WHY - North American races

[Oli_M]

OK there is a lot of talk about drivers like Bourdais, Wilson etc, who are doing well in the US Champ Car and IndyCar series, trying to get F1 seats. It seems to be (pretty much) a given that the "next step" down from F1 is GP2, Champ Car and IndyCar.

So in Europe, GP2 races alongside the F1 circus, it gives teams a good chance to notice drivers, and fans to pick out "up and coming" stars - such as Nico, Heikki and (dare I say it), Lewis.

Surely if IndyCar or Champ Car were really serious about being a proving ground for future F1 stars (after all, thats where almost all OW racers are trying to get to), then why don't they schedule one of their races alongside the F1 races in (particularly) North America??

Both series seem to be struggling drivers, teams, sponsors, cash, wouldn't this be a perfect opportunity to get some tie-ins with F1 - grab some of that sponsoship cash, get their series noticed more on the world-wide scale????


Or is that just far too simple a solution??????!!

[JasonD]

CCWS and Indycar see themselves as premiere series and as such wont take a back seat on a Saturday for F1.

Maybe Bernie has something to do with, maybe not. I bet right now he doesnt, maybe 15 years ago he would have cared but today he probably doesnt think much of open wheel racing in the US, can you blame him?

[-Helix-]

Surely if IndyCar or Champ Car were really serious about being a proving ground for future F1 stars

But they don't CARE about being a proving ground for F1. If their drivers want to go to F1 that's their business. But CC and the IRL are running their own series. Their mission is to entertain and make money, not send drivers to F1. If anything they would try to COMPETE with North American F1 races, not work WITH them as both want to be the premiere North American open wheel series.

[truefan72]

But they don't CARE about being a proving ground for F1. If their drivers want to go to F1 that's their business. But CC and the IRL are running their own series. Their mission is to entertain and make money, not send drivers to F1. If anything they would try to COMPETE with North American F1 races, not work WITH them as both want to be the premiere North American open wheel series.


couldn't have said it better

[kalasend]

Ask the topic question to any IRL or CC fan. I'm sure he/she will be pissed off. AFAIK, no IRL/CC fan think of their sport as a stepped-down from F1.

As a matter of fact, no US sporting league think of themselves as anything less than world premiere. Do you know what are the most common words on teh official titles of US sporting leagues? That's right, "World Champion". That pretty much sums it up.

So back to topic, no way in hell you are going to see IRL/CC being a support series for F1 events.

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Cart & Tony George managed to shoot themselves in the foot... when the open wheel racing series split !!! Before the split... the Indy 500 had the highest TV ratings of any motor sports event... here in the States.

Unless there is a merger, which doesn't appear likely, both of the U S based open wheel series may just slowly... "fade away".

Back in th early 80's... when F-1 was running at Long Beach, the F-1 boys were a poor cousin to the U S open wheel racing series.

IMO... those were F-1's best days here in the States... F-1 offered drivers like Andretti, and the beginning of the lightning fast turbo engines!!! Even so, they were well behind in TV ratings.

:( That "split" opened the doors for the 500 ton Gorilla (known as NA$CAR), and NA$CAR expanded well beyond their southern roots. Today, NA$CAR is currently the most popular racing series here in the States, by far.

The FIAsco put on at Indy two years ago... has turned the average TV viewer away from Formula 1. It's not an important event to the average U S sports fan.

Soccer (Y'all call it "football")... is popular with our youth over here... but is not highly watched as a spectator sport. Formula 1 fits into the same catagory... there are a limited number of fans (many with sportscar backgrounds)... but the average "man in the street" really has little interest in the F-1 Circus !!!

Bernie is right... currently Formula 1 is NOT important.... to the average fan in the USA. Some of us will be disappointed... if the midget takes his "football" and goes... to where-ever the HELL... he wants to.

But the averge guy here, could "care less"... there are ample sports clammering for his attention.

[CCFanatic]

Ask the topic question to any IRL or CC fan. I'm sure he/she will be pissed off. AFAIK, no IRL/CC fan think of their sport as a stepped-down from F1.

As a matter of fact, no US sporting league think of themselves as anything less than world premiere. Do you know what are the most common words on teh official titles of US sporting leagues? That's right, "World Champion". That pretty much sums it up.

So back to topic, no way in hell you are going to see IRL/CC being a support series for F1 events.


Correct. No way does F1 want to be blown away by CC(i.e. Zhuahi). Actually, in CC you have the World Champion, but in the IRL, you just have the IRL Champ.

[call_me_andrew]

I think Champ Car did share a weekend with F1 at Montreal a few years ago. And the Indy Pro Series does run as a support race before the USGP. They've tried, and they've failed.


As a matter of fact, no US sporting league think of themselves as anything less than world premiere. Do you know what are the most common words on teh official titles of US sporting leagues? That's right, "World Champion". That pretty much sums it up.

What hockey league is superior to the NHL? What baseball league is superior to MLB? I could raise similar questions for the NFL and NBA. They can call themselves "World Champions" because they know that they are in fact superior to all other leagues and draw all the best players.

[LeonBrooke]

What hockey league is superior to the NHL? What baseball league is superior to MLB? I could raise similar questions for the NFL and NBA. They can call themselves "World Champions" because they know that they are in fact superior to all other leagues and draw all the best players.

Did you know there's a huge baseball league in Japan? And that the one year the Japanese were allowed in the American series, they won like they were playing a bunch of newborn babies?

As for CC and IRL, it seems that they are heading towards oblivion, and that's a pity. I don't think they have much value apart from being feeder series for F1 but it would be sad to see a route for South American drivers to get the the top being cut down...

[Oli_M]

I just found it interesting, particularly with the ammount of interest Bourdais is generating at the moment, just looking at a unmber of online forums a common topic is "When will he get into F1" so clearly a lot of people do see it as a feeder series.

It does just seem to me that both CC and IRL are struggling at the moment, and it would make good marketing sense for the series bosses to really market it as a North American equivellant to GP2...... Just a thought...... paricularly if you have previous F1 drivers racing in the series at the moment (Doornbos and Jani spring to mind)

[LeonBrooke]

I just found it interesting, particularly with the ammount of interest Bourdais is generating at the moment, just looking at a unmber of online forums a common topic is "When will he get into F1" so clearly a lot of people do see it as a feeder series.

It does just seem to me that both CC and IRL are struggling at the moment, and it would make good marketing sense for the series bosses to really market it as a North American equivellant to GP2...... Just a thought...... paricularly if you have previous F1 drivers racing in the series at the moment (Doornbos and Jani spring to mind)

I agree - I see no way out of the hole for them if they don't. But they never will.

Oh well, their loss.

But then, they'd have to change their format substantially - get rid of the ovals and universally adopt standing starts. Will they ever do that? Champcar has been making noises about becoming more rest-of-the-world friendly in the racing format, but do they really mean it?

[JasonD]

I think Champ Car did share a weekend with F1 at Montreal a few years ago.

nope, didnt happen.

[call_me_andrew]

Did you know there's a huge baseball league in Japan? And that the one year the Japanese were allowed in the American series, they won like they were playing a bunch of newborn babies?

I know baseball is popular in Japan, but I've never heard of anything like that.

[LeonBrooke]

I'm sure it really happened...!

[tacksharp]

*Drivers* see both GP2 and Champ Car as stepping stones to F1; GP2 drivers who can't get into F1 look to Champ Car. So in terms of prestige, GP2 => Champ Car => F1. The Champ Car *series* always has and must always in the future consider itself a top-level series, not a feeder series.

Drivers see IRL as a stepping stone to lucrative NASCAR, not F1. Marco is the only realistic exception. He is high-profile, but I wonder if Graham is taking a smarter path.

[teamsuperimu]

Like everything else in open wheel racing that has happened in the last ten years its makes good sense, therefor it will never happen.

[wmcot]

IRL & Champ Cars have shared a couple of race weekends with the ALMS series this year at street races. This works well since the ALMS races are on Saturday and the IRL/CC races are on Sunday. I wish I had known enough in advance to go to Long Beach!

[aryan]

Even Aussie V8 Super Cars refused to ran support to F1 this year. Now you expect CC and IRL to do that?

Please ask this question in the CC/IRL forum. I would love to see their reaction.

[Racehound]

OK there is a lot of talk about drivers like Bourdais, Wilson etc, who are doing well in the US Champ Car and IndyCar series, trying to get F1 seats. It seems to be (pretty much) a given that the "next step" down from F1 is GP2, Champ Car and IndyCar.

So in Europe, GP2 races alongside the F1 circus, it gives teams a good chance to notice drivers, and fans to pick out "up and coming" stars - such as Nico, Heikki and (dare I say it), Lewis.

Surely if IndyCar or Champ Car were really serious about being a proving ground for future F1 stars (after all, thats where almost all OW racers are trying to get to), then why don't they schedule one of their races alongside the F1 races in (particularly) North America??

Both series seem to be struggling drivers, teams, sponsors, cash, wouldn't this be a perfect opportunity to get some tie-ins with F1 - grab some of that sponsoship cash, get their series noticed more on the world-wide scale????


Or is that just far too simple a solution??????!!
sounds very good...trouble is all the f1 teams dont splash da cash!!!!.......wot they got they KEEP!"!!!!and they wont give anyone else their contacts in case they decide to scrap investing in f1 and move their money to the HUUUUUUUUUUUGE market in the good ole us of a!!!!!!!!!!ferrari sell more cars in n.america than anywhere else on earth.....their market while they re wcc is immense!!!!!!!!!!!every time they aint cc the sales slump in the us...america loves ferrari!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ecclestones pampering to the scuds was conjoined to Ferraris success in the usa and his ......bank account!!!!!!!!!!

[nigelred5]

I'm sure it really happened...!

nope.

MLB has played some exhibition games in Japan and they did win the world baseball classic in 06, but they weren't playing regular season mlb teams. I don't discount the quality of Japanese Baseball in any way though.

[Ranger]

Even Aussie V8 Super Cars refused to ran support to F1 this year.
That decision was made entirely on complications from TV rights and coverage once Channel Seven obtained the rights to the V8's.

[XR8]

In the laste year I have been to a indy car race(GOLD COAST INDY) and a F1 race(MELBOOURNE) Although I thought6 they were both boring tracks as you can only see a small part of the track, I felt that the Indy cars looked to be very poor in there dynamics, overshooting chicanes in practice when they did not blook especially fast and very poor nioses popping and banging not sounding good at all. but the F1 cars were spectacular! They took corners at speeds that defied how they did it and stopped in impossible short distances. The only thing that I diddnt like about melbouren was the place and the officials. Now I dont know weather this is just at a F1 meeting or just at Melbourne as Adelaides clipsal race is a fantastic place as I have been there 3 times buit not to a F1 race.

[tacksharp]

... I felt that the Indy cars looked to be very poor in there dynamics, overshooting chicanes in practice when they did not blook especially fast and very poor nioses popping and banging not sounding good at all. but the F1 cars were spectacular! They took corners at speeds that defied how they did it and stopped in impossible short distances.

There's no point making a direct comparison of the cars. Champ cars are much heavier than F1 cars and use relatively low-tech brakes. F1 team budgets are 10x Champ Car budgets. The popping noise is the turbo's pop-off valve. If you're mostly interested in the fanciest tech, there's no comparison, F1 is astounding. If you're more interested in good racing action, the relatively low-tech and spec nature of Champ Car is much better. More drivers have a chance to win races. The handling is more forgiving; that and the longer braking distances allow for more aggresive driving and more chances at passing. It really suited Alex Zanardi's style, that's why he thrived in Champ Car but not in F1.

I don't know what it's like at Surfer's Paradise but in the U.S. the Champ Car races are way more fan-friendly than F1. In the paddock you can get close to the cars as they are being worked on. The drivers are way more accessible than in F1. Here's a picture I took in 2002, Kanaan and da Matta just hanging out, having fun:

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/cart/2002/ls/cart-2002-ls-dg-0358.jpg

Uhh, can you tell I'm a Champ Car fan?

[Garry Walker]

What baseball league is superior to MLB?
None, because no one else cares about something so hugely stupid as baseball. :p

[aryan]

the relatively low-tech and spec nature of Champ Car is much better. More drivers have a chance to win races. The handling is more forgiving; that and the longer braking distances allow for more aggresive driving and more chances at passing.

You mean like GP2?

Yes I like GP2; it's good as a feeder series ;)

[aryan]

Seriously guys, Which one do you think is faster, GP2 or ChampCar? They don't share any tracks so I guess direct comparison is impossible, however is there a way to make an indirect inference?

[trumperZ06]

None, because no one else cares about something so hugely stupid as baseball. :p

:p : Pfffft.... Baseball is hugely popular in:

1. USA
2. Central America
3. Mexico
4. Japan
5. And is gaining popularity in the Pacific Rim.

:rolleyes: Now if you were discussing Australian Rules Football...

you might have a point !!!

[call_me_andrew]

:p : Pfffft.... Baseball is hugely popular in:

1. USA
2. Central America
3. Mexico
4. Japan
5. And is gaining popularity in the Pacific Rim.

:rolleyes: Now if you were discussing Australian Rules Football...

you might have a point !!!

You forgot Canada, some Carribean islands, and a few South American countries.

Now to get back to something that resembles the topic...

I'm not sure how heavy the GP2 car is, but a Champ Car has 200 more horsepower than the GP2 car.

[-Helix-]

As a matter of fact, no US sporting league think of themselves as anything less than world premiere. Do you know what are the most common words on teh official titles of US sporting leagues? That's right, "World Champion". That pretty much sums it up.

Well to be fair, most U.S. League champions are the best in the world in their respective fields.

NHL teams are by far the best hockey teams in the world

NFL teams... well.... they only play American Football in America anyway...

NBA teams are most likely the best basketball teams in the world. Although some of the crappier ones have lost to international teams before.

MLB teams are probably the best baseball teams in the world too. Though some have said that Japanese teams could probably compete with MLB teams so that one might be argued.

[-Helix-]

I agree - I see no way out of the hole for them if they don't. But they never will.

Oh well, their loss.

But then, they'd have to change their format substantially - get rid of the ovals and universally adopt standing starts. Will they ever do that? Champcar has been making noises about becoming more rest-of-the-world friendly in the racing format, but do they really mean it?

Why would they do it? Why would they get rid of races that are popular and exciting just to be more "rest-of-the-world friendly"? CC and the IRL don't care about the rest of the world, just like the rest of the world doesn't care about them.

They care about the North American market and specific other markets globally where they do well and that's it. Some people, believe it or not, like American Open Wheel racing more than F1. These are the people CC and the IRL care about.

It's two completely different kinds of racing going after two completely different kinds of markets. There's no reason to work together. It would be like F1 and NASCAR working together.

[ShiftingGears]

Why would they do it? Why would they get rid of races that are popular and exciting just to be more "rest-of-the-world friendly"? CC and the IRL don't care about the rest of the world, just like the rest of the world doesn't care about them.

They care about the North American market and specific other markets globally where they do well and that's it. Some people, believe it or not, like American Open Wheel racing more than F1. These are the people CC and the IRL care about.

It's two completely different kinds of racing going after two completely different kinds of markets. There's no reason to work together. It would be like F1 and NASCAR working together.


Whys it the Champ Car World Series then?

[xtlm]

Whys it the Champ Car World Series then?

Drivers are Multiple Nationalities
Races are in Multiple Countries

[ShiftingGears]

That doesn't target an American audience - most people dont know anything about most of the drivers and there isn't a competitive American driver, after AJ went to NASCAR. From that alone, it isn't destined that the series will do well.

[Rantanamo]

Major League all-star play the Japanese all-stars in a series after each season in Japan. The Major Leaguers have pretty much won this series every year. Don't know anything about this Japanese team killing MLB teams. LOL. Never happened.

[LeonBrooke]

Drivers are Multiple Nationalities
Races are in Multiple Countries

Multiple countries? Three does not make a world championship. Don't be silly.


Major League all-star play the Japanese all-stars in a series after each season in Japan. The Major Leaguers have pretty much won this series every year. Don't know anything about this Japanese team killing MLB teams. LOL. Never happened.

If you insist. I must have been misinformed.

[Ranger]

Multiple countries? Three does not make a world championship. Don't be silly. Check the facts please. More like 7 countries on three continents.

[trumperZ06]

:D O K.... Back on topic !!!

:p : Bernie... Mad Max... and the FIA have done a remarkable job in turning off the American Formula 1 fans !!!

Those idiots made such a FIAsco at Indy in 2005.. that the latest issue in AutoWeek...
showing results of an AutoWeek poll...
gaging the fans interest in F-1.

"Indy-a-no-place:Reader voting on whether to change venues for the U.S. GP from Indy to almost anywhere else in the country is a dead-even race.... "

Poll results:

35.2 percent voted to stay in Indy

35.8 percent voted for a new location

29.0 percent voted for.. NO MORE GRAND PRIX

Remember guys... this is a "Motor-Head" weekly magazine... that reports the latest news from around the World. If approx. one third of these readers really don't care about having a F-1 race in the United States... what does the man in the street think ?

Let's all hope today's race is exciting with lots of lead changes !!!

If not... the average fan is likely to look elsewhere for entertainment.

[Ranger]

Regardless it just reflects that F1 has had trouble cutting the mustard in the USA... despite pretty large ticket sales. That's why Bernie is getting peaved and is up to his tricks.

[LeonBrooke]

Check the facts please. More like 7 countries on three continents.

That's only this year. Before that, was there anywhere else apart from the US, Canada and Mexico?

[tacksharp]

That's only this year. Before that, was there anywhere else apart from the US, Canada and Mexico?

Australia for many years, Japan for some years, Brazil for a couple of years.

A couple of years in England and Germany within the last ten years.

[LeonBrooke]

Yes, but it's a sign of Champcar's moribundity that in the last couple of years, it's gone nowhere outside north America (apart from Australia - I just remembered...). This year is the exception, not the rule.

And anyway - how can you have a world championship with a single-car series?

[jso1985]

I don't see the relation between not being world championship and a single-car series? :confused:

Champ Cars might be a F1 feeder series(or more like a F1 reject series) but they don't aim at being that so I don't see them "downgraded" to support racing.

Didn't Mexico kicked USA's butt in the Baseball World Cup last year?(or however it was called, it included MLB players IIRC) :p :

[nigelred5]

Multiple countries? Three does not make a world championship. Don't be silly.



If you insist. I must have been misinformed.

USA, Canada, Mexico, Australia, Belgium, and Holland this year. Bernie and Max got their fingers in the cancelled Zuhai, China race, though CC doesn't need a whole lot of help screwing things up lately

In my math that would have been seven countries on 4 continents, but as it is now, that makes six, not three countries. In years past that list also has included Japan, Brazil, England and Germany. Drivers from 14 countries so far in this year's driver list in ChampCar. I believe that's the same number of countries represented in race day drivers in F1. Qualifies as a World Championship in my book.

[OmarF1]

I think Champ Car did share a weekend with F1 at Montreal a few years ago. And the Indy Pro Series does run as a support race before the USGP. They've tried, and they've failed.



What hockey league is superior to the NHL? What baseball league is superior to MLB? I could raise similar questions for the NFL and NBA. They can call themselves "World Champions" because they know that they are in fact superior to all other leagues and draw all the best players.

Maybe this is true, but AMERICAN FOOTBALL is only played there, Baseball is popular mostly there too, Japan, Mexico, Cuba, Venezuela play baseball too but in fact most places outside the U.S. nobody gives a s#!t about baseball and american football, same as they don't care about F1 and games are played only in the U.S. and some major Canada Cities, NBA, NHL and MLB are huge and the best leagues to play this, but you don't see the UEFA Champions League' champion claiming itself as the WORLD CHAMP, and truly the UEFA Champions League' it is the best league' of football clubs on earth, i guess it is just an American-Megalomaniac thing.

PS. some american artists, specially rappers claim they had a world tour and you ask, where did you go, which parts of the world did you visit? Chicago, Miami, NY, LA, Texas, and Toronto. LOL!!

[call_me_andrew]

Well the UEFA is a subordinate to FIFA, and I can't explain why but players seem to be migrating to MLS. I'm guessing it stems from a desire to play in front of an NFL Europa size crowd.

[wmcot]

It seems like this thread has drifted way off topic into discussing what a "World Championship" is...but, I'll throw my opinion in the ring. Champ Car calls itself a World Series because nobody else is racing Champ Cars - they are the only ones in the world doing that. F1 is a World Series because there is no other F1 series that competes.

If you have the only event of its kind in the world and you win it, doesn't that make you the World's Champion in that event? F1 drivers are not claiming to be World Champion Drag racers or NASCAR drivers, they can claim to be World Champion F1 drivers and constructors.

[LeonBrooke]

My friends at school liked to make up games to play with chess pieces. They'd get about half a dozen people interested. Did the best player of them have the right to call herself a world champion? In my opinion, no. If they'd had players from all over the world then yes she would have, but since only ten people at the most even knew it existed, and even fewer were interested, then no; she's merely the best out of a small pool of 15-year-olds at a game which everyone will have forgotten in a week.

[wmcot]

My friends at school liked to make up games to play with chess pieces. They'd get about half a dozen people interested. Did the best player of them have the right to call herself a world champion? In my opinion, no. If they'd had players from all over the world then yes she would have, but since only ten people at the most even knew it existed, and even fewer were interested, then no; she's merely the best out of a small pool of 15-year-olds at a game which everyone will have forgotten in a week.

Maybe if they were paid professionals watched by a huge audience of fans...

[LeonBrooke]

My point is that the only people who knew about their games and wanted to participate were a small group of 15-year-olds. With Champcar, who wants to participate? No one. The all want to be in F1. F1 is the world championship because it's what everyone aspires to. Champcar is a stopgap until the drivers graduate or, as someone said, a place for them to go once they've been rejected by F1. Uniqueness doesn't make it a world championship.

[wmcot]

I think we're down to the point of arguing semantics, now. Perhaps this should be discussed on a linguistics forum... ;)