When is the IRL slated to go to a new chassis? [Archive]

tbyars

20th December 2006, 07:42

It will most likely go out for bid, for legal reasons. Of course - that doesn't mean that the RFP can't be wired. Happens all the time.

Starter, I don't think there is any legal requirement than a private entity put something our for bid. The league could simply decide on one or more chassis suppliers and ask them to design according to a set of specs. Or, they could do what they have done in the past, just put out a series of specs, ask for designs for approval, then select one to three as approved chassis suppliers.

But there is no reason to put the process out for bid in the traditional sense, and certainly no legal requirement to do so.

Jonesi

20th December 2006, 10:51

I believe 2008 will be the new chassis year.

I couldn't remember if it was '08 or '09. If it's '08 that means they have to start the process soon, and announce around Indy.

MarcoCheever

20th December 2006, 12:20

not for sure when but I think we've seen it a few threads up

weeflyonthewall

20th December 2006, 19:06

Does anyone know when or if the IRL is slated to go to a new chassis?

Rumor has it they like the Lola that CC turned down. With a Honda Turbo?

20th December 2006, 21:31

I bet Lola like the look of the IRL too. Their markets have been taken off them in the last few years with Panoz in at ChampCar and Dallara in GP2.

pits4me

20th December 2006, 22:52

I bet Lola like the look of the IRL too. Their markets have been taken off them in the last few years with Panoz in at ChampCar and Dallara in GP2.

A new IRL chassis that happens to meet CC specs with a Honda Turbo powerplant. Let's get ready for the merger speculators.

CCFan

22nd December 2006, 01:38

Rumor has it they like the Lola that CC turned down. With a Honda Turbo?

Remember that CC went with Panoz due to the lower cost compared to the Lola (which BTW I also liked the Lola chassis better). I wonder if they would go with the Lola even though it costs more?

Alexamateo

22nd December 2006, 04:49

Remember that CC went with Panoz due to the lower cost compared to the Lola (which BTW I also liked the Lola chassis better). I wonder if they would go with the Lola even though it costs more?

It may not cost more. They didn't get the bid for ChampCar and Tamburello mentioned losing out in GP2. They may be hungrier and willing to work on a lower gross margin %.

ZzZzZz

22nd December 2006, 06:05

As we saw with the Panoz, costs are coming down on these technologies. With a couple years elapsed, Lola may be able to shave off a significant portion of their costs.

As an aside, I heard someone on the radio (NPR) talking about how carbon fiber is likely to begin appearring in mainstream production vehicles in the relatively near future. His group has figured out how to implement it into production in a way that it will drastically reduce production costs (and introduced that technology to the public domain). This will also greatly reduce vehicle weight and that fuel useage. (Sorry, i didn't catch his name.)

Mark in Oshawa

22nd December 2006, 16:49

I think if they go to Panoz, then the merger talk will be deafening. The new DP 01 is a good looking race car, so aesthetically, it would be a step up over the current IRL car, but I don't know if it has an oval package. I suspect it does, but CCWS doesn't seem to be into the oval thing right now (I think it is an error but Iam just a fan, what do I know?). That said, I am sure it can run ovals with a few changes and maybe the IRL would buy a DP-01a? If they don't go to Panoz, the Lola might work, or maybe Dallara will have a new design to put out there? There is nothing to stop the IRL from buying anything as the spec car, but I think no matter what they do, they better make the right decision. The wrong car could hurt the series...

Jag_Warrior

24th December 2006, 00:12

Jonesi

24th December 2006, 00:40

Did anyone here see the pictures of the Panoz open wheeler with the airbox? It had been ripped off the WRX site by the time I went there (and the Elan Motorsports employee run through with a bayonet?), but apparently it looked very much like a DP01 with an airbox.

Things that make you go, Hmmmmm........

They were on the Panoz DP-01 thread at
http://www.rallyforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113180
but they seem to be gone now. Gotta be quick ;-)
Could be a proposal for IRL, but could also be A1GP, GP2, or even Grand Prix Masters.

Jag_Warrior

24th December 2006, 01:29

Yeah, that's the one. It was originally on the WRX Atlanta site: http://www.wrxatlanta.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10854

Looks like the entire thread has now been removed. Several have said that the poster was fired from Panoz for posting that picture. It was a fairly stupid thing to do (and to have his name on the PhotoBucket picture), but I really hope he wasn't fired.

DRC

25th December 2006, 15:47

...but I don't know if it has an oval package. I suspect it does, but CCWS doesn't seem to be into the oval thing right now (I think it is an error but Iam just a fan, what do I know?).

Remember the DP01 was in development when CC was still running ovals. And while CC is out of ovals this season, they haven't given up on ovals completely. With that in mind, I have to believe there is an "oval package" for the DP01.

So is it with optimism or pessimism that we all speculate that the IRL could adopt the DP01?

ZzZzZz

26th December 2006, 04:15

So is it with optimism or pessimism that we all speculate that the IRL could adopt the DP01?

Common sense (aka far-fetched optimism).

Jag_Warrior

26th December 2006, 20:10

Common sense (aka far-fetched optimism).

Well put. Yeah, in this sport, "common sense" is an oxymoron.

philipbain

28th December 2006, 11:28

I personally think that as far as IRL getting a new chassis is concerned it will greatly depend on the health of the series, if grids are diminishing (as they seem to be currently) then a new chassis is the last thing they need as it just increases costs and as all the teams are now running Dallaras with Honda engines there is parity across the field, largely rendering a new chassis unnessarcery and with less cars in the field there will be a surplus supply of used chassis, which decreases costs.

indycool

28th December 2006, 13:45

Chris R

28th December 2006, 14:08

FWIW - I jsut finished reading Dr. Steve Olvey's book and toward the end he mentions being contracted to help work on safety design issues for the new IRL car "due in 2007". So, if that is/was true at the time then I am guessing all bets are off for the time being...

Also, FWIW, I seem to remember Kalkhoven (or someone at champcar) making abig deal about the DP-01 being "oval ready" - whatever that means - so my best guess is that all it needs is a oval aero and suspension package and it is ready to go (only a guess)...

I kind of doubt that picture is of a proposed IRL car - the last thing either series is going to want if they are not going to merge is something to make them even less distinct... However, running both engines with some sort of equivalency formula would be a pretty interesting scenario for either/both /combined series.....

Last but not least - given the current state of AOWR - I don't think the IRL is under any big pressure to get a new car - CART/champcar proved you can get away with the same design for quite a while in a "spec" series - so why change if it is not necesary???

indycool

29th December 2006, 14:19

Chris, my point is, why would Panoz be spekking out an oval kit for the DP-01 when there are no ovals on the schedule and no one knows how it would work without some testing, anyway?

Chris R

29th December 2006, 16:05

Chris, my point is, why would Panoz be spekking out an oval kit for the DP-01 when there are no ovals on the schedule and no one knows how it would work without some testing, anyway?

I agree - makes no sense to have an oval kit for 2007 and without ovals on the schedule... but perhaps the chassis is strong/safe enough for ovals??? I am guessing that is what they were referring to - as long as the tub is set up to deal with the stresses of oval racing a kit can follow in due course after appropriate design/testing etc. if necessary (as opposed to an F-1 car which might never be made acceptable on ovals due to fundamental design choices....)

indycool

29th December 2006, 16:07

We may know. We may never know.

Mark in Oshawa

29th December 2006, 19:33

IC, I think the DP 01 could be easily converted for ovals for one reason. KK wouldn't have the car not meet a minimal safety standard that could take a hit on ovals. The aero parts to run on an oval is just extra time and money that could be spent to adapt the car for ovals. They may not have an "oval package" but you know as well as I do that KK isn't going to invest all this money in a new chassis and not keep his options open. He knows that the IRL may need a new car some day, and he also knows that he doesn't want to slam the door shut on ovals if the market changes. A prudent business man thinks ahead, and KK is nothing but prudent....

Mark in Oshawa

29th December 2006, 19:34

Also, KK has been the one who has been open to merger talks, so he would also have that in the back of his mind when he asked Elan/Panoz to build a CCWS car.

DRC

29th December 2006, 23:50

As far as the DP-01 goes, I doubt if anybody knows the extent necessary to put an oval kit on one or if one would work on ovals anyway. That wasn't the mission for it. It was built as a road-racing car for a road-racing series. When they're just delivering it for the road-racing series, converting it for ovals must be WAY down the road in any such thinking, IMO.

I just read on the CC forum that a CC tech said the DP01 does have an oval package as part of the design.

I don't agree with your argument that CC would develop a chassis for street racing only. Why would they not design it with an oval package? If things "come together" down the road, CC would be shooting itself in the foot by not having a chassis that is capable of running ovals. I fail to see KK and Co. being that short sighted. Besides, I also don't agre that CC is giving up on ovals.

tbyars

30th December 2006, 00:44

I just read on the CC forum that a CC tech said the DP01 does have an oval package as part of the design.

I don't agree with your argument that CC would develop a chassis for street racing only. Why would they not design it with an oval package? If things "come together" down the road, CC would be shooting itself in the foot by not having a chassis that is capable of running ovals. I fail to see KK and Co. being that short sighted. Besides, I also don't agre that CC is giving up on ovals.

Doug, both CC and Panoz officials have said publicly and openly that no oval package currently exists for the DP-01, although one could be developed at a later date if necessary. And note that the post on the CC forum was very much second hand. An "I heard he said" kind of thing.

An oval package is worthless until it is tested, and tested in traffic, anyway. Until then it's just another developmental kit even if it does exist. And I am quite sure an oval kit has NOT been tested, or that would have been big news.

Mark in Oshawa

31st December 2006, 06:25

Oval wings and some mods are NOT rocket science people. The engineers that design race cars know all about what they are doing, and an oval just demands less downforce to make the racing interesting on ovals and force drivers to lay off the throttle instead of going flat out. That is something the IRL cars need to look at right now. I find most of their cookie cutter oval races are pretty much flat to the floor exercises, and that isn't racing people. That is just playing around in the draft like a NASCAR superspeedway event. IT is fun once in a while, but when half your races are packs, it just is a dangerous way to make a living, and I find it often dull after a while. The best races are on flat ovals... like Indy.

pits4me

31st December 2006, 21:40

Chris, my point is, why would Panoz be spekking out an oval kit for the DP-01 when there are no ovals on the schedule and no one knows how it would work without some testing, anyway?

Did you forget the original specification for the DP01 included addressing oval safety concerns. Remember the big debate how the DP01 could have been lighter and nimbler if it were a purpose designed road racer? There was even talk about adding more horse power to the new Cosworth engine.

Champ Car elected to incorporate oval-specific design requirements since ovals are still part of their forecasted future. If TG ever gets his head out of the sand, you never know what technology becomes common ground. The mere fact CC has at least one chassis positioned to fit the need of both series bodes well for the furture of open wheel in North America.

The most sensible approach for the IRL would be to develop a 2nd choice along the lines of the Lola. Hopefully they will set-up shop in the US so they can keep the costs down. The UK£ is killing the US$ right now in currency exchange.

weeflyonthewall

31st December 2006, 21:53

All you have to do is look at the new tubs to know they are oval safe and oval ready. The oval package may not be available but you can bet they've been tested via CAE simulation just like they do in aerospace and Formula 1.

indycool

31st December 2006, 23:12

Guess if it ever gets necessary, we'll find out.

grungex

2nd January 2007, 05:43

I have never heard or read anything about the IRL getting or NOT getting a new chassis at any specific point. The current chassis has been updated several times through the years. I read a Barnhart quote saying the IRL was comfortable with the current chassis and an update kit was not necessary for '06.....haven't heard if anything is updated for '07.

As far as the DP-01 goes, I doubt if anybody knows the extent necessary to put an oval kit on one or if one would work on ovals anyway. That wasn't the mission for it. It was built as a road-racing car for a road-racing series. When they're just delivering it for the road-racing series, converting it for ovals must be WAY down the road in any such thinking, IMO.

Pure double speak and nonsense. The IRL chassis was updated in an attempt to keep it from flying, and then it was updated (at huge expense) to enable it to go road racing. It is now a year overdue for replacement.

There is absolutely nothing about the DP-01 that would make it unsuitable for oval racing, except the wishful thinking of the IRL fans that wish it, and Champ Car, would go away.

indycool

2nd January 2007, 13:39

IYO.

grungex

2nd January 2007, 15:23

Not at all. Despite all of the actual facts regarding the design of the DP-01, you and your ilk insist on trying to portray it as somehow unsuitable for ovals, without a scintilla of evidence to support such claims.

ZzZzZz

2nd January 2007, 19:43

And it is true that the IRL had originally planned to have a new chassis for '06. You know that, IC.

indycool

2nd January 2007, 20:31

Yes, Zzs, you're right. They did. Think it was the ongoing development of the car for road course kit and safety features plus cost, that probably they made an "ain't-broke-don't-fix-it" call.

weeflyonthewall

2nd January 2007, 22:48

We can be sure team owners weighed in with their opinions. Wasn't it IC that suggested CC team owners were taking a big risk investing in new chassis' when the series was on life support? I think that applies to anyone in US open wheel these days no matter where you place your allegiance.

Giuseppe F1

2nd January 2007, 23:26

Is this (see attachment) the car everyone is talking about?

Jonesi

3rd January 2007, 00:03

Is this (see attachment) the car everyone is talking about?

Yes that's the one, that is for "race series unknown" ;-)

(Now we see how long the photo stays there.)

Giuseppe F1

3rd January 2007, 23:47

Is this (see attachment) the car everyone is talking about?

Is this definately even a Panoz chassis? The logos on the mechanics shirts dont look like Panoz logos....although maybe they are

isnt this supposedly the chassis update for the f3000 italia series??

Mark in Oshawa

4th January 2007, 20:46

It looks like a Champ Car with an Air box to me, but hey, who really knows? I can say if everyone was taking the pics off the net as fast as they were posting, I suspect where there is smoke, there is fire.

If the IRL is going to go to a new chassis, they will no doubt talk to Panoz. I suspect though that they will avoid this new car like the plague to avoid merger talk. Tony has not wanted to talk merger even consider common rules. He will talk to KK, and they will bat ideas around, but I suspect that until he has decided he has had enough of losing money, he wont talk merger.

If they do NOT go with Panoz for next year, then they will likely get Dallara or Lola for the next chassis. Maybe both. I just hope they go for a more visually appealing car. Of course, some weird part of me would love to see a Front engined roadster for the new century in the IRL. That would end all talk of the difference between the two series now wouldn't it??? Ok, maybe it is a loopy idea, but hey, I put it out there to find out how many rotten tomatoes can be tossed my way!

indycool

4th January 2007, 22:15

Mark, I don't know if it's a "loopy" idea or not, but it's a fun fantasy. From a personal standpoint, those all-different, powerful, chromed-up, some side-engined-for-ovals California supermodifieds are the prettiest race cars in the U.S.

DRC

4th January 2007, 22:20

I'd still like to see a modern take on the ol' "sausage" formula cars...completely wingless...clean and simple design. You wouldn't get "foot to the floor all the way 'round" racing then! :P

Mark in Oshawa

5th January 2007, 07:39

DRC, THAT is exactly the kind of Roadster that I would love to see. A modern take on the roadster, with very limited wings. Supermods would be fun in a sense, but they are just too radical. An elongated Sprint car with very limited tires would be an interesting take on a classic race would it not? Right now, you have cars that are essentially f1 style in their layout, and to the average guy on the street, he doesn't get the difference. Champ Car, IRL, F1, they all look the same to a non-race fan. Give the IRL an unique style of race car, and they can then have the field to themselves. Also, by having front engined big HP cars, you have another place for Sprint car drivers to go besides NASCAR. Of course, TG wouldn't listen to me on this, he didn't listen to a guy as smart and outspoken as Brock Yates on this years ago, so he wont listen to the likes of some goofball Canadian guy....

Quetch

8th January 2007, 21:32

Mark in Oshawa

8th January 2007, 21:54

This is an illustration to the Racer article in which Brock Yates proposed the modern Indy roadster back in 96.

Can you imagine the appeal of cars like THAT racing on ovals? Just enough downforce to keep them on the ground, no aero that would cause the car to leave the ground if the car spins, full bodywork, motors enclosed. If TG had THIS car as his vision, I would have signed on. Instead, he bought up old CART cars and tried to tell us he had a better idea. It was to me, a fatal error. The only reason the IRL is alive today is because he has spent a small fortune keeping it alive. If he had taken them in a fresh direction and marketed it as a truly American series (what is more American than a front engined roadster? A Dallara isnt) then he would have gained the drivers he was supposed to be keeping a home for, the sprint and midget drivers. Those gents might have seen these cars as something they could work with. They sure as heck didn't see a car they could handle in CART cars and the later IRL cars, and they went to NASCAR.

DRC

8th January 2007, 22:17

I still like the mid-engined sausages...and no wings at all. Big rubber, fine. Sidepods even...for safety, etc. OK, maybe it'll look like a bloated sausage, but I still think it would be cool.

Geez, I am a designer, you'd think I could draw one up...

DRC

8th January 2007, 22:23

This is what I'm lovin'...

DRC

8th January 2007, 22:23

Another...

indycool

8th January 2007, 22:31

Oh man, Quetch, I LIKE that car! :)

Jonesi

9th January 2007, 00:20

Oh man, Quetch, I LIKE that car! :)

Is anyone else noticing that the engine is positioned between the driver's legs?

Jonesi

9th January 2007, 00:24

Is this definately even a Panoz chassis? The logos on the mechanics shirts dont look like Panoz logos....although maybe they are

isnt this supposedly the chassis update for the f3000 italia series??
Almost certainly. The walls, and floor match the room that all the black DP-01s were taken in and the mechanics shirts match too.

grassrootsracer

9th January 2007, 03:20

Yes, that is Elan/Panoz. They are supposedly working on a European single seater chassis.

luvracin

9th January 2007, 20:03

Is anyone else noticing that the engine is positioned between the driver's legs?

Yes. I noticed it first time I saw it. To package, you'd need to have the driver sitting where the rear wing is.

But ignoring that. The engine is still centrally located compared to the old roadsters so the handling will still be closer to the current cars than the old roadsters that everyone seems to think is what would be best for "traditional" oval racing.

Mark in Oshawa

10th January 2007, 05:35

If the car never raced on anything but an oval ( Remember that was the whole mantra of the early EARL) then a roadster with some length to it for safety would be not a problem.

Hey, Panoz built a front engined sports prototype not once but twice, with middling results, but the safety and layout all were proven. If you depend on more mechanical grip than downforce, then you could have a great front engined oval car.

I have always thought the 50's roadsters some of the most aesthetically pleasing race cars going.

IC, supermods are not beautiful to me, but they are fun. I find though they look too much like a short track freak show. No, a Modern day incarnation of an Indy roadster would have to have sleek lines and some thought given to some style. Lets face it, if you take away the making downforce ability, speed down the straights and mechanical grip in the corners will make a place like Indy a real challenge.

indycool

10th January 2007, 15:21

Quetch

10th January 2007, 18:43

Those Panoz front-engined roadsters were cool cars, and they were also fast. I liked those '50 roadsters with the low tails, too.

Some Indy car designs have come from supermodifieds. One that jumps out is the old "Oswego Wedge," which several guys, among them Bud Tingelstad, drove at Indy. Think that was the first time that anyone thought about "aero" to any degree.

I still remember some fine trips to Delaware and Oswego, Mark! :) :)

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/panozlmp1-9.html
http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~jdavies/sportscars/plm2k/050_panoz2_001_20.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/2002/Le_Mans-2002-06-16-022.jpg

Mark in Oshawa

11th January 2007, 06:36

IC, you have been to Oswego? I can almost spit across the lake to that burg from here, ( well not quite, but it is but 3 to 4 hours AROUND the lake for me, and yet I haven't made it yet. Seen lots of pics of it, know lots of guys who go, but I see the SuperMod's when they have ran at Mosport's 1/2 mile oval a few years back and they also run at Kawartha Downs, just 40 minutes up the highway from me.....

indycool

11th January 2007, 12:23

I'm dating myself bigtime with this, but watched Bentley Warren win the International 500 at Oswego one year......some of the regulars were from Canada --- I remember Norm Mackereth, for one, and were Nolan Swift or Jim Shampine from up your way?

Mark in Oshawa

11th January 2007, 20:02

Mackerath I have heard of, don't know Swift or Shampine. I know there are few guys who make the trek to Oswego. The Canadian dates have been hit and miss, mainly miss. They wont run Mosport's oval any more because the straights are too long and the corners are too tight, sort of a bumpy Martinsville layout with more banking. They were running about 140 and hammering the brakes to get in the corner, and it just wasn't a good circuit for em.

I suspect only about 3 or 4 steady runners at Oswego are Canadians. Our short track scene in Ontario is so busy that most guys just end up going to whatever short track is near and running the stock car circuits there. That said, there is a few dirt tracks up here running DIRT mod's and outlaws as well....

indycool

11th January 2007, 22:36

Well, as I said, I dated myself! Swift, I'm sure was from Canada. Shampine, driving his well-known "8-ball," I believe was from upstate New York somewhere.

Back in the late '60s and '70s, the big supermod tracks were Oswego; Sandusky, Ohio; and Delaware out near London. Sandusky was a "paper clip", too. Some ran the dirt at Owosso, Mich., where Paige Reynolds from Houston broke the so-called world half-mile record time in a supermod that Sonny Ates set in a sprint car at Dayton. (This is '60s stuff.)

The Michigan contingent included Gordon and Nolan Johncock (the latter of which was killed in a '70s supermod crash) and Johnny Logan.

Too much off topic, but in "modern" times, Davey Hamilton and Paul Durant came out of the west coast supers (after Tom Sneva and Art Pollard did before them) and Joe Gosek came from Oswego to make the Indianapolis 500 field in the '90s.

Okeefe

12th January 2007, 21:58

I've watched a history of Indy500 DVD recently which showed the differences over the years of these cars.
I don't think I'd have the guts to race a brand new one until I saw how it performed for a season while someone else raced it first. It must take alot of faith to jump in one right hot off the assembly line in its first year of racing, I'd think. Guess I'm not so tough after all......because that'd scare the liver out of me.

Mark in Oshawa

13th January 2007, 23:54

O'keefe, if you think those cars are scary, you are just normal and well adjusted!!!!

The SuperMods that IC and I are referring to are the last manifestation of the kind of race cars the old roadsters evolved into. Offset monsters with stock blocks on the left side and huge wings. They are one of a kind kind of racers, and in a sense, represent a lost thread of racing.

As much as the modern IRL is a clone of every other open wheeled series now, there is much to be said about having a unique series based on the roots cars of USAC, evolving designs based off the sprint car and then allowing creativity....

codalunga

14th January 2007, 17:07

Doug, both CC and Panoz officials have said publicly and openly that no oval package currently exists for the DP-01, although one could be developed at a later date if necessary. And note that the post on the CC forum was very much second hand. An "I heard he said" kind of thing.

An oval package is worthless until it is tested, and tested in traffic, anyway. Until then it's just another developmental kit even if it does exist. And I am quite sure an oval kit has NOT been tested, or that would have been big news.

It doesn't exist as in current hardware, but that is a minor point. All the cars and replacement parts for late season haven't been built yet either. They are going to know when a oval in in the works long before we do so they will do a good job.

The CC guy who coordinated the program with Panoz said at the Road America fan forum that the DP01 was absolutely designed with ovals in mind and a oval package "was designed" and would be built if the need arises. I noticed right off the DP01 has all the expensive electronics in the left sidepod, standard oval proceedure since the "comeback" Lola of the late 90s.

One could can a say anything is worthless until tested. They have plenty of oval knowledge with ovals and experience with modern fluid dynamic flow software they can quickly be in the ballpark.

indycool

14th January 2007, 20:29

Well, to start with, are there fuel buckeyes on both sides of the car?

T-D

15th January 2007, 11:26

Yes, Zzs, you're right. They did. Think it was the ongoing development of the car for road course kit and safety features plus cost, that probably they made an "ain't-broke-don't-fix-it" call.
spin. the series called for 3 year replacements when they were flush with manufacturer cash, now that cash is gone and they are racing relatively old equipment.

grungex

15th January 2007, 16:48

Yes, Zzs, you're right. They did. Think it was the ongoing development of the car for road course kit and safety features plus cost, that probably they made an "ain't-broke-don't-fix-it" call.
Wow, that's pretty funny. How about "they spent so much trying to make it road course worthy they could have almost bought a new car, and now nobody can afford one"?

indycool

15th January 2007, 19:39

Didn't happen that way. In fact, the road-course kit wasn't that cost-prohibitive.

grungex

15th January 2007, 22:16

Didn't happen that way. In fact, the road-course kit wasn't that cost-prohibitive.

Yes, we've all heard the official party line ad nauseaum. The actual truth, however, is far different.

indycool

16th January 2007, 01:12

Well, you can add an "IMO" to that.

grungex

16th January 2007, 07:23

Or I could be accurate and add an "I heard it from very reliable industry sources". The party line is fluff and spin, as you doubtless well know.

Mark in Oshawa

17th January 2007, 08:51

Well, to start with, are there fuel buckeyes on both sides of the car?

How hard it would be to retro fit if there wasn't? Also note, a lot of circuits on the road course side can have right or left side pits, so I would imagine that regardless of Oval aspirations or not, they should have buckeyes on both sides. Please IC, don't go down the road of saying the DP01 is unsuitable for ovals. Only an idiot would design a race car for the North American market and not have plans and the DNA in the design to go oval racing.....

I know you want to stand on the ground that this car isn't right, but any car is right if people want to make the effort. The DP01 is going to be the CCWS car for the next 5 years, and I would be shocked if it never saw an oval. Now if the IRL buys their own design; that is their prerogative and their right, and as I said, I would have preferred the IRL have taken a radically different road in 1995. That said, if they refused the DP01 only because CCWS is using it, and that reason alone, then it is obvious they are scared of their teams having too easy a time leaving the IRL once Indy was over. The thing is if you believe you have the best series and package....then what are you afraid of??? Really? I can tell you this much. If the IRL went to Panoz and CCWS blocked the sale of DP01's, then it proves that the CCWS is scared of cross pollination. The teams will go back and forth until one series dies and that is the real issue. The thing is, all the teams are pawns in this game....and until it ends, we will have endless arguments on here about who should have what car and whether it can be made to turn left all day....

I would rather talk about racing...

indycool

17th January 2007, 12:20

Mark, I don't know how hard it would be to retrofit a buckeye on the opposite side of the car....I'm no fabricator or engineer, nor do I know how the fuel tank is set in there, nor do I know how it would affect the fuel cell.

I DO know that the IRL, when it commissioned new cars, long before the IRL even was talking to anybody about a road race, commissioned the cars with buckeyes on both sides to start with....one less thing to retrofit "if come."

As you suggest, I won't go "down the road" of unsuitable for ovals. In its current form, it probably IS unsuitable for ovals. The truth is, no one probably knows because there is no "oval kit" for it even to be tested at this point.

grungex

17th January 2007, 16:47

Simply staggering. Is this the best you can do? Of course it has buckeyes on both sides. Do you think the pits are always on the same side? Heck, San Jose alone has had the pits on both sides.

indycool

17th January 2007, 16:54

You could've answered my question in Post #70, but I guess you had to play CW first.

grungex

17th January 2007, 17:05

Ooh, insults. My apologies, but I didn't notice #70 until Mark pointed it out. Perhaps if you put all of your misconceptions into one post it would be easier.

Speaking of "oval" packages, what exactly do you feel is necessary to make the DP-01 IRL-worthy? Given that the car was designed with ovals in mind and the IRL runs what amounts to a high-downforce roadcourse package at most events anyway, about the only addition needed is a speedway wing and a set of carbon rotors.

Okeefe

17th January 2007, 18:39

Why was the DP-01 designed with ovals in mind when CC has no more ovals?

I don't know mechanically or design-wise what it would need to race ovals, but I'd kinda like to see how it holds up in CC for a season first.

indycool

17th January 2007, 20:16

Like I said, nobody knows what's necessary to make it raceworthy on ovals. There is no kit. Because there is no kit, nothing has been put on to test it. There are plenty of surprises that CAD-CAM can't rectify. See Gordon Kirby's column on champcarworldseries.com about the hits and misses and fixes with the DP-01 for road courses.

grungex

17th January 2007, 23:26

So in other words, you don't actually have any evidence whatsoever to support your allegations that the DP-01 is not suitable for ovals, in spite of the actual fact that the manufacturer and the series specified and designed it to be oval capable. You also did not actually answer the question -- what would this so-called "kit" be comprised of? Just because the IRL Dallara and Panoz cars were NOT originally specified or designed to run on road courses, and had to have "kits" costing near $200k to remediate, does not mean that Champ Car and Panoz made the same mistake.

I did read Gordon Kirby's article, and it in no way does it support your negativity -- in fact it was extremely positive.

"Mechanically, I can't think of any changes we had to make," Marshall observed. "We had absolutely no issues with the suspension and steering, and the engine and turbo did absolutely what they should without any problems. Nor were there any surprises on the aero performance."

"During testing we changed some configuration of how the bodywork goes together to make it easier to put a sidepod on the car in the heat of a race weekend," Marshall commented. "As you know, they come on and off the car an awful lot during a race weekend.

"We changed some things a bit rudely in testing and then we came back and changed the molds so we could do it properly. In some detail like that, the production car will differ from the prototype."
The whole point of the testing was to make sure that issues with the car would be ironed out before delivery to the teams, unlike previous cars.

indycool

18th January 2007, 12:22

grungex

18th January 2007, 15:42

My allegation is that CC commissioned the car, CC is running all road and street circuits, as it sits there right now, nobody has made a kit to try to convert it to ovals, so nobody knows if it'll work or not.

In other words, you hope this is true, because otherwise the car is a threat to the status quo. It's a race car built by a company that has previously built race cars, including IRL race cars, so of course it will "work". You still haven't provided any clue as to what this "kit" might consist of. I can allege that you stopped beating your wife, and it would make just as much sense.

And please provide a link where the IRL road-course kits cost $200,000.
Since the league carefully put out the PR that it was much less (as you should know), we have only the word of industry folks, and they are not published.

Mark in Oshawa

18th January 2007, 22:47

IC, you cannot state that this car isn't oval capable. You are not at Panoz, and you have no idea of the specs and aspirations were of CCWS when they commisionned the building of this car. Lets put something in print right now. Panoz can answer your questions but common sense dictates that Champ Car would have an oval package option that isn't tested yet. Champ Car up till this year always had an oval in the series, so I would suspect they would keep their options open.

To demean this car as unsuitable is just to be obstinate for the sake of being that way. Panoz I am sure has an idea of what they would need to bring out an oval package and they likely have all the engineering ground work ready.

If the IRL wants the DP01, they will not have a problem with it on ovals I am sure. No more than they had problems with the Dallara's and G-Forces on Road courses. It isn't rocket science. Your argument of the fuel buckeyes is just a facetious attempt to justify this argument that the DP01 is flawed for oval purposes. The Buckeye can be on either side very easily, for the fuel cell location would be unchanged behind the driver. A different air box engine cowl is a mere redrawing of the plans and putting the buckeye on the other side and mounting the hose on the other side. We are not reinventing the wheel.

No, if the IRL doesn't buy the Dp-01, I would perfectly understand, but to say it is unsuitable would be a joke. The car has just been unveiled. The testing and set ups are being done to ready it for the Champ Car customers. I am sure Panoz has thought ahead. If the IRL goes elsewhere for a race car, it is for political reasons, not the suitablity of the DP-01. There is no evidence to suggest the car isn't capable of only turning left....

indycool

18th January 2007, 23:16

Mark, my point is, there is no evidence that says it can, either. It is obvious that the Dallara and Panoz IRL cars would need work to accommodate road racing. With long lead time, they did it with kits. All we get, among all the overdone hype of the DP-01 as being God's gift to the racing world, is statements it can run on ovals. When it tests a kit on an oval -- and I think that's a long ways away -- then I'll judge it.

grungex

18th January 2007, 23:47

One more time -- what would this "kit" consist of?

It's a lot harder to convert an oval-only car that was never designed to run on a road course than it is to convert a car that was designed and spec'd to do both from the start. You know it, but, as Mark so rightly pointed out, you are just being obstinate.

Mark in Oshawa

19th January 2007, 00:19

IC, turning left all day is pretty easy. The only changes to any race car would be to put wings or undertrays on it to take some downforce out. Like Grungex says, a car set up with a left offset is the car that needs the engineering, not a road course car....

wastegate

19th January 2007, 02:58

The DP01 could be made to IRL specs to run on ovals, it would take some redesign on some parts, e.g. there is no reason why the bare chassis and underwing could not run on an oval.

grungex

19th January 2007, 04:32

There's no real reason you couldn't run it as is on most ovals. Stick a spool in it and stagger the rear tires, done.

Mark in Oshawa

19th January 2007, 06:51

Grunge, you have pretty much put it in context. Take a bit of wing out to make things go faster in a straight line.....unless it is a flat oval, then dial in more wing....

ZzZzZz

20th January 2007, 02:59

[quote="indycool"]When it tests a kit on an oval -- and I think that's a long ways away -- then I'll judge it.[/QU

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

indycool

20th January 2007, 12:21

Zs, I'll correct it to this: I'll believe it when I see it. Okay?

tbyars

21st January 2007, 08:57

grungex

21st January 2007, 19:59

T-D

22nd January 2007, 00:10

hoop is knowledgeable but, thankfully he doesn't have god-like status on this forum that he has on crackforum.

Mark in Oshawa

22nd January 2007, 00:55

Grunge they don't want to accept it in the same way that most of em probably don't know that the current IRL cars were NOT designed to be used on road courses and had a lot of systems offest for oval duty that had to be redesigned. With Panoz being the people who did the g-force, they likely know damned well that that is a mistake they didn't want to make again, that is make a car for one type of racing. Both the Champ Car boys and IRL cars go left and right, but Champ Car up to last year also had an oval. You can bet they will race on an oval in the future. I doubt highly they would hem themselves in. It isn't logical, but of course, logic never had anything to do with this whole argument IMO.

Jag_Warrior

22nd January 2007, 02:21

hoop is knowledgeable but, thankfully he doesn't have god-like status on this forum that he has on crackforum.

So that's where he landed! Traded us in for T/F, eh? :dozey:

Mark in Oshawa

22nd January 2007, 09:23

I miss Hoop....he said some interesting stuff....

indycool

22nd January 2007, 15:20

Knowledgeable guy....and more important, he'd say if he DIDN'T know the answer and not fake it.

tbyars

23rd January 2007, 07:32

Yeah, I'm sure he's the only one that knows anything about the subject. Why is it so darn difficult for you folks to accept that the DP01 was designed with BOTH road and oval capabilities and safety considerations in mind?

Please reread my post.

I was not making a statement about the capability of the DP-01.

I was asking about your comment, made without any study so far, that it was/will be easier to convert the DP-01 to ovals than it was to convert the current IRL car to road specs.

I'm not sure that is a true statement. I'm not sure that it isn't.

Since NOTHING but the prototype has even been on the track yet, I'm just not so sure how you can make that statement.

Walker has already said some of the suspension parts on the DP-01 need some modification before they will be acceptable for the planned schedule this year, i.e. road courses. How much more modification will they need for a high speed oval where g-forces are much higher much more consistently? And that's just one area that may need study.

We don't yet know how the DP-01 will react in the dirty air traffic will bring. We sure don't know what aerodynamic changes well be required when a couple dozen cars are running together at 220 mph.

I didn't say the DP-01 wasn't capable. Just like putting the IRL cars on a road track, I have no doubts it can be done. I did question your claim that we know it will certainly be easier to convert the car to run effectlively on ovals.

I just don't think we know that yet.

grungex

24th January 2007, 05:51

My statement was NOT made "without any study so far", it was made based on logic, common sense, more knowledge than you evidently possess, and (more importantly) the undeniable FACT that numerous people who would know FAR better than you or even Hoop (you know, the actual DESIGNERS OF THE CAR) have stated repeatedly that the DP01 was designed with ovals in mind. All of your negative insinuations and bluster will do nothing to change that. The IRL car, OTOH, was NOT designed to run on road courses (another pesky FACT), and required a LOT of EXPENSIVE modification to do so.

wastegate

25th January 2007, 01:14

Please reread my post.

I was not making a statement about the capability of the DP-01.

I was asking about your comment, made without any study so far, that it was/will be easier to convert the DP-01 to ovals than it was to convert the current IRL car to road specs.

I'm not sure that is a true statement. I'm not sure that it isn't.

Since NOTHING but the prototype has even been on the track yet, I'm just not so sure how you can make that statement.

Walker has already said some of the suspension parts on the DP-01 need some modification before they will be acceptable for the planned schedule this year, i.e. road courses. How much more modification will they need for a high speed oval where g-forces are much higher much more consistently? And that's just one area that may need study.

We don't yet know how the DP-01 will react in the dirty air traffic will bring. We sure don't know what aerodynamic changes well be required when a couple dozen cars are running together at 220 mph.

I didn't say the DP-01 wasn't capable. Just like putting the IRL cars on a road track, I have no doubts it can be done. I did question your claim that we know it will certainly be easier to convert the car to run effectlively on ovals.

I just don't think we know that yet.

The suspension rockers need revising, (they are just a little thin in some areas), this isn't a big deal as its a machined part, and can be easily re-made.

Mark in Oshawa

25th January 2007, 09:16

Right now, the DP01 is being tested for weak points ( god knows Sebring will do that to any race car, that place is a motocross track in spots) and they will fix it. I am sure the oval packages are on the drawing board and ready to be fitted to a test car when the time comes.

Grunge is right, I remember the IRL cars were NOT originally specced to run road courses, and while they do a good job now, the original packages and parts didn't work that well. A Timing and Scoring friend told me that he heard when they first tested at Mid-Ohio, the IRL car was hard pressed to get close to the lap times of an Atlantic. We know now that the car is much improved for road course racing. IF Barnhardt asked Panoz tomorrow for an order 2 seasons for now for an IRL DP-01, Iam sure the car would be ready by the end of this year if not sooner...

With CAD, making changes and planning ahead for different rules is part of the design process, and as it was said, CC likely told Panoz that an Oval package had to be at least thought about.....

coolhand

1st February 2007, 22:58

The only problem that is of genuine concern down the road is the front of the sidepods are an intregal part of the tub. That part that gets hit first by the front tires and related parts when they fold back in a crash. This area was easily removable and replaceable on the Lola. Hope their is some sort of repair that will work at the track in the works besides sending the tub back.