WRC mainclass from 2027

[skarderud]

We know new rules come from 2027, so, better to start a new topic than keep up with the old one i think.
This tread is for dreamers and fans, not people that think we actually can make an impact on FIA:)

My guess:

Safetycell
Free engine ( with bop)
Less aero
Opening for teams with support from a manufacturer, but not a official manufacturer.

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[flat_right]

About the last one "Opening for teams with support from a manufacturer, but not a official manufacturer." - isn't this OK already now? I mean M-sport is not an official manufacturer. Or what did you mean?

[skarderud]

About the last one "Opening for teams with support from a manufacturer, but not a official manufacturer." - isn't this OK already now? I mean M-sport is not an official manufacturer. Or what did you mean?I think M-sport is official for Ford, i was more thinking of a team like prodrive build cars for a semi-official like a importer with support from the manufacturer. This can be easier for a manufacturer to support, as they are not interested in motorsport because it will not look good when they just have electric cars.
The economics is a other side of this ofcourse, i see support from monster, redbull or others will be more common.

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[saco0o]

- Spec FIA Roll Cage
- Get 2 or 3 brands to make a 'spec' engine like they do in BTCC and Indycars
- Put the "Bubble" with the manufacturer shape on top of that.
Rally1

[becher]

- Spec FIA Roll Cage
- Get 2 or 3 brands to make a 'spec' engine like they do in BTCC and Indycars
- Put the "Bubble" with the manufacturer shape on top of that.
Rally1

A spec series then?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

How do they spec a chassis / safety cell when there is a free choice of motor and fuel source which could all require different placements in the car ?

[Andre Oliveira]

Ford wants to commit to WRC future but 2027 rules must be "right for everybody"

Blue oval boss outlines his thoughts of the direction the World Rally Championship should take with its 2027 technical rules

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/ford-wants-to-commit-to-wrc-future-but-2027-rules-must-be-right-for-everybody/10635024/

[skarderud]

Good point to alove both manufacturers and tuners to build cars.

But, "be right for everybody", that is not possible.

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[macebig]

So, Rushbrook pretty much asks for an LMH/LMDh type of regulation.

[AndyRAC]

Good point to alove both manufacturers and tuners to build cars.

But, "be right for everybody", that is not possible.



It actually is; look at WEC and W2RC (Dakar)......

And for that reason the WRC won't do it; as they'll want just one solution, as is the status quo.

[becher]

It actually is; look at WEC and W2RC (Dakar)......

And for that reason the WRC won't do it; as they'll want just one solution, as is the status quo.

Well so far it was also very difficult to open the regulations as the teams/manufacturers would have wound up with a small turbocharged 4WD car, with as long a wheelbase as you can fit. Realistically no one would have chosen a N/A V6 for example.

The topic only got interesting very recently with different propulsion concepts on the minds of the people paying the bills. LMH/LMDh probably gave the manufacturers an idea but even there the manufacturers mostly went for turbochargees V6/V8 engines of roughly 3 to 4 litres displacement.

[saco0o]

but Ford also wanted these hybrid regulations and they are not actually there. they are kinda supplying Msport, but thats it, as far as I understand. is that right? same for the other classes. its weird, wrc keeps having these articles with bosses, teams, brands repeating "ohh 2027 gotta be right" but what does that mean? nobody knows what to do, what to suggest, its so weird, dont you think? are they really lost on "what car should we run" to the point where theres not a single direct suggestion out there?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

As it turned out with Main Class in 2025 thread, none of us knows what could or will happen.

All the people deciding the Regs are doing so behind closed doors with multiple discussions going on.

Best just wait and see than endlessly speculating in the dark.

[WRCStan]

As it turned out with Main Class in 2025 thread, none of us knows what could or will happen.

All the people deciding the Regs are doing so behind closed doors with multiple discussions going on.

Best just wait and see than endlessly speculating in the dark.

What happened in the 2025 thread was frustration at being ignored. However there is nothing wrong with questioning why any particular route could or could not happen in the future, we've all got an interest else we wouldn't be here. Or, shut the entire forum down as there's no point discussing the past either because nobody can influence that for sure. It's a forum not a newsfeed.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What happened in the 2025 thread was frustration at being ignored. However there is nothing wrong with questioning why any particular route could or could not happen in the future, we've all got an interest else we wouldn't be here. Or, shut the entire forum down as there's no point discussing the past either because nobody can influence that for sure. It's a forum not a newsfeed.

But as fans we've even less idea on the 2027 Regs than we had for the 2025. Its unquestionably the most difficult set of Regs that have ever been chosen in the history of rallying given the position of the car market re future fuels and propulsion systems.

Until there are proposals expressed by those involved its pointless us just guessing.

[WRCStan]

But as fans we've even less idea on the 2027 Regs than we had for the 2025. Its unquestionably the most difficult set of Regs that have ever been chosen in the history of rallying given the position of the car market re future fuels and propulsion systems.

Until there are proposals expressed by those involved its pointless us just guessing.

It isn't a gamble about being correct, would love to hear one users view of why another's is plausible, impossible, likely or improbable.

There's always an option to ignore the posts or thread.

[Dimitris]

One of the central problems in the WRC is that the current Rally1 cars are far too expensive. A change is hoped for when the new rules are drafted.

“Fortunately, the FIA has understood that the prices of Rally1 cars are now far too high. They need to come down, and I understand that the FIA plans to reduce the cost and speed of Rally1 cars,” Latvala revealed.

According to Latvala, the WRC is set to take a step back regarding both the cost and the speed of the cars.

“I understand that the FIA is aiming for a speed level that WRC cars had between 2011 and 2016,” Latvala stated.

https://rallyjournal.com/jari-matti-latvalas-intriguing-revelation-could-this-solve-the-wrcs-big-problem/

[WRCStan]

What's the revelation?

[saco0o]

they gotta be cheaper than the 2017 cars. they wont.

[trykmann]

“I understand that the FIA is aiming for a speed level that WRC cars had between 2011 and 2016,” Latvala stated.

https://rallyjournal.com/jari-matti-latvalas-intriguing-revelation-could-this-solve-the-wrcs-big-problem/

We all are interested to see how it's going to play out. We already have cars with that speed level, they are called Rally2.

[deephouse]

And when the world knows that other major series have more expensive cars, why do they still bring that up and flag it like it's the only problem? The regs are too closed for many. Open them up a little, maybe like more different segments of cars, engines, or power units...

[becher]

And when the world knows that other major series have more expensive cars, why do they still bring that up and flag it like it's the only problem? The regs are too closed for many. Open them up a little, maybe like more different segments of cars, engines, or power units...
Different segments of cars is and was always possible, now it is even possible without a serious penalty. There is a reason everybody went for the B segment when the rules first allowed it properly.

But otherwise I agree, the unit cost of a car is not preventing manufacturer involvement.

[deephouse]

The segment is a big problem and needs to be adjusted because, for some stupid reason, manufacturers are defuncting small and best-selling cars and they are making more and more SUVs. And then potential brands who show interest in series can't compete because they don't make that kind of car. I target Subaru here and now Hyundai with their whining about i20 retirement. Even if regs would have some segment or unit power or even engine allowed and nobody cares and all goes for the same it could be scraped in the next cycle. I mean whoever wants could enter with their stupid EVs, hybrid or normal ICE, or SUV, or whatever is allowed and bring marketing aspect to them. Then no one will whine about high costs, potentially there could be more interest in competing at the top level, more seats, new people, more competition, and maybe more interest (again) at the local level...

[WRCStan]

The segment is a big problem and needs to be adjusted

Can you copy and paste the segment rules please, because the post before you said there's no such rules.

[saco0o]

is EU's resolution banning the production and selling of petrol cars in 2035 still in place? cuz last time i saw, not even hybrids would be allowed. and some recent coments on manufacturers talking again about how "small cars" would be better for EVs.
its confusing and difficult to talk about that stuff. small electric hatches would be the way to go right now, even with SUVs being sold in the market. a shift may happen, so it would be interesting to be one step ahead of that. but the infraestructure is not there and ev racing is not fun. what a bad crossroads eh? hybrids are expensive for competition. these 100mi bucks hyundai and Toyota have in wrc are MUCH bigger than Porsche or Jaguar in Formula E, that have constant financial support from governaments "because greenwashing is good PR". wrc looks to be on a bad position when it comes to define what they will run in the next years, eh? i wonder what wtcc* foruns are talking about THEIR future too. tcr scandinavia is racing evs only. some small cupras and vws look good. theres bmw and teslas too. but should wrc start to think about evs to "be ahead of what happens in the streets"? is this really important? cuz it doesnt look so tbh, but "PR" is everything for these companied.
haha idk what to think, clearly haha

[Andre Oliveira]

https://files.coverscdn.com/covers/266393/mid/0000.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Nobody knows the future, but full EV isnt going to be the way for many car manufacturers.

Hybrid and ICE with sustainable fuel (as we have now) seems the best bet for 2027> .

The WRC Managing Director and the boss of P1 Fuels interviewed:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2024/08/05/can-rallying-rebuild-glory-in-a-car-market-focused-on-sustainability/

[saco0o]

hmmm interesting. the best argument i read so far "on the internet" about why evs are not seeling like they thought they would is because most younger people dont have the money to buy a car or simply dont want to buy a car (ideology+uber+bikes?) and 'older generations' dont like evs, so they buy hybrid suvs because of the size of their 'family' and because its cheaper on fuel/mileage, since economics/inflation is kinda bad since the pandemic.

[mknight]

Price is the main reason. Everything else is just a consequence.

Here in Norway the % of EV sales is some 85% for the year so far. Mainly cause EVs are cheaper, though it mostly translates in people using the same amount of money as before but getting a "higher class" car. Still even if the sticker prices ends about the same the running cost is much lower.

Since there are many EVs the changing infrastructure expanded quite well and now there are no issues charging basically anywhere (faster charging speed of newer cars also helps).

Talking with my friends around Europe I totally get why it doesn't work elsewhere. Without artificial price factors high end EVs are about same price as high end petrol/diesel cars everywhere (use Audi SUV range for comparison), but the lack of charging infrastructure and the widespread ridiculous myths ("don't like EVs" as you put it) limit how many people buy those.
"Cheap" EVs are still much more expensive than cheap small petrol cars so not much reason to buy those and as you say young people don't have lots of capital.

If situation stays the same then EV sales will go up slowly in Europe. What could happen is that sales elsewhere (China) will lead to cheaper small EVs which then catch up in Europe. But then again now with the tariffs those will be expensive in Europe anyway so European manufacturers will be less pressed to come with cheap cars. So Europe ends with the lowest amount of EVs vs US and China (already the case for both) in the next 2 years anyway.

[mknight]

One small extra short term thing about the price.
With the "chip crisis" after COVID all manus upped their prices a lot (5-10k EUR) on 50k EUR cars and most are extremely slow in getting them down again if at all. Yet they all scream about how terrible it is going while keeping massive margins up until this summer. First now this policy catches up on them.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I wonder how much WRC actually brings to car Manufacturers now anyway, regardless of the technology used.

In the past rallying was a way to show how tough a Manufacturers cars were, or how reliable, or how exciting, or how sporting, or how innovative.

Nowadays the tough and reliable aspect is taken for granted. But how many people are interested in their car being exciting or sporty ? I guess its single percentage points of the market.

So it seems to be up to rallying to show innovation and that's a really tough one. What has it done since 4WD was proven with the Audi Quattro 40 years ago ?

[becher]

.

What has it done since 4WD was proven with the Audi Quattro 40 years ago ?

Lots, but hardly anything was relevant for road cars/the end consumer.

[typhoon]

I was recently reading about the Fiat 500, the EC version built in Mirafiori sold less than 5K and forced Stellantis to go back producing the ICE and add the Hybrid one, in order to save their sales. Considering it's a "city car" and the good amount of charging infrastructures in the main Italian cities, that's a signal that customers in Italy (and probably in Europe) are not yet ready for an EV world.

This is a clear response from the market and I'm glad that WRC Promoter is looking beyond saying that they might be continuing with sustainable fuels and Hybrids for the new regulations. Also, we need to consider that in some continents nobody is ready to buy EV. Look at South/Central America or Africa or even India. Who's gonna buy EVs there?

[saco0o]

but if EU will demand all new cars to be ev by 2035, when should wrc move into that direction? or better... will it? ever?
hearing solid state bateries are on the horizon for cars with double the capacity, fast charge improvements (like, 8 to 10 min to go from 15% to 80%, which they call the optimal status)

[typhoon]

but if EU will demand all new cars to be ev by 2035, when should wrc move into that direction? or better... will it? ever?
hearing solid state bateries are on the horizon for cars with double the capacity, fast charge improvements (like, 8 to 10 min to go from 15% to 80%, which they call the optimal status)

It's more or less like the targets and demands of the Paris climate agreement, we already surpassed 1.5° and anyone have spoken. Money over climate.

Basically the EU rules the automotive industry according to the pressure received by the car manufacturers lobbies (look at where they're offices are located in Bruxelles...) and considering that the manufacturers won't be going 100% EV by then, rules adjustments will come before 2035. No worries about that.

[AndyRAC]

Lots, but hardly anything was relevant for road cars/the end consumer.

Exactly! And there is the issue; it's just not road relevant, and hasn't been for 40 odd years. Other series are/ have been........

[Morte66]

I wonder if the EU requires new cars to be EV by 2035, and that sticks and rally cars are built new in 2035, and they travel on public roads for liaison... Does this mean that's a hard deadline for EV rally cars?

[typhoon]

I wonder if the EU requires new cars to be EV by 2035, and that sticks and rally cars are built new in 2035, and they travel on public roads for liaison... Does this mean that's a hard deadline for EV rally cars?

We're talking about the third homologation cycle from now on, but anyway I guess there would be an exception agreed with the local authorities to let those cars go through the liaison.

[mknight]

I was recently reading about the Fiat 500, the EC version built in Mirafiori sold less than 5K and forced Stellantis to go back producing the ICE and add the Hybrid one, in order to save their sales. Considering it's a "city car" and the good amount of charging infrastructures in the main Italian cities, that's a signal that customers in Italy (and probably in Europe) are not yet ready for an EV world.


Fiat 500 is a perfect example of what I wrote:
- price decides vs petrol
- small EVs are too expensive compared with bigger EVs


If you want cheap small car just about anything petrol is cheaper. If you want EV (or EVs get directly or indirectly subsidized) you can get Tesla 3 or MG4 which both are much bigger for basically same money.

Nothing to do with "not being ready" for EVs.

Even here with 80%+ electric car sales there are close to zero new 500s on the road, but actually quite many of the previous US-only EV version from unofficial imports.

[saco0o]

well, in the end the 2027 rules are probably going to be something like "the puma" (where the actual road car is bigger/suv, but they can downsize the 'looks' for it to fit around the safety cell / rollcage specs) with a little bit of less aero and more 'electric power' coming from the hybrids, right? so eh... all this talk here is always interesting and we all love it, but eh...
i'd be in shock if the 2027 rules are not that suggestion

[Kenneth]

If, if... The EU won't require all new cars to be EVs. It's quite clear that it's not happening and sustainable fuel or ICE hydrogen will be option too.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Exactly! And there is the issue; it's just not road relevant, and hasn't been for 40 odd years. Other series are/ have been........

In fact WRC / rallying in general have been runn ing BEHIND the latest tech for years. Hybrid is a perfect example... Toyota had this 25 years ago !!

Clutchless / equential gear changing is about the last thing I can think of that was rally-pioneered before appearing on road cars.

And the other issue is people mainly prefer tech for inside the car like infotainment, not for driving pleasure.

[mknight]

Yes since 2000 rally has always been behind the "trend".

First it was running 2L turbo when no mainstream petrol cars had turbo.
Then it added 2L atmo (S2000) just as downsizing trend with 1.6l turbos started.

When WRC catched up to downsizing mainstream started turning to hybrids. (see VW and Citroen comments in 2018-2020)

Now that hybrids came the trend was to EVs already.

Hard to say if there is a new "trend" yet, but if there is rallying will be late again.

Imo the main reason is that the manus that are already in the championship are always favored over potential new entries. The existing teams always want to keep as much as possible from before to keep their advantage over new arrivals.

[WRCStan]

Exactly! And there is the issue; it's just not road relevant, and hasn't been for 40 odd years. Other series are/ have been........

Which such series?

Motorsport has moved on from being consumer production tech relevant, just so long as the branding is right.

[steve.mandzij]

Technologically, the WRC has a really big problem. The obsessive focus on reducing costs has hit a dead end; there's nothing left to trim. At the same time, just because Rally1 are quick, we're meant to believe that these 5-speed, hybrid converted aero cars with barely any testing and development time during the year are the pinnacle of rallying.

The jump to 2017 regulations was a big success in the short term because suddenly the tech opened up again, the cars became more sophisticated and that created value. Promoter should focus on that: creating value for the series, not bring costs down to a level matching the series' current status.

[macebig]

Cars are 3x more expensive than the WRC 2.0L and probably 6x or 7x more than the Group A era. What part of that is "reducing costs"?

[Mirek]

Cars are 3x more expensive than the WRC 2.0L and probably 6x or 7x more than the Group A era. What part of that is "reducing costs"?

Except they are not.

[deephouse]

So, the F1 car costs 15mio, the Hypercar 2mio, and the MotoGP bike the same, and the whole world is bothered that those WRC cars are too expensive (1mio) while they're practically the cheapest on the world level. And still getting the most beating out of all.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So, the F1 car costs 15mio, the Hypercar 2mio, and the MotoGP bike the same, and the whole world is bothered that those WRC cars are too expensive (1mio) while they're practically the cheapest on the world level. And still getting the most beating out of all.

But WRC has the fewest entries and only 2.5 Manufacturer Teams.

If costs were allowed to go even higher new Manufacturers would be put off and M-Sport would be out and the Series would be further diminished.

[Franky]

If there's no value in the championship, even 1 Euro is too much in business sense.

[macebig]

F1 and WEC were much more than that beforehand. Audi and Porsche had budgets of $150mil and in F1 Ferrari was about $300 mil in the mid 00s. Massive cost cuts since.

[Mirek]

But WRC has the fewest entries and only 2.5 Manufacturer Teams.

If costs were allowed to go even higher new Manufacturers would be put off and M-Sport would be out and the Series would be further diminished.

This.


If there's no value in the championship, even 1 Euro is too much in business sense.

Eddie, you don't get new customers by offering them a discount on an old product. Business with rich customers doesn't work that way and the manufacturers are super rich ones.


Anyway when Václav Pech bought a Focus WRC 01 its cost was about 700 thousand GBP if I remember right. The total inflation of GBP between 2001 and 2024 is 82%. That means that the sum equals to todays 1,274 million GBP or 1,49 million Euro. Moreover for him as Czech at that time the GBP was equal to 58,9 Czech crowns while today it is 29,4, i.e. exactly half!

More recent example. The R5/Rally2 prices were frozen in 2015. The Euro inflation between 2015 and today is 28%. That means that the Rally2 cars today are actually 22% cheaper than they were in 2015.


No, the cars are not multiple times more expensive than they were in the past.

[macebig]

Buying the car isn't the only cost. Running costs count also. You could literally swap a gearbox, an engine from a wrecked or road car into a Group A. Body parts were dirt cheap and very easy to find. Nowadays, body is all carbon and costs a fortune to repair. And better not go into engines or gearboxes.

[Mirek]

Buying the car isn't the only cost. Running costs count also. You could literally swap a gearbox, an engine from a wrecked or road car into a Group A. Body parts were dirt cheap and very easy to find. Nowadays, body is all carbon and costs a fortune to repair. And better not go into engines or gearboxes.

The claim was that today's cars are 3x more expensive than older WRC and 6x more than Gr.A which is simply nonsense.

Anyway Gr.A is nothing but a history. It's simply impossible today because the world and the car industry has changed. There is no point bringing it over and over again into the discussion about the future of our sport.

[WRCStan]

Anyway Gr.A is nothing but a history. It's simply impossible today because the world and the car industry has changed. There is no point bringing it over and over again into the discussion about the future of our sport.

DAVID EVANS PONDERS WHETHER GROUP B SHOULD ACT AS INSPIRATION FOR WRC'S 2027 REGULATIONS

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/is-reverse-engineering-the-key-to-the-next-wrc-generation/

[Mirek]

DAVID EVANS PONDERS WHETHER GROUP B SHOULD ACT AS INSPIRATION FOR WRC'S 2027 REGULATIONS

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/is-reverse-engineering-the-key-to-the-next-wrc-generation/

That text is of really bad quality :(

[saco0o]

skoda motorsport maybe not so random projetc?
https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=1471248274276620
...just sharing

[Eli]

skoda motorsport maybe not so random projetc?
https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=1471248274276620
...just sharing

Still needs to be changed from race to rally and if they do return, other than that I do hope it’s with a smaller model or at least one that doesn’t have that ugly ‘coupe’ sloping roof line look.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hydrogen-powered Hyundai rally car now being driven by Hayden Paddon in NZ...

https://www.facebook.com/HyundaiNZ/videos/828218992846700/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

[saco0o]

hydrogen electric from hyundai, ice hydrogen from toyota. its interesting if you think about tech development! really cool.

tho wrc needs to solve one thing:
if they choose these expensive solutions, (hybrids, evs, hydrogen) they need at least 5 manufaturers involved, because we know smaller teams and privateers will never have that kind of money. so they need more factory teams... OR we are going to have just 6 full time cars for years and years (IF none of the current treams quit) :/

[deephouse]

They could open and have it all, and then all manufacturers have conditions to get involved. You know when thing is restricted, there is always one, which can't get involved, because they don't sell that shit, the WRC offer.

[mknight]

It is hilarious when people here argue about how much of a fire hazard batteries in EVs are and then suggest using pressurized hydrogen instead.

[saco0o]

It is hilarious when people here argue about how much of a fire hazard batteries in EVs are and then suggest using pressurized hydrogen instead.

hehe true, tho at the same time, 99,9999% of both motorsport and 'road' incidents with fire in the whole history of "cars" were caused because of petrol, so...

[mknight]

To me it seems that at WRC level most fires are caused by hot exhaust parts getting into contact with either vegetation or other parts of the car. So it is petrol, but indirectly.

There is a recent history of fires caused by fuel tank issue with Polo R5 and Fabia R5, but that issue seems more like an exception.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They could open and have it all, and then all manufacturers have conditions to get involved. You know when thing is restricted, there is always one, which can't get involved, because they don't sell that shit, the WRC offer.

But like VHS vs Betamax, someone is going to lose and do so in a very public way.

Maybe WRC could use Rally2 cars, factory and private teams, for a few years, until the car industry decides what fuel is really going to be the future.

[Mirek]

Maybe WRC could use Rally2 cars, factory and private teams, for a few years, until the car industry decides what fuel is really going to be the future.

Why again? Just why?

This idea is as dead as the Monty Python parrot.

[Mirek]

hehe true, tho at the same time, 99,9999% of both motorsport and 'road' incidents with fire in the whole history of "cars" were caused because of petrol, so...

Except it's not true. Hydrogen is pretty safe. With hydrogen in open spaces you vitrually can't ever get a vapor explosion or self ignition. The reason is that unlike gasoline, methan etc. it is far ligher than air and therefopre never concentrates in an open space. When it's leaking it just dissipates in the air and nothing happens. It also requires far richer (and virtually impossible in open space) concentration for self ignition than gasoline vapors. Plus unlike gasoline or battries it's not toxic.

Of course you can't shoot the pressurized tank but you can't do that with petrol tank or a battery either.

[WRCStan]

Why again? Just why?

This idea is as dead as the Monty Python parrot.

It's not dead, no manufacturers are coming, end of. The technical standards discussion is moot. Manufacturers want out, now the Promoter wants out. If the FIA end up promoting their own series again, this is what they'll do, as it's what they proposed earlier this year when they were unwittingly acting like the Turkey voting for Christmas.

Sure with a healthy championship I will say the same, it certainly isn't a target, but the championship is very, very sick.

Only thing I will say to Eddie is that the car industry isn't coming back, ever.

[saco0o]

Maybe WRC could use Rally2 cars, factory and private teams, for a few years.

yes

[mknight]

Except it's not true. Hydrogen is pretty safe. With hydrogen in open spaces you vitrually can't ever get a vapor explosion or self ignition. The reason is that unlike gasoline, methan etc. it is far ligher than air and therefopre never concentrates in an open space. When it's leaking it just dissipates in the air and nothing happens. It also requires far richer (and virtually impossible in open space) concentration for self ignition than gasoline vapors. Plus unlike gasoline or battries it's not toxic.

Of course you can't shoot the pressurized tank but you can't do that with petrol tank or a battery either.

Right then I guess this explosion never happened:

https://www.fleeteurope.com/fr/new-energies/europe/features/norwegian-hydrogen-station-explosion-raises-safety-questions

(Link is first search hit, but it was everywhere in the news).

Afterwards they found out it was due to wrongly installed valve that leaked. (So no shooting of pressurized tank). In either case after this the number of hydrogen fylling stations around Oslo went from like 6 to 1 and hydrogen car sales dropped to close to zero, while battery car sales are now at 94% of all new cars.

[EstWRC]

Here we go again with the discussion that’s been here for thousand times…

[saco0o]

Except it's not true. Hydrogen is pretty safe. With hydrogen in open spaces you vitrually can't ever get a vapor explosion or self ignition. The reason is that unlike gasoline, methan etc. it is far ligher than air and therefopre never concentrates in an open space. When it's leaking it just dissipates in the air and nothing happens. It also requires far richer (and virtually impossible in open space) concentration for self ignition than gasoline vapors. Plus unlike gasoline or battries it's not toxic.

Of course you can't shoot the pressurized tank but you can't do that with petrol tank or a battery either.

ah, wait. i was talking more about the "against ev" people talking about cars getting on fire when literally 99% of cars (road or motorsport) ending up in fire are all petrol cars. EVs are relatively a new thing.
and about Hydrogen, they will not be using Hydrogen in open space so its flamable like a fuel tank or the components of a battery, as far as I understand

[mknight]

Here we go again with the discussion that’s been here for thousand times…

I think Mirek's arguments get more hilarous with every iteration.

Now we found out that all those Rockets cannot work. As Mark Watney puts it "nothing bad ever happened when mixing hydrogen with oxygen".

[WRCStan]

I think Mirek's arguments get more hilarous with every iteration.

Now we found out that all those Rockets cannot work. As Mark Watney puts it "nothing bad ever happened when mixing hydrogen with oxygen".

But volatile or not, you still need to ignite it, right? The reports of investigations into that Norway explosion do not explain what that ignition was. One article says (https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/norway/article/norway-hydrogen-explosion-mystery-solved) "This [incorrectly installed] valve leaked hydrogen which caught fire when it came into contact with the air."

[Steve Boyd]

Hydrogen-powered Hyundai rally car now being driven by Hayden Paddon in NZ...

https://www.facebook.com/HyundaiNZ/videos/828218992846700/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6vIf you study the video closely, you'll see that the car isn't powered directly by hydrogen - it's a conventional battery electric vehicle. The hydrogen fuel cell is used in the re-charging station that provides the power to re-charge the car battery.




Except it's not true. Hydrogen is pretty safe. With hydrogen in open spaces you vitrually can't ever get a vapor explosion or self ignition. The reason is that unlike gasoline, methan etc. it is far ligher than air and therefopre never concentrates in an open space. When it's leaking it just dissipates in the air and nothing happens. It also requires far richer (and virtually impossible in open space) concentration for self ignition than gasoline vapors. Plus unlike gasoline or battries it's not toxic.

Of course you can't shoot the pressurized tank but you can't do that with petrol tank or a battery either.The flammability range for a mixture of hydrogen in air is 4% to 75% by volume - one of the largest ranges of any flammable mixture.
Details of how you ensure that the risk of a explosion from a release is minimised is covered in EN IEC 60079-10 Classification of areas - Explosive gas atmospheres.




But volatile or not, you still need to ignite it, right? The reports of investigations into that Norway explosion do not explain what that ignition was. One article says (https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/norway/article/norway-hydrogen-explosion-mystery-solved) "This [incorrectly installed] valve leaked hydrogen which caught fire when it came into contact with the air."If there's a hydrogen leak there will be a volume where the mixture of hydrogen and air is within the flammable range. If that volume coincides with a source of ignition then there will be an explosion. Note that hydrogen/air mixtures have one of the lowest ignition energies of any flammable mixture - 0.02 mJ. A hot surface or a spark with more energy than this could ignite the mixture. This is why the design rules for electical equipment for use with hydrogen are the most stringent of any of the equipment groups. A substantial leak from an incorrectly installed valve could well cause a large cloud that came in contact with a light switch, electric motor, incadescent lamp, mobile phone &c &c. The Piper Alpha oil rig disaster was caused by a "plumbing" error, so it isn't just hydrogen that's a problem.

[macebig]

Hyundai is pretty much out. Hopefully, that's the wake up call for all parties involved that Rally 1 cannot continue as is.Imo, FIA and RBMH should sit Ford, Citroen, Skoda, Toyota and whoever else is interested down and work something like a 2 year transition period with Rally 2s (2026-27) and a new ruleset from 2028 that brings privateers back.

[skarderud]

Its like when Gr.B was forbidden and Gr.A became the main class.
A much better championship in every way.

Sorry to say, but FIA/promoter has done a incredible hopeless effort.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[PLuto]

Its like when Gr.B was forbidden and Gr.A became the main class.
A much better championship in every way.

Sorry to say, but FIA/promoter has done a incredible hopeless effort.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

Sorry, but there is one big difference. When Gr.B was forbidden and Gr.A became the main class, there were manufacturers interested in joining the championship and fight for the titles. Currently nobody from Rally2 manufacturers is not interested to fight for the WRC title and they are always and everywhere promoting it as costumer programme. Nobody of them wants to be on the highest level and also I doubt there will be new car homologated in Rally2. So this way doesnt seems to be a future...

[saco0o]

i feel wrc is going the same way wtcc. the world championship with its more powerfull and expensive cars (compare to rally1) was not that interesting anymore and the tcr championships (compare to R5s) were doing super well, with good entries in national and international levels. once wtcc gave up and went tcr, you can see the hardcore fans complaining for a while but then it fades and they are all happy again now - in a way. of course the memory and the desire to come back to a more glorious era still lives in their minds, but it is what it is. touring car racing is just not a big thing anymore in this modern world the same way rallying is not a big thing anymore. (in the sense of manufacturers spending millions and crazy high audiences everywhere, open tv broadcast etc). and theres the f1 factor craving in the other motorsports championship. we all think "our favorite championship" could be big as f1 if we start doing what they did, but no. f1 is f1, period. nothing can get closer to that, thats a fact. anyway, i think we are there already (at the same 'wtcc' point). just an opinion, ok? im not saying IM RIGHT, its just my view.

[Mirek]

The flammability range for a mixture of hydrogen in air is 4% to 75% by volume - one of the largest ranges of any flammable mixture.
Details of how you ensure that the risk of a explosion from a release is minimised is covered in EN IEC 60079-10 Classification of areas - Explosive gas atmospheres.

Yes, but in the open area, let's say on a stage, you can't achieve such concentration without massive rupture of the tank with simultaneus ignition.

[WRCStan]

Its like when Gr.B was forbidden and Gr.A became the main class.
A much better championship in every way.

Sorry to say, but FIA/promoter has done a incredible hopeless effort.

What made A better than B?

But despite that, the championships then and now are incomparable.

[skarderud]

What made A better than B?

But despite that, the championships then and now are incomparable.Better competition, more competitive drivers and cars.
In Gr.B in could be 5 and 10 min between the places at finish, the cars was awesome, like todays Rally1, but Gr.A was much better if you like competition.

I'm old enough to remember Gr.B, but for me Gr.A has a much higher star in hindsight.

Times are changing, maybe a manufacturerbased championship is dead? Not just rally, all motorsports.
It ends up being like Formula, teams running cars with some support from a manufacturer, but they are not involved in a big manner.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[Fast Eddie WRC]

WRC1 would probably be dead as a Manufacturer-based Championship years ago, if it wasn't for one man... Akio Toyoda.

As boss of Toyota, and a massive rally fan, he single-handedly brought Toyota back into top level rallying. This was just in time as VW pulled out, and within a couple of years so did Citroen.

Toyoda has kept his firm in WRC and this has been crucial to keeping the Championship going in the last 8 years. Without his enthusiasm for the sport they wouldnt be here. With just Hyundai and M-Sport left it just wouldnt be viable.

Hopefully the FIA / Promoter listens carefully to what Toyoda-San says.on the best direction for the future of our sport at WRC level.

[Steve Boyd]

Yes, but in the open area, let's say on a stage, you can't achieve such concentration without massive rupture of the tank with simultaneus ignition.Right next to the leak there will certainly be more than 4% of hydrogen. The volume around the leak that contains more than 4% will depend on the rate of release and wind speed. There are equations in EN IEC 60079-10 that can be used to calculate the hazardous volume. If that volume extends to a source of ignition (a spark of more than 0.02mJ or a hot enough surface) there will be an ignition. A small leak into the open from a car wouldn't be a problem. A leak into the passenger compartment would be more dangerous. Switches or instruments could be an ignition source. A ruptured gas tank would almost certainly ignite.

In any case the Hyundai proposal is for hydrogen fuel cell powered re-charging stations (not hydrogen powered cars) so they'd be loacated in a re-fuelling area with appropriate precautions.

[EstWRC]

The wet dream of many here may come true

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-2027-crunch-talks-include-radical-rally2-overhaul/

[saco0o]

The wet dream of many here may come true

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-2027-crunch-talks-include-radical-rally2-overhaul/

fia will screw rally2 too, i can fell it already

[macebig]

Even £400k is too much for a sustainable championship. Half that at best.

[Eli]

Even £400k is too much for a sustainable championship. Half that at best.

What’s the cost cap for WEC? The price will always be more expensive once it’s outside the track, question is, do they get a return on their investment, atm the answer is no.

[deephouse]

And again those costs. Why would once a very popular sport need to be ''so cheap'' that you all think it would attract more of everything? Why don't then all manufacturers rather being involved in lower series, I don't see them in WRC2, WRC3, or JWRC, then in ERC, ARC, or even national championships (those national stickers are being there more or less just to fund some things)... BECAUSE it's the world championship. It needs to be the pinnacle of the sport and some stuff can be priced more. And brands will invest no matter the amount they want. As long as the exposure and showcase what they can do, win something, or the story. Why the hell do some brands in completely different series even compete if they don't score any points at all across the seasons? And I'm sure they spend freaking more than just a season in WRC. Why then you read that some bosses, engineers, staff members get incredible amounts and still being nothing special. The costs isn't all, it's more or less technology and the things they can sell to the world. Rather of focusing too much on this,it should focus more what could each brand show, can survive through tough events and of course battles.

Recent Hyundai rumors of them leaving keep something in my mind. Before they entered the WRC (again), they were a rather regular brand, nothing special. Now they are pretty much up there in the leaderboard of selling their products. I noticed they were present in many other events, football, movies/series,... And I think it helped them get worldwide exposure in investing so much and being part of WRC for so long to get where they are now. But keep wondering if they are making a big mistake of leaving... Right now they are focusing mostly on SUVs and EVs and we see that those are sinking the fastest. Hope they don't end up like Subaru, Mitsubishi, or even Lancia with nothing much to offer anymore.

Oh yeah. And those Rally2 cars. No new cars aren't being built... Recent one is Yaris and Fabia. Hyundai doesn't have an intention to support their challenger anymore because the car will be discontinued, Citroen's car is an older model of C3, and Fiesta is discontinued already. VW shut down motorsport department, so we know we won't see them rather sooner than later, Peugeot, well their car is so long now it probably will not be revived, Proton (I don't even count them, because was a small project and nothing much known about them). In a few years, we will only see Skoda and Toyota on the grid (and even that is, IF). So wh don't tweak it, so the brands would get a motivation to making new ones or at least making them further.

[saco0o]

you are missing the point, mate. wrc needs cheaper cars because right now we have SIX full time entries per event! (plus 2 'wild cards' from manufacturers). manufacturers are NOT INTERESTED in rallying because theres no proper return of investment, so we NEED privateers that are doing it because they love rallying. that should be simple. manufacturers are NOT interested, so should we keep a 6 car championship OR move to a cheaper thing to allow more entries and more passionate people and more stories to be around?
and sorry, but no, hyundai did not grew to be the 3rd biggest car brand on the planet because wrc gave them more exposure (or something like that), sorry. this is non-sense. i imagine hamilton winning 7 consecutive titles in f1 helped mercedes to grow a liiiiittle bit to the ('sporting') public eye. other than that, NAH, no way.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

fia will screw rally2 too, i can feel it already

Yep. Spaceframe chassis for private teams to clothe isnt what rallying is for. You need road car relevance and who is going to determine which road car the skin is based on ?

[saco0o]

Yep. Spaceframe chassis for private teams to clothe isnt what rallying is for. You need road car relevance and who is going to determine which road car the skin is based on ?

i think that even if they choose to keep road based cars with the general upgrades on the safety structure, engines, aero etc (just like nowadays), they will have to move into SUVs because this is where the market is heading anyway. i also have a weird feeling that they may come up with some sort of 'spec' car for this rally2 class, like having msport being the official builder of these generic cars that may or may not looks like a Puma. i see this SPEC-cification in rallycross and i started wondering how long until it reaches rally2. spec classes are normally cheaper, which is good, and teams will get to different adjustments, but...eh... idk

[AndyRAC]

i think that even if they choose to keep road based cars with the general upgrades on the safety structure, engines, aero etc (just like nowadays), they will have to move into SUVs because this is where the market is heading anyway.

Which market? Going down the SUV route would be suicide - No other major series use them. Time for revolution/ re-think, and use another type of road car........

Rallycross is dying a death, Extreme E is at death's door - and the WRC isn't doing much better. Off-road motorsport is in serious trouble - and needs another direction.

[WRCStan]

Which market? Going down the SUV route would be suicide - No other major series use them. Time for revolution/ re-think, and use another type of road car........

Rallycross is dying a death, Extreme E is at death's door - and the WRC isn't doing much better. Off-road motorsport is in serious trouble - and needs another direction.

You want to use road cars for what you call off-road motorsport?

[saco0o]

Which market? Going down the SUV route would be suicide - No other major series use them. Time for revolution/ re-think, and use another type of road car........

Rallycross is dying a death, Extreme E is at death's door - and the WRC isn't doing much better. Off-road motorsport is in serious trouble - and needs another direction.

but if rally2 dont become SUV (road based or space frame, whatever) the only option left is doing like OMSE is doing in rallycross with the FC2 car. we'd probably get msport doing it...? a cheap decent car, that doesnt look like any actual road model but if ford wants to glue a sticker with the broncos grill and front lights, they can. (like dallara is doing in extreme-e too). cant see other options for rally2 right now if theres changes coming to '27

[saco0o]

ps: i confess i dont HATE these omse rx cars called fc1-x.
https://youtu.be/auum3ND-gcE?feature=shared
i mean, rallying cannot go full ev yet probably, but the idea of "well, the top class teams gotta buy this machine and thats it. if u get KIA or LANCIA to pay for a different nose sticker, fine! if no, just run the spec car. but at the same time i find spec cars kinda "souless". rallying fans would not accept that

[RS]

Yep. Spaceframe chassis for private teams to clothe isnt what rallying is for.

But we need spaceframe cars to bring the manufacturers in, like Rally1 (lol)

Being more serious though, this time there is a real problem to solve. Maybe not quite yet but probably from 2030 onwards there will not be any more small petrol cars on which to base a rally car. Not only for Rally1&2 but for the more junior categories too. So we'll either have to go spaceframe, but that still leaves the question as to whether manufacturers are going to want to promote ICE vehicles in this way or go with proper cars but with an electric powertrain.

Possibly more than any other motorsport, rallying really does face an existential crisis and if we want it to continue we might have to accept a radical change about
What it is.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Seems hybrid not full EV is now the future for many manufacturers...

https://www.techradar.com/vehicle-tech/hybrid-electric-vehicles/car-giants-are-pulling-a-u-turn-on-their-ev-plans-heres-how-ford-hyundai-volvo-and-more-are-changing-course

[saco0o]

im starting to think i wouldnt mind seeing my favorite class R5s going to something like this in the new cycle of rules:
- a 'spec' car built by one company (or two companies sharing the same blueprints? i think btcc does that for engines with neil brown and toca?), simple 4 (maybe 3??) cyl engines on synth fuel, tube frame cars, cheap, just that one (or two?) brand producing the general parts but with interested manufacturers being allowed to build different front bumpers to look more like their cars and allowing teams to develop some things too - as long as its under some joker strategy to avoid costs skyrocketing

this is a new rallycross idea that started this year in europe and in america. i thought i'd hate that but its been really interesting to watch the progress. i agree that its kinda "souless", but eh, its cheaper and its a simple "race car" focused on racing, not brand marketing. i know we need manufacturer money in motorsport, but im not sure rallying is in a good position for that right now, so it could be interesting to get a cheap thing focused on passionated people (privateers, small teams, etc) wanting to race on a top national/international class.
you cant use THIS ONE for rallying but im just suggesting the general ideia. thoughts? (this is more about next R5 class, not Rally1.)
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AqXOcluzkNQ

[deephouse]

Seems hybrid not full EV is now the future for many manufacturers...

https://www.techradar.com/vehicle-tech/hybrid-electric-vehicles/car-giants-are-pulling-a-u-turn-on-their-ev-plans-heres-how-ford-hyundai-volvo-and-more-are-changing-course

Of course, we all knew they all would start crying... It's a matter of time when they will start taking u-turn on SUVs too.

[WRCStan]

Of course, we all knew they all would start crying...

Fact.


It's a matter of time when they will start taking u-turn on SUVs too.

Not happening in the foreseeable future.

[saco0o]

Of course, we all knew they all would start crying... It's a matter of time when they will start taking u-turn on SUVs too.

in brasil the stock car championship said they were going to use SUVs starting next year. that got mitsubishi interested. they are joining chevy and toyota, which is good for them. but i saw the chevy SUV for the championship
i still dont think this is a SUV haha this is what i THINK english speakers would call it a "Wagon"?
https://motorsport.uol.com.br/stockcar-br/news/stock-car-revela-primeiras-imagens-de-novo-carro-de-2025/10638375/
and weirdly v8sc said this is probably the idea for them too in the next cycle

when nascar showed their electric prototype, it was on a thing that i cannot call it "SUV", its a wagon in my eyes too
https://www.nascar.com/gallery/a-closer-look-at-nascars-new-electric-vehicle/

idk when I think of "SUVs" in racing i imagine this is the closest thing, and it doesnt bother me thaaat much
https://ml25zovx7n56.i.optimole.com/cb:5XgS.38959/w:auto/h:auto/q:mauto/f:best/https://vtcar.com/wp-content/uploads//id:186c92d193331cfd67442850c303e119/https://vtcar.com/Vermont_SportsCar_FC1X_NX_Program_23-scaled.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Using a hot-hatchback the basis for a WRC rally car sadly has to end as they are a dying breed.The 'crossover' has to be the best we can hope for as the SUVs are just too tall for nimble handling.

[Eli]

Using a hot-hatchback the basis for a WRC rally car sadly has to end as they are a dying breed.The 'crossover' has to be the best we can hope for as the SUVs are just too tall for nimble handling.

Guessing reffering back to C-Segment class isn't the way forward is it? Since they're slowly but surely killing those off too sadly.

[deephouse]

That's why spaceframe is for, right? To build whatever they want. I mean, are there actually regulations where they dictate that cars need to be B-Segment or whatever? And if it's open, why the hell do all brands use this as platform? Historically no matter the shape of a vehicle, it can be fast no matter size, or suspension travel (like they don't lift them up like some sort of SUVs for gravel events).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Yes suspension of current cars are jacked up for rough gravel events, but their body and roofline is still quite low, helping the centre of gravity. The whole USP of the suv is a high driving position so taller body. But the Sports part of SUV is a complete misnomer.

And the problem with using a spaceframe is it hasn't attracted any new Manufacturers to Rally1.

[becher]

That's why spaceframe is for, right? To build whatever they want. I mean, are there actually regulations where they dictate that cars need to be B-Segment or whatever? And if it's open, why the hell do all brands use this as platform? Historically no matter the shape of a vehicle, it can be fast no matter size, or suspension travel (like they don't lift them up like some sort of SUVs for gravel events).
No the B segment isn't dictated by the regulations but by physics.

Historically the size of the car was always important, every "big" car that has won a lot has a clear explanation attached to it, be it an innovation, shortcomings of the more compact cars of rivals or a pure lack of competition that used more suitable sized cars.

Also keep in mind that even the "big" cars like first gen Imprezas and early Evos were just around 4,4m. A properly big car hasn't been successful consistently in normal rallying ever since the sport was fully focused on special stages.

[deephouse]

So that's why Suzuki and Mini failed, right? And what about that Puma right now? If a private team could do it, why Hyundai is hesitating and others?

I keep wondering if there is any right formula to suit most if not all brands, who could sell their name in the series in these times. I'm not worried at all if the cars would be slower, just want it would be more interests, because still think it is the right place to show a new tech, and brand and have a better challenge than track racing. Is it more engines, segments, powertrains, events (I mean the right ones - those who are crucial to their marketing aspect), and more talented drivers, so they could have at least one title contender (right now if you put every top guy in one team, we could have at least 6 teams, counting Ogier also, because he isn't losing his mojo at all, few years back, there was maybe one or two realistically for the title).

Should the formula be to go back completely like stock cars, not so much aero, similar to Gr.A...

I think that right now even the manufacturers don't know what their future is, many of them are confused about going all EV and not going EV, or is it too soon... And waiting for FIA, what they even want to have isn't helping. Really don't know why they take it so long to decide what the future and long-term will be. And realistically even if they decide the next cycle of rules, who of new brands could enter in such a short time and be ready? So FIA will screw everything if not published in a short time.

What I'm really impressed is how that the event organizers (countries) have so much interest for hosting a round in a calendar with so little interest from all other aspects.

[becher]

So that's why Suzuki and Mini failed, right? And what about that Puma right now?


Just having the right concept doesn't make your car a winner automatically.

Just look at the first gen Mazda 323 4WD. All the right ingredients, the first modern Group A car, only the Delta was comparable in concept whereas all the others lacked this or that and brought compromised cars to the party in 1986. Yet one of the two dominated the era, the other won a single event with a serious entry list.

Also the Puma is roughly the same size (and wheelbase) as the other two.

[saco0o]

i KNOW most of racing fans HATE electric cars and SUVs - and combining both its just a nightmare - but thinking about all the politicial BS that exist behind motorsports, do you think "SOMETHING LIKE THIS" (not THIS CAR) is the eventual future for WRC? i would like to hear your thoughts on that - but please, if you are only going to say that you hate evs and this is a joke, just... move on. haha give me some usefull thoughts on how "something like this" could be wrc's eventual future OR NOT, based on all the "after 2030" greenwashing, with countries choosing carefully what they are going to financially support when it comes to events, for example, or stuff like "what manufacturers want to look like in motorsport after 2030".
some deep thoughts please! haha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQalDigk2-c

interesting to hear Tanner saying stuff like "we are in a weird era of motorsport because its cheaper for manufacturers to 'make content' instead of race on a track"
craaaaazy, tho its true. never thought of that in that way, jezzz

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rant on the spaceframe idea:

Starts 6 mins in...
https://youtu.be/eAP1EdWhBrs?si=js8f0FGkuE2ht_vN

[WRCStan]

Rant on the spaceframe idea:

Starts 6 mins in...
https://youtu.be/eAP1EdWhBrs?si=js8f0FGkuE2ht_vN

Why's he asking the manufacturers what they want for Rally2? Ask the participants - the customers know best. If that turns out to be a side-by-side then so be it.

But also why he assuming they're not speaking to manufacturers because the answer isn't positive and hasn't resulted in great deal of pr speculation, Lancia aside. Maybe nobody is interested?

Edit: Ah it's because he wants Rally2 to be the top class. Yawn. So let me ask, I thought this thread was just for fun. I'm not under the impression the 2027 plan for slower Rally1.5, tuners etc, got scrapped by the FIA. I thought just the immediate scrapping of hybrid and the Rally 2+ for 25/26. What's going on?

[Steve Boyd]

The potential problem in future with Rally2 is that it is based on homologation in GpA. If manufacturers lose interest in going through the homologation process then you don't have a base car to work with. Once you've got that base car you need to fabricate most of a space frame inside it to provide rollover protection and bodyshell strengthening. Moving to a space frame formula might give more opportunities for more developers outside of the manufacturers to produce Rally2 cars. It all depends on how the regulations are drafted and how the base car is selected and prepared.

[deephouse]

Why's he asking the manufacturers what they want for Rally2? Ask the participants - the customers know best. If that turns out to be a side-by-side then so be it.

But also why he assuming they're not speaking to manufacturers because the answer isn't positive and hasn't resulted in great deal of pr speculation, Lancia aside. Maybe nobody is interested?

Edit: Ah it's because he wants Rally2 to be the top class. Yawn. So let me ask, I thought this thread was just for fun. I'm not under the impression the 2027 plan for slower Rally1.5, tuners etc, got scrapped by the FIA. I thought just the immediate scrapping of hybrid and the Rally 2+ for 25/26. What's going on?

I don't think that many or any privateer would be interested in building a Rally2 car. I understand that he just want a base for next set of regulations should be something similar to Rally2. I mean why not, it's proven, it's safe and it's significantly lower in costs than Rally1 base. Still they could ramp up some performance aspect to be a pinnacle of the sport and not hurting Rally2 formula. And asking potential builders/manufacturers isn't a bad idea at all. Assuming that they would be interested and then actually not giving a fu*k is worse than listening to their wishes. They would build them for years and not one-off and that also would mean they have a little word in it and could showcase their best.

[saco0o]

if we could get (somebody like) msport and prodrive to share the building of a simple engine (NOT hybrid, because the focus is on the privateers and smaller teams) / space frame spec car that doenst look like any specific road car (i mean, cmoon, is not like we have that many different shapes anymore on our roads) and sell it for a controled cheap price... isnt that cheaper in the end? rallycross is going for spec tube frame cars all over the place (extreme-e, titans, rx lites, rx2e, evo, fc1x). in these examples, its way cheaper to get new parts too, since its all coming from 'one' place.
if skoda, subaru, toyota, chinese brands, peugeot wants to participate, then they just gotta produce the front bumpers with their road-based design (headlights and front grill). i THINK im shifting to this view tbh. you can keep this rule for 10 years because its just a matter of "upgrades" on the safety cell and tweeks on the aerokit(body shell) each 2 or 3 years - IF the costumer wants.

no? why this doesnt seem a bad idea in my mind? what am i missing here?

[stavrosGDB]

Colin Clark on WRC future..(greek subs because interviewed on greek channel).
https://youtu.be/ODhkwlgmjL4?si=_SXM2oBtNGe2h0LQ

[WRCStan]

if we could get (somebody like) msport and prodrive to share the building of a simple engine (NOT hybrid, because the focus is on the privateers and smaller teams) / space frame spec car that doenst look like any specific road car (i mean, cmoon, is not like we have that many different shapes anymore on our roads) and sell it for a controled cheap price... isnt that cheaper in the end? rallycross is going for spec tube frame cars all over the place (extreme-e, titans, rx lites, rx2e, evo, fc1x). in these examples, its way cheaper to get new parts too, since its all coming from 'one' place.
if skoda, subaru, toyota, chinese brands, peugeot wants to participate, then they just gotta produce the front bumpers with their road-based design (headlights and front grill). i THINK im shifting to this view tbh. you can keep this rule for 10 years because its just a matter of "upgrades" on the safety cell and tweeks on the aerokit(body shell) each 2 or 3 years - IF the costumer wants.

no? why this doesnt seem a bad idea in my mind? what am i missing here?

Sounds like you want to increase the cost of banger racing to me.

Let Rallycross/off-road racers do what they want. They don't have to be road legal, they drive in a circle of about 200m and there's nothing for manufacturers to get behind. Unless they want to race actual production road cars there's no need for them to pretend to be driving one.

[WRCStan]

And asking potential builders/manufacturers isn't a bad idea at all.

I agree it is a good idea. But pretending that the FIA with its manufacturers commission, and the Promoter with its survival hanging on the need for manufacturers, aren't speaking to them is a tad naïve/ignorant.

[deephouse]

I agree it is a good idea. But pretending that the FIA with its manufacturers commission, and the Promoter with its survival hanging on the need for manufacturers, aren't speaking to them is a tad naïve/ignorant.

What does make you sure, they are doing that? Their actions in recent times do quite the opposite. The guy in the video is right about them being nowhere. Again if action would speak, we would not be having this conversation right now. And where we are right now. Nowhere. It's completely blank.. The teams should start doing the 2027 project yesterday and probably will be next year somewhere around this date if they will go on like that.

[macebig]

Spaceframe may be a good idea if put under strict price cap and combined with road derived ICE (again price capped). Use power to weight for BoP and go from there.

[WRCStan]

What does make you sure, they are doing that? Their actions in recent times do quite the opposite. The guy in the video is right about them being nowhere. Again if action would speak, we would not be having this conversation right now. And where we are right now. Nowhere. It's completely blank.. The teams should start doing the 2027 project yesterday and probably will be next year somewhere around this date if they will go on like that.

Unless you're in the room with them, what an odd thing to say. Do you think I did much at work so far this year or do I choose to do nothing because I work for myself?

[deephouse]

Unless you're in the room with them, what an odd thing to say. Do you think I did much at work so far this year or do I choose to do nothing because I work for myself?

Probably you are just studying how to be grumpy all the time, annoy people, and enjoy being miserable. I don't have another explanation for why you always attack everyone here with your negativity and smart-ass answers. I'm sorry for the people around you.

[WRCStan]

Probably you are just studying how to be grumpy all the time, annoy people, and enjoy being miserable. I don't have another explanation for why you always attack everyone here with your negativity and smart-ass answers. I'm sorry for the people around you.

They love it don't worry about them.

[deephouse]

https://rallyjournal.com/wrc-team-boss-makes-firm-stance-on-the-future-they-are-not-the-top-priority/

If M-Sport with lowest budget says that the price of a Rally1 car isn't top priority to change, then this is not a problem. He is right.

Although all stupid FIA fines should be reconsidered and rather turned into a story and boost marketing aspect.

What I'm more concerned why the hell rulemakers needs so much time to decide (rules are probably being revealed in december). Is it enough to existing teams to prepar the cars? Is it enough time to Hyundai rethink and stay in the sport? Is it enough to convince potential new teams to enter? Well I think NOT. Another shoot in the leg.

[wyler]

I'm pretty confident hiunday and the potential newcomers (as the other manu) already know where things are going...

[deephouse]

I'm pretty confident hiunday and the potential newcomers (as the other manu) already know where things are going...

Do you have any more info than the rest of the world? Because it seems quite the opposite. The recent year actually showed that they don't know anything, nor even can't complete meetings, and saying that they get at least one step further. They are just throwing random stupid ideas to the world. Yet the real threat of one crucial brand is here, right now. And if things don't get right at the end, I believe that even M-Sport will lose that little piece from Ford they're getting. This isn't the right message to potential new entrants... And how would then even ''private'' teams prepare with significantly lower budget than official manufacturer teams?

[saco0o]

f1 with liberty became this thing that made every other motorsport series think they should do the same thing in order to reach f1's popularity and investment. we keep reading the word "promotion" everywhere now, this is so tiring and frustrating for an older fella like me haha

[wyler]

Do you have any more info than the rest of the world? Because it seems quite the opposite. The recent year actually showed that they don't know anything, nor even can't complete meetings, and saying that they get at least one step further. They are just throwing random stupid ideas to the world. Yet the real threat of one crucial brand is here, right now. And if things don't get right at the end, I believe that even M-Sport will lose that little piece from Ford they're getting. This isn't the right message to potential new entrants... And how would then even ''private'' teams prepare with significantly lower budget than official manufacturer teams?

fia speaks constantly with all involved, even if outside everything is silent, how can you believe that the manus involved have no idea of what's happening? they would be way more vocal.
they surely know the general direction. just the same way they didn't flinch that much with the rally1-/rally2+ announcement that then was retired. i guess manus were pretty confident to stay with this reg until '27. and now I'm positive they have talks and a general idea of what is brewing.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Latvala sounds worried....

https://rallyjournal.com/wrc-is-in-troubled-waters-jari-matti-latvala-comments-on-the-latest-rumours/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hayden Paddon on Spin, The Rally Pod discusses how rallying should change:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/paddons-take-on-how-rallying-should-improve/

The big choice of direction will be going for more manufacturers, or more privateers...

[deephouse]

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/7DPPrpQSZbS4HbrQ/

Would that be a future? 😂

[Dimitris]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/sordo-thinks-wrc-would-be-more-fun-without-hybrid/

Interesting Reid quotes there

[deephouse]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/sordo-thinks-wrc-would-be-more-fun-without-hybrid/

Interesting Reid quotes there

And yet still don't get it. That man is spinning in a infinite circle.

[saco0o]

"The next set of WRC regulations, streamlined for 2027, are set to leave propulsion options open to manufacturers, so there will be no requirement to run a hybrid unit."
Reid: "The automotive industry hasn’t kind of worked out where it’s going and we feel the best option is to have something that, you know, a manufacturer can come along and they have the freedom to adopt what they want. So I think for me that’s very positive,”.

WHAT? did i missed the news where they announced this?
(im still not confident this will atract manufacturers, tbh)

[Eli]

"The next set of WRC regulations, streamlined for 2027, are set to leave propulsion options open to manufacturers, so there will be no requirement to run a hybrid unit."
Reid: "The automotive industry hasn’t kind of worked out where it’s going and we feel the best option is to have something that, you know, a manufacturer can come along and they have the freedom to adopt what they want. So I think for me that’s very positive,”.

WHAT? did i missed the news where they announced this?
(im still not confident this will atract manufacturers, tbh)

You didn’t, they remain tight lipped about it, I’ll be surprised if we’ll know anything before December this year.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

WHAT? did i missed the news where they announced this?
(im still not confident this will atract manufacturers, tbh)

It's just an update on where the discussions seem to be leading - 'run what you brung' with EoP - but nothing official agreed yet for 2027.

[saco0o]

'manufacturers want SUVs, hybrid, evs, hydrogen"
last week Toyota announced its entering V8Supercars with a GR Supra. the road car is sold with a 6Cyl 3L engine, but naaah, they will compete with a V8 (the championship allows 6 and 4 cyl cars). obviously is not an actual FACTORY team like in wec, wrc but they seemed super happy about joining the championship - without hybrids, hydrogen, SUV or ev
sorry for the random rant

[deephouse]

I think Toyota is the most diverse of all brands. They offer practicaly everything and cover all the people wishes (and we know every person wants different things). It's a fact that they are top 1 for many years now. While literally all others follow the agenda and keep punching themselfes in the faces with all those "only EVs and SUVs".

[denkimi]

'manufacturers want SUVs, hybrid, evs, hydrogen"
last week Toyota announced its entering V8Supercars with a GR Supra. the road car is sold with a 6Cyl 3L engine, but naaah, they will compete with a V8 (the championship allows 6 and 4 cyl cars). obviously is not an actual FACTORY team like in wec, wrc but they seemed super happy about joining the championship - without hybrids, hydrogen, SUV or ev
sorry for the random rant
It never made sense to promote hybrid in the WRC. Those that watch rallying are not the people that are looking to specifically buy a hybrid.

Promote the green idea's to green people at bike shows, not to petrol heads.

[mknight]

It never made sense to promote hybrid in the WRC. Those that watch rallying are not the people that are looking to specifically buy a hybrid.

Promote the green idea's to green people at bike shows, not to petrol heads.

There it goes again.

Here in Norway the type of people that switched to EVs in large numbers as one of the first groups were BMW5/Audi A6 drivers that switched to Model S cause it accelerated much faster (for the same amount of money), and was more "cool and new" tech. Later same type of people switched to Porsche Taycan. Next type was BMW3 drivers that switched to Model 3 Performance, Polestar 2 performance or lately BMW i4/ Ioniq 5 N/ EV6 GT.

Similarly, before that you would get people switching from Volvo diesel to T8 plug-in hybrid partly because of much more power.

Neither of these are "green people at bike shows."

But off course there would be much fewer switching if the EV or hybrid was much more expensive. Which is why manus wanted to promote Hybrids/EVs to people that actually are likely to spend more money on a car. "Green people at bike shows" won't.

[denkimi]

There it goes again.

Here in Norway the type of people that switched to EVs in large numbers as one of the first groups were BMW5/Audi A6 drivers that switched to Model S cause it accelerated much faster (for the same amount of money), and was more "cool and new" tech. Later same type of people switched to Porsche Taycan. Next type was BMW3 drivers that switched to Model 3 Performance, Polestar 2 performance or lately BMW i4/ Ioniq 5 N/ EV6 GT.

Similarly, before that you would get people switching from Volvo diesel to T8 plug-in hybrid partly because of much more power.

Neither of these are "green people at bike shows."

But off course there would be much fewer switching if the EV or hybrid was much more expensive. Which is why manus wanted to promote Hybrids/EVs to people that actually are likely to spend more money on a car. "Green people at bike shows" won't.
And none of those are the kind that comes to watch rallying.

[manthey]

There it goes again.

Here in Norway the type of people that switched to EVs in large numbers as one of the first groups were BMW5/Audi A6 drivers that switched to Model S cause it accelerated much faster (for the same amount of money), and was more "cool and new" tech. Later same type of people switched to Porsche Taycan. Next type was BMW3 drivers that switched to Model 3 Performance, Polestar 2 performance or lately BMW i4/ Ioniq 5 N/ EV6 GT.

Similarly, before that you would get people switching from Volvo diesel to T8 plug-in hybrid partly because of much more power.

Neither of these are "green people at bike shows."

But off course there would be much fewer switching if the EV or hybrid was much more expensive. Which is why manus wanted to promote Hybrids/EVs to people that actually are likely to spend more money on a car. "Green people at bike shows" won't.

the main reason imho was fiscal incentives (now to rethink)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The FIA technical director Xavier Mestelan Pinon has offered an update on plans to increase manufacturer interest in WRC 2027...

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/fia-its-not-too-late-to-attract-new-marques-to-wrc-in-2027/10658175/

[becher]

the main reason imho was fiscal incentives (now to rethink)

For people who buy stupid expensive cars anyway, the 90% paying for luxury cars for the top 10%.

[saco0o]

The FIA technical director Xavier Mestelan Pinon has offered an update on plans to increase manufacturer interest in WRC 2027...

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/fia-its-not-too-late-to-attract-new-marques-to-wrc-in-2027/10658175/

its honestly impressive how we keep having articles saying absoluting nothing haha
we keep reading interviews with fia, team principals, drivers, brands etc about this new rules for 2027 and they all keep running in circles not knowing what to do. we are screwed.

[deephouse]

its honestly impressive how we keep having articles saying absoluting nothing haha
we keep reading interviews with fia, team principals, drivers, brands etc about this new rules for 2027 and they all keep running in circles not knowing what to do. we are screwed.

They're so over confident. I wonder what will they do if no one new will apply. Probably they will wait 6-7 years before they will start scratching their heads. Don't know why this rallying world always gets the news and all that comes along too late. And in comparision with F1 they're like. New regs will come out 2026 for 2035 cycle. Drivers signing new contracts 2 years before expiration for 10+ years, deals and venues get 20+ years and again few years before contracts ends. And here, well. We got something... Quite... They're talking... That's something no other series do better, I think. Bringing nothing and even that could be tweaked to worse (their thinking maybe)

[EstWRC]

What’s this about?

https://x.com/motorsportskoda/status/1841795339440771113?s=46&t=AWria8OgC1kV5QC61vX5Xg

[macebig]

Enyaq RS Race. An electric prototype by Skoda.

[deephouse]

They're probably just experimenting, like Ford did with that SuperVan, VW with that pikespeak machine record breaker. Skoda just unveiled some small SUV, Elroq.. It kinda like Fabia but higher. It could be perfect if everyone would go that way (and if they have a vision to cancel Fabia, like veryone else these days).

Some time ago I commented on Facebook under their post in a joke and they actualy reply. It was about their 600 cars sold. I commented them, how many seasons could they afford with all that money they get out of those cars. They reply: that is not realistic. In order to be viable, we closed down our factory team and focused purely on Customer Racing Programme, which we have perfected and thanks to which we can continue, and sustainability programmes also allow us to exist today and in the future. As Peter comments, going Rally1 under current conditions is not possible for us.

[saco0o]

hmmmmmmmmm smells like TCR? do we know if thats even something related to rallying?

anyway, rally2 rules are also changing in 2027 right?
its seems like the 'easier' way to go is to simply move from small hatchbacks to small crossover cars, keeping all the rest the same but with some upgrades on the door impact safety.
we talk a lot abot rally1s here, but if they are changing rally2s, they cannot go too crazy on that. new rules must allow current cars to compete on pair, so we can have a gradual change with time. waaay too many R5s out there for it to be simply scrapped.

[deephouse]

They should radicaly change Rally1 category in a way that could suit many entries, as manufacturers or private teams. Rally2 should be tweaked little by little and not touch in many ways as the formula was, is and it will be perfect for many years.

[saco0o]

i have this especific doubt on the R5s:
if i had the money to just install the roll cage safety cell specs on an Audi S1 or a Renault Megane, have the engine on the rules specs... can i simply enter and compete in wrc2/erc? or its not allowed? does manufacturers need to authorize this kind of thing? do they need do pay? is something related to homologation? cuz theres lots of models doing tcr and ap4 and none are actual factory teams. why that doesnt happens in rally2?

[macebig]

Rally 2s for FIA need to be homologated by a manufacturer. That's why Meirion Evans Mirage and Proton stayed local to the UK and the Holzer Corsa never took off.

[becher]

i have this especific doubt on the R5s:
if i had the money to just install the roll cage safety cell specs on an Audi S1 or a Renault Megane, have the engine on the rules specs... can i simply enter and compete in wrc2/erc? or its not allowed? does manufacturers need to authorize this kind of thing? do they need do pay? is something related to homologation? cuz theres lots of models doing tcr and ap4 and none are actual factory teams. why that doesnt happens in rally2?
You can do that in AP4 and Maxi Rally and some stuff in Spain (N5 I think), but none of those are FIA.

Rally 2 Kit is the only way to take an A1 for example like Ekström did for a few events (ORECA developed kit with a 1,6 PSA engine if I remember correctly). But those things are not on the level of proper Rally2 cars and the whole idea is kind of dying I think.

R5/Rally2 must be approved by the manufacturer for homologation. One example is the Holzer Corsa R5 from 2017, it got pretty far in development and they had built up a proper prototype but Opel/GM refused them the right homologate it.

TCR is also not a FIA ruleset, but most privately developed cars like the Alfa, Subaru and so one ended up uncompetitive or driven of the market by manufacturer developed cars.

[Mary Mary]

Rally 2s for FIA need to be homologated by a manufacturer. That's why Meirion Evans Mirage and Proton stayed local to the UK and the Holzer Corsa never took off.

Small note fwiw, the Iriz was FIA homologated by Proton of Malaysia.

[saco0o]

interesting! but what "homologation" means in that sense? is it "authorizing" the use of a car or they need to actvely be involved in the construction, selling, injet money...?
for example: can the vw group just say "yes, anyone can get a modern cupra small crossover model and turn it up to R5 specs...?" or the vw group kinda need to be involved? idk how that works hehe. i dont imagine ford giving fiestas do msport with rollcage installed for example, i understand that msport (and others) have authorization from the brand and fia to remove everything from a fiesta and turn it into the rally model.
am i too distant from reality? cuz if its like that it seems easier to kinda "hey manufacturers, next R5 rules is for small crossovers, can you all allow models "?

[Mary Mary]

interesting! but what "homologation" means in that sense? is it "authorizing" the use of a car or they need to actvely be involved in the construction, selling, injet money...?
for example: can the vw group just say "yes, anyone can get a modern cupra small crossover model and turn it up to R5 specs...?" or the vw group kinda need to be involved? idk how that works hehe. i dont imagine ford giving fiestas do msport with rollcage installed for example, i understand that msport (and others) have authorization from the brand and fia to remove everything from a fiesta and turn it into the rally model.
am i too distant from reality? cuz if its like that it seems easier to kinda "hey manufacturers, next R5 rules is for small crossovers, can you all allow models "?

Authorisation, yes.

FIA Rally2-5, there's multiple steps of homologation. First, a mass-manufacturer has to be producing a touring car in enough numbers, currently 2500 identical cars in the year up to homologation, and they need to get certification on that from a local ASN. Only the manufacturer can do that. This car has to be accepted into Group A by the FIA, which permits changes for safety and performance tuning for motorsport use. It used to be you could go racing and rallying at this point but not now, because all the 'touring car' series have special purpose cars now, even at lower levels, so in reality the application for Group A and Rally2-5 is simultaneous. The second homologation is to specialise a Group A car into what makes it a Rally2-5, which confirms compliance with those specific regulations. A private company may do this development work but will still need support and permission of the manufacturer to get this homologation because it's an 'extension' of the first, and there is probably protection for the manufacturers, FIA and buyer surrounding the selling of Rally2 kits/cars.

Ford will supply M-Sport with bodyshells and only the components they produce that M-Sport need, they don't remove anything from a completed road car - it's inefficient and not business sense. Other common parts from third parties will be procured by M-Sport. The Rally2 bits and pieces can be sold separately as a kit for a privateer to fit, this is how Polos continued to be (homologated)x built quietly, years after VW noisily withdrew from motorsport. but it also doesn't make sense for a privateer to pay for and rip out needless comforts and technology. VW may have sold/licensed out the design and spec for production of the kit, somebody else can confirm. Privateers also don't have the opportunity to get one or two bodyshells from a manufacturer without that manufacturer approving the idea.

For Rally1 it's a bit different as they are straight up race cars developed only for the WRC Rally1 championship. There is no Group A part. The Rally1 homologation requirements are not public, but if it's like the World Rally Car, the production certification still needs to be attained and the cars can only be homologated by a team that enters the WRC Manufacturer's championship, which is all very costly and requires big commitment. Ford will supply M-Sport with a phone number of whoever manufactures the headlights, windscreen and any other mandatory components, but everything else is up to M-Sport to procure, make and assemble.

When thinking of allowing privateers doing this without manufacturer support, don't forget that the manufacturers are powerful within the FIA and the FIA is not just about motorsport. Many manufacturers do not do motorsport yet a manufacturers' representative sits permanently on the World Motorsport Council, (the approver of ALL regulations), and various commissions and committees. It's not clear who is on the WRC commission at the moment because the FIA decided to keep it semi-secret this year. IMO, the idea that the FIA will encourage the privateer to replace manufacturers is not realistic. Not only is it demoting the FIA 'member manufacturers' presence, but there is big money involved from the manufacturers that do want to participate in sport, and they do not want to be against another manufacturer who gets a free ride by a privateer.

I hope this answer is useful.

[saco0o]

I hope this answer is useful.

that was a really interesting read for me, thanks! sounds WAY more complicated than what i thought.
good post, mate.

[saco0o]

after getting more into how difficult is the whole homologation thing, doenst this (image on the link, i cant post images, idk why) start to look like an option for Rally2?
normally, championships that use this type of car can reduce the general costs when its produced by just one or two brands. or when the rulers/spec for the construction are super strickt, you can build in house and it will be similar to the other's constructions (wait, i cant post the image haha its something like https://www.planetedacia.com/images/1200x0/UserFiles/Image/sport/andros/2012/Dacia_30557_1_6_1.jpg

[becher]

after getting more into how difficult is the whole homologation thing, doenst this (image on the link, i cant post images, idk why) start to look like an option for Rally2?
normally, championships that use this type of car can reduce the general costs when its produced by just one or two brands. or when the rulers/spec for the construction are super strickt, you can build in house and it will be similar to the other's constructions (wait, i cant post the image haha its something like https://www.planetedacia.com/images/1200x0/UserFiles/Image/sport/andros/2012/Dacia_30557_1_6_1.jpg
That is in concept at least more or less Rally1, but given we are talking about a world championship I would find it a shame to make Rally1 into a spec series.

[saco0o]

That is in concept at least more or less Rally1, but given we are talking about a world championship I would find it a shame to make Rally1 into a spec series.

Agree. Tho that would be more about Rally2 imo, where i domt think theres a necessity of big car developments, it should be more about drivers and costs.

however, if FIA and Promoter manage to lure ralliart (team) with mitsubishi body panels, x-raid with mini body panels, prodrive with renault body pannels, vermont or petter solberg team(?) with subaru body pannels, msport with puma, gazoo with yaris, etc.. then i would not care about a 'spec' rally1 structure, as long as they can bring their own engines or something like that
(haha not plausible, I KNOW. just wishing out loud)