2023 - Race 13 Belgium

[F1nKS]

Sprint Race Weekend, last race before the summer break.

Mclaren with momentum

Mercedes coming with new sidepods

But the biggest question is whether there will be racing. Leclerc and Gasly seem to be arguing for possible cancellation. Gasly was quoted
says the FIA need to listen to drivers when determining if it’s safe to race.

Hamilton, Verstappen and Perez said it not for them to worry about, but it up to the FIA to decide whether to race or not.

[Tazio]

Freakin' 'troll!

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[Nitrodaze]

Russell not showing proper awareness has cost Mercedes a good chance of being on the front row. this is the second time he has messed up Hamilton's qualifying lap. I really wonder what the chaps on the Mercedes pitwall are doing while all this is going on. They seem not to have learned anything from the first occurrence.

[Nitrodaze]

Great race for Piastri and Gasly. But what a weird penalty for Hamilton.

[Bagwan]

Great race for Piastri and Gasly. But what a weird penalty for Hamilton.

Lewis slid out into Checo and punched a hole in his car that forced him to retire it .
He might have gotten away with it had there not been damage to his rival's car .

It's too bad , as it was some great racing from Hammy until that moment .

[airshifter]

Another Sprint weekend with changing conditions and some surprises in store for everyone, from practice and through the Sprint.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Mercs or the McLarens make up places on Sunday, as Ferrari seem to destroy all chances of a good weekend once the actual racing starts. They have done well for themselves through the Sprint, but they are destined to blow it as they do lately.

As for Checo and Lewis, I thought more towards pure racing incident at first. But after viewing Checo's onboard and other angles, it's clear Lewis understeered into him. The penalty was warranted, even if most good drivers would have went for the same move. Perez seemed like he was already in big trouble regardless, and I think his time at RB will likely end at the end of the season.... if he can make it that far.

Stroll brings out a red flag in the Sprint Shootout, then Alonso bins it during the Sprint. That's not like Fred, and it will be interesting to see what they have for pace in the main race.

[The Black Knight]

Another Sprint weekend with changing conditions and some surprises in store for everyone, from practice and through the Sprint.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Mercs or the McLarens make up places on Sunday, as Ferrari seem to destroy all chances of a good weekend once the actual racing starts. They have done well for themselves through the Sprint, but they are destined to blow it as they do lately.

As for Checo and Lewis, I thought more towards pure racing incident at first. But after viewing Checo's onboard and other angles, it's clear Lewis understeered into him. The penalty was warranted, even if most good drivers would have went for the same move. Perez seemed like he was already in big trouble regardless, and I think his time at RB will likely end at the end of the season.... if he can make it that far.

Stroll brings out a red flag in the Sprint Shootout, then Alonso bins it during the Sprint. That's not like Fred, and it will be interesting to see what they have for pace in the main race.

Lewis understeered into him but Checo also didn’t give him enough room initially and it was that which cause him to go into the kerb and understeer into him. Honestly I’m quite shocked Lewis got a penalty for it. My initial reaction was that it was either a racing incident or Checo should have received a penalty for not giving enough space which triggered the incident.

Anyway, it is what it is. Not a big deal given neither are going for the championship.

[Carlton78]

Can someone please explain to me how Lewis Hamilton managed to set the fastest time in the last lap when it was under yellow flags for the whole distance.

[denkimi]

The only thing yellow flags are still for today is signalling that someone is outside of the track limits. The situations when they meant that drivers had to slow down have now all been replaced by (virtual) safety cars.

[airshifter]

I'm surprised that nobody had any comments about the race. I thought it was great to watch myself.


Well Ferrari didn't blow it, but Carlos didn't help himself any at the first corner. Granted it was the first turn, and a risky move by Oscar as well, but Carlos had at least a car width to Lewis yet closed the door hard enough the contact was inevitable. From there the team managed to at least keep Charles on the podium... maybe they only have enough strategy power for single driver?

With Sergio back in the game this weekend I don't think any of us are surprised that him and Max would end up on the top steps of the podium. Charles and Lewis did what they could and retained top spot along with Fernando. Though the top 4 seemed sure and stable, at one point I thought Lewis might have the pace to make an attempt on Charles, but it wasn't to be. But even Fred had to fend off some challenges, even if nothing major.

Speaking of Fernando and AMR, with he strong start they have had to the season who in the world would have ever predicted they were calling in Fred to cover the possible undercut of Albon and Tsunoda, who were applying that pressure on pure pace and merit? :D It surely wasn't anything I ever expected to see this year, much less at this part of the season. Though the races of both Alex and Yuki didn't keep them that far forward, it was freakish to even watch it.

Just enough rain where nobody gambled on inters, but I think they got fairly close. Overall pace dropped 5 seconds or more, and it caused a few twitchy moments but no major problems. I thought the action through the midfield was great to watch, plenty of clean races and some excellent moves going on. The Williams was a straight line rocket, only to be reeled in by other cars in the twisty stuff. Even then it was hard to pass, but possible. Alex did well even if the car fell out of the points. Ocon's move on Tsunoda was a really good overtake, and happened so easily he made it look simple.

Overall George did decent, and though Lando had a rough start to the race recovered well. Ricciardo never bounced back much from a poor qually, but now it's 1-1 with him and Yuki, and Yuki has now scored all the points for the team since Daniel joined! :laugh:


A classis track that usually provides a good weekend, and I think that was the case this year after a rocky start with the weather.

[airshifter]

Lewis understeered into him but Checo also didn’t give him enough room initially and it was that which cause him to go into the kerb and understeer into him. Honestly I’m quite shocked Lewis got a penalty for it. My initial reaction was that it was either a racing incident or Checo should have received a penalty for not giving enough space which triggered the incident.

Anyway, it is what it is. Not a big deal given neither are going for the championship.

No racer in their right mind is going to leave extra room for the attacking driver, and Checo left him the room required by the regs. Lewis blew it and went into the corner too hot to keep the car under him. "Enough space" requires only a car width which was given, and it's the job of the attacking driver to not cause the collision, not the job of the leading driver to give all the room desired.

[The Black Knight]

No racer in their right mind is going to leave extra room for the attacking driver, and Checo left him the room required by the regs. Lewis blew it and went into the corner too hot to keep the car under him. "Enough space" requires only a car width which was given, and it's the job of the attacking driver to not cause the collision, not the job of the leading driver to give all the room desired.
I disagree - the point at which Lewis went onto the Kerb he didn’t have enough room to the edge of the track and had no choice but to go onto it. A collision at that point was inevitable because he wasn’t provided enough room.

[Mia 01]

I´m afraid that Max will take ten titles in a row as it stands now.

[N. Jones]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the mess at Alpine. Do these people know what they are doing?

[Steve Boyd]

I´m afraid that Max will take ten titles in a row as it stands now.
But Newey is 65 - will he be there that long?

[airshifter]

I disagree - the point at which Lewis went onto the Kerb he didn’t have enough room to the edge of the track and had no choice but to go onto it. A collision at that point was inevitable because he wasn’t provided enough room.

The regulations, the on board, and the stewards don't agree. There are no special rules for any driver.

[airshifter]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the mess at Alpine. Do these people know what they are doing?

It seems like they are pulling a Ferrari. Start chopping heads until the car improves. It's probably no surprise that Binotto has been mentioned as a strong rumor to go run the team, he is used to such pressure.

Otmar did leave a lot of egg on the face when Fernando left and the Piastri saga took place.

[Nitrodaze]

I'm surprised that nobody had any comments about the race. I thought it was great to watch myself.


Well Ferrari didn't blow it, but Carlos didn't help himself any at the first corner. Granted it was the first turn, and a risky move by Oscar as well, but Carlos had at least a car width to Lewis yet closed the door hard enough the contact was inevitable. From there the team managed to at least keep Charles on the podium... maybe they only have enough strategy power for single driver?

With Sergio back in the game this weekend I don't think any of us are surprised that him and Max would end up on the top steps of the podium. Charles and Lewis did what they could and retained top spot along with Fernando. Though the top 4 seemed sure and stable, at one point I thought Lewis might have the pace to make an attempt on Charles, but it wasn't to be. But even Fred had to fend off some challenges, even if nothing major.

Speaking of Fernando and AMR, with he strong start they have had to the season who in the world would have ever predicted they were calling in Fred to cover the possible undercut of Albon and Tsunoda, who were applying that pressure on pure pace and merit? :D It surely wasn't anything I ever expected to see this year, much less at this part of the season. Though the races of both Alex and Yuki didn't keep them that far forward, it was freakish to even watch it.

Just enough rain where nobody gambled on inters, but I think they got fairly close. Overall pace dropped 5 seconds or more, and it caused a few twitchy moments but no major problems. I thought the action through the midfield was great to watch, plenty of clean races and some excellent moves going on. The Williams was a straight line rocket, only to be reeled in by other cars in the twisty stuff. Even then it was hard to pass, but possible. Alex did well even if the car fell out of the points. Ocon's move on Tsunoda was a really good overtake, and happened so easily he made it look simple.

Overall George did decent, and though Lando had a rough start to the race recovered well. Ricciardo never bounced back much from a poor qually, but now it's 1-1 with him and Yuki, and Yuki has now scored all the points for the team since Daniel joined! :laugh:


A classis track that usually provides a good weekend, and I think that was the case this year after a rocky start with the weather.

That's because it was a boring race. The outcome was as certain as the sun rising tomorrow. There was zero competition for the win. Perez did not even try, or his car was not completely repaired from his crash with Hamilton. I found myself needing to go for a walk during the race, to only return to see the conclusion of the race. The sprint was great. Piastri was the revelation of the weekend. It is clear Norris has something to worry about. This rookie is out to steal all his thunder. Great result for Gasly.

I would say though that the Alpine management is beginning to look like clowns. It is always difficult for a team to get out of a rut with overbearing boardroom messing with the operations. Look at how long it took Mclaren to start its recovery as it navigated several years of boardroom interference in the team operations. The messy parting of Ron Dennis, the following Honda years and Boullier, and finally stability under Zak Brown.

I suppose Alpine is about to make a similar turbulent transition towards a stable program but rather clumsily at the moment. The picture of Alpine as an F1 operation is looking somewhat chaotic and ugly. Sometimes that is what it take to regroup and orientate towards the aspired goal. For the sake of the two great driivers they currently have, l hope they work it out carefully and successfully.

[The Black Knight]

The regulations, the on board, and the stewards don't agree. There are no special rules for any driver.

The regulations do agree- you must provide a cars width and the onboard agree too if you bother looking closely enough, which I suspect you won't.

As for the Stewards, it matters not - a racing incident with them one day is a 5 second timed penalty the next.

[Nitrodaze]

The regulations, the on board, and the stewards don't agree. There are no special rules for any driver.

I think genuine wheel-to-wheel racing should not be punished. However, a clear intent to do damage to another driver's car should be punished unreservedly. What we saw between Perez and Hamilton was genuine wheel-to-wheel racing with both drivers taking an equal risk of damage to their cars if things go wrong. So it is up to each driver to do enough not to risk damage to their car. Unfortunately. Perez did not do that. One cannot turn in so tight into a corner knowing there is a car there and not expect the risk of damage to not increase sharply. The steward was reliably crap as usual with their knee-jerk reactions.

It was probabaly the only real battle that took place at the sharp end of the race. All others were DRS assisted. It is what it is.

[Bagwan]

The regulations do agree- you must provide a cars width and the onboard agree too if you bother looking closely enough, which I suspect you won't.

As for the Stewards, it matters not - a racing incident with them one day is a 5 second timed penalty the next.

I'm going to assume here , that you are referring to the corner before where the incident took place .

I didn't hear Lewis complain about being pushed off , and nor did I hear the stewards cite him for going off track in that corner .

It did set the stage , though .
Had Lewis been able to hold his line and not slide out into Sergio , there was no incident . He was unable to hold it because he was compromised on the way in by his rival .
His only choice was to slow down and concede the corner .

That's also what Checo was trying to achieve by moving in on the space Lewis needed to make that corner .


I found it a bit surprising that he got the points on his license , but he could have slowed , so as not to have slid out into a rival , putting him out of the race entirely .
It was a great show up to that moment , but that minor screw-up deserved the 5 seconds .

[Nitrodaze]

I'm going to assume here , that you are referring to the corner before where the incident took place .

I didn't hear Lewis complain about being pushed off , and nor did I hear the stewards cite him for going off track in that corner .

It did set the stage , though .
Had Lewis been able to hold his line and not slide out into Sergio , there was no incident . He was unable to hold it because he was compromised on the way in by his rival .
His only choice was to slow down and concede the corner .

That's also what Checo was trying to achieve by moving in on the space Lewis needed to make that corner .


I found it a bit surprising that he got the points on his license , but he could have slowed , so as not to have slid out into a rival , putting him out of the race entirely .
It was a great show up to that moment , but that minor screw-up deserved the 5 seconds .

I don't think slowing down would have avoid any sort of collision from occurring. Watch that section of the race again if you can. They were side by side for most of the way through that section. Common sense would say Perez should have given more room to reduce the risk of unforced error that could result in damage to his car. Chancces was always there that the car on the inside may lose downforce and drift outwards as a result.

Slowing down during a wheel-to-wheel battle is a sign of weakness and no driver with the bit between their teeth would consider it in the heat of the moment. That is simply racing as it should be. Besides, slowing down is even more dangerous, as cars behind are not expecting Hamilton to slow down.

Everyone who has commented about it found the penalty to be unfairly harsh.

[The Black Knight]

I'm going to assume here , that you are referring to the corner before where the incident took place .

I didn't hear Lewis complain about being pushed off , and nor did I hear the stewards cite him for going off track in that corner .

It did set the stage , though .
Had Lewis been able to hold his line and not slide out into Sergio , there was no incident . He was unable to hold it because he was compromised on the way in by his rival .
His only choice was to slow down and concede the corner .

That's also what Checo was trying to achieve by moving in on the space Lewis needed to make that corner .


I found it a bit surprising that he got the points on his license , but he could have slowed , so as not to have slid out into a rival , putting him out of the race entirely .
It was a great show up to that moment , but that minor screw-up deserved the 5 seconds .

Exactly he didn't leave enough room. The rules dictate the driver must also leave one car width’s space between his car and the edge of the track. The FIA have very clearly stated "For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track, but the kerbs are not" - at the point Lewis turned in (or just before it) there was moment where there was not one cars width to the edge of the track. He had to go over the kerb. And that is what caused his decision. I don't see why he should back out when Checo didn't give him enough room.

[Bagwan]

I don't think slowing down would have avoid any sort of collision from occurring. Watch that section of the race again if you can. They were side by side for most of the way through that section. Common sense would say Perez should have given more room to reduce the risk of unforced error that could result in damage to his car. Chancces was always there that the car on the inside may lose downforce and drift outwards as a result.

Slowing down during a wheel-to-wheel battle is a sign of weakness and no driver with the bit between their teeth would consider it in the heat of the moment. That is simply racing as it should be. Besides, slowing down is even more dangerous, as cars behind are not expecting Hamilton to slow down.

Everyone who has commented about it found the penalty to be unfairly harsh.

It is always going to be a risk to run around the outside of someone , and they both ran beside each other for a while without touching .

Even more risky , but within the rules as long as there is space for the other driver , is squeezing in around the outside in an effort to compromise the inside driver's line to force him to slow down knowing he can't make it around the tightened radius you've allowed .

You can argue that it was perhaps too much risk for Sergio to take , but given he was a nose ahead , it was his decision what line to take at that point .
Lewis could not hold that line , and slid outward into him because he was going too fast to make that radius .

It really is that simple . Lewis deserved the penalty .


I believe also , though , that Checo deserves a slap in the head from his team , for his action in the incident , as the very idea that he could get Hamilton to back out of it by squeezing him was never going to work and fraught with peril from the moment he thought it up .

[Bagwan]

Exactly he didn't leave enough room. The rules dictate the driver must also leave one car width’s space between his car and the edge of the track. The FIA have very clearly stated "For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track, but the kerbs are not" - at the point Lewis turned in (or just before it) there was moment where there was not one cars width to the edge of the track. He had to go over the kerb. And that is what caused his decision. I don't see why he should back out when Checo didn't give him enough room.

OK , now we're speaking of two different corners , but I get your point .
The squeeze I was referencing was Sergio moving right , just before Lewis sliding into him .

I think you're referencing the corner before the incident , which is a fair point .
The rules seem to be a little wishy-washy here , as we are led to believe that a driver must leave a car width beside him , yet he is not technically off track until his tire completely crosses the white line at the edge .

On some corners of some tracks , leaving enough room for a car means a few millimeters inside that white line as that's the line to aim for to be fast .

Under these rules , it seems he wasn't forced off completely so , no fault recorded in that corner .

It seems a little weird , but that seems to be the way it is .

[airshifter]

The onboards are very clear, and make it obvious that Checo doesn't squeeze Lewis at all. He takes a solid trajectory that leaves more than a car width, and doesn't so much as bobble or twitch towards Lewis at any time before impact. Lewis on the other hand, though completely on track with all four tires, tightens his turn and moves onto the curb some with his right tire, while increasing the gap between his car and Checo's.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-watch-the-contentious-contact-lewis-hamilton-sergio-perez-2023-f1-belgian-gp-sprint

You can clearly see the distance between the cars increase as Lewis cranks more right turn into the steering wheel. From the onboard with Sergio, it's rock solid, and with no additional steering input you can see the Merc moving farther inside, then outside as he gets into the wet and understeers.


This Twitter account shows the sequence in still photos from another angle, and you can see the alteration in the trajectory of the Merc as he goes inside further and compromises himself on the wet curb. You can also see that there is more than a cars width as Lewis understeers, and nearing two car widths before the contact takes place, since Sergio was sweeping through on the more conventional line and moving out on the track.

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamics_M1/status/1685356159253803008/photo/1


I'm too lazy to search for the onboard from Sergio, but having F1TV it was clear when viewed on a big screen that Sergio doesn't so much as twitch towards Lewis, he is in complete control and the car is planted. Lewis clearly adds the extra steering input that put him off track with no hint of Sergio closing the door any further. There was a YouTube video showing both onboards side and side and time synced as well.


If it's the claim of some that there wasn't a car width, provide any frame that shows that.



Lewis just blew it this time.

[airshifter]

I believe also , though , that Checo deserves a slap in the head from his team , for his action in the incident , as the very idea that he could get Hamilton to back out of it by squeezing him was never going to work and fraught with peril from the moment he thought it up .

As I said, from just the view shown on the coverage I have, I thought it was a racing incident with Sergio just as much at fault probably. But from the onboards he's in complete control, doesn't alter his trajectory, and always left more than adequate space per the rules. Lewis put himself in the wet, and lost control when he induced his understeer.

Hardly worth a slap to Checo for playing by the rules.

[Nitrodaze]

As I said, from just the view shown on the coverage I have, I thought it was a racing incident with Sergio just as much at fault probably. But from the onboards he's in complete control, doesn't alter his trajectory, and always left more than adequate space per the rules. Lewis put himself in the wet, and lost control when he induced his understeer.

Hardly worth a slap to Checo for playing by the rules.

A car's width of space is to the white line buddy. The fact that the Mercedes is forced onto the wet kerb is what we are referring to as squeezing and what caused the Mercedes to skid on wet patches on the kerb that resulted in the collision. It was a fair and hard fight, thus a racing incident that should not have been penalized if those stewards have any idea about wheel-to-wheel racing.

[Nitrodaze]

It is always going to be a risk to run around the outside of someone , and they both ran beside each other for a while without touching .

Even more risky , but within the rules as long as there is space for the other driver , is squeezing in around the outside in an effort to compromise the inside driver's line to force him to slow down knowing he can't make it around the tightened radius you've allowed .

You can argue that it was perhaps too much risk for Sergio to take , but given he was a nose ahead , it was his decision what line to take at that point .
Lewis could not hold that line , and slid outward into him because he was going too fast to make that radius .

It really is that simple . Lewis deserved the penalty .


I believe also , though , that Checo deserves a slap in the head from his team , for his action in the incident , as the very idea that he could get Hamilton to back out of it by squeezing him was never going to work and fraught with peril from the moment he thought it up .

With the budget cap becoming a talking point, damage to car at any team would not go unnoticed. Perez would need to clean up this side of his racing, l think.

[airshifter]

A car's width of space is to the white line buddy. The fact that the Mercedes is forced onto the wet kerb is what we are referring to as squeezing and what caused the Mercedes to skid on wet patches on the kerb that resulted in the collision. It was a fair and hard fight, thus a racing incident that should not have been penalized if those stewards have any idea about wheel-to-wheel racing.

Unless someone can show me a video or photo proving otherwise, the ones I've seen all show at least a car width to the white line. The onboard shows that Lewis moved without being pushed.

[Nitrodaze]

Unless someone can show me a video or photo proving otherwise, the ones I've seen all show at least a car width to the white line. The onboard shows that Lewis moved without being pushed.

Checkout the links that you posted buddy

[Bagwan]

As I said, from just the view shown on the coverage I have, I thought it was a racing incident with Sergio just as much at fault probably. But from the onboards he's in complete control, doesn't alter his trajectory, and always left more than adequate space per the rules. Lewis put himself in the wet, and lost control when he induced his understeer.

Hardly worth a slap to Checo for playing by the rules.

I just watched it again , and I now completely agree with you on all counts .
Checo , indeed , left enough room so that Lewis had space to run on track in the corner before the incident occurred .

[Bagwan]

Checkout the links that you posted buddy

I suggest you do the same .

[airshifter]

I just watched it again , and I now completely agree with you on all counts .
Checo , indeed , left enough room so that Lewis had space to run on track in the corner before the incident occurred .

I'm not at all surprised that you changed your mind. Anyone that looks at all the video and photos will not find any place where Lewis got squeezed. If there was such an incident there would be evidence that contradicts what we have as evidence.

Lewis created the contact and got a penalty.

[Bagwan]

I'm not at all surprised that you changed your mind. Anyone that looks at all the video and photos will not find any place where Lewis got squeezed. If there was such an incident there would be evidence that contradicts what we have as evidence.

Lewis created the contact and got a penalty.

I had it wrong , and you showed me evidence that "shifted" my opinion .

But , I never had the idea that a penalty for Lewis wasn't deserved .

And , I'm still on the fence over whether Checo needs a slap , as Lewis has form in this area tapping drivers wide when frustrated .
Ask Max or Albon about that .

[airshifter]

There is always some risk going wheel to wheel with anyone. In this case, the chances of inside line understeer probably increased a little based on track records, but at the same time no driver is going to just back out of it and give them loads of room either. If they are going to do that they may as well just act like they are being blue flagged and pull over for the other car.

But it seems these days with some patience you can find multiple angles of just about anything that happens on track most of the time. I usually resort to the replays and onboards of my coverage first, and go from there. It's hard to dispute video evidence in most cases, and sometimes you can even find telemetry data if needed.

As for the penalties, it seems they are trying to be more uniform, but I think a few have slipped through the cracks. Compared to previous years overall I think they are doing much better, but at times some of the track limits type stuff is slow to show up. At least they are working on changing some of the tracks to make it easier to enforce.