Best overall F1 car ever?

[BubbytheTourG]

Looking to see how F1 has changed over the years with more aerodynamic bodies and weaker engines... I have decided to conjure up this question. If every F1 car ever built by any team (even the MasterCard Lola, lol) were put together to race in any given circuit, which car would be the fastest overall and win?

[Ranger]

In real terms, the 2006 cars would win.

Comparitively, there'd be a few that'd stand out.

1952 Ferrari 500
1953 Ferrari 500
1978 Lotus-Ford 79
1984 McLaren-TAG/Porsche MP4/2
1988 McLaren-Honda MP4/4
1992 Williams-Renault FW14B
1996 Williams-Renault FW18
2002 Ferrari F2002
2004 Ferrari F2004

Yep, that'd be my list.

[Subaru WRX]

1993 and 1994 Williams Renault, what a great car, both skin and performance

http://www.statsf1.com/cars/photo/102/155.jpg

[F1boat]

Ferrari F2004.

[DexDexter]

1992 Williams FW 14B
1988 Mclaren

[Valve Bounce]

Auto Union driven by Bernd Rosemeyer.

[Dazz9908]

So many eras, different rules
Alfa Romeo 158
Mercedes W196
Copper Climax T51
Lotus Ford 49
McLaren Ford M23
Lotus Ford 79
Williams Ford Fw07
McLaren TAG MP4/2
Williams Honda Fw11
McLaren Honda MP4/4
Williams Renualt Fw14B
Williams Renualt Fw15C
McLaren Mercedes MP4/13
Ferrari F1-2000
Ferrari F2002
Ferrari F2004

But these are from the F1 era

As Valve has stated, some fantastic cars were produced pre 1950, are brilliant too!

[jonny hurlock]

Ferrari F2002 - WON 14/18 RACES, 2002 13/14 RACES alone
Ferrari F2004 - just dominated race after race

[jerryb]

I think the original question is directed toward which car would rate as the fastest. Based upon sheer speed in a straight line, it would probably be one of the turbo era cars. If lap times were the criteria, then it would have to be one of last years cars.

If performance over a long period of time is the criteria, then the winner would surely be the Maserati 250F for its competitiveness over five seasons.

[Subaru WRX]

Ferrari F2002 - WON 14/18 RACES, 2002 13/14 RACES alone
Ferrari F2004 - just dominated race after race
I hate these 2 cars they killed any cometition at F1 in 2002 and 2004 with a complete domination :mad:

[Viktory]

Ferrari F2004, amazing car!

[Abel Karaj]

1988 McLaren definitely. Would have won ALL 16 races without Schlesser's stupidity.

[D-Type]

I hate these 2 cars they killed any competition at F1 in 2002 and 2004 with a complete domination :mad: Ah, there's the rub! The sole reason a Formula 1 car is to win races. But you can't blame Ferrari and Schumacher for doing their job so effectively.

It might be the case that the regulations are now so tight that innovation is stifled, or that all the tracks are now so similar that a single design can dominate anywhere, or that there's too much money in FORMULA 1 AT PRESENT, BUT THAT'S A DIFFERENT ISSUE.

[Ranger]

Ferrari F1-2000

It won both titles, but overall it wasn't great enough to stand out in history as one of the best, as the McLaren was pretty close.

Much like the R26 Renault this year.

[D-Type]

Ah, there's the rub! The sole reason a Formula 1 car is to win races. But you can't blame Ferrari and Schumacher for doing their job so effectively.

It might be the case that the regulations are now so tight that innovation is stifled, or that all the tracks are now so similar that a single design can dominate anywhere, or that there's too much money in FORMULA 1 AT PRESENT, BUT THAT'S A DIFFERENT ISSUE.I'm not sure where the capitals came from - they are unintentional - sorry.

So my post should read:

Ah, there's the rub! The sole reason a Formula 1 car is to win races. But you can't blame Ferrari and Schumacher for doing their job so effectively.

It might be the case that the regulations are now so tight that innovation is stifled, or that all the tracks are now so similar that a single design can dominate anywhere, or that there's too much money in Formula 1 at present, but that's a different issue.

[ClarkFan]

There is a car no one has yet named, though people have named cars from befire its era and after.

The Lotus 72. Two World Driving Championships. Three World Constructors Championships (the only car ever to have done that). Was still winning races in 1974, its 5th season of competition, and won a total of 20 races, unprecedented for any car to that time. (And I'm not sure it has been beaten since.)

And on top of its accomplishments, it was also the first car with the modern physical layout. Side-mounted radiators to clean up the aerodynamics of the the nose, with the fuel tank between the driver and the engine.

If it wasn't the greatest car ever, it certainly belongs on the list.

ClarkFan

[Dazz9908]

It won both titles, but overall it wasn't great enough to stand out in history as one of the best, as the McLaren was pretty close.

Much like the R26 Renault this year.
Arh, but like the McLaren Mp4/13 set the benchmark of how a F1 car should use it's aerodynamics. Many cars still have m,any references to the Ferrari F1-2000 today. Thats why I made it a great Car.
I should have included the Lotus 78 was the forerunner for un-car aerodynamics, which became ground effects. and Still used today in a controlled guise.

[Cozzie]

Ferrari 156
Ferrari F2002
Ferrari F2004
Mercedes W196
McLaren Mp4/13
1992 Williams

(The Auto Union could only ever be handled by one man remember)

[D-Type]

Don't underestimate the 1959-60 Cooper-Climax. It took a lot to beat it.

Cozzie, who do you mean? Rosemeyer or Nuvolari? And Hans Stuck was fairly successful as well.

[Cozzie]

Cozzie, who do you mean? Rosemeyer or Nuvolari? And Hans Stuck was fairly successful as well.

Well Rosemeyer was the only man who managed to tun in a race winning performance reguarly!

Stuck and Nuvolari don't rate as high in my mind.

[555-04Q2]

I hate these 2 cars they killed any cometition at F1 in 2002 and 2004 with a complete domination :mad:

Dont hate the cars, hate the pathetic competition who werent able to keep up :(

[555-04Q2]

1988 McLaren-Honda MP4/4
2002 Ferrari F2002
2004 Ferrari F2004

Such dominace was never seen in F1, ever, as we saw in these three years.

The F2002 for me is the greatest F1 car ever, while the F2006 which won 13 of the first 14 races at the hands of Michael Schumacher was an epic achievement.

Prost and Senna in the MP4/4 were just sublime to watch.

[Chris R]

Motorsport has been running a comparison of the top cars of each season since 1906 and attempting ot create a virtual lap time of a theorectical Spa as a comparison.... Pretty interesting stuff...

All said and done the fastest cars overall are pretty much the current cars (or witihin the past several years anyway)...

[agwiii]

In no particular order:

Bugatti 35
Mercedes W165
Alfa 159
Maserati 250F
Ferguson P99
Lotus 25

[philipbain]

Due to the fact that despite rule changes the cars just get quicker then for outright lap speed i'd say it's a close call between the Ferrari F2002, Ferrari F2004 & the McLaren MP4/20 (if it ran on softer rubber than was used in 2005). It is surprising how quickly F1 progresses, by the early 90s F1 cars were surpassing the lap speeds achieved in the days of unrestricted turbos with a lot more power just 4 years earlier which points to advances in chassis and tyre technology as well as the enhanced usability of the atmospheric engines.

If we are talking of cars that dominated thier contempary competition then the Williams FW14B from 1992 has to be up there, simply because it was capable of lapping seconds quicker than it's competition at many circuits, though it's reliability and lack of development later in the season (they were working on the 1993 Williams FW15C by that point, such was the 14B's advantage) meant that it didnt statistically dominate as much as the McLaren MP4/4 had.

The McLaren MP4/4 was a case of McLaren getting everything right, the drivers, engine, chassis philosphy, construction, personel, preparation, everything about it was top notch, combined with the fact that everyone else got it wrong, Ferrari running a modded '87 chassis, Lotus not exploiting the lower Honda engine as well as McLaren and installing it poorly (it had an angled power train rather than using an extra shaft in the transmission, which is far from idea due to raising the COG) and the rest of the field using atmospheric engines that couldnt live with the turbos or using turbos in old chassis. It should have been 16 out of 16 for McLaren, Senna made a mistake at Monza whilst under pressure and having to run rich to preserve his engine, meaning he had to take risks to keep up his lap speed, which gave Ferrari a win they really didnt deserve, they didnt have true front running pace all season, save for qualifying at Silverstone but even then they couldnt get the fuel milage in the race in order to capitalise (Berger ran out of fuel on the final corner, losing a points finish in the process).

[agwiii]

Motorsport has been running a comparison of the top cars of each season since 1906 and attempting ot create a virtual lap time of a theorectical Spa as a comparison.... Pretty interesting stuff...

All said and done the fastest cars overall are pretty much the current cars (or witihin the past several years anyway)...


Do you have a link to these comparisons?

[D-Type]

Chris R is referring to the magazine Motor Sport, not to a website.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I would say the last few years of the Ferrari 2000 series would be in that category. That said, each era has its king car, but with technology and money being what they are, it isn't as much variety in the cars now, and there is just degree's of excellence based on the money to be spent.


Here would be my list:

W125 Mercedes
250f Maserati
Any Mercedes Benz of the 50's
Cooper Climax of 1962
Lotus 25
Tyrell 714
Lotus 79
MP4 McLaren
Williams Fw17
Ferrari's 2002-through 2006.

Of course, this is an impossible task to quantify, but fun!

[futuretiger9]

In terms of overall package, and lack of weaknesses. I would have to say the Ferraris from 2002 and 2004. The most technically advanced car would be the Williams FW14B and FW15.

The most revolutionary in many ways was the Lotus 72 (the wedge shape, aerodynamics and layout set the template which is still being adhered to today).

The most aesthetically pleasing may have been the Maserati 250F or the 1967 Lotus 49.

Although the McLaren MP4/4 of 1988 was numerically the most dominant, it has to be said that the opposition was a trifle thin that year, as it was a transitional period as regards technical regulations.

[D-Type]

As the question specifically says 'Formula 1' it excludes the Ferrari 500 of 1952-53 which won all bar one of the Championship Grands Prix. Well, all bar three if you include the Indianapolis 500. The most successful Grand Prix car ever.

[DazzlaF1]

It has to be the 1978 Lotus livery for me, just sheer elegance

http://www.atspeedimages.com/limerock_2003/concours/1978_jps_mkiv_lotus_79/1978_jps_mkiv_lotus_79.jpg

[ArrowsFA1]

That car just looks so right :cool:

[Mark]

In terms of which car would be the outright fastest. Then the Renault from last year would win it.

The turbo era cars wouldn't even come close. In fact the slowest car from 2006 would easily beat the fastest from 1986.

[futuretiger9]

Yes, during the turbo years, you could say that to some extent the aerodynamics took a back seat in comparison to the relentless search for more engine power. Looking back now, even the Williams/McLarens of the mid to late 1980s look pretty cumbersome.

[ShiftingGears]

There is a car no one has yet named, though people have named cars from befire its era and after.

The Lotus 72. Two World Driving Championships. Three World Constructors Championships (the only car ever to have done that). Was still winning races in 1974, its 5th season of competition, and won a total of 20 races, unprecedented for any car to that time. (And I'm not sure it has been beaten since.)

And on top of its accomplishments, it was also the first car with the modern physical layout. Side-mounted radiators to clean up the aerodynamics of the the nose, with the fuel tank between the driver and the engine.

If it wasn't the greatest car ever, it certainly belongs on the list.

ClarkFan


Agreed.

Also, it's probably the best looking Grand Prix car with wings. IMO.

[W8&C]

Lotus Ford 79 and Lotus Ford 72 (thanks to ClarkFan for reminding me of the latter).

Anyone remembers that USA GP, when Andretti in the Lotus 79 lost almost 1 lap in the pits after leading the race? Its been reasoned by a loss of power due to an broken exhaust. When reentering the race with a horribly ill sounding engine, he started to drive almost circles around his competitors, took back the lead and finally won the race. Even with that handicapped engine this car was still blindingly fast.

The 72 on the other side was, as ClarkFan already stated, competitive for three seasons – a unique achievement in modern F1. And its been the only car to make it possible to win a WDC even though his driver Jochen Rindt suffered a fatality in Monza.

And by the way: with that black and gold John Player livery both cars where marvellous to look at. Quite different to most of the current wingplastered stuff.

[Steve]

I would have to say its a tie between Schumi's F2002 and Senna's underpowered Honda V10 of 1991.

[ArrowsFA1]

The Lotus 72. Two World Driving Championships. Three World Constructors Championships (the only car ever to have done that). Was still winning races in 1974, its 5th season of competition, and won a total of 20 races, unprecedented for any car to that time. (And I'm not sure it has been beaten since.)

If it wasn't the greatest car ever, it certainly belongs on the list.
Not quite in the 72 class, but the McLaren M23 deserves a mention. Denny Hulme won it's first race in 1973, and James Hunt its' last in 1976, and it took Fittipaldi and Hunt to WDC's in 1974 & 1976.

[555-04Q2]

1988 Mac & 2002 Ferrari. The tied best F1 cars of all time IMO. Super fast, dominant, reliable and with great drivers behind the wheels. Ahead of their time.

[Valve Bounce]

1988 McLaren-Honda MP4/4
2002 Ferrari F2002
2004 Ferrari F2004

Such dominace was never seen in F1, ever, as we saw in these three years.

The F2002 for me is the greatest F1 car ever, while the F2006 which won 13 of the first 14 races at the hands of Michael Schumacher was an epic achievement.

Prost and Senna in the MP4/4 were just sublime to watch.

I think the post war 1955 Mercedes dominated F1 like no other team ever, in the history of motorsport.

[D-Type]

I think the post war 1955 Mercedes dominated F1 like no other team ever, in the history of motorsport.I think their ecord flatters them slightly. How much was the car, and how much the drivers? The classic combination a veteran at his prime (Fangio) and a hungry youngster (Moss). After all, they were beaten fair and square by Gonzalez and Hawthorn in 1954 and after they all failed to finish, by Trintigmant in 1955 (all in different models of Ferrari). At the extreme, take the 1954 Spanish GP - a four car front row and four different makes. I think it's rather like Schumacher and Ferrari in recent years - THE top driver in A top car.
They rank alongside the other cars that have been mentioned: the Alfa Romeo 158, the Ferrari 500, the Ferrari 156, the Mclarens in the 80's, the Williams in the 90's. Definitely a dominant car, but not necessarily "like no other team ever" - I think that title belongs to McLaren in the 80's, again with that combination of established veteran/rising star.

[Rollo]

It has to be the 1978 Lotus livery for me, just sheer elegance

The Lotus 79 oozes sexiness, as does the Lotus 98T for me.

In terms of a 100% success record, then that goes to the Brabham BT46B. 1 race, 1 win.

But the best overall ever F1 car surely has to be the Lotus 88 no? Here was a car that made other crew chief fill the underpants so quickly, that they had to get it banned before it ever saw a race.

The FIA records that the pole time was 1:35.079 (mainly because of rain), but Autosport for that week (and I wish I had a scanner) says that Mansell flew around in 1:31.996 which is just staggering.

[555-04Q2]

I think the post war 1955 Mercedes dominated F1 like no other team ever, in the history of motorsport.

Unfortunately, a little before my time so I cant argue with you :) Do you have a bit more info on the 55 Mercedes season and what made them so good :?:

[ArrowsFA1]

The FIA records that the pole time was 1:35.079 (mainly because of rain), but Autosport for that week (and I wish I had a scanner) says that Mansell flew around in 1:31.996 which is just staggering.
Are you sure? I remember reading that Elio de Angelis was relieved the car didn't get to race because the concept simply didn't work. Perhaps it may have done given time and testing.

[DezinerPaul]

1936 Auto Union

[futuretiger9]

Another one worth a mention would be the Williams FW07 series of 1979-1981. They were very functional, but extremely effective,and set the standards for the post-Lotus 79 ground effects machines. These cars suited the driving style of Alan Jones down to the ground.

[philipbain]

1936 Auto Union

Technically not a F1 car, it was a Grand Prix car for sure, but Formula 1 wasnt established until after the 2nd world war.

Dynamically one of my favourite F1 cars ever has to be the 1969 Matra MS80, the 1st F1 car designed specifically to use wings, they had previously been fitted to cars as an afterthought. The fact that it had been designed around the wings meant that it was strong and stiff enough to truely use the downforce on offer. It also had a feature unique to that car, load bearing structural fuel tanks, they gave the car a tremendous amount of ridgedity and were promptly banned by the FIA for 1970, though whether they actually posed a bigger safety risk is doubtful. This car fitted with the Ford DFV enabled Jackie Stewart to win his first title with Ken Tyrrel's team.

[Valve Bounce]

Unfortunately, a little before my time so I cant argue with you :) Do you have a bit more info on the 55 Mercedes season and what made them so good :?:

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/2051/Mercedes-Benz-W196-Streamliner.html

[Valve Bounce]

I think their ecord flatters them slightly. How much was the car, and how much the drivers? The classic combination a veteran at his prime (Fangio) and a hungry youngster (Moss). After all, they were beaten fair and square by Gonzalez and Hawthorn in 1954 and after they all failed to finish, by Trintigmant in 1955 (all in different models of Ferrari). At the extreme, take the 1954 Spanish GP - a four car front row and four different makes. I think it's rather like Schumacher and Ferrari in recent years - THE top driver in A top car.
They rank alongside the other cars that have been mentioned: the Alfa Romeo 158, the Ferrari 500, the Ferrari 156, the Mclarens in the 80's, the Williams in the 90's. Definitely a dominant car, but not necessarily "like no other team ever" - I think that title belongs to McLaren in the 80's, again with that combination of established veteran/rising star.

refer to link above, please.

[V12]

One thing to remember with the 1988 McLaren, and the 54-55 Mercedes, is that yes they were the best car out there and had brilliant records, but in both cases they had arguably the two best drivers in the world at the time driving them (in 1955 for the Merc anyway).

In terms of just measuring the car (or trying too anyway, as it's not an exact science), it has to be the 1992 Williams for me, in relative terms anyway.

In absolute terms, I would guess the fastest of the last of the 3-litre F1 cars (2005)?

[555-04Q2]

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/2051/Mercedes-Benz-W196-Streamliner.html

Thank you young man :up:

[D-Type]

refer to link above, please.Interesting, but it perpetuates the myth that Silverstone 1954 was down to Fangio being unable to see the wheels. For heaven's sake - the man raced sports cars suceesfully! The real reason for the Silverstone problems was probably that the Continental tyres were unpredictable in the intermittent light rain possibly exacerbated by an aerodynamic problem. An early example of 'spin' by the Mercedes PRO's

[futuretiger9]

One thing to remember with the 1988 McLaren, and the 54-55 Mercedes, is that yes they were the best car out there and had brilliant records, but in both cases they had arguably the two best drivers in the world at the time driving them (in 1955 for the Merc anyway).

In terms of just measuring the car (or trying too anyway, as it's not an exact science), it has to be the 1992 Williams for me, in relative terms anyway.

In absolute terms, I would guess the fastest of the last of the 3-litre F1 cars (2005)?

It would have been fascinating to see the 1988 McLaren in the hands of lesser drivers, as some sort of measure of how good the car really was. As it was, the car only raced for one season due to regulation changes.

[Rollo]

They still would have walked away with it.

There were only three top flight teams running turbos* (McLaren, Ferrari and Lotus) and whilst Lotus also shared the RA168 powerplant, but the aerodynamics of the car were terrible and they never corrected it.

*The others being Zakspeed, Arrows and Osella and of these only Arrows did much.

[futuretiger9]

They still would have walked away with it.

There were only three top flight teams running turbos* (McLaren, Ferrari and Lotus) and whilst Lotus also shared the RA168 powerplant, but the aerodynamics of the car were terrible and they never corrected it.


Yes, any car which was as fast as the McLarens would have been less reliable, and any car which was as reliable would finish at least a lap down.

[ioan]

Best F1 car ever has to be a close fight between the F2004 and this years champion car.

[fan-veteran]

The most powerful car - with BMW engine in 1986
The most technically advanced car - Williams 1992
The most aerodinamically effective car - ee, well, i don't know, :)

[philipbain]

The most powerful car - with BMW engine in 1986
The most technically advanced car - Williams 1992
The most aerodinamically effective car - ee, well, i don't know, :)

The 1993 Williams FW15C was even more technically advanced than the 1992 model, featuring ABS as well as active suspension, traction control, launch control and semi-auto gearbox with programmed downshifts. The Benetton from the same season also featured 4 wheel steering, the only F1 car I know if to have this feature.

For the most powerful, in terms of outright qualifying power then yes, the 1986 Benetton BMW gets the nod - interestingly not the Brabham-BMW of the same season, this used a "lay-down" version of the same engine which was frought with issues and was unable to match it's upright cousin. For average race power then it would be a toss-up betweent the Williams-Honda from 1986 and the BAR-Honda from 2005, both had in the region of 950BHP available in race conditions.

As for aero effectiveness, you could argue that a car such as the Williams FW08 from 1982 was fantastically effective aerodynamiocally with it's full ground effect body. Though in terms of outright aero efficiency then the latest kit is where its at.

[Valve Bounce]

I've changed my mind - it has to be the 2006 Honda; even bunsen could win in that car. :p :

[fan-veteran]

The 1993 Williams FW15C was even more technically advanced than the 1992 model, featuring ABS as well as active suspension, traction control, launch control and semi-auto gearbox with programmed downshifts. The Benetton from the same season also featured 4 wheel steering, the only F1 car I know if to have this feature.
Ohh, well, i really have forgotten that :) The Benetton from 1993 really had 4 wheel steering, thought it was implemented as i can remember towards the end of the season.