to be attacking you - that is far from my intention; my sincerest apologies :(

I can only reiterate that both guys might be wanting to go to a different team next year and that would benefit them greatly for next year.

Glad to see you are now a Lewis Hamilton fan - I think he's a great addition to F1.

ArrowsFA1

5th July 2007, 09:32

Also isnt it odd that A Macca chief designer get's Ferrari data from Stepney and he just keeps it as a souvenir!??
Yes, very odd. The whole situation is very odd. For all anyone knows Coughlan may have been as surprised as anyone that this information landed on his doorstep.

Wake up guys....This is gonna tarnish Mclaren for good...
There is nothing to suggest that McLaren, as a team, either initiated contacted with Nigel Stepney, or approached him in any way. For whatever reasons, not yet fully explained, Stepney appears to have sent documents to Coughlan who is someone he has worked with in the past someone he presumably trusts.

This whole issue appears to have begun with Stepney's wish to leave Ferrari following the break-up of the "dream team". That's the starting point for all of this.

Flat.tyres

5th July 2007, 09:47

MrPonx

5th July 2007, 11:38

I lost interest in this story...

Bernie insists that drivers won`t lose points over Stepneygate

Bernie Ecclestone has dismissed claims that Lewis Hamilton could be deducted points as a result of the Stepneygate crisis which threatens to derail the 2007 season.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2470935,00.html

Valve Bounce

5th July 2007, 11:40

good points all. if you were going to build a ferrari from scratch, then the plans would have some benefit but otherwise, very little.

I would still urge everyone to not jump to conclusions in this matter. there is something going on but it's as clear as concrete what that "something" is at this time. best wait and see.
Very good point! :up:

Flat.tyres

5th July 2007, 12:16

I lost interest in this story...

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2470935,00.html

slightly misleading.

Bernie doesn't have the power to decide who loses points but just gives his opinion that it would be unfair if they did. he also says that there would have to be evidence that McLaren were involved to take any action.

you cant just penalise a team if an employee does something without their knowledge in an unofficial capacity. as Bernie says, Ron and McLaren have been totally transparent in this matter and completely above board. there has been no suggestion of closing ranks and no suggestion that McLaren have done anything wrong. quite the contarary.

but f**k it. Its McLaren so lets just shoot them anyway. :rolleyes:

jas123f1

5th July 2007, 12:35

Hondo

5th July 2007, 12:51

Possibly these documents were the cause of the "moving floor" protest earlier in the season.

SGWilko

5th July 2007, 13:05

How convenient that the whole document is now in the oublic gaze. If it was that sensitive, Ferrari would not allow the press to print it, now would they. Or, am I jumping to conclusions here, it is merely a reference to what was in that dossier.

Is their some gain to the team by allowing this in the public domain. The more this story runs, the more this smacks of a fit up.

I think this is a case for Columbo/Miss Marple/Judge John Deed/Ironside, or, we could even put 007, our best man on the case....... :D

Flat.tyres

5th July 2007, 13:05

If that is true FIA hasn't so much to deliberate - McLaren must loos their points - at least after that they got this info about Ferrari - and BIG boot - it must also be a question to pay about millions to Ferrari. It really doesn't help to say "we haven't used the information in our cars".. :down:

Its very disappointing .. but sometimes it looks like that - when the big money moves..

let me guess.... Ferrari fan?

must be psychic :p :

can you please enlighten us with your breathtaking perception of this case just what the company has done wrong? for Christs sake, we dont even know if anyones done anything wrong and what it is yet so implicating McLaren in this is a bit far fetched unless you have some knowledge that were not privvy to.

ArrowsFA1

5th July 2007, 13:09

If they really have all of that, it is not believable that only one McLaren person is involved. A car designer would not really benefit from race strategy, test results, etc. Of couse, they were careful to insulate other higher-ups. However, if money changed hands, it may be possible to prove wider participation at McLaren.

If that is true FIA hasn't so much to deliberate - McLaren must loos their points....
If...if...if...that is the contents of the document...you can speculate and make as many assumptions as you like, but without a basis in fact any assumption is on thin ground.

Deciding on a penalty for one party in all of this is premature at best.

leopard

5th July 2007, 13:31

They can actually go with their own data which was proven that they can make a fastest ever F1 car before. They need only to make more perfection on cut backs of any achievement with their current resource.

This might tarnish credibility of McLaren, but as usual such any accusation on dirty strategy as team orders or anything will wind up sooner or later, that's the interesting part of F1

pino

5th July 2007, 13:39

According to ital channel Studio Sport (Italia1) there is another McLaren employer involved in this story. Hopefully we will know more in the next hours, not that I am excited about it anyway :s

Valve Bounce

5th July 2007, 13:53

ioan

5th July 2007, 13:59

According to ital channel Studio Sport (Italia1) there is another McLaren employer involved in this story. Hopefully we will know more in the next hours, not that I am excited about it anyway :s

Thanks pino. Hopefully this will shut up a bit the McLaren fans who are painting Ferrari as the bad ones already.

[quote="f1rocks"]http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formu...lomclaren.shtml

The 500 page document received by the Mclaren employee contained the following information:

The 500 pages contain:

- construction drawings and data of the F2007]

Not a bad work there Mr. Stepney!
Let's hope that justice will be done. Maybe we will get another new team in F1 next season! :D ;)

ArrowsFA1

5th July 2007, 14:46

Ferrari have revealed that they were tipped off about McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan possibly having Ferrari documents by someone outside of Formula One.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60502

Edit: I wonder if it was Ross Brawn :D :laugh:

Flat.tyres

5th July 2007, 14:47

Thanks pino. Hopefully this will shut up a bit the McLaren fans who are painting Ferrari as the bad ones already.

when someone posts something like this, I understand its customary to say

Link Please

Not a bad work there Mr. Stepney!
Let's hope that justice will be done. Maybe we will get another new team in F1 next season! :D ;)

I think we all want justice to be done correctly in this matter. lets wait and see what the FIA say.

if McLaren are adjudged to have acted improperly, I will accept whatever punishment they deserve.

if McLaren have been adjudged not to have behaved correctly, you will claim the FIA is in leage with Ron Denis ;)

Valve Bounce

5th July 2007, 15:09

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60502

Edit: I wonder if it was Ross Brawn :D :laugh:

No!! it was OJ. He's still trying to convince everyone that he is innocent.

Flat.tyres

5th July 2007, 15:14

if McLaren have been adjudged not to have behaved correctly, you will claim the FIA is in leage with Ron Denis ;)

ummm, well, you know what I mean ;) if they havent been naughty boys :D

jas123f1

5th July 2007, 15:17

let me guess.... Ferrari fan?

must be psychic :p :

can you please enlighten us with your breathtaking perception of this case just what the company has done wrong? for Christs sake, we dont even know if anyones done anything wrong and what it is yet so implicating McLaren in this is a bit far fetched unless you have some knowledge that were not privvy to.

let me guess.... you are not a Ferrari fan? :D

What is a company in your mind? In my mind a company it's the leading personal in different functions in a company and things like that we are discussion are even more serious if a person who has a leading position in a company is involved.
But as i said IF it's true.. it's serious .. no question about that .. but let's hope it's not as newspapers are mentioning.

ioan

5th July 2007, 15:18

I think we all want justice to be done correctly in this matter. lets wait and see what the FIA say.

if McLaren are adjudged to have acted improperly, I will accept whatever punishment they deserve.

if McLaren have been adjudged not to have behaved correctly, you will claim the FIA is in leage with Ron Denis ;)

To the hell with the FIA, they will try to protect themselves first, bunch of pussies. Let's see what will be decided in the court, in England and in Italy!

ioan

5th July 2007, 15:19

let me guess.... you are not a Ferrari fan? :D

No, he's a McLaren fan, quite obviously! :D

Valve Bounce

5th July 2007, 15:27

To the hell with the FIA, they will try to protect themselves first, bunch of pussies. Let's see what will be decided in the court, in England and in Italy!

Another view of things: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=31995

First of all, my opinion is that Bernie cannot dictate what the outcome, if any, will be. He can give his opinion, but that's about it.

But ioan raises a very interesting point here: the courts in both Italy and the UK could have a determination of any punishment; however, the courts cannot penalise teams regarding points, wins etc. They can only fine persons/teams and/or chuck persons in jail.

It will be the FIA which will decide penalties, if any, to teams in F1 and/or to their drivers.

Flat.tyres

5th July 2007, 15:36

let me guess.... you are not a Ferrari fan? :D

not a Ferrari fan but not against them either. def dont dislike them.

What is a company in your mind? In my mind a company it's the leading personal in different functions in a company and things like that we are discussion are even more serious if a person who has a leading position in a company is involved.
But as i said IF it's true.. it's serious .. no question about that .. but let's hope it's not as newspapers are mentioning.

you are quite right that senior people in a company carry an implied responsibility just because of the gravitas of their position but not automatic association. for example, if Frank williams decided to shoot ron then should Williams be disqualified because of one mans actions independant of the team?

IF these allergations prove to have substance, and IF McLaren are implicated, then the FIA HAVE to take some action against the team I think. But, if Mike was acting independantly, then I think the buck stops with him if the teams done nothing wrong.

jas123f1

5th July 2007, 15:36

If...if...if...that is the contents of the document...you can speculate and make as many assumptions as you like, but without a basis in fact any assumption is on thin ground.

Deciding on a penalty for one party in all of this is premature at best.

Sure, it's a premature and only my opinion of the doc - and i hope there is exaggerations as usually when newspapers are going on.. but it looks serious and that's the reason why newspapers are writing of it in the whole world..

:)

Valve Bounce

5th July 2007, 15:41

for example, if Frank williams decided to shoot ron then should Williams be disqualified because of one mans actions independant of the team?

.

No!! he would definitely get a second knighthood, and be addressed as Sir Frank Williams, Sir!!

Flat.tyres

5th July 2007, 15:45

No!! he would definitely get a second knighthood, and be addressed as Sir Frank Williams, Sir!!

:laugh:

actually, they get on OK so perhaps they gang up on Flav instead.

"you hold him down ronnie boy and I'll run him over" :D

Valve Bounce

5th July 2007, 15:46

:laugh:

actually, they get on OK so perhaps they gang up on Flav instead.

"you hold him down ronnie boy and I'll run him over" :D

:D :D :rotflmao:

cannonman

5th July 2007, 15:59

I thought there would be more people on this board who would be less than surprised by something like this. Espionage and treachery, I imagine, goes on up and down the pit lane. 'Ol Nige slipped up pretty bad somewhere, but I'll bet my balls that there's more than a few other engineers doing similar sorts of things out there, in F1 and every other racing series.

So should Nige's 'behaviour' (to use ferrari's term) be considered morally reprehensable? Sure, and he should get his due punishment, but don't pretend like this tarnishes the World Championship or that McLaren's cars should be impounded because this kind of activity is nothing new.

Big Ben

5th July 2007, 16:00

OMG... Now I understand everything (it's a shame they've changed the title of the thread-It sounded so witty)

I can imagine now some day Coughlan coming to a meeting saying: well guys, I did my best but I've ran out of ideas but I've had a last one that will save us. I've bought the plans for a ferrari... we will be able to build a ferrari now! imagine a silver ferrari...My contact man promised me that for the right price he ll get us a car... The whole team: Yoohoo! and RD: well done mate... you shall get a raise...

f1rocks

5th July 2007, 16:01

f1rocks

5th July 2007, 16:02

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60502

Edit: I wonder if it was Ross Brawn :D :laugh:

It was Schumy the detective... :D

jas123f1

5th July 2007, 16:03

you are quite right that senior people in a company carry an implied responsibility just because of the gravitas of their position but not automatic association. for example, if Frank williams decided to shoot ron then should Williams be disqualified because of one mans actions independant of the team?

It depends, if (e.g.) they were fighting about "ones" girlfriend, it's should probably be a legal proceedings of private nature afterwards, but if the reason for shooting were to get secret company information - then the company should be involved also afterwards. :)

f1rocks

5th July 2007, 16:04

To the hell with the FIA, they will try to protect themselves first, bunch of pussies. Let's see what will be decided in the court, in England and in Italy!

Exactly my thoughts. FIA are nothing but a joke. I have more hopes with the courts.

f1rocks

5th July 2007, 16:11

But, if Mike was acting independantly, then I think the buck stops with him if the teams done nothing wrong.

What would Mike gain by acting independently. This is common sense really that more people are involved.

Secondly even if he acted independently the team could still have gained from this information. He did have influence over the development of the car as he is the chief designer..

ArrowsFA1

5th July 2007, 16:12

Espionage and treachery, I imagine, goes on up and down the pit lane...this kind of activity is nothing new.
It typifies the way F1 is today. Teams forcefully protect their 'secrets', shut themselves away in motorhomes, issue bland press releases that give nothing away, and do their utmost to discover what other teams are up to.

Time was when the paddock was a grass field where everyone worked on their cars together, talked, exchanged ideas, helped each other out with parts if needed, travelled to and from the races together, and a good idea was openly discussed and seen.

How times change :dozey:

f1rocks

5th July 2007, 16:15

I am very sorry if my post turned out to be attacking you - that is far from my intention; my sincerest apologies :(

No worries mate...Also I was just trying to make a point on MS and Lewis.. Thats all.

jas123f1

5th July 2007, 17:21

It typifies the way F1 is today. Teams forcefully protect their 'secrets', shut themselves away in motorhomes, issue bland press releases that give nothing away, and do their utmost to discover what other teams are up to.

Time was when the paddock was a grass field where everyone worked on their cars together, talked, exchanged ideas, helped each other out with parts if needed, travelled to and from the races together, and a good idea was openly discussed and seen.

How times change :dozey:

Yes – and everything because of money – big business and money. I heard some years a go that there are 2,4 milliard (2 400 000 000) spectators world wide every year in F1 if you counted every PG and TV and so on… it’s great many.. :)

MrPonx

5th July 2007, 18:41

Can Ferrari take the championship thing to court if FiA decides no punishments towards McLaren?

janneppi

5th July 2007, 19:00

Can Ferrari take the championship thing to court if FiA decides no punishments towards McLaren?
They'd have a tough time trying to prove McLaren bosses knew or took advantage of these alledged files.
old saying about Laughing out of court comes to mind. :)

ICKE

5th July 2007, 19:30

If a high employee in Nokia, one who sits with the board of directors, is implicated and sensitive material belonging to the competition is found from his home, I doubt it would be a "laughing matter" in the court like janneppi declared.

If one of the stewards goes mental during the race and starts shooting at cars in the parking lot and eventually surrenders to the police, I doubt the race organizer would be let off with a :

"Hey we didnt gain anything from this and the guy is buried so lets just continue our lives. "

"What...you *gasp* expect us to pay for the damage?"

"Where is the justice!!!!"

janneppi

5th July 2007, 19:49

If a high employee in Nokia, one who sits with the board of directors, is implicated and sensitive material belonging to the competition is found from his home, I doubt it would be a "laughing matter" in the court like janneppi declared.

So if i

[quote:37cc8pxr]
If one of the stewards goes mental during the race and starts shooting at cars in the parking lot and eventually surrenders to the police, I doubt the race organizer would be let off with a :

"Hey we didnt gain anything from this and the guy is buried so lets just continue our lives. "

"What...you *gasp* expect us to pay for the damage?"

"Where is the justice!!!!"[/quote:37cc8pxr]
So you'd have Silvestone officials to jailed if one of their emplyees shoots cars in the parking lot? ;)

ojciec dyrektor

5th July 2007, 20:45

The 500 pages contain:

- construction drawings and data of the F2007;
- details of the internal structures and workflows in Maranello;
- information on the main engineers;
- data on car setups;
- race strategies;
- preparation of the cars;
- development plans for the future;
- quality control standards;
- testing results.

IF it's true...

I've got questions.
Do You think that Ferrari or any other team, don't have such informations about their rivals?
Do You think mechanics and engineers aren't talking about above with each other?
Do You think teams are not passing fake informations to the others?
Do You think teams don't have narks in other teams?

MrPonx

5th July 2007, 22:18

IF it's true...

I've got questions.
Do You think that Ferrari or any other team, don't have such informations about their rivals?
Do You think mechanics and engineers aren't talking about above with each other?
Do You think teams are not passing fake informations to the others?
Do You think teams don't have narks in other teams?

1. yes, because it's definitely not THAT detailed!!!! you're talking 500 pages here
2. talk? this is some serious **** here, its their jobs on the line!!!
3. that's kinda childish if it was done this way, they surely try to hide stuff but not pass fake information in THIS way to other teams.
4. they could, but what's your point? now their caught!

I don't see why people are trying to prove that this is normal!! ok, I agree that rivals try to get info from other teams but once they're caught with a proof then it's all over, and they have to get punished

again.. I'm not a Ferrari fan, I'm actually a McLaren fan and I'm from Bahrain (which owns 35% of the team), but still... what's wrong is wrong

ioan

5th July 2007, 22:34

They'd have a tough time trying to prove McLaren bosses knew or took advantage of these alledged files.
old saying about Laughing out of court comes to mind. :)

Well the top designer was the one getting the files, so half of it, at least, is already proved.

Big Ben

5th July 2007, 23:40

Well the top designer was the one getting the files, so half of it, at least, is already proved.

half proved - another innovative law concept

Ian McC

5th July 2007, 23:52

Well the top designer was the one getting the files, so half of it, at least, is already proved.

Allegedly! :p :

Valve Bounce

6th July 2007, 01:24

Well the top designer was the one getting the files, so half of it, at least, is already proved.

This is even more fishy than it smells. The top designer of one team gets lotsa stuff from the top guy in Ferrari who wants to leave. Could it be that the two want to get together in another team for next year and use the designs they have alledgedly obtained for the new team's car next year?
That's what I think.

kalasend

6th July 2007, 01:38

Valve Bounce

6th July 2007, 01:49

That would be the best defense McLaren could potentially use. Otherwise, I can't imagine the team could walk away by claiming that the espionage act is out of a top designer's personal interest.

Well, it IS out of Ferrari's top guy's interest (allegedly). Ferrari's latest statement yesterday only stated that another guy in McLaren MIGHT be in possession of said plans and the English police, so far, have not been involved.

The way I see it, the information would be of far greater use to someone designing next year's new car than trying to alter this year's design.

Valve Bounce

6th July 2007, 02:05

Here's a summary of the whole saga to date in autosport for anyone who has not fully followed this case from the start.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60467

janneppi

6th July 2007, 07:56

Well the top designer was the one getting the files, so half of it, at least, is already proved.

MacLaren has three chief designers, one is responsible for the current car, one is responsible for the next year's car, Mike Coughlan isn't either of them, apparently he's responsible for external team relationships. ;)

wmcot

6th July 2007, 08:12

good points all. if you were going to build a ferrari from scratch, then the plans would have some benefit but otherwise, very little.

Unless you were trying to setup the suspension to run on Bridgestone tires and could get the info from the team with the most data on Bridgestone! The effects could be immediate (or at least very quick.)

Please be aware that I am only saying "IF" and I have no facts to back anything up. Still there is much strangeness going around these two teams. If Stepney sent the documents to Coughlan, why would Coughlan just keep them laying around and either not use any of the data or not report the whole matter to the authorities? Does anyone really suppose that when Coughlan got the documents he would only use them himself and nobody else in the team would be aware?

I also have mixed feelings on the driver situation IF this should be found to be a case of espionage and benefit for McLaren. True, a driver just drives the car, but suppose the car had an unfair advantage (for example, BAR's extra fuel tank/ballast.) Does that driver deserve the championship points he has won in an illegal car? If this was the case, everyone would be massively breaking the rules to get their drivers points while sacrificing constructor's points!

This case is actually two cases - the legal case carried out by police and lawyers, and the sporting case carried out by FIA investigators. It will be interesting to see how these two come out. They may be totally opposite in their findings.

I did find it interesting that Bernie stated that no matter the results, it won't affect Hamilton's championship chances. What about Alonso's??? Or has Bernie already pre-arranged things?

Things are certainly getting curioser and curioser as Lewis Carrol would say...

janneppi

6th July 2007, 08:22

The way I see it, the information would be of far greater use to someone designing next year's new car than trying to alter this year's design.
How far are Spyker with building their car? :)

ioan

6th July 2007, 08:58

MacLaren has three chief designers, one is responsible for the current car, one is responsible for the next year's car, Mike Coughlan isn't either of them, apparently he's responsible for external team relationships. ;)

So he was just doing his job within the team, establishing an external relationship with a Ferrari employee in order to get some external valuable data! ;) :p :

ioan

6th July 2007, 09:00

Next year will. allegedly, be the restart of the customer chassis F1, so why not just buy a ready chassis? Why risk to be caught and out of F1 foe good?!

Flat.tyres

6th July 2007, 10:52

This is even more fishy than it smells. The top designer of one team gets lotsa stuff from the top guy in Ferrari who wants to leave. Could it be that the two want to get together in another team for next year and use the designs they have alledgedly obtained for the new team's car next year?
That's what I think.

this thought went through my mind when Mike was implicated.

a team starting with HO, ending in DA and with a N in the name may be looking to establish a strong design team with proven track record. a team, we should bear in mind, with a proven ferrari driver and the oft heralded Button only need a car capable of challenging to potentially upset many an apple cart.

the kudos of being the men that quit the best 2 teams to turn around the failing Honda and achieve success would put them in the most coverted position in their field.

ive got a funny feeling in my trouser department that this is the most logical reason behind this debarcle. however, it must be said that this is speculation in its purest form and just another possible angle to consider. we all still wait for that most elusive of prizes, PROOF!!

TMorel

6th July 2007, 13:39

How far are Spyker with building their car? :)

I joked at the beginning that it wouldn't surprise me if someone from a lower performing team was framing rival key individuals to ruin their careers and then offer them a lifeline at their team.

Then ITV interviewed the boss of Spyker who was gushing with praise for Nigel and I joked again that there was my proof and soon we'd have Schumi turning up with the plans of next years McLaren.

mebbe I wasn't that far from the mark *eek*

ArrowsFA1

6th July 2007, 14:09

1st Feb 2007 - Unhappy Stepney wants a sabbatical (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/56539)

23rd Feb 2007 - Stepney moves in Ferrari reshuffle (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/56889)

Robinho

6th July 2007, 19:26

this thought went through my mind when Mike was implicated.

a team starting with HO, ending in DA and with a N in the name may be looking to establish a strong design team with proven track record. a team, we should bear in mind, with a proven ferrari driver and the oft heralded Button only need a car capable of challenging to potentially upset many an apple cart.

the kudos of being the men that quit the best 2 teams to turn around the failing Honda and achieve success would put them in the most coverted position in their field.

ive got a funny feeling in my trouser department that this is the most logical reason behind this debarcle. however, it must be said that this is speculation in its purest form and just another possible angle to consider. we all still wait for that most elusive of prizes, PROOF!!

that stirring is proving quite prophetic - see http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39942

stating that Honda's Nick Fry was approached by Nigel Stepney looking for a job, and brought with him none other than Mike Coughlan...the thick plottens, and suddenly the whole thing makes sense.

whether they actual stole Ferrari plans or is this is a ruse to prevent them moving and taking the secrets they have in their heads remains to be seen, but it seems to make a lot more sense that Stepney and Coughlan planned to high tail it to Honda with a folder full of successful information to create a hybrid of the Ferrari and McLaren.

i hope that this is only partly true, and the information they planned to take was quite legal, but the plan to move and command a large price for their services is the story - it may be that their greed will be there downfall as the teams unite against them

Big Ben

6th July 2007, 19:35

And JT knew about this but didn´t find it important to share the news with world and clear a bit the doubts that fell unfairly upon McLaren...

klm-607

6th July 2007, 19:54

F1: Honda Boss Met with Stepney, Coughlan
Written by: Adam Cooper, RACER Magazine
Northamptonshire, UK – 7/6/2007

Nick Fry was approached by Stepney and Coughlan last month, the team confirmed.

Honda has confirmed that team boss Nick Fry met with Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlan in June to discuss possible job opportunities.

Over the last 24 hours it has become clear that McLaren was not the intended recipient of any knowledge that Stepney was able to hand over to Coughlan, but in fact the pair were working together with the intention of taking a “dream team” technical and management package to Honda. It’s thought that this group would have included other people from the paddock.

It’s believed that Stepney handed Coughlan a package of Ferrari documentation when they met in a Barcelona restaurant on April 28. It was this package that was found when Coughlan’s home was raided earlier this week. This information was presumably to be used to help the Stepney/Coughlan team present a more effective case in their discussions with Honda.

Honda’s statement said that “earlier this year Nigel Stepney, formerly of Scuderia Ferrari, requested a meeting with Nick Fry and brought with him Mike Coughlan of McLaren, with a view to investigating job opportunities within the Honda Racing F1 team. Honda would like to stress that at no point during the meeting was any confidential information offered or received. Nick Fry informed Jean Todt and Ron Dennis of the meeting and has offered to provide any information required by Ferrari and McLaren.”

In fact Dennis and Todt were only informed after the scandal broke, and the three team bosses had a meeting this morning to discuss the situation.

Honda did not say whether prior to this week’s scandal breaking Stepney and Coughlan were still in line for a possible future with the team.

However, any chances of that happening must have already been reduced after June 21 when news that Stepney was under investigation in relation to a question of sabotage at Ferrari.

Big Ben

6th July 2007, 20:59

And JT knew about this but didn´t find it important to share the news with world and clear a bit the doubts that fell unfairly upon McLaren...

.... and I think it was MrPonx, who loves McLaren, that said something about Ferrari officials declaring they can see a link between McLaren´s good form and the stolen documents...

... Fry also said he announced JT immediately about his meeting with Stepney and Coughlam... and what news do we have after that... Of course... that they are suspecting another McLaren employee... nothing about Fry

ioan

6th July 2007, 21:18

.... and I think it was MrPonx, who loves McLaren, that said something about Ferrari officials declaring they can see a link between McLaren´s good form and the stolen documents...

... Fry also said he announced JT immediately about his meeting with Stepney and Coughlam... and what news do we have after that... Of course... that they are suspecting another McLaren employee... nothing about Fry

Are you that McLaren employee??? :p :

Valve Bounce

6th July 2007, 22:29

f1rocks

6th July 2007, 23:27

I should have been a criminal lawyer - my mind works one step ahead of these guys.

Actually when you said this earlier I wasnt sure if that is the case. But now it seems like what you stated earlier might very well be the case. I gotta give you that...Lets wait and see what unfolds the next 2 days after the GP.

I think they want the weekend to go on as normal and after that the real fireworks will commence...We fans are entitled to know the truth whatever be the case..

Big Ben

6th July 2007, 23:27

Are you that McLaren employee??? :p :

Can´t say I am but I´ve unveiled my identity on another thread... I´m Michael Schumacher.

Valve Bounce

7th July 2007, 02:44

Actually when you said this earlier I wasnt sure if that is the case. But now it seems like what you stated earlier might very well be the case. I gotta give you that...Lets wait and see what unfolds the next 2 days after the GP.

I think they want the weekend to go on as normal and after that the real fireworks will commence...We fans are entitled to know the truth whatever be the case..

Looking at it logically, I just couldn't see how any Ferrari plans would benefit a manufacturer who had possibly the fastest car on the track. Not this year's car anyway as a re-design would take at least 8 months.

BUT for a team which has a car which runs like shyte, it makes perfect sense to try to get hands on a couple of decent designs and start on next year's car.

However, it does seem that Nick Fry is a decent guy and wouldn't have a BAR of it. But with the design of the current Ferrari and the top designer from McLaren, a very attractive proposition appears for a team which doesn't have a decent car.

Just refer to me as Valve Bounce QC in future; thanks in advance.

Hawkmoon

7th July 2007, 05:18

If Stepney and Coughlan were trying to land a job at Honda, why did Stepney give the Ferrari data to Coughlan? Both Coughlan and Stepney met with Fry so wouldn't it have been more prudent for them to each take their own teams data to the meeting rather than taking the risk of giving the Ferrari stuff to Coughlan? This is weird!

As it turns out, Coughlan figures it's OK to hand a 500 page document stamped "Confidential: Property of Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro" to a clerk at a copy store and ask him to whip up a couple of copies. That's not only weird, it's idiotic!

I don't think the makers of the next James Bond film will be asking either Stepney or Coughlan for tips on how to steal confidential data. :rolleyes:

ArrowsFA1

7th July 2007, 18:00

...it seems to make a lot more sense that Stepney and Coughlan planned to high tail it to Honda with a folder full of successful information to create a hybrid of the Ferrari and McLaren...
It does seem increasingly likely that this is what was going on - two individuals planning their future elsewhere.

I wonder if those who immediately implicated, and accused, McLaren of wrong doing have changed their minds yet?

TMorel

7th July 2007, 18:39

Hawkmoon - the makers of James Bond might not be knocking on Coughlan and Stepney's doors but I can imagine the writers of the next Mr.Bean movie taking an interest ;)

DonnieDarco

7th July 2007, 19:06

Hawkmoon - the makers of James Bond might not be knocking on Coughlan and Stepney's doors but I can imagine the writers of the next Mr.Bean movie taking an interest ;)

Its funny you should say that, because I've been speculating on how we might eventually find out that Ross Brawn and his white cat are the masterminds of the whole dastardly plan ;) :D

Helstar

8th July 2007, 06:16

I don't know if it was already said, I almost never read/write in this part of the forum, but this one is too hilarious xD

http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/sport/articoli/articolo369651.shtml

Sorry it's in italian, try some google translation, but what can I say ... LOOOOOOL !!! http://img.freeforumzone.it/upload/459333_ride5.gif

That guy will receive a Ferrari car soon as a gift, I guess rotfl

Valve Bounce

8th July 2007, 08:34

ioan

8th July 2007, 12:59

Here's what Stepney had to declare about this affair, it's pretty long and complicated, and it looks very very messy:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60613

Valve Bounce

8th July 2007, 13:20

I reckon this saga will drag on for years and Mike won't be able to get a decent posting with another team during the interim.

Something doesn't smell right here.

F1boat

8th July 2007, 13:24

It does seem increasingly likely that this is what was going on - two individuals planning their future elsewhere.

I wonder if those who immediately implicated, and accused, McLaren of wrong doing have changed their minds yet?

It is very nice, is it not? Poor Macca are again innocent and clean and the evil Honda Japanese are the villains? Macca are gentlemen? They to steal from Ferrari? How so? They are the "good guys", with "equal" status of the drivers! Ferrari and Honda are the villains!
:(
It is sad. FIA needs a new mega star and here comes Lamilton. He should be helped...
:(

ojciec dyrektor

8th July 2007, 13:30

Here's what Stepney had to declare about this affair, it's pretty long and complicated, and it looks very very messy:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60613

For me it makes sense. But where's the truth? I don't know.

F1boat

8th July 2007, 13:34

It sounds weird, IMO. From what I understood, he is completely clean, but the Ferrari have said assassins to slay his girlfriend and in the same time a mysterious villains sells info for Couhlan and as a result noble McLaren and innocent Stepney are insulted.

Robinho

8th July 2007, 13:48

ioan

8th July 2007, 13:53

read part of stepney's declaration of Innocence on ITV-F1, was interesting to read that he says he's been framed, that there has been a lot of contrversy down the years (at Ferrari) and he knows "where the bodies are hidden"

if this is the case we will never find out, Ferrari will buy his silence by dropping the case and making sure he stays out of F1 for good?

You don't really believe they were actually harming people at Ferrari.
I mean there are engineers that were able to leave Ferrari for other teams and nothing happened to them!

Or was he talking about unsuccessful car bodies? :D