Webber & Red Bull

[truefan72]

Well this seems to be turning into the partnership from hell. For Both sides.
Webber seems to carry a black cloud around wherever he goes. Williams is much more competitive this year and he leaves,

Anyway, I can't imagine this being much fun for him.

From RBR side, ... What the hell! you replace a young talented driver like Klien with a "supposed" seasoned vet, and he does much worse than Klien ever did.

Hopefully Klien will get to race again with Honda/Toyota or somewhere half decent. RBR and Torro Rossi are showing some naiveté with their management decisions.

1. They should have kept Klien
2. They should stop messing with Scott Speed, who shows more promise than Liuzzi
3. They need to start fixing, what amounts to. unforgivable mechanical problems, like the brake pedal sticking and the "hydraulics" issue.
4. They need to hire a race engineer to go along with Aero specialist Newey.
One needs some balance with respect to the car's development.
...I could think of much more, but I'm pretty tired now.

Just wanted to vent my frustration on how two years ago, everybody's favorite team, has now become a slight mockery.

[ShiftingGears]

Well this seems to be turning into the partnership from hell. For Both sides.
Webber seems to carry a black cloud around wherever he goes. Williams is much more competitive this year and he leaves,

Anyway, I can't imagine this being much fun for him.

From RBR side, ... What the hell! you replace a young talented driver like Klien with a "supposed" seasoned vet, and he does much worse than Klien ever did.

Hopefully Klien will get to race again with Honda/Toyota or somewhere half decent. RBR and Torro Rossi are showing some naiveté with their management decisions.

1. They should have kept Klien
2. They should stop messing with Scott Speed, who shows more promise than Liuzzi
3. They need to start fixing, what amounts to. unforgivable mechanical problems, like the brake pedal sticking and the "hydraulics" issue.
4. They need to hire a race engineer to go along with Aero specialist Newey.
One needs some balance with respect to the car's development.
...I could think of much more, but I'm pretty tired now.

Just wanted to vent my frustration on how two years ago, everybody's favorite team, has now become a slight mockery.

Everybodys favourite team? Who are you referring to?

I think Webber is a very unfortunate driver. Hopefully the car keeps improving throughout the season so that Webber and Coulthard can get solid results. I was expecting Webber to thump Coulthard, but since he hasn't, he's missed the boat on being World Champ. Unless Red Bull become the best car.

He had a sticking throttle in Australia, transmission issues in Monaco, open fuel flap and then gearbox seizure in Bahrain. Basically he's had unreliable cars. Sure, Klien is young, but I can't remember Klien ever doing anything spectacular like placing cars so high up the grid for races. Or anything spectacular like Webber at Imola last year. So how do you justify Klien being better?

[jens]

To be honest, I'm really starting to believe in the good prospects of Red Bull. I was pretty sceptical about them during winter, but it seems like they are gradually getting over their woes with newly-bought Renault engines and in spite of fears inside the team that Newey might still not be fully integrated, the speed has been promising. Fourth fastest car at Barcelona was like a revelation what might be expected from the future.

I still highly doubt RB will become a championship title contender in the future, but a podium finisher and 3rd/4th in the WCC - why not?

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe, with some luck, he'll get to replace the hapless Heiki.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Webber has been very unlucky with hydraulic problems and silly things like fuel-filler caps being left open. He's still a strong driver and an excellent qualifier.

[leopard]

Webber career was deteriorated from conflicting williams and BMW, perhaps it was about how close relationship between him to williams and BMW that have made him stick with williams.
I wanted to say what if he was offered to drive BMW at that time and not williams.

[ShiftingGears]

Or what if he went to Renault instead of Williams at the end of 2004. You could say "what if?" about many drivers and circumstances in F1. But if is F1 spelt backwards. And unfortunately Webber made a poor career choice in moving to Williams, as it somewhat damaged his reputation as being one of the best, and only brought him one podium in a team that won a race the year before. Before he was tauted as being "Williams Next World Champion" but it wasn't to be.

[Racehound]

Webber career was deteriorated from conflicting williams and BMW, perhaps it was about how close relationship between him to williams and BMW that have made him stick with williams.
I wanted to say what if he was offered to drive BMW at that time and not williams.
for the 05 season he had the chance to go to Renault!!!!....and turned it down to stay at wi**^"ms.........oh well.....hindsight is a big stick to bash yourself up with afterwards!!!!!!!!

[Schultz]

Mario Theissen also invited him to come to BMW. An offer that was also rejected. At least the fact he has been asked and is still wanted, shows that the people who matter still have confidence in him.

[Roamy]

It appears to me that Webber cannot drive fast for 1 and a half hours. I assume he will lose his seat at red bull and perhaps leave F1 or end up at spyker. or prodrive

[Dazz9908]

Well this seems to be turning into the partnership from hell. For Both sides.
Webber seems to carry a black cloud around wherever he goes. Williams is much more competitive this year and he leaves,

Anyway, I can't imagine this being much fun for him.

From RBR side, ... What the hell! you replace a young talented driver like Klien with a "supposed" seasoned vet, and he does much worse than Klien ever did.

Hopefully Klien will get to race again with Honda/Toyota or somewhere half decent. RBR and Torro Rossi are showing some naiveté with their management decisions.

1. They should have kept Klien
2. They should stop messing with Scott Speed, who shows more promise than Liuzzi
3. They need to start fixing, what amounts to. unforgivable mechanical problems, like the brake pedal sticking and the "hydraulics" issue.
4. They need to hire a race engineer to go along with Aero specialist Newey.
One needs some balance with respect to the car's development.
...I could think of much more, but I'm pretty tired now.

Just wanted to vent my frustration on how two years ago, everybody's favorite team, has now become a slight mockery.
:rolleyes:
Webber goes to teams either new teams with medium budgets(Jag) or rebuilding (Williams & RBR), He left Williams for a bit more money, he new the car was going to be better this year, But Frank couldn't afford him any more, imagine how fast Williams would be if Webber was still driving for them, scoring points and challenging the Renaults and BMW's I say.The black cloud seems more on HK at renault and Kubica at BMW and your man Speed who has done nothing worth noting this year, Lat year yes he was great, this year nothing worth mentioning.

1.Webber blew Klien away, and he's out qualified DC in Most races this year, Klien didn't.
2.Speed by name not by nature. Luzzi has out qualified Speed and Speed is more of road block, last year he was way better!!!.
3. You slam Webber about replacing Klien, then blame the mechanical issues, which has been Webbers problem all along this year.
4. This is a way new car this and very very different from last years car, the team is trying hard to get their head around it they slowly catching on, if so easy we all be doing it.

[Dazz9908]

It appears to me that Webber cannot drive fast for 1 and a half hours. I assume he will lose his seat at red bull and perhaps leave F1 or end up at spyker. or prodrive
More appears more like he'll move to Renault or Toyota and Speed will be champ car next year.

Webber has had much of chance to prove what he can do over the full distance as the car quites before he does! :D

[jens]

Webber's unluck reminds me a lot of Trulli's unluck during 2001-2002 (and to lesser extent also 2000 and 2003 can be included), when he almost endlessly retired and now Webber is having the same torture for second season in a row.

I remember the pain watching every race and knowing Jarno's car would blow up 5 laps before the finish from points position - and it did again and again! So I understand, how Webber fans are feeling. But at least there is some hope for the future (which sadly can't be said about Trulli...).

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Webber seems to have a plague of bad luck... thats followed him from team to team. He showed great promise when he arrived in F-1... but results have been lacking. Webber's rapidly reaching the point in his career where his best days may be behind him. I give him another year or two... but I expect that he will be out of F-1 before the end of this decade.

[Mickey T]

It appears to me that Webber cannot drive fast for 1 and a half hours. I assume he will lose his seat at red bull and perhaps leave F1 or end up at spyker. or prodrive

Given that i can't remember the last time a car lasted one and a half hours for him without something breaking, i don't know how you can make such a statement...

[jens]

Given that i can't remember the last time a car lasted one and a half hours for him without something breaking...

Malaysia 2007?

[Mickey T]

Malaysia 2007?

...and running ahead of DC when the Scot retired

[truefan72]

I am laying equal blame on Webber and RBR. Webber for steadily becoming a journeyman and not making the right career choices for himself, RBR for all the reasons named above.

Another thing. Scott Speed isn't my man, As I have mentioned a million times, living in a country plays no part in nationalistic sentiments. I've lived all over the world and now reside in NYC.

That being said,
In the 2 races that Speed has finished , he placed higher than his teammate.
In the other 3 races, he retired before the 10th lap. I don't put much stock in their quali results. In every race, Speed Qualided 19th, and Liuzzi 18th, so nothing there. If you watch them during the race, it is clear that Speed is the faster driver.

As for klien.

Last year, he finished 8th in Bharein, then retired in the next 4 races, finished ahead of DC in Spain, Retired in 4th postion (ahead of DC) in Monaco and was in postion to score their first podium. ( the opportunistic DC who benefited from his teamates misfortune), finished 2 places behind DC in GB, France, CAN, retired in the huge first lap incident in the USA, finished 8th in Germany, retired in Hungary, finished 11th in Turkey with DC 3laps behind, Finished 11th in Italy 1 spot ahead of DC, and then was replaced,

If you look at 2005, he had an even better start to the year before being replaced after 3 races.

I say, that Klien more than merited his seat, even above DC and certainly liuzzi. He was treated unfairly by the team and his day will come. Webber is yet to score a single point with the team and DC is basically drving with one foot in retirement.

What RBR needed was young aggressive and talented drivers readiy to build around for years to come.

[leopard]

for the 05 season he had the chance to go to Renault!!!!....and turned it down to stay at wi**^"ms.........oh well.....hindsight is a big stick to bash yourself up with afterwards!!!!!!!!
yess!!!!!!

[leopard]

Or what if he went to Renault instead of Williams at the end of 2004. You could say "what if?" about many drivers and circumstances in F1. But if is F1 spelt backwards. And unfortunately Webber made a poor career choice in moving to Williams, as it somewhat damaged his reputation as being one of the best, and only brought him one podium in a team that won a race the year before. Before he was tauted as being "Williams Next World Champion" but it wasn't to be.
I've heard 1F before, but I was forgetting it at all, thanks.

He might be wrong to be at williams, but turning Renault's offer down for 2005 season wasn't totally wrong to be the second man to Alonso. Renault would be focusing more on Alonso than anybody at the team after his climbing curve during 2004.

[millencolin]

for the 05 season he had the chance to go to Renault!!!!....and turned it down to stay at wi**^"ms.........oh well.....hindsight is a big stick to bash yourself up with afterwards!!!!!!!!

how can he 'stay' at williams (or as you spelt it, wi**^'ms) when he was offered the Renault drive when he was at Jaguar...

As for Klien... come on... seriously? The same Klien that Webber belted at Jaguar? If he was this so called great driver you made him out to be, then he would have a race seat. Fact of the matter was that he was a red bull pay driver and then once Red Bull first offered him drives in other series (DTM and ChampCar) that he rejected, Red Bull rejected him and all he could get was a test drive with honda.

[Dazz9908]

how can he 'stay' at williams (or as you spelt it, wi**^'ms) when he was offered the Renault drive when he was at Jaguar...

As for Klien... come on... seriously? The same Klien that Webber belted at Jaguar? If he was this so called great driver you made him out to be, then he would have a race seat. Fact of the matter was that he was a red bull pay driver and then once Red Bull first offered him drives in other series (DTM and ChampCar) that he rejected, Red Bull rejected him and all he could get was a test drive with honda.
:up: YEs Totally Agree with this!

[Schultz]

I am laying equal blame on Webber and RBR. Webber for steadily becoming a journeyman and not making the right career choices for himself.

This is one thing i'm sure every person on the F1 forum can agree with. He joined Williams on that teams reputation alone, and he did so against the advice of his manager Flavio. But you can't blame him. I wouldn't trust anyone who wears those skimpy speedo's in public. But seriously, it was his mistake. It was an error of judgement that ultimately will probably mean he won't be as successful an F1 driver as his skills would owe to him. That's a shame, but it's a reality now I think. He could have gone to Renault, he could have gone to BMW, but he went with Williams and Red Bull. Each team has failed him so far.

[aryan]

As for Klien... come on... seriously? The same Klien that Webber belted at Jaguar?

And by DC in RBR.

Come on, Klien stayed 3 years in F1 and achieved NOTHING. How much slack are you going to cut a pilot?

[Garry Walker]

you replace a young talented driver like Klien with a "supposed" seasoned vet, and he does much worse than Klien ever did.

How much beer have you consumed in the last 5 hours?

Klien was destroyed by Webbo in equal cars and did far worse than MW. They arent even comparable.
Webbo is 100 times the driver klien is.



I say, that Klien more than merited his seat, even above DC and certainly liuzzi. He was treated unfairly by the team and his day will come. Webber is yet to score a single point with the team and DC is basically drving with one foot in retirement.

What RBR needed was young aggressive and talented drivers readiy to build around for years to come.

What about the time when Webbo and Klien teamed up? Where was your hero Klien then? Getting humiliated by Webbo, thats where he was.

RBR might need a young driver to build around, but Liuzzi, Klien and Speed are all failures and building around them would equal to building your house with faeces as the foundation for it.

[jens]

To be fair with Klien - it was his debut season, when he drove against Webber. Rosberg also got beaten by Webber last year, but he has certainly improved since then and I guess that now he is already about Mark's level.

But Klien didn't impress me at Red Bull either. His 2005 campaign was promising, but he didn't continue that progress 2006 and didn't start matching DC. So he should have done more to prove himself. By no means he was/is a poor driver, but also doesn't pretend to be a 'great' one. IMO Speed and Liuzzi are more talented than Klien.

[truefan72]

all fair points Jens,

but if you look at my post of his 20905 and 2006 campaign you will have to concede that his performance was strong enough to assure him a seat. This guy has been undermioned by his own team from day one. His actual perfromance far exceeds the rhetoric he receives from some forum memebers.

All I can do is hope for his day to come again and prove the naysayers wrong.

[Ranger]

Well regardless, Webber qualified 6th in Montreal. Fortunately that bloody fuel flap won't come open and hopefully that gearbox holds up.

[PSfan]

Yah, fortunately for him Team Torro wasn't gonna raise much of a stink over his brake check on Speed during friday practice, and only a reprimand came from the stewards investigation. And I understand that both RBR and Torro and not exactly thrilled at the manuever on account that neither teams have an abundance of spare parts. So a good qualifying effort might be one way of calming things down at Red Bull :p :

[Sauly]

You know what is awesome, he has just Qualified 6th for the Canadian GP! If only he were given a Mclaren for a race!

[Gibbsy]

Yah, fortunately for him Team Torro wasn't gonna raise much of a stink over his brake check on Speed during friday practice, and only a reprimand came from the stewards investigation. And I understand that both RBR and Torro and not exactly thrilled at the manuever on account that neither teams have an abundance of spare parts. So a good qualifying effort might be one way of calming things down at Red Bull :p :

Its hardly Marks fault that Speed didnt realise that Mark was going to return the favor of Speeds pervious brake test. Maybe he is just a little slow....

[aryan]

Maybe he is just a little slow....or a little North American if you like.


hmmm.... :dozey: .... now do we need to go ther? :rolleyes:

[jens]

The start of the race looked like typical "Webber race" - poor start and a spin dropped him nowhere. Then the safety cars somehow helped him into podium contention until Red Bull decided to use a "genius" strategy. That's incredible how consistently Webber's promising races end in disappointment...

[RaikkonenRules]

Everybodys favourite team? Who are you referring to?

I think Webber is a very unfortunate driver. Hopefully the car keeps improving throughout the season so that Webber and Coulthard can get solid results. I was expecting Webber to thump Coulthard, but since he hasn't, he's missed the boat on being World Champ. Unless Red Bull become the best car.

He had a sticking throttle in Australia, transmission issues in Monaco, open fuel flap and then gearbox seizure in Bahrain. Basically he's had unreliable cars. Sure, Klien is young, but I can't remember Klien ever doing anything spectacular like placing cars so high up the grid for races. Or anything spectacular like Webber at Imola last year. So how do you justify Klien being better?

Klien was running ahead of Coulthard at Monaco last year before the car failed so he almost got that podium.

[millencolin]

OH MY GOD


WEBBER FINISHED!!!!!! :p :


but he was the the only driver to be hasseling Hamilton off the restarts... watch the restart (the one where he peels off into pit lane, good call RBR... NOT!) he was right on his tail harrasing Lewis, Heidfeld never did that! Smart move by Webber, if only he didnt have to pit...

[ShiftingGears]

Who was the dumbarse that decided to send him into the pits just as the safety car pulled in? He could've got some good points there. Fools! Although Webbers start wasn't applaudable by any means either.

[aryan]

but he was the the only driver to be hasseling Hamilton off the restarts...


Because he had virtually no fuel at that point, and Hamilton was on the super soft?

Typical Webber race, nothing to remember for webber fans. He had a poor start, made a poor overtaking attempt which put him behing DC. He got lucky with the first SC which put him in points position, but the luck didn't last luck with the next SCs.

He would have finished outside points without SCs.

[wmcot]

Who was the dumbarse that decided to send him into the pits just as the safety car pulled in?

That was one more strange thing in a very strange race! I thought you would want to pit WHILE the safety car was on the track????

[dwboogityfan]

I thought Webber drove a great race after the early spin. Had Red Bull pitted under the safety car they would have been celebrating a podium finish.

[jens]

Red Bull has so much potential and it's a real shame that they waste it all the time. They have only 4 points, although by speed should be fighting with Renault in the WCC. Who in the team is responsible for strategical choices? Christian Horner? Well, the youth and inexperience in the team is still notable in some situations...