Mousse system

[White Sauron]

So... We all saw what happened with some drivers in Greece, even though they had a tyre mousse system. Actually, the tyre factor became decisive. I don't think that's good, especially for next year, when this system is going to be banned. This could meen a danger of not having a rally winner who won by his driving. Rather a winner who paced himself slowely in order to avoid all the problems at all. This style reminds me me Markko Martin of the beginning of 2005. Don't think anyone likes it. But Ok... I remember some monthes ago even Sebastien Loeb was talking about stupid banning of mousse, in Greece again he and Gronholm hinted at this problem. Actually I just don't understand why the FIA wants to apply this rule, if ALL drivers and teams don't mind it and they'd rather use this system then saving costs on it...

Well... What do you think? Should this system stay? Maybe we should write a pettition to the FIA?)

[Glee]

Does anybody know the cost of the mousse system?

When a control tyre is applied, maybe all drivers will be forced to drive on more durable tires. Today all drivers’ drive with a tire that is as soft as possible, but if the softest (and least durable) tires are not an option, then punctures will be less common.

[koko0703]

I would assume the tyres will be built harder and tougher when the mousse system is banned. Then the possibility of the punctures can be lowered but harder tyre means less grip, which lead to reduced speed....

More than the ban on mousse system, I don't like the rule that the car has to have 4 wheels and 4 tyres to drive on the public road to service. I thought driving on 3 wheels are also part of the show, and I enjoyed it quite honestly.

[Brother John]

I would assume the tyres will be built harder and tougher when the mousse system is banned. Then the possibility of the punctures can be lowered but harder tyre means less grip, which lead to reduced speed.... . :up: :up: :up: :up:

Reduced speed is good and harder tyre is saving cost!
DRIVERS HAVE TO SHOW THAT THEY CAN STAY ON THE ROAD.
I want to see who is the best driver and not which car is the bests! :p

[White Sauron]

:up: :up: :up: :up:

Reduced speed is good and harder tyre is saving cost!
DRIVERS HAVE TO SHOW THAT THEY CAN STAY ON THE ROAD.
I want to see who is the best driver and not which car is the bests! :p

Óìóò with the hard compound drivers will have to take care of tyres... And much will still depend on luck. Do you think that in these conditions you can see who is the fastest? Doubt so...

[kleisj]

Yes saving costs. This is what FIA has tried to achieve the past 4-5 years in order to increase the rounds of WRC. We have all seen the result of that!!!!!
Less manufacturers, less cars, less drivers, less interest.
And as I have understood noone takes into account drivers opinions. They know something more...

[Donney]

I don't mind seing the mousse banned. Less corner cutting and less rally sprint feeling.

I don't really see a problem with that, besides it will show who is fastest in new conditions.

[Carlo]

I would assume the tyres will be built harder and tougher when the mousse system is banned. Then the possibility of the punctures can be lowered but harder tyre means less grip, which lead to reduced speed....

.

And driving of the style of Bjoin, Hannau, Walter, Ari, Timo, Markku, Stig, Juha and Pennti etc who if I remember correctly were not that slow around the place.

[Donney]

And punctures have always been a factor in rallying.

[DonJippo]

And punctures have always been a factor in rallying.

And even with mousse as we saw last weekend in Greece.

[Daniel]

And punctures have always been a factor in rallying.
Not for people with the memory of a goldfish :)

[shurik]

I wonder how exactly this mousse system works.. Tubeless tyres with inner tube inside covered in mousse? What about the risk of nipple being cut off because of tube movement?

[DonJippo]

I wonder how exactly this mousse system works..

Here you go... http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/01062007/29/decades-run-flat-mousse.html

[jonkka]

And punctures have always been a factor in rallying.

So have wars been part of human history, but is that a reason to continue with the tradition?

With such a thin entry lists we currently have, a couple of punctures easily rob the rally all the excitement it might have left and all we have is procession from day one. I do hope that - with control tyre - we might have more durable tyres as pure performance can be sacrificed. If that is so, and punctures remain a scarcity they are now, then I have nothing against mousse ban. One have to bear in mind that Safari tyres never had mousse due to speed and temperature and Burns won 2000 Safari without a single puncture!

[shurik]

Here you go... http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/01062007/29/decades-run-flat-mousse.html
Thanks, DonJippo :)

[Donney]

So have wars been part of human history, but is that a reason to continue with the tradition?

With such a thin entry lists we currently have, a couple of punctures easily rob the rally all the excitement it might have left and all we have is procession from day one. I do hope that - with control tyre - we might have more durable tyres as pure performance can be sacrificed. If that is so, and punctures remain a scarcity they are now, then I have nothing against mousse ban. One have to bear in mind that Safari tyres never had mousse due to speed and temperature and Burns won 2000 Safari without a single puncture!

:rolleyes:


That if you consider punctures as important as wars and if you consider rallying boring and processional in the many years previous to the introduction of the mousse system.

But each one to his ideas..... :dozey:

[janneppi]

I think what jonkka meant was that just because something was common in history, it shouldn't necessary be continue to be the same. And that couple of punctures may leave us with too big differences between drivers to give them reason to drive 100%

[cosmicpanda]

DRIVERS HAVE TO SHOW THAT THEY CAN STAY ON THE ROAD.

I rather think that they already do that.


I want to see who is the best driver and not which car is the bests! :p

Put them all in identical spec cars then, like A1GP.

[Daniel]

I think what jonkka meant was that just because something was common in history, it shouldn't necessary be continue to be the same. And that couple of punctures may leave us with too big differences between drivers to give them reason to drive 100%
Yes but people complain that the drivers are able to drive at 100% in the sprint format. People need to decide what they actually want from the WRC.

[jonkka]

People need to decide what they actually want from the WRC.

Contradiction of terms. People cannot have a single stated goal, by definition. One person can but since next person differs, people will always want different things.

Some want longer rallies and return of the endurance element, some want tighter competition. Some want more rallies in a season, some want less. Manufacturers want wins and fame, fans want more different winners. Mutually exclusive goals just to name few.

[jonkka]

if you consider rallying boring and processional in the many years previous to the introduction of the mousse system.

Have you had a look at average winning margins of the past? Trend and it's implications are quite obvious.

[L5->R5/CR]

...This could meen a danger of not having a rally winner who won by his driving. Rather a winner who paced himself slowely in order to avoid all the problems at all.

How is that not a driver winning by his driving. Sometimes the key to winning is making sure you finish...

[Daniel]

How is that not a driver winning by his driving. Sometimes the key to winning is making sure you finish...
I agree. I don't particularly like the fact that the cars have 95% reliability and punctures are all too rare. Punctures ARE a part of rallying!

[Donney]

Have you had a look at average winning margins of the past? Trend and it's implications are quite obvious.

Right, but in the past there were five days rallyes so it was possible to have a puncture, loose three min and win a rally.

[Daniel]

It was also the case that the good drivers had less punctures because they were generally better at avoiding rocks and took it a bit easier :)

[BDunnell]

I agree. I don't particularly like the fact that the cars have 95% reliability and punctures are all too rare. Punctures ARE a part of rallying!

Exactly. :up: So too are the rough roads that cause them; as are (were?) the demanding rallies that cause lots of retirements.

[jparker]

Hmm, I didn't know there are people that enjoy the lack of cars on the road.

[Daniel]

Retirements are a fact of rallying. Why do people complain about stupidrally when it gives you more cars and complain about cars getting punctures?

[xavier]

I think removing the mouse system is not a good thing:

- It will force drivers to take less risk, because a puncture means that you lost the rally. So WRC will be less spectacular and we wil have accountant races: if you are 20 seconds behind, taking risk will be out of question because a puncture will make you lose all the 2nd place point.

- Even though some Drivers are better at avoiding rocks, there are some that are unavoidable. Winning a rally will rely more on luck than skills.

- More retirements: it means less cars on the road and a less competitive field in day 2 and 3.

- Security is always an issue. The mousse make the car safer.

I think if you ask the current WRC drivers their opinion about using the mousse next year, most of them think it's a very bad idea.

[ZequeArgentina]

It is easy, look at PWRC or JWRC were mousse in not allowed, that but with WRC cars is what al the tyre thin is going to be about. Carrying 2 spares would be wise, and could even become mandatory (so no one retires arally just because got two punctures between service areas).

[BDunnell]

Hmm, I didn't know there are people that enjoy the lack of cars on the road.

I agree absolutely with Daniel. It's a part of rallying, or at least was.

[jparker]

I agree absolutely with Daniel. It's a part of rallying, or at least was.
Who said that, and what exactly is part of rallying? Driving as fast as you can, or quickly changing wheels? Or perhaps praying for good own luck and bad lack for the others? Working like a madman to be on the top, and then see all that ruined in few seconds? Or maybe rallying is quick wheel change contest, that's entertaining, but it sounds like a rat race to me.
The gap between top drivers in rallying is measured in seconds, there is no room for road adventures, just one puncture and the driver is immediately out of the game. That's not my kind of rallying, that's for sure. If one likes racing adventures, the African desert is wide open.

[ZequeArgentina]

Who said that, and what exactly is part of rallying? Driving as fast as you can, or quickly changing wheels? Or perhaps praying for good own luck and bad lack for the others? Working like a madman to be on the top, and then see all that ruined in few seconds? Or maybe rallying is quick wheel change contest, that's entertaining, but it sounds like a rat race to me.
The gap between top drivers in rallying is measured in seconds, there is no room for road adventures, just one puncture and the driver is immediately out of the game. That's not my kind of rallying, that's for sure. If one likes racing adventures, the African desert is wide open.


Rallying is not only driving fast, it is also driving with your head, not overdriving were conditions are not good, knowing when and were to risk everything and when not.


What I do agree is with the lenght of the rallies, with shorter rallies, a puncture may mean bye bye.

[bowler]

Who said that, and what exactly is part of rallying? Driving as fast as you can, or quickly changing wheels? Or perhaps praying for good own luck and bad lack for the others? Working like a madman to be on the top, and then see all that ruined in few seconds? Or maybe rallying is quick wheel change contest, that's entertaining, but it sounds like a rat race to me.
The gap between top drivers in rallying is measured in seconds, there is no room for road adventures, just one puncture and the driver is immediately out of the game. That's not my kind of rallying, that's for sure. If one likes racing adventures, the African desert is wide open.

The PWRC and the Junior competitirs manage to compete in WRC events without mousse. Mousse only exists in the WRC at the very top level. Are the WRC drivers not as good as the PWRC/Junior. Obviously that is not the case.

15% of the field has a technical gain that 85% do not have. The teams are always trying to reduce their costs, and left to themselves they will never yield any competitive advantage, nor will drivers.

The drivers don't like it, but they will adapt. The removal of mousse is a cost reduction (not a skill reduction)

If a driver is so stupid as to not adapt, then he will learn quickly.

I rate the drivers better than that. They will adapt, and will be better drivers for it.

If they get punctures, they will have to change them, like everyone else in the rally.

[White Sauron]

I highly doubt that removing mousse system is such a significant cost-reducing measure.

[jparker]

The PWRC and the Junior competitirs manage to compete in WRC events without mousse. Mousse only exists in the WRC at the very top level. Are the WRC drivers not as good as the PWRC/Junior. Obviously that is not the case.

Well, they don't have much choice, do they? But are PWRC drivers happy about it?
Kristian Sohlberg:
"Together with my team I made a decision to retire the rally due safety reasons. We had constant problems with our tyres as the surface of the tyres kept loosing up. As we rally with these high speeds there aren't no reasons to take unnecessary risks, told Sohlberg. "

[bowler]

I highly doubt that removing mousse system is such a significant cost-reducing measure.

I don't know the costs, but they are significant.

There are 16 events x 12 cars = 192+ sets of mousse only in captivity in the world per year.

Mouse requires extra fitting machines,extra manufacturing machines, refrigerated transport, extra people to install, extra research and development, special tyres,

The costs have to be big.

[jparker]

I don't know the costs, but they are significant.

There are 16 events x 12 cars = 192+ sets of mousse only in captivity in the world per year.

Mouse requires extra fitting machines,extra manufacturing machines, refrigerated transport, extra people to install, extra research and development, special tyres,

The costs have to be big.

I don't know the cost for mousse either but even so, the cost is well justified. How about the cost of retiring? All team's hard work ruined just because of bad luck with tyres.

[koko0703]

As I posted before, mousse or no mousse, I don't think the change will increase the number of punctures because Pirelli or other tire manufacutrers will not just take out of mousse from current tires. They will develop harder tougher compound, which will probably have as much puncture as tire with mousse. Remember you can still have punctures and retire even with mousse, and mousse doesn't necessarily work all the time. Of course, there is a downside to this change: harder compounds means reduced grip and probably leads to more conservative driving. But I think rallying should be the test of both speed and endurance, and it doesn't have to be a sprint all the time.

[DonJippo]

As I posted before, mousse or no mousse, I don't think the change will increase the number of punctures because Pirelli or other tire manufacutrers will not just take out of mousse from current tires. They will develop harder tougher compound, which will probably have as much puncture as tire with mousse. Remember you can still have punctures and retire even with mousse, and mousse doesn't necessarily work all the time.

:up: spot on.

[BDunnell]

Who said that, and what exactly is part of rallying? Driving as fast as you can, or quickly changing wheels? Or perhaps praying for good own luck and bad lack for the others? Working like a madman to be on the top, and then see all that ruined in few seconds? Or maybe rallying is quick wheel change contest, that's entertaining, but it sounds like a rat race to me.
The gap between top drivers in rallying is measured in seconds, there is no room for road adventures, just one puncture and the driver is immediately out of the game. That's not my kind of rallying, that's for sure. If one likes racing adventures, the African desert is wide open.

Cars retire. Cars have problems. This is part of rallying, like it or not. Trying to avoid causing problems like punctures, suspension damage is part of being a good driver. So too is fighting back after them, or, on occasions, having to fix them yourself. I don't see what is controversial about thinking this.

[A.F.F.]

Getting rid of the mousse is getting rid of cutting the corners too much. Those who have the patience to do so, it may pay off the in the finish line.

[Daniel]

Cars retire. Cars have problems. This is part of rallying, like it or not. Trying to avoid causing problems like punctures, suspension damage is part of being a good driver. So too is fighting back after them, or, on occasions, having to fix them yourself. I don't see what is controversial about thinking this.
Couldn't agree more. It will get away from the sprint aspect of rallying and reward good driving rather than just fast driving.

[jparker]

As I posted before, mousse or no mousse, I don't think the change will increase the number of punctures because Pirelli or other tire manufacutrers will not just take out of mousse from current tires. They will develop harder tougher compound, which will probably have as much puncture as tire with mousse. Remember you can still have punctures and retire even with mousse, and mousse doesn't necessarily work all the time.

I don't have stats on hand, but there are many examples (Loeb last weekend) where mousse has proven invaluable help. The fact that it doesn't always help, doesn't mean is not good to have.


Of course, there is a downside to this change: harder compounds means reduced grip and probably leads to more conservative driving. But I think rallying should be the test of both speed and endurance, and it doesn't have to be a sprint all the time.

How come sport measured in seconds difference has anything to do with endurance? Rally is all about speed. I don't get it. Actually I do, if one doesn't have the speed, the endurance is the only way to survive ;)

[bowler]

I don't have stats on hand, but there are many examples (Loeb last weekend) where mousse has proven invaluable help. The fact that it doesn't always help, doesn't mean is not good to have.



How come sport measured in seconds difference has anything to do with endurance? Rally is all about speed. I don't get it. Actually I do, if one doesn't have the speed, the endurance is the only way to survive ;)

No one is saying that mousse does not give any advantage; patently the opposite is true: mousse gives a significant advantage. That advantage will be taken away, and the few drivers who use mousse will now have to drive like all the rest who don't. This may make the rally about 5km longer, as the drivers won't be able to cut corners in the same manner. As it is today some are so far off the rally course that they could be penalised for leaving the rally route :-)

Rally is about speed and endurance. If you don't finish the speed is irrelevant. If you do finish you have to be faster than the next guy to win. These guys are competitive playing tiddly winks. Speed and endurance and driver skill will determine the winner, as normal.

[jparker]

No one is saying that mousse does not give any advantage; patently the opposite is true: mousse gives a significant advantage. That advantage will be taken away, and the few drivers who use mousse will now have to drive like all the rest who don't. This may make the rally about 5km longer, as the drivers won't be able to cut corners in the same manner. As it is today some are so far off the rally course that they could be penalised for leaving the rally route :-)

Rally is about speed and endurance. If you don't finish the speed is irrelevant. If you do finish you have to be faster than the next guy to win. These guys are competitive playing tiddly winks. Speed and endurance and driver skill will determine the winner, as normal.

OK, fine. Lets wait and see what happens next year.

[White Sauron]

Well, Loeb and Gronholm are against this rule of banning the mousse... So, doesn't it show anything, that two best drivers are worried with this?..

[Bjorn240]

I think getting rid of mousse is a good idea actually.

As it is, the WRC boys have mousse, and as a result make exceptionally large cuts. The PWRC/JWRC boys are then forced to take these same cuts/ruts to remain competitive, and the ruts are the largest cause of PWRC/JWRC punctures.

If you remove mousse from the WR cars, they will reluctantly take smaller cuts, and the number of punctures down the field will reduce accordingly.

As to jparker's comments regarding tire changes and repairs on stage and road sections - Yes, that's part of rallying. It's one of the things that separates rallying from (snooze) circuit racing.

- Christian

[Daniel]

Bah! What would someone with actual rally experience know about that sort of thing over the couch potato rally drivers here ;)

[jparker]

Bah! What would someone with actual rally experience know about that sort of thing over the couch potato rally drivers here ;)
You call Loeb and Gronholm potato rally drivers? Because they don't like the idea as already noted?

I guess the only people that like this idea, are the ones that are not competitive.

[Daniel]

You call Loeb and Gronholm potato rally drivers? Because they don't like the idea as already noted?

I guess the only people that like this idea, are the ones that are not competitive.
When I said couch potato rally drivers I was talking about people who watch the WRC on their TV and think they know something about the WRC.

You fail to understand the wider implications so I really can't be bothered continuing this conversation with you.....

[jparker]

When I said couch potato rally drivers I was talking about people who watch the WRC on their TV and think they know something about the WRC.

You fail to understand the wider implications so I really can't be bothered continuing this conversation with you.....

Unfortunately you don't make conversation, that's your problem.

[Daniel]

Unfortunately you don't make conversation, that's your problem.
For petes sake. DO I HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU?

At the moment only Loeb and Gronholm are winning rallies. If they get a puncture they might not win. So they stand to lose the most from this rule change in that they won't win all of the rallies between them.

[Tomi]

I dont think much will change, it will take some time to adapt to the new tyre, and and maybe a little less cut notes, those who are fast now will be fast with the new tyre also.

[Daniel]

I dont think much will change, it will take some time to adapt to the new tyre, and and maybe a little less cut notes, those who are fast now will be fast with the new tyre also.
I don't think much will change in regards to who is fastest but the change will hopefully reward those who are careful drivers. Plus you will have events where both Marcus and Seb have punctures and if there are drivers out there who are fast enough and careful enough they will score wins just like in the old days :)

[Tomi]

I don't think much will change in regards to who is fastest but the change will hopefully reward those who are careful drivers. Plus you will have events where both Marcus and Seb have punctures and if there are drivers out there who are fast enough and careful enough they will score wins just like in the old days :)

yes maybe, but that can happen now too that both get problems.
If drivers start to drive carefully it normally means to drive slower to spot the stones in time, guys who do that maybe sometimes come close to podium but will never win anything, to win drivers have to take risks no matter what tyres they are using, also the new tyre will be much stronger than current no mousse tyre, so the lines will not be that much different they use now.

[DonJippo]

the new tyre will be much stronger than current no mousse tyre, so the lines will not be that much different they use now.

I agree, in a year or two development takes care that non-mousse tyres can take the same beating as mousse tyres today. I just hope the harder structure and compound will result atleast a little bit more sideways driving compared to what we see today but I have doubts about that.

[Bjorn240]

Nevertheless, if non-mousse tires (tyres, if you prefer) are made stronger, this will benefit all runners, not just WRC. A big part of why PWRC and especially JWRC are "puncture" championships now, is that the WRC cars have mouse and the P/J cars don't. The same rule across the categories would be good. The elimination of mousse will also marginally reduce the wear on the edges of the roads, which will decrease road grading costs for organizers post-event.

[Tomi]

Nevertheless, if non-mousse tires (tyres, if you prefer) are made stronger, this will benefit all runners, not just WRC. A big part of why PWRC and especially JWRC are "puncture" championships now, is that the WRC cars have mouse and the P/J cars don't. The same rule across the categories would be good. The elimination of mousse will also marginally reduce the wear on the edges of the roads, which will decrease road grading costs for organizers post-event.

Thats true, better would be if they would let the PWRC first on the road now, and the same tyrerule for everyone when it comes next year.
Also there is many things that could be changed without mayor costs, like for instance 1 extra day recce for 1st time drivers.
Has anyone of the finnish guy's read Jouhkis column in the new VM, quite good i would say.

[White Sauron]

Has anyone of the finnish guy's read Jouhkis column in the new VM, quite good i would say.


What column? How is it called? Just got this edition by mail...

[Tomi]

What column? How is it called? Just got this edition by mail...

page 42, FIA ei vieläkään kuuntele asiantuntijoita.

[bowler]

Thats true, better would be if they would let the PWRC first on the road now, and the same tyrerule for everyone when it comes next year.
Also there is many things that could be changed without mayor costs, like for instance 1 extra day recce for 1st time drivers.
Has anyone of the finnish guy's read Jouhkis column in the new VM, quite good i would say.

can you translate his column and post?

[jonkka]

also the new tyre will be much stronger than current no mousse tyre, so the lines will not be that much different they use now.

Control tyre can and may be stronger but will it be that is an entirely different question. Just as JWRC control tyre could be practically undestructible but clearly it is not, who says what quality the WRC control tyre will be. I fear that Pirelli will work from current tyres instead of developing something entirely new for next year.

Lack of mousse might force top drivers to take a bit cleaner line but 4WD cars will still make mighty ruts and pull out rocks, so mousse ban won't help backrunners that much.

[White Sauron]

page 42, FIA ei vieläkään kuuntele asiantuntijoita.

löysin sen. kiitos.

[White Sauron]

news from the Donegal rally:

Loeb is second and complaining on bumps.

another interesting note is that there he's also trying tyres without mousse to understand what drivers will have to face the next year...