Are Brits negative?

[Mach24]

What a champ Englands James Toseland is!

JT won the Superbike World Championship in 2004 as a 24 year old. The competition at this time was not as strong as it has been but no one wins a world campionship on luck alone.

JT curently leads the 2007 championship on his Ten Kate Honda.

Now the British press are taking a swipe at the depth of the talent at home because there is no one on the world scene to take over from JT.

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorsport/story/0,,2089252,00.html

Anyone here been watching the British Superbike Championship? Camier, Rea, Sykes, Hill, Crutchlow! Not one yet in their mid 20's. I think the Brits have a huge future.

Here in OZ we support our up and coming (the underdog) where as elsewhere this is not always the case.

I know I go to the Aussie rounds and see a bunch that could go to Europe an blow em' away (look at Mark Aitchison).

(Aussie) Josh Brookes is second to none for the future but he will have a hell of a time against the aformentioned Brits when they graduate!

[ChrisS]

the last paragraph of the article I completely agree with. Brit racers must aim at more than BSB. When a young British superstock or supersport rider is asked what his goal is and he says to race in BSB then that is a problem with lack of ambition

BSB promoters and British fans often place BSB at the same level as SBK or even higher but the truth is BSB is a national series, SBK is a worldwide (mostly European) series.

As for Brits being negative, I cant answer for the British fans but the British media seem to be of the extremes, either they are extremely positive, when their supported driver, rider, athlete can do no wrong or extremely negative when when their supported athlete can do nothing right.

[Silver]

As mentioned above, much of it is down to the media. They'll build us up just to knock us down. You only have to look at the hype that surrounds the England football team before every tournament (and the reaction when we invariably get knocked out in the quarter finals) to see that.

A lot of the problem in getting a British rider onto the world scene is sponsorship. A lot of the Spanish, Italian etc riders carry personal sponsors which can help them secure a ride, whereas we don't seem to have the same level of commercial commitment over here.

[AndyRAC]

the last paragraph of the article I completely agree with. Brit racers must aim at more than BSB. When a young British superstock or supersport rider is asked what his goal is and he says to race in BSB then that is a problem with lack of ambition

BSB promoters and British fans often place BSB at the same level as SBK or even higher but the truth is BSB is a national series, SBK is a worldwide (mostly European) series.

As for Brits being negative, I cant answer for the British fans but the British media seem to be of the extremes, either they are extremely positive, when their supported driver, rider, athlete can do no wrong or extremely negative when when their supported athlete can do nothing right.

I quite agree, BSB might be good to watch but it is a national championship, the WSBK is still and always be behind MotoGP. It depresses me that more Brits aren't interested in Moto GP, especially the young riders, riding superbikes is no preparation for Moto GP, which is why I hope Bradley Smith goes nowhere near one. It is shameful that a country the size of Britain can't get sponsorship for young riders, it seems most companies are just interested in sponsoring football. Look at the British F1 GP, spomsored by a Spanish company, whats going on...???

[Mach24]

Please do excuse my sweeping generalisation in the thread title.

Having just found BSB and watched each race in awe of the depth and talent I find the comments in the news article a little out of sorts.

Camier and Rea will be in the main game soon! There can be no question of that and I get the vibe that Rea has the ability to go as far as he wants (MotoGP if he chooses).

Is it that wages are particularly good in BSB? Does this halt the desire to move on? I know I would prefer to compete in a World Championship over a National any day.

However another example of this is the AMA, Mat Mladin as the prime example, he knows he is earning shizzer loads and making the move to WSBK would pay around the same mark, why leave the comfort zone? He has acheived a lot and obviously does not want a new challenge. It will be interesting to see what Ben Spies does after all Ben Bostrom tried and failed.

In contrast the Aussie championship has (in relative terms) no money. Whilst a small number of riders are professionals I wonder how they afford to build a safe financial future. Therefore they are searching for a paid ride in Europe, England, USA, there is little to no sponsorship in Oz so they need to be talented or they fail.

All Brits are not negative and one article does not maketh a nation but it sure must play on ones mind.

[NinjaMaster]

I pretty much agree with the article from the piont-of-view that Britain has very little in the way of talent on the international arena at the moment. However, domestically there is some very nice talent coming through but they need to make good on that talent with a ruthless desire to win.
That is a good point about money and comfort Mach. I think Australians do so well because:
a. the money in Australian racing is crapola (I think 3 time champ Shawn Giles has a construction job and I know that factory Kwak rider Wayne Maxwell workds in a bike shop)
b. they have to travel so far to get there that they might as well give it everything they have to make it worth it.
c. they don't know anyone so the only there aren't really any distractions. The only thing to do is concentrate on their racing.

Also, just quickly on Mladin, I remember him saying that he wasn't interested in going to WSB a few years ago but I didn't believe him. He definately meant it the last couple of years now he has a family but I think that he was peeved he wasn't offered a ride for Zook in WSB when the Japanese factories returned and that was his explanation that even if he was offered a ride it wasn't worth it. I reckon even he would admit that the glory of World Champ beats American Champ any day of the week.

Anyway, good luck to the young Brits. There is plenty of opportunity out there for those who are willing to work hard enough for it.

[Silver]

One thing to bear in mind too is the quality of ride, of which personal sponsorship plays a part. Look at some of the recent British riders like Hodgson who went to MotoGP on a crap bike. It certainly did him no good. Leon Haslam has already raced in GPs, but on bikes that were not top draw. I guess it looks better to prove yourself in a strong national championship in order to raise the chances of getting a top ride in an international series.

[ArmchairBikeFan]

The article doesn't mention the Suzuka 8-hour, which the Japanese factories rate above WSBK and arguably above MotoGP.
Leon Camier has already made a big name for himself at Suzuka, and I believe Johnny Rea's already been over there to test for the next one.
Casey Stoner's right that the "easy" way into MotoGP is through 125 and 250, but let's not forget that the last MotoGP racewinner and pole position holder both came from WSBK and the reigning world champion came from AMA SBK.
It's a strange time for BSB, the older British riders are fading and the new stars are all in their 1st or 2nd years of the championship, and can hardly be expected to beat the likes of Kiyonari and Lavilla too often just yet.

[Silver]

Here's an interesting extract from an article on crash.net:

The only Brit in the Supersport class [at Silverstone] was Craig Jones, the 22-year-old who is backed by Gary Ekerold's Revè Ekerold Honda Racing team. Ekerold is a South African - the son of the 1980 350cc world champion Jon Ekerold - and has a pretty good fix on why Britain doesn't produce a stream of world class riders.

"BSB [the British Superbike Championship] is just too good," he said at Silverstone. "It's simply too strong. It's too easy for British riders to race in England.

"When an Australian rider comes to Europe he's travelled 10,000 miles and there's nothing for him to go back to. The same applies to a South African like me: I've come here to be world champion and I'm going to make sure that that happens."

In Ekerold's case, he means a world champion as a team owner. Last year he won the British Supersport title with Cal Crutchlow as his rider, and used that as a springboard to launch into World Supersport. But problems arose.

"It isn't just the riders, it's the corporates, too," Ekerold said. "Why would British companies get into world championship racing when they can get everything they need from the British series? I lost Nokia, Northpoint [a powder coating company] and Jewson [builders' merchants] as sponsors when I moved to World Supersport.

"We had one of the best funded teams in Britain. Now we're struggling for funding, and it's showing in our results."

[Mach24]

Interesting scenario really. BSB is so strong that it is self sufficient, yet this self sufficiency is the element that potentially holds Brit riders back from taking the step to the International stage.

Being an Aussie and witnessing the niche sport that is elite Motorcycle Roadracing at home I would take the self sufficiency any day over the current state of play in OZ.

However there is nothing like having a competitor at the elite level in any sport representing your nation.

I hope the BSB continues to boom. The crowd shots I have seen on TV have been enormous and this can only be good for the sport in general. Who knows a Brit team may head into WSBK and the momentum will swing again.

I am sure Honda have big plans for both Camier and Rea and I am sure that is not in the UK alone!

[neninja]

That article misses one important point - outside road racing like the TT and NW200, there are probably fewer than 10 riders across the UK series who are actually paid to race. Most have to rely on personal sponsorship and have to fund their racing themselves even when riding for high profile teams so BSB is not the lazy option.

Much of the recent failure of British riders to secure good rides in MotoGP is the domestic racing scene is so focussed on 4 stroke racing.

The best way to get a good ride in MotoGP is still to progress from domestic 2 stroke series into 125 and then 250.

In the UK, many riders go from racing in 125's at club level and then progress straight to Supersport or one make series like the R6 Cup. They then end up racing 4 stroke Supersport and Superstock bikes by default and so this pretty much removes the pathway to GP's. Bradley Smith is one of the few to buck this trend and looks to have a bright future.

The GP paddock is very insular and pays little attention to race series outside it's own walls so you need to be there racing in 125 or 250 for anyone to notice you unless you are lucky enough to have the right passport and have the sponsors to buy your ride.

I agree that there are a few bright young things like Rea and Camier but our young riders do seem to lack the drive of the Aussies particularily. There seems to be a constant stream of talented Australian riders who are prepared to make sacrifices and travel half way round the world to develop their careers - Casey Stoner, Billy McConnell, Brendan Roberts

[NinjaMaster]

I think the thinking that a racer can't get to MotoGP through WSB is incorrect. The reason there have been so few picked up is because most of the top guys in the series are old. Once Bayliss, Haga, Corser, Biaggi, etc. retire in the next few years, hopefully we will see an influx of young blokes take over to lead the series foward and not cashed-up MotoGP rejects buying the top rides and spoiling the series credibility. If the rider is good enough, I don't see that it would matter if they were 250 or WSB champ as to their success or opportunity in MotoGP, just like Hayden, Hopkins and Vermeulen were able to skip the 250 process. Remember, the likes of Lawson, Gardner, Rainey, Schwantz and Doohan jumped on 500's that were far more removed from the superbikes they had been racing than the current MotoGP bikes are from todays superbikes. The riders talent will ultimately shine through.

[tha_jackal]

I think the thinking that a racer can't get to MotoGP through WSB is incorrect. The reason there have been so few picked up is because most of the top guys in the series are old. Once Bayliss, Haga, Corser, Biaggi, etc. retire in the next few years, hopefully we will see an influx of young blokes take over to lead the series foward and not cashed-up MotoGP rejects buying the top rides and spoiling the series credibility. If the rider is good enough, I don't see that it would matter if they were 250 or WSB champ as to their success or opportunity in MotoGP, just like Hayden, Hopkins and Vermeulen were able to skip the 250 process. Remember, the likes of Lawson, Gardner, Rainey, Schwantz and Doohan jumped on 500's that were far more removed from the superbikes they had been racing than the current MotoGP bikes are from todays superbikes. The riders talent will ultimately shine through.

SSSpot on! :D

[Mach24]

I think the thinking that a racer can't get to MotoGP through WSB is incorrect. The reason there have been so few picked up is because most of the top guys in the series are old. Once Bayliss, Haga, Corser, Biaggi, etc. retire in the next few years, hopefully we will see an influx of young blokes take over to lead the series foward and not cashed-up MotoGP rejects buying the top rides and spoiling the series credibility. If the rider is good enough, I don't see that it would matter if they were 250 or WSB champ as to their success or opportunity in MotoGP, just like Hayden, Hopkins and Vermeulen were able to skip the 250 process. Remember, the likes of Lawson, Gardner, Rainey, Schwantz and Doohan jumped on 500's that were far more removed from the superbikes they had been racing than the current MotoGP bikes are from todays superbikes. The riders talent will ultimately shine through.

I support this theory completely, however Dorna(Spain) will prefer promotion of riders from within, not sourcing from the Flamini(Italy) championship.

[NinjaMaster]

I've never been good at reading politics so I'm going to assume the manufacturers will pick the best riders who will win them races. The rest of the seats will be taken by cashed up 250 riders.

[Mach24]

I've never been good at reading politics so I'm going to assume the manufacturers will pick the best riders who will win them races. The rest of the seats will be taken by cashed up 250 riders.

I could name half the entrant list who are there for the wrong reasons. But I won't coz it really is not intended to be that kind of thread.

[AndyRAC]

I could name half the entrant list who are there for the wrong reasons. But I won't coz it really is not intended to be that kind of thread.

No, name them, we all know who they are, I think!
Back to the thread I still feel there is more of a SBK culture in Britain then Moto GP, that's why mosy British riders aim for WSBK.I maybe wrong though. Personally I prefer Moto GP

[Silver]

I've never been good at reading politics so I'm going to assume the manufacturers will pick the best riders who will win them races. The rest of the seats will be taken by cashed up 250 riders.

Later on in the article that I quoted further up the page, there is this quote:

Now Ekerold wants to expand to a two-rider World Supersport team in 2008. But he warns: "If the money comes from Spain or Italy, I'll look for riders from those countries."

As has been mentioned, there are more than one or two riders that have benefitted for better rides due to their nationality...

[Mach24]

No, name them, we all know who they are, I think!
Back to the thread I still feel there is more of a SBK culture in Britain then Moto GP, that's why mosy British riders aim for WSBK.I maybe wrong though. Personally I prefer Moto GP

I think the SBK support you speak of is true of UK, USA and Australia. I can not speak of other countries as I would be speculating much more than I am now.

To reach the pinnacle in circuit racing in the aforementioned countries you go to Superbike. GP classes are the poor cousin.

However in Spain (can I be bold and suggest Europe?) National GP classes are strong.

Edit: Yeah we all know who is there for the 'wrong' reason's, however there could be some passionate discussion on a few names!

[The Phantom]

Hayden, Hopkins and Vermeulen were able to skip the 250 process

Not Hopkins - he did a 250 apprenticeship in the US before going to race for the last full year of 500s in 2002.


To reach the pinnacle in circuit racing in the aforementioned countries you go to Superbike. GP classes are the poor cousin.

However in Spain (can I be bold and suggest Europe?) National GP classes are strong.

I think this is the crux of the problem - GP on the world stage is huge (because of history, pride etc.) but at a domestic level it's slipped away since the seventies. The bikes are small, noisy, smelly, high maintenance machines that are fairly irrelevant to most riders, who are brought up on a diet of bigbore 4-strokes.

So although there's a lot of depth in Brit domestic racing, there isn't enough love for actual GP-class machinery to see a ladder to MotoGP. Which is why WSB/WSS have remained relevant, despite the ongoing clash with MotoGP for tv and sponsor attention.

And never take anything that the British press writes about its own sportsmen seriously : )

[patnicholls]

This is a very good thread Mark, nice one :) I've been pondering it for a while.

As with everything, it's a complicated issue.

The point Silver makes about the Ekerold team is a very valid one - last year they were an immaculately turned out British Supersport team running Cal Crutchlow (who went on to be 2006 BSS champ) and Leon Camier (who was 2005 champ), with plenty of sponsors on the bikes. Now they're a one-rider team with a plain white bike - the sponsors don't want to come onto the world stage as they can promote best for their needs at home. And we all know that money talks in motorsport.

Certainly over in GPs, we suffer somewhat from the same problem as the Aussies - if no-one's backing our riders with money, teams will go for Spaniards, Italians, etc who may have money. And let's not forget that those riders have pedigree in their own national championships, of which Spain is one of the top ones. And common sense says that if there's a language barrier in a team, it can cause problems - look at how Neil Hodgson struggled against Ruben Xaus at D'Antin Ducati after soundly beating him in WSB the year before.

Some of the perceived negativity in Brit press about a lack of GP riders is down to hype and extremism - which Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button are currently experiencing opposite ends of over in F1. It is true that there's only a small number of Brits in the lower classes, but again that's down to the chances afforded to them as with many nations. Look at Eugene Laverty in the 250s this year - he was a title contender in British Supersport last year, ahead of Tom Sykes and Leon Camier although injury put paid to his chances of challenging Cal Crutchlow in the end. He got what looked like a dream ride with LCR, but it's not been as expected by any means (the bike is totally private, rather than the full factory effort like when LCR ran Stoner's Aprilia) and I suspect at the end of it he'll be back to Britain for career-saving measures.

There's plenty of riders who want to be in GPs on the Brit scene (check out rider websites or pick up the info cards at an autograph session - most do list their ambition as 'MotoGP champion'), but unless you're going to get a really top-line 125/250 GP ride then staying in Britain or going for WSB/WSS is your best option. And Dorna has taken a piece of the British Championship pie - they're looking for talent for GPs there for sure.

[axxexs]

just like Hayden, Hopkins and Vermeulen were able to skip the 250 process

Hayden did some race with a Yamaha TZ250 what I understand. It was at the time he did run 125GP bikes.

Hopkins did run some race on a aprilia RS250 production bike.

Vermeulen did 2 seasons with 250 on a Yamaha TZ250. He was 8:th in the Asian Championship.

Pics on Nicky Hayden on a Honda RS125R and Vermeulen on a TZ250 is here http://www.chrisvermeulen.com/imagedetail.aspx?src=http://www.chrisvermeulen.com/_photopages/306/Early-Days_0019.jpg&name=Early-Days_0019.jpg.

[ozrevhead]

Here's an interesting extract from an article on crash.net:

The only Brit in the Supersport class [at Silverstone] was Craig Jones, the 22-year-old who is backed by Gary Ekerold's Revè Ekerold Honda Racing team. Ekerold is a South African - the son of the 1980 350cc world champion Jon Ekerold - and has a pretty good fix on why Britain doesn't produce a stream of world class riders.

"BSB [the British Superbike Championship] is just too good," he said at Silverstone. "It's simply too strong. It's too easy for British riders to race in England.

"When an Australian rider comes to Europe he's travelled 10,000 miles and there's nothing for him to go back to. The same applies to a South African like me: I've come here to be world champion and I'm going to make sure that that happens."

In Ekerold's case, he means a world champion as a team owner. Last year he won the British Supersport title with Cal Crutchlow as his rider, and used that as a springboard to launch into World Supersport. But problems arose.

"It isn't just the riders, it's the corporates, too," Ekerold said. "Why would British companies get into world championship racing when they can get everything they need from the British series? I lost Nokia, Northpoint [a powder coating company] and Jewson [builders' merchants] as sponsors when I moved to World Supersport.

"We had one of the best funded teams in Britain. Now we're struggling for funding, and it's showing in our results."
Similar debate on the other forum

Except one bright claims we getting the better treatment then more talented British riders - ugh!

I think its a mental/lack of application thing rather than talent wise - like it has been said before Aussie Rides have to come half way around the world with nothing to fall back on...We have to and are willing to work harder and cant rely on talent alone!

Do you realise how many time Westy could of said 'this is too much of a head f----' and gone home...but no he didnt

I also think there is an 'I wont go to MotoGP unless its for a top team' attitude. LRC Honda wasnt the quickest bike going around was it and it didnt do Casey any harm!