Traction Control

[Mach24]

What is your thought on traction control, should it be allowed in MotoGP and WSBK?

I like the idea of the rider having the most influence possible on the bike.

Troy Corser said earlier this year that the bikes are becoming easier to ride thus bringing 'ordinary' riders closer to the front.

Nicky Hayden claims his improvements at Donington were related to less electronics and more human intervention (ie: himself)

As a spectator I like the idea of the rider controlling wheel spin via the throttle hand, not electronics.

Should MotoGP be the class that has all the new mod-cons and WSBK be a bit more workman like?

I want to see the rider man handle the bike, not the other way around.

[leopard]

Each rider might have different choice, ones get benefited with such instrument and it also has potent as trouble some for the rest.

As long as the electronic device doesn't interfere skill of the driver getting worse, I think it should be considered as modernized tolls on the way winning the game.

[ShiftingGears]

I still think the change to 800cc from 990 without removing traction control was a bad call. It should be more about the rider, not the bike.

[leopard]

That might be the reason Rossi didn't shine this year, but he has no complaint about traction control this far.

[Mach24]

I don't watch motor racing for the technology. I watch it to see the best rider/driver go at it with limited outside intervention.

On the other hand through motor racing so many great ideas have made it onto commercially available bikes/cars.

The topic was not created with the intent to put any rider down, simply to ask if there are any relevent opinions.

Where is the line drawn, was Doohans hand brake an aide? I know it was for a different purpose but where is the line. I guess in GP anything goes, it is really the separation between GP and WSBK.

[leopard]

The opinions made was still relevant, that the rider might have different taste about electronic device. Haga prefer manually operated bike like WSBK to electronic equipped motogp, and he can proof that he ride far better in WSBK instead of motogp.

I didn't see before that the expectation was about removing traction control on motogp will disclose the real ability of the rider.

I think traction control has been introduced since the former smaller class of 500 cc motogp, and therefore reducing the bike to 800 without removing the traction would be a bad call, IMO

[leopard]

I mean wouldn't be a bad call :)

[NinjaMaster]

I don't watch motor racing for the technology. I watch it to see the best rider/driver go at it with limited outside intervention.

On the other hand through motor racing so many great ideas have made it onto commercially available bikes/cars.

The topic was not created with the intent to put any rider down, simply to ask if there are any relevent opinions.

Where is the line drawn, was Doohans hand brake an aide? I know it was for a different purpose but where is the line. I guess in GP anything goes, it is really the separation between GP and WSBK.
This is a good topic Mach, well done.

I guess from my point of view, MotoGP is about prototypes and it would be too hard to police traction control. Plus, as mentioned, we do get the trickle down effect of technology coming through to production bikes which can be beneficial. In a perfect world, I'd like to see no traction control, especially in WSB but unless they run conrol electronics that can be monitored by the authorities, then I think it is going to be very hard to control.

[tha_jackal]

Its rumoured that one of the reasons Nicky found pace in the dry at Donington (aswell as the new chassis/exhaust) was that the team turned most of the traction control on his RC212V off, which enabled him to slide the bike under power/breaking more, the way in which he would whilst riding the 990. (his championship winning bike)

It will be interesting to see how his dry form progresses this w.e at Assen (fingers crossed for some good weather!)

[Mach24]

I was reading that Ant West was struggling (mentally) with the concept of opening the throttle fully on the start line and letting the launch control get him away.

He was quoted as saying 'opening the throttle fully is a good way to flip the bike'.

Not anymore now that the auto pilot launches you!

[leopard]

is there the better exhaust system than termignoni?

[Mach24]

AMA Superbike - Not Traction Control?

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Jun/e/n070627b.htm

[leopard]

Every single technology is made to make the job easier, but when it has potency raising new problem, we have no obligation at all to leave it off. :)

[ArmchairBikeFan]

I was reading that Ant West was struggling (mentally) with the concept of opening the throttle fully on the start line and letting the launch control get him away.

He was quoted as saying 'opening the throttle fully is a good way to flip the bike'.

Funny enough, I just saw a TV sports report about Speedway (or dirt tracking, depending on where you are.) They got the TV presenter all kitted up to have a go on the bike. Of course, Speedway riders start by just revving it up, dumping the clutch and leaning waaaay forward to keep the front wheel within a foot or two of the ground.
This TV presenter revs it up, dumps the clutch and flips it straight over backwards! Landed right on his backside. Priceless! :)

[AndyRAC]

I'd ban Traction Control, takes away the rider's skill, but it's probably difficult to police, which is why F1 don't ban it. If it could be policed I'd hope they would ban it, were is the skill in throttle control anymore?

[Mach24]

I'd ban Traction Control, takes away the rider's skill, but it's probably difficult to police, which is why F1 don't ban it. If it could be policed I'd hope they would ban it, were is the skill in throttle control anymore?


Andy, don't quote me on this but I think they are banning it from F1 as of 08' There will be a control CPU to ensure this is policed.

Don't shoot the messenger.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Jun/070619a9.htm

[leopard]

That's good they go more to an advance

[NinjaMaster]

It's funny how traction control benefits some people and not others. Stoner was one of the few not to run launch control last year was was one of, if not the best off the line in the field. Now Nicky is going faster now they turned his off. The problem for riders is about feel so if the traction control works really well but the rider can't come to grips with it and trust it enough then it won't be an aid to him.

[Mach24]

Nicky Hayden says his nightmare start to the 2007 season is over thanks to disengaging the Traction Control.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/30062007/58/dutch-tt-hayden-nightmare.html

[Mach24]

Dovizioso criticises MotoGP rider aids
By Michele Lostia and Matt Beer Saturday, November 17th 2007, 12:07 GMT

Andrea Dovizioso has expressed his disappointment at the level of electronic rider aids in MotoGP after stepping up from the 250cc class to the premier category.

The Italian has joined the reconstituted JiR Team Scot Honda operation for his MotoGP rookie season next year.

He admitted that devices like traction control made the GP bike less satisfying to ride than the 250cc machines.

"You get on the gas and everything is managed by the electronics, while with the 250cc you are always on the edge," Dovizioso told Gazzetta dello Sport. "I would have preferred less rider aids."

Dovizioso added that the current MotoGP bikes also compared unfavourably to the previous generation 990cc machinery, which he had sampled after winning the 2004 125cc championship.

"Two years ago, when I won the 125cc world title, as a prize I was awarded several laps on the 990cc and it was more impressive," he said.

The 21-year-old Italian has finished runner-up to fellow 2008 MotoGP graduate Jorge Lorenzo in the 250cc series for the last two years, but has been the fastest rookie in testing at Sepang this week.

Despite his speed in Malaysia, Dovizioso said he still had a lot of work to do to acclimatise to the MotoGP Honda.

"I still have problems with the engine braking and at turn entry I'm very slow," he said.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64022

[patnicholls]

Good post above, and I think we need to start calling Dovi 'The Professor' - definitely one of the most cerebral riders out there. Not just for comments like those quoted above [most rookies: "I'm just getting used to the bike"; Dovi: "I'd prefer more of a challenge"] but also his victory in Istanbul this year, which was a masterclass in racecraft against far superior machinery.

As for the TC debate, well it's very rare to see the rules changed to make machines harder to ride rather than easier (in fact, I'd like to see even one example - TC is supposedly banned in F1 next year but I bet all the teams'll sneak it in in their engine management software), so unfortunately it looks like it's here to stay.

[maxu05]

I would like to see the traction control banned myself. I would like to see which rider really is the best, rather than have doubts as to who is the best rider, or who had the best traction control system. I know they are prototypes, but if F1 can rid the sport of some of the driver aids, I don't see why MotoGp can't do it.

[ShiftingGears]

TC is supposedly banned in F1 next year but I bet all the teams'll sneak it in in their engine management software), so unfortunately it looks like it's here to stay.

Well all the F1 cars have the same ECU unit so it is enforcable...I don't know about the MotoGP ECU's though.

[chunder27]

Surely it cant be hard to have the same in GP and WSBK, most teams use the MArelli system anyway.

For me it takes all of the craft and artistry away from a GP rider and gives some of it to technicians and computer boffins.

Also some of it come back to money. Many teams in WSB can not afford then very best systems, they cost tens of thousands and you need to pay some tech just as much to work them out

Seems a real shame as especially this year the spectacle has gone from WSB, and definately from GP, the races are often processional as the riders and tryres slow up when tyres get too worn and the TC takes over

[axxexs]

This is the model of Magneti Marelli the most MotoGP team use. Suzuki, Kawasaki and Ducati I think. The Marvel4: http://www.marelli.it/racing/PDF/Electronic_Control_Systems_rev3.0_file/SF_Marvel4_rev4.0.pdf

But this is only the hard ware. The soft ware is differnent and Ducati have the most advanced.

Hmm.. the link doesnt work any more. Sorry!

[mx311]

I would like to see the traction control banned myself. I would like to see which rider really is the best, rather than have doubts as to who is the best rider, or who had the best traction control system. I know they are prototypes, but if F1 can rid the sport of some of the driver aids, I don't see why MotoGp can't do it.
The thing with MotoGP and traction control is, as you say, MotoGP is a prototype class. Like it or not, traction control is an important part of a road going motorcycle these days and MotoGP development is very important. By banning traction control in MotoGP it will hurt the everyday rider. Also, the MotoGP bikes have so much power these days it having no traction control would completely bugger the tyres, meaning the on-track racing would also suffer.

As for WSBK, I think the rules should say that they must run the standard TC unit off the production bike with zero mods allowed. Then it would be a level playing field.

[leopard]

The thing with MotoGP and traction control is, as you say, MotoGP is a prototype class. Like it or not, traction control is an important part of a road going motorcycle these days and MotoGP development is very important. By banning traction control in MotoGP it will hurt the everyday rider. Also, the MotoGP bikes have so much power these days it having no traction control would completely bugger the tyres, meaning the on-track racing would also suffer.

I thought that also, banning TC in a prototype bike would be considered as rejection on the technology.

However I still like motogp even though without TC involved, as long as there is no bike reduction like Dovi's Honda you post elsewhere. :)

[Mach24]

Like it or not

NOT!

[ChrisS]

As for WSBK, I think the rules should say that they must run the standard TC unit off the production bike with zero mods allowed. Then it would be a level playing field.

I'm sure that teams/manufacturers can easily argue that electronics including TC need to be moded for safety reasons

best solution IMHO is standard components supplied by the organizers

[Mach24]

I wish all the electronic aides were about when I was racing, then I might not have been so god damn woeful.

Read on......

Edwards explains Schumacher speed.
Thursday, 22nd November 2007

How did Michael Schumacher lap just five seconds slower than the MotoGP lap record?

Colin Edwards has explained how he believes it was possible for former seven-times F1 world champion Michael Schumacher to ride a MotoGP bike just five seconds off the Valencia lap record.

Schumacher set his stunning time during the press and guest day immediately after the season-ending grand prix - and despite only limited sportbike experience. The test was also the German legend's first on an 800cc Ducatiand just his second ever MotoGP ride.

The former Ferrari ace first sampled MotoGP power during a private test at Mugello in 2005, when he had lapped a much more sedate 15 seconds off the pace on a 990cc Desmosedici, so has the move to 800cc engines and increased reliance on electronics made the new-breed of machines too easy to ride?

Andrea Dovizioso certainly fuelled that debate after his own MotoGP debut at Valencia, by stating that his 250 was harder to control, but Edwards warned that it suddenly gets much harder as you approach the limit.

"These bikes are so advanced now - all you need to do is crank the electronics up to where you can't crash and you can go five seconds off the pace pretty easily. You just get in and nail it!" Edwards told Crash.net, when asked about Schumacher's lap time.

"But to find that last, four tenths say, you have to back the electronics off and really start to work it. It's like a gamble; play safe with the electronics and you'll be too slow. If everybody had the electronics turned up all the time then we would all be doing the same lap time.

"You have to tailor-make the electronics to suit your style," Colin revealed. "What Valentino [the Tax man Rossi] uses, I don't use and what I use maybe James [Tosser Toseland] doesn't use. Every rider has his own tailor-made electronics for what he likes; how he wants it to spin, how he wants it to move. That's where the last few tenths are."


http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/news/157469-0/edwards_explains_schumacher_speed.html

I'm not really bitter I promise.

[tha_jackal]

I had this to say at another forum and i'll say it again.. Colin seems to know alot about finding 'the last few tenths' for a bloke that runs towards the back of the mid-field... ;)

[Mach24]

Ezpeleta is interested in the use of a standard ECU throughout the grid to limit the influence of complex electronic control systems, which have substantially tamed MotoGPmachines in recent seasons.

"[Electronics] are the next thing we are working on" Ezpeleta told Motosprint magazine. "We need to regulate it and the ideal solution would be to have a standard [ECU] unit for everyone, but the manufacturers don't like the idea. It needs to be discussed further and I will talk with the riders, technicians and everybody involved."

Formula One, which already has a control tyre rule, will introduce a standard ECU in 2008.

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/news/158281-0/control_electronics.html

I gotta say I thought WSBK would have gone back to basics before the 'prototype' machines.

But it is a step in the right direction!

[NinjaMaster]

I had this to say at another forum and i'll say it again.. Colin seems to know alot about finding 'the last few tenths' for a bloke that runs towards the back of the mid-field... ;)

As a 2 time World Superbike champ and multiple MotoGP podium getter, he would. Just because he doesn't run at the pointy end so often these days doesn't mean he doesn't know what it takes, he just doesn't have it anymore.



Ezpeleta is interested in the use of a standard ECU throughout the grid to limit the influence of complex electronic control systems, which have substantially tamed MotoGPmachines in recent seasons.

"[Electronics] are the next thing we are working on" Ezpeleta told Motosprint magazine. "We need to regulate it and the ideal solution would be to have a standard [ECU] unit for everyone, but the manufacturers don't like the idea. It needs to be discussed further and I will talk with the riders, technicians and everybody involved."

Formula One, which already has a control tyre rule, will introduce a standard ECU in 2008.

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/news/158281-0/control_electronics.html

I gotta say I thought WSBK would have gone back to basics before the 'prototype' machines.

But it is a step in the right direction!

I think this is an excellent idea and I think it is something that the riders would be in favour of. However, as Matt mentioned earlier, the drawback of such a restriction is a decline in the technology filtering down to production bikes. Good for racing, bad for the consumer.

[ArmchairBikeFan]

As a 2 time World Superbike champ and multiple MotoGP podium getter, he would. Just because he doesn't run at the pointy end so often these days doesn't mean he doesn't know what it takes, he just doesn't have it anymore.

Yep, it's a bit of a shame that Colin wasn't on a decent GP bike at his absolute peak when he was winning the WSBK title. When he got to GP it was on that god-awful Aprilia, and when he got a good bike he was on the downward slope.

Personally I'm not at all convinced that racing traction control improves road machines. I'm sure that they are developed completely separately as they have very different aims. MotoGP traction control is about maximizing acceleration and minimizing tyre wear, while road bike traction control is about not letting the rider grab a handful half-way round a slippy corner and launch himself head first into a bus.

[jim mcglinchey]

I was reading a test of the KIMS ( kwak ignition management sysytem ) equpipped '08 ZX10R and they said that the system is designed to work when the rear wheel speed suddenly rises while the throttle opening is constant, as might happen on a diesel spill or wet manhole cover. Heroes who can wind it on coming out of a corner can still launch themselves.

[speeddurango]

I have to say bikes have to be riden with over powered rear wheels or else it isn't fun, but if it's good for the spectators, that it can narrow down the gaps between the front runner and the back runners then why not? I'm not riding these bikes and there won't be much difference you can tell from TV. So as long as it improves spectacle then I'm for it.

[JETFX...]

Well maybe a return to 500cc screamers would sort the men from the boys... now that would be entertaining to see the new crop handle those beasts again maybe even in the wet ;)

Question- can a rider adjust the TC sensitivity from the bike on track? or on/off etc or is the TC entirely to do with engine mapping carried out by team boss/engineer/rider for each track and/or given conditions??? is there any information available (url) as to how exactly it is configured? seems no one really understands how much TC is actually rider adjustable :confused:

[Mach24]

Well maybe a return to 500cc screamers would sort the men from the boys... now that would be entertaining to see the new crop handle those beasts again maybe even in the wet ;)

Question- can a rider adjust the TC sensitivity from the bike on track? or on/off etc or is the TC entirely to do with engine mapping carried out by team boss/engineer/rider for each track and/or given conditions??? is there any information available (url) as to how exactly it is configured? seems no one really understands how much TC is actually rider adjustable :confused:


My understanding is there are a couple of pre-sets which can be selected by the rider by the push of a button as required.

[JETFX...]

I presume then that the team engineers must then be able to upload these 'presets' say (2)? for rider during the race and then variables would have to be infinitely adjustable and depend on engine mapping and on tyre compond and track temp conditions!!!

[Mach24]

Johnny Rea highsided twice in one weekend on the 600. There was a suggestion this is because he is used to TC in BSB last year and has not yet come to grips with the lack of TC in WSS.......

[maxu05]

Perhaps he needs to study the master of sideways, Dr McCoy and just smoke it up :laugh: I don't think McCoy would be too comfortable with TC somehow.

[NinjaMaster]

McCoy must be loving it. Like overgrown 250's that need corner speed to go fast but have the power to powerslide. Oh yeah. :up:

[JETFX...]

Vote #1 - Bring back the 'Real McCoy'
Iam quitely confident Gazza would be able to adapt to the Duke pretty quickly...he deserves a crack at a decent ride, I reckon he could 'still' be a contender given an even break :s mokin:

One of the last true 'gunfighters'.... we miss you Gaz :s pin:

[maxu05]

If they disconnected the traction control on the Duke, and put McCoy at the controls, No one would be able to get past Gassa, they would not be able to see pst all the tyre smoke :burnout: :D

[axxexs]

Johnny Rea highsided twice in one weekend on the 600. There was a suggestion this is because he is used to TC in BSB last year and has not yet come to grips with the lack of TC in WSS.......

I think they did have TC in WSS for maybe 2-3 years ago. Or more. I can ask a freind that is mechanic in WSS. He said before to me that he think that TK did have LC from 2001 i WSS. There is team that have the same ECU box in WSS as Ducati and Kawasaki have in MotoGP. The Magneti Marelli Marvel4.