USGP - Bye Bye Bernie?

[weeflyonthewall]

Bernie showed his usual disrespect for the US market over the weekend. Indianapolis Motor Speedway officials responded by setting a July 12 deadline for deciding the future of the U.S. Grand Prix at the track after Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone reportedly told Speedway CEO Tony George he needed more time to determine if the European-based series should return to Indianapolis (or anywhere else in the USA). This past weekend Ecclestone emphasized a lack of interest for grand prix racing in the U.S. Does he know where his bread gets buttered? If US sales for Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, didn't exist, could these manufacturers afford their F1 programs?

[Flat.tyres]

Bernie showed his usual disrespect for the US market over the weekend. Indianapolis Motor Speedway officials responded by setting a July 12 deadline for deciding the future of the U.S. Grand Prix at the track after Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone reportedly told Speedway CEO Tony George he needed more time to determine if the European-based series should return to Indianapolis (or anywhere else in the USA). This past weekend Ecclestone emphasized a lack of interest for grand prix racing in the U.S. Does he know where his bread gets buttered? If US sales for Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, didn't exist, could these manufacturers afford their F1 programs?

the question is whether F1 affects the sale of those cars to the US public. looking at the amount of empty stands, you have to wonder?

[Big Ben]

the question is whether F1 affects the sale of those cars to the US public. looking at the amount of empty stands, you have to wonder?

I don't think that F1 has too much of an influence on that (IMO)... I would still buy myself a toyota even if the team is doing so bad.... and I would buy a ferrari (if i had the money) even if I hate the team! :)

[JasonD]

Tony George is playing a dangerous game, Bernie can easily and gladly pick up the race and drop it off in how many other places?

While I can understand Tony George wanting an answer he has to realize Bernies balls are a lot bigger than his, and Bernies have been dipped in titanium.

[schmenke]

I'm not sure that Bernie's profits are necessarily linked, even indirectly, to the sales figures of passenger cars in the U.S. :mark:

And yes, the stands at Indy looked ominously empty for both the practice and quals :s . Looked o.k. for race day though.

[Dave B]

I don't have the figures, but I suspect that markets like China and India are far more important to manufacturers than the USA.

[tacksharp]

Bernie is used to whole countries begging him for a race, so when F1 is treated like just another event in the U.S., he of course would rather go where he is showered with affection and huge amounts of cash.

I believe Bernie really has given up on the U.S. market, therefore I believe that the only reason there continues to be a USGP is because Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, and Bridgestone say they want a race in the U.S.

Bernie is bluffing to get more favorable terms before he signs a long term contract. I hate Tony George but I believe he is playing it straight. He would love to have a USGP but won't get on his knees for it.

[tacksharp]

I don't have the figures, but I suspect that markets like China and India are far more important to manufacturers than the USA.

China is easily the most important emerging market for manufacturers, but the U.S. is definitely the single most important current market for all the manufacturers in F1 except for Renault. But Ghosn does covet the U.S. market and I believe he plans to sneak Renault back into America via Nissan dealers (with re-badged cars), and then slowly re-introducing the Renault name. If that's the case, then I think even Renault wants a USGP, to help re-introduce brand awareness, even if just to a small but enthusiast group (U.S. F1 fans).

[Duralumin]

I don't have the figures, but I suspect that markets like China and India are far more important to manufacturers than the USA.

I don't have any figure either but I suspect more Ferraris are sold in one day in it's top three US dealerships than in all of India in a year. But I could be wrong. Cheers.

[luvracin]

the question is whether F1 affects the sale of those cars to the US public. looking at the amount of empty stands, you have to wonder?

A half empty Indianapolis can still hold more people than many other circuits when full.

[Scuderia ferrari]

It's the fact that lots of people in america are not interested with F1 as more of them watch nascar/indy car.

What's the point of putting on a show if no-one is going to watch it?

I wouldn't care less in F1 never went to america again, i mean indy is dangerous, to short a track and a quite boring track.

[Easy Drifter]

The US is a very important market but both India and China are emerging markets with huge potential. Their populations are far larger than the US and while poor now they will develop. Bernie will go where the money is for him.
Tony may be rich but I think Bernie is many times wealthier. Not bad for a used car salesman with an interest in one particular train.
If you do not understand the last reference maybe someone else will explain it as I won't.

[ioan]

Bernie is bluffing to get more favorable terms before he signs a long term contract. I hate Tony George but I believe he is playing it straight. He would love to have a USGP but won't get on his knees for it.

Agreed.

Question: "How much wealthier Bernie wants to be???"

[trumperZ06]

;) I suspect that ALL of the automobile manufacturers in Formula 1 feel the same as Norbert Haug who is quoted in Reuters...

"We most definitely should have a race here, and if you ask me, maybe TWO or even MORE... in the United States", said the Mercedes motor sports chief.

"For a World Championship... it is important to be here."

"It is our... BIGGEST market... outside of Germany. It is our... FASTEST GROWING market, a very important market" !!!



:rolleyes: Bernie and Mad Max may take their ball & go home... they seem to deserve each other.

ADIOS Bernie... don't let the door hit you in the A$$... on your way out !!!

Not many here in the States will miss either of these clowns !!!



:D The Automobile Manufacturers will simply find another avenue to market their goods !!!

Possibly choosing to concentrate... on ALL the new Sports Cars... they are introducing in the next year or two.

[truefan72]

the question is whether F1 affects the sale of those cars to the US public. looking at the amount of empty stands, you have to wonder?

Listen,

Indy comfortably seats over 220,000 people and in the F1 configuration about 160,000 so according to the Data, there were over 138,000 + for the Sunday race and over 300,000 for the entire weekend.

Those numbers are on par if not far better than many other venues.
The fact that the United States is a sub continent skews one's perspective of it's popularity in the US. Yes, it doesn't have the same fan base as NASCAR in the US, but NASCAR by shear numbers has a more popular fan base than a lot of GP series in Europe and Asia combined.

If anything, the US should probably get two races with the second in the west coast. Can you imagine having to travel from London or Germany, 4-5 hours by plane to go watch the nearest F1 race?

As for the ratings, the highest rated one-off events in the US is the Super bowl which usually does a 26-33 on the Nielsen ratings, that equates to about 30 million households and about 65-75 million in total audience (according to the new Nielsen rating system) NASCAR usually averages about anywhere from a 12-16 on broadcast tv with the Brickyard 400 and Daytona 500 at about a 19 which is about 30 million and 42 million viewers respectively. They also show a bunch of races on TNT cable which is a much smaller restricted market and gets them about a 7-10 which is extremely high for cables sake.

For most of the season F1 is on speed TV on cable which consequently restricts the viewership to about a 1.4-3 which is about 4-5 million homes and equitable total audience. You will be surprised that a good number of US homes still don't have basic cable let alone speed TV which is sometimes packaged in a premium sports package.


With the USGP broadcast on Fox they probably get a 5-8 rating which is a solid number and equates to about 15 million in total audience. That's not bad for a niche sport here in the US.

As far as Bernie goes, it is the TV contract and licensing fees that are of interest and trust me. he and F1 make a pretty penny out of the USGP. Add to that the tickets and merchandise sold and you get a lucrative race there.

Bernie is trying to play head games with Tony George to squeeze out a better deal but risks losing a decent cash cow. The US GP generates more revenue to F1 than, Bahrain, Australia, Malaysia, Brazil, France, Spa, and Hungary off the top of my head.

The race isn't going anywhere any time soon. Just political maneuvering by both parties. From Indy's point of view, yes it might hurt a bit, but they can easily stage a few other races there to make up the revenue loss. Including a second NASCAR race, Busch series race, ALMS series race, etc.

Just by the size of the United States alone, even a proportionately smaller percentage of the total TV market viewing is still a solid number of viewers.

[truefan72]

It's the fact that lots of people in america are not interested with F1 as more of them watch nascar/indy car.

What's the point of putting on a show if no-one is going to watch it?

I wouldn't care less in F1 never went to america again, i mean indy is dangerous, to short a track and a quite boring track.

See my previous post, first and to add to your comments,

name me one F1 track that isn't dagerous, and let me know how many tracks are in your mind "not boring"

I love F1 but most are processions with few overtaking, It really isn't the track that makes it boring. but the cars inabilty to produce exciting shows. Far to often, the most excitement we get is in the pits and if there is some sort of contact on the track or retirements. Otherwhise, most races are uneventful in terms of dynamics. Even the mid pack usually is a train of cars with difficulties overtaking. This problem is pretty unique to F1 and is a result fo their own superior engineering. half of me loves the novelty and innovations, and half of me wishes to see more on track action.

[pits4me]

A half empty Indianapolis can still hold more people than many other circuits when full.

Good point. Indy has seats where most venues you have to settle for dirt mounds, etc. Exception maybe Malaysia with the pennisula style grandstands.

[call_me_andrew]

It's the fact that lots of people in america are not interested with F1 as more of them watch nascar/indy car.

What's the point of putting on a show if no-one is going to watch it?

I wouldn't care less in F1 never went to america again, i mean indy is dangerous, to short a track and a quite boring track.

Trust me, F1 and IndyCar have roughly the same size audience here.

I think Bernie is bluffing.

[trumperZ06]

Trust me, F1 and IndyCar have roughly the same size audience here.

I think Bernie is bluffing.

;) Yep.... Bernie's Bluffing.

:D Tony George should... sit back... and wait for the constructors/auto mfg'rs to...

"Lean on Ole Bernie" !!!

Someone needs to give a "WAKE UP" call to both Bernie & Max.

[weeflyonthewall]

Like threatening to drop the British GP at Silverstone every 12 months. With so many teams based in the UK there should be two races there. I'd like to see a Monaco style street race in Edinburgh or Glasgow.

[Racehound]

the question is whether F1 affects the sale of those cars to the US public. looking at the amount of empty stands, you have to wonder?
youre not wrong there about the empty stands!!!!!!!!....i couldnt believe it when i saw it!!!!!...both stands on both sides of the track along the start/finish straight looked to me like they were at least 30% void of people!!!!.....mind you , Indy is a big place, but itdidnt look good all those empty seats!!!!! bout time the poison pixie clucked off to his little island in the sun and leave the organizing to the big boys before his senile dementure becomes obvious to everyone!!!....... :)

[Timber]

;) I suspect that ALL of the automobile manufacturers in Formula 1 feel the same as Norbert Haug who is quoted in Reuters...

"We most definitely should have a race here, and if you ask me, maybe TWO or even MORE... in the United States", said the Mercedes motor sports chief.

"For a World Championship... it is important to be here."

"It is our... BIGGEST market... outside of Germany. It is our... FASTEST GROWING market, a very important market" !!!



:rolleyes: Bernie and Mad Max may take their ball & go home... they seem to deserve each other.

ADIOS Bernie... don't let the door hit you in the A$$... on your way out !!!

Not many here in the States will miss either of these clowns !!!



:D The Automobile Manufacturers will simply find another avenue to market their goods !!!

Possibly choosing to concentrate... on ALL the new Sports Cars... they are introducing in the next year or two.

You are right Bernie is only interested in is pocket , Him and Max made F1 the most boring racing in the world .

[jso1985]

I'm the only to think Bernie has no plans to dump the USGP, and he's only trying to get extra 10-20 millions from Tony George?

[nigelred5]

He already gets far less from the USGP per race than most other GP's. The USGP is far more important to the manufacturers than to Bernie's wallet. We've discussed the track's weaknesses since the roadcourse was opened. One relatively minor change to 9 and 10 would improve it tremendously, and I'm sick of hearing how dangerous it is simply because ol Ralphie can't seem to drive through the place. Montreal and Monaco are both far more dangerous IMHO and there have been far more serious accidents on so called "safer" tracks. There's been what 2 incidents in seven races in turn 13 and as I recall, were they not the same driver?

This year there were a tremendous amount of spectators on the viewing mounds on hte infield section, and they also added the bleachers in turn 8 that weren't there when they first raced at Indy. 138,000 that I read as a race day crowd isn't shabby and I would wager probably more than China and Bahrain combined. Places like China, Maylasia, Singapore and India are willing to pay a King's ransome to get or keep and F1 race, but there are hardly any fans at the tracks. And those tracks all have significant government subsidies aimed at proving they are worthy of an international event the size of F1.

If they want to increase the crowd significantly at Indy, They could start by not having hte race on Father's day. The city should also do something about the hotels gouging race fans. This isn't the 500 of the 1980's and Early 90's and The visitors aren't primarily the high rolling europeans that they seem to think. Trippling or more their regularly posted hotel rates for race weekend doesn't get a lot of return customers. In '02 I paid $125 a night for a crappy room at a knights inn half way across town. the rate posted on the Knights Inn room door was $29.00. The Days Inn a couple miles from the track gave away my pre paid reservation I made a little under a year in advance. I had confirmed less than a week before the race. I found out that I had paid $89 a night and they were charging walk in's $300 bucks ans simply sold my room to a fool willing to pay more. I even had my reservation printed out showing it was paid in full. At first they lied and said the hotel was 100 full. Then they hanged their story and would honor my reservation, but only if I paid the difference. When we called the police, they were suddenly full again. I had to fight with Day's inn corporate for six months and threaten to sue them to get my money back for a room I never was alowed to check in to. We've decided to not go back since for that sole reason. My roundtrip airfair was less than one night's accomodations.

The problem with possibly moving the race elsewhere, Who's got a suitable track in the US? no one. And even the few that would be remotely suitable for a modern F1 race don't have the $ to make the track modifications, let alone pay for F1 standard garages and his rediculous sanctioning fee. Even a street race somewhere like Vegas is going to have difficulty landing that kind of money and then finding a race date where the tires won't melt right into the asphalt, let alone get any significant numbers spectators to actually watch the race in the normal heat. Could you imagine a race in June in Vegas? Ra and the Glen are far too distant from a major population in this day and age to draw a decent crowd, even for an F1 race.

[nigelred5]

youre not wrong there about the empty stands!!!!!!!!....i couldnt believe it when i saw it!!!!!...both stands on both sides of the track along the start/finish straight looked to me like they were at least 30% void of people!!!!.....mind you , Indy is a big place, but itdidnt look good all those empty seats!!!!! bout time the poison pixie clucked off to his little island in the sun and leave the organizing to the big boys before his senile dementure becomes obvious to everyone!!!....... :)


You can't and don't see squat in 90% of the grandstands from turn 12 all the way past start/finish, and the view from the inside grandstands on the main strait totally sucks. I'm not sure I would even take free ticket t o sit there. You can't even see the pits because of how they are beind the wall and you can barely see turn 1 at all. As soon as they make turn in, the cars disappear behind the grandstand. The only decent place to sit in grandstands is outside turn 1 and then watching from the mounds along hulman blvd and the grandstand inside the track behind the museum. It actually is a track you need to walk around to watch from different areas, but then you have to have a ticket to get into the grandstands to see anything on the front stretch or the first complex of turns.. Even half empty there were far more than 100K there. If you've never been to IMS, you honestly have no idea how immense that place really is. It is honestly mind boggling.

[klm-607]

Bernie & Max are arrogant, pompass, annoying, ultra rich spoiled little children, w/God complexes, who are together destroying F1, WRC, WTCC & all
other FIA related racing in general. Time for a mutiny!!! Hang them w/their own ascots!!!! I wonder how much $$$ the 2 of them have "skimmed" off the FIA over the years. F**KERS!!!!!!!!

[call_me_andrew]

While they're were a lot of empty seats, Indy has more seating than any other F1 track. The commentators even mentioned that this was the biggest crowd at the USGP since 2000.

[ShiftingGears]

Tony George is playing a dangerous game, Bernie can easily and gladly pick up the race and drop it off in how many other places?

While I can understand Tony George wanting an answer he has to realize Bernies balls are a lot bigger than his, and Bernies have been dipped in titanium.

Its not about balls, its about predicament. Bernie uses his power, not balls. If losing Indy meant losing A LOT of money that could not be remade in other locations for the USGP, then Bernie would sign it rather promptly.

[Mark]

If US sales for Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, didn't exist, could these manufacturers afford their F1 programs?

That's the wrong way to look at it. If F1 didn't go to the USA, would the sales of Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Honda & Mercedes suffer as a result? Probably not.

The USA is a big market for cars but it's also a very strange one, in that the cars bought there are not like those bought everywhere else in the world. Many car makers have one range for North America, and another for everywhere else.

Remember F1 became very popular without any US Grand Prix, and it's popularity worldwide would not suffer if there was no US Grand Prix.

F1 and the USA do not need each other.

[wmcot]

Its not about balls, its about predicament. Bernie uses his power, not balls. If losing Indy meant losing A LOT of money that could not be remade in other locations for the USGP, then Bernie would sign it rather promptly.

Plus, at Bernie's age, I really doubt that he cares about the long-term future of F1. If he did, he would try to publicize the series more for the US audience. Only 4 races a year are broadcast on standard, free, television networks. The rest are on premium cable networks. NASCAR is free, many IRL and Champ Car races are free. There is a huge market to be captured, but very little effort is being put into doing so!

The USGP is not limited to income from US residents. I went to the 2004 race and the stands were full of people (with MONEY!) who came from Central and South America! This is their home race, too!

[ioan]

That's the wrong way to look at it. If F1 didn't go to the USA, would the sales of Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Honda & Mercedes suffer as a result? Probably not.

The USA is a big market for cars but it's also a very strange one, in that the cars bought there are not like those bought everywhere else in the world. Many car makers have one range for North America, and another for everywhere else.

Remember F1 became very popular without any US Grand Prix, and it's popularity worldwide would not suffer if there was no US Grand Prix.

F1 and the USA do not need each other.

You may say the same about any other GP! :rolleyes:

[trumperZ06]

That's the wrong way to look at it. If F1 didn't go to the USA, would the sales of Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Honda & Mercedes suffer as a result? Probably not.

The USA is a big market for cars but it's also a very strange one, in that the cars bought there are not like those bought everywhere else in the world. Many car makers have one range for North America, and another for everywhere else.

Remember F1 became very popular without any US Grand Prix, and it's popularity worldwide would not suffer if there was no US Grand Prix.

F1 and the USA do not need each other.

:rolleyes: Hhmmmm.... IMO...

Norbert Haug as well as the other Manufacturers definitely want to see Formla 1 remain in the United States Market !!! Ferrari's sales & exorbitant pricing have been built on their Formula 1 performance over the years. As long as the USA provides the Lion's share of their sales, they will want to continue racing in the States.

In fact, I'm also sure Red Bull would dis-agree with your line of reasoning, too !!!

;) I can't think of anyone from the Formula 1 camp... including Bernie (discount his posturing)...

that would say...

"Formula 1 and the USA do not need each other" !!!

:dozey: On the other hand... many racing fans here in the States don't pay any attention to the Formula 1 Circus... especially since the FIAsco at Indy in 2005.

Formula 1 still has to rebuild credability... and Bernie's OUTRAGEOUS statements... certainly are not improving... F-1's reputation.

:s mokin: Trumper

[wmcot]

According to the latest issue of F1 Racing, the USA is 3rd in the amount of money from sponsors going into F1. 1st was Switzerland (Phillip Morris $$$$) and then Germany (Mercedes, BMW, and others) followed by the USA.

I would think that some of these sponsors would be less likely to pitch in the money if they never get to see their logos running around on home soil. That could eventually leave F1 trying to find a lot of sponsorship money from other areas of the world.

Maybe Bernie figures that India and China would easily make up the difference and their governments would probably do that, but at what cost to the people? What is the per capita income of a family in India or China? Should their governments be putting money in Bernie's pockets at the expense of their citizens? But then, Bernie never claimed to have high morals! Just deep pockets! :(