Difference in track layout: Champ Car and IndyCar at Mid-Ohio

[Civic]

I was surprised that an IndyCar got to within half a second of Paul Tracy's 2003 Champ Car pole time at Mid-Ohio.

Is the IRL using the same layout as Champ Car at Mid-Ohio? Also, it's my understanding that the backstraight "kink" was slightly straightened and repaved (this is what supposedly caused Joey Hand's end-over-end crash). If so, would this significantly affect overall laptimes?

Can't wait for July 22. Mid-Ohio is the only racetrack I've ever walked on (a 45-minute leisure stroll over one lap) so I've always had a certain affinity for that track.

[45 Below]

The track has been re-surfaced which has also affected grip levels. But reading the post-test comments from drivers who had driven there before most seemed to think it is more slippery, although Dixon felt grip levels had improved.

I'm no expert but I guess aero levels would also make a difference. If you have a track with a lot of high speed corners a less powerful car with more downforce will close the gap. But put them on a track that requires more acceleration from low speed then I guess more powerful, torquier cars are going to do better.

[RGM Fan]

My understanding is that they are using the traditional CART layout.

Dario's best time: 1:07.667

PT's old record: 1:07.058

Time turned in by a CC rookie in a solo test: 1:06.28

[nigelred5]

I've also read several times that the IRL cars in roadcourse set up aren't the total pigs we'd like to believe. They have a ton of wing, and they also went back to the 3.5 litre engine with the switch to ethanol.

[Civic]

Would love to see an IndyCar at Laguna Seca. Do current IndyCars have underbody tunnels?

I also remember reading about a joint Firestone test that had Panther Racing and Hornish in an IRL car and Mo Nunn Racing and Kanaan in a Champ Car. It was at one of the miles, either Milwaukee or Nazareth. IRL was quicker in the turns and Champ Car was quicker in the straights. Lap times were near equal such that the IRL car couldn't pass the Champ Car and the Champ Car couldn't pass the IRL car.

I also remember a pic from a Homestead test that had Lazier in a Hemelgarn Dallara-Olds and Fernandez in a Reynard-Honda.

[millencolin]

I also remember a pic from a Homestead test that had Lazier in a Hemelgarn Dallara-Olds and Fernandez in a Reynard-Honda.

any chance to find that pic?

[Civic]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/HybridsRacing/irl_cart.jpg

[DavePI2]

I don't know about the layout specifics but I do know many of the guys who worked on the resurfacing project. Kokosing Construction did a great job of repaving the track , adding new curbs, and fencing. Kokosing was contracted because they are the best. I have inspected their jobs and I am always impressed. I can't say that of all asphalt contractors in the Central Ohio area I have worked with. Thank goodness MidOhio picked them.

David

[45 Below]

I've also read several times that the IRL cars in roadcourse set up aren't the total pigs we'd like to believe. They have a ton of wing, and they also went back to the 3.5 litre engine with the switch to ethanol.

Dallara have plenty of history building road racing chassis but I understand the main drawback their IRL car has is its pull-rod front suspension. They used the system to reduce its frontal profile as much as possible and while it works well it takes a lot more to make tweaks and adjustments than conventional push-rod suspension.

I was pleasantly surprised when I first saw them race at St Pete a couple of years ago. They carried a lot more cornering speed than I expected - clearly there's plenty of downforce.

[Civic]

I remember reading something about the pullrod front suspension being part of the reason why Ganassi used the Panoz for the road courses since the Panoz had pushrod fronts.

[45 Below]

I remember reading something about the pullrod front suspension being part of the reason why Ganassi used the Panoz for the road courses since the Panoz had pushrod fronts.

That's the way I understand it too. I think they had to flag them away this year because of cooling issues when using ethanol-powered 3.5 litre engines in the Panoz chassis on road/street courses and the slower ovals.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think it should be noted though that Champ Cars haven't been to Mid Ohio for a few years. I would think this year's car might be under 1:05. That said, the IRL car is a much better road racer than originally thought. The first tests were dismal, and a friend of mine from SCCA told me that early tests had some of the IRL boys slower than Atlantic times for Mid Ohio. Now I know the Panoz and Dallara's are better than that now, but it took time. Unless the two series both share a track in the same year, it is a little tricky to predict who would be faster. Rules for engines have changed a lot (the Cossies in Champ Car are down on power from where they were when they last ran Mid-Ohio) but the chassis are better,so I think in the end, it is an interesting debate with no winners.

[CCFanatic]

Will Power and Simon Pagenaud ran a test back in May, in believe.

[RGM Fan]

I think it should be noted though that Champ Cars haven't been to Mid Ohio for a few years. I would think this year's car might be under 1:05. That said, the IRL car is a much better road racer than originally thought. The first tests were dismal, and a friend of mine from SCCA told me that early tests had some of the IRL boys slower than Atlantic times for Mid Ohio. Now I know the Panoz and Dallara's are better than that now, but it took time. Unless the two series both share a track in the same year, it is a little tricky to predict who would be faster. Rules for engines have changed a lot (the Cossies in Champ Car are down on power from where they were when they last ran Mid-Ohio) but the chassis are better,so I think in the end, it is an interesting debate with no winners.

Simone Pagenaud ran the old CART course this year. My understanding is the IRL is also using the old CART layout. As I posted earlier in this thread: The best time to come out of the IRL session: 1:07.667; PT's old record: 1:07.058; Pagenaud's time: 1:06.28.

It was a solo test and so he didn't have the benefit of having other drivers to learn from or push against. Based on that data, I think its safe to say the DP01 is a second and half, to two seconds, or more, a lap faster than the IRL cars in road course trim. Basically, if there were no yellows, Sebass would lap the entire IRL feild in less than 40 laps.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I stand partially corrected, but I also am glad to know that the DP-01 was about 2 seconds quicker....or would be.

[Hoss Ghoul]

I would hope and think that CC would be faster, by most estimates they make at least 50 and upwards of 100 more horsepower(650vs750...not counting overboost/P2P). Not too mention it is a newer chasis and is/was designed for road courses vs ovals, whereas the reverse is true for the IRL.

The main reason the IRL is competitive is due to the downforce, I think its fair to assume tires are a minimal difference between the two(not counting the "reds"). Also, doesn't the IRL road package have brakes that are designed for longer braking than CC? I recall reading about that a year or so ago. It was a purposeful move to increase braking distance, and thus passing zones.

[RGM Fan]

The main reason the IRL is competitive is due to the downforce

Really? I thought Iowa, Kanasa, Texas, Motegi and Homestead were follow the leader affairs because of far too much force means no overtaking ability.

Although the main reason Milka Duno is as competitive as she is, is due to the massive amount of downforce dialed into those cars.

[45 Below]

Really? I thought Iowa, Kanasa, Texas, Motegi and Homestead were follow the leader affairs because of far too much force means no overtaking ability.

Although the main reason Milka Duno is as competitive as she is, is due to the massive amount of downforce dialed into those cars.

I don't think Hoss was talking how the relative competitiveness of ICS racing - I think he was meaning competitive as in not as far behind the CCWS lap times as some had expected.

As for Milka, she hasn't looked remotely competitive at any of the tracks. I'm surprised she hasn't been told to park it.

I think you'll see them using a different wing configuration for Iowa next year. It was their first time racing on the track and they may have been overly conservative.

[IMSAFAN1]

Old Cart layout??? the only difference in the track is the bus stop before turn one. that is only used for club racing. The track hasn't changed at all. Mid-Ohio is in the top 3 in being technical to drive. Others are Mosport and Watkins Glen

[Hoss Ghoul]

I don't think Hoss was talking how the relative competitiveness of ICS racing - I think he was meaning competitive as in not as far behind the CCWS lap times as some had expected.



Exactly, thanks.

[Peter Olivola]

There are far more technical tracks than either Mosport or Watkins Glen. Among those used in pro racing this would include Sears Point, St. Jovite, VIR, Barber and almost any street course. Mid-Ohio is perhaps the most technical full time course in the U.S. but Sears Point can make a good case. Mosport especially, but also Watkins Glen rank only slightly above Lime Rock on the technical scale and all three are well and truely on the bottom of the list.


Old Cart layout??? the only difference in the track is the bus stop before turn one. that is only used for club racing. The track hasn't changed at all. Mid-Ohio is in the top 3 in being technical to drive. Others are Mosport and Watkins Glen

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mosport is technical, but it doesn't race that way or appear tha way. High speed corners require you to hit your marks, and 2 decreasing radius corners with big elevation changes make it techinical.

Mid Ohio looks too tight for the faster cars truth be said. I have always loved the track, and the vistas you get at some of the twisty bits off the back straight, but I think with fast cars, such as IRL or Champ Cars, it is just too tight.

[Easy Drifter]

Peter: I don't know if you have raced at Mosport but it is quite technical. I instructed at a drivers' school there for two years. One isn't too tricky but it is blind so you have to set it up before you see it. 2 is usually considered the most difficult, but I don't agree. Totally blind steeply downhill with the effect of reverse camber. It actually is slightly banked. You have to set it up before you can see any of it. There is a second fast line going down the outside of the turn about 2/3rds of the way and then cutting sharply to the apex at the bottom of the hill. SCARY! Bruce McLaren was a master of this line and I did use it but not often. #3 is partially blind with a tight beginning opening up and then tightening up slightly. There are several feasible lines here. #4 (the Chute to us old -----) is to my mind the hardest to get really right. Blind downhill left, across the creek and sharply up hill into Moss. Totally blind approach and easy to go fast. Very hard to go really fast. If you get it right it is a good place to pass, otherwise you get passed! Moss 5 and 5B are easy but 5 is blind as you go uphill from the bridge. So steeply uphill you can brake far later than you would think possible. A mistake in 5B leaves you losing time up the entire back straight. #8 is very fast open right but if you get off line you cannot get #9 (left) correct. It actually is the least important turn as long as you can sort out any mistake before #10 which is slightly banked and a little more than 90 degrees and fairly slow. However if you foul it up you lose time until at least 2. That is my biased opinion of Mosport.

[Peter Olivola]

I ran both tracks. Mosport was relatively easy to learn and not significantly harder to go fast. I ran well ahead of my average grid and finish position there. St. Jovite is one of those tracks that requires coaching, which I didn't have. It's the only track I've ever driven that left me feeling like I'd just played a round of golf, and I hate golf.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Peter....at some point, it is HARDER to go fast at Mosport, but then again, maybe you were just exceptionally immune to the fear factor that it gives some people. I am biased about my love for the old beast, but I know from interviews from people like James Weaver and some of the other sportscar aces, they all feel Mosport always leaves them feeling like you felt about St. Jovite./Mt. Tremblant. Weaver said over and over again it was his favourite track anywhere....and god knows he saw a few of em...

[Peter Olivola]

My frame of reference for the fear factor of a race track is Bridgehampton. Mosport rates about 60% of my baseline.


Peter....at some point, it is HARDER to go fast at Mosport, but then again, maybe you were just exceptionally immune to the fear factor that it gives some people. I am biased about my love for the old beast, but I know from interviews from people like James Weaver and some of the other sportscar aces, they all feel Mosport always leaves them feeling like you felt about St. Jovite./Mt. Tremblant. Weaver said over and over again it was his favourite track anywhere....and god knows he saw a few of em...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Peter, you just REALLY dated yourself.....

They quit racing there when I was a baby....

Bridgehampton must have been just diabolical scary if Mosport is 60% of that, because I have been told some established racers never get past the pucker factor in corner 2.....

[Peter Olivola]

I realize some consider it somewhat unique for a person several decades past the age of majority to be able to use the internet, but from my perspective, I find it absurd that you children think you have a handle on everything. :D


Peter, you just REALLY dated yourself.....

They quit racing there when I was a baby....

Bridgehampton must have been just diabolical scary if Mosport is 60% of that, because I have been told some established racers never get past the pucker factor in corner 2.....

[nigelred5]

Yet another reason on my list of reasons to hate developers and Golf!

[Peter Olivola]

No pain, no gain. If you could do well at Bridgehampton you wouldn't start in fear mode anywhere, which is a huge leg up when learning a new track. I learned something new every lap I drove there.

I've heard all the complaints. It always struck me as fear masking.


The Bridge was fun, but not so good for the spectator (or competitor). Sunday blue laws prevented engines from being started before 1 PM and there were only two ways out of there. The ferry north or the Long Island Expressway south. The ferry couldn't handle that much traffic and the only way to describe going back to New York on the LIE on Sunday nights is "forget about it".

[Jeffy2442]

Lake Speed

[Mark in Oshawa]

Peter, you just REALLY dated yourself.....

They quit racing there when I was a baby....

Bridgehampton must have been just diabolical scary if Mosport is 60% of that, because I have been told some established racers never get past the pucker factor in corner 2.....

Well Pete, I never for once realized that old people couldn't use the net, but I also never knew you has that many years on me. I only read about the "Bridge" so I wish I could have seen it in its prime.....but I must say I don't hate golf courses, I just wish they didn't build them on race tracks....

[philipbain]

Would love to see an IndyCar at Laguna Seca. Do current IndyCars have underbody tunnels?

Indycars are essentially flat bottomed with a upswept undertray between the rear wheels, similar in this respect to a Formula 1 car so the ground effect isnt as significant on an Indycar as it is on a Champ Car for example where the cars (particulary since the new for '07 DP01 was introduced) gain a significant proportion of thier downforce from ground effect tunnels under the car. The significance of ground effect is that it is less affected by dirty air, meaning that cars can run closer together without losing too much downforce, you see that time after time in Indycar races (especially ovals) the drivers have to back out of the throttle if they get too close to the car infront through a corner due to losing downforce.