UK Road Pricing!

[Kneeslider]

So, a couple of days ago there was much muttering in the UK about the introduction of road pricing to pay as you drive.

Now I was wondering what everyone's opinions about this are. A prominent exec from industry, (I think that it was the former chairman of British Airways) was tasked by the government to perform a feasability study, and he thinks that it is 'inevitable' in 10 years time!

The plan is that everyone has a GPS transponder in their car, and that it will automatically send a bill to your address every month according to when and where you have been driving. According to the former BA chairman, this could raise some £28bn of revenue for the government every year. Hmmm

On the Radio4 programme Any Questions on Friday night, a poll of people in the audience (from Doncaster) revealed that 2/3 of the audience was in favour....

[BDunnell]

If it is to be brought in and be viewed as legitimate, it HAS to be accompanied by a commensurate increase in spending on public transport, in order to create a real alternative. Of course, this has to happen anyway, but it will be even more imperative if road pricing is to firstly be deemed acceptable and then have an effect.

People also need to realise that public transport will always have imperfections. Even those systems that work better than the UK's have their faults, experience delays and so on. However, this is inevitable.

[BTCC2]

This could go in the new forum.Transport, Driving and cars. How exciting!!!

[sonic_roadhog]

This could go in the new forum.Transport, Driving and cars. How exciting!!!

LOL!

Well from my point of view its gonna kill my business, I run a driving school and I doubt any of my kids will be able to pay by the mile.

Sonic :(

[BDunnell]

Interesting point. I would assume that there would have to be various exemptions, such as driving schools. Trouble is, you could then end up with loads of people establishing driving schools!

[sonic_roadhog]

True, or becoming bus drivers to ferry their family around ;)

Sonic :)

[Captain VXR]

I hate the govornment, fecking $h1tty bullies hypocritical retards

[grassrootsracer]

And who will pay for the GPS transponders and the installation? What is this road tax attempting to do, other than raise money? Do you have a link to a news article?

[sonic_roadhog]

And who will pay for the GPS transponders and the installation? What is this road tax attempting to do, other than raise money? Do you have a link to a news article?

and how long till our transponders are used to catch us speeding by 0.1mph! GRRRR

[grassrootsracer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6208312.stm

[Daniel]

So, a couple of days ago there was much muttering in the UK about the introduction of road pricing to pay as you drive.

Now I was wondering what everyone's opinions about this are. A prominent exec from industry, (I think that it was the former chairman of British Airways) was tasked by the government to perform a feasability study, and he thinks that it is 'inevitable' in 10 years time!

The plan is that everyone has a GPS transponder in their car, and that it will automatically send a bill to your address every month according to when and where you have been driving. According to the former BA chairman, this could raise some £28bn of revenue for the government every year. Hmmm

On the Radio4 programme Any Questions on Friday night, a poll of people in the audience (from Doncaster) revealed that 2/3 of the audience was in favour....
What a load of crap (the idea that's being proposed, not your post). Why don't they actually prove that they can provide a decent public transport system and THEN and only then can they legitimately charge people for using the roads.

[Drew]

I hope this ends up in complete and utter chaos, like the ID scheme.

No way are they putting a GPS transponder in my car!

[Rollo]

What a load of crap (the idea that's being proposed, not your post). Why don't they actually prove that they can provide a decent public transport system and THEN and only then can they legitimately charge people for using the roads.

As you probably well know by now Daniel, the UK has the world's best road system. And why? It might have something to do with the 53p/L you already pay for petrol. That's already a user pays system.

I mean if you're not putting petrol in your car, what are you doing with it? And if that 53p/L is not already being spent on roads, then there's a case that surely must be answered for in terms of gross criminal negligence.

53p/L is a lot to be raping from people's wallets :(

[Daniel]

I agree Rollo. But at least the petrol's better here :up:

[LotusElise]

Anything technology-related this government tries to do ends up in chaos and is often abandoned - the NHS computer system and Choose and Book, which no-one uses, come to mind.
It won't happen. If it does, there'll only be a thriving black market in professional transponder vandalism.

[Kneeslider]

Some of the figures quoted by the consultation paper are indeed quite scary. In peak times, to drive on the busiest (and therefore most popular) roads it could cost you 80p/km. Now if this is really the case, then it makes the road pricing charge a whole lot greater than the fuel costs! Will this provide a dis-incentive to using more fuel efficient cars?

And what of motorcycles? A couple of years back I used to tootle around on a 1941 Ariel W/NG 350. This had NO electrical system, but was perfectly legal to drive on the road during the daytime, as it had a daylight only MOT certificate. How would the transponder be powered? And if I needed to use batteries to keep the transponder going, could I just claim that the batteries were dead?

Would I need to retrofit a transponder to my Ducati? If so, where would it go?

If I fitted a transponder to the TR6, then who would know if I left it off the car, attached to a battery in the garage?

If big brother really does know where you are all the time, then do not be surprised if an element of 'function creep' appears, remember when the London conjestion charge came in, it was £5, now only a couple of years later it is £8 and is due to go up to £10. When the technology is in place, then it will be used and prices adjusted to what the market can stand. If there is still conjestion, then just solve it by upping the price. All speeding related offences would be dealt with by direct debit too, and presumably your license would be revoked automatically in a similar manner.

Those who will be hit the hardest are those who are only just able to run a car now, and it is the freedom of the populace which will suffer the most.

You can guage the quantity of activity within the econommy by the utilisation of it's transport networks, and it is inevitable that it will harm the competitiveness of the country in the long run.

If you really must increase the cost of driving, then the simple way to do it is to up the level of fuel duty, becuase this is a cheap version of road pricing, which is not open to abuses, administration costs and technological uncertainty. But then again, given the choice between a cheap and efficient fix, and a complex, ineficient expensive one, which option do you think the government would choose??

[BDunnell]

If you really must increase the cost of driving, then the simple way to do it is to up the level of fuel duty, becuase this is a cheap version of road pricing, which is not open to abuses, administration costs and technological uncertainty. But then again, given the choice between a cheap and efficient fix, and a complex, ineficient expensive one, which option do you think the government would choose??

Or, indeed, the choice between a cheap and efficient fix and a complex, inefficient, expensive one that will give more work to awful companies such as Capita and EDS who are always favoured by this government for no discernable reason at all...

[Kneeslider]

It just occurred to me, that there was recently a study of where it was best to live in the world, and Ireland came out on top, followed by Switzerland, then Norway. The UK was way down at something like 29th, and the bottom of the lot was Zimbabwe. Now could things like ID cards, CCTV, Road pricing and the most expensive public transport per mile of, well, anywhere be something to do with it? It seems like the consensus in the country is that you don't want to see someone else having a better time than you, so you should ban them from doing it. The other consensus is that something which is a pleasure to do is in some way sinful, and you need to repent for your wrongs.

Shame then, that we have a dour fun hating Scotsman as the chancellor of the exchequer, and soon to have him as the prime minister.

Soon sitting on the toilet is going to be the only private fun that anyone can have without the government sticking their noses in and insisting that it be taxed.

Still, given that I am in the 40% taxpaying bracket, I guess I am entitled to a rant, after all, I am paying for all of this! :(

[BDunnell]

It just occurred to me, that there was recently a study of where it was best to live in the world, and Ireland came out on top, followed by Switzerland, then Norway.

I'm sure I'm right in saying that Norway's tax rates, in common with the other Scandinavian countries in which standards of living are similarly high, have traditionally been higher on a percentage basis than those in the UK.

[real_illusions]

On the Radio4 programme Any Questions on Friday night, a poll of people in the audience (from Doncaster) revealed that 2/3 of the audience was in favour....

Were all those people related to labour of somesort?


I cant believe some people can support our govenment...

[Hazell B]

The extra cash can't all be raised on fuel duty - it would lead to a massive rise in theft/dodgy fuel being produced and used, just like all the fake cigarettes being smoked here at the moment. That would eventually lead to less money being raised.

From what I've gathered, it's only some roads being charged for. Is that right? If so, not everyone's journey will be on the clock and only part of other journeys. So long as it's reasonably fair, I have no problem with that.

Having just fitted one of the Bioflow magnets to my 2.5 TD engine and seen the fuel use drop (if I noticed, it must have dropped a lot, too!) I can't understand why the government can't make the magnets cheaper and lower emissions that way, then charge for some roads on a fair basis that includes asking locals about rat runs and so on first. They shouldn't charge for motorways or people will start using longer B road routes.

[nicemms]

=

then charge for some roads on a fair basis that includes asking locals about rat runs and so on first. They shouldn't charge for motorways or people will start using longer B road routes.

Exactly. Then the B roads that connect rural places will get seriously blocked up for the locals who have no option but to use them.

I think the taxes should be small on motorways and country roads but high on roads in towns and cities.That should encourage people to go to cities by public transport.

Also journeys that are less than 1.5miles should be heavly taxed which may persuade people to walk small distances rather than using the car.

[Daniel]

Exactly. Then the B roads that connect rural places will get seriously blocked up for the locals who have no option but to use them.

I think the taxes should be small on motorways and country roads but high on roads in towns and cities.That should encourage people to go to cities by public transport.

Also journeys that are less than 1.5miles should be heavly taxed which may persuade people to walk small distances rather than using the car.
Which is fine if you don't need to go through a town to get to your job like some do. Caroline drives right through a town on the way to her job. She could go around but it'd be a lot slower and cost a lot more.

I think that stupid GPS tracking thing is going to be instituted it should be done properly and without all the complications. In Australia we had a GST (basically our version of your VAT) tax policy which was going to be instituted and would have been good. But then people meddled and certain things had tax and some did not. Like for instance a hot chicken does have tax but a cold one does. People f***ed around with it so much that all the advantages were eroded and it simply complicated people's lives. When people make something so stupid and complicated that's when you have to employ more people just to support a tax and then instead of the money going towards making public transport a better option you waste money on supporting the tax itself rather than supporting what the tax is there to support.

Plus if you make taxes higher on motorways and in towns and cities you'll just encourage people onto B roads and from what I've seen they're not exactly the best for carrying large amounts of traffic and would probably end up in more accidents and a higher road toll.

in my opinion you either have blanket taxes on all roads or none at all. People like taxi drivers or low income families can apply for rebates perhaps. But don't overcomplicate it please.....

[Dave B]

This government has a history of screwing up major IT projects, so to suggest that every one of, what, 20 million cars is fitted with a GPS system is ludicrous.

The people who currently don't pay tax or don't worry about insurance sure as hell will find a way round having one fitted.

Hazell may worry about an increase in fuel theft /fraud, but it would be a darn sight simpler to police than this pie-in-the-sky idea.

Fuel tax may be high and unpopular, but quite simply if you don't pay it your car will sit there with an empty tank leaving the environment in peace.

No, the big problem is that so often there is no reasonable alternative but to use the car. I use the Tube because it's reasonable and efficient most of the time, but outside of London public transport is a joke.

Railways are expensive unless you book well in advance, which isn't always possible. And by their very nature they are linear, so unless a line happens to pass near you and near your destination, journeys are fraught with changes and delays.

The routes which are popular are proving to be a victim of their own success, and instead of inventing in ways of increasing capacity the government seem hell bent on pricing people back off of them! Amazing stupidity!

Busses in many city centres can be excellent, certainly when I lived in Bristol they were regular and cheap. But for journeys further afield, or from town to town, they tend to be hopeless. And round here they stop about 7pm, making them useless for a night out.

I'd quite happily use public transport instead of the car, I really would. But in all honesty it's only when I go into London that option becomes realisitic. The rest of the time it's far more convenient, even with all the jams and expense, to use my polluting disruptive car.

[BDunnell]

I'd quite happily use public transport instead of the car, I really would. But in all honesty it's only when I go into London that option becomes realisitic. The rest of the time it's far more convenient, even with all the jams and expense, to use my polluting disruptive car.

Fine, but don't expect using that car to get any cheaper.

I seem to manage OK with public transport in all but the most rural areas — and even then you can normally get by. The trouble is that people seem to expect public transport to be able to deliver you 'door to door', just as a car can, and are disappointed when they find out that it can't. Truth is, of course, it shouldn't be expected to.

I agree that public transport provision in the UK is nowhere near as good as it could be. This, of course, is down to under-investment in it going back years and years, in part because the public have tended to vote in governments who have not been interested in it and were more keen on keeping taxes low. This is a key difference compared with many European nations in which provision is far better.

[Daniel]

Fine, but don't expect using that car to get any cheaper.

I seem to manage OK with public transport in all but the most rural areas — and even then you can normally get by. The trouble is that people seem to expect public transport to be able to deliver you 'door to door', just as a car can, and are disappointed when they find out that it can't. Truth is, of course, it shouldn't be expected to.

I agree that public transport provision in the UK is nowhere near as good as it could be. This, of course, is down to under-investment in it going back years and years, in part because the public have tended to vote in governments who have not been interested in it and were more keen on keeping taxes low. This is a key difference compared with many European nations in which provision is far better.
Yes but in Perth I could get a bus to probably within a mile or so of most houses in the metropolitan area and closer for most of them :) From what people say it's nowhere near as good in the UK.

[BDunnell]

Yes but in Perth I could get a bus to probably within a mile or so of most houses in the metropolitan area and closer for most of them :) From what people say it's nowhere near as good in the UK.

I don't doubt that for one moment, but in cities such as Sheffield and Norwich of which I have personal experience, bus services strike me as being perfectly acceptable in general in terms of coverage. Certainly, services are no worse than those in comparable European cities I've been too, if perhaps a bit less frequent, possibly less reliable and with worse timetable information.

[Daniel]

I don't doubt that for one moment, but in cities such as Sheffield and Norwich of which I have personal experience, bus services strike me as being perfectly acceptable in general in terms of coverage. Certainly, services are no worse than those in comparable European cities I've been too, if perhaps a bit less frequent, possibly less reliable and with worse timetable information.
But a good deal of people don't live in the cities here in the UK so for them buses aren't really an option. If the government was going to make a system that was going to cover 90% of the country with a decent public transport system I think a lot of people would support this sort of thing but the government as a lot of people have said haven't shown the inclination so they see it as nothing more than making money while being seen to be making an effort. All that's going to happen is the cost of living will go up, people will then get paid more and you'll be back where you started and people will be driving just as much.

[BDunnell]

But a good deal of people don't live in the cities here in the UK so for them buses aren't really an option. If the government was going to make a system that was going to cover 90% of the country with a decent public transport system I think a lot of people would support this sort of thing but the government as a lot of people have said haven't shown the inclination so they see it as nothing more than making money while being seen to be making an effort. All that's going to happen is the cost of living will go up, people will then get paid more and you'll be back where you started and people will be driving just as much.

I was only referring to cities, really.

The problem with rural bus transport is that services very rarely, if ever, make any money for the operators and councils rarely, if ever, recoup their subsidies. People tend to moan about the lack of services but then don't use them if they are introduced, and wonder why they then get axed.

[Daniel]

I was only referring to cities, really.

The problem with rural bus transport is that services very rarely, if ever, make any money for the operators and councils rarely, if ever, recoup their subsidies. People tend to moan about the lack of services but then don't use them if they are introduced, and wonder why they then get axed.
Well in Perth there are a number of less popular routes which are around. I have been on many buses on which the driver and I were the only person. Routes like that should be subsidised by more popular routes and the government. It shouldn't be up to each route to make itself viable. Public transport is only a viable alternative if there is transport available to a good percentage of the area and it needs to run regularly otherwise people will just buy cars and drive.

[BDunnell]

Well in Perth there are a number of less popular routes which are around. I have been on many buses on which the driver and I were the only person. Routes like that should be subsidised by more popular routes and the government. It shouldn't be up to each route to make itself viable. Public transport is only a viable alternative if there is transport available to a good percentage of the area and it needs to run regularly otherwise people will just buy cars and drive.

I agree absolutely with your sentiments, but in many rural areas, the 'more popular' routes probably don't generate enough income to provide much of a subsidy to the less-used ones.

[LotusElise]

Buses outside major cities in this country are a total joke, and not a very funny one.
Where my parents live, it is almost impossible to catch one at any time that would get most people in to work, unless you use a school bus that does not stop anywhere close to the industrial estates or the town centre, where most people work.
My current daily journey is a nightmare and I would like to have the option of public transport, at least, but the town where I live has no train station. Buses are irregular and the timetable seems to be more suited to pensioners that to working people. Once I get to the town where I work, I would need to get a taxi to the proper place as it is a long (up to 1 hour) walk, along a main road with no pavement, from the bus station.
I don't really have any option but to drive and I am on a low wage. How am I meant to pay more?

[Daniel]

I agree absolutely with your sentiments, but in many rural areas, the 'more popular' routes probably don't generate enough income to provide much of a subsidy to the less-used ones.
Then government subsidies are the only answer. If the government really wants to give the impression that they go out and hug trees in their lunch break then they need to bite the bullet and support public transport as a whole.

[BDunnell]

Then government subsidies are the only answer. If the government really wants to give the impression that they go out and hug trees in their lunch break then they need to bite the bullet and support public transport as a whole.

Again, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Dave B]

So should public transport be re-nationalised? Or can subsidising private (and therefore profit-making) companies be a workable solution?

[BDunnell]

So should public transport be re-nationalised? Or can subsidising private (and therefore profit-making) companies be a workable solution?

I believe that the rail network should be re-nationalised - but I'm in the middle of cooking tea now, so don't have the time to explain why. Suffice to say, I think rail privatisation (not just in the way it was carried out, with separation of track and services, but the whole idea) was one of the most disastrous Conservative policies of all, and for all three main parties to now be in favour of maintaining it really annoys me. Politicians of all these parties often trumpet the advantages of 'choice', yet I as a voter have no choice when it comes to this issue. I would have to vote for Respect in order to support a party which doesn't believe in rail privatisation, and I'm not about to do that. Where's the choice?

As for bus services, I don't think they would benefit from being re-nationalised, but local authorities need greater control over the level and standard of services.

[Daniel]

So should public transport be re-nationalised? Or can subsidising private (and therefore profit-making) companies be a workable solution?
I'd have reservations about that.

Mr Bus Company Guy: I pay myself too much and can't run my company properly so we're making a loss can I please get some money to subsidise my stupidity? :s tareup:

I honestly can't say I know enough about how the railways and bus services are run over here to give a more in depth opinion but it would be my worry that subsidies would just become a handout.

[BDunnell]

I'd have reservations about that.

Mr Bus Company Guy: I pay myself too much and can't run my company properly so we're making a loss can I please get some money to subsidise my stupidity? :s tareup:

I honestly can't say I know enough about how the railways and bus services are run to give a more in depth opinion but it would be my worry that subsidies would just become a handout.

Weren't you advocating subsidies a few posts ago?

It is worth pointing out that no other country in the world engaged in rail privatisation has gone about it in the same way as the UK, for obvious reasons, and plenty have retained nationalisation. In my experience, these are among the best.

[Daniel]

Weren't you advocating subsidies a few posts ago?

It is worth pointing out that no other country in the world engaged in rail privatisation has gone about it in the same way as the UK, for obvious reasons, and plenty have retained nationalisation. In my experience, these are among the best.
Just giving both sides of the equation that's all ;)

In Perth the buses were partly privatised and the rail system was still government run. But in Australia it's very much a system of state goverments having a lot more power than they appear to have here :) Considering I come from a state which is far larger than the whole of the UK I like it that way too! :)

[real_illusions]

The government's proposal to introduce road pricing will mean you having to purchase a tracking device for your car and paying a monthly bill to use it. The tracking device will cost about £200 and in a recent study by the BBC, the lowest monthly bill was £28 for a rural florist and £194 for a delivery driver. A non working Mum who used the car to take the kids to school paid £86 in one month. On top of this massive increase in tax, you will be tracked. Somebody will know where you are at all times. They will also know how fast you have been going, so even if you accidentally creep over a speed limit in time you can probably expect a Notice of Intended Prosecution with your monthly bill.
If you care about our freedom and stopping the constant bashing of the car driver, please sign the petition on No 10's new website (link below) and pass this on to as many people as possible.

Please sign the petition
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax/

:)

[Valve Bounce]

Is this tax for real, or are you pulling my leg? :confused:

[Mark]

We don't allow petitions on the forum, so the link has been removed. However the thread topic is valid. And Valve, yes, sadly, it is for real :(

[Knock-on]

We don't allow petitions on the forum, so the link has been removed. However the thread topic is valid. And Valve, yes, sadly, it is for real :(

Can I ask why a petition is not allowed?

Surely, if we are capable of discussing every subject from scrunching toilet paper to the merits, or otherwise, of hanging Dictators, then we can at least make a rational decision on whether to put our names behind something we may believe in.

Is it porn, is it spam, is it advertising? No, it's a logical progression from discussing a subject to having a direct impact on it; if we choose to.

Reality check?

[Daniel]

Can I ask why a petition is not allowed?

Surely, if we are capable of discussing every subject from scrunching toilet paper to the merits, or otherwise, of hanging Dictators, then we can at least make a rational decision on whether to put our names behind something we may believe in.

Is it porn, is it spam, is it advertising? No, it's a logical progression from discussing a subject to having a direct impact on it; if we choose to.

Reality check?
We've had petitions before! :crazy:

Petition in my sig :) Copy and paste :)

[Mark]

Because petitions are quite often fronts for email address harvesters.

[Daniel]

But we can trust Tony can't we? :cheese: