Again excuses

[ioan]

<<Moreover, both Alonso and Raikkonen ran on Michelin rubber last year, unlike Massa who was already at Ferrari, and the GP2 champion Hamilton.

"These tyres are very different to what I was used to," Raikkonen told the Finnish newspaper Turun Sanomat. "And from what I heard and read, Alonso's comments have basically been the same as mine."

The designer of Raikkonen's car this year, Aldo Costa, backed the view by revealing that Raikkonen had to 'soften' his aggressive style this year.


Robert Kubica (BMW), Heikki Kovalainen (Renault) and Christijan Albers (Spyker) have also struggled to adapt their styles to the new tyres.

Kovalainen told the specialist magazine Auto Motor und Sport: "I used to drive the Renault in the same way as Alonso did. But I have had to change back and as a result I have got closer to the way Giancarlo (Fisichella) drives."

Christijan Albers meanwhile said the situation has flattered rookies, like his rookie team-mate Adrian Sutil.

"He didn't have to adapt," said the Dutchman, "and I think it's been the same for Lewis.">>

Link: http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070522095857.shtml

So all those that are being currently beaten by their team mates are blaming the tires.
They were unable to adapt as well as their teammates and they think that this is a good excuse? Being a good driver means also to be able to adapt to the conditions!

As for some (i.e. Felipe and Lewis) driving on Bridgestones before, we all know that the new tires are very different from those use in the last seasons.

Albers is the most pathetic of all. He has already raced F1 cars but he thinks however that his team mate (who started this season) is advantaged by the fact that he didn't change from Michelin to Bridgestone.

What a bunch of losers. :down:

[A.F.F.]

IMO Kovalainen should start adapting to the thought he'll never be on the podium.

[janneppi]

Yeah, damn those lying Ferrari designers making excuses.

[ArrowsFA1]

Albers is the most pathetic of all. He has already raced F1 cars but he thinks however that his team mate (who started this season) is advantaged by the fact that he didn't change from Michelin to Bridgestone.
I'm not an Albers fan but he has a point. The rookies do not have to "un-learn" the knowledge he built up on last year's tyres. They have little or no experience to draw on so just get on and drive the car as it is.

[ioan]

I'm not an Albers fan but he has a point. The rookies do not have to "un-learn" the knowledge he built up on last year's tyres. They have little or no experience to draw on so just get on and drive the car as it is.

:eek: You actually mean that it is easier to learn to drive a F1 car than for an experience F1 driver to adapt to new tires?

[Valve Bounce]

Blessed are they who run around in circles, for they shall become BIG WHEELS.

[jens]

FA, KR, CA, RK and HK were expected to beat their team-mates this year, but it hasn't happened. It's also said that the Renault was built around Alonso's unique driving style, which at least current McLaren isn't. I don't think it's easy to anyone to admit that he's weaker than his team-mate.

Tough to say, where the truth is. I think we should wait to the second half of the season to see if anything has changed. I doubt that they will suddenly start dominating their team-mates, the changes in their performances will be more marginal. But we also can't say that anyone of those five has actually driven poorly: Alonso and Räikkönen are still in the title chase, after all. Kubica is matching Heidfeld pretty well, Kovalainen is getting better and I also still rate Albers quite highly - I think the current situation at Spyker shows more Sutil's strength than Albers's weakness.

[raphael123]

It does sound like a bit of an excuse, but there is probably some truth in it.

Obviously it's affecting Alonso and Kimi in particular.

[schmenke]

...So all those that are being currently beaten by their team mates are blaming the tires.
They were unable to adapt as well as their teammates and they think that this is a good excuse? Being a good driver means also to be able to adapt to the conditions!

As for some (i.e. Felipe and Lewis) driving on Bridgestones before, we all know that the new tires are very different from those use in the last seasons.

Albers is the most pathetic of all. He has already raced F1 cars but he thinks however that his team mate (who started this season) is advantaged by the fact that he didn't change from Michelin to Bridgestone.

What a bunch of losers. :down:

Trollin'... trollin'... trollin'... :D

[ioan]

Trollin'... trollin'... trollin'... :D

Yep, but why are you doing it? :p :

[futuretiger9]

The true top-liners should be able to "drive around" these problems.

[Ian McC]

What a bunch of losers. :down:

I expect the drivers have a point and will no doubt take a little time to adjust. Worth remembering we are talking about fractions of seconds here.

[jas123f1]

I’m sure that the guys Kimi and the others tell the truth ..

It’s also strange that a tyre supplier (in this case Bridgestone) choose tyres to teams :?: , because it takes a way any possibilities to tactical choices for teams. Which is only making races more boring - usually the car in pole also wins the race today (except Massas mistake in Malaysia)..

[rlenis]

Massa was on Michellins in 2004 and switched to Bridgstones in 2005 if I am not mistaken and Hamilton was on slicks which is a totally different tire.

[wedge]

I expect the drivers have a point and will no doubt take a little time to adjust. Worth remembering we are talking about fractions of seconds here.

:up:

The guys are evenly matched so its going to come to a tenth of second or two.

Little things like refining your driving style will make the difference.

James Allen noted that Alonso was not happy with the bigger, heavier brake discs on the front of his car in Bahrain.

I've noticed how Alonso still has his trademark driving style but its not as aggressive when he was in the Renaults.

[rlenis]

what if a driver has a defined driving style and they are suck driving any other way. Its possible. If ALonso was agressive and that worked for him and made him super fast perhaps being smooth is not going to give him that extra speed ...

[leopard]

The true top-liners should be able to "drive around" these problems.
Well said, driver, car and tires are important, but I didn't see tires problem as important as the engine problem, and the engine problem as important as the driver, the genuine top liners are supposed to overcome these problems.

[Hawkmoon]

I tend to agree with ioan on this one. These guys should have sorted out any tire related issues by now. They've had all offseason and 4 races to get used to the tires.

If Alonso and Raikkonen are still behind their teammates because of tires you'd have to question just how good are these guys. DC is up against Webber who was on Bridgestones last year and DC seems to have any problems with the tires sorted just nicely. Strange that the two fastest men in F1 today can't seem to do the same.

[Storm]

What a bunch of losers. :down:

Yep.

Except the best driver on the grid - Massa and the greatest ever to drive a F1 car..Michae...err

[Big Ben]

The most stupid claim would be to say that Hamilton dominates Alonso... He´s 2 points ahead. I´d say both have done a pretty good job so far... It´obvious that Ferrari are faster these day and they managed to keep McLaren ahead in the WCC. Perhaps some think that Alonso is a loser because he didn´t win 4 races this season but except Bahrain he did a very good job.

I will not say how much time a driver would need to adapt to a new tire because I don´t have a clue...

Perhaps the reason why DC is doing a better job than his team mate is because MW is not as good as some might think.

"they are a bunch of losers" is my favorite so far... They probably have the job they´ve always dreamt, they earn millions every year etc etc... and here comes a guy that spends hours reading articles about them, talking about them, worshiping one of them as if he was God Himself claiming they´re a bunch of losers.... Hilarious.

[jas123f1]

I wouldn't like to say that Alonso and Kimi are losers ??

To call a drivers like Alonso (double WDC) and Kimi (who won the first race and has been on the podium every time except last race when car get this "electrical blunder") to losers - after only four races - is in my mind crude.

Its shows only, how little some people understand about difficulties which the drivers meet when the driving conditions has been changed – for Alonso and Kimi actually has both new car and tyres. The car setup must be fixed and in the same time the driver must try to adapt his driving to his new car. I think it will be easier for them in Monaco because the tyres which Bridgestone have chosen are of soft compounds (first time this year). :)



I think both Alonso and Kimi have made a good start in their new teams and probably one of them or Massa will be the WDC 2007. (That’s however my opinion of it).

[leopard]

wise opinion, the crackerjack are usually the loser at the start, aren't they?

[aryan]

<<Moreover, both Alonso and Raikkonen ran on Michelin rubber last year, unlike Massa who was already at Ferrari, and the GP2 champion Hamilton.


I can assure you that the current F1 Bridgies are about as similar to GP2 tyres as my car's tyres with F1. GP2 runs on slicks, for god's sake... :dozey:

[Flat.tyres]

although ioan has approached it in his usual "do or die" judgemental way, he does have a point. calling them losers is obviously silly but the tyre excuse is a bit weak. kimi in particular has no excuse as ferrari have more experience with the brand than anyone else and helped test the new compounds. getting the car set up right for his style is more to do with his shortcomings rather than the tyres or the teams. The tyres seemed to suit him in Aus.

[janneppi]

Kimi has had to change his driving conciderably after his joining Ferrari, he wasn't happy how the car felt in aus either and he got new parts for his style in Spain.
To say drivers are only using tyres as an excuse is bit silly indeed.

[ioan]

<<Moreover, both Alonso and Raikkonen ran on Michelin rubber last year, unlike Massa who was already at Ferrari, and the GP2 champion Hamilton.
I can assure you that the current F1 Bridgies are about as similar to GP2 tyres as my car's tyres with F1. GP2 runs on slicks, for god's sake... :dozey:

Those were not my words, it was a quote from the article.
And I perfectly agree with you about the GP2 and F1 tires similarities, there is only the name and the shape!

[555-04Q2]

I have to agree and disagree with ioan's original post. It is pathetic for the worlds premeir race drivers to fail to "adapt" after winter testing, quali's and races.

People have been very chirpy for the last 6 years about how fast Kimi is yet he has yet to deliver like so many other "fast" drivers. How much longer do we have to listen to the Kimi is the fastest driver in F1 talk when he hasn't delivered yet :?: When he wins a WDC or two and changes his win to race start ratio from 9:1 to say 4:1 or 5:1 then people can start chirping. Alonso is a proven race and WDC winner and is fast, consistant and in my opinion the best driver in F1 at the moment. Hamilton is a find of note and I hope he can keep it up for the length of his career. He is the fastest driver in F1 at the moment if you ask me closely followed by Massa. Maybe by the second half of the season things will have changed but until then, Kimi and Alonso are struggling and excuses will not solve the problems they have.

P.S. I disagree with the loser part there ioan me mate ;)

[ioan]

P.S. I disagree with the loser part there ioan me mate ;)

I might have pushed it a bit too far with that one, but I certainly don't think Albers is a winner! ;)

Good to see you´re still around here! :up:

[Valve Bounce]

I might have pushed it a bit too far with that one, but I certainly don't think Albers is a winner! ;)

! :up:

Not while his erstwhile team mate Sutil hasn't crashed in the race of Albers' hopes. Sutil thinks he is as good as Lewis Hamilton but he is unfortunately stuck in a shyte car.

[ioan]

Not while his erstwhile team mate Sutil hasn't crashed in the race of Albers' hopes. Sutil thinks he is as good as Lewis Hamilton but he is unfortunately stuck in a shyte car.

Given that Sutil outqualified Hamilton in Monaco when they both were racing in F3 he might be really good.
I also expect that someone will pick him up from Spyker next season.

[jens]

Arguably Sutil has a 2-year-deal with Spyker. I remember that some time ago we discussed it here whether it's useful to make such a long contract with a rookie. Probably Spyker knew, how good that guy might be and don't want to give him away too easily...

[ioan]

That's bad for Sutil. In one year the attention might be on some other young and promising talent.

[Sleeper]

I've been following Mark Hughs' coloumn in Autosport for the last few months pretty closely, especally those concerning the tyres, and from what he's seen trackside through the months of testing and racing plus from talking to various engineers in the teams he has come to the conclusion that it does take a long time for those with experience with Michelins to get acoustemed to the intracacies of Bridgestone tyres. It appears that the Michelins had a very steep performance peek were it was easy for the drivers to tell when they were at the limits of the tyres performance, to the point were it was like a switch being turned on. The Bridgestones, at least this year and probably in years past, have a far more progressive performance curve, which sounds like an easier tyre to drive, but those that have spent years honing their skills to deal with the Michelins, are finding it harder to find the limit of the tyres without going over, is more subtle than they are used to. I suggest people give the Autosport website a try and see if they have any of Mark Hughs' articles on their as he has investigated and explained in far more detail than I can.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I suggest people give the Autosport website a try and see if they have any of Mark Hughs' articles on their as he has investigated and explained in far more detail than I can.

Nice idea Sleeper. But sadly I feel many of the fans on here would rather simply mouth off, than make an effort to actually understand the effects of tyre behaviour.

[ioan]

I've been following Mark Hughs' coloumn in Autosport for the last few months pretty closely, especally those concerning the tyres, and from what he's seen trackside through the months of testing and racing plus from talking to various engineers in the teams he has come to the conclusion that it does take a long time for those with experience with Michelins to get acoustemed to the intracacies of Bridgestone tyres. It appears that the Michelins had a very steep performance peek were it was easy for the drivers to tell when they were at the limits of the tyres performance, to the point were it was like a switch being turned on. The Bridgestones, at least this year and probably in years past, have a far more progressive performance curve, which sounds like an easier tyre to drive, but those that have spent years honing their skills to deal with the Michelins, are finding it harder to find the limit of the tyres without going over, is more subtle than they are used to. I suggest people give the Autosport website a try and see if they have any of Mark Hughs' articles on their as he has investigated and explained in far more detail than I can.

From what you say I find it a tad bizarre that they can go over the limit easier with the Bridgestones (have a far more progressive performance curve) than with the Michelins (had a very steep performance peek were it was easy for the drivers to tell when they were at the limits of the tyres performance, to the point were it was like a switch being turned on).

[janneppi]

So from a Michelin drivers point of view the Michelins were faster reacting from the start where as now they have to push for a longer time to get the same reaction and once the "curve steepens" it's easy to "overshoot" the braking.
Is that about right from the Hughs column?

[TMorel]

I tell ya what would help Kimi...
Having a chat with Schumi on how to get the best out of the tyres *nods*
Now, if only Kimi had hung around after the last race he might have been able to get some nugget out of Michaels vast experience.

[wedge]

Sorry, I haven't read Mark Hughes' column (non-Autosport subscriber).

Part of the problem is that BS tyres have a harder construction compared to the Michelins and have implemented this technology for this year.

The sidewalls are very stiff compared the Michelins which were much more forgiven. With the Michelins you run little front camber because the front tyres could easily lean into the corner.

[Sleeper]

From what you say I find it a tad bizarre that they can go over the limit easier with the Bridgestones (have a far more progressive performance curve) than with the Michelins (had a very steep performance peek were it was easy for the drivers to tell when they were at the limits of the tyres performance, to the point were it was like a switch being turned on).

I should say first that I think he was reffering to get the one lap performance out of the tyres, somewhere were Kimi has definitely fallen behind Massa.

It suggests that the curve has a very flat top to it so that there isnt that huge a difference between 95% and 100% of the performance (or something like that anyway). Its this part were years of experience with these tyres is a big help. Drivers like Massa have developed a feeling for just how hard to push to get the most performance possible at that time, whereas Hamilton and other rookies have to develop this feeling and those swithcing from Michelin have to first forget the specifics for getting the best out of the French rubber whilst developing the feel for BS rubber (which I am lead to believe can take a very big chunk of the season to do). I guess its not that big a leap to realise that the ex-Michelin drivers are finding it difficult because the BS tyres require a far more subtle method to get the best from them, and they are overshooting the performance peek.

[Flat.tyres]

Sorry, I haven't read Mark Hughes' column (non-Autosport subscriber).

Part of the problem is that BS tyres have a harder construction compared to the Michelins and have implemented this technology for this year.

The sidewalls are very stiff compared the Michelins which were much more forgiven. With the Michelins you run little front camber because the front tyres could easily lean into the corner.

just to elaborate a touch. bridgestones are a more homogeneous tyre where the whole of the construction is utilized rather then just the contact area as in Michelin. the Michelin is more a chassis that the usable rubber is constructed onto.

this means the bridgestone is more predictable and consistent but the bigger performance gains (and risks) lie with the Michelin.

[ioan]

I still find it rather interesting that Heidfeld did adapt to the new tires very fast, also Couldthard doesn't seem to have to much of troubles doing it.
But Kimi and Alonso need more than all those thousands of kms of testing and racing to adapt!

[janneppi]

Perhaps Heidfelds and DC's driving styles are naturally more biased to that kind of braking and they have actully benefitted from the change?

[Flat.tyres]

I still find it rather interesting that Heidfeld did adapt to the new tires very fast, also Couldthard doesn't seem to have to much of troubles doing it.
But Kimi and Alonso need more than all those thousands of kms of testing and racing to adapt!

well, kimi has said that the problem isn't specifically the tyre but the car in general. He's not too complimentary about the ferrari and publicly admits it was problematic at the start of the season although they nearly have it worked out to his liking now.

it is baffleing that he doesnt seem to be able to extract the performance that the car has the potential for as Massa has done.

[wedge]

I still find it rather interesting that Heidfeld did adapt to the new tires very fast, also Couldthard doesn't seem to have to much of troubles doing it.
But Kimi and Alonso need more than all those thousands of kms of testing and racing to adapt!

No disrespect to RBR and BMW but Kimi and ALonso are in a very intense battle with their team mates. There's very little difference between them.

As I mentioned earlier it's only a couple of tenths at most separating between their team mates. Every problem is magnified and analysed.

I'm sure DC and Nick have a problem with the tyres but all the attention is at Ferrari and McLaren.