View Full Version : What went wrong at Subaru?
BTCC2
28th May 2007, 17:45
So, its the beginning of the 2006 WRC season Subaru, and Petter Solberg are amongst the favouirites to take the title with Loeb and Gronholm both moving teams, and after a competetive showing in 2005.
But the year starts off badly with Solberg scoring 0 points from the first two rallies. And things don't get a lot better for the whole year, with a mixture of reliability problems and well, just being miles off the pace Solberg finishes in a low 6th place in the championship.
In 2007 things have gone pretty much the same for Subaru and Solberg.
So, this brings me to my question, exactly what caused Subarus castastophic slide from WRC title contenders to un reliable mid field runners?
L5->R5/CR
28th May 2007, 18:20
Prodrive...
Non rally engineering staff!
As well as a less than perfect weight distribution to work from, the size of the car and length of overhangs are also less than ideal IMO.. There comes a point in the evolutions of a chassis where a brick wall is reached in terms of forward development, I think Subaru have experienced this and really need to start from scratch with a new car instead of trying to save weight in places where strength of chassis/components is then compromised.
Others may dissagree... feel free. :)
DonJippo
28th May 2007, 19:58
You can find lot of answers from here http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=246195&postcount=1
proco2020
28th May 2007, 20:06
Will Subaru still be in the WRC next year? I'd be surprised.
Lousada
28th May 2007, 20:27
Bad drivers that do not give proper feedback to their engineers :dork:
[/flame]
You can find lot of answers from here http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=246195&postcount=1
That one only shows one post Don, so try this one..
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=246195#post246195
DonJippo
28th May 2007, 20:54
That one only shows one post Don, so try this one..
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=246195#post246195
Yes my bad thanks for posting right link :up:
swordsman
28th May 2007, 21:05
Will Subaru still be in the WRC next year? I'd be surprised.
Rumours about both Citroen and Ford leaving... If so - why would Subaru be left? I'm afraid WRC is going straight down...
BTCC2
28th May 2007, 21:14
I don't think Citroen will leave. They've only been back for a year.
Bad drivers that do not give proper feedback to their engineers :dork:
Are you including Solberg in that? Atkinson- maybe. Sarrazin- certainly but Solberg?
I think the fact that Ed Wood was an ex Ferrari F1 driver and Steve Farrell was from an Australian touring cars background were certainly factors. Coupled with the lack of power from the boxer engine and significant steps forward by Ford for the 03 Focus (Loriaux designed car) Citroen's excellent and well funded package moved development ahead so fast. I do think Subaru will be there next year as they have a new car coming. Also Christophe Chappelin and now Graham Moore are back at Banbury seems to indicate things are getting back on track. However - PSA / Citroen's new senior management are certainly looking at all aspects of the company business plan, with predicted job losses in mainstream factories and also Ford not financially well off. Coupled with Subaru's shrinking market share (already small volume) the lack of value for manufactureres in WRC exposure and Prodrive latching onto a resurgent (interest wise) F1 with slices of the post Concorde agreement F1 cake tempting DR, who knows what will happen. These Vision 2012 guys need to realise unless they sort the WRC soon it wont be around.
AndyRAC
28th May 2007, 22:11
I think the fact that Ed Wood was an ex Ferrari F1 driver and Steve Farrell was from an Australian touring cars background were certainly factors. Coupled with the lack of power from the boxer engine and significant steps forward by Ford for the 03 Focus (Loriaux designed car) Citroen's excellent and well funded package moved development ahead so fast. I do think Subaru will be there next year as they have a new car coming. Also Christophe Chappelin and now Graham Moore are back at Banbury seems to indicate things are getting back on track. However - PSA / Citroen's new senior management are certainly looking at all aspects of the company business plan, with predicted job losses in mainstream factories and also Ford not financially well off. Coupled with Subaru's shrinking market share (already small volume) the lack of value for manufactureres in WRC exposure and Prodrive latching onto a resurgent (interest wise) F1 with slices of the post Concorde agreement F1 cake tempting DR, who knows what will happen. These Vision 2012 guys need to realise unless they sort the WRC soon it wont be around.
Agree absolutely, Subaru/Prodrive have definately taken their eye off the ball, mainly by all the F1 entry business. Agree about the future (or lack of) WRC, it's by no means certain that Citroen will continue, seem to remember an agreement they had with Michelin. Also the changes to the WRC have got ot be made sooner than 2012, the sport is dying, last few week I have noticed former sponsors now in Moto GP and F1; Martini, Telefonica Movistar. Drastic action is needed, less rounds, cheap easy to sell cars that look spectacular. But nothing is ever done, ..... don't say we weren't warned..
cut the b.s.
28th May 2007, 23:10
Bad drivers that do not give proper feedback to their engineers :dork:
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bad engineers dont listen to their drivers.......
A.F.F.
28th May 2007, 23:33
Put it anyway you want but isn't it ridicilous a team that scale can't get their act together in two years??
Buzz Lightyear
29th May 2007, 01:38
Citroen recently commited to 2009.
How official this is, i dont know.. but it was after the single tyre control was announced, so they continue even without michelin/bf/
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/index.php?&newsID=10204&view=news_detail
Ford, dunno. Maybe 'when' they win drivers and manufacturers, they will leave WRC, job done.... doubt it. BP seems to be putting in some good budget, so making it not too expensive for Ford.
If Marcus retires, they will need Petter, as no other driver could sustain a title challenge. Latvala i am sure has done enough already to prove he has the speed. But where he will fit into ford next year I dont know? His management will probably be looking for a works seat, but I doubt if this is possible.
Subaru would be left without lead driver....
Why not take a punt on 2 new young drivers.. sure they havent the car to compete at the top anyway, so they might as well using this time to let young guys cut their teeth. They will also be saving €2m euros or whatever on driver salaries...
To be honest.. the whole Subaru need new impetus.. new colour scheme.. new drivers... ...new car.... new sponsors... new limited edition cars... etc... anyone else agree think the 'blue subaru' image is a bit too dated?
New funky sponsor... and tip all the money into R&D, and getting a proper testing budget.
Bad drivers that do not give proper feedback to their engineers
More like bad engineers that won't listen to driver's feedback. Steve Farrell (or was it Howarth) even admitted to such in a recent Australian newspaper article.
GigiGalliNo1
29th May 2007, 07:34
wtf? when and who from did we hear that Citroen and Ford will be leaving the WRC? :o You can't say something like that! Sooo guessing no more of a championship.... so where and when will this all end? And be off the face of the earth?! :|
Mickey T
29th May 2007, 11:03
More like bad engineers that won't listen to driver's feedback. Steve Farrell (or was it Howarth) even admitted to such in a recent Australian newspaper article.
one of mine, was it? Herald-Sun?
kleisj
29th May 2007, 12:10
When Solberg's contract expiring at Subaru?
Woodeye
29th May 2007, 12:47
wtf? when and who from did we hear that Citroen and Ford will be leaving the WRC?
I would like to get some more information about these rumours too...
Lousada
29th May 2007, 13:55
More like bad engineers that won't listen to driver's feedback. Steve Farrell (or was it Howarth) even admitted to such in a recent Australian newspaper article.
Solberg is a world champion, highly rated by experts and he has great pr value. Yet nobody in Subaru seems to have any real respect for what is basicly their most important employee. If he had any commanding personality he would have told all those engineers to get lost if they didn't do his way. At least he certainly would not have renewed his contract. If the engineers are loose on an ego-trip, it's because Solberg lets them.
I think we all agree that Petter can drive as well as any other in the WRC. But so far he has not shown that he can make the car, and more important, the whole team, perform better.
koko0703
29th May 2007, 22:36
Subaru definitely has lots of problems with their car and needs some drastic change to make it competitive again. But I don't think they will leave WRC just because they can't get the result right now. Petter is contracted until 2009, and Xavier Pons is already announced to drive Subaru next season with option for 2009.
I don't know much about the technical side of the problem, but I think one of the step toward winning is to hire a experienced-matured test driver. From 1994 to 2003, Subaru had the veteran drivers such as Carlos, Colin, Juha, and Tommi to give feedback to the development of car. IMO 2004 car was at the peak, which probably had lots of imput from Tommi. Then after Subaru lost the input from Tommi and started to rely on Petter, the car started going down hill. Petter is a good driver but maybe not a good tester.
Mickey T
30th May 2007, 02:17
Subaru has a terrific test driver in Pasi Hagstrom. Pasi was also there when the team was successful, so that hasn't changed.
what subaru is going through has very little to do with its driving personnel.
It relates to engineering resources, philosophical engineering decisions and the compounded effect of wallpapering over cracks that goes back nearly five years.
one of mine, was it? Herald-Sun?
Yep :D Tried to find it on the web so I could put a link to it, but had no luck.
L5->R5/CR
30th May 2007, 06:22
Subaru has a terrific test driver in Pasi Hagstrom. Pasi was also there when the team was successful, so that hasn't changed.
what subaru is going through has very little to do with its driving personnel.
It relates to engineering resources, philosophical engineering decisions and the compounded effect of wallpapering over cracks that goes back nearly five years.
I'm not going to disagree with you but....
There is a distinct impression being given that in terms of race pace, and the feedback that is needed to take the car to the final step, that there is a lack of useful feedback. Either the team isn't listening or Petter/Chris lack the insight and experience to not explain what is just simply wrong with the car but what they need to do to make it better. From numerous sources, video and audio feeds as well, there seems to be a consistent theme from Petter, and to a lesser extent Chris, of "this isn't right on the car I need the car to do X".
Pasi is a great driver. But a tester does not make a car a world beater. There needs to be inputs to take the car the last leg from the teams drivers. The results based evidence suggests in part that the team is not being able to utilize good information for this last step (I'm not going to say that it isn't possible that the team just isn't listening, its possible, but it seems more likely that the crucial insights just aren't there).
Mickey T
30th May 2007, 08:12
The problem is not really as you say. the engineers know exactly, precisely how the problems manifest themselves for the drivers and how that translates in the stages, the offs and the slow times.
they've been in the cars, they know what the drivers are feeling and the understand the drivers' frustrations. the problems are not consistent or logical.
the engineers just don't understand precisely what the problem is in engineering terms and how to fix it, which is not the fault of the drivers.
without exception in the current era, drivers do not engineer their own cars or find engineering solutions to problems. the cars have become far too complicated for that.
martinG44
30th May 2007, 10:06
What was Ed Wood's role at Ferrari?
DonJippo
30th May 2007, 16:26
Subaru Impreza and it's boxer engine as a basis for modern WRC car just don't work...it does not matter how much you twist and turn it it's just don't work...
WRXedUSA
30th May 2007, 20:17
1. Reliability. Every rally it's something new breaking, whether it be from a "off" or not. Rally cars have to be tough, and take abuse. The whole watersplash thing a few years ago. what a joke.
2. Over engineering. I believe they have simply over-engineered so many aspects of the car, it's prone to break.
3. Boxer Power. Or the lackthereof. Most pathetic powerband ever. They seem to run the engine at the limit all the time. What does that do for 1000km of reliablity + paired events?
4. Car design: Hell, even Skoda beat Subaru to the Hatch bangwagon. Large 4 sedans wont works with passive diffs. They just wont.
5. Tests. What's the point of "testing" when you don't have a benchmark? Subaru can go as fast as they want, but they are still lightyears behind Ford.
6. The car gives so little help to the driver, I'm sure Petter has to drive outside of his comfort zone to make a respectable finish, contrary to your normal pacesetters of Loeb/Gronholm/Hirvonen.
L5->R5/CR
30th May 2007, 22:11
Steve Farrell is reportedly leaving the rally car operations and they are bringing in a new guy.
Anyone else not excited about this development?
they will bring in Graham Moore as chief rally engineer, and David Lapworth will help with the 2008 car development.
grugsticles
31st May 2007, 05:38
David was the head honcho in the engineering department in 2003, wasnt he?
koko0703
31st May 2007, 06:22
I don't know who Graham Moore is, but I think the return of David Lapworth is a good move. Afterall he is the one who has built Subaru-Prodirve program, and I thought it was stupid decision to take him out last year just because of a half season of poor performance.
Brother John
31st May 2007, 12:38
:rolleyes: When I see on TV the coverage from last year on discovery channel there is only one answer!
Almost everything and the drivers do not decide themselves which tyres they can use!
WRC2006
31st May 2007, 15:17
For long time ago, I thaught that the car is built around the driver?!! But it seems that I may be wrong?! What I know is that the Citroen is built around Sebastien Loeb and that is why he is dominating this sport because he has a perfect car which fit 100% with his driving style. (Don't think that I am his fan, but this is a fact).
Right, the driver is not the only one to decide for the tires, but the driver knows the best tires to fit with his car depending on certain conditions of the road or weather. If the driver don't give precise and accurate info on the behaviour of his car following the conditions of the road, how best do you think the engineers or the Guys in charge to collect the info on road could be?
If the engineers don't understand and do what the drivers are asking to change or modify for thr car, so why not show them the door and bring in the capable engineers?
For me the drivers (Petter and Chris) played a part in the poor result of the team, apart their owns mistakes (which are enough compared to their rivals) they failed as well to develop the car and turn it in the competitive car. Their responsability is involved in the poor result. They are there to develop the car not enjoy the pay of millions of $$$$ ( maybe N/A to Chris)
I don't know who Graham Moore is, but I think the return of David Lapworth is a good move. Afterall he is the one who has built Subaru-Prodirve program, and I thought it was stupid decision to take him out last year just because of a half season of poor performance.
Graham Moore was engineer in charge of transmission and chassis development in the late 1990's to 2002. He was very much involved in the P2000 project and when things were good with Subaru transmissions & chassis was well handling.
Mickey T
1st June 2007, 10:51
The problem is not really as you say. the engineers know exactly, precisely how the problems manifest themselves for the drivers and how that translates in the stages, the offs and the slow times.
they've been in the cars, they know what the drivers are feeling and the understand the drivers' frustrations. the problems are not consistent or logical.
the engineers just don't understand precisely what the problem is in engineering terms and how to fix it.
Just spoke to some senior people at SWRT.
They've found it...
grugsticles
1st June 2007, 14:08
Obviously!!!
Does this mean that Subaru are a chance for the Manufactures championship? (far fetched I know, but here's hoping:P)
jaytee10375
3rd June 2007, 16:47
Rumours about both Citroen and Ford leaving... If so - why would Subaru be left? I'm afraid WRC is going straight down...
Where did you hear of Ford leaving the WRC? Not a very reliable source I'm afraid.
koko0703
4th June 2007, 05:00
Where did you hear of Ford leaving the WRC? Not a very reliable source I'm afraid.
I guess "leaving" is not a right word but "commitment". At the end of 2004 season Ford committed to 4 year WRC program, and 2008 is the last year of their current commitment. So given the not-so-great financial state of Ford coupled with poor quality of WRC, Ford may not renew their commitment in the sports, but at this point, the possibility is anybody's guess....
Back to topic of the thread, Subaru's performance in Acropolis was the most encouraging of last 1.5 seasons. The first day's road position may have helped them a bit but some stage wins when Marcus and Loeb were fighting, and most importantly both car finished in the points. I hope they will continue to improve over the break and bring more competitive car to Finland in August.
bt52b
18th June 2007, 17:28
During an interview after Aston Martin won the GT1 class, DR strongly hinted they would come back to challenge for overall victory.
So not content with increasing F1 distractions, Prodrive will have an even bigger sportscar commitment. Will it impact on their WRC program in a bigger way?
AndyRAC
19th June 2007, 00:04
It wouldn't surprise me, after all Subaru no longer use the WRC in their adverts for their road cars any more. Seems as though they're trying to distance themselves from the sport.
jparker
19th June 2007, 05:31
New Prodrive, new car, new hopes ............
http://media.techeblog.com/images/subaru_wrx_1.jpg
AndyRAC
19th June 2007, 09:40
New Prodrive, new car, new hopes ............
http://media.techeblog.com/images/subaru_wrx_1.jpg
Would look better as a 3 door. Not sure, just doesn't look like a Subaru...
White Sauron
19th June 2007, 10:19
we'll get used to it soon...
Brother John
19th June 2007, 10:20
we'll get used to it soon...
Lol! :) :s mokin: :p :
AndyRAC
19th June 2007, 11:03
Lol! :) :s mokin: :p :
I'm sure it will grow on me. How do we know they will continue in WRC? Personally I'm not that optimistic.....
Woodeye
19th June 2007, 16:59
I'm sure it will grow on me. How do we know they will continue in WRC? Personally I'm not that optimistic.....
Because the majority of the Imprezas sold are WRX or WRX STI models. And what is the basis of that car? The one used in rallies. So, will they continue? Yes they will.
How do we know they will continue in WRC? Personally I'm not that optimistic.....
The car in that photo looks the same size and layout as the WTCC cars, SEAT etc.
leno
19th June 2007, 19:31
they will stay in rally. i m 100% sure
Because the majority of the Imprezas sold are WRX or WRX STI models. And what is the basis of that car? The one used in rallies. So, will they continue? Yes they will.
Couldnt the same be said about Mitsubishi?
koko0703
20th June 2007, 04:14
Considering Subaru announced the signing of Xavier Pons for next year and has Petter under contract, I am pretty sure they will continue next year and maybe another year. But beyond that, all depends on this new car. If it brings back glory days to Subaru, they will most likely continue. However if their new car fails, then I think that will be it. Afterall, just look at what happened to Mitsubishi, Skoda, and Peugeot in recent years after their new cars didn't live up to the hype.... I consider this new Impreza to be make-or-break car for the team.
bowler
20th June 2007, 06:59
Couldnt the same be said about Mitsubishi?
mitsi have never marketed like subaru.
subaru built their brand on a rally image, mitsi have chosen different paths
AndyRAC
20th June 2007, 08:46
Mitsubishi haven't really used Rallying at all, I remember a story from 1997, on the eve of the RAC, Colt cars were holding a bash, almost unaware the title decider was going on. The Lancer VI was the first that could be bought from a main dealers, the 5 before could only be bought on grey import. Regarding Subaru, just look at one of their recent adverts in the papers, nothing is mentioned about WRC at all, maybe getting ready for when they do pull out, or maybe they don't want to be connected to such a 'bad' sport.
Leon
20th June 2007, 08:58
Mitsubishi haven't really used Rallying at all, I remember a story from 1997, on the eve of the RAC, Colt cars were holding a bash, almost unaware the title decider was going on. The Lancer VI was the first that could be bought from a main dealers, the 5 before could only be bought on grey import. Regarding Subaru, just look at one of their recent adverts in the papers, nothing is mentioned about WRC at all, maybe getting ready for when they do pull out, or maybe they don't want to be connected to such a 'bad' sport.
It could just be the FACT that they donīt have anything positive to advertise regarding their participation to the WRC nowadays. Not any championships lately.
AndyRAC
20th June 2007, 09:31
It could just be the FACT that they donīt have anything positive to advertise regarding their participation to the WRC nowadays. Not any championships lately.
No, quite right, though I do remember late last year the boss of Subaru in UK was meant to have said they were trying to move away from the Rally image, and into a higher image, a la BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc
Doesn't say much for the WRC when of the 3 Manufacturers left in it, none of them really use their success/involvement in it to promote their cars. In fact why bother taking part??
Woodeye
20th June 2007, 13:59
Couldnt the same be said about Mitsubishi?
I think that you could say the same thing with Lancer.
You have to bear in mind that Subaru is highly dependent of Impreza whilst Mitsubishi has wider selection of different models that have nothing to do with rally.
Captain VXR
20th June 2007, 17:33
I hope Subaru stay until the Imhealthandsafetya comes
Simon Speichert
20th June 2007, 19:05
mitsi have never marketed like subaru.
subaru built their brand on a rally image, mitsi have chosen different paths
Nearly every Mitsubishi ad in North America now makes reference to their Dakar successes, with a considerable amount of Dakar footage used. Ads for the new Lancer show Lancer rally cars (sure, no recent footage but it's better than nothing). Their new ad slogan is "For Your Daily Rally".
jparker
20th July 2007, 11:12
Peter Solberg:
There are still some more details to sort but it looks like they have found the biggest problem that has been in the car for a couple of years.
http://www.crash.net/news_view.asp?cid=4&id=151484
Does anyone believe that? I would like to be true, but I just hope this is not just another optimistic talk by Peter. Also, what that problem could of been? In the interview he says "I don't want to talk about it"?!?!?
Makes me think it was something simple and significant that was allways being overlooked by the racecar engineers (who were in the fore from 2004 to mid 2007)that has now been sorted since the rally engineers re-took control?
Gard
20th July 2007, 11:44
Does anyone believe that? I would like to be true, but I just hope this is not just another optimistic talk by Peter. Also, what that problem could of been? In the interview he says "I don't want to talk about it"?!?!?
Friction in the transmission!?
leno
20th July 2007, 23:20
transmission is rally big problem at subaru i hardly believe they improve it
DonJippo
22nd July 2007, 21:05
Does anyone believe that? I would like to be true, but I just hope this is not just another optimistic talk by Peter. Also, what that problem could of been? In the interview he says "I don't want to talk about it"?!?!?
Based on the images and news from Petter's test in Finland it does not look good for Subaru, he was really frustrated and lot of time was spend on setting the car instead of driving with it.
jparker
23rd July 2007, 04:31
Based on the images and news from Petter's test in Finland it does not look good for Subaru, he was really frustrated and lot of time was spend on setting the car instead of driving with it.
Well that makes sense. If we read Peter's statement carefully, he says "they have found the biggest problem". I guess that means they have to fix it now.
Patwrc
23rd July 2007, 15:33
Even if they have found the problem, it doesn't mean they have already fixed it, that's the point.
Daniel
23rd July 2007, 18:53
Makes me think it was something simple and significant that was allways being overlooked by the racecar engineers (who were in the fore from 2004 to mid 2007)that has now been sorted since the rally engineers re-took control?
http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~4~id~151516.htm Condidering Petter said this I suspect what you say is pretty much right :)
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