So how safe is Fisi's job now?

[keysersoze]

His team seems to rate him, and he's up 13-3 on his teammate. He's scored in all but one GP.

If he goes, who gets his seat? And, whoever it is, would he be an improvement?

[Valve Bounce]

Fisi has done better than I expected so far this year in the underperforming Renault.
I have come to realise that a winning team one year can become a nightmare the next, depending how hte new car behaves (Like the Honda). So we cannot blindly expect Renault to hold the same edvantage they had last year over both Ferrari and Mackalaren. In fact the Macs have suddenly become top of the list since improving their reliability; something many here said that Alonso going to Macs would ruin his chances this year.

[Hawkmoon]

I don't see a clear upgrade over Fisichella available for Renault. The Ferrari and McLaren drivers are going nowhere unless there is a major falling out between team and driver. Who's left?

Heidfeld might be available but I have my doubts that he's a definite upgrade. I can't see any other veteran who's off-contract that would be the upgrade that Renault would be after.

That only leaves rookies or youngsters. I don't think Renault would go with Kovalainen and Piquet unless they figure that titles in 2008 are out of their reach.

If Fisichella finishes the season with a clear margin over Kovalainen then I say Renault should maintain the status quo.

[pino]

The question should be, how safe is Kovalainen job...not Fisichella's :p :

[Valve Bounce]

The question should be, how safe is Kovalainen job...not Fisichella's :p :


Exactly!! I don't think Heiki has done anything so far to justify his ride in the Renault.

[V12]

I for one was greatly impressed by his drive to 4th in Monaco - which largely went unnoticed by many it has to be said. It reminded me of the Fisi of old, dragging less than competitive cars (Benetton, Jordan, Sauber) higher than they had a right to be. To date he's showed the way to all of his teammates bar Alonso, all of who except Lamy and Firman are still racing in F1 (Ralf, Wurz, Button, Sato, Massa).

Renault would be daft to get rid of him, unless as Hawkmoon says they have some grand 3 or 4 year plan built around Kovalainen and Piquet...

[Mickey T]

...or you guys could consider it another way.

Fisi's finishing positions this year are not, so far, dissimilar to his finishing positions from last year. fourth for him last year was a pretty good result.

yet, Alonso took the same car to a championship...

could it be that Fisi is still performing slightly below the car's potential, as he did last year, and that Heikki is seriously under performing and that, with an Alonso in it, it would still have championship potential?

[pino]

yet, Alonso took the same car to a championship...



The same car that was build expecially for Alonso ;)

[Valve Bounce]

...or you guys could consider it another way.

Fisi's finishing positions this year are not, so far, dissimilar to his finishing positions from last year. fourth for him last year was a pretty good result.

yet, Alonso took the same car to a championship...

could it be that Fisi is still performing slightly below the car's potential, as he did last year, and that Heikki is seriously under performing and that, with an Alonso in it, it would still have championship potential?

Mickey, I hope you are not suggesting that the car Fisi drove to fourth place at Monaco is the same car Alonso took to a championship last year.

[V12]

I think Alonso in that Renault at Monaco still wouldn't have had anything for the McLarens, he may have gave Massa a run for third. Fisi has taken a lot of stick over the past two years, simply because he is not the best, or one of top two or three, drivers out there, and I agree. But he is still VERY good and deserves a decent seat in F1 for a few years yet.

[Mickey T]

Mickey, I hope you are not suggesting that the car Fisi drove to fourth place at Monaco is the same car Alonso took to a championship last year.

No, just that Fisi's finishing position last year was commonly between fourth and 10th and, funnily enough, that's about where he's been this year.

So is it Renault that has gone off the boil, or is the one baseline they have from last year showing that they're actually in about the same place, with one important cog removed?

And, as for last year's car being especially designed for Alonso, a car runs out of grip at the front or the back and on the artificial confines of a racetrack (excepting monaco) drivers should be able to get the same out of it.

one might be more comfortable, but the ultimate pace shouldn't be that dissimilar. look at kubica this year on tyres he hates - doesn't enjoy the car, but he's on heidfeld's pace

[Valve Bounce]

The way I see it, This year Ferrari might be a better car in relation to Renault, and so is Mackalaren. But that's just a lucky guess :p :

[jens]

This year we are seeing the "good old Fisichella" again! In a mediocre car he outdrives his team-mate and shines. This scenario only strengthens the view that Fisi didn't reach his full potential during the last two years alongside Alonso. The only shame is that he has never had the chance to drive a top car, when he happens to be the team leader...

Next track - Montreal - is also "Fisi's circuit". Last year he was a bit nervous and a jump start ruined his podium chances, but otherwise he has shown that he is one of the best drivers at Montreal. I'm expecting him to put in another great drive and if Heikki can keep Giancarlo's speed there, then well done to him too!

[trumperZ06]

;) Hhmmmm... good point Mickey T...

Are the Renaults down from last year... or is Fisi simply driving at last year's level ???

Renault's engineers have said they are dis-appointed with this year's car performance... yet Fisi is finishing about as well as he did last year.

Either way... IMO... Fisi is NOT a number 1 team driver. Renault needs to look for new talent in 2008.

[BeansBeansBeans]

...or you guys could consider it another way.

Fisi's finishing positions this year are not, so far, dissimilar to his finishing positions from last year. fourth for him last year was a pretty good result.

yet, Alonso took the same car to a championship...

could it be that Fisi is still performing slightly below the car's potential, as he did last year, and that Heikki is seriously under performing and that, with an Alonso in it, it would still have championship potential?

I don't agree at all. Alonso would be lucky to get a podium in this year's Renault. Remember, Fisi had won a race by this time last year in the R26.

[futuretiger9]

Fisichella is really confounding the critics. He is the one who was expected to buckle under the pressure of a talented new team-mate and a mediocre car.

Fisi must maintain his consistency,however, and not fall prey to a mid-season dip in form.

Kovalainen has been a massive disappointment, even allowing for the car, and it would not surprise me to see him "rested" at some point this season.

[Racehound]

I think Alonso in that Renault at Monaco still wouldn't have had anything for the McLarens, he may have gave Massa a run for third. Fisi has taken a lot of stick over the past two years, simply because he is not the best, or one of top two or three, drivers out there, and I agree. But he is still VERY good and deserves a decent seat in F1 for a few years yet.
errrrrr....isnt Flashio Fisis manager???????.....fisi to toyota next year might be worth a 5er in the bookies!!!!!!!

[BeansBeansBeans]

errrrrr....isnt Flashio Fisis manager?

No, it's Enrico Zanarini.

[Sleeper]

errrrrr....isnt Flashio Fisis manager???????.....fisi to toyota next year might be worth a 5er in the bookies!!!!!!!
I think V12 said a decent seat, so that counts out Toyota ;)

As for Fisi, he's really driven well this year, getting the mximum from, or in Monacos case outperforming, the car. But I also think that it shows hes not championship materiel, he couldnt take the reigns when he came in to Renault in 05, was seriesly hammered last year and now the pressures off with an uncompetative car and rookie team mate, he's doing the busnuiss.

[trumperZ06]

I don't agree at all. Alonso would be lucky to get a podium in this year's Renault. Remember, Fisi had won a race by this time last year in the R26.

:p : Hhmmmm.... a Majority of.....

one !!! :rolleyes:

[stevie_gerrard]

Although fisi hasn't grabbed the initiative like Alonso did, and destroyed the field, he has consistently been trying to fight with the Ferrari's and Mclaren's even though they are quicker than the Renault. I don't think Renault can afford to lose him from the team with all the experience he has. Although he does need a more challenging partner to keep him on his toes.

[N. Jones]

Fisichella has never shown the killer instinct to push a team further than it's
"place" among the pack (I think of Michael with Ferrari in 96 or Hill with Jordan in 98 or Hill again when he was with Arrows in...uh..when he almost won at the Hungaroring that year... ). See Japan 2005 for an example of this. What Renault needs is someone to push the car past the positions they are currently gaining so that everyone on the team can work that much harder to improve the car.

Once that is done the results will come and people will see Renault fighting for podiums again.

[Valve Bounce]

:p : Hhmmmm.... a Majority of.....

one !!! :rolleyes:
Now that is unkind. There was one race where Fisi had mechanical problems and he threw his gloves down.

[jens]

Both in 2005 and 2006 there were a few races, where Fisichella matched Alonso or was even faster, so that's unfair to say that Alonso would have done a lot better in every race this season. We may debate about other three races, but in Australia and Monaco Fisichella took absolutely maximum out of the car and there is no way Alonso could have been better (especially as the car is now more to Fisi's liking than it was previously). Btw, last year without that quali penalty Fisi would have been at least 3rd, if not 2nd, at Monaco.

[aryan]

I complete see the point in Mickey T (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/member.php?u=87926)'s argument. I also think the Fish's final standings are not that dissimilar to his performances in 2005 and 2006, which makes me wonder it the Renault is that bad a car.

OK, so he won one race in each year those years. Which just shows that the R27 might be a tad behind R26 and R25, but certainly not by much.

I still like the Fish. I expected him to demolish Alonso in 2005, and I still think he is one of the better drivers out there. It's just a question of has the car's performance gone down this much, or is it just that the current drivers are not as good as Alonso?

To be honest, I think it's a bit of both.

[RaikkonenRules]

Exactly!! I don't think Heiki has done anything so far to justify his ride in the Renault.

A Renault that has turned out to be a complete bitch to drive is hardly ideal for a rookie to start with. Especially one that's only driven good F1 cars (R26) before then. :)

[ioan]

A Renault that has turned out to be a complete bitch to drive is hardly ideal for a rookie to start with. Especially one that's only driven good F1 cars (R26) before then. :)

A good driver will impress no matter the car.

[truefan72]

pretty safe IMO...but you never know Flavio

[Bezza]

Fisi's doing what he's good at. Bringing an average car home in the points after solidly qualifying it, beating his team-mate in the process.

I don't think Alonso would have been much better in the Renault this season than Fisi, if the car was setup equally. The car doesn't like fast corners, so Alonso wouldn't be able to push it.

Kovalainen is struggling and thats not because he's really bad, but Fisi is a tough team-mate. Look at his list of beaten team-mates:

Ralf
Wurz (obliterated)
Button (obliterated)
Sato (obliterated)
Firman (obliterated)
Massa

Alonso - the only one who beat him, and he's double world champion and the only one in the current field.

[Valve Bounce]

A Renault that has turned out to be a complete bitch to drive is hardly ideal for a rookie to start with. Especially one that's only driven good F1 cars (R26) before then. :)


When another driver starts chasing him in a second hand Honda, then yeah!! I begin to wonder. ;)

Let me put it another way: what has Heiki done that anyone here would believe he deserves his drive in F1, let alone with last year's championship winning team.

[wmcot]

When another driver starts chasing him in a second hand Honda, then yeah!! I begin to wonder. ;)

Let me put it another way: what has Heiki done that anyone here would believe he deserves his drive in F1, let alone with last year's championship winning team.

The problem would be that you can't just fire your drivers and fill the seats with a warm body and win races. Heiki is a relative rookie and needs some experience in actual F1 race conditions. Who would you suggest to replace him with? There aren't too many Lewis Hamilton's out there!

Same goes for Fisi - who would you replace him with? Ralf? You shouldn't get rid of a driver unless you have a pretty sure thing to replace him with. With the money involved in F1, you can't trust your cars to just anybody!

[PSfan]

When another driver starts chasing him in a second hand Honda, then yeah!! I begin to wonder. ;)

Let me put it another way: what has Heiki done that anyone here would believe he deserves his drive in F1, let alone with last year's championship winning team.


I guess it all boils down to what Renaults expectations of him was at the start of the year for us to determine if he has actually been underperforming. I think Renault handled Alonso's career well up until he left, I suspect they will do the same for Heikki. I believe Fisi was a short term solution signing, I expect that even if they retain him next season, the cars will start to be developed around Heikki's preferences, in an attempt to re-create what they had with Alonso.

[ioan]

Flav must have some nightmares, Heikki "the Anti-Alonso" is being beaten by Fisi! :p :

[futuretiger9]

Flav must have some nightmares, Heikki "the Anti-Alonso" is being beaten by Fisi! :p :


But will Briatore eventually swallow his pride, and take some corrective action?

[Valve Bounce]

The problem would be that you can't just fire your drivers and fill the seats with a warm body and win races. Heiki is a relative rookie and needs some experience in actual F1 race conditions. Who would you suggest to replace him with? There aren't too many Lewis Hamilton's out there!

Same goes for Fisi - who would you replace him with? Ralf? You shouldn't get rid of a driver unless you have a pretty sure thing to replace him with. With the money involved in F1, you can't trust your cars to just anybody!


One word, three letters, will bite and hurt. :up:

[ArrowsFA1]

According to Alan Permane: (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59435))

"Right now, Giancarlo is driving as well as I have ever seen him. Circumstances have been difficult, but he has worked hard on getting the most out of the car, pushed hard on every lap – and taken advantage of each small performance gain. He is in a very confident frame of mind, and the next two circuits are places where he has always raced very strongly."

[Viv]

That is true. He is doing pretty well, and has always done well at Canada, getting podiums in Benetton. But I think the actual test for Renault and Fisi (I mean test for their claim of being 3rd best with bmw) will be after these circuits. I think it's possible to push the car a little more than usual on circuits u are already good at/confident about..So I wouldn't really say they're back up there even if they do get similar results to bmw. Or maybe if both drivers finish with bmw then I'll take back my words :)

[N. Jones]

But will Briatore eventually swallow his pride, and take some corrective action?

Will Briatore even be around to see these changes through? Remember, there was talk of him retiring after this season...

[Racehound]

...or you guys could consider it another way.

Fisi's finishing positions this year are not, so far, dissimilar to his finishing positions from last year. fourth for him last year was a pretty good result.

yet, Alonso took the same car to a championship...

could it be that Fisi is still performing slightly below the car's potential, as he did last year, and that Heikki is seriously under performing and that, with an Alonso in it, it would still have championship potential?
i think you got it spot on mate!!!!!.....fisichella was trounced by Fernando totally and doesnt have the ability to perform at the highest level consistently over a season.....as for ghosn and symonds saying Fernando was only worth a couple of tenths a lap , well!!!!, theyre talking outta their backsides and they know it!!!! i wonder if fisichella is only still at renault coz Flashio is his bloody manager/agent....which means of course he gets a nice little earner outta fisichellas dosh!!!!!!!!!!....time fisi ukked off back to Rome to put his feet up, coz he aint never gonna win a wdc before the end of the universe.

[Valve Bounce]

...or you guys could consider it another way.

Fisi's finishing positions this year are not, so far, dissimilar to his finishing positions from last year. fourth for him last year was a pretty good result.

yet, Alonso took the same car to a championship...

could it be that Fisi is still performing slightly below the car's potential, as he did last year, and that Heikki is seriously under performing and that, with an Alonso in it, it would still have championship potential?

This has to be looked at from a neutral stance. I believe that the driving style of Fisi is quite different from Alonso's. I also believe that the Renault was developed to suit Alonso's driving style so that he could win the WDC and WCC for Renault. I also believe that initially Flavio favoured Alonso and frustrated Alonso to the degree that when something happened to Fisi's car and he came into the pits and threw down his gloves, Flavio admonished and humiliared Fisi publicly; I don't think Flav would have been game to treat the Spaniard in the same manner. I had a feeling that Fisi was always #2 in the team, and I suspect that he felt the same.

Then this year, the Renault is not as competitive as McLaren and Ferrari as it was last year.

That's my take.

[trumperZ06]

This has to be looked at from a neutral stance. I believe that the driving style of Fisi is quite different from Alonso's. I also believe that the Renault was developed to suit Alonso's driving style so that he could win the WDC and WCC for Renault. I also believe that initially Flavio favoured Alonso and frustrated Alonso to the degree that when something happened to Fisi's car and he came into the pits and threw down his gloves, Flavio admonished and humiliared Fisi publicly; I don't think Flav would have been game to treat the Spaniard in the same manner. I had a feeling that Fisi was always #2 in the team, and I suspect that he felt the same.

Then this year, the Renault is not as competitive as McLaren and Ferrari as it was last year.

That's my take.

:dozey: Hhmmmm... part of your statement seems to be... circular !!!

Fisi finished behind Alonso because Alonso was # 1... now that Fisi is # 1 the cars at fault because it was designed for Alonso.

Renault knew all last year that Alonso was leaving to go to McLaren soooo.... this years car certainly wasn't designed around Alonso's techniques.

;) Now Mickey T points out that Fisi's results have been about the same this year as last... even though he clearly is the # 1 driver @ Renault. Has the Renault fallen off so far as to be clearly behind BMW... or is Renault missing the leadership and capabilities of a true number 1 driver ???

That seems to be the question... and I would suggest Alonso would have been able to move the Renault up the grid !!!

:s mokin: Trumper

[jens]

In comparing this year's Fisi's results to last year's, you have to add one position if you want to make some car comparisons, because last year team-mate mostly finished ahead of him, which isn't happening this year.

And how would Alonso have done this year at Renault? In my calculations Alonso would have scored 4+3+3+4+5 in an ideal scenario from five rounds so far. That makes 19 points.

[trumperZ06]

In comparing this year's Fisi's results to last year's, you have to add one position if you want to make some car comparisons, because last year team-mate mostly finished ahead of him, which isn't happening this year.

And how would Alonso have done this year at Renault? In my calculations Alonso would have scored 4+3+3+4+5 in an ideal scenario from five rounds so far. That makes 19 points.

:dozey: Hhmmmm.... your logic is a bit confusing... at least to me. Prehaps you can expand on your statement.

;) Alonso is still finishing ahead of Fisi.. be it in another brand, McLaren. So IMO... Fisi hasn't lost nor would he have gained any points from this year to last.

Mario Andretti says that Alonso could solve Renault's woes and that Renault would likely be futher up the standings this year if...
Alonso hadn't changed teams. He's quoted in todays article at http://www.Formula1complete.com.

[Racehound]

No, it's Enrico Zanarini.
oops!!!!

[Racehound]

:p : Hhmmmm.... a Majority of.....

one !!! :rolleyes:
mmmmm....i wouldnt be so sure there...............mickey t makes a good point about theis elsewhere....

[Racehound]

:dozey: Hhmmmm.... your logic is a bit confusing... at least to me. Prehaps you can expand on your statement.

;) Alonso is still finishing ahead of Fisi.. be it in another brand, McLaren. So IMO... Fisi hasn't lost nor would he have gained any points from this year to last.

Mario Andretti says that Alonso could solve Renault's woes and that Renault would likely be futher up the standings this year if...
Alonso hadn't changed teams. He's quoted in todays article at www.Formula1complete.com (http://www.Formula1complete.com).
yeah ...i read it with relish.....so true....ghosn talks a load o rubbish and he knows it.....and he makes pat symonds spout the same crap .....Alonso could get AT LEAST another second a lap outta the 27.......hes just makin his excuses now for renault leavin f1 in 2 years time coz they aint gettin the cc anytime in the next 10 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!......ghosn!!!!!......eat my shorts !!!! we know the top brass at renault already told you 2 years max for another cc or they pull out!!!!!... :)

[trumperZ06]

mmmmm....i wouldnt be so sure there...............mickey t makes a good point about theis elsewhere....

:dozey: Yeah... I'm sure.

The point is... maybe the new # 1 "driver" has something to do....

with the drop-off in Renault's performance !!! :p :

[A.F.F.]

Renault is in big trouble with their lineup. One has-been and one never-will-be ain't gonna get them far :mark:

[Valve Bounce]

:dozey: Hhmmmm... part of your statement seems to be... circular !!!

Fisi finished behind Alonso because Alonso was # 1... now that Fisi is # 1 the cars at fault because it was designed for Alonso.

Renault knew all last year that Alonso was leaving to go to McLaren soooo.... this years car certainly wasn't designed around Alonso's techniques.

;) Now Mickey T points out that Fisi's results have been about the same this year as last... even though he clearly is the # 1 driver @ Renault. Has the Renault fallen off so far as to be clearly behind BMW... or is Renault missing the leadership and capabilities of a true number 1 driver ???

That seems to be the question... and I would suggest Alonso would have been able to move the Renault up the grid !!!

:s mokin: Trumper

Not really Trumper. Basically I opined that the Renault for 2005 and 2006 was designed around Alonso's driving style because Flav had designated him as #1.

This year, Renault has not kept up with McLaren nor Ferrari, and my opinion is that Alonso would not have been as dominant this year had he remained at Renault. But then again, I am just an inveterate armchair (read sofa really) F1 fan, and I certainly would not say that the former champ Mario was incorrect. As Mario once said:: "Opinions are like arseholes - everyone has a different one"

But I do have the feeling that Flav always favoured Alonso over Fisi. In fact, Flav only hired Fisi because he fired Jarno.

Nevertheless, I don't think that Fisi is as good a driver as Alonso.

[ArrowsFA1]

Renault is in big trouble with their lineup. One has-been and one never-will-be ain't gonna get them far :mark:
And Piquet is hanging around in the background waiting for his chance with the likes of Emerson Fittipaldi promoting his cause:

"Talking about natural talent, I think Nelsinho could surprise as much as Hamilton has surprised. I talked to Flavio Briatore in Canada. I said 'Flavio, you want to put Nelsinho in immediately. He likes the idea but he said 'but I want my cars to be stronger for Nelson to be a competitor.' If I were Flavio I'd put him in this year."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59979

[ioan]

Not really Trumper. Basically I opined that the Renault for 2005 and 2006 was designed around Alonso's driving style because Flav had designated him as #1.

This year, Renault has not kept up with McLaren nor Ferrari, and my opinion is that Alonso would not have been as dominant this year had he remained at Renault....

But I do have the feeling that Flav always favoured Alonso over Fisi. In fact, Flav only hired Fisi because he fired Jarno.

Nevertheless, I don't think that Fisi is as good a driver as Alonso.

Have to day that I agree with this.
And if someone believes that Alonso would have constantly challenged the podium in the Renault this year, he/she are not realistic.

[Garry Walker]

Have to day that I agree with this.
And if someone believes that Alonso would have constantly challenged the podium in the Renault this year, he/she are not realistic.

Indeed, but unfortunately there actually are people like this.

[pino]

"Fisichella has done a very good job considering the car we have. We must work with them to improve, without pressure." - Flavio


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59987

[leopard]

without pressure but within a target :)

[Garry Walker]

I think the recent comments of Alonso, where he has shown that he wants nr.1 treatment only add more credibility to the stories that Fisi never got a fair chance against FA at Renault and there was a lot of favouritism for FA.

[Ranger]

Fisi never got a fair chance

...And your point is?

You could say that about the bloke who partnered the guy who had won 5 straight titles before Alonso entered the hall of fame as well. Fact is that inner-team favouritism with someone who looks like they could have a shot at the title usually gets to within 2 rounds of acheiving it, and many times it has been acheived by doing so.

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Hhmmm.... I thought this thread was about how safe Fisi's job IS @ Renault... currently in 2007 !!!

If so... VB's comments about the 2005 & 2006 chassis being designed to favor Alonso... while true, doesn't account for Fisi's and Renault's current results, ie. a circluar arguement .

We ALL know the 07 chassis wasn't designed with Renault expecting that Alonso would be driving.

We do know Renault is trailing the front runners, now including BMW, whereas last year, they were up at the front of the pack.

The question concerning Renault's drop off seems to be:

1. What portion of the fall is due to Renault's changes in engine & chassis

2. What portion of the fall off is due to the loss/replacement of their number 1 driver ???

Mario Andretti, and a long list of many others, including myself, have indicated they believe Renault would be closer to the front if Alonso hadn't left.

Leaving us with the possible conclusion that Fisi is in jepordy ie. Fisi's job is at risk !!!

:p : No one... to my knowledge, has said that Renault would be leading the pack this year, with or without Alonso.

[leopard]

The question concerning Renault's drop off seems to be:

1. What portion of the fall is due to Renault's changes in engine & chassis

2. What portion of the fall off is due to the loss/replacement of their number 1 driver ???


what about 50% for no 1 and 50% for no 2? quite fair.