JPM: McLaren always have a no.1 driver

[ioan]

Q: Yes, but isn't Hamilton a good driver?

JPM: "Oh, he's really good. I am not going to say the guy is not good. The guy is really good. But he has an advantage that . . . they are always going to say that it's equal stuff. But there really always is a favourite driver on the team."

http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=5f089403-2a41-40f2-bf8b-9aa62154d8a0&k=1769&p=2

[ojciec dyrektor]

In McLaren favourite driver is the one, who can win WDC in Ferrari it was Michael. Can You understand the difference? If not try to recall yelling Todt at leading Rubens: Let Michael through!!!!

[Big Ben]

In McLaren favourite driver is the one, who can win WDC in Ferrari it was Michael. Can You understand the difference? If not try to recall yelling Todt at leading Rubens: Let Michael through!!!!

No. He doesn´t understand it.

It´s interesting to see the actual quote and the title of the thread... It looks like the job of a journalist.

JPM was not the favorite driver because he was an idiot.

[Ian McC]

Well there is a driver with an axe to grind

[ioan]

If not try to recall yelling Todt at leading Rubens: Let Michael through!!!!

Link please!

[ojciec dyrektor]

There was no comment on the issue from the Ferrari team, who were responsible for the FIA's introduction of a ban on team orders at the end of the 2002 season after they had ordered Rubens Barrichello to concede victory on the last lap of the Austrian grand prix to his team-mate Michael Schumacher.


http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorsport/story/0,,2091744,00.html

and here's video in case You haven't seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-PgZ7Psel8

Of course they could yelling: "Fight to the end Rubens" lol

Please, stop talking about team orders.

[e2mtt]

Yeah like JPM can talk unbiasedly about McLaren.

What Lewis has just done:

2 consecutive POLES & WINS as a ROOKIE ahead of his 2-TIME defending WDC TEAMMATE (in equal equipment) in only his 6th & 7th GPs, on CIRCUITS THAT HE HAD NEVER RUN BEFORE!!!!

If that isn't showing motor racing greatness, I don't know what is. Alonso just got beat. (Does anyone here doubt that Hamilton would have been able to get back by, had Alonso passed him at the USGP? Probably right through the grass if necessary, if his GP2 career highlights are any indication.)

[ShiftingGears]

JPM was not the favorite driver because he was an idiot.

Agreed. Never bothered to sort his head out.

[Ranger]

(Does anyone here doubt that Hamilton would have been able to get back by, had Alonso passed him at the USGP? )

Definitely. Passing in F1 is an "IF" and not an "IF NOT" as proven many times over. One of the reasons Alonso got close was that Hamilton had to slow down slightly because of the backmarker, which lost him speed. On slipstream alone, Alonso wouldn't have got close, and Hamilton wouldn't have either, yet alone pass him.

[aryan]

http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=5f089403-2a41-40f2-bf8b-9aa62154d8a0&k=1769&p=2

And can JPM point out why the favourite driver should be a rookie, and not a 2 x WDC?

JPM, you had it and you lost it. Better not turn yourself into a sour loser.

[F1boat]

When JPM critisizes MS, he is a hero.
If he critisizes precious LH, he is sore loser.
Well, IMO he is absolutely right. There is no doubt that McLaren's team politics are more subtle than Ferrari ones, but Ron prefered Kimi to Juan, Mika to Dc and Ayrton to Alen. Obviously he prefers his boy Lewis to Fred.
That's my opinion, at least.

[AndyL]

Unsubstantiated rumour from a friend of a friend who works at McLaren: on the Tuesday after the US GP, Lewis is eating his lunch in the company canteen alongside all the other McLaren employees. Fernando is nowhere to be seen, and in fact probably doesn't know where the employee canteen is.
If people at McLaren favour Hamilton over Alonso, this may partly indicate why.

[Valve Bounce]

Unsubstantiated rumour from a friend of a friend who works at McLaren: on the Tuesday after the US GP, Lewis is eating his lunch in the company canteen alongside all the other McLaren employees. Fernando is nowhere to be seen, and in fact probably doesn't know where the employee canteen is.
If people at McLaren favour Hamilton over Alonso, this may partly indicate why.

They favour Hamilton because he pays for their lunch at the canteen? :confused:

[F1boat]

They favour Hamilton because he pays for their lunch at the canteen? :confused:

ROFL!!!

[ojciec dyrektor]

Fernando is nowhere to be seen, and in fact probably doesn't know where the employee canteen is.


Oh, come on! They sign 2-time WDC, they give him 30 mln EUR, they hidding canteen and tell him to eat somewhere else? Please...

Maybe Fernando missed lunch for the same reason Kimi missed presentation by Pele? :D

[Eki]

When JPM critisizes MS, he is a hero.
If he critisizes precious LH, he is sore loser.
Well, IMO he is absolutely right. There is no doubt that McLaren's team politics are more subtle than Ferrari ones, but Ron prefered Kimi to Juan, Mika to Dc and Ayrton to Alen. Obviously he prefers his boy Lewis to Fred.
That's my opinion, at least.
And why does he pay Alonso that much more than Hamilton then? He could get a loser for much cheaper.

[donKey jote]

Or a boozer for much more :dozey:

[ioan]

Or a boozer for much more :dozey:

:rotflmao:

[BenRoethig]

Most F1 teams do have a driver who has better equipment than the other since its based on a "team" concept. One driver has to be lead and one has to get the shaft.

[BenRoethig]

Unsubstantiated rumour from a friend of a friend who works at McLaren: on the Tuesday after the US GP, Lewis is eating his lunch in the company canteen alongside all the other McLaren employees. Fernando is nowhere to be seen, and in fact probably doesn't know where the employee canteen is.
If people at McLaren favour Hamilton over Alonso, this may partly indicate why.

I can understand that. Quite frankly, I find the attitude towards the teams from a lot of F1 drivers to be absolutely appalling. I wonder if some of them are actually capable of caring about other people. Hamilton seems like a guy they can rally around.

[Eki]

Double post

[Eki]

Unsubstantiated rumour from a friend of a friend who works at McLaren: on the Tuesday after the US GP, Lewis is eating his lunch in the company canteen alongside all the other McLaren employees. Fernando is nowhere to be seen, and in fact probably doesn't know where the employee canteen is.
If people at McLaren favour Hamilton over Alonso, this may partly indicate why..
But I think that attitude comes from the common employees of McLaren and not necessarily from the management.

[rohanweb]

Most F1 teams do have a driver who has better equipment than the other since its based on a "team" concept. One driver has to be lead and one has to get the shaft.

given the above, at McLaren ..if LH is being 'favoured' as the 'best' one to lead the championship for an instance, does this says something about the fact the LH is much better than FA.. (nevermind FA's is a two times world champ & gets millions wages compared to LH)..

if McLaren 'favours' Lewis then its nothing to do with coz he is british, but he has what it takes to win the championship , drivers faster & faultless compared to FA ;)

[Big Ben]

given the above, at McLaren ..if LH is being 'favoured' as the 'best' one to lead the championship for an instance, does this says something about the fact the LH is much better than FA.. (nevermind FA's is a two times world champ & gets millions wages compared to LH)..

if McLaren 'favours' Lewis then its nothing to do with coz he is british, but he has what it takes to win the championship , drivers faster & faultless compared to FA ;)

yeah... that´s it! You want to say they favor him because he´s God! right?

[jso1985]

erm...

on this forum:
after Monaco GP: "McLaren clearly favours Alonso"
After US GP: "McLaren clearly favours Hamilton"

... so who's driver number 1?

[janneppi]

erm...

on this forum:
after Monaco GP: "McLaren clearly favours Alonso"
After US GP: "McLaren clearly favours Hamilton"

... so who's driver number 1?
Obviously the driver who won the last race, he has to be favoured because the other guy was faster for a couple of laps during a race. :)

Number driver isn't necessarily the same thing as "the driver that has warmer relationship with the personnel"
At least it shouldn't be a a professional team.

[F1boat]

And why does he pay Alonso that much more than Hamilton then? He could get a loser for much cheaper.

He didn't know how good is Lewis. When he saw that the kid is really good, he became to favour him IMO.

[Narr]

The investment McLaren have made in Lewis is quite large, probably in the region of £10m. It always appeared that McLaren were favouring one driver over the other and it doesn't look any different this season; this is different from telling another driver to pull over for a teammate but it still gives the other driver an edge.

[Eki]

It always appeared that McLaren were favouring one driver over the other and it doesn't look any different this season;

Why, and how's that different from other teams? Didn't it likewise seem like Renault was favouring Alonso over Fisichella and now they are favouring Fischella over Kovalainen?

[Mark]

The investment McLaren have made in Lewis is quite large, probably in the region of £10m. It always appeared that McLaren were favouring one driver over the other and it doesn't look any different this season; this is different from telling another driver to pull over for a teammate but it still gives the other driver an edge.

That's very true. While Alonso has been signed to McLaren since the start of 2006, Hamilton signed to McLaren in 1998.

[leopard]

He didn't know how good is Lewis. When he saw that the kid is really good, he became to favour him IMO.

True, the reason why is now FA on the McLaren because nobody knows that LH will drive that good.
In the event RD was convinced about plan A on FA, I think he still gain more favor until today.

[Valve Bounce]

The investment McLaren have made in Lewis is quite large, probably in the region of £10m. It always appeared that McLaren were favouring one driver over the other and it doesn't look any different this season; this is different from telling another driver to pull over for a teammate but it still gives the other driver an edge.

This is ridiculous. McLaren hired Alonso because he was the champion, he beat SchM and he was going to win the championship for them.

To suggest they hired Fernando to be #2 driver to the rookie Lewis Hamilton is just plain silly. If they wanted to do that, they could have hired DC. :rolleyes:

[leopard]

If they hired DC to be the second to FA, so who should Redbull hire to be the second to Webber? :)

[Narr]

This is ridiculous. McLaren hired Alonso because he was the champion, he beat SchM and he was going to win the championship for them.

To suggest they hired Fernando to be #2 driver to the rookie Lewis Hamilton is just plain silly. If they wanted to do that, they could have hired DC. :rolleyes:

I didn't suggest they hired Alonso to be number 2; just pointing out that they appear to have a favourite driver and they always have had a favourite. Even when it comes down to who the team personel favour that's still going to be an advantage.

[Narr]

Why, and how's that different from other teams?

No different at all ;)


Didn't it likewise seem like Renault was favouring Alonso over Fisichella and now they are favouring Fischella over Kovalainen?

Alonso was Flav's and Kovaleinen is Flav's signing so I can't really see why he'd want to favour Fisi at any point.

[Flat.tyres]

Or a boozer for much more :dozey:

one of the best things Ive read on here :up:

This smacks of gutter press but one thing i will say that in no way lends my weight to this rubbish is that JPM is a very balanced driver. He has a chip on both shoulders.

[Valve Bounce]

I didn't suggest they hired Alonso to be number 2; just pointing out that they appear to have a favourite driver and they always have had a favourite. Even when it comes down to who the team personel favour that's still going to be an advantage.


Well, you started out with all the money they had spent on Hamilton, then the next statement was that they always favoured one driver. So what the hell has all the money they spent on Hamilton got to do with who they favoured, if you weren't going down that road? :confused:

[F1boat]

Well, you started out with all the money they had spent on Hamilton, then the next statement was that they always favoured one driver. So what the hell has all the money they spent on Hamilton got to do with who they favoured, if you weren't going down that road? :confused:

Valve, I think that the original plan was Lewis to learn for FA this season. But Lewis proved to be good enough with a superior car and Macca started to give him more attention.

[Narr]

Well, you started out with all the money they had spent on Hamilton, then the next statement was that they always favoured one driver. So what the hell has all the money they spent on Hamilton got to do with who they favoured, if you weren't going down that road? :confused:

No one in their right mind (and I use this loosely where Ron is concerned) would hire a 2x WDC to be number 2 to a rookie but McLaren's future is with Lewis. 2 or 3 years down the line Alonso will be gone but Lewis will be there for a long time to come.

[Valve Bounce]

The way I see it right now, Ron Dennis is just about as equal as he possibly could be with these two drivers. He may have started out knowing that Alonso would bring him the championships, but now it seems that either driver can.
I don't think the signs point to him favouring either driver at the moment.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's nice to know JPM's views are still so highly valued in some quarters at certain times :p

The only reason any of this is an issue is because of Hamilton's talent, not McLaren's policy towards their drivers.

[F1boat]

The way I see it right now, Ron Dennis is just about as equal as he possibly could be with these two drivers. He may have started out knowing that Alonso would bring him the championships, but now it seems that either driver can.
I don't think the signs point to him favouring either driver at the moment.

Everybody has his own opinion.

[Valve Bounce]

Everybody has his own opinion.
That's true. And if it is presented in a rational manner here, then I would respect that opinion.
On the other hand, if I think it is silly, then I reckon I could say that too!

No offence.

[Flat.tyres]

lets face it, McLaren want to win. They have taken on a 2X WDC to do this and a great rookie to back that up.

Everyone has been caught out at the pace of Lewis as he was a fraction off Alonsos pace at the start of the season, level after 3 races and have progressed since then.

points make prizes in this game and if Freddie cannot up his game, he is going to get very frustrated as the season goes on. There is no favoring or equipment, resourses or personnel within McLaren but if you qualify faster in the race you get first dibbs on strategy and if your partner has no chance of winning the championship, he is expected to support you.

JPM was always a loose cannon and left McLaren with a bruised ego and an axe to grind. whats he going to say? "McLaren always treated us drivers equally but I just wasnt good enough!" :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

It's strange that it's always the less fortunate / talented driver who seems to complain.

q.v. Eddie Irvine ;)

[kalasend]

Unsubstantiated rumour from a friend of a friend who works at McLaren: on the Tuesday after the US GP, Lewis is eating his lunch in the company canteen alongside all the other McLaren employees. Fernando is nowhere to be seen, and in fact probably doesn't know where the employee canteen is.
If people at McLaren favour Hamilton over Alonso, this may partly indicate why.

It could be more story-telling if he said that Alonso never appears and eats with the crew. Not showing up on a particular Tuesday means nothing.

[race aficionado]

True, the reason why is now FA on the McLaren because nobody knows that LH will drive that good.
In the event RD was convinced about plan A on FA, I think he still gain more favor until today.

I always like the theory that said the RD would get rid of the competition by buying the competition.
He got JPM from Williams
and then got FA from Renault - and then was able to have those thoroughbreds in his stable and dedicate himself to "his" drivers, Kimi and LH.

how's that for a pot stirrer! :D

no link . . . . I just remember reading that from some thread somewhere in cyberspace . . . . . . .

I'm out of here!

:s mokin:

[Narr]

I always like the theory that said the RD would get rid of the competition by buying the competition.
He got JPM from Williams
and then got FA from Renault - and then was able to have those thoroughbreds in his stable and dedicate himself to "his" drivers, Kimi and LH.

how's that for a pot stirrer! :D

no link . . . . I just remember reading that from some thread somewhere in cyberspace . . . . . . .

I'm out of here!

:s mokin:

Yep, I've heard that theory with JPM. The trouble is he wouldn't have known how good Lewis was in an F1 car on the track; he really got Alonso to bring the title in.

[kalasend]

yeah... that´s it! You want to say they favor him because he´s God! right?

You don't need to be God to be favored by a race team. Just show some speed, consistency, matureness, and more promising future, over your teammate. And get all of those done in first half of your rookie year. :D

[ojciec dyrektor]

erm...

on this forum:
after Monaco GP: "McLaren clearly favours Alonso"
After US GP: "McLaren clearly favours Hamilton"

... so who's driver number 1?

yyy Fernado Hamilton? :D

[Ian McC]

The trouble is he wouldn't have known how good Lewis was in an F1 car on the track; he really got Alonso to bring the title in.


RD has been watching Lewis for years, I think he had a better idea than most about how good he was going to be ;)

[leopard]

I'm out of here!

:s mokin:
you were out when the race running, that's not good

:s mokin:

[F1boat]

I always like the theory that said the RD would get rid of the competition by buying the competition.
He got JPM from Williams
and then got FA from Renault - and then was able to have those thoroughbreds in his stable and dedicate himself to "his" drivers, Kimi and LH.

how's that for a pot stirrer! :D

no link . . . . I just remember reading that from some thread somewhere in cyberspace . . . . . . .

I'm out of here!

:s mokin:

That's a nice theory.

[Narr]

RD has been watching Lewis for years, I think he had a better idea than most about how good he was going to be ;)

I can't agree with that at all. Lewis was excellent in lower formulae but then so are the majority of race drivers that make it into F1. The list of drivers that beat everyone before F1 is huge but when they get to F1 they have the politics, the press, the cars and the teams to deal with; and at no point would anyone take a risk that a rookie would be able to win the WDC.

[Ian McC]

I can't agree with that at all. Lewis was excellent in lower formulae but then so are the majority of race drivers that make it into F1. The list of drivers that beat everyone before F1 is huge but when they get to F1 they have the politics, the press, the cars and the teams to deal with; and at no point would anyone take a risk that a rookie would be able to win the WDC.

Many agree Lewis is the best prepared driver to enter F1, I don't think RD thought it was too much of a risk.

[ioan]

Many agree Lewis is the best prepared driver to enter F1, I don't think RD thought it was too much of a risk.

Yeah, sure! That's why he was considering even de la Rosa for this season. :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah, sure! That's why he was considering even de la Rosa for this season. :rolleyes:


LINK PLEASE!!

(not that I don't believe you - just want to keep you on your toes) :D

[pits4me]

Yeah like JPM can talk unbiasedly about McLaren.

What Lewis has just done:

2 consecutive POLES & WINS as a ROOKIE ahead of his 2-TIME defending WDC TEAMMATE (in equal equipment) in only his 6th & 7th GPs, on CIRCUITS THAT HE HAD NEVER RUN BEFORE!!!!

If that isn't showing motor racing greatness, I don't know what is. Alonso just got beat. (Does anyone here doubt that Hamilton would have been able to get back by, had Alonso passed him at the USGP? Probably right through the grass if necessary, if his GP2 career highlights are any indication.)

Maybe would have passed Alonson in Monaco had he not been instructed to play it safe for the team.

[Roamy]

well i don't really see a problem here. FA went for the money - RD bought a two year deal to cover his ass. The roookie turned out to be faster than thought. Alonso just has to suck it up and go faster and look for his next team down stream. Hamilton is the future and Alonso was the co-signer

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe would have passed Alonson in Monaco had he not been instructed to play it safe for the team.


That was simply not going to happen. What made you think that passing is on at Monaco?
Many have tried, and a few have even been kissed by the armco. :eek:

[aryan]

You don't need to be God to be favored by a race team. Just show some speed, consistency, matureness, and more promising future, over your teammate. And get all of those done in first half of your rookie year. :D

Yes of course, and if your teammate is the current 2 x WDC and you still achieve the above objectives, then maybe you do deserve that little bit of favour?

PS: I am not suggesting there is favour in McLaren in any way, I do believe the team is giving its two drivers equal machinery and treatment, and it even lets them race until after the last pit stop, which is more than one could hope for from a certain other team...

[F1boat]

That certain other team allowed his Finnish driver to chase the Brazilian one ate one of the most dangerous tracks in F1.

[janneppi]

That certain other team allowed his Finnish driver to chase the Brazilian one ate one of the most dangerous tracks in F1.
No, that was McLaren too and at that point Senna was generally faster than Häkkinen. :)

[ioan]

No, that was McLaren too and at that point Senna was generally faster than Häkkinen. :)

:rolleyes: Selective memory!

[janneppi]

:rolleyes: Selective memory!
Ok , Mika was faster than Senna in his first qualifying. ;)

[Garry Walker]

Yeah, sure! That's why he was considering even de la Rosa for this season. :rolleyes:

From what I have heard, Pedro was never a serious candidate for the drive. So McLaren actually behaved quite unnicely to Pedro, because they kept him with a hope for the seat when in reality he didnt have any hope to get it.

[ioan]

Ok , Mika was faster than Senna in his first qualifying. ;)

Oups, it's getting worse, I shouldn't have said anything! :p :

[ioan]

From what I have heard, Pedro was never a serious candidate for the drive. So McLaren actually behaved quite unnicely to Pedro, because they kept him with a hope for the seat when in reality he didnt have any hope to get it.

McLaren only behaved nicely with half of their drivers, Ron's favorites, the rest of them were there to make up the numbers.

[janneppi]

Speaking of Pedro, according to a Finnish F1 site he has denied what JPM apparently said about Lewis having the hold on his team.

"- Montoya ei ole oikeassa sanoessaan, että jompi kumpi kuljettaja olisi valta-asemassa toiseen nähden, tässä tapauksessa Hamilton Alonsoon nähden. Fernando on kaksinkertainen mestari, joten ei hänellä voi olla vähäisempää painoarvoa, de la Rosa korosti."
Translated:
"Montoya is incorrect at saying that one driver(LH in this case) has more power than the other, Alonso is a two time WDC, so he can't be in a lesser position."

He also denied showing more favouritism towards Alonso despite them both being Spaniards.
Corporate talk or not, who knows?

While Lewis might have familliar relationship with the British engineers, surely Alonso will benefit having DelaRosa there, a man who has spend 75 years with the team and should know a thing or two about working with the team.

[Big Ben]

I think PDLR is a good professional and I think he can be objective... But he´s opinions are a bit redundant... we have plenty of experts on this forum

Regarding the ironical remarks of a certain armchair expert (member here)... de la Rosa is a better driver than some drivers that have a seat in f1 these days

[F1boat]

Speaking of Pedro, according to a Finnish F1 site he has denied what JPM apparently said about Lewis having the hold on his team.

"- Montoya ei ole oikeassa sanoessaan, että jompi kumpi kuljettaja olisi valta-asemassa toiseen nähden, tässä tapauksessa Hamilton Alonsoon nähden. Fernando on kaksinkertainen mestari, joten ei hänellä voi olla vähäisempää painoarvoa, de la Rosa korosti."
Translated:
"Montoya is incorrect at saying that one driver(LH in this case) has more power than the other, Alonso is a two time WDC, so he can't be in a lesser position."

He also denied showing more favouritism towards Alonso despite them both being Spaniards.
Corporate talk or not, who knows?

While Lewis might have familliar relationship with the British engineers, surely Alonso will benefit having DelaRosa there, a man who has spend 75 years with the team and should know a thing or two about working with the team.

There were rumours about Coulthard, Montoya, now Alonso... there is no smoke without fire...

[ioan]

Speaking of Pedro, according to a Finnish F1 site he has denied what JPM apparently said about Lewis having the hold on his team.

"- Montoya ei ole oikeassa sanoessaan, että jompi kumpi kuljettaja olisi valta-asemassa toiseen nähden, tässä tapauksessa Hamilton Alonsoon nähden. Fernando on kaksinkertainen mestari, joten ei hänellä voi olla vähäisempää painoarvoa, de la Rosa korosti."
Translated:
"Montoya is incorrect at saying that one driver(LH in this case) has more power than the other, Alonso is a two time WDC, so he can't be in a lesser position."

He also denied showing more favouritism towards Alonso despite them both being Spaniards.
Corporate talk or not, who knows?

While Lewis might have familliar relationship with the British engineers, surely Alonso will benefit having DelaRosa there, a man who has spend 75 years with the team and should know a thing or two about working with the team.

Bah!
PdlR knows that if McLaren kick him out, he'll be out of the business, so he does the politically correct work and hopes to test another 20 more days in an F1 car. :down:

I have to say that for one I liked FA coming out and saying that what Ron said was not true.

And as F1boat said there is a pattern at McLaren proving what JPM said.

[janneppi]

Should we now also believe the rumours that Ferrari has been given preferencial treatment from FIA? Apparently that's been going on for years. ;)

You're seriously suggesting that McLaren hires drivers like Alonso and JPM, paying them millions just to put them in the backshelf?

[Garry Walker]

Bah!
PdlR knows that if McLaren kick him out, he'll be out of the business, so he does the politically correct work and hopes to test another 20 more days in an F1 car. :down:

I have to say that for one I liked FA coming out and saying that what Ron said was not true.

And as F1boat said there is a pattern at McLaren proving what JPM said.

I hope you arent seriously thinking that McLaren hired Alonso at 20 million a year just to have him be nr.2 to LH?

[F1boat]

I hope you arent seriously thinking that McLaren hired Alonso at 20 million a year just to have him be nr.2 to LH?

When Ron have been rational?

[Ian McC]

McLaren only behaved nicely with half of their drivers, Ron's favorites, the rest of them were there to make up the numbers.


McLaren wont be any different than any of the other teams, they will put the best drivers in the car that they can get.

[Bezza]

At least McLaren let the guys race! Having had to put up with Ferrari's shambolic team orders for the last 10 years, its a breath of fresh air.

You think McLaren favour Hamilton when him and Alonso are wheel to wheel at over 200mph on Lap 38 of the Indy GP? It was a great moment - ala Mansell and Senna in 1991.

Alonso was beaten fair and square. His bitching on track because he felt he had a faster car is just stupid. If Hamilton let him past then that WOULD be team orders! Hamilton had track position and therefore every right to defend it. And that is what he did, and that is what McLaren LET him do.

Monaco was different. It is intensely difficult to overtake. Any move from Hamilton had a high chance of one or both of them crashing! Therefore, common sense meant maintain position.

Saying all this if Hamilton continues to outshine Alonso then I know what will happen. Alonso to Ferrari, Raikkonen back to McLaren :)

[Big Ben]

Saying all this if Hamilton continues to outshine Alonso then I know what will happen. Alonso to Ferrari, Raikkonen back to McLaren :)

and KR will start beating LH and get beaten by FA.

Having had to put up with Ferrari's shambolic team orders for the last 10 years, its a breath of fresh air.

Shambolic?

5 driver's titles and 6 constructor titles doesn't suggest shambolic.

[PSfan]

What an entertaining thread, and a testament to Ron Dennis ingenious use of the press! He’s practically a magician with his slight of hand tricks. All it takes is the press getting word that Alonso thinks he’s not getting the same treatment as the British racer to make us forget what’s already happened.

During both of Alonso’s wins, Lewis seemed less then thrilled about his 2nd place finish in those races. Ron went on record after Alonso’s first race on how the driver who qualifies best has first choice of pit strategies. After the Monaco race, we’re fed some non-sense about who had what in their tanks when they pitted.

However Hamilton’s wins came contrary to Alonso still getting the better pit strategies. Montreal, Hamilton pits first, which is usually bad except he managed to luck out with the safety car. Alonso, contrary to Monaco when the team insisted their drivers pit with a few laps of fuel spare, gambled and in the end was forced to take a penalty because they didn’t have enough fuel for 1 lap behind the sc?!?

The Speedtv/fox guys made sure to show us that had Alonso not messed up, and lost I believe 1.5 secs just prior to the last stops, he would have come out ahead of Hamilton.

So in short, I do agree with Juan, and that there is favoritism at McLeran, but I don’t think its Lewis that in benefiting from it.

[ioan]

At least McLaren let the guys race! Having had to put up with Ferrari's shambolic team orders for the last 10 years, its a breath of fresh air.

Bla bla bla!

Oz GP 1998 rings a bell about McLaren ethics. Team orders at the very first GP of the year. You tell me that Ferrari ever did worse than that.

If some of you guys would be able to judge things objectively for a moment you would see that McLaren aren't the angels compared to Ferrari. But after many years spent on this forum I know that I can't expect that from most of our British members.

[Scuderia ferrari]

Of cours JPM is gonna be kicking up stuff about mclaren and bla, blah, blah. But it actully think this could be true. Who is winning races at the moment? Lewis. Who do i think Mclaren will get behing to win the WDC? Lewis

[Dave B]

Bla bla bla!

Oz GP 1998 rings a bell about McLaren ethics. Team orders at the very first GP of the year. You tell me that Ferrari ever did worse than that.


There's two versions of events:

1) Mika mis-heard a radio call; or if you believe the conspiracy theories, a rival team faked one. Either way, he came in for a pitstop at the wrong time. Ron simply "corrected" the result.

2) The two drivers had a pre-race agreement: whoever led at the first corner would win the race if McLaren found themselves running 1-2. This was a gentleman's agreement, and nothing to do with team orders.

[555-04Q2]

2) The two drivers had a pre-race agreement: whoever led at the first corner would win the race if McLaren found themselves running 1-2. This was a gentleman's agreement, and nothing to do with team orders.

True :up: but it still effects the end result and hurts punters at the bet shops which is one of the reasons why team orders is banned. Its not much different to fixing a soccer game and yes, Ferrari are also guilty of team orders.

[Garry Walker]

2) The two drivers had a pre-race agreement: whoever led at the first corner would win the race if McLaren found themselves running 1-2. This was a gentleman's agreement, and nothing to do with team orders.

Time to destroy this myth once and for all.

In Ron Dennis` own words, after the Monaco GP.


------------
"Team strategy is what you bring to bear to win a Grand Prix. Team orders is what you bring to bear to manipulate a Grand Prix.

"And we do not and have not manipulated Grands Prix, unless there were some exceptional circumstances, which occurred, for example, in Australia [1998], when at that time someone had tapped into our radio and instructed Mika Hakkinen to enter the pits.

"He entered the pits and I reversed that, because that was unfair, that was an outside influence on the outcome of the race. That is one of the very rare occasions that there's been a team order.

"I don't feel uncomfortable with them. I sleep easy. I have a clear conscience, both on that particular race - and this race today."

---------

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59231

[ArrowsFA1]

Time to destroy this myth once and for all.
There's no "myth" to destroy. The team & drivers made it clear at the time that DC was asked to let MH through because of the mysterious pitstop MH had made, causing him to lose the lead.

RD's comments add nothing, other than the radio tap, to what we knew 9 years ago.

[ioan]

There's two versions of events:

1) Mika mis-heard a radio call; or if you believe the conspiracy theories, a rival team faked one. Either way, he came in for a pitstop at the wrong time. Ron simply "corrected" the result.

2) The two drivers had a pre-race agreement: whoever led at the first corner would win the race if McLaren found themselves running 1-2. This was a gentleman's agreement, and nothing to do with team orders.

But why is that we have 2 different versions coming from within the team?
Why they didn't simply say the truth ( drivers and RD)?
You know if something happens and an inquiry is made, and no one has interest to hide the truth, than everyone tells the truth (which can be only one!).
So why did they lie?

The same happened this year after the Monaco race, explanations coming from LH, FA and RD were all different.

And the same happened at the 2005 Canadian GP, after they destroyed JPM's race by not calling him in first under SC conditions while he was leading. The explanations were not the same. Whether they were coming from the drivers, from RD or even from Martin Withmarsh, the explanations were different!

That's 3 times when they used team orders to decide the outcome of the race but they never ever were men enough to stand up for their actions! A bunch of hypocritical pansies. Couldn't be a fan of such a bunch! :down:

[ioan]

There's no "myth" to destroy. The team & drivers made it clear at the time that DC was asked to let MH through because of the mysterious pitstop MH had made, causing him to lose the lead.

RD's comments add nothing, other than the radio tap, to what we knew 9 years ago.

What are you drinking?
RD said they asked DC to let MH through, the drivers said that they had a pre-race agreement blah blah. How is that clear? Maybe clear has another meaning in "Ronspeak" that in English?!

[Breeze]

I thought this telling about JPM's attitude towards McLaren (at least, possibly even Williams?). This taken from an interview after his NASCAR win at Sonoma.



Q: Is this the happiest you've ever been?

JPM: "Yeah, as a person, I am really happy right now. Working with Chip has been really cool. I really like Chip. He believes in you, and he supports you. He's just a guy that really believes in me, and he'll trust you 100 percent. Chip is a guy if something goes wrong, he still always believes I can get the job done."

Q: Been a long time since you received that kind of support from a boss?

JPM: "I don't even want to discuss that."

For the rest of the interview and article....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070627/ap_on_sp_au_ra_ne/car_nascar_juan_s_world_2

[ArrowsFA1]

But why is that we have 2 different versions coming from within the team?
We do not have "2 different versions". There were two completely seperate events in the same race: 1) the pre-race driver agreement and 2) Mika's unneccesary pit stop.

Why they didn't simply say the truth ( drivers and RD)?
They did. At the time, and since.

So why did they lie?
See above.

What are you drinking?
RD said they asked DC to let MH through, the drivers said that they had a pre-race agreement blah blah. How is that clear?
It's clear because that's what happened. Oh, and I'm drinking coffee :D

[OmarF1]

There's two versions of events:


2) The two drivers had a pre-race agreement: whoever led at the first corner would win the race if McLaren found themselves running 1-2. This was a gentleman's agreement, and nothing to do with team orders.

I Think this sort of "agreements" are pretty crappy, makes the sport really look like a business, nowadays drivers are so afraid to disappoint the sponsors that they forget the basic principles of racing: try to be faster than your rivals and race them.

[ioan]

We do not have "2 different versions". There were two completely seperate events in the same race: 1) the pre-race driver agreement and 2) Mika's unneccesary pit stop.

Yeah, sure.
I mean is there a F1 driver who is idiot enough to accept that his race is over at the first turn?

It was team orders, as those issued by Ferrari and other teams. What bothers me is that they don't have the balls to publicly own up to it. Ah and also their hypocrite fans who bash Ferrari, but are kissin RD's backside when they use team orders!

They must have put something in your coffee!

[ArrowsFA1]

I Think this sort of "agreements" are pretty crappy, makes the sport really look like a business...
I agree, but the reality is that it is more business than sport.

[Big Ben]

dear Ioan,


You did start after the Monaco GP a thread about how FA being favored over LH and now another one where you take JPM´s words as a proof that McLaren always has a nº1 driver, in this case the favored one being LH.
Isn´t the fact that you can´t make up your mind who this nº 1 is just another proof that both are treated equally?
No answer needed... I know you can´t accept this inconvenient truth. When it comes to ethics McLaren is a model for Ferrari.

PS In 2005 JPM was the only one to blame for being nº 2. You can´t expect to be nº 1 when you start your season in May!

[Flat.tyres]

dear Ioan,


You did start after the Monaco GP a thread about how FA being favored over LH and now another one where you take JPM´s words as a proof that McLaren always has a nº1 driver, in this case the favored one being LH.
Isn´t the fact that you can´t make up your mind who this nº 1 is just another proof that both are treated equally?
No answer needed... I know you can´t accept this inconvenient truth. When it comes to ethics McLaren is a model for Ferrari.

PS In 2005 JPM was the only one to blame for being nº 2. You can´t expect to be nº 1 when you start your season in May!

There are a few level headed fans of Motor Sport in here that understand the mascinations of the sport after all :up: I enjoy your posts.

its so easy to read the latest headline and quote journospeak like gospel but nice to know some people take a more reasoned approach.

[Ian McC]

If some of you guys would be able to judge things objectively for a moment you would see that McLaren aren't the angels compared to Ferrari. But after many years spent on this forum I know that I can't expect that from most of our British members.

Seriously, I don't see how you can go on about being objective :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Seriously, I don't see how you can go on about being objective :rolleyes:

You felt concerned about my point? Very well, it just means I did it the right way! :D

[raphael123]

I agree, but the reality is that it is more business than sport.

I'd say the Saturday and Sunday afternoon is more sport than business. The rest though is definately more business than sport.

[raphael123]

Yeah, sure.
I mean is there a F1 driver who is idiot enough to accept that his race is over at the first turn?

It was team orders, as those issued by Ferrari and other teams. What bothers me is that they don't have the balls to publicly own up to it. Ah and also their hypocrite fans who bash Ferrari, but are kissin RD's backside when they use team orders!

They must have put something in your coffee!

It wasn't a team order. It was a driver agreement. Mika and David came to that conclusion themselves.

I'm not saying it was right, or correct, but it was nothing in comparison to what Ferrari and Schumacher were doing. Your dedication to a retired F1 driver seems to blind you.

[Ian McC]

You felt concerned about my point? Very well, it just means I did it the right way! :D

Really didn't think you could get away with accusing others of being unable to be objective.

[ioan]

Really didn't think you could get away with accusing others of being unable to be objective.

Why not? I'm being accused the same thing by the others!

[555-04Q2]

Every team has a #1 and a #2 driver. That will not change.

[janneppi]

Every team has a #1 and a #2 driver. That will not change.
I'm curios, how would you define the difference how team acts between #1 and #2 drivers?

Is it who get's the fork and knives first at lunch?
Is it the one who get's new parts first?
is it the one doesn't have to use all his good tyres before race to find setup?
Is it the one who has a team mate slowing down his opponents to allow #1 get ahead?

[F1MAN2007]

I'm curios, how would you define the difference how team acts between #1 and #2 drivers?

The difference is that the #1 is the one who takes his lunch and breakfast on tuesday in the team's canteen with all mechanics!!! :laugh:

[ioan]

I'm curios, how would you define the difference how team acts between #1 and #2 drivers?

Is it the one who has a team mate slowing down his opponents to allow #1 get ahead?

This is nonsense! He would have to be ahead already to make this happen, so what's the logic in needing help when you are already faster and ahead???

[janneppi]

This is nonsense! He would have to be ahead already to make this happen, so what's the logic in needing help when you are already faster and ahead???
I don't know, protecting leaders gap if something happens in the pits comes to mind.
Imagine the top three are somewhat similar in race speeds with two green cars in front and a purple in third with maybe bit more fuel, If the second green car slows down enough in places where passing is impossible giving maybe two tenths per lap room to the leader, after twenty laps, that's four seconds worth of buffer.

[wmcot]

I'm not sure how much JPM knows about being Number 1, but he often drove like "Number 2" :)

[IndianChiefJoy]

In Williams all the germans from BMW wanted his german driver (Ralf) to win, no matter how. Them and more than a half of the Williams team (including a tech guy like Sam Michael and others) were in Ralf's side, and aware that a german driver with a german engine was more marketeable and attracted more sponsors than a colombian in a Brit team. Only sir Frank Williams was in Montoya's side. In the end he proved he was better than Ralf, even if the initial results were not the best.

In Mc Laren, after Montoya broke his shoulder in that never well explained tennis accident, he was treated like trash. Canada 05, the first time Juan was better than Kimi after Juan's accident, was only something that accelerated the things: Montoya had to give way to Raikkonen in the GP's the finn was behind Juan (like Spa and Turkey). But, again, I guess that Kimi can bring more sponsors.

Regarding Alonso and Hamilton, the spaniard brang Santander with him, he's very well backed, but I think that a younger brit, can have more appeal than Alonso for the brit sponsors.

[leopard]

Agree on the most theory about JPM, he was in my opinion on skill-wise to be fairly, not by far, better than his teammate either at BMW or McLaren. In case of the team threated him equal or focusing more on him, he actually the strongest contender on 2003 title after Schumi.
Sponsorship, support, and nationality, has prevented him from being the number one driver, and oftentimes had to give way his place to the teammate.

His accident on unwell explained tennis (actually I doubt that accident was from playing tennis, but more because of his another interest riding bike dirty track), was a nadir point of his career in F1 and left people with question mark about his seriousness driving F1 car.

Regarding Alonso vs Hamilton, it was obvious that the first and main plan of McLaren was falling on Alonso, but along with the time goes by, Hamilton deserves more support besides the reason where he is from, but his talent apparently in much cases more proven and consistent.

[Valve Bounce]

Regarding Alonso and Hamilton, the spaniard brang Santander with him, he's very well backed, but I think that a younger brit, can have more appeal than Alonso for the brit sponsors.


Well, the guy is probably in line for an MBE already (seeing that he did more than Collingwood in the previous Ashes series) and if he won at Silverstone, he'd probably get a knighthood and the keys to London Town. The boost to the tourism industry would be immeasurable. :rolleyes:

And I need him to win for my pickems ;)

[555-04Q2]

I'm curios, how would you define the difference how team acts between #1 and #2 drivers?

Is it who get's the fork and knives first at lunch?
Is it the one who get's new parts first?
is it the one doesn't have to use all his good tyres before race to find setup?
Is it the one who has a team mate slowing down his opponents to allow #1 get ahead?

No. The #1 driver gets the better looking of the pit girls ;)

[Valve Bounce]

No. The #1 driver gets the better looking of the pit girls ;)


:up:

[ioan]

No. The #1 driver gets the better looking of the pit girls ;)

They also have pit girls?! :eek: :D

[Garry Walker]

In Williams all the germans from BMW wanted his german driver (Ralf) to win, no matter how. Them and more than a half of the Williams team (including a tech guy like Sam Michael and others) were in Ralf's side, and aware that a german driver with a german engine was more marketeable and attracted more sponsors than a colombian in a Brit team. Only sir Frank Williams was in Montoya's side. In the end he proved he was better than Ralf, even if the initial results were not the best.

In Mc Laren, after Montoya broke his shoulder in that never well explained tennis accident, he was treated like trash. Canada 05, the first time Juan was better than Kimi after Juan's accident, was only something that accelerated the things: Montoya had to give way to Raikkonen in the GP's the finn was behind Juan (like Spa and Turkey). But, again, I guess that Kimi can bring more sponsors.


my god, how do people come up with trash like this?

oftentimes had to give way his place to the teammate.

Often? I am sure you will be able to give me examples of that.


It wasn't a team order. It was a driver agreement. Mika and David came to that conclusion themselves.


Except I direct you to my earlier post in this thread - It wasnt drivers agreement, it was pure teamorder. Words by Ron Dennis himself.

[ArrowsFA1]

Except I direct you to my earlier post in this thread - It wasnt drivers agreement, it was pure teamorder. Words by Ron Dennis himself.
Once again, there were two distinct aspects to that Australian GP. The pre-race agreement between the two drivers, then Mika's 'phantom' pitstop that led to McLaren asking DC to let Mika back through. It was the latter that Ron Dennis described as a team order, not the former.

[fasttrakker55]

who cares about juan pablo...he came into F1 make some risky overtaking moves that made him popular, screwed up mclarens chances of championship and left the sport.

[ioan]

Once again, there were two distinct aspects to that Australian GP. The pre-race agreement between the two drivers, then Mika's 'phantom' pitstop that led to McLaren asking DC to let Mika back through. It was the latter that Ron Dennis described as a team order, not the former.

Yeah, sure!
There was no 2 distinctive nothing, they just didn't have the time to agree on which lie the will have to tell before they got interviewed.

And in Canada 2005 there were 3 or 4 distinct aspects, one for each driver and team member interviewed! :rolleyes:

McLaren and RD are no angels, no matter what you like to believe.

[ioan]

who cares about juan pablo...he came into F1 make some risky overtaking moves that made him popular, screwed up mclarens chances of championship and left the sport.

Well, I actually care for him, especially for that McLaren screwing part! :laugh:

[ArrowsFA1]

Yeah, sure!
Yes. Sure. :cool:

[ioan]

Yes. Sure. :cool:

Glad you finally agree with me! :p :

[fasttrakker55]

Well, I actually care for him, especially for that McLaren screwing part! :laugh:

Spoken like a true Ferrari fan. ;)

[ioan]

Spoken like a true Ferrari fan. ;)

Won't deny it! :D