Pitting with the Safety Car

[Somebody]

I don't understand why frontrunners run in with the SC. Teams adopt quali strategies based on track position, where the need to not end up behind backmarkers at any point is paramount. And yet, they do something which, while possibly "quicker" in terms of race time, is almost guaranteed to boot them down the field.

Hell, if Alonso had done his stop/go behind the SC, he would have ended up 17th or 18th. He ended up 15th just by hanging on a couple of laps beyond the SC.

[Daika]

Why was Massa and Fisichella black flagged and Alonso not?

[ioan]

First of all the new SC pitting "rules" are a joke, and given that it's difficult to do something logical about it.
I wonder what were they thinking when they voted for this rule? :rolleyes:
The easiest and safest thing would be to pit them all under SC with no position gaining allowed. They all pit and rejoin in the same position. End of the story,

Secondly, those who pitted under SC were forced to do so because they were probably running out of fuel. And his the biggest problem with this SC rule, it's discriminatory, and making everything a lottery. Good for the viewers and bad for the competition and for sport itself.

[ioan]

Why was Massa and Fisichella black flagged and Alonso not?

Must be the rules. The biggest punishment for the smallest error. :rolleyes:

Question is why is that the cars are allowed to enter the pit lane but not to exit it? They aren't expecting them all to cue up at the pit exit, at least I hope so.

[Daika]

Mass, Fisichella, Alonso and Rosberg pitted when wasn;t allowed. How come Alonso and Rosberg are different?

[Somebody]

Mass, Fisichella, Alonso and Rosberg pitted when wasn;t allowed. How come Alonso and Rosberg are different?
Massa and Rosberg DIDN'T pit when they weren't allowed - they EXITED when they weren't allowed.

And anyone who remembers the accident here when... I think it was Alonso... exited the pits into a safety car train a couple of years back should realise why M&R were DQed.


Question is why is that the cars are allowed to enter the pit lane but not to exit it? They aren't expecting them all to cue up at the pit exit, at least I hope so.
Yes, they were expecting them all to queue at the pit exit. Just like they all do at the start of Q3.


The easiest and safest thing would be to pit them all under SC with no position gaining allowed. They all pit and rejoin in the same position. End of the story,
Which proceeds to %^&* everyone who had had all their pit-stops or weren't due to pit for umpteen laps.

[truefan72]

It's a very harsh rule for a non-racing infraction.

tHey exited the pit lane under red.

They should have been given a 10 Sec stop-and-go penalty IMO

I don't see where they gained an usnporting advantage in this scenario.
In any conceivable scenario, they were losing track position.

There is the letter of the law, and thew spirit of law. They chose the former

[Daika]

Exited isn't allowed? what kind of bogus rule is that!!! Yes let's stand still for a lap or so, 80 sec later, 2 laps later, or 3 laps later? what is the maximum they can keep a car still wothout overheating it?

Not to mention when you ran out of fuell, no pit stop but stop on track.

[Somebody]

It's a very harsh rule for a non-racing infraction.

tHey exited the pit lane under red.

They should have been given a 10 Sec stop-and-go penalty IMO

I don't see where they gained an usnporting advantage in this scenario.
In any conceivable scenario, they were losing track position.

There is the letter of the law, and thew spirit of law. They chose the former

It's a safety thing - the pit lane was closed because the train of cars behind the SC were about to pass the pit exit. Instead of trying to feed them into a stream of slow-moving, tightly-bunched cars, they hold them until the risk of accident has passed.


Exited isn't allowed? what kind of bogus rule is that!!! Yes let's stand still for a lap or so, 80 sec later, 2 laps later, or 3 laps later? what is the maximum they can keep a car still wothout overheating it?
Exiting isn't allowed IF YOU WILL RUN INTO THE CARS BEHIND THE SAFETY CAR. That's only a 20 second window, 30s at the outside.

[ioan]

So, you get 10 seconds stop for entering when no allowed and black flag when exiting. Nice rules FIA!

[ioan]

Which proceeds to %^&* everyone who had had all their pit-stops or weren't due to pit for umpteen laps.

No it doesn't %^&* anything, as I said they all keep their positions. It's a win win situation, if you think a bit about it.

[truefan72]

It's a safety thing - the pit lane was closed because the train of cars behind the SC were about to pass the pit exit. Instead of trying to feed them into a stream of slow-moving, tightly-bunched cars, they hold them until the risk of accident has passed.


Exiting isn't allowed IF YOU WILL RUN INTO THE CARS BEHIND THE SAFETY CAR. That's only a 20 second window, 30s at the outside.


Yes I hear you BUT

1. If they entered when it was green and then turned SC they would have been way behind the cars postioned ahead of them and joining the frey losing track postions

2. Even with the SC car out it takes at least half a lap for the cars to bunch up. Which means cars are still moving at a decent pace to bunch up. They would have exited and joined that slowing group in full knowledge that they werent' going to gain postions from their stop.

3. If anything, by holding them in the pit lane, adverserly affects their race, as ther is no guarantee that those cars passing them while they are stopped in the pit lane would come in ( could be on a one stop strategy) once the pitlane opens.

4. They should allow cars cought in the pitlane during as trhe SC comes out to exit normally and join the race in whatever postion that they feed into. droppoing no more than 8 cars or those that were 30sec behind them at the SC time.

[GridGirl]

Why are so many people slagging off the FIA for having a red light to prevent drivers from exiting the pitlane when the safety car is about to pass?

Did I just miss something in that race or did Trulli come out of the pits in a safty car period and crash pretty much straight away?

[Daika]

Black flagged, I thought they did something evil. Invading into another country, that sort of thing.

[ioan]

Why are so many people slagging off the FIA for having a red light to prevent drivers from exiting the pitlane when the safety car is about to pass?

The SC car was already by when they exited the pit lane, but th lights were still red because the FIA are a bunch of idiots that only think that if you manage to put afast car at the back of the field than you will get good racing and everyone will be happy.

The rules in F1 are made for the show and not for the sport, and are seriously damaging it!

[Somebody]

Safety Car Regs 2007 [Section 40 of the Sporting Regulations]. Relevant sections bolded, and elements of those sections are underlined (note that the penalty for entering a closed pit lane is specified, that for exiting under a red light is open to the stewards)

40) SAFETY CAR
40.1 The FIA safety car will be driven by an experienced circuit driver. It will carry an FIA observer capable of recognising all the competing cars, who is in permanent radio contact with race control.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.2 30 minutes before the start of the formation lap the safety car will take up position at the front of the grid and remain there until the five minute signal is given. At this point (except under 40.16 below) it will cover a whole lap of the circuit and enter the pit lane.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.3 The safety car may be brought into operation to neutralise a race upon the order of the clerk of the course. It will be used only if competitors or officials are in immediate physical danger but the circumstances are not such as to necessitate suspending the race.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.4 When the order is given to deploy the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" will be displayed on the timing monitors and all marshal's posts will display waved yellow flags and "SC" boards for the duration of the intervention.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.5 The safety car will start from the pit lane with its orange lights illuminated and will join the track regardless of where the race leader is.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.6 From the time at which the "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" message is displayed no car may enter the pit lane for the purpose of refuelling until all cars on the track have formed up in a line behind the safety car and the message "PIT LANE OPEN" is shown on the timing monitors. A ten second time penalty (see Article 16.3b) will be imposed on any driver who enters the pit lane and whose car is refuelled before the second message is shown on the timing monitors. However, any car which was in the pit entry or pit lane when the safety car was deployed will not incur a penalty.

If it is deemed necessary for the safety car to use the pit lane (see 40.11 below) cars following it will not incur a penalty but may not stop in their designated garage areas for the purpose of refuelling until the message "PIT LANE OPEN" is shown on the timing monitors. A ten second time penalty will be imposed on any driver who stops in his designated garage area and whose car is refuelled before the second message is shown on the timing monitors.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.7 Any car being driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or which is deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time whilst the safety car is deployed will be reported to the stewards. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.8 All competing cars must then form up in line behind the safety car no more than 5 car lengths apart and overtaking, with the following exceptions, is forbidden until the cars reach the Line after the safety car has returned to the pits. Overtaking will be permitted under the following circumstances :
- if a car is signalled to do so from the safety car ;
- under 40.16 below ;
- any car entering the pits may pass another car or the safety car remaining on the track after it has crossed the first safety car line ;
- any car leaving the pits may be overtaken by another car on the track before it crosses the second safety car line ;
- when the safety car is returning to the pits it may be overtaken by cars on the track once it has crossed the first safety car line ;
- any car stopping in its designated garage area whilst the safety car is using the pit lane (see 40.11 below) may be overtaken ;
- if any car slows with an obvious problem.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.9 When ordered to do so by the clerk of the course the observer in the car will use a green light to signal to any cars between it and the race leader that they should pass. These cars will continue at reduced speed and without overtaking until they reach the line of cars behind the safety car.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.10 The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him.

Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within 5 car lengths of it (except under 40.13 below) and all remaining cars must keep the formation as tight as possible.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.11 Subject to the requirements of 40.6 above, whilst the safety car is in operation, competing cars may enter the pit lane, but may only rejoin the track when the green light at the end of the pit lane is on. It will be on at all times except when the safety car and the line of cars following it are about to pass or are passing the pit exit. A car rejoining the track must proceed at an appropriate speed until it reaches the end of the line of cars behind the safety car.

Under certain circumstances the clerk of the course may ask the safety car to use the pit lane. In these cases, and provided it’s orange lights remain illuminated, all cars must follow it into the pit lane without overtaking. Subject to the requirements of 40.6 above, any car entering the pit lane under these circumstances may stop at its designated garage area.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.12 When the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" is shown on the timing monitors, any lapped cars which were between the cars running on the lead lap at the time the safety car was deployed (and also remain in that position) will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car. They must then proceed around the track at an appropriate speed, without overtaking, and take up position at the back of the line of cars behind the safety car.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.13 When the clerk of the course calls in the safety car, it must extinguish its orange lights, this will be the signal to the drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.

At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than five car lengths behind it. As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.14 Each lap completed while the safety car is deployed will be counted as a race lap.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.15 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]
40.16 In exceptional circumstances the race may be started behind the safety car. In this case, at any time before the one minute signal its orange lights will be turned on. This is the signal to the drivers that the race will be started behind the safety car. When the green lights are illuminated the safety car will leave the grid with all cars following in grid order no more than 5 car lengths apart. There will be no formation lap and race will start when the green lights are illuminated.

Overtaking, during the first lap only, is permitted if a car is delayed when leaving its grid position and cars behind cannot avoid passing it without unduly delaying the remainder of the field. In this case, drivers may only overtake to re-establish the original starting order.

Any driver who is delayed leaving the grid may not overtake another moving car if he was stationary after the remainder of the cars had crossed the Line, and must form up at the back of the line of cars behind the safety car. If more than one driver is affected, they must form up at the back of the field in the order they left the grid.

Either of the penalties under Articles 16.3a) or b) will be imposed on any driver who, in the opinion of the Stewards, unnecessarily overtook another car during the first lap.[/*:m:8xdkkh02]

[ioan]

There is no mention of black flag penalty in the rules!

[GridGirl]

The SC car was already by when they exited the pit lane, but th lights were still red because the FIA are a bunch of idiots that only think that if you manage to put afast car at the back of the field than you will get good racing and everyone will be happy.

The rules in F1 are made for the show and not for the sport, and are seriously damaging it!

I seriously think your toally missing my point Ioan.

Trulli exited the pits when the light was on green. He wasn't breaking the rules by doing so. My point was, he exited the pits and crashed straight away during a safety car period. If the safety car or any other f1 cars would of been there, the accident would of been much more serious.

The FIA rule seem's to be a pretty decent one if you ask me on the basis of what actually did occur in todays race.

[Corny]

at least it gave some excitement in today's race

[keysersoze]

2. Even with the SC car out it takes at least half a lap for the cars to bunch up. Which means cars are still moving at a decent pace to bunch up. They would have exited and joined that slowing group in full knowledge that they werent' going to gain postions from their stop.

Precisely. When Giancarlo exited I didn't see a train of cars. He gained nothing by it.

Even so, IMO the only reason to be excluded from a GP during the race is if:

1) you have a car that is deemed dangerous to drive, dangerous for either the driver, others drivers, or spectators.

2) failure to heed a black flag for a driving infraction

Fans of international driving series often deride the North American series--NASCAR, CCWS, and the IRL--for "bogus" yellows that adversly affect the "sporting" nature of the event. It seems as if the governing body hasn't sufficiently thought the SC scenarios through, because excluding these two drivers seems a draconian interpretation of the rules.

[jens]

I have said it before that I really can't stand those SC rules. Twunt of the race - the SC rules. :down: Hope they'll be soon changed back to the previous ones.

If Hamilton's and Heidfeld's stints had been longer (they managed to make their stops right before SC's), Wurz would have won the race...

[ioan]

I seriously think your toally missing my point Ioan.

Trulli exited the pits when the light was on green. He wasn't breaking the rules by doing so. My point was, he exited the pits and crashed straight away during a safety car period. If the safety car or any other f1 cars would of been there, the accident would of been much more serious.

The FIA rule seem's to be a pretty decent one if you ask me on the basis of what actually did occur in todays race.

Well as we saw GF and FM aren't complete idiots and didn't bin it like JT.

All I am saying is that the current rules are made to artificially produce action putting faster cars at the end of the field through rules like the SC rules.

How is that NR and FA were allowed to quit the pit lane when they were not even allowed to enter it? Why wasn't the light red at that moment too? After all the SC was on track and cars were going by when they came out!

These SC rules made a complete mockery of todays race, place were lost and gained without correlation to driving.

Luckily we don't have SC every race or the whole Championship would be a joke and Honda might be at the top of it.

[GridGirl]

But they could just have easily have done so. Just because two driver's didn't crash, doesn't mean every one wont. Trulli proved that.

[ioan]

But they could just have easily have done so. Just because two driver's didn't crash, doesn't mean every one wont. Trulli proved that.

You have a good point there. Toyota should fire Trulli! :p :

[Robinho]

but GF and FM strolled past the red light which was obeyed by Kubica and turned green a few seconds later, it was their mistake and they were punished. it was the same rule effectiveley that Montoya got caught out by the other year at the same race.

the rules doesn't artificially put cars to the back of the field, it prevents cars racing through the pits during their stop to gain positions or joining the snake and jostling for position. the cars don't lose anything as they aren't allowed to pass anyway, they have to rejoin at the back of the snake.

any safety car rules have the effect of punishing some and rewarding others regardless of skill or driving skill.

i actually understand them at the moment though, you can't pit at the start of the period as that is the most dangerous on track and you don't want a lot of drivers attempting to catch up the snake when they potentially have not been past the seen of the accident. there is always a risk under any safety car pittting rules ath someone will gain/lose from either pitting before or just at the right time as the event, but i don't think any of the safety car interventions were unwarraned today.

how do you know NR and FA were allowed to exit the pit, they may have waited at the red light and then proceeded, i don't know? FM and GF were allowed to leave, they just did it about 5-10 seconds before they should have done, not something which would have compromised them one bit if they had obeyed the rules as they would have rejoined in the same place, whereas ignoring them lost them everything

[jens]

About Alonso and Rosberg. Maybe they NEEDED to pit and they were running out of fuel. So when the SC comes out at a wront moment, you have a wonderful dilemma: run out of fuel and retire or drop to the back of the grid with a 10-second penalty. No surprise that they are forced to use option two...

This shows again, how unfair these SC rules are...

[Somebody]

but GF and FM strolled past the red light which was obeyed by Kubica and turned green a few seconds later, it was their mistake and they were punished. it was the same rule effectiveley that Montoya got caught out by the other year at the same race.

the rules doesn't artificially put cars to the back of the field, it prevents cars racing through the pits during their stop to gain positions or joining the snake and jostling for position. the cars don't lose anything as they aren't allowed to pass anyway, they have to rejoin at the back of the snake.

any safety car rules have the effect of punishing some and rewarding others regardless of skill or driving skill.

i actually understand them at the moment though, you can't pit at the start of the period as that is the most dangerous on track and you don't want a lot of drivers attempting to catch up the snake when they potentially have not been past the seen of the accident. there is always a risk under any safety car pittting rules ath someone will gain/lose from either pitting before or just at the right time as the event, but i don't think any of the safety car interventions were unwarraned today.
Exactly. Thank you.


About Alonso and Rosberg. Maybe they NEEDED to pit and they were running out of fuel. So when the SC comes out at a wront moment, you have a wonderful dilemma: run out of fuel and retire or drop to the back of the grid with a 10-second penalty. No surprise that they are forced to use option two...

This shows again, how unfair these SC rules are...
Or, alternatively, they shouldn't wait until the very last second to pit, ESPECIALLY on a track with a long history of Safety Car deployments like Canada or Monaco.

If you make sure you have a lap and a half of fuel left when you intend to pit, you're covered for the situation you describe. Otherwise, you risk a Stop/Go penalty. It's not an unforseeable risk.

[jonny hurlock]

First of all the new SC pitting "rules" are a joke, and given that it's difficult to do something logical about it.
I wonder what were they thinking when they voted for this rule? :rolleyes:
The easiest and safest thing would be to pit them all under SC with no position gaining allowed. They all pit and rejoin in the same position. End of the story,

Secondly, those who pitted under SC were forced to do so because they were probably running out of fuel. And his the biggest problem with this SC rule, it's discriminatory, and making everything a lottery. Good for the viewers and bad for the competition and for sport itself.

totaly agree with you, they just copping the champ car rules,

'Max we are F1 not Champ Car or IRL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

they sould just change the rules to last year, also fisi and massa are right to get black flag, forgot montreal 05 montoya black flag same thing, one rule for all, but the differnce safety car was past long time ago compere to 05, so its race control problem.

[Robinho]

i think there is a set amount of time that passes before the light turns green, they missed it by only a few seconds that they could have waited, like some others who chose to obey the rule did

[Viktory]

The new SC rules are a joke and I hope they are removed as soon as possible.

[Somebody]

The new SC rules are a joke and I hope they are removed as soon as possible.
Okay, reasons why. "are a joke" is not a reason.

[stevewf1]

It does seem very unfair that if the safety car comes out just before you are due to stop then your race is screwed. You can understand why McLaren employed the tactics that they did in Monaco when you see the effects it had today. In American racing Safety Cars are part of the show so it is more or less the same for everybody as they all are fuelled to similar levels at the start. In F1, with so many diverse strategies it doesnt work the same. The whole new SC procedures in F1 this season are a complete farce.

[truefan72]

Precisely. When Giancarlo exited I didn't see a train of cars. He gained nothing by it.

Even so, IMO the only reason to be excluded from a GP during the race is if:

1) you have a car that is deemed dangerous to drive, dangerous for either the driver, others drivers, or spectators.

2) failure to heed a black flag for a driving infraction

Fans of international driving series often deride the North American series--NASCAR, CCWS, and the IRL--for "bogus" yellows that adversly affect the "sporting" nature of the event. It seems as if the governing body hasn't sufficiently thought the SC scenarios through, because excluding these two drivers seems a draconian interpretation of the rules.

well said

[truefan72]

There is no mention of black flag penalty in the rules!

exactly, and just becuase they got it wrong with Montoya doesn't mean that they should get it wronmg in this case. A bit absurd really when you consider that Trulli basically caused RK to crash and doesn't get a thing, but 2 drivers get black flagged for leaving the pits 2-3 seconds early.

[ShiftingGears]

exactly, and just becuase they got it wrong with Montoya doesn't mean that they should get it wronmg in this case. A bit absurd really when you consider that Trulli basically caused RK to crash and doesn't get a thing, but 2 drivers get black flagged for leaving the pits 2-3 seconds early.

How did he cause Kubica to crash? I failed to see this. It looked like Kubica messing that one up.

[PSfan]

The SC car was already by when they exited the pit lane, but th lights were still red because the FIA are a bunch of idiots that only think that if you manage to put afast car at the back of the field than you will get good racing and everyone will be happy.

The rules in F1 are made for the show and not for the sport, and are seriously damaging it!

this was pretty much my view of the incident until I got a chance to review the race on my pvr, it would seem a red bull or torro rosso was straggling behind, and was why the pit exit was red lighted, but despite not seeing the red light, Massa still exited well behind whoever it was.

Should also note, that because Kubica had come full stop, the Toyota that managed to cause his accident a few minutes later was able to get ahead.

If the drivers are trusted to exit pit lane and join in when cars are going full speed during green flag racing, why are they forced to stop during a sc period, the logic to it just isn't coming to me at this moment...

[ioan]

If the drivers are trusted to exit pit lane and join in when cars are going full speed during green flag racing, why are they forced to stop during a sc period, the logic to it just isn't coming to me at this moment...

The logic? That's simple: "money makes the world go around" or something along those lines.

Go ask Bernie what is important for him? Money!
Where does money come from? TV rights!
What is the thing that TV rights amounts depend on? Viewing rates?
And viewing rates depend on? Show!
And the viewing rates aren't about you and me or any other person who watched F1 for decades and who sees what a miserable state F1 is at the moment compared to 15 years ago. Because if they cared about us they would have done those changes we all asked for in their survey. :\

There's the logic of the whole thing.
The FIA were watching some North American racing and decided that it's really an easy way to send the fast ones to the end of the pack and than watch him go through to the top. So we got this idiotic SC rule.
But they forgot to change some other rules too, just in case passing is close to impossible in F1 (unless you are T.Sato :up: ).

For a change even Ron D agrees with me :D :

"This is something that has been raised by the Grand Prix Drivers' Association as being unfair on drivers because it is out of the teams' control.

"It is one of those changes that was made for good reasons but has had too much of a repercussion on this race and will have on other races.

"I hope the FIA and the other teams will learn from today and that we can do a mid-season regulatory change to avoid penalising other drivers in the future, because it could be anybody caught out by it."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59664

[PSfan]

I don't really but that explanation Ioan, problem is, even if they don't get bunched up at pit exit, they will all bunch up when they catch up with the safety car again. so I still see no advantage to stopping them at pit exit, the new rules forcing them to wait till everyone is bunched up behind the safety car will also prevent them from re-entering in the middle of the train unless there are some major repairs, and still nothing is gained or lossed because lapped cars are allowed to pass the train before the race go green again anyways.

But to illustrate my previous points, I've taken a few screen caps from my pvr, they are crappy, but oh well:

http://www.illucid.org/Upload/massaexit.jpg

In this image we have Massa clearly coming down pit lane while the strangling RBR (at least thats what I think it is by the image, wasn't much clearer on my 27inch tv...) cruises by the pit lane exit... So there wasn't much need for the red light in the first place...

http://www.illucid.org/Upload/kubwait.jpg

Here we have Robert waiting for the green light as we see a Toyota coming up from behind, and Kimi just exiting his pit box.

http://www.illucid.org/Upload/toyakub.jpg

Oh look, rejoining the track, the Toyota in now ahead of Kubica, while Kimi is right behind, and I'm not sure who the other two is

http://www.illucid.org/Upload/kubtoy.jpg

And finally, here we have Kubica trying to regain that position (I had tried to circle the incident, but photoshop didn't keep my circle...) I tried to capture it when I believed there was some contact (think some tires touching cause a slight hop from the BMW which sent him off track, but even if there wasn't, that Toyota shouldn't have been there to in the first place to contribute to the carnage that would take place seconds later!!!)

[keysersoze]

Great job PSfan

[ClarkFan]

Interesting pictures, PSfan (I missed this section of the race with a couple of small crises). I assume that passing on the pit lane is likewise against the rules. Even if any Trulli-Kubica contact was purely a racing indicent, Trulli should be facing sanction for passing on the pit lane.

ClarkFan

[PSfan]

For a change even Ron D agrees with me :D :

"This is something that has been raised by the Grand Prix Drivers' Association as being unfair on drivers because it is out of the teams' control.

"It is one of those changes that was made for good reasons but has had too much of a repercussion on this race and will have on other races.

"I hope the FIA and the other teams will learn from today and that we can do a mid-season regulatory change to avoid penalising other drivers in the future, because it could be anybody caught out by it."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59664

Sorry, but I make it a rule to NEVER agree with Ron Dennis, even if he's right sometimes, but this is utter nonesense...

The new rules where partly put in place because of McLeran, anyone recall Monty slowing up the field during a safety car so that Kimi could pit and leave before Monty was even entering pit lane?

Unless you pull a McLeran, one driver will always get the shaft during a SC because you can't work on both cars at the same time, no rule change will fix that. At least the current rules doesn't allow any grey area where a teams 2nd car can slow the field up, should that happen the pit lane just doesn't open.


Great job PSfan

Not that good, when describing the first pic, I meant to say "straggling" not strangling, but I'm sure perhaps Mark after running so high, having to finish outside the points, maybe he does want to strangle his RBR :p :

[PSfan]

Interesting pictures, PSfan (I missed this section of the race with a couple of small crises). I assume that passing on the pit lane is likewise against the rules. Even if any Trulli-Kubica contact was purely a racing indicent, Trulli should be facing sanction for passing on the pit lane.

ClarkFan


Well the stewards might have decided to investigate the situation eventually, but perhaps Trulli managed to take himself out before they had a chance to look at it :p :

Of course there might be the possibility that Trulli gave back the position before the race restarted, and passed Kubica after the green flag, but I didn't see it, so I can only assume that Trulli didn't return the position based on the captures I did get.

[aryan]

Exited isn't allowed? what kind of bogus rule is that!!! Yes let's stand still for a lap or so, 80 sec later, 2 laps later, or 3 laps later? what is the maximum they can keep a car still wothout overheating it?



The exit light is only red when the security car is around the pit area. It doesn not stay red for the whole SC duration.

Fisichella and Massa should have waited. As did Kubica.

[GridGirl]

If the drivers are trusted to exit pit lane and join in when cars are going full speed during green flag racing, why are they forced to stop during a sc period, the logic to it just isn't coming to me at this moment...

I'm not absolutely certain but I think the pitlane light turns blue to warn them that there are cars near the pitlane exit when they are exiting during normal racing. Driver's do know there are other cars about, you just can't tell that they've taken heed of the warning when they hammer out fighting for position.

[aryan]

Great pics PSfan.

Interesting to see Truli overtake in the pit lane. Poor Kubica! :(

[aryan]

I actually like the current SC rules.

I know there is a good possibility that they will get changed based on today's race, but honestly a SC situation is always going to be advantegous to some and disadvantegous to others. No rule change can fix that.

The only problem i see with these rules is when a car doens't have enough fuel to circle around behind SC before waiting for the pit lane to re-open (a la FA, Nico). And that can easily be calculated into the strategies. As has been pointed out, in circuits whith high probability of SC, if teams make a pit stop when there is two more laps worth of fuel in the car, they are covered; i.e., they shoud alway pit two laps earilier.

[ioan]

I know there is a good possibility that they will get changed based on today's race, but honestly a SC situation is always going to be advantegous to some and disadvantegous to others. No rule change can fix that.

But running out of fuel cause you don't have the right to pit is simply stupid, no matter how you look at it!

[Ranger]

But running out of fuel cause you don't have the right to pit is simply stupid, no matter how you look at it!

I agree 100%. Whilst yesterday it contributed to some great entertainment, this new safety car rule of waiting 2 laps before entry rule does nothing but artificially toss up the racing, and is entirely unjust and unnecessary. Just about the only thing worse or more artificial than this rule would be reverse grids, god forbid. This rule needs to be changed, lickety split, as there is no point in a rule that has to be broken to assure the continuation of racing for some.

[ioan]

They mention in the rules that the SC could go through the pit lane if needed, so why they just don't impose that every time there is a SC period?
This way they could all go in and refuel and change tires without any problem.

They should also let them have 1 pit crew per car so that all that cars could pit in the same time, there is enough space in the pit lane for that if needed.
This way no one would be disadvantaged and good pit work and strategy might gain a few positions.

No disadvantage to anyone, those who already pitted are not required to do it again unless they want to, and they gain position while the others pit, those who are on another strategy and want to pit even later can opt out don't pit and gain places.

No stupid "not allowed to pit unless you want a penalty" and no need for over lengthy red light at the end of the pit lane.

But for this the FIA need to think about the racing and about the real fans not about Bernie's show and TV rights money.

[jens]

Dennis urges safety car rule change
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39587

Please FIA - what faster you change the rule, that better it is!! As I have already somewhere before said that with those SC rules basically anyone can win, depending on coincidences...

[schmenke]

They mention in the rules that the SC could go through the pit lane if needed, so why they just don't impose that every time there is a SC period?
This way they could all go in and refuel and change tires without any problem...

Now that would result in chaos.

The purpose of that regulation is to allow the SC to bypass an incident on the front straight. I would imagine that this would be done only in an extreme case.

[wmcot]

but GF and FM strolled past the red light which was obeyed by Kubica and turned green a few seconds later, it was their mistake and they were punished. it was the same rule effectiveley that Montoya got caught out by the other year at the same race.

But didn't JPM get a 10 sec. stop-and-go penalty instead of a black flag? That's how I remember it.

[wmcot]

Interesting pictures, PSfan (I missed this section of the race with a couple of small crises). I assume that passing on the pit lane is likewise against the rules. Even if any Trulli-Kubica contact was purely a racing indicent, Trulli should be facing sanction for passing on the pit lane.

ClarkFan

If you watch the race again, KR also passed a RedBull at the same time while leaving the pits! How come nobody caught these penalties? Are they using NHL officials??? :)

[Ranger]

But didn't JPM get a 10 sec. stop-and-go penalty instead of a black flag? That's how I remember it.

Nah, he was definitely black-flagged.

[Somebody]

But didn't JPM get a 10 sec. stop-and-go penalty instead of a black flag? That's how I remember it.

Black-flagged: http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr739.html


When Montoya did come in, he was no doubt a little emotional. He had through no fault of his own just lost what looked like being a victory. Rather than putting his head down and trying to fix the problem Montoya then compounded the problem by driving through a red light at the end of the pitlane. That was "Game Over" for Monty. The FIA Stewards duly announced that he be black-flagged.
QED.


Now that would result in chaos.

The purpose of that regulation is to allow the SC to bypass an incident on the front straight. I would imagine that this would be done only in an extreme case.
Yeah, it's a direct result of The Ralf Incident at Indy 2004 (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr722.html).

[ioan]

Now that would result in chaos.

because having them pit all at the same time under the old SC rule was chaotic? I don't remember them having any problem with that.

[schmenke]

Can you imagine having dozens of pit crew members working on their respective cars as the SC train is passing through...?

[ioan]

Can you imagine having dozens of pit crew members working on their respective cars as the SC train is passing through...?

Yes I can.
Dozens of pit crew members work on the cars while other cars are going by also in normal pit stop circumstances. ;)

The SC could also go well under the normal pit lane speed limit, make it easier for pitting cars to rejoin in the places left by other cars.

[Flat.tyres]

whats tyhe problem? the drivers know that you dont exit the pit lane until the light is green. its not rocket science is it? Christ, even most idiots on the road understand this one.

The rules are the same for everyone. i really dont see a problem with the rules for entering the pit lane under safty or exiting it.

[Roamy]

it is a bullsh!t rule we have lived with the safety car or full course yellow for years. I can take a competitive runner and turn them into junk for the remainder of the race. But when you have losers making rules then tend to go against the winners. of couse unless they are paid under the table.

[schmenke]

Yes I can.
Dozens of pit crew members work on the cars while other cars are going by also in normal pit stop circumstances. ;)

The SC could also go well under the normal pit lane speed limit, make it easier for pitting cars to rejoin in the places left by other cars.

The idea of a train of cars going through the pit lane lap after lap doesn't strike me as prudent :s

[ioan]

The rules are the same for everyone. i really dont see a problem with the rules for entering the pit lane under safty or exiting it.

Maybe if you were a driver that would be running out of fuel because the new rules doesn't allow you to pit, you would understand the problem. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

The idea of a train of cars going through the pit lane lap after lap doesn't strike me as prudent :s

Than only for 1 lap when everyone will be allowed to make a pitstop, depends on them if they chose to do it or not.

[Flat.tyres]

Maybe if you were a driver that would be running out of fuel because the new rules doesn't allow you to pit, you would understand the problem. :rolleyes:

theres no point just bitching about it though as they are the same for everyone. this is not some unfair rule but one that was written fairly to discriminate against nobody.

The rule for entering the pit was made so that it was fair for everyone. usually, its noi problem but it was unfortunate that 2 cars were due to pit that lap. tough titties but thats the breaks.

as for exiting the pits then its bloody obvious. theres a red light there for a reason and no driver, sitting in a stationary car, has any excuse for jumping it. Basic, basic mistake!!! Any driver that jumps a red deserves to get Blacked as he is potentially putting other drivers, spectators and Marshalls lives at risk. there could have been a very good reason for that light still being on that the drivers didn't know about but they chose to ignore it.

moaning about this rule is silly. some times, they work in your favour and some times you get a tough break but its futile to go on about it in hindsight like this.

the same people moaning would probably moan if their favorite driver picked up a puncture from a bit of debris and call the FIA all the names under the sun for not stopping the race and licking the track clean :rolleyes:

so, basically, if I were a driver, i would accept i was unlucky and get the hell on with it.

[truefan72]

I think people are focusing too much on the wrong thing with this SC rule. It isn't the rule itself that I necessarily have a problem with ( even though it could use some tweeking) it is the accompanying penalty to that rule that get's me annoyed.

Black Flagging a car for what seems like a minor transgression with little or no impact on the race itself seems a bit absurd.

1. Considering that you allow a car to run most of the race with a defective rear wing ( unsafe for both the driver and surrounding cars, would have been called in, in other racing leagues)

2. Overtaking on pit lane with no reprecaution

3. Causing a violent and potentially deadly accident.

4. Cutting through the grass "several times" on the same spot

etc. etc. etc.

at best that infraction should be a 10 sec: stop and go penalty.
That's where the real injustice is, IMO

[ioan]

theres no point just bitching about it though as they are the same for everyone. this is not some unfair rule but one that was written fairly to discriminate against nobody.

The rule for entering the pit was made so that it was fair for everyone. usually, its noi problem but it was unfortunate that 2 cars were due to pit that lap. tough titties but thats the breaks.

as for exiting the pits then its bloody obvious. theres a red light there for a reason and no driver, sitting in a stationary car, has any excuse for jumping it. Basic, basic mistake!!! Any driver that jumps a red deserves to get Blacked as he is potentially putting other drivers, spectators and Marshalls lives at risk. there could have been a very good reason for that light still being on that the drivers didn't know about but they chose to ignore it.

moaning about this rule is silly. some times, they work in your favour and some times you get a tough break but its futile to go on about it in hindsight like this.

the same people moaning would probably moan if their favorite driver picked up a puncture from a bit of debris and call the FIA all the names under the sun for not stopping the race and licking the track clean :rolleyes:

so, basically, if I were a driver, i would accept i was unlucky and get the hell on with it.

Some people seem to accept whatever the providence gives them. Good for them.

Others would like to get what they deserve rather than what just comes with the luck. These are the real fighters, and this rule isn't for them but for the former ones and for the show need of people who don't understand F1's philosophy.

[Flat.tyres]

Some people seem to accept whatever the providence gives them. Good for them.

Others would like to get what they deserve rather than what just comes with the luck. These are the real fighters, and this rule isn't for them but for the former ones and for the show need of people who don't understand F1's philosophy.

anyone living in some dream state where everythings fair is about as far removed from motor racing as Bill clinton is from the virgin Mary.

theres nothing wrong with the rule. rules are rules and sometimes they work in your favour and othertimes no.

its a bit childish and immature to expect some perfect world where everyone gets exactly what they deserve.

[raphael123]

I think the red light at the end of the pitstop is fine. You ignore it, your disqualified. You have to be pretty stupid not to notice a bright red light though. Montoya did it in 2005, and apart from the Montoya fans, I don't remember people sticking up for him, it was accepted he broke the rules, and got DQ - end of. Now we see the Ferrari fans moaning about how unfair it is lol.

However the fact you can't pit when the SC is deployed is ridiculous! The rules were changed for a good reason, but it should be changed to how it use to be. The only thing which is better now is that you don't have the backmarkers in the ways.

I hope Ron is listened to - as he is spot on with what he has said.

[aryan]

Than only for 1 lap when everyone will be allowed to make a pitstop, depends on them if they chose to do it or not.

Then always run with 2 extra laps worth of fuel on board.

And take the lap-time penalty.

you are making a big fuss out of nothing. There is nothing wrong with the rules.

[raphael123]

I think Ioan is simply critizising any rule which disadvantaged Ferrari, nothing to do with the fact it's unfair. Saying that, if he was sticking up for Montoya in 05 I guess I'm wrong.

[jens]

If SC had been deployed a bit earlier, then Hamilton and Heidfeld would have suffered from the SC rules too and Wurz and Kovalainen would have finished first and second. Who would say that these were accurate results as they were practically backmarkers before SC's?!

I can't stand such rules, which try to destroy the races of top runners. How can you find it fair that those, who lead, are dropped to the back just because their planned pitstop times happen to be at a "wrong moment" compared to SC periods, which can't be predicted. One guy pits and the guy who was a lap ahead of him, drops behind him, just because he pits a few laps later and SC has appeared.

IMO the best ones should finish in front, not the luckiest ones! If a midfieldes wins thanks to others driver errors and mechanical errors, then it's OK. But if a midfielder wins thanks to a stupid rule that top teams can't take into consideration and they can do nothing against it however flawlessly they perform, then it's totally unjust.

I'm afraid FIA won't change the rules before a Spyker-like team wins a race... maybe then they realise that something should be changed...

[PSfan]

Sorry if I get a little carried away but WHAT!!!

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the current safety car procedure except a DQ for ignoring the red light... the punishment does not fit the crime. I see nothing dangerous about entering the track while the cars are going at SC speeds, I don't care who is where on the track...

And no matter what Mr. Dennis says, waiting for the whole field to catch up to the safety car before opening the pits is still the fairest way to do things EVERY OTHER MAJOR RACING SERIES DOES IT!!! and no-own moans about it!!!

Alonso getting the 10 sec penalty because he couldn't stay out is ironic considering after Monaco the "Our cars came in sooner then they had to, not just Hamilton, but Alonso could have stayed out longer to..." Hey Ron, why chance it in Montreal???

ANY team who are risking running out, and are forced with the choice of a DNF or a 10 sec stop and go... Better take the penalty!!! or be labeled the dumbest F#$^S in F1!!!

Having a SC come out at an in-oportune time is called bad luck, and drivers should be so lucky as to only recieve a 10 sec penalty for some bad luck. I dare suggest Davidson's bad luck beaver probably cost him at least 10 secs of repairs, and don't get me started on Kubica's bad luck!!!

I still remember the farce that was Montoya holding up the field during a safewty car period... Ron can go to ......

[wmcot]

Sorry if I get a little carried away but WHAT!!!

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the current safety car procedure except a DQ for ignoring the red light... the punishment does not fit the crime.

I agree. It should be a 10 second stop-and-go. It's about as ridiculous as JPM being black flagged at Indy in 2004 after he had run about 2/3 of the race for not leaving the grid within 15 seconds when his car didn't start. I'm not a JPM fan, but that rule is just as dumb as the DQ for the pit red light rule.

[Flat.tyres]

I agree. It should be a 10 second stop-and-go. It's about as ridiculous as JPM being black flagged at Indy in 2004 after he had run about 2/3 of the race for not leaving the grid within 15 seconds when his car didn't start. I'm not a JPM fan, but that rule is just as dumb as the DQ for the pit red light rule.

i can only think that some people here have no concept of what the pedigree, history and ethos of racing entails. im not talking about F1 but all racing.

we are taught that the most important thing in racing is that if its red, you stop. Red flag, red light, it doesn't matter. RED IS BLOODY RED!!!

if there was 1 commandement in mororsport as there are 10 in the Bible it is that for the safty of you and everyone else, if you see red, you know not to ignore it. Its worse than fighting after a prang.

sorry for harping on about this but its the most basic you can get. there are no ifs and buts, it's written in stone.

has anyone else raced that can back me up here because i feel like im bangin my balls agains a wall here. if I ignored a red, i would expect the least that would happen is disqualification and more likely end up in the C of C office getting my arse whipped.

[ioan]

i can only think that some people here have no concept of what the pedigree, history and ethos of racing entails. im not talking about F1 but all racing.

we are taught that the most important thing in racing is that if its red, you stop. Red flag, red light, it doesn't matter. RED IS BLOODY RED!!!

if there was 1 commandement in mororsport as there are 10 in the Bible it is that for the safty of you and everyone else, if you see red, you know not to ignore it. Its worse than fighting after a prang.

sorry for harping on about this but its the most basic you can get. there are no ifs and buts, it's written in stone.

has anyone else raced that can back me up here because i feel like im bangin my balls agains a wall here. if I ignored a red, i would expect the least that would happen is disqualification and more likely end up in the C of C office getting my arse whipped.

I think you might just be pushing things a bit to far with all that racing ethos of yours. :rolleyes:

[PSfan]

i can only think that some people here have no concept of what the pedigree, history and ethos of racing entails. im not talking about F1 but all racing.

we are taught that the most important thing in racing is that if its red, you stop. Red flag, red light, it doesn't matter. RED IS BLOODY RED!!!

if there was 1 commandement in mororsport as there are 10 in the Bible it is that for the safty of you and everyone else, if you see red, you know not to ignore it. Its worse than fighting after a prang.

sorry for harping on about this but its the most basic you can get. there are no ifs and buts, it's written in stone.

has anyone else raced that can back me up here because i feel like im bangin my balls agains a wall here. if I ignored a red, i would expect the least that would happen is disqualification and more likely end up in the C of C office getting my arse whipped.


Whats the penalty for a jump start? A DQ if you happen to go when all 5 lights are red? NO ITS A STOP AND GO PENALTY!!!

[wmcot]

i can only think that some people here have no concept of what the pedigree, history and ethos of racing entails. im not talking about F1 but all racing.

F1 has ethos?? When did that happen? I thought F1 was totally defined and ruled by money and DQ's don't really have much crowd appeal...

[Flat.tyres]

Whats the penalty for a jump start? A DQ if you happen to go when all 5 lights are red? NO ITS A STOP AND GO PENALTY!!!if you dont know, there are many ways to start a race. in f1 when the lights go off, then the race is underway which is why a flashing light catches the attention.

if you want to be ****ing pedantic then go ahead but you obviously have no idea what the hell you are on about.

ioan and wm. if you choose to read my post, you will see that i am talking about motor racing as a sport. ethos is the right word.

whatever. go back to cuckoo land and stick to the back pages of the Sun.

[ioan]

if you dont know, there are many ways to start a race. in f1 when the lights go off, then the race is underway which is why a flashing light catches the attention.

if you want to be ****ing pedantic then go ahead but you obviously have no idea what the hell you are on about.


Man, PSfan did catch you on the wrong foot with his question, so why not acknowledge he's point instead of attacking him? :rolleyes:
Being a bad loser makes you a McLaren (RD) fanatic! :p :

[Flat.tyres]

Man, PSfan did catch you on the wrong foot with his question, so why not acknowledge he's point instead of attacking him? :rolleyes:
Being a bad loser makes you a McLaren (RD) fanatic! :p :

what r you on about????

a racing weekend starts at first practice. during that period, you have to obey all directives. just because a race is started by a light going off, or a light going on, or a flag being dropped is neither here nor there.

fail to stop at a red light and get chopped. no problem.

no point argueing with me about it mate. argue with the fia and every motor sport professional that understands this. Montoya knows it, Massa knows it, Ferrari knows it. the only people that think its a bit unfair are the people that havent a clue why you stop at a red. its to save lives and it works bloody well. muddy the waters and drivers will take the piss. always have, always will. thats why theres no arguement.

[ioan]

what r you on about????

a racing weekend starts at first practice. during that period, you have to obey all directives. just because a race is started by a light going off, or a light going on, or a flag being dropped is neither here nor there.

fail to stop at a red light and get chopped. no problem.

no point argueing with me about it mate. argue with the fia and every motor sport professional that understands this. Montoya knows it, Massa knows it, Ferrari knows it. the only people that think its a bit unfair are the people that havent a clue why you stop at a red. its to save lives and it works bloody well. muddy the waters and drivers will take the piss. always have, always will. thats why theres no arguement.

Than why do you continue arguing???? :p :

[Flat.tyres]

Than why do you continue arguing???? :p :

not an arguement my friend but just pointing out the obvious. if you wish to argue about it then fine but theres no point in me writing any more if you havent got the point by now.

perhaps i should bother with these sort of arguements as it seems people just like digging into the smallest molehill to make a mountain. lets just say that you and your friends are right and the rest of us are wrong.

[Racehound]

Why was Massa and Fisichella black flagged and Alonso not?
because alonso and hk pitted immedieiately the sc was deployed, had their stops and exited the pit lane before the red light was illuminated at the end of pit road............massa and fisi drove out ignoring the red light as by the time they came round again the red light was already on and pitroad was under sc conditions........

[Racehound]

because alonso and hk pitted immedieiately the sc was deployed, had their stops and exited the pit lane before the red light was illuminated at the end of pit road............massa and fisi drove out ignoring the red light as by the time they came round again the red light was already on and pitroad was under sc conditions........ sorry.....not hk.....i meant nr who entered pitlane with fa!!!!!

[Racehound]

Precisely. When Giancarlo exited I didn't see a train of cars. He gained nothing by it.

Even so, IMO the only reason to be excluded from a GP during the race is if:

1) you have a car that is deemed dangerous to drive, dangerous for either the driver, others drivers, or spectators.

2) failure to heed a black flag for a driving infraction

Fans of international driving series often deride the North American series--NASCAR, CCWS, and the IRL--for "bogus" yellows that adversly affect the "sporting" nature of the event. It seems as if the governing body hasn't sufficiently thought the SC scenarios through, because excluding these two drivers seems a draconian interpretation of the rules.
hmmm....reason 1 there looks like an exact interpretation of wurzs jalopy running most of the race with a badly damaged rear wing!!!!!......how come he wasnt dq`d under the "flexible aerodynamic device" coz theres no doubt that wing wasnt stable after it was damaged!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jens]

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070615093413.shtml

Coulthard explained: "I think we should introduce a fixed speed limit on the track when the SC comes out."

Interesting idea - what do you think? :p : :)

[aryan]

Well DC probably knows more about this than me, but I thought the idea of a SC was to allow the cars to run a bit faster on unaffected sections of the track, and dramatically slow down on the scene of the incident. The idea of a fixed speed limit would probably go against that.

[ShiftingGears]

I've always thought the safety car is mostly an excuse to bunch the cars up to try and improve the show. I think waved double yellows would be enough for the drivers to avoid a wreck. If they ignore it then they cop a disqualification. This can easily be enforced with the lights on the steering wheel indicating when flags are out.

[jens]

I've always thought the safety car is mostly an excuse to bunch the cars up to try and improve the show.

:up:

That's my favourite era, when there were no safety cars and just pure racing. :)

North American series are a good example of "creating a show" - they call a SC for every little thing.

[Garry Walker]

the current SC rule is a joke and disgrace to F1. How can I mail Mosley and tell him what I think of him and his rules?

[Garry Walker]

North American series are a good example of "creating a show" - they call a SC for every little thing.
Yeah, thats sickening. I cant watch Nascar because they put the SC out for everything. Someone farts - SC for 20 laps, mechanic throws a boogie from the nose onto the racetrack - SC for 25 laps.