FIA Rally Working Group: the future of WRC and the rally sport

[WRCStan]

At the Baku World Motor Sport Council meeting in December 2023, a rally working group was announced (https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement-future-rallying) to discuss the future of rallying, from WRC to grassroots. The working group's immediate concern is the technical, sporting and promotional aspects of WRC (https://mailchi.mp/fia/rally-newsletter-december). Leading the group is Robert Reid and Dave Richards. Simultaneously, a new points format was announced for WRC 2024 season.

Like it or not, fundamental changes to what rallying is must be expected over the next few years or the sport becomes historic, a pastime of the oil age for privateers only taking place on fewer, shorter, events. Governments are phasing out fossil ICE cars and manufacturers are increasingly disinterested in the world series. Rally cars are nothing like consumer road cars unless they're in the ecoRally Cup. ASNs and top drivers are also seemingly giving up on participation.

This thread was inspired by the lengthy discussion the new points format was getting on the 2024 WRC News and Rumours thread. This could be a good place for sporting and promotional aspects discussion, questions, thrashing ideas or reviewing the working group's progress and proposals with a view to realism or constructivism. Whinging and moaning about how the good old days were better should be discussed elsewhere. Change is coming, or if it's not, try and make a discussable point.

For car technical discussion see also WRC main class in 2025 (https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?42305-WRC-main-class-in-2025).

[WRCStan]

The problem for the enthusiast is the TV & Promotion people trying to turn F1 & WRC from MotorSport to MotorEntertainment. While they are in charge they will always try to add more gimmicks to spice up the show. The FIA needs to stand up to this nonsense. You don't get football matches with bonus points for goals in the last 5 minutes - if a league game is deadlocked it's allowed to finish as a draw. There's a discussion over how dull or entertaining it was and everyone moves on to the next match.

One problem for many enthusiasts is they haven't realised WRC ceased to be sport a while ago, this is true at Rally1 level. Another is believing the FIA's role is solely as an impartial, wholly sporting governing body.

Football is full of ideas from 60 minute games to scrapping points for draws, it's not immune. The European Super League is a timely mention with PLuto's comment about needing the FIA. European Court said last week that UEFA/FIFA can't stop that or punish participants. A privately run series might be the only international rallying series in the future if the format doesn't change. FIA won't be backing current format rallying for long.


There is no proper chance to make alternative championship. For FIA (and also for WRC Promoter) it is business and they dont want another player on the field. And you cannot make the rally championship without FIA...

[bomber21]

As the time passes, for me one thing is clear: JUST DO WHATEVER IS NEEDED TO ATTRACT MANY MANUFACTURERS. Nothing else matters.

[WRCStan]

As the time passes, for me one thing is clear: JUST DO WHATEVER IS NEEDED TO ATTRACT MANY MANUFACTURERS. Nothing else matters.

For what? Entering WRC and entertaining you through a screen or for building cars you can go rallying with?

[bomber21]

For what? Entering WRC and entertaining you through a screen or for building cars you can go rallying with?
To be honest, I do not know, it looks like a dead end. But I understand that a series that interest only privateers/semi works teams with Rally2 will soon become irrelevant and historic.

[Rallyper]

Let´s say international football associations banning a round footballs in the future. Saying round footballs are not environment friendly. They instead recommend cubic balls. What would happen?

When will electric rallycars be mandatory and only vehicles authorised by FIA? To me I think WRC will vansih. Only village rallies with old cars will be permitted by some exemption.

Maybe that´s the future.

I admit I´m just blablablaing... :)

[Rallyper]

Let´s say international football associations banning round footballs in the future. Saying round footballs are not environment friendly. They instead recommend cubic balls. What would happen?

When will electric rallycars be mandatory and only vehicles authorised by FIA? To me I think WRC will vansih. Only village rallies with old cars will be permitted by some exemption.

Maybe that´s the future.

I admit I´m just blablablaing... :)

[WRCStan]

Not mandatory but according to the 2023 Environmental report, experimental EV and Hydrogen will be in WRC from 2025. That was not in the 2022 report so should indicate being a recent idea. Just a graphic though, no explanation and sits alongside hybrid and sustainable fuel until 2027.

[denkimi]

As the time passes, for me one thing is clear: JUST DO WHATEVER IS NEEDED TO ATTRACT MANY MANUFACTURERS. Nothing else matters.
No, you're thinking it backwards. Attracting manufacturers is a consequence of a good healthy sport that has a lot of fans, not the other way around.

Manufacturers compete because they think they get a good money/exposure ratio to attract potential customers. Sponsors are exactly the same. So you need to do whatever is needed to attrack more fans, which will increase the exposure, which will attract more sponsors, more money and eventually more manufacturers.

If you chase away fans to try and attract manufacturers, you're only killing the sport. If nobody watches, nobody sees your advertisement anymore, so there is no more reason to put money into the sport, both by sponsors and by manufacturers.

[bomber21]

No, you're thinking it backwards. Attracting manufacturers is a consequence of a good healthy sport that has a lot of fans, not the other way around.

Manufacturers compete because they think they get a good money/exposure ratio to attract potential customers. Sponsors are exactly the same. So you need to do whatever is needed to attrack more fans, which will increase the exposure, which will attract more sponsors, more money and eventually more manufacturers.

If you chase away fans to try and attract manufacturers, you're only killing the sport. If nobody watches, nobody sees your advertisement anymore, so there is no more reason to put money into the sport, both by sponsors and by manufacturers.
So what are you suggesting WRC should do?

[lmmjvss]

Its so chillin to follow ERC and the NewZealand championship. Lots of cars, almost no drama about everything. Its like...theres drivers, theres cars and theres closed roads waiting to be raced. Theres some broadcast cuz thata interesting to sponsor's money (RoI)...and thats it. The "WHAT WRC NEED TO DO" thing is making me watch less and less, gotta be honest. I stopped paying for the app to watch on redbutv highligts. Last 5 rounds I only watched the redbull rally YouTube highlights that are 4 to 6 min long. Not sure this is happening to y'all too but....eh..... And losing Kalle AND to have this joke of Msport team in 2024 is like....guess Im only Reading results in ewrc next year :(
I dont see a bright future anymore tbh

[Rallyper]

Its so chillin to follow ERC and the NewZealand championship. Lots of cars, almost no drama about everything. Its like...theres drivers, theres cars and theres closed roads waiting to be raced. Theres some broadcast cuz thata interesting to sponsor's money (RoI)...and thats it. The "WHAT WRC NEED TO DO" thing is making me watch less and less, gotta be honest. I stopped paying for the app to watch on redbutv highligts. Last 5 rounds I only watched the redbull rally YouTube highlights that are 4 to 6 min long. Not sure this is happening to y'all too but....eh..... And losing Kalle AND to have this joke of Msport team in 2024 is like....guess Im only Reading results in ewrc next year :(
I dont see a bright future anymore tbh

However paying for RallyTV gives you lot more. Well worth. Test it. In all I agree, though.

[WRCStan]

Its so chillin to follow ERC and the NewZealand championship....

These are part of the same conversation btw, albeit with slightly less urgency. One big question is what cars are they driving in 10-15 years time.

[fiscorpun]

These are part of the same conversation btw, albeit with slightly less urgency. One big question is what cars are they driving in 10-15 years time.

2 seat crosscars on road-legal tires

[skarderud]

If we go way back in the history of rallying, lets say 60's or 70's, they rallied cars that you could by, modified versions ofc, but close to the model in the shop.
That time is defintly passed, the closest we get today is Rally4 and Rally5's.
The main point for the teams involved was to sell cars to the people watching it in the forrest. And use it in advertising, or pictures and results in the newspapers.
"Win on sunday, sell on monday" was Fords slogan.
I don't see any manu's advertising or use any ralling in commercials.

Is it any point to have this manu-involvment any more? Whats the point?

If a manu like Škoda or Hyundai make a "Rally2" streetversion with AWD it would make some sense, but you can't even by something close to a rallycar (exept of Toyota yaris GR ofc) in the shops, maybe it has to go back to a semi-profesional reality, times is over for the dream of F1 and the politics of the FIA and the manu's, rally as a sport has to go back to its roots and soul to survive i'm afraid.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[Rallyper]

If we go way back in the history of rallying, lets say 60's or 70's, they rallied cars that you could by, modified versions ofc, but close to the model in the shop.
That time is defintly passed, the closest we get today is Rally4 and Rally5's.
The main point for the teams involved was to sell cars to the people watching it in the forrest. And use it in advertising, or pictures and results in the newspapers.
"Win on sunday, sell on monday" was Fords slogan.
I don't see any manu's advertising or use any ralling in commercials.

Is it any point to have this manu-involvment any more? Whats the point? rally as a sport has to go back to its roots and soul to survive i'm afraid.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

This I´ve been preaching many years now.

The genuin sport was when modified versions was used. Remember guys buying BMW 2002 Tii on monday, mounting harder suspension and sumpguard, rallying on Saturday. Or in the 70´s buying VW 1303 for the price of just over 1000 Euros (13000 SEK) for national Cup.That was genuine to me.

[bomber21]

In all the major sports in this world, official teams participate, not amateurs.

[skarderud]

In all the major sports in this world, official teams participate, not amateurs.Who talked about amateurs?
Not a manufacturer-team is not the same as amateurs.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[WRCStan]

In all the major sports in this world, official teams participate, not amateurs.

Did you mean commercial or full time professionals?

I agree there is no World RC without manufacturers, but that doesn't stop anybody else locally/regionally.

How many major sports have participants travel to events around the globe in one season like motorsport, not just for one tournament?

[Jarek Z]

Is it any point to have this manu-involvment any more? Whats the point?

The point is that only manufacturers can afford to travel around the globe and compete in a 13-round championship.

[denkimi]

In all the major sports in this world, official teams participate, not amateurs.
Forgot about f1?

If redbull can have 2 f1 teams, they can just as easily have a wrc team.

[ictus]

Forgot about f1?

If redbull can have 2 f1 teams, they can just as easily have a wrc team.

If it was profitable they certinly would ;)

[Kenneth]

In all the major sports in this world, official teams participate, not amateurs.

You know in WEC almost all teams are semi-works. Out of 9 manufacturers only Toyota and Peugeot have in-house manufacturer teams, rest of them have Skoda-Toksport like relations. Well there are even some fully customer entries in Hypercar class. LMGT3 class doesn't even allow manufacturer teams, just customer entries with manufacturer's technical support.

In F1 there are only 3 manufacturers teams right now (+McLaren and Aston Martin kinda too but don't make own engines).

So you are totally wrong.

[AndyRAC]

The point is that only manufacturers can afford to travel around the globe and compete in a 13-round championship.


13 rounds is probably too many for a series the size of the WRC; especially in its current state with 2.5 manufacturers. 10 should be the limit. Even 16 was too many back in the early/ mid 00s.......

[WRCStan]

Forgot about f1?

If redbull can have 2 f1 teams, they can just as easily have a wrc team.

Maybe they already do :D

[WRCStan]

In F1 there are only 3 manufacturers teams right now (+McLaren and Aston Martin kinda too but don't make own engines).

They all make their own chasses (allegedly), and as they're not volume production manufacturers like necessary in WRC they are constructors. On that and Bomber's point they are all commercially viable teams else they wouldn't be there. Bomber isn't totally wrong.

[ToKu]

Cars should have more power.
The decline of the sport is imo proportional to decline of car's power.
Many of "rally friends" who were just occasional, not hardcore, fans dumped rallies after 2014. 2014 was the first WRC year with "smaller" WRC cars in Poland. They missed the "armageddon". The feeling of powerful car (vibration, deep bass, airpreassure, etc.) It was just fast car in 2014. Not insides shaking monster.

P.S. I believe that banning WRC cars from points in lower class rallies in effect from 2005 was the first serious mistake that hurt rallies.

More power = more spectacular rallies = more spectators = ...

[doubled1978]

Cars should have more power.
The decline of the sport is imo proportional to decline of car's power.
Many of "rally friends" who were just occasional, not hardcore, fans dumped rallies after 2014. 2014 was the first WRC year with "smaller" WRC cars in Poland. They missed the "armageddon". The feeling of powerful car (vibration, deep bass, airpreassure, etc.) It was just fast car in 2014. Not insides shaking monster.

P.S. I believe that banning WRC cars from points in lower class rallies in effect from 2005 was the first serious mistake that hurt rallies.

More power = more spectacular rallies = more spectators = ...

More power = more spectacular rallies = more spectators = More cost = less manufactures = less competition = boring rallies = rallying in trouble.

Cars with more power than Rally1 is the last thing we need as the cars are far too expensive as it is and in motorsport you can generally draw a straight line from increased power to increased cost.

[AndyRAC]

More power??? Really? That is not the issue with the sport.......They're more than powerful enough......

[Kenneth]

They all make their own chasses (allegedly), and as they're not volume production manufacturers like necessary in WRC they are constructors. On that and Bomber's point they are all commercially viable teams else they wouldn't be there. Bomber isn't totally wrong.

The part about WEC was more important, so I'll repeat it to you: LMGT3 class is only for customer teams, in Hypercar class most of the cars are run by private teams with manufacturer's support, similarly to most of WRC2's works teams.

[WRCStan]

The part about WEC was more important, so I'll repeat it to you: LMGT3 class is only for customer teams, in Hypercar class most of the cars are run by private teams with manufacturer's support, similarly to most of WRC2's works teams.

Entries in either class must be at least approved by manufacturers who must also register and pay the FIA. 8/12 hypercar teams have title manufacturer support. LMGT3 is a trophy piggybacking on hypercar. Maybe the gentlemen drivers subsidise the manufacturers and vice-versa.

What important point am I missing? I know very little about WEC but as far as I can see this championship isn't running without manufacturer involvement and support.

[macebig]

Think it's important to note that LMDh is essentially a single make from private developers like Oreca, Ligier, Dallara and Michelotto with nearly spec chassis and a spec Hybrid unit.

[Kenneth]

What important point am I missing? I know very little about WEC but as far as I can see this championship isn't running without manufacturer involvement and support.

The point is that WRC can easily work as customer teams based series, if it's possible in much much more expensive WEC.

[Kenneth]

Think it's important to note that LMDh is essentially a single make from private developers like Oreca, Ligier, Dallara and Michelotto with nearly spec chassis and a spec Hybrid unit.

No Oreca, Ligier, Dallara and Multimatic (not Michelotto) are chassis suppliers. The rest of the car is up to the manufacturers. But they can also make LMH car with their own chassis and own hybrid system.

[seb_sh]

I think we're getting lost in the details. There are many models that work for various series. A common element of the succesfull ones that I see is a form of spending limit, either directly (F1 cost cap) or indirectly (performance capped by BOP so you avoid a spending war for diminishing returns).GT3 was created in the late 2000's by Stephane Ratel using the lessons learned from the FIA GT. He wanted to avoid the spending war that killed the initial GT1 (nobody except Mercedes wanted to continue in 1999) and also make it useless to build "homologation specials" like many manufacturers did at that time. He also banned full works teams and promoted amateur drivers by creating special categories and classifications for them. He recognised that having wealthy amateurs that can race in their own category can help the championship health. Now GT3 has gotten quite expensive for some but Ratel is again ahead of the game and a new GT2 regulation with cheaper and simpler cars (but slower than GT3) has been around for a while and is now gaining traction. So anyone who is priced out of GT3 can go to GT2. There is of course also GT4 as a natural step below. The point for this story is not to apply the same to WRC, but I'm tring to show that GT3 is so succesfull because somebody (in this case Ratel) had a proper long term vision and learned lessons in the past. GT3 is now wildy succesfull and has been for more than a decade, both in high profile international series and lower profile national races.

So my point is that WRC first needs some kind of high level vision of what it should be, not only for the WRC but also the levels below. Then starting from that concept you can decide the details like rally format and technical rules. Unfortunately to me it seems that the WRC has usually been a day late and a dollar short, having to react to something and take some short term decisions with no clear future. WRC was the last major series to add a hybrid and has no clue about hydrogen, meanwhile in the WEC/Le Mans they are preparing a hydrogen class since a few years ago with active discussion with the manufacturers, but I think that's more coming from the ACO (organisers of Le Mans) than FIA. Regarding the WRC the FIA has been asleep as usual.

Now beside the format or cars there is actually another critical issue for the WRC and that is it's "story". Whenever I talked to my friends about WRC in the past 15 years it's usually: Oh that.. well Loeb/Ogier always wins, it's boring. Now it's very difficult to make rules to create a true rivalry because the best will always be the best, however what you can do is create conditions so that there are more challengers coming up. F1 is now also starting to have this problem with Verstappen and viewers are dropping. I think drive to survive helped sure, but the battle between Verstappen and Hamilton was also a big draw. It was a classic old multiple times champion vs young gun, a young pretender dueling with the old king if you will. In WRC the kings die of boredom and the young pretenders are scrapping to get a WRC2 program together to compete in some rallies where maybe they are not even directly competing with the other title contenders. If WRC wants to attract more people it needs a better story.

So to conclude, in my opinion there really first needs to be some fundamental things decided before you go into details. The important thing is to capture the essence of rally and preserve that and then find a format and presentation that works for a larger audience. The danger is that they do the opposite and keep the surface things but change the core - in that case they will lose both the die hard fans and fail to gain new ones.

[becher]

Think it's important to note that LMDh is essentially a single make from private developers like Oreca, Ligier, Dallara and Michelotto with nearly spec chassis and a spec Hybrid unit.

*Multimatic

Michelotto is doing the Isotta Fraschini Hypercar with a Mercedes engine and WAE hybrid system.

[denkimi]

More power = more spectacular rallies = more spectators = More cost = less manufactures = less competition = boring rallies = rallying in trouble.

Cars with more power than Rally1 is the last thing we need as the cars are far too expensive as it is and in motorsport you can generally draw a straight line from increased power to increased cost.

As i said before, manufacturers coming has nothing to do with the cost but everything with the cost/profit ratio. If there are more spectators, the profit of being there becomes bigger and thus the cost can also be bigger.
If wrc would attract half a billion viewers as f1 does, manufacturers would happy to spend 200 or 300 million dollars to compete instead of the 100 million or so they do today.

+ power has no relation to cost. You can buy a new 650hp camaro engine for about 10k. It's the rules to limit the power output that make the engines so expensive.

[becher]

The part about WEC was more important, so I'll repeat it to you: LMGT3 class is only for customer teams, in Hypercar class most of the cars are run by private teams with manufacturer's support, similarly to most of WRC2's works teams.

Ahm no, Hypercar had four privateers last season, two of which were constructors and therefore don't fit the classic privateer scheme. The manufacturers do employ independent motorsport operations (be it pure teams or engineering companys) to run and/or develop the cars though. It's like basically any WRC manufacturer team between the mid 90s and 2013 bar the french and Skoda and none of these were considered privateers.

[seb_sh]

+ power has no relation to cost. You can buy a new 650hp camaro engine for about 10k. It's the rules to limit the power output that make the engines so expensive.

This is a good point of why it makes sense to use BOP for some things. Technologically we can now build very powerfull engines so the rules are made with restrictions in place to limit power. Manufacturers will then spend a lot of money for very small gains. Sure BOP is artificial but is strangling the engine with restrictors and arbitrary limits more natural? Is it really worth it? What if the rules were like this: engine size and cilinders are free, the FIA homologates the engine and puts it on the dyno and it has to be max 400hp and whatever torque but you can only use max 2 engines per season and if you take extra you lose 10 points each time you use an extra engine. That way there is still an engineering challenge, it goes in the direction of sustainability and you have some freedom to make some cool sounding cars. Maybe this would also make it more accessible for privateers and MSport could sell a few more cars. Just an example of how it could go.

[becher]

The point is that WRC can easily work as customer teams based series, if it's possible in much much more expensive WEC.

Touring cars tried that and died a quick and miserable death (also nearly killed the TCR scene in general as a result). Sportscars is a very different market place, but even there it wasn't a long term solution to have a predominantly privateer top class, even though it is of vital importance to sportscar racing that you offer a place (mostly in the lower categorys) for privateers, which are mostly funded by rich amateurs (something rallying is lacking).

[WRCStan]

The point is that WRC can easily work as customer teams based series, if it's possible in much much more expensive WEC.

Perhaps we are having different trains of thought. I got here from Per saying somebody would buy a car on a Monday and go rallying the next weekend, these are Bomber's amateurs.

Customer teams are commercially viable/profitable, they're not amateurs, the clue is in the name. They have to meet the promoter's and FIA standards financially, oblige their commercial agreements and do other things like environmental accreditation. Amateurs aren't doing this except exceptionally. There is also a value of scale these teams bring where there are many customers, as do suppliers to the championships and events bring. The idea that these customers could arrange all this themselves as amateurs, that the FIA would allow it in a World Championship, is wrong.

Customer teams aren't a foreign concept to rallying, there is M-Sport in Rally1 and was 2C a few years ago, amongst the WRC2 offering. They aren't sustaining a world championship though, we can see it. Not even WRC2 or Rally2 as top class can sustain a world championship.

[AndyRAC]

As i said before, manufacturers coming has nothing to do with the cost but everything with the cost/profit ratio.
.

Yeah; manufacturers will put up with costs, if there is value for them, from the sport. And, quite obviously, currently, there is no value.

Somebody well known has said, "the danger in cutting costs is you're left with no value" - and that applies to the WRC.

[WRCStan]

As i said before, manufacturers coming has nothing to do with the cost but everything with the cost/profit ratio.

Not everything, there is branding values too. Manufacturers don't see thrashing a fossil fuel car in a reckless way as their brand. Except Toyota GR and Hyundai N. Fine in Asia obviously but not Europe.

[seb_sh]

The point is that WRC can easily work as customer teams based series, if it's possible in much much more expensive WEC.

Sorry but you got it wrong if you think the WEC Hypercar teams are customers. A better word maybe would be partners but those operations are works operations that would not be there if the manufacturer wouldn't be there to drive the project. Such partnerships are common in sportscar racing going back a long time. Some examples are Audi (partnered with Joest, R8 was chassis built by Dallara, still it was a very works team), Toyota (not sure about now but when they came back in 2010's they partnered with ORECA to run the race team), Porsche (Manthey in the 2010s, now Penske) and the list could go on. Only Proton, JDC Miller, Jota and Action Express are LMDh customers as they bought the car and run it independently. As becher said WRC used to be the same in the 90s and 2000s with Mitsubishi (Ralliart), Subaru (Prodrive), Ford (MSport), Hyundai (MSD)

LMGT3 is different and is run in the spirit of all other amateur GT3 championships and mandate at least one amateur driver.

[seb_sh]

Not everything, there is branding values too. Manufacturers don't see thrashing a fossil fuel car in a reckless way as their brand. Except Toyota GR and Hyundai N. Fine in Asia obviously but not Europe.

I'm not sure this is valid, they have no problem going to the Dakar and WRC2... I think it's more to due with the WRC not being a good return for the costs.

[Kenneth]

I'm not saying that WEC Hypercars are customer, but that they are mostly run the same way as Toksport run Škoda cars, except Toyota and Peugeot, which are in-house works teams. And there are still few fully customer teams. Which I wrote in previous posts.

GT3 cars cost is very close to Rally1 cars and is fully customer class. It works because ACO were able to come with efficient way to keep costs down, which not only allows to run these cars on customer basis, but also it drew attention of bunch new (or returning) manufacturers. Idk who you think that "amateur driver" is, but if we used WRC analogy again, these are usually drivers without larger achievements, like let's say Munster or Pajari, or in few cases rich gentleman drivers. These are no drivers that are in the car for 5th time.

There is no reason why WRC would need fully in-house works teams like there are now. It can easily work on the similar basis as WEC. Manufacturers could field the cars through private teams like Toksport or Oreca or even make it mandatory to sell cars on customer basis for other private teams that would like to compete in WRC. Again, costs of GT3 racing isn't far from WRC and it's much more expensive than Rally2.

If FIA can effectively keep the costs down (again, WEC were able do to that), WRC could run largely on customer basis, same as it was possible in early 2000s.

[seb_sh]

I'm not saying that WEC Hypercars are customer, but that they are mostly run the same way as Toksport run Škoda cars, except Toyota and Peugeot, which are in-house works teams. And there are still few fully customer teams. Which I wrote in previous posts.

GT3 cars cost is very close to Rally1 cars and is fully customer class. It works because ACO were able to come with efficient way to keep costs down, which not only allows to run these cars on customer basis, but also it drew attention of bunch new (or returning) manufacturers. Idk who you think that "amateur driver" is, but if we used WRC analogy again, these are usually drivers without larger achievements, like let's say Munster or Pajari, or in few cases rich gentleman drivers. These are no drivers that are in the car for 5th time.

There is no reason why WRC would need fully in-house works teams like there are now. It can easily work on the similar basis as WEC. Manufacturers could field the cars through private teams like Toksport or Oreca or even make it mandatory to sell cars on customer basis for other private teams that would like to compete in WRC. Again, costs of GT3 racing isn't far from WRC and it's much more expensive than Rally2.

If FIA can effectively keep the costs down (again, WEC were able do to that), WRC could run largely on customer basis, same as it was possible in early 2000s.

Ok I think I understand your point better now but you did write customer teams... GT3 is not ACO's category, they just adopted it starting this year, GT3 was created by SRO. By amateur driver I mean Bronze driver, as I guess you know in Sportscars and GT racing all drivers are rated Platinum, Gold, Silver or Bronze, where Bronze are mostly gentlemen (and women) drivers or amateurs in the sense that they have a different job/income and race for fun, also there are some performance criteria, if you get fast you can get moved up to silver.

Coming back to the teams thing i don't think it's an issue, MSport is like that now, and Toyota kind of started like that with Makinen. I bet if a manufacturer went to Prodrive and said we want to go to WRC that could happen no problem.

[WRCStan]

I'm not sure this is valid, they have no problem going to the Dakar and WRC2... I think it's more to due with the WRC not being a good return for the costs.

What's a good return?

WRC2, Dakar... invisible to the vast majority... which European manufacturers are there officially and for branding purposes?

[seb_sh]

What's a good return?

WRC2, Dakar... invisible to the vast majority... which European manufacturers are there officially and for branding purposes?

Exposure / money spent. I guess you can compare the viewership and online impressions you get for WRC with other sports and decide where you want to spend your money.

In Dakar there's Audi and Mini, besides non-europeans Toyota and Ford, plus Dacia recently announced they are joining and hired Loeb and Al-Attiyah.

I suppose you know who is in WRC2. If they wanted to avoid that image as you say why would they be there at all? That rationale makes no sense if you look a bit outside the box of WRC.

[becher]

The reason manufacturer interest in GT3 is so high is, is because it's a buisness case. They make money selling customer cars and get exposure by the odd faux works team or factory driver in one of their customers cars. It's the same as Rally2. Once you push that customer centered product to far up the food chain, manufacturers start to go crazy and the privateers start dying due to cost. Once the customers are gone the manufacturers loose their business case and leave. Just moving to a customer supported format is not valid solution to fix the current problems in rallying in my opinion.

[WRCStan]

Exposure / money spent. I guess you can compare the viewership and online impressions you get for WRC with other sports and decide where you want to spend your money.

Why restrict it to sport if you're selling cars? If it was 1% the cost would you advertise on Putin's forehead for global exposure? No.


In Dakar there's Audi and Mini, besides non-europeans Toyota and Ford, plus Dacia recently announced they are joining and hired Loeb and Al-Attiyah.

Audi are at least electric. Mini and Dacia are in through a team. I don't think imagery of unrecognisable spaceships in a desert landscape matters to them as much as cars that look a little like things we can actually buy on roads we can drive on, as Europeans. But more importantly, there's no big brand promotion, same as Skoda and Citroen in WRC2. They're mainly there only for the function of selling the cars that go rallying, not consumer road cars.

[seb_sh]

Why restrict it to sport if you're selling cars? If it was 1% the cost would you advertise on Putin's forehead for global exposure? No.



Audi are at least electric. Mini and Dacia are in through a team. I don't think imagery of unrecognisable spaceships in a desert landscape matters to them as much as cars that look a little like things we can actually buy on roads we can drive on, as Europeans. But more importantly, there's no big brand promotion, same as Skoda and Citroen in WRC2. They're mainly there only for the function of selling the cars that go rallying, not consumer road cars.

Dacia will be full works supported, branding and whatever you want, but Prodrive will build and run the cars.

Maybe that kind of proves the point of what other people are saying that maybe the WRC needs to re evaluate what they want to be and maybe full works teams is not the way forward.

There are various opinions and examples in this thread and I think no one is fully right or wrong. Some are pointing to examples where the customer model works, on the other hand becher tells about TCR where WTCR failed but he is a bit wrong because the category itself is quite ok with a ton of national and regional series with decent grids, but he is also right because if that same scenario happens for rally then WRC dies and we just have ERC and national series. But it could also end up like GT3 where it's everywhere and doing well.

As I said before, we are getting lost in the details. Taking just one element to "fix" things will not work. Instead someone has to see the whole picture, and importantly talk to manufacturers and then decide on a plan and vision for the sport moving forward. That's why I previously gave Ratel as an example, he knew the competitors, he knew the customers, he knew the manufacturers, he knew the audience and he knew the lessons and made something quite successful.

[WRCStan]

All opinions and examples are very welcome. I don't mind the details or one element at a time, I'm here to learn, build and rebuild my opinion as new information arises. This subject isn't being wrapped up for years.

Ratel, might have fixed the championship but there wasn't underlying concerns with the discipline of circuit racing. Sounds like organisation control rather than having vision of what competitors do when they arrive. I think that'll be in the conversations the rally working group will be having.

I might be wrong on Dacia, I just don't get it and won't until it happens. It just screams of a repeat of Mini in WRC. If W2RC shifts rules to volume production association something is definitely up.

[denkimi]

Why restrict it to sport if you're selling cars? If it was 1% the cost would you advertise on Putin's forehead for global exposure? No.
I think a lot of people would like to advertise on putin's head. There is a whole world outside of europe and the usa that doesn't see russia as their eternal enemy. If you want to attract 3th world customers, putin would be a good advertisement platform.

For the wrc it is kinda the same. Why change the sport to cater to people who don't watch it and will hate it anyway, whatever you do. Going electric and chasing away most of the petrolheads that make up your fans, will not make the green fundamentalists into your new fans.

[rallyfiend]

I think a lot of people would like to advertise on putin's head. There is a whole world outside of europe and the usa that doesn't see russia as their eternal enemy. If you want to attract 3th world customers, putin would be a good advertisement platform.

For the wrc it is kinda the same. Why change the sport to cater to people who don't watch it and will hate it anyway, whatever you do. Going electric and chasing away most of the petrolheads that make up your fans, will not make the green fundamentalists into your new fans.

Electric motorsport does not seem to be the path forward.

Formula E has struggled to become anything other than a business platform. It's fanbase is limited and it's really struggling. It must have the most volatile calendar world motorsport has ever seen. It seems to burn every location it goes to because no one cares.

Extreme E is a fringe motorsport at BEST. EVen the top motorsport publications don't even report on it.

ETCR folded like a deck of cards, and took the unborn E-GT series with it....

[wyler]

Electric motorsport does not seem to be the path forward.

Formula E has struggled to become anything other than a business platform. It's fanbase is limited and it's really struggling. It must have the most volatile calendar world motorsport has ever seen. It seems to burn every location it goes to because no one cares.

Extreme E is a fringe motorsport at BEST. EVen the top motorsport publications don't even report on it.

ETCR folded like a deck of cards, and took the unborn E-GT series with it....

on the other side, a motorsport with a big generic and not really competent fanbase (mostly because of fan service/audience building -like netflix show-) introduced hybrid and changes regulation at will with not much fuss.

[Rallyper]

Going back to WRC2 as mainclass is not by far as big step they had to take in 1986 to 1987. From Group B to Group A. Big change of the material.

And absolutely no affect on fanbase.

So louder Rally2 and maybe +50 hp. cars would make a perfect combination for WRC.

[WRCStan]

Electric motorsport does not seem to be the path forward.

Surely electric motorsport must have its own path forward? Aping traditional motorsport is doing it no favours.

E-GT is just retarded. FIA need to rewrite Appendix J too with some modern definitions of cars.

[HKSjbg]

Going back to WRC2 as mainclass is not by far as big step they had to take in 1986 to 1987. From Group B to Group A. Big change of the material.

And absolutely no affect on fanbase.

So louder Rally2 and maybe +50 hp. cars would make a perfect combination for WRC.

I completely disagree that more power will make Rally2 instantly more interesting. They are already pushing 300bhp which should be more than enough. The issue (if any is perceived) with current rally cars, and has been for some years, is the suspension travel (and possibly the advancement of sophisticated suspension geometry?) which makes the cars more 'planted'. i.e. the tyre is spending more time in contact with the road surface, therefore less time that the car is sliding or the driver has to do something more aggressive to get the best out of the car.

I've also read on other forums this notion of the tyres 'have too much grip, they need less grippy tyres'. Again, I don't buy into this. Surely shit tyres will just cause the cars to handle like pigs and just understeer? I also wonder how much effect the diffs have to play in this. There have been discussions on this forum over the years of certain regulations stipulating 'no centre diff'. To me this is engineering nonsense - 'no centre diff' means no four-wheel-drive. It's either locked 1:1 ratio (no way that is what is being used without dreadful tyre wear and horrible handling characteristics), open (what I suspect is truly meant by 'no centre diff'), limited-slip (torque-sensing, viscous etc.), or electronically controlled 'active diff'. I know that even Rally2s have LSDs (correct me if I'm wrong), but not in the centre?

To me, the perfect 'Rally2+' would be:


No change in bodywork/spoilers - not necessary unless you want to appeal to 10-year old boys

0.5mm increase in restrictor size - only to appease those who say they should have more power, not too much as to increase stresses and service costs/reduce service intervals. Again correct me if I'm wrongly assuming this will not still cause the problems noted. Rally2 would need to be downgraded by 0.5mm to keep that gap.

Reduced suspension travel - this would need to be carefully researched to find out what the sweet spot is to stop the cars appearing to be glued to the road then stipulated in regulations, same would have to be for downgraded Rally2s.

Non-active, LSD centre-diffs - this is not new and expensive technology, my perception is it will increase on-throttle adjustability in slippery circumstances. Again, correct me if I'm way off here.

6-speed gearboxes - why were 5-speed boxes introduced in the first place? I heard George Donaldson (99% sure it was him) on a podcast ask that same question, it seems to have been made to no positive affect at all. Surely having more gears gets the best out of your engine anyway? Sequential actuation also is the least road-relevant method of changing gears, just go back to paddle shifters, these boxes were proven and reliable for a long time in the previous two generations of 1.6L World Rally Cars. For Rally2 I'd love to see H-pattern (still relevant in sports cars today) make a return, but this is just a pipe dream. It would at least be another performance differentiator between Rally2 and Rally1/Rally2+.



I know a lot of this is never going to happen - I think if Rally2+ did become a thing perhaps the best compromise would be go back to 6-speed gearboxes and a modest increase in power i.e. 1mm difference between restrictor sizes. I'm sure there would also be arguments of 'you can't downgrade the spec of Rally2s, there's too much of them out there on the market', but the same thing happened in the mid-90s with the downgrade in size of turbo restrictors on Group A8 cars. If you wanted to enter an international rally in an A8 car you had to comply, old spec cars could still be used in national rallies if the local ASN deemed so.

[Mirek]

There have been discussions on this forum over the years of certain regulations stipulating 'no centre diff'. To me this is engineering nonsense - 'no centre diff' means no four-wheel-drive. It's either locked 1:1 ratio (no way that is what is being used without dreadful tyre wear and horrible handling characteristics), open (what I suspect is truly meant by 'no centre diff'), limited-slip (torque-sensing, viscous etc.), or electronically controlled 'active diff'. I know that even Rally2s have LSDs (correct me if I'm wrong), but not in the centre?

Man, where have you been in past two decades? 90% of all 4WD rally cars produced since 2007 (first one to be Peugeot 207 S2000) have had no center differential. Most of S2000, all R5, all Rally2, all RRC, all WRC 2011. And yes, they do use 1:1 torque split for all the time except when they pull the handbrake for which there is a release clutch.


To me, the perfect 'Rally2+' would be:

[LIST]
0.5mm increase in restrictor size - only to appease those who say they should have more power, not too much as to increase stresses and service costs/reduce service intervals. Again correct me if I'm wrongly assuming this will not still cause the problems noted. Rally2 would need to be downgraded by 0.5mm to keep that gap.

0,5 mm will add roughly 3% of power. Completely useless modification which nobody will notice. It's just an extra cost with zero benefit.


Reduced suspension travel - this would need to be carefully researched to find out what the sweet spot is to stop the cars appearing to be glued to the road then stipulated in regulations, same would have to be for downgraded Rally2s.

The suspension travel is also a major safety feature. Why do you think we have had by far most deadly accidents with 4WD gr.N cars?


Non-active, LSD centre-diffs - this is not new and expensive technology, my perception is it will increase on-throttle adjustability in slippery circumstances. Again, correct me if I'm way off here.

Welcome to 2005 and the initial S2000 regulations. Do you know what the clever heads in Peugeot found back then and what other teams immediately copied? They found that the mechanical central LSD brings close to zero benefits in handling over having no center diff at all and only consumes power via friction. Nearly all following S2000 cars had no center diff. The R5, Rally2, RRC and WRC 2011 followed suit. The center diff returned only when the active one was allowed again in 2017.


6-speed gearboxes - why were 5-speed boxes introduced in the first place? I heard George Donaldson (99% sure it was him) on a podcast ask that same question, it seems to have been made to no positive affect at all. Surely having more gears gets the best out of your engine anyway? Sequential actuation also is the least road-relevant method of changing gears, just go back to paddle shifters, these boxes were proven and reliable for a long time in the previous two generations of 1.6L World Rally Cars. For Rally2 I'd love to see H-pattern (still relevant in sports cars today) make a return, but this is just a pipe dream. It would at least be another performance differentiator between Rally2 and Rally1/Rally2+.

Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about. Let's start with an explanation what sequential gearbox means. As the name suggests with such gearbox the gears can be changed only one by one in a sequence. It doesn't matter if you do that by paddles or by a stick, by hydraulics, electrics, pneumatics or steel wires.

Six gears over five. First let me tell you that all WRC cars (with the only exception probably being the 2011 ones) have so wide power band that even 5-speed gearbox is enough to keep you driving in the ideal rpms. More gears mean more mass, more innertia, more parts, more complexity, higher price. The 2.0 WRC cars with super high turbo boost could use even 4-speed gearbox (and P307 actually did). The reason for using more gears in a WRC cars is basically only reliability because the steps from one gear to another are smaller and the gear shifting is therefore smoother. Anyway there are no mechanical problems with the current 5-speed geaboxes, so why going for 6-speed? For spectators such change don't matter, far majority of them won't notice anything.

[HKSjbg]

Mirek, try not to get so offended that someone other than you does not know what you know and is merely putting out suggestions. This is after all meant to be a friendly exchange of ideas between like-minded motorsport fans, nothing serious. We are not the FIA working group so anything discussed here has no bearing on it at all.

I do however appreciate the knowledge you have shared here, it is all interesting information to find out.


Man, where have you been in past two decades? 90% of all 4WD rally cars produced since 2007 (first one to be Peugeot 207 S2000) have had no center differential. Most of S2000, all R5, all Rally2, all RRC, all WRC 2011. And yes, they do use 1:1 torque split for all the time except when they pull the handbrake for which there is a release clutch.

I genuinely find this bizarre to get my head round, but also fascinating info to find out. My understanding of a locked diff (sorry, it’s still a diff if it’s splitting torque) is that when turning corners the front/rear speed difference, as well as the left/right speed difference of the wheels would create unwanted slippage to the point of wheels ‘skipping’. It’s been a long time since my university days learning about powertrains and I wasn’t paying much attention back then clearly!


0,5 mm will add roughly 3% of power. Completely useless modification which nobody will notice. It's just an extra cost with zero benefit.

Best to just leave it be as I thought then, I don’t even have an issue with outright speed of Rally2s anyway.


The suspension travel is also a major safety feature. Why do you think we have had by far most deadly accidents with 4WD gr.N cars?

You assume that it is common knowledge that most deadly rally accidents are by 4WD Group N cars? I would like to see evidence of this being the case and the reason for it.


Welcome to 2005 and the initial S2000 regulations. Do you know what the clever heads in Peugeot found back then and what other teams immediately copied? They found that the mechanical central LSD brings close to zero benefits in handling over having no center diff at all and only consumes power via friction. Nearly all following S2000 cars had no center diff. The R5, Rally2, RRC and WRC 2011 followed suit. The center diff returned only when the active one was allowed again in 2017.

Funnily enough I’ve never worked at Peugeot Sport so no, I didn’t know this. Again it’s fascinating to find out that info, not widely available or reported to my knowledge.


Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about. Let's start with an explanation what sequential gearbox means. As the name suggests with such gearbox the gears can be changed only one by one in a sequence. It doesn't matter if you do that by paddles or by a stick, by hydraulics, electrics, pneumatics or steel wires.

Never said I did. Never claimed to be an expert. And yes I know what a sequential gearbox means, colloquially a stick operated sequential gearbox is referred to as a sequential gearbox and a paddle operated sequential gearbox referred to as a paddle shift - even though a paddle shift may also refer to an epicyclic gearbox or some form of automated manual gearbox with paddle shifters. But don’t let that stop you from getting up on your high-horse.


Six gears over five. First let me tell you that all WRC cars (with the only exception probably being the 2011 ones) have so wide power band that even 5-speed gearbox is enough to keep you driving in the ideal rpms. More gears mean more mass, more innertia, more parts, more complexity, higher price. The 2.0 WRC cars with super high turbo boost could use even 4-speed gearbox (and P307 actually did). The reason for using more gears in a WRC cars is basically only reliability because the steps from one gear to another are smaller and the gear shifting is therefore smoother. Anyway there are no mechanical problems with the current 5-speed geaboxes, so why going for 6-speed? For spectators such change don't matter, far majority of them won't notice anything.

With exception of the 2011 ones? So surely the Rally2s also don’t have a big enough power band for 5-speed? The 307 was the ONLY one to make use of a 4-speed box and its fair to say that didn’t turn out well.

[typhoon]

If WRC wants to attract more people it needs a better story.

Spot on!

So to conclude, in my opinion there really first needs to be some fundamental things decided before you go into details. The important thing is to capture the essence of rally and preserve that and then find a format and presentation that works for a larger audience.

When Red Bull took over the series, they invested a lot of efforts to tell an "epic story" and it worked very well, since they got a global TV distribution which was impressive, compared to today's figures. Just remember how Tanak's dive into the Mexican lake got viral basically everywhere!!

Now, you can tell everyone how funny and entertaining Serderidis is in the service park, but no one is going to listen to it. We desperately need to bring back the early '00 "duels" and to do so you need similar, more affordable cars that will give the chance to have 4-cars works teams that will bring lots of young and expert drivers, all hungry for victory.

Imagine having Tanak, Rovanpera, Oliver Solberg, Neuville, Mikkelsen, Katsuta, Solans, Kajetanovic, etc.... all battling for the top-spot until the last stage with similar cars! It would mean a lot of drama, plot-twists on TV, some smile and everyone showing their character. It would be epic and super-interesting for the broadcasters.

But, again, everyone is talking about points, more expensive cars, etc.

You know what? Without a story well "sold" by the WRC Promoter (which right now I have to say is doing quite a poor job on all POV to say the least), you can even bring back Group B cars with Ari Vatanen and Michele Mouton and nobody would care anyway.

[wyler]

When Red Bull took over the series, they invested a lot of efforts to tell an "epic story" and it worked very well, since they got a global TV distribution which was impressive, compared to today's figures. Just remember how Tanak's dive into the Mexican lake got viral basically everywhere!!

Now, you can tell everyone how funny and entertaining Serderidis is in the service park, but no one is going to listen to it. We desperately need to bring back the early '00 "duels" and to do so you need similar, more affordable cars that will give the chance to have 4-cars works teams that will bring lots of young and expert drivers, all hungry for victory.

Imagine having Tanak, Rovanpera, Oliver Solberg, Neuville, Mikkelsen, Katsuta, Solans, Kajetanovic, etc.... all battling for the top-spot until the last stage with similar cars! It would mean a lot of drama, plot-twists on TV, some smile and everyone showing their character. It would be epic and super-interesting for the broadcasters.

But, again, everyone is talking about points, more expensive cars, etc.

You know what? Without a story well "sold" by the WRC Promoter (which right now I have to say is doing quite a poor job on all POV to say the least), you can even bring back Group B cars with Ari Vatanen and Michele Mouton and nobody would care anyway.

agreed. the only thing i cannot really get is how a more affordable car will make tanak and solans or kjetanovic on the same level.
can't see how the suggested "rally2+" will make the new category more competitive...i think the same 5 people will battle for the win.

[typhoon]

agreed. the only thing i cannot really get is how a more affordable car will make tanak and solans or kjetanovic on the same level.
can't see how the suggested "rally2+" will make the new category more competitive...i think the same 5 people will battle for the win.

Basically you can have the top-5 as always battling for the win, but having closer battles for a podium finish or points. This would be drama all around.

[wyler]

Basically you can have the top-5 as always battling for the win, but having closer battles for a podium finish or points. This would be drama all around.

i don't buy it. i think it's more a hope than a real possibility. the ten "rally1 orbit" drivers will stay on the top ten basically, a couple of replacements maybe, 'cause a skoda driver will beat munster, other than that i really don't see drivers outside rally1 orbit competing for podiums but would be glad to be proven wrong.

[Rallyper]

However, no matter the details (and I think Mirek explained it well) consesus still might be that Rally2(+) cars very well indeed could be the new WRC era.

Benefits:
Better competition
More teams
More top drivers
Lower costs
Same excitement

[WRCStan]

However, no matter the details (and I think Mirek explained it well) consesus still might be that Rally2(+) cars very well indeed could be the new WRC era.

:crazy:

Yeah, if you just skip over the details that it's already been ruled out by the current manufacturers, no new manufacturers have asked for it, and carbon ICE without hybrid has been ruled out by the FIA; it could just be the future.

[seb_sh]

:crazy:

Yeah, if you just skip over the details that it's already been ruled out by the current manufacturers, no new manufacturers have asked for it, and carbon ICE without hybrid has been ruled out by the FIA; it could just be the future.

I think he was referring to the actual technical details of the Rally2+ or whatever. Even so what you say is right but what if MSport finally runs out of money and Hyundai decides they'd rather build a hydrogen powered Le Mans car, does Toyota build 6 cars, paint 3 blue and say it's Toyota vs Subaru WRC?

[denkimi]

No matter the type of cars, privateers will never have an equal chance against the manufacturer backed. The difference may not be very big, but there will always be a difference due to budgets.

[Walach]

I think he was referring to the actual technical details of the Rally2+ or whatever. Even so what you say is right but what if MSport finally runs out of money and Hyundai decides they'd rather build a hydrogen powered Le Mans car, does Toyota build 6 cars, paint 3 blue and say it's Toyota vs Subaru WRC?

Maybe then will FIA & promoter finally start making some proper changes instead of creating working groups & pissing around with points system while patting themselves on the back

[macebig]

True, but you absolutely need to give them a chance. They have no chance now and that has been the case since 2017 with a few exceptions (Loubet 2021 and Ostberg 2017).

[WRCStan]

what if MSport finally runs out of money and Hyundai decides they'd rather build a hydrogen powered Le Mans car, does Toyota build 6 cars, paint 3 blue and say it's Toyota vs Subaru WRC?

Unless an alternative to M-Sport can be found, and the Promoter/series hadn't gone bust which led to M-Sport withdrawal, then yes. This isn't my desired future, it's what would/could happen playing if with other current known knows.

FIA could ignore/renege on it's own rules. Maybe MBS asked DE to write that slamming piece about Rally2 should be top class as part of such a uturn, or maybe DE is just delusional. Maybe Rally1, or even life itself, is too expensive for the Promoter and FIA have to step in as emergency promoter, possibly then all rules go out the window. But we're talking long term planning not short term fix for disaster planning.

Imo Hyundai are going anyway. 10 years already is a long stint. M-Sport, Toyota, Subaru sounds pretty doable.

[WRCStan]

Maybe then will FIA & promoter finally start making some proper changes instead of creating working groups & pissing around with points system while patting themselves on the back

Let them sit down together at least so they can agree on some changes?

[WRCStan]

True, but you absolutely need to give them a chance. They have no chance now and that has been the case since 2017 with a few exceptions (Loubet 2021 and Ostberg 2017).

You say that like it's a problem. ;)

[Eli]

Going back to WRC2 as mainclass is not by far as big step they had to take in 1986 to 1987. From Group B to Group A. Big change of the material.

And absolutely no affect on fanbase.

So louder Rally2 and maybe +50 hp. cars would make a perfect combination for WRC.

So that would bring us back (basically) to 2011. Maybe with less aero.

[macebig]

You say that like it's a problem. ;)

It definitely is. You need privateers/young talents/local stars to be able to take the big guys. It has been a staple of WRC for decades. Losing it, is hurting the sport big time.

[lmmjvss]

the point someone made about having "stories to tell" was spot on. My favorite rally season EVER was the 2019 ERC season, with Ingram winning the title and 2020 with Solberg vs Lukyanuk. Such great characters, so many awesome one-off entries WINNING the races (especially 2019, where basically ALL the races were won by these one-offs).
THAT was fun to watch, and Eurosport had those 45 min highlights of the weekend. THAT was perfect... Rally2s only... almost SKODAS only tbh haha

[typhoon]

Just look at what Red Bull was doing when they took over the championship commercial rights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2WGddzQoXw

This small story screams a "Drive to Survive" episode and can be sold to every Average Joe around the world and bring you a lot of popularity. Nothing compared to the 2 minutes videos uploaded in 2023, which honestly nobody care about.

Just working on "telling the story" it would already help A LOT the whole championship for its survival. Having more close competition with lower budgets, this would bring the whole WRC to the old glory days. Hopefully the right decisions will be made soon by the Working Group!

[Rallyper]

:crazy:

Yeah, if you just skip over the details that it's already been ruled out by the current manufacturers, no new manufacturers have asked for it, and carbon ICE without hybrid has been ruled out by the FIA; it could just be the future.

Well, I meant details on this forum. Rally2 manufacturers could decide details better than us (except from reading our wishes...)

[denkimi]

does Toyota build 6 cars, paint 3 blue and say it's Toyota vs Subaru WRC?
Having all the best drivers in equal cars doesn't sound like a bad thing to me. If they could run another 14 of the same that would be even better.

[drive]

how would equal cars would be achieved? never... its a nice dream that everybody drives an equal cars, but teams wants to win, so... ok, on tv or on photo would look better: 'same class cars and many drivers' - but in the forest it would be the same - top 5 or 6 fast guys, and after that spectacle others would look slow and boring... now at least we have wrc spectacular cars, then few nice drives with Rally2 cars... and the rest is boring to watch real....

[rallyfiend]

Anyone who thinks that any drivers other than the current top 6 or 7 would ever have a chance to get close to these top guys even if they were all competing in 'equal' Rally2 equipment is absolutely deluded.

You can change the class of cars, these guys would still wipe the floor with them.

[skarderud]

how would equal cars would be achieved? never... its a nice dream that everybody drives an equal cars, but teams wants to win, so... ok, on tv or on photo would look better: 'same class cars and many drivers' - but in the forest it would be the same - top 5 or 6 fast guys, and after that spectacle others would look slow and boring... now at least we have wrc spectacular cars, then few nice drives with Rally2 cars... and the rest is boring to watch real....The Rally2's wont look boring if you don't have the Rally1's before them.
Every car driven at full send is entertaining to watch, even an Rally5.
Cars driven at 50% is not, even a Rally1.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[skarderud]

Anyone who thinks that any drivers other than the current top 6 or 7 would ever have a chance to get close to these top guys even if they were all competing in 'equal' Rally2 equipment is absolutely deluded.

You can change the class of cars, these guys would still wipe the floor with them.Absolutely! Every country have some local heroes that can blend in. Of course hard for them to win, but can make a lot of exitement and enthusiasm! And that is something we need!
In the 90's, if was always some local heros mixing in, in the "dull" Gr.A cars that some local tuners managed too made competitive. Combined with local knowledge and familiar to the roads of course.

I want this back, maybe not possible, but why not?

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[seb_sh]

Anyone who thinks that any drivers other than the current top 6 or 7 would ever have a chance to get close to these top guys even if they were all competing in 'equal' Rally2 equipment is absolutely deluded.

You can change the class of cars, these guys would still wipe the floor with them.

I'm responding to you but it's really to the idea that you and others have written, and asking some honest questions.

For me that's not the main point, the main point is to give new drivers a chance to learn the machinery. Remember guys like Makinen, Gronholm, Hirvonen, even Loeb and Ogier and many others got a chance to drive a top tier car as a privateer or sponsored or occasional entry as a non nominated car to get noticed or get a chance to learn. Neuville was sponsored to drive in a 2nd "private" Ford team and finished 2nd in the championship before he went to Hyundai. How many new drivers are we getting recently, especially with the complicated hybrids? Only MSport is doing this because they have no choice...

If there are no privateers or "extra cars", how will we get multiple top drivers in the future? Will we pull them out of the pocket? I get that the idea is to have a small elite category with Rally1 but is that healthy medium to long term? If Rovanpera comes back pumped up and Tanak retires and we get 2-7 years of domination will that be fun to watch? I think whoever is running the show is trying to force a product by gimmicks like the points system instead of building something from the foundation. Maybe it's not for me and I watch too much rally for my own good but I'm a bit cynical at the moment.

[macebig]

Exactly. Kale and Tanak are only here because Hari and Markko Martin were able to rent a top class car and prove themselves. And that's only a recent example.

[Jarek Z]

Anyone who thinks that any drivers other than the current top 6 or 7 would ever have a chance to get close to these top guys even if they were all competing in 'equal' Rally2 equipment is absolutely deluded.

You can change the class of cars, these guys would still wipe the floor with them.

No.

It's like saying in 1993 that Makinen and Gronholm would never have a chance to get close to the top guys, because Kankkunen, Auriol and Sainz would always wipe the floor with them.

But in mid nineties Makinen and Gronholm had a chance to drive similar cars as the top guys, after 2-3 years they caught up with them and then topped them.

[Jarek Z]

Absolutely! Every country have some local heroes that can blend in. Of course hard for them to win, but can make a lot of exitement and enthusiasm! And that is something we need!
In the 90's, if was always some local heros mixing in, in the "dull" Gr.A cars that some local tuners managed too made competitive. Combined with local knowledge and familiar to the roads of course.

Exactly. Mats Jonsson, Gianfranco Cunico, Jesus Puras, Philippe Bugalski are just some examples of this.

[WRCStan]

I want this back, maybe not possible, but why not?

What kind of Group A suitable cars are the residents of lillehammer buying?

[WRCStan]

I think whoever is running the show is trying to force a product by gimmicks like the points system instead of building something from the foundation.

Do you have anything in mind other than car regs, affordability and accessibility?

I have no idea on your main point, expanded FIA Rally Star program seems probable though.

[drive]

The Rally2's wont look boring if you don't have the Rally1's before them.

NO, look at your local championship.... after few cars you want to go to another place...

only top drivers makes spectacle - now at least we have wrc, then wrc2... as proposed we could have again 'few factory' R5+ and the rest... you have an illusion that local guy with standard WRC2 could challenge Rovanpera, Neuville, Tanak? ok, good dreams :) but local guys will look boring after the top drivers, that for sure... now at least they looks good after WRC cars....

[drive]

I'm visiting around 7-8 wrc events every year, so in my opinion from watching real: yes, not enough WRC1 cars, but please dont cancel wrc1...

when action starts, WRC1 cars makes so huge magic impression that leaves your breathless ... 6-7-8-9-10 whatever...
then WRC2 cars - top 4-10 drivers drives very nice, different cars, different effect, still nice to watch ...
and the rest - after top wrc and wrc2 - no bother...

so now proposal is to watch same top drivers driving wrc2+.... OK.. and after wrc2+ all other wrc2 will look booooooring.... as cars will look the same... but effect will be so bad... and we wont have 'magic' what nowdays WRC cars makes? no thank you, sorry...

[RS]

It doesn't matter how much people like to watch them, Rally1 regulations were introduced to attract new manufacturers and it hasn't happened. They've been an expensive failure.

I'd even go as far to say that they've made the situation worse as it seems to have been harder for M-Sport to keep up with the full works outfits under these regulations.

[skarderud]

NO, look at your local championship.... after few cars you want to go to another place...

only top drivers makes spectacle - now at least we have wrc, then wrc2... as proposed we could have again 'few factory' R5+ and the rest... you have an illusion that local guy with standard WRC2 could challenge Rovanpera, Neuville, Tanak? ok, good dreams :) but local guys will look boring after the top drivers, that for sure... now at least they looks good after WRC cars....No, i don't go after the first cars. I'm a rallyfan, not a tiktok-prostitute.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[skarderud]

I'm visiting around 7-8 wrc events every year, so in my opinion from watching real: yes, not enough WRC1 cars, but please dont cancel wrc1...

when action starts, WRC1 cars makes so huge magic impression that leaves your breathless ... 6-7-8-9-10 whatever...
then WRC2 cars - top 4-10 drivers drives very nice, different cars, different effect, still nice to watch ...
and the rest - after top wrc and wrc2 - no bother...

so now proposal is to watch same top drivers driving wrc2+.... OK.. and after wrc2+ all other wrc2 will look booooooring.... as cars will look the same... but effect will be so bad... and we wont have 'magic' what nowdays WRC cars makes? no thank you, sorry...No, you have wrong.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[skarderud]

What kind of Group A suitable cars are the residents of lillehammer buying?Yaris GR, but the "new" Gr.A is the R5.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[rallyfiend]

It doesn't matter how much people like to watch them, Rally1 regulations were introduced to attract new manufacturers and it hasn't happened. They've been an expensive failure.

I'd even go as far to say that they've made the situation worse as it seems to have been harder for M-Sport to keep up with the full works outfits under these regulations.

Whilst for sure all regulations have the hope to create interest from new manufacturers, I'm also certain these Rally1 Regulations were created to KEEP the current 3 involved.

I'm sure I've heard Malcolm / Millener say on a number of occasions, that without these regulations Ford would already be gone.

[AMSS]

I'm visiting around 7-8 wrc events every year, so in my opinion from watching real: yes, not enough WRC1 cars, but please dont cancel wrc1...

when action starts, WRC1 cars makes so huge magic impression that leaves your breathless ... 6-7-8-9-10 whatever...
then WRC2 cars - top 4-10 drivers drives very nice, different cars, different effect, still nice to watch ...
and the rest - after top wrc and wrc2 - no bother...

so now proposal is to watch same top drivers driving wrc2+.... OK.. and after wrc2+ all other wrc2 will look booooooring.... as cars will look the same... but effect will be so bad... and we wont have 'magic' what nowdays WRC cars makes? no thank you, sorry...

I have to agree with this, I can watch Rally 2 cars on national events but for the WRC I go almost only for the Rally 1 cars (same for the previous WRC cars) those cars are the wow factor for me

[seb_sh]

Do you have anything in mind other than car regs, affordability and accessibility?

I have no idea on your main point, expanded FIA Rally Star program seems probable though.

I see another issue with the "ladder" - in WRC2 the main rivals are rarely racing against each other. I'm sure there was some compromise that lead to this current format but I would question what is more important than having a true head to head competition in WRC2? It seems WRC2 is trying to be many things for many people.

The Rally Start program helps to widen the selection at lower levels and take some drivers until WRC2, but it stops before the last step up in the hope manufacturers will pick the drivers up. But then the last step is hard because there are few cars, in the past there were "junior" teams, extra cars, privateers funding partial programs, etc. Allowing non hybrid Rally1 cars was a good step for opening it up but it's probably not enough.

As for the regulations themselves maybe instead of "Rally2+" it's better to think of some kind of "Rally1-" something with similar excitement but more affordable.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It doesn't matter how much people like to watch them, Rally1 regulations were introduced to attract new manufacturers and it hasn't happened. They've been an expensive failure.

I'd even go as far to say that they've made the situation worse as it seems to have been harder for M-Sport to keep up with the full works outfits under these regulations.

This is true, Ford are only staying to promote their hybrid range.

But funnily Hyundai & Toyota aren't and dont even have 'Hybrid' on their livery as a. it's not their hybrid system and b. they're going full EV with their road cars.

Rally1 Hybrid has been a huge flop.

[wyler]

No, i don't go after the first cars. I'm a rallyfan, not a tiktok-prostitute.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

sorry but if i travel the world to see wrc ( like i do), i want to see the more top drivers i can. so i will definitely, even with a bit of sadness, sometimes, "sacrifice" rally2 & others for more rally1 time. i don't care in being a diehard fan. i spend the money to see the best in the world.

[WRCStan]

Yaris GR, but the "new" Gr.A is the R5.

OK I was expecting a variety. You picked the one car both bucking the trend and already heavily committed to rally.

R5/Rally2 is ~12 years old already, can make sense short term but cannot be sustained to, say 2030. 6 years away.

[WRCStan]

Whilst for sure all regulations have the hope to create interest from new manufacturers, I'm also certain these Rally1 Regulations were created to KEEP the current 3 involved.

I'm sure I've heard Malcolm / Millener say on a number of occasions, that without these regulations Ford would already be gone.

You have to add in the FIA environment goals imposed on the championship which doesn't come from the rally dept. Team bosses can present reality any which way they want.

[WRCStan]

I see another issue with the "ladder" - in WRC2 the main rivals are rarely racing against each other. I'm sure there was some compromise that lead to this current format but I would question what is more important than having a true head to head competition in WRC2? It seems WRC2 is trying to be many things for many people.

One often suggested idea is if you pick 7 events, you are either creating a new championship or changing it to a cup, something they'd have to look into. I'm pretty sure there's boxticking that affects Rally1 and promoter obligations.


The Rally Start program helps to widen the selection at lower levels and take some drivers until WRC2, but it stops before the last step up in the hope manufacturers will pick the drivers up. But then the last step is hard because there are few cars, in the past there were "junior" teams, extra cars, privateers funding partial programs, etc. Allowing non hybrid Rally1 cars was a good step for opening it up but it's probably not enough.

We don't know for sure how much the promoter and FIA help the younger drivers who do make it now. I think the reality is teams, privateers etc are not welcome. Even Bertelli could not officially enter his 'own' car. I think that says it all. Manufacturers/Promoter/FIA should be entirely responsible for grooming talent for the series in this image as they built it, not relying on enthusiasm of others. Something else that isn't sustainable.

Non-hybrids are a non-starter in WRC.

[Mirek]

Mirek, try not to get so offended that someone other than you does not know what you know and is merely putting out suggestions. This is after all meant to be a friendly exchange of ideas between like-minded motorsport fans, nothing serious. We are not the FIA working group so anything discussed here has no bearing on it at all.

I do however appreciate the knowledge you have shared here, it is all interesting information to find out.



I genuinely find this bizarre to get my head round, but also fascinating info to find out. My understanding of a locked diff (sorry, it’s still a diff if it’s splitting torque) is that when turning corners the front/rear speed difference, as well as the left/right speed difference of the wheels would create unwanted slippage to the point of wheels ‘skipping’. It’s been a long time since my university days learning about powertrains and I wasn’t paying much attention back then clearly!



Best to just leave it be as I thought then, I don’t even have an issue with outright speed of Rally2s anyway.



You assume that it is common knowledge that most deadly rally accidents are by 4WD Group N cars? I would like to see evidence of this being the case and the reason for it.



Funnily enough I’ve never worked at Peugeot Sport so no, I didn’t know this. Again it’s fascinating to find out that info, not widely available or reported to my knowledge.



Never said I did. Never claimed to be an expert. And yes I know what a sequential gearbox means, colloquially a stick operated sequential gearbox is referred to as a sequential gearbox and a paddle operated sequential gearbox referred to as a paddle shift - even though a paddle shift may also refer to an epicyclic gearbox or some form of automated manual gearbox with paddle shifters. But don’t let that stop you from getting up on your high-horse.



With exception of the 2011 ones? So surely the Rally2s also don’t have a big enough power band for 5-speed? The 307 was the ONLY one to make use of a 4-speed box and its fair to say that didn’t turn out well.

Sorry for not answering earlier, I was on holidays and didn't read the forum. Also sorry for sounding too arrogant. My bad.


I genuinely find this bizarre to get my head round, but also fascinating info to find out. My understanding of a locked diff (sorry, it’s still a diff if it’s splitting torque) is that when turning corners the front/rear speed difference, as well as the left/right speed difference of the wheels would create unwanted slippage to the point of wheels ‘skipping’. It’s been a long time since my university days learning about powertrains and I wasn’t paying much attention back then clearly!

The cars do suffer a lot from understeering but they somehow managed to cope with it with suspension geometry and diff ramp angles. If you remember the 2011 WRC cars were being driven ridiculously sideways on the loose surface at their beginnings. The reason for that was the abscence of the center differential.


You assume that it is common knowledge that most deadly rally accidents are by 4WD Group N cars? I would like to see evidence of this being the case and the reason for it.

I don't have exact statiastics but when the gr.N 4WD cars were still a thing (unlike today) the far majority of tragic accidents happened with them. I can name a lot of them from my head but I don't think it is necessary. Only here in Czechia we had more than 10 dead from gr.N accidents (most of them spectators). In most cases the reason was the same - uncontrolled rebound of the powered rear axle which was caused mainly by too short suspension travel. Simply said bouncing cars are always spectacular but also always dangerous.

Several examples of the uncontrolled rear axle rebound after a short youtube search.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9WuVrd8so (this one ended tragically for one spectactor)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Ocf5KwVr0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SOeOa13ypo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gb0dmFdUAQ
https://youtu.be/9Wj-WX-h5B4?t=199 (not an accident but an extreme case of a gr.N car with very short rear axle travel, in this case the rear axle was not driven so it could not cause a spin)


With exception of the 2011 ones? So surely the Rally2s also don’t have a big enough power band for 5-speed?

No, I am sorry but it isn't that easy. 2011 WRC cars and R5/Rally2 cars have the same turbo boost but also different restrictor size and often also different bore/stroke ratio. The WRC cars had the peak power in higher RPM than the R5/Rally2 have because there was enough air for feeding the engine in high rews. The R5/Rally2 have relatively flatter power band because they run out of air quickly. Simply said from the peak power to the RPM limiter the power is relatively constant because it is limited by the restrictor and the R5/Rally2 achieve the peak power about 1000-2000 RPM earlier.


The 307 was the ONLY one to make use of a 4-speed box and its fair to say that didn’t turn out well.

It didn't go well in terms of reliability and I wrote about that. The problems had nothing to do with the performance.

[HKSjbg]

Sorry for not answering earlier, I was on holidays and didn't read the forum. Also sorry for sounding too arrogant. My bad.



The cars do suffer a lot from understeering but they somehow managed to cope with it with suspension geometry and diff ramp angles. If you remember the 2011 WRC cars were being driven ridiculously sideways on the loose surface at their beginnings. The reason for that was the abscence of the center differential.



I don't have exact statiastics but when the gr.N 4WD cars were still a thing (unlike today) the far majority of tragic accidents happened with them. I can name a lot of them from my head but I don't think it is necessary. Only here in Czechia we had more than 10 dead from gr.N accidents (most of them spectators). In most cases the reason was the same - uncontrolled rebound of the powered rear axle which was caused mainly by too short suspension travel. Simply said bouncing cars are always spectacular but also always dangerous.

Several examples of the uncontrolled rear axle rebound after a short youtube search.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9WuVrd8so (this one ended tragically for one spectactor)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Ocf5KwVr0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SOeOa13ypo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gb0dmFdUAQ
https://youtu.be/9Wj-WX-h5B4?t=199 (not an accident but an extreme case of a gr.N car with very short rear axle travel, in this case the rear axle was not driven so it could not cause a spin)



No, I am sorry but it isn't that easy. 2011 WRC cars and R5/Rally2 cars have the same turbo boost but also different restrictor size and often also different bore/stroke ratio. The WRC cars had the peak power in higher RPM than the R5/Rally2 have because there was enough air for feeding the engine in high rews. The R5/Rally2 have relatively flatter power band because they run out of air quickly. Simply said from the peak power to the RPM limiter the power is relatively constant because it is limited by the restrictor and the R5/Rally2 achieve the peak power about 1000-2000 RPM earlier.



It didn't go well in terms of reliability and I wrote about that. The problems had nothing to do with the performance.

Thank you for your response Mirek, and apologies for my abrupt reply as well. The only thing I have to add to that is I thought, aside from reliability, the Peugeot drivers thought the 4-speed box was a stupid idea and were waiting for the team to relent and switch back to 5? Anyway it’s beside the point…

More interesting reading on the 2011 WRC cars. I actually had a good look at the ‘boxes on display at the Sadev stand at Autosport International yesterday, but I didn’t have enough confidence in the engineering knowledge of the chaps manning that particular stall to ask any technical questions :p

[Rallyper]

+10 on those replies regarding tone of voice.

This is the level I want to see in all discussions, although I know I wasn´t best representative of it, years ago...
Nowadays I always try to be polite, but sometimes everyone risks to go wild after being provoked. Even so me.

But guys - this above is good example, I think.

[Sulland]

Could we see a concept like we had in the past with wrc and rrc cars that had clear similarities, but were different in power and aero?

WRC2+ with more aero and 1 or 2 mm larger restrictor.
With upgrade kits for teams that want to do their local WRC round, to battle with the best!

A concept like that would imo give more top class cars in most rounds, and a better show for us!

[WRCStan]

I recommend that specifics of restrictor sizes and locked differentials chat should go in main class in 2025 thread (https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?42305-WRC-main-class-in-2025), else there are two similar conversations going on.

The chat here should have the long term future in mind and the path to get there, not next season. It could be whether the top tier of WRC should be accessible to, or even aimed at privateers, instead of being the showbiz/entertainment class for manufacturers it currently is. Alternatively put, picture the World Championship in 2030s, what does Rally2+ for 2025 mean?

[Mirek]

Could we see a concept like we had in the past with wrc and rrc cars that had clear similarities, but were different in power and aero?

WRC2+ with more aero and 1 or 2 mm larger restrictor.
With upgrade kits for teams that want to do their local WRC round, to battle with the best!

A concept like that would imo give more top class cars in most rounds, and a better show for us!

The RRC was a total failure. There is no need to repeat the same mistakes.

[fiscorpun]

Idk where to write this, but I honeslty felt SOME effort in these two "bigger" videos on the wrc YouTube explaining wrc and talking about the season thats about to start. Read more than 5 comments (not much, of course) saying stuff like "Oh, im planning to start watching, this video did a great job explaininng it" or "its been years since I stopped watching, this video caught my attention again, super excited". Do we know if they changed the teams taking care of social media and "storytelling"? Or am I exagerating in this sudden burst of "okay, thats a start"?

[WRCStan]

Those comments look false to my cynical self. Gill Bates is on their telling us her Mum will start watching now she's learnt the basics. Er, OK. But if that's what was genuinely missing, then cool.

[typhoon]

Idk where to write this, but I honeslty felt SOME effort in these two "bigger" videos on the wrc YouTube explaining wrc and talking about the season thats about to start. Read more than 5 comments (not much, of course) saying stuff like "Oh, im planning to start watching, this video did a great job explaininng it" or "its been years since I stopped watching, this video caught my attention again, super excited". Do we know if they changed the teams taking care of social media and "storytelling"? Or am I exagerating in this sudden burst of "okay, thats a start"?

I am keeping a close look on their social media activities and I have to say there's definitely some new hands on it with simple-but-fresh ideas. Up until now it's something refreshing and needed to engage with "digital fans", as this would be extremely useful in terms of selling new merchandise and RallyTV subscriptions online. Having a powerful social media presence automatically improves a lot their lead generation (i.e.: "funnel" simple audience into something to sell) and thus the whole business.

I'm not expressing myself about their job yet, because I want to see how they "sell" their stories from Monte Carlo and check if they are able to do something that has a "viral potential" to penetrate YouTube's and Facebook's algorithms.

IMHO I'd push even more aggressively on free content, by upgrading the Shakedown broadcast to a "World Feed" standard (meaning the production level of a WRC stage sold to TV), as well as throwing some service park "studios" coverage to gather some more free stuff around and push the engagement of the viewers.

Let's see how it all develops in the coming weeks and events... fingers crossed!

[fiscorpun]

Well, this week they really indicated that there is a new team behind social media and promotion. Videos with more than just 2 minutes almost every day on YouTube, promoted clips on instagram and fb. Thats really good.If they manage to put out those 3day highlights compacted into one video on YouTube, that would help the sport A LOT, especially if they focus on "stories". Go back and watch the 23min highlights from last years WRC2 in Sweden, where they kinda followed Oliver and Petter Solberg. That was fenomenal imo. Really simple and it made the show really great. Interesting... Getting hopefull again after almost quitting wrc like I did with F1

[Jewy46]

A young Irish guy that I would have seen coming up through the ranks here, has taken on the job of social media manager of the WRC content I believe and by the looks of it doing a superb job already.

Great to see as it so important in the modern world for promotion.

Really enjoying the new content myself

[fiscorpun]

A young Irish guy that I would have seen coming up through the ranks here, has taken on the job of social media manager of the WRC content I believe and by the looks of it doing a superb job already.

Great to see as it so important in the modern world for promotion.

Really enjoying the new content myself

Really? Thats so cool! Is he here??

[Jewy46]

Really? Thats so cool! Is he here??

Sorry by "here" I mean Ireland :)

Very intelligent and nice guy though, glad to see him do well

[typhoon]

Probably there's still hope for the WRC! Good job to the guy, it was exactly what I was expecting. Seeing also the job done after some action it's just what's needed. Take the best of what happened and decorate it properly. The YT short with some raw sounds was very interesting, things like that has great potential to become viral. I'll check the stats compared to other similar contents to do some "analysis" (at least I practice what I studied lol).

[jcevc]

Looks like today we will see start of the last season with rally1 cars.
2025 rally2
2026 rally2+, the price of + will be limited and kit freely available on the market

As Dirtfish article stated, everything will be officially known or confirmed on next WMSC meeting at the end of Feb.

[fiscorpun]

WHAT? Cant find this article here mate! Wheere? I think its a good decision.

[jcevc]

The first part of my post is not related directly to dirtfish - they are not so specific in article, but the background is very similar.

My source told me that everything will be confirmed/agreed on next WMSC meet at the end of Feb - as stated also dirtfish.

[fiscorpun]

The first part of my post is not related directly to dirtfish - they are not so specific in article, but the background is very similar.

My source told me that everything will be confirmed/agreed on next WMSC meet at the end of Feb - as stated also dirtfish.

Yes.. yes! But in what article they mention that? Dirtfish would be with 34 articles on that already, since they were pushing it very hard haha

[TypeR]

Yes.. yes! But in what article they mention that? Dirtfish would be with 34 articles on that already, since they were pushing it very hard haha
Maybe from this one..
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-likely-is-rally2-to-take-over-the-wrc/


Much of the consulation will be completed by the end of this month, with the working group proposals heading for World Motor Sport Council consideration at the group’s virtual meeting on February 28.



Although I doubt that too much will be decided then :D

[fiscorpun]

AH, the way he said it looked like it was some confirmation.... Meh

[jcevc]

AH, the way he said it looked like it was some confirmation.... Meh

Please check inbox :)

[deephouse]

Looks like today we will see start of the last season with rally1 cars.
2025 rally2
2026 rally2+, the price of + will be limited and kit freely available on the market

As Dirtfish article stated, everything will be officially known or confirmed on next WMSC meeting at the end of Feb.

I think that Skoda and Citroen are preparing terrain, since they are really loud about their involvement this year. Well I hope. But I don't know why are Hyundai waiting with their WRC2 programme. Maybe they are undecided yet about continuing or left the sport. But one thing keeps getting in my head. They say they will have a new car for next year. Is it possible, they will develop completely new Rally2 (or Rally1), since they have some new people on board.

[seb_sh]

Well if it's true what was written in one of the DF articles, that the commision has a target of 25+ top class cars next year then the only realistic solution for that requirement in 2025 is Rally2.

[lmmjvss]

If thats true im honestly writting an email to the promoter (they normally answer) thanking them for listening to our worries. Both in wrc and worldrx. Rally1 cars are amazing, but its like in f1: Current f1 cars ARE NOT spetacular anymore... But our brains get used. Bring the rally2s

[WRCStan]

Looks like today we will see start of the last season with rally1 cars.
2025 rally2
2026 rally2+, the price of + will be limited and kit freely available on the market

As Dirtfish article stated, everything will be officially known or confirmed on next WMSC meeting at the end of Feb.

What about beyond the cars, heard anything? This was supposed to be about the relevancy of the whole sport.

[WRCStan]

If thats true im honestly writting an email to the promoter (they normally answer) thanking them for listening to our worries.

In all likelihoodness, if this passes it's because the number of willing manufacturers is expected to shrink not for what fans want.

[er88]

Rally 2 cars sound fucking dull. Give me a screaming s2000 from 15yrs ago, hearing it popping and banging miles away over a faster r5/rally2. Sound is such a huge part of the spectacle and wow factor in rallying. Always has been! S2000 cars proved you could create affordable cars that had the spectacle needed to attract fans to the stages & generate huge interest. So it can be done. After all, s2000 and the IRC nearly killed the WRC around 2009 - 11/12 period!

https://youtu.be/W2I5ZBQ8gho?si=M7okmvQwfXhpuZV-

[RS]

S2000 screamers were fun but realistically we're not going to go back to NA engines.

Rally2 cars don't have to sound dull, this one is nice and the Yaris with it's 3 cylinder thrum is interesting too:

https://youtu.be/8bpF6kGy-Pw?si=uhsTZaBcl8Wl38L_

[fiscorpun]

Do we know if thers a way (BoP, of course) to have a Hydrogen Yaris, Haiden Paddon's EV, Renault's Electric R5 3E and Vermont's Subarus racing with the same performance of the Rally2 cars? Cuz IMO that would be the ideal mix for a top class.

[WRCStan]

How does 25 cars fit into itineraries with all live?

At 3 minute intervals on gravel the 25th is starting 1hr15m after the 1st. Assuming all being covered is desired, with no crossover and WRC2 gets nothing, a typical loop could be 6 hours or more. Where's the shorter days then?

Or are some top class drivers not going to be top class in reality, thus not necessary to see?

[WRCStan]

Do we know if thers a way (BoP, of course) to have a Hydrogen Yaris, Haiden Paddon's EV, Renault's Electric R5 3E and Vermont's Subarus racing with the same performance of the Rally2 cars? Cuz IMO that would be the ideal mix for a top class.

Or any class. They could easily introduce it if they wanted, but it doesn't fit with commercial agreements. P1 fuels for instance. Edit: ...and logistics aside of course.

[Steve Boyd]

At 3 minute intervals on gravel the 25th is starting 1hr15m after the 1stI stopped watching the RAC Rally live when they went to 2 minute intervals because of the boredom waiting between cars. 3 minutes is pointless - they may as well make it 10 minutes and only have 3 stages a day for TV and ignore the live viewers.

[PLuto]

I stopped watching the RAC Rally live when they went to 2 minute intervals because of the boredom waiting between cars. 3 minutes is pointless - they may as well make it 10 minutes and only have 3 stages a day for TV and ignore the live viewers.

2-3 minutes is ok for live TV coverage, for spectators on site it is disaster...

[deephouse]

I'm a big supporter of reducing rallies. Saturday and sunday, if I'm specific. People these days don't have that much time of watching all day for almost a week. Even the hardcore fans doesn't have that much time on their schedule. It would help also the drivers to being more with family, relax and regenerate. Reducing the calendar would also help. Classic rallies stays, and some with rotating spots. Like Australia/NZ, or Argentina/Chile. Estonia/Latvia/Poland...

As for rally2 switch over rally1... Those guys in front of the field would turn any machine in fast and exciting vehicle to watch. So I'm not worried of being not interested enough. I'm actualy not interested in watching if there is dominance in one driver and team. I point on F1 2023. Like you already know who would win literaly every race out there. As of this year Monte, I want that. On every round. No matter what class of cars they drive. As long as there is battles out there.

I think that point system will not work good and they would need to change it soon. Maybe reward points for each stage on sunday or simply put everyone on new tyres for PS.

If there would be like 20+ cars for top category (i don't know if there would still be WRC2 if they really abandon rally1 cars), I personaly don't know how would they run AllLive.. Maybe two pictures in one. Replays of moments and interesting thing, splits, telemetry.. Don't know. But one thing for sure. If they stop broadcasting all together, I hope that radio, splits, maps, news and all of that will not be payable. Because it's not worth it. Even now with live video, people barely pay, because the service is so bad.

Another idea. Maybe they could run ERC and other continental championships simultaneously with WRC rounds. Reducing costs with organization, more participants, more fans...

And another silly (but personaly the best) idea would be implement ''classic category''. Where all previous cars which did participate in WRC somewhere in history of sport. It would be awesome to see some retired drivers with Quattros, Lancias, Minis or even old spec Fiestas.

[SubaruNorway]

2-3 minutes is ok for live TV coverage, for spectators on site it is disaster...

Yup, haven't 100% calculated it yet, but watching more than 2 proper stages a day on Friday and Saturday in Sweden you will barely have time to watch all Rally1's on the first stage in the morning

[typhoon]

Another idea. Maybe they could run ERC and other continental championships simultaneously with WRC rounds. Reducing costs with organization, more participants, more fans...

This would be economically unsustainable for the local promoters, as they would set up the infrastructure for the event on a massive scale to accomodate all the crews and teams.

Also, this would be unsustainable for the WRC Promoter as well, as it would lose 500.000 euros for each event on the ERC calendar. And if the idea is to charge the WRC events, some are already in trouble gathering 1M for their slot, they wouldn't be very happy to hear about 1.5M calendar fee...

[Mirek]

It's nonsense for everyone because it would not attract far majority of the ERC competitors. They come to fight for OVERALL victory and for their media and public exposure. They would get none of that in WRC.

[SubaruNorway]

Didn't ERC run with WRC in Spain one year, when nobody noticed they were there

[PLuto]

Yup, haven't 100% calculated it yet, but watching more than 2 proper stages a day on Friday and Saturday in Sweden you will barely have time to watch all Rally1's on the first stage in the morning

"Thanks god" for all this calculations there is not so many Rally1 cars...

[lmmjvss]

https://www.euractiv.com/section/transport/news/epp-group-vows-to-revise-combustion-engine-ban-as-soon-as-possible/

Hmmmmm.

[SubaruNorway]

"Thanks god" for all this calculations there is not so many Rally1 cars...

Well in one way yes, but I'm meaning time to the next stage, hard to know when you don't know at what point you will be at the stage anyway. In Finland i came from Laukaa after Greensmith, got the camera up and made Kalle at the Myhinpaa sideways jump by less than 1min so my calculations can be a "bit" close sometimes lol

[typhoon]

First event wrap-up: without the "hammers" Rovanpera and old-Ogier, it's just a great battle at the front and it benefits the WRC so much. WRC-2 is once again on fire, fantastic fight for the podium and top spot, keep going.

TV: some improvements with picture-in-picture interviews to keep watching the action on the stage, some editorial things to fix, when there's battles going on you have to follow it and not focus on Fourmaux. As someone said this weekend, we need more fixed side cameras to get more action.

Social media: the new social media manager is doing an impressive job and, as I wished last month on another thread, finally they introduced the pre-rally and post-rally shows. Still room for improvement for the highlights, 3 minutes is just not enough, 6-8 minutes would be already better as asked by many fans on the comment sections. Hopefully it will get better in the next events.

[deephouse]

Where was drones? I missed shots, cuz they can be awesome

[WRCStan]

Didn't ERC run with WRC in Spain one year, when nobody noticed they were there

Yes, with a different itinerary as I recall, so wasn't technically the same rally.

[Myrvold]

Yes, with a different itinerary as I recall, so wasn't technically the same rally.

Same day 1 and 2 except for the spectator-stage on Saturday.

[WRCStan]

Same day 1 and 2 except for the spectator-stage on Saturday.

So who won the rally? ;)

[Myrvold]

So who won the rally? ;)

Heck if I know. I honestly never cared or watched anything from ERC until last year ^^, I just remember it, because I initially thought it was cool, and that it would make it a big entry for a rally again. When it didn't happen I didn't care again :P

[PLuto]

Heck if I know. I honestly never cared or watched anything from ERC until last year ^^, I just remember it, because I initially thought it was cool, and that it would make it a big entry for a rally again. When it didn't happen I didn't care again :P

ERC version of Rally Catalunya 2022 was won by Bonato - https://rally-base.com/2022/erc-rally-catalunya-2022/

But from beginning it was sure it is nonsense to have WRC and ERC event together. After covid with limited possibilities for events, FIA was pushing to bring WRC to some ERC rounds, it was very close on some of them (for example Liepaja), there was also some pre-agreement for the format, but in the final it failed.

[WRCStan]

Someone shared this, its half-interesting: Theres this anual "Sustainable Motorsport Index" released every year and ERC continues to be high on the ranking, only behind FormulaE, ExtremeE, F1, MotoGP and the extinct eWTCC. I know that "Not traveling around the world" counts A LOT, but its interesting to see. WRC is 15° on the list, behind crazy poluted stuff like the European Truck Series and Nascar.... Guess the hybrid engines are not doing much for them? ...the all electric world rallycross is doing EVEN WORST. Thats so weird haha

https://www.sustainablemotorsportind...torsport-index

Duff link BTW.

It'll always be a box tick exercise whatever the industry, there will be bribes, favours and coverups, it's a load of nonsense really - not to say it doesn't matter.

[fiscorpun]

- Dammit, I tried to fix the link but the message was deleted. Using this forum on the smartphone is so terrible haha
I think the link is fixed now?

==============
Someone shared this, its half-interesting: Theres this anual "Sustainable Motorsport Index" released every year and ERC continues to be high on the ranking, only behind FormulaE, ExtremeE, F1, MotoGP and the extinct eWTCC. I know that "Not traveling around the world" counts A LOT, but its interesting to see. WRC is 15° on the list, behind crazy poluted stuff like the European Truck Series and Nascar.... Guess the hybrid engines are not doing much for them? ...the all electric world rallycross is doing EVEN WORST. Thats so weird haha

https://www.sustainablemotorsportindex.com/sustainable-motorsport-index?fbclid=IwAR2C-yZ2d9lCOfDj0ZcYYVL0fFJdXS8nDEYnNDkFsiU8HhhmhLMZ5et sJYY

[Mirek]

- Dammit, I tried to fix the link but the message was deleted. Using this forum on the smartphone is so terrible haha
I think the link is fixed now?

==============
Someone shared this, its half-interesting: Theres this anual "Sustainable Motorsport Index" released every year and ERC continues to be high on the ranking, only behind FormulaE, ExtremeE, F1, MotoGP and the extinct eWTCC. I know that "Not traveling around the world" counts A LOT, but its interesting to see. WRC is 15° on the list, behind crazy poluted stuff like the European Truck Series and Nascar.... Guess the hybrid engines are not doing much for them? ...the all electric world rallycross is doing EVEN WORST. Thats so weird haha

https://www.sustainablemotorsportindex.com/sustainable-motorsport-index?fbclid=IwAR2C-yZ2d9lCOfDj0ZcYYVL0fFJdXS8nDEYnNDkFsiU8HhhmhLMZ5et sJYY

Without sinking deep into the exact method behind the statistics it shall be taken with a vagon of salt. As any other statistics.

[TypeR]

- Dammit, I tried to fix the link but the message was deleted. Using this forum on the smartphone is so terrible haha
I think the link is fixed
...
https://www.sustainablemotorsportindex.com/sustainable-motorsport-index?fbclid=IwAR2C-yZ2d9lCOfDj0ZcYYVL0fFJdXS8nDEYnNDkFsiU8HhhmhLMZ5et sJYY
Offtopic, but..
I figured out that if you want to edit the post in smartphone, then first scroll down and click on ,,Full Site'', then (at least for me) the post won't delete right away.

[Andre Oliveira]

World Rallysprint Championship 2025

266 km in Sardegna


https://scontent.fopo5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/423236919_7755698741126152_8381461812595431447_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=c42490&_nc_ohc=aGQnuJY7tK8AX_t5ROV&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-1.fna&oh=00_AfD_fKEyA_X423uZrRDnp6AEXC-AOhKau6eX3tJvZ4m07Q&oe=65BEA6D6

[fiscorpun]

Tbh a world rally sprint championship would be very cool haha. Especially if they manage to have that same look from those redbull events in Downhill mountain bike.
I started following WRC because of the World Rallycross in 2014. I fell in love with those cars and they would talk all the time that those were "Rally machines with double the power". I got interested... Here I am, watching WRC for basically 10 years. Gotta grab the YOUNGSTERS where they are hehe

[PLuto]

I was thinking to go to Sardegna as spectator this year. But with so short and stupid schedule, it is not worth for me to spend money for this comedy. This documents helped me with my choice...

[Jarek Z]

How does 25 cars fit into itineraries with all live?

At 3 minute intervals on gravel the 25th is starting 1hr15m after the 1st. Assuming all being covered is desired, with no crossover and WRC2 gets nothing, a typical loop could be 6 hours or more.

And how do they do it in ERC where 30+ Rally2 cars is a norm in every round?

[PLuto]

And how do they do it in ERC where 30+ Rally2 cars is a norm in every round?

There is only 2 min gaps in ERC. And still it is a big problem...

[Jarek Z]

Guys, there was plenty of comments from you here. Maybe now you should add them to the official WRC fan survey? FIA wants to find out what you think of the series:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-asks-fans-to-shape-wrc-future-with-survey/

[PLuto]

Guys, there was plenty of comments from you here. Maybe now you should add them to the official WRC fan survey? FIA wants to find out what you think of the series:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-asks-fans-to-shape-wrc-future-with-survey/

I think this was discussed and linked in another topic. I think most of us has filled it. But I am not sure if it will help to anyone. But should be curious to see theraw data...

[WRCStan]

Guys, there was plenty of comments from you here. Maybe now you should add them to the official WRC fan survey? FIA wants to find out what you think of the series:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-asks-fans-to-shape-wrc-future-with-survey/

Like I said in the other thread, this was not designed to survey opinions. More like a way to say 'fans agree with what we are doing' when they announce/propose any decisions that they already took, which is why many of the questions held a bias. Some questions, eg. on safety, fans are not qualified to answer. If they can't use the survey because the fans disagree, we will never hear the results. Only a fool would think they would take the advice from fans on shaping the championship.

[Eli]

Hey guys, did anyone here joined in a zoom meeting considering the working group/forces they wanted to do after the survey? Curious if anyone here managed to have his say.

[masa90]

Interesting to see what (if any) updates will be shown from these polls.

In other topics, man these cars are fast and pretty much any time there is a crash -> big one. Luckily in Sweden there is these big snowbanks, but honestly the cornering speeds are getting kinda out of control.

[WRCStan]

Promotion

In order to leverage promotional opportunities around each event and maximise the WRC’s full potential, the FIA will establish a WRC Promotion Team within the FIA in close collaboration with stakeholders from the WRC Promoter, event organisers and manufacturer teams.
The WRC Promotion Team’s key focus will be to develop a WRC Charter that will define a set of commitments from all stakeholders to promote the WRC to a wider audience against an agreed set of objectives and KPIs.
This coordinated approach will leverage the expertise of each party in order to promote the WRC outside its current fan base as one of the foremost motor sport championships in the world.

This sounds like an extra layer of obligations, which when you have champions exiting the game because of them... hmmm.

KPIs.... lol. Definitely sport!

[fiscorpun]

hmmmmmmmm Interesting point. Now they have to COMPETE and PROMOTE?
I mean, I heard a Msport guy from social media is now with Hyundai, and they had a really great video on youtube after Monte Carlo. DirtFish have also great content in video. We have some decent amount of "content"... The problem would be "how to reach WEC, F1, MotoGP and Nascar fans", IMO. How to TOUCH their little road racing hearts. Cuz these would be target, right? WRC would get nothing by trying to reach Soccer fans... (for example)

[WRCStan]

autosport/motorsport.com podcast gravel notes on the new rules. interview with david richards.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1LOuS4LbKFUdzUIqOyUh7L?si=P88kp3izSHSiejfrPDZoLw%0 A

Continuation from 'main class 2025' thread for relevancy

DR says tuners will be able to build the 2027 FIA chassis and attach homologated bodywork from the manufacturers.

That aint happening.

[saco0o]

is this a joke? here the results from the survey
https://www.fia.com/news/world-rally-championship-fan-survey-helps-shape-working-group-recommendations-future-wrc

a survey with rally fans. results were: "hardcore rally fans love rally". wow

[AndyRAC]

The problem would be "how to reach WEC, F1, MotoGP and Nascar fans", IMO. How to TOUCH their little road racing hearts. Cuz these would be target, right? WRC would get nothing by trying to reach Soccer fans... (for example)

Well that's currently an issue I reckon; go on website forums such as Autosport, Pistonheads, Ten Tenths for example - and the rallying threads are quiet......the WRC isn't interesting those fans of motorsport. I noticed that during the weekend of the Monte, it was also the Rolex24; there was a stark difference in comments.....hundreds for the Rolex, barely 20 for the Monte.

[Backa]

go on website forums such as Autosport, Pistonheads, Ten Tenths for example - and the rallying threads are quiet......

Aren't we on motorsportforums right now? I am not even sure if Rolex24 has own thread there while rallying threads are quite noisy.

There is a lot of potential WRC fans among current F1/WEC fans but accessibility needs to be improved. WRC makes some good steps towards it and some bad ones.

And of course could do better, if Rallye Monte Carlo would be free on youtube during F1/WEC offseason, it could be nice "bait" for new fans but it obviously makes problems with current tv deals.

From other hand, reason why long 26-minute highlights are on relatively unknown redbull.tv site instead of official WRC youtube channel is really weird.

Rally games becaming better and better is also good thing, EA Sports WRC is quite okayish and have potential to grow rally fanbase.

[WRCStan]

From other hand, reason why long 26-minute highlights are on relatively unknown redbull.tv site instead of official WRC youtube channel is really weird.

Bit difficult to sell to TV broadcasters around the world when you give it away for free on the world's biggest internet video service.

[Backa]

Bit difficult to sell to TV broadcasters around the world when you give it away for free on the world's biggest internet video service.

To some extent, sure. Still, you give it for free already and majority of people that are already engaged rally fans seems to be aware of it.

Going from redbull.tv to youtube would be more about gaining new fans. Some of those people could later decide those highlights aren't enough and subscribe to rally.tv like I did last year or pay for Motowizja or other tv deal.

There is golden mean somewhere between providing level of accessibility that makes people interested and reaping the fruits from having fanbase. I doubt current state is that golden mean.

[WRCStan]

WRC WORKING GROUP CHIEF: I DON’T UNDERSTAND NEW POINTS SYSTEM
DAVID RICHARDS GAVE A BLUNT APPRAISAL OF HOW POINTS ARE CURRENTLY ALLOCATED IN THE SERIES

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-working-group-chief-i-dont-understand-new-points-system/

[WRCStan]

WRC WORKING GROUP CHIEF: I DON’T UNDERSTAND NEW POINTS SYSTEM
DAVID RICHARDS GAVE A BLUNT APPRAISAL OF HOW POINTS ARE CURRENTLY ALLOCATED IN THE SERIES

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-working-group-chief-i-dont-understand-new-points-system/

”You know, the reason football is so popular is because you kick a ball backwards and forwards and you score the points for every time you get a ball in the goal. And if we can think of a simple points system for the World Rally Championship, it’d be far better for us.”

The old football analogy that doesn't work. No league I know scores points on goals. You can score 5 and get 0 points, or score 0 and get 1 point.

[Backa]

Football leagues gave 3 points for win but only 1 for ties, which is quite similar idea to reducing cruising.

Seems like Richards don't know football points systems too.

[typhoon]

Bit difficult to sell to TV broadcasters around the world when you give it away for free on the world's biggest internet video service.

It's 2024, TV broadcasters wants to purchase live content and not highlights to be broadcasted at 11pm CET.

[WRCStan]

It's 2024, TV broadcasters wants to purchase live content and not highlights to be broadcasted at 11pm CET.

If you can explain why in the UK a 52 minutes highlights show is on the commercial channel ITV4 a week on Wednesday later, a channel which doesn't show the live stages, while Youtube has 2 minute clips; then I'll change my view.

[becher]

Bit difficult to sell to TV broadcasters around the world when you give it away for free on the world's biggest internet video service.

But thats the problem, it isn't on YouTube. I'd take an uneducated guess and say reach would triple if it was on the official WRC channel on YouTube

[typhoon]

If you can explain why in the UK a 52 minutes highlights show is on the commercial channel ITV4 a week on Wednesday later, a channel which doesn't show the live stages, while Youtube has 2 minute clips; then I'll change my view.

This is up to the WRC Promoter adjust the price tag for what it offers to broadcasters. On the other side, Broadcasters weights the budget they can gather from advertisers and take their choices.

Now: if WRC Promoter discounts the highlights, more free to air (FTA) broadcasters would be interested in getting those highlights, since they can return on their investments and offer new contents to their viewers based on their target audience.

RAI (Italian BBC) and private SportItalia respectively ditched WRC and WRX once those rights became too expensive for their budgets. Those two networks had a combined audience of almost 700k viewers and about 4% share. Which for a "minor" sport like WRC would be gold now!

It would be very useful, for next 2025 season, to arrange those contracts in a way they will be able to freely distribute 8-10 minutes videos on official WRC YouTube channel.

Time for the WRC Promoter to take bold decisions eventually.

[WRCStan]

https://www.raiplay.it/programmi/rally seems to be up to date.

I'm willing to bet the EBU has a finger in it. Whatever, the point is the promotor doesn't see need to change, there's no lack of ability or desire that they don't change anything. I don't doubt YouTube could grow the eyeballs but it's 19 years old, the disruptive days are long gone. if there was to be a flip point for wrc it would have happened by now.

[Franky]

RAI (Italian BBC) and private SportItalia respectively ditched WRC and WRX once those rights became too expensive for their budgets.

Most likely it wasn't just about getting to expensive but also not producing not enough ratings. TV is all about ratings and advertising money that you can get for those ratings.

[typhoon]

Most likely it wasn't just about getting to expensive but also not producing not enough ratings. TV is all about ratings and advertising money that you can get for those ratings.

Both were above their daily average ratings on the same timeslots.
RAI, for example, during Rally Sardinia got 200k more viewers (in a channel that gets about 400k on average) on all stages broadcasted, Sunday's Powerstage included (competing with Serie A's football match for the Asian markets at 12.30 CET!!).

It's all about price, not ratings for sure. At least in Italy, elsewhere I don't know.

But again, if you got cheaper rights that can cope with those ratings, you're good to go and you get a profit for it. It's not rocket science.

[rallyfiend]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/neuville-clarifies-wrc-future-amid-anger-over-fia-technical-reforms/10587844/

So, the brains trust of the FIA thought it would be a good idea to have a bunch of old men who are disconnected to the sport come up with new regulations without consultation with actual stakeholders?

And they're possibly going to push teams out?

Well, isn't this just perfectly symbolic for this total disaster of an FIA administration.....

[Rallyper]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/neuville-clarifies-wrc-future-amid-anger-over-fia-technical-reforms/10587844/

So, the brains trust of the FIA thought it would be a good idea to have a bunch of old men who are disconnected to the sport come up with new regulations without consultation with actual stakeholders?

And they're possibly going to push teams out?

Well, isn't this just perfectly symbolic for this total disaster of an FIA administration.....

The WRC Commission maybe not decides but give inputs, is having some younger former actives, and not only men. Pernilla Solberg is one of them.

[WRCStan]

The WRC Commission is not the Working Group.

[Rallyper]

The WRC Commission is not the Working Group.

I know that. But they are set to give inputs.

[WRCStan]

I have a feeling the Solbergs were there pushing for the WRC Kit for Rally2.

Or who else?

[Rallyper]

I have a feeling the Solbergs were there pushing for the WRC Kit for Rally2.

Or who else?

Who knows. You mean they do it for own purpose? I don´t think so.

[PLuto]

I have a feeling the Solbergs were there pushing for the WRC Kit for Rally2.

Or who else?

I dont think so. In reality, I dont know who was pushing for Rally2 Kit. I didnt found anyone from "insiders" who really likes it.

[Morte66]

I have been wondering about this idea of sort-of-merging WRC1/2 by nerfing/buffing the cars, and how it will play out on cleaning rallies.

In Sweden, we had a WRC2 stage win thanks to massive cleaning. I thought it was a cool story once, but it would be a bit silly if it happened all the time. Somebody mentioned the Janner rally, where they sometimes get massive cleaning and guys starting an hour or two back in Evos get stage wins. Will we get much more of this if we close/eliminate the gap between WRC1/2?

I'm thinking of Sordo's wins in Sardinia, which I think he mostly owed to road position. Could we see somebody like Gus Greensmith or Marco Bulacia getting overall podiums in a WRC2+ because it's their first rally of the year and they started 30th on the road?

And if so, would it be a good thing?

[BleAivano]

A short interview on local radio with Pernilla. Doesn't really say anything except that her mission officially starts on 1 April.

https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/ska-vanda-och-vrida-pa-allt-solberg-leder-arbetet-att-forandra-rally-vm

[saco0o]

the best suggestion i read still something like:
- hybrid/electric/hydrogen rally2 car for manufacturer teams
- current regular rally2 car for privateer and costumer teams
if Lancia wants to sell rally2 car for privateers all over the world, they can! if they want to run as a manufacturer, get a kit. that way toyota could develop their hydrogen yaris, that would be cool. ralliart is racing hybrids, maybe they could come back too. hyundai and renault have electric projects? bring it.
oh, there b.o.p. for sure

[WRCStan]

- hybrid/electric/hydrogen rally2 car

What does that mean? Any examples?

[saco0o]

What does that mean? Any examples?

im not the best with these technical stuff, ok? but my thought would be manufacturer teams would have to build a 'rally2' car with: hybrid engines OR totally electric OR one that runs on hydrogen on the same "specs" (like max power to weight ratio) as a regular rally2 ("4.2kg/hp" / 1230kg / 1620cc). it would be heavier, of course, so then you have a little bit more power to compensate. i dont know how the b.o.p. would have to be implemented, but im sure people with more knoweledge could help. that way, for example, Hyundai could run their hybrid KONA on the factory team, but it would be "on the same level" as privateers running i20 rally2 cars. i mean, of course it would not be exactly the same since manufacturer teams spend more so they are normally faster, but that way we could have room for manufacturer and privateer/costumer teams on the top class, since the "specs" would be more similar. they can even run their IONIQ 5N with electric power as long as the power to weight ratio is similar to current rally2 cars (again, im not sure how that works on b.o.p., but im sure is doable).
does that sound ok? of course rally2s are not as fast as rally1, and its NOT going to be a "rally2+" thing, its just rally2 cars, but manufacturers gotta run hybrid engines, or full electric or on hydrogen (like toyota already showed, tho that looked more like a rally3 machinery)

i know its easy to say this from my couch here, but when manufacturers want to move on to new models, they could have a "racing division" to sell their "next" rally2 cars with regular engines and synth fuel to privateers, like skoda and msport does. Hyundai could have a Kona with regular engine and synth fuel competing all over the world in the rally2 class, because its just for competition. maybe?

[WRCStan]

"specs" (like max power to weight ratio) as a regular rally2 ("4.2kg/hp" / 1230kg / 1620cc).

Cool, I think this is best way. For some it seems as simple as bodyshell car = Rally2 and prototype = Rally1, and the FIA are proposing evolutions of these as equals which makes no sense.

I agree with you generally on opening up, I think. It's whether WRC should be a testing ground or a proving ground, and right now... are there competition ready cars? No. Do manufacturers use motorsport to develop their road going tech, no - and it's probably illegal to advertise, which is a big problem, beyond the control of the working group. On that, will we ever see a 'Group A/N' WRC car again? Probably not. Thus why the FIA are doing R&D in hydrogen and EV.

You got it when you said the manufacturers don't want to be same league as everybody else. I don't think the current protest is much that they care for hybrid, they just don't want to be challenged.

[saco0o]

never watched this sport but for 2024 they are posting these great 25 min highlights and ALL THE TIME all i could think was "they did a waay better job than wrc on these highlights". like, presentating the sport. at least in my opinion. sharing here just for the thoughts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr-gs2T9Dgs

obviously i know that this is a different sport, but hey. super special stages, 'rally stages' in the 'middle of the forest' where fans gotta go to those place to watch the action. racing against the clock. not thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat distant from rallying

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/ogier-wrc-points-system-is-a-joke/

Ogier seems to agree with us.

[Mirek]

im not the best with these technical stuff, ok? but my thought would be manufacturer teams would have to build a 'rally2' car with: hybrid engines OR totally electric OR one that runs on hydrogen on the same "specs" (like max power to weight ratio) as a regular rally2 ("4.2kg/hp" / 1230kg / 1620cc). it would be heavier, of course, so then you have a little bit more power to compensate. i dont know how the b.o.p. would have to be implemented, but im sure people with more knoweledge could help. that way, for example, Hyundai could run their hybrid KONA on the factory team, but it would be "on the same level" as privateers running i20 rally2 cars. i mean, of course it would not be exactly the same since manufacturer teams spend more so they are normally faster, but that way we could have room for manufacturer and privateer/costumer teams on the top class, since the "specs" would be more similar. they can even run their IONIQ 5N with electric power as long as the power to weight ratio is similar to current rally2 cars (again, im not sure how that works on b.o.p., but im sure is doable).
does that sound ok? of course rally2s are not as fast as rally1, and its NOT going to be a "rally2+" thing, its just rally2 cars, but manufacturers gotta run hybrid engines, or full electric or on hydrogen (like toyota already showed, tho that looked more like a rally3 machinery)

i know its easy to say this from my couch here, but when manufacturers want to move on to new models, they could have a "racing division" to sell their "next" rally2 cars with regular engines and synth fuel to privateers, like skoda and msport does. Hyundai could have a Kona with regular engine and synth fuel competing all over the world in the rally2 class, because its just for competition. maybe?


In ralying you can't compensate weight with power. It's not drag racing. Heavy cars are slow in corners.

Fully electric COMPETITIVE rally car is impossible at 2024 tech level. You would need something like 400-500 kg of batteries to finish one section. Such car would be slow as hell especially if based on stock bodyshell (the electric "R5" in Austria had some 300 kg battery pack from Formula-E, it was slower than regular Rally2 cars and still not capable to finish a common WRC section distance).

Stock bodyshells of the small cars are generally not well suitable for making them into hybrid or EV. That's one of the reasons why we have spaceframe prototypes. For example if you use stock bodyshells you need different battery pack for every car unless it's very small battery (size, available space, shape of the floor etc.). Generally stock bodyshells for WRC/Rally1 level bring a lot of troubles. They make sense for Rally2 because the production numbers are much greater. For Rally1 the spaceframe prototypes are absolutely the right way to go especially taking into account the future possibility of private teams to homologate their own cars (and that is a must for the sport to survive).

The only way how to make an EV car competitive in WRC is the same way as in Dakar - serial hybrid. Again pretty much unsuitable for far majority of stock bodyshells which weren't designed with that in mind.

IMHO In the forseenable future WRC will go with synthetic fuels or hydrogen but not with EV.

[WRCStan]

In ralying you can't compensate weight with power. It's not drag racing. Heavy cars are slow in corners.

Not disagreeing with you, would just like more chat on this.

As an example, Hyundai Ioniq 5 N is 2.2 tons, 600-650hp, this needs to be restrained to be Rally2 level. Range/itineraries, safety structures etc, aren't the point; getting it around any stage on any surface with any undulations in a thought experiment is the point. Why can't we compare it to a car half the weight with half the power?

[Mirek]

Not disagreeing with you, would just like more chat on this.

As an example, Hyundai Ioniq 5 N is 2.2 tons, 600-650hp, this needs to be restrained to be Rally2 level. Range/itineraries, safety structures etc, aren't the point; getting it around any stage on any surface with any undulations in a thought experiment is the point. Why can't we compare it to a car half the weight with half the power?

Ionic 5 N has 84kWh battery. That means that if you use full power it's done in 7 minutes*.

It makes no sense to speak about these maximum power figures of stock EVs because those numbers make no sense whatsoever for anything more than few hot starts on traffic lights. It has no meaning for racing use.

*About 9-10 minutes with recuperation.

[WRCStan]

It's OK, it's a short stage!

Remember the FIA and promoter reserve the right to completely fuck over everything we all know, enjoy and understand about this series and sport. Or, maybe they might create a second or comparison series.

[JRodrigues]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/ogier-wrc-points-system-is-a-joke/

Ogier seems to agree with us.

Ogier likes to moan about everything and nothing, so no surprise.

[rallyfiend]

Ogier likes to moan about everything and nothing, so no surprise.

If he was still competing full time, I wonder which would be top of his moaning list:
- Road order
- Points system

[Andre Oliveira]

And he is right in both. Start order was changed when he was dominating (cleary the rule was made to stop that). About the points system, there is not need words when the winner of the rally can finish with less points the others. It is the complete negation of sport and winner merit.

[denkimi]

And he is right in both. Start order was changed when he was dominating (cleary the rule was made to stop that). About the points system, there is not need words when the winner of the rally can finish with less points the others. It is the complete negation of sport and winner merit.
The starting order rule is way older than ogier. But it was indeed made into 2 days of cleaning in 2015 to stop ogier, and then back into one day in 2017.

It's the most logical way to do the start order, number 1 starts first. But i must admit the cleaning gets too much sometimes. It would be better to have a wrc1 car as 0 to do the first cleaning.

[Backa]

It's the most logical way to do the start order, number 1 starts first. But i must admit the cleaning gets too much sometimes.

I would like for day 1 to change cleaning driver after every stage.

Stage 1: NEU EVA FOU OGI TAN KAT MIK MUN

Stage 2: EVA FOU OGI TAN KAT MIK MUN and NEU moved to back of WRC1 list

Stage 3: FOU OGI TAN KAT MIK MUN NEU and EVA moved to back

Relatively simple logistically and more fair.

[Andre Oliveira]

The most fair is QS.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ogier wasnt just moaning, he was backing up what most of the other drivers said when asked about the new points system.

[denkimi]

I would like for day 1 to change cleaning driver after every stage.

Stage 1: NEU EVA FOU OGI TAN KAT MIK MUN

Stage 2: EVA FOU OGI TAN KAT MIK MUN and NEU moved to back of WRC1 list

Stage 3: FOU OGI TAN KAT MIK MUN NEU and EVA moved to back

Relatively simple logistically and more fair.
no. you would need a regroup after every stage to switch drivers.

[saco0o]

Off Topic, but :rolleyes::

- FIA World Rally-Raid Championship
(...)the FIA World Rally-Raid Regulations were updated to include the requirement for manufacturers and event organisers to adhere the FIA Environmental Programme, which sets a compulsory two-star level of Accreditation when entering the championship and three-star from 2027(...)
:rolleyes:

[rallyfiend]

Off Topic, but :rolleyes::

- FIA World Rally-Raid Championship
(...)the FIA World Rally-Raid Regulations were updated to include the requirement for manufacturers and event organisers to adhere the FIA Environmental Programme, which sets a compulsory two-star level of Accreditation when entering the championship and three-star from 2027(...)
:rolleyes:

I think WRC has been 3-star for some time....

[PLuto]

All this environmental comedy... I was surprised there is special group inside FIA dedicated only to environmental issues...

[saco0o]

theres this annual motorsport report on sustainability that ranks EVERY racing championship on the planet. its so weird. world rallycross had only evs in both classes, for example. yet they scored worst than nascar and the european truck series!! erc also did better than wrc. i think that shows how traveling by air/ship is the "real enemy". or not, because motogp, f1 scored super well, which is also weird (+20 races year each). i have no idea what they are calculating. this is all BS imo.

i support the "green thing" as a whole, dont get me wrong, but ahh i hate politicians and propaganda. and tbh they are not doing "what experts said" they should be doing

[denkimi]

I still wonder why the FIA keeps trying to cater to the green madness. Those who enjoy motorsport don't care about it pretending to be green, and those that do care about being green will never watch it whatever greenwashing you do.
It's like so many company's in the west just seem to have forgotten who their customers are.

[saco0o]

tbh i still dont understand WHAT manufacturers gain by having hybrid cars in f1 or wrc or evs in... rallycross? extreme-e? cuz those are not even their cars, its all "spec". they can SAY they have hybrid/ev racing cars, but i never saw ANY of that anywhere. im not from europe, so idk if you guys get car ads with "buy an hybrid. our race cars are hybrids". whats the point? is it something related to the EU? is it money laundry? i dont understand. road relevance is another joke, basically. roll cages, open wheel cars, spec batteries, spec powertrain, spec hybrid unit... how is that road relevant?

its difficult for us FANS to imagine what are the next rules because its all fantasy. that stuff os detached from reality, so no one here can get it right, u'know? because tomorrow they can start another fantasy thrend and thats it haha weird

[Morte66]

tbh i still dont understand WHAT manufacturers gain by having hybrid cars

I don't know whether I remember this correctly, if not I'm sure somebody will correct me...

When the current rules were under discussion, Ford marketing was on a big push for their hybrid "Eco-Boost" engines. So they wanted hybrids in rallying. Rumour had it that M-Sport would pull out without hybrids. So we got the standard hybrid unit as the simplest/cheapest way of ticking the "hybrid" box.

[WRCStan]

I don't know whether I remember this correctly, if not I'm sure somebody will correct me...

When the current rules were under discussion, Ford marketing was on a big push for their hybrid "Eco-Boost" engines. So they wanted hybrids in rallying. Rumour had it that M-Sport would pull out without hybrids. So we got the standard hybrid unit as the simplest/cheapest way of ticking the "hybrid" box.

I'm not sure anything Ford and M-Sport said on this is the whole truth, rather they are used as the mouth piece. The FIA had hybrid planned for a few years before it arrived. They chose the supplier, the tech, signed the contract and the cheques, and will continue to do so. WRC must pop up now and again in the Ford bosses' inbox, but they're not really here.