Driver market Crazy season impending

[Nitrodaze]

It is not silly season yet, but a crazy season seems about to happen with Mercedes having such a crap start to the season for the second consecutive season. With frayed tempers evident behind the Mercedes closed doors, and Hamilton's contract not signed, the grapevine is he may jump ship and head to Ferrari.

Ferrari is not doing great either but seems most likely to bridge the gap to Redbull, so that makes sense. It is an open secret that Hamilton did not endorse the W13 and W14 chassis design, the W14 is showing all the hallmarks of being another dud. You do not have to be a seven times world champion to see that.

So, if Hamiton makes the move to Ferrari, assuming Ferrari wants him, this would set into motion some seismic driver movements from multiple teams. For a start which driver at Ferrari would lose his seat? Or should l say which driver would want to partner with Hamilton at Ferrari?

I suspect a swap between Leclere and Hamilton may take place. Or Norris would replace Hamilton with Sainz heading back to Mclaren. A more interesting scenario would be Nick Defries replacing Hamilton but leaving one of the Ferrari drivers looking for a seat. My guess would be Sainz which would put huge pressure on a number of drivers.

Somehow, l don't see it happening. Wolff and Hamilton have such a great relationship, l see them sorting out a solution. But this is F1, anything is possible. One thing is very clear, they need to make changes in the design department. Someone there is not going to provide Mercedes with a championship-winning car.

[Zico]

Are Ferrari not happy with their driver line up...or is this just wishful thinking by yourself?

I don't see Ferrari/Hamilton as a good match for each other, I can't put my finger on exactly why... but I just can't see it. That would be a crazy weird to see. I also think Ferrari would rather have two young up and coming drivers rather than a super expensive former WDC who is now in his twilight years.

Even with any bad blood taken out of the equation.. A move to Red Bull is even more unlikely, well unless Max was ever tempted to sign for the Red team... as there is no way Lewis is ever going to beat Max as team mates... also, I cant see Red Bull paying Lewis's hefty wage demands. I guess AM might be a remote possibility but only if Fernando retires.. again unlikely given the half decent car.

I strongly suspect Lewis will finish his career with Merc... whether its one, two or even three seasons from now.. then maybe try and come back after a couple of years once he gets bored as we often see from retired drivers.

[Nitrodaze]

Are Ferrari not happy with their driver line up...or is this just wishful thinking by yourself?

I don't see Ferrari/Hamilton as a good match for each other, I can't put my finger on exactly why... but I just can't see it. That would be a crazy weird to see. I also think Ferrari would rather have two young up and coming drivers rather than a super expensive former WDC who is now in his twilight years.

Even with any bad blood taken out of the equation.. A move to Red Bull is even more unlikely, well unless Max was ever tempted to sign for the Red team... as there is no way Lewis is ever going to beat Max as team mates... also, I cant see Red Bull paying Lewis's hefty wage demands. I guess AM might be a remote possibility but only if Fernando retires.. again unlikely given the half decent car.

I strongly suspect Lewis will finish his career with Merc... whether its one, two or even three seasons from now.. then maybe try and come back after a couple of years once he gets bored as we often see from retired drivers.

I agree Hamilton may not go to Ferrari for other reasons than you mention. Ferrari would jump for the chance to give Hamilton a seat if there is a chance to do that. His immense experience could definitely help them turn their fortune around and make them a winning team again. But the stars have to align for that to happen. This is F1, anything is possible. Mind you, with two young drivers, the potential of becoming a world-championship-winning team is hit and miss but possible with a driver with the right mentality. To be honest, l see that mentality in Leclere.

Also, we must note that Ferrari had tried to rekindle their championship-winning ways with Alonso and Vettel without success. So they may be asking themselves if they want to go through that again. But Hamilton is a different proposition compared to Alonso and Vettel. Just the sheer number of titles to his name suggests that he would bring something vastly positive to Ferrari. Ferrari thrives with a dominant figure that is also capable of producing the desired results.

I think Ferrari and Hamilton are more aligned now than ever. Both are very hungry of winning a championship. Hence, this shared desire could throw them together if Mercedes cannot convince Hamilton that this repeated mistake of turning up with an embarrassing car would not happen again. Other than a shake-up in their design department, l have serious doubt they would convince Hamilton any different. So l would say lets wait and see.

On Redbull. l cannot see Hamilton going to Redbull either. Redbull has a championship-winning driver that is capable of winning the current 2023 championship and the next few if they provide him with a winning car. But, deep down they know that is only possible if Hamilton is not in a championship-winning car. Hamilton joining the team would only be disruptive to them as two prima donnas slugging it out would heighten tension in the Redbull garage. I think you are very mistaken to say Verstappen would beat Hamilton in the Redbull. Hamilton would be more than a threat to usurp Verstappen from winning any more titles if he had Hamilton in the same car, and he and Horner know it. The question is whether Redbull would rather have Hamilton in their car rather than have him fighting them in a Ferrari. The other question is, would Hamilton want to go to Redbull? I certainly would love to see Hamilton and Verstappen together in the Redbull for sake of establishing the relative talent of these two exceptional drivers.

I think Mercedes would be in for a shock if they do not take this threat seriously and expect Hamilton would happily accept staying with the team and hope they turn it around at some point eventually as they put it. Hamilton has experienced this at Mclaren 2008 - 2013 and saw Mclaren's performance gradually dwindle as the years pass. Hence, he would recognize that pattern and would recognize the need to make a change. So it is not inconceivable for Hamilton to move to another team with a better programme aimed at winning the championship.

The real question is where? Another question is can Mercedes bounce back?

Why is the Ferrari-Hamilton partnership likely to be worrisome for Redbull? A Hamilton move to Ferrari would inject Ferrari with new dynamics, and introduce a new crowd of people that Hamiton would have around him that would have the sort of Jean Todd - Ross Brawn effect that Schumacher brought to the Ferrari machinery. The potential effect of this mix is quite formidable and anyone at Ferrari with half a brain would see that.


By the way, l think winning the 8th title is more important to Hamilton than Money. Nonetheless, he is worth what he is paid tenfold.

[Bagwan]

Whilst Hamilton , I believe I recall , has said that he would love to drive for them some day , since then , he , I believe I recall , has said that he would see his career out with Merc .

Since he changed his mind once , I guess he could again .

And , let's not forget he was beaten last year by young George .

I'm not so sure he has much choice but to stay there if they'll have him .
And , the griping won't help .

I just read that Merc is looking at giving the hot motors to AM if the works team doesn't shape up soon .

[airshifter]

I really don't expect anything out of the ordinary to happen. With the loss of both the drivers and constructors titles Lewis is probably in a position where they have the upper hand on price negotiation.

That will get the rumors going but I doubt anybody is going to pay him top dollar for a switch. Both Red Bull and Ferrari beat him last year and they probably expect to do it this year as well without any contract games.

[Nitrodaze]

Whilst Hamilton , I believe I recall , has said that he would love to drive for them some day , since then , he , I believe I recall , has said that he would see his career out with Merc .

Since he changed his mind once , I guess he could again .

And , let's not forget he was beaten last year by young George .

I'm not so sure he has much choice but to stay there if they'll have him .
And , the griping won't help .

I just read that Merc is looking at giving the hot motors to AM if the works team doesn't shape up soon .

That is true to some extent. I think the situation would be much different if they were racing for the championship. But we cannot take that away from George Russell.

[Nitrodaze]

I really don't expect anything out of the ordinary to happen. With the loss of both the drivers and constructors titles Lewis is probably in a position where they have the upper hand on price negotiation.

That will get the rumors going but I doubt anybody is going to pay him top dollar for a switch. Both Red Bull and Ferrari beat him last year and they probably expect to do it this year as well without any contract games.

I very much doubt that is the way team bosses look at talent. If they do, Hulkenburg will not be on the grid today. The loss of the driver's title and constructors was down to Mercedes and the crappy car they brought for the 2022 season. Actually, it is the other way around l think.

[Steve Boyd]

Aww c'mon guys - why not go for Lewis & Fernando at Aston - that's got to be fun! :rotflmao:

[Steve Boyd]

I just read that Merc is looking at giving the hot motors to AM if the works team doesn't shape up soon .Just remind me, how many motors are they allowed to have in a season?
And how many do you think they already have?
Or, are we talking about motors for next season?

[Nitrodaze]

Ferrari could be a dark horse this season. If they can get on top of their engine reliability, they might surprise everyone with the real performance of their engine. Mind you it was the fastest in a straight line last season. There is a good chance that they have not properly turned the wick up thus far.

[Bagwan]

That is true to some extent. I think the situation would be much different if they were racing for the championship. But we cannot take that away from George Russell.

Why would it be different if they were racing for a championship ?
Are you insinuating that Lewis isn't trying ?

[Bagwan]

Just remind me, how many motors are they allowed to have in a season?
And how many do you think they already have?
Or, are we talking about motors for next season?

They might have been windshield wiper motors , Steve .
I'm not sure .

Seriously , though , they get the motors from a pool offered by the manufacturer , as I'm sure you know , but the intimation is that they may get the ones with the shiny red stickers on them .

Just spreading an ugly rumour , man .

[Nitrodaze]

Why would it be different if they were racing for a championship ?
Are you insinuating that Lewis isn't trying ?

Exactly, he wasn't trying but testing various components. I would love to see both brits tussle on track for wins. Mind you, l highly rate George Russell and l have a bet he would be an F1 world champion in the near future. If George can beat Hamilton in a straight fight for the title, he would cement his name in the F1 hall of fame Alonso style.

[Nitrodaze]

They might have been windshield wiper motors , Steve .
I'm not sure .

Seriously , though , they get the motors from a pool offered by the manufacturer , as I'm sure you know , but the intimation is that they may get the ones with the shiny red stickers on them .

Just spreading an ugly rumour , man .

I am sure there is a bit of jealousy in there as well. Aston Martin blowing away the mighty Mercedes in the first race of the season has got to sting a bit, don't you think?

[airshifter]

Why would it be different if they were racing for a championship ?
Are you insinuating that Lewis isn't trying ?

Well obviously Bagwan, we all knew that last year you helped Trophy Wife win in FGP while you selflessly tested components, gave up sponsors, and provided her with valuable resources. We all know that had you been the top two teams you would have easily bested her if you desired.


Testing components. Testing components. :laugh:


Lewis didn't have a great year last year. His rookie teammate beat him. Lewis didn't have a great year in 2021. He lost the title while Merc retained the WCC due to the number two driver scoring good points above the RB number two.

It happens. Teams screw it up, drivers screw it up. None of them are winning championships in average cars, and none of them dominate without the best cars. Had luck always come his way and he had always been mistake free, Lewis would probably have 9 WDC's now. But he managed to snatch 7 of them, which is still a great record.

But the entire excuse train thing is just that... excuses. They are entitled to get it wrong, at some point lose to newer drivers, and have the imperfect cars. Life goes on. But for me personally, I think it's when people get too invested that the excuses all start coming to light. No proper hero can lose in a fair battle, thus it's time to change reality.


Sorry, not sorry. If Lewis decides to leave Merc he will. I don't think it will create any wild shuffling. Lewis is aging, the young guns are honing their skills. Not to say there isn't a place on the grid for a Lewis or Fernando, but their value is still decided by how they drive, not their track record.

[Steve Boyd]

They might have been windshield wiper motors , Steve .
I'm not sure .

Seriously , though , they get the motors from a pool offered by the manufacturer , as I'm sure you know , but the intimation is that they may get the ones with the shiny red stickers on them .

Just spreading an ugly rumour , man .
I was just thinking that if they're only allowed three for the season, there's one in each car and they must already have a spare for each car, it doesn't leave much scope for playing "musical engines".

Anyway, I'll bet Lewis already has the best one in the car and the second best for his spare. He'll have the third best stashed in a lock-up in Brackley so nobody else gets it. :)

[Nitrodaze]

Well obviously Bagwan, we all knew that last year you helped Trophy Wife win in FGP while you selflessly tested components, gave up sponsors, and provided her with valuable resources. We all know that had you been the top two teams you would have easily bested her if you desired.


Testing components. Testing components. :laugh:


Lewis didn't have a great year last year. His rookie teammate beat him. Lewis didn't have a great year in 2021. He lost the title while Merc retained the WCC due to the number two driver scoring good points above the RB number two.

It happens. Teams screw it up, drivers screw it up. None of them are winning championships in average cars, and none of them dominate without the best cars. Had luck always come his way and he had always been mistake free, Lewis would probably have 9 WDC's now. But he managed to snatch 7 of them, which is still a great record.

But the entire excuse train thing is just that... excuses. They are entitled to get it wrong, at some point lose to newer drivers, and have the imperfect cars. Life goes on. But for me personally, I think it's when people get too invested that the excuses all start coming to light. No proper hero can lose in a fair battle, thus it's time to change reality.


Sorry, not sorry. If Lewis decides to leave Merc he will. I don't think it will create any wild shuffling. Lewis is aging, the young guns are honing their skills. Not to say there isn't a place on the grid for a Lewis or Fernando, but their value is still decided by how they drive, not their track record.

Well of course, achievement counts for nothing nowadays. As you say it was luck, not talent. Seven titles just happen to fall in his lap while taking a stroll. If you have achieved anything substantial, you would not say these things. As you would recognize how bloody hard it is to attain one, not to talk of seven. You clearly can not stand his success in the sport. We have been here before.

I don't hear you saying the same for Alonso who is even older.

[Bagwan]

Well of course, achievement counts for nothing nowadays. As you say it was luck, not talent. Seven titles just happen to fall in his lap while taking a stroll. If you have achieved anything substantial, you would not say these things. As you would recognize how bloody hard it is to attain one, not to talk of seven. You clearly can not stand his success in the sport. We have been here before.

I don't hear you saying the same for Alonso who is even older.

Alonso is not being beaten by his team mate .

[Nitrodaze]

Alonso is not being beaten by his team mate .

Wel, it is well known how you feel about Hamilton so l would say no more to you about the matter.

[Bagwan]

Wel, it is well known how you feel about Hamilton so l would say no more to you about the matter.

You're the one who said Lewis wasn't trying .

I would say , rather , that Lewis is having a hard time in a really difficult car .
Remember , George was used to tough cars when he came in , and Lewis was coming off years of domination cars .

Remember when Kimi couldn't drive the Lotus and they said he was finished ?
They soon forgot about all that when they sorted the steering , and he kept entertaining us for years .


Nobody is questioning that Hamilton is good .
And , I am not questioning whether he is trying as hard as he can to turn the car around .

[airshifter]

Well of course, achievement counts for nothing nowadays. As you say it was luck, not talent. Seven titles just happen to fall in his lap while taking a stroll. If you have achieved anything substantial, you would not say these things. As you would recognize how bloody hard it is to attain one, not to talk of seven. You clearly can not stand his success in the sport. We have been here before.

I don't hear you saying the same for Alonso who is even older.

I've done more than enough substantial stuff in my life to know none of it comes easy, yet I say these things.

I don't dislike any of the drivers really, some of them have had crap personalities or abilities but they are better drivers than the rest of us for the most part. But I simply don't idolize any of them for their accomplishments either. None of them did it in crap cars, and IMHO often the drivers with great track records against the other top drivers in top cars can easily make a bad move and end up with lesser records in a hurry.

If you want to build shrines to drivers go ahead, but don't think I'm going to do the same.

And if you actually paid attention, I mention Alonso right after Lewis. The names mean nothing other than some press coverage if they aren't driving well. Their value to the top teams will have a lot more to do with their driving then it will with press coverage.

[Nitrodaze]

I've done more than enough substantial stuff in my life to know none of it comes easy, yet I say these things.

I don't dislike any of the drivers really, some of them have had crap personalities or abilities but they are better drivers than the rest of us for the most part. But I simply don't idolize any of them for their accomplishments either. None of them did it in crap cars, and IMHO often the drivers with great track records against the other top drivers in top cars can easily make a bad move and end up with lesser records in a hurry.

If you want to build shrines to drivers go ahead, but don't think I'm going to do the same.

And if you actually paid attention, I mention Alonso right after Lewis. The names mean nothing other than some press coverage if they aren't driving well. Their value to the top teams will have a lot more to do with their driving then it will with press coverage.

Recognizing and appreciating talent is not idolizing as you put it. If you are able to properly appreciate talent without reservation, you would see that.

[F1nKS]

Wel, it is well known how you feel about Hamilton so l would say no more to you about the matter.

LOL, you keep threatening to take you ball and run off, but you always come back an insult anybody who has contrarian view against yours. The world would be so much better if we could
properly appreciate talent without reservation like you can. :p

[Nitrodaze]

LOL, you keep threatening to take you ball and run off, but you always come back an insult anybody who has contrarian view against yours. The world would be so much better if we could like you can. :p

Yawn!

[airshifter]

Recognizing and appreciating talent is not idolizing as you put it. If you are able to properly appreciate talent without reservation, you would see that.

Once again, reading comprehension appears to escape your arguments. Having said they are all better drivers than us appreciates their talents. But a fast car isn't a talent, it's luck of the choices they have usually.

[Bagwan]

I don't think anybody here questions whether Hamilton is talented .

[Zico]

I don't think anybody here questions whether Hamilton is talented .

Hamilton is indeed a great driver, even if he did have the best car for the majority of his career, his many great performances over the years speaks for itself.

The GOAT term hasn't been used in the same sentence on here for quite a long time now.. so maybe the penny has finally dropped for one or two of us?

[The Black Knight]

Hamilton is indeed a great driver, even if he did have the best car for the majority of his career, his many great performances over the years speaks for itself.

The GOAT term hasn't been used in the same sentence on here for quite a long time now.. so maybe the penny has finally dropped for one or two of us?

From my POV he has too many off days to be considered the GOAT and I feel he is lacking overall about 0.1-0.2 tenths per lap to the true GOAT's prime pace. Hamilton is not the best of all time that others claim.

[Nitrodaze]

Hamilton is indeed a great driver, even if he did have the best car for the majority of his career, his many great performances over the years speaks for itself.

The GOAT term hasn't been used in the same sentence on here for quite a long time now.. so maybe the penny has finally dropped for one or two of us?

Hamilton's career is not over, so we should not discount him too early. Statistically, he currently is. On pace, it is impossible to really say, especially as Verstappen is laying down some astonishing times at the moment. To be fair, he was in a faster car but not with slow teammates. Even in the fast Mercedes, he still had to beat Rosberg who was super fast and Bottas was not shabby either. Certainly much different to any other multiple-world champion in recent memory, for instance, Verstappen who had it all laid out for him over the last two seasons, with his teammate assisting him at every turn.

[Firstgear]

That's why I place more worth in Hamilton's titles. He probably did have the best car for many years (like most champions). But unlike guys like Max and MS, Lewis is at least willing to battle for the title with his teammate.

[Used to be Starter]

Being in the right car is, and has always been, the most important thing in F1. Getting yourself in that car is how Champions are made.

[Nitrodaze]

Being in the right car is, and has always been, the most important thing in F1. Getting yourself in that car is how Champions are made.

Vettel was in a dominant Ferrari in 2018. He did not win the championship but Hamilton in a less dominant car won it.

[airshifter]

Being in the right car is, and has always been, the most important thing in F1. Getting yourself in that car is how Champions are made.

But even with the talent luck plays a big part as well. Look how many drivers moved at the wrong time and the team rebounded, or the team they were heading to tanked suddenly in comparison to others.



As for the whole GOAT thing, really the only thing we can compare is drivers in equal machinery. And often they shuffle enough that it's rare to see the very top drivers in equal machinery. Over time they might spend a season or two together, but usually it doesn't last long. And if you do compare the drivers on the same team, often the "greatest" suddenly is proven to be "greatest" only when teamed with lesser drivers. The ones that are really on top fare just as well when put up against the best at the same team.

[Nitrodaze]

But even with the talent luck plays a big part as well. Look how many drivers moved at the wrong time and the team rebounded, or the team they were heading to tanked suddenly in comparison to others.

As for the whole GOAT thing, really the only thing we can compare is drivers in equal machinery. And often they shuffle enough that it's rare to see the very top drivers in equal machinery. Over time they might spend a season or two together, but usually it doesn't last long. And if you do compare the drivers on the same team, often the "greatest" suddenly is proven to be "greatest" only when teamed with lesser drivers. The ones that are really on top fare just as well when put up against the best at the same team.

Unfortunately, that is an impossible way of determining greatness. In any equipment-based competition, competitors would use different equipment of various degrees of performance. This is usually due to poor choices or a lack of adequate funding. The level of funding available to competitors mostly translates to perceived talent by the backers of the competitor. Even among those with the best equipment, one individual always stands out and dominates his category. And he is respected and revered for his achievement. That has always been the nature of competition through the ages. And that is also how the world we live in works. Where some with advanced technology, sophisticated military might and wealth dominate and undermine others with lesser in comparison. You would not hear anyone saying if you give every nation the same technology, military capability and the same wealth, then we would be able to determine which is really the greatest nation ever.

While that is clearly nonsensical, it is clear that competitors that succeed do so because they have inherent exceptional talent, a judgement that is calculated to ensure success and an ability to deliver exceptional performances when the opportunity to shine presents itself. That is the common attribute of the greatest in whatever equipment-based sport there is. But you would not know this as you have not achieved anything of that stature else you would not say these things. There is luck and there is pure genius, l hope one day you can see the difference.

[Used to be Starter]

Vettel was in a dominant Ferrari in 2018. He did not win the championship but Hamilton in a less dominant car won it.

If you'll check, I said "most important" and not "only".

[Nitrodaze]

If you'll check, I said "most important" and not "only".

yes you did :-)

[airshifter]

Unfortunately, that is an impossible way of determining greatness. In any equipment-based competition, competitors would use different equipment of various degrees of performance. This is usually due to poor choices or a lack of adequate funding. The level of funding available to competitors mostly translates to perceived talent by the backers of the competitor. Even among those with the best equipment, one individual always stands out and dominates his category. And he is respected and revered for his achievement. That has always been the nature of competition through the ages. And that is also how the world we live in works. Where some with advanced technology, sophisticated military might and wealth dominate and undermine others with lesser in comparison. You would not hear anyone saying if you give every nation the same technology, military capability and the same wealth, then we would be able to determine which is really the greatest nation ever.

Impossible? Maybe for those that didn't follow the sport, but in reality often the great drivers will at some point find themselves in equal machinery over time. Right now Verstappen is the only WDC on the grid to have not faced another previous or future WDC in the same car. So no, it's not even close to any impossible comparison. With any car superiority taken out of the picture, often they suddenly become much more equal, so fans of any particular driver tend to shy away from such comparison.

With so few choices on the grid, every driver makes their limited choices based on seats available to them and the attached conditions. None has just jumped team to team at will, but usually the best have at least some choices over time. Compare any driver you wish to the other top drivers in equal machinery, and show me domination. It really doesn't exist and if often the reason one of the drivers leaves a team.




While that is clearly nonsensical, it is clear that competitors that succeed do so because they have inherent exceptional talent, a judgement that is calculated to ensure success and an ability to deliver exceptional performances when the opportunity to shine presents itself. That is the common attribute of the greatest in whatever equipment-based sport there is. But you would not know this as you have not achieved anything of that stature else you would not say these things. There is luck and there is pure genius, l hope one day you can see the difference.

What is nonsensical is thinking that any driver on the grid is psychic. They make their choices and hope for the best. They might walk into a declining team, walk into a rising team, or walk into a stagnant team. If it were pure genius with such amazing insight, most would have as many WDC's as they have years in the sport.

As for your personal jabs, you need to understand something. To insult someone they must give worth to your words. Being you know nothing about me or my personal accomplishments, I give your statement no worth, thus am not at all insulted. It just goes to show what a childish level you will go to when others differ in opinion from you.



The F1 grid isn't going to turn sideways because your favorite driver is unhappy. If he reaches the point of looking elsewhere, he might get offers. But the same if true of most other drivers. If pure genius was involved, he would have left Merc before last year started.

[Nitrodaze]

Impossible? Maybe for those that didn't follow the sport, but in reality often the great drivers will at some point find themselves in equal machinery over time. Right now Verstappen is the only WDC on the grid to have not faced another previous or future WDC in the same car. So no, it's not even close to any impossible comparison. With any car superiority taken out of the picture, often they suddenly become much more equal, so fans of any particular driver tend to shy away from such comparison.

My impression of your level of understanding of the sport is not an insult, but an opinion. You can prove me wrong with a good argument to correct my opinion. Your argument here does not align with your previous statement which required all drivers to be in equal machinery to establish who is the greatest. If we go with your revised statement, only exceptional drivers will rise into competitive cars racing at the sharp end of the grid. Which incidentally was my argument. So by your revised statement, the greatest drivers are the drivers that dominate the sharp end of the grid consistently above any other before them.


What is nonsensical is thinking that any driver on the grid is psychic. They make their choices and hope for the best. They might walk into a declining team, walk into a rising team, or walk into a stagnant team. If it were pure genius with such amazing insight, most would have as many WDC's as they have years in the sport.

It is interesting that you think drivers do not plan their career paths carefully. In your view, they blindly move teams and hope for the best. Which is nonsense. The ability of drivers to move teams is dependent on their perceive worth which is based on the perceived or rated level of performance. Drivers rated highly would seek to join teams also rated highly [Verstapenn, Perez, Sainz etc]. Drivers with lower ratings would try to find the best possible seat available at the time they are on the market to move teams [Bottas, Albon etc]. But highly-rated drivers tend to cause a stir which usually causes a number of consequential moves resulting from their move [Vettel leaving for example].

And these drivers have an army of advisors and career planners to steer them to where they have a good chance of fighting for the championship. If we take the career of two Mclaren drivers in 2004, both capable of being multiple world champions and both are one of the fiercest drivers on the grid. One becomes seven times world champion, and the other stagnated at double world champion with an open knowledge that if their career paths were reversed, the double world champion may likely be a nine-time world champion today. This did not happen by chance but by calculated risk.

You are yet to convince me that you know what you are talking about.

[airshifter]

My impression of your level of understanding of the sport is not an insult, but an opinion. You can prove me wrong with a good argument to correct my opinion. Your argument here does not align with your previous statement which required all drivers to be in equal machinery to establish who is the greatest. If we go with your revised statement, only exceptional drivers will rise into competitive cars racing at the sharp end of the grid. Which incidentally was my argument. So by your revised statement, the greatest drivers are the drivers that dominate the sharp end of the grid consistently above any other before them.

My actual statement was this....






As for the whole GOAT thing, really the only thing we can compare is drivers in equal machinery. And often they shuffle enough that it's rare to see the very top drivers in equal machinery. Over time they might spend a season or two together, but usually it doesn't last long. And if you do compare the drivers on the same team, often the "greatest" suddenly is proven to be "greatest" only when teamed with lesser drivers. The ones that are really on top fare just as well when put up against the best at the same team.


Nowhere do I say all drivers must be in the same machinery, but I do say that it's the best comparison. Nobody has disagreed that usually the best drivers end up with chances in the best cars, as their talents make them more desired. And we all know that at times lesser drivers end up in better cars for various reasons, as well as drivers that probably wouldn't be on the grid by pure merit, yet they have enough money to influence team desicions.

I'll gladly stand by my comparison of the best in equal machinery. Even in lesser machinery it's well established that the first person you have to worry about beating in F1 is your teammate. And when compared in that manner, often the drivers are somehow much more equal, and the machinery part of the equation is brought more to the forefront.


Your statement of.....


Even among those with the best equipment, one individual always stands out and dominates his category. And he is respected and revered for his achievement.

..... might be true of those that don't consider the car part of the picture. But since we all know the car IS a great part of the picture I'm sure the team bosses and such do as well. If you disagree that the car plays such a big part, name one driver in recent history that "dominated his category" when faced with another driver of high caliber in the same car. It hasn't happened any time recently. Often they don't really even dominate the lesser drivers that they share cars with.

Lewis has teamed with Fernando and Jenson before moving to Merc. Which of the two did he dominate?









It is interesting that you think drivers do not plan their career paths carefully. In your view, they blindly move teams and hope for the best. Which is nonsense. The ability of drivers to move teams is dependent on their perceive worth which is based on the perceived or rated level of performance. Drivers rated highly would seek to join teams also rated highly [Verstapenn, Perez, Sainz etc]. Drivers with lower ratings would try to find the best possible seat available at the time they are on the market to move teams [Bottas, Albon etc]. But highly-rated drivers tend to cause a stir which usually causes a number of consequential moves resulting from their move [Vettel leaving for example].

And these drivers have an army of advisors and career planners to steer them to where they have a good chance of fighting for the championship. If we take the career of two Mclaren drivers in 2004, both capable of being multiple world champions and both are one of the fiercest drivers on the grid. One becomes seven times world champion, and the other stagnated at double world champion with an open knowledge that if their career paths were reversed, the double world champion may likely be a nine-time world champion today. This did not happen by chance but by calculated risk.

You are yet to convince me that you know what you are talking about.

"Calculated risk" is a best guess, based on a number of factors for any driver. From there it's the luck of the how the team performs, not just the driver. Alonso didn't lose any driving talent because he went to a lesser team, nor did Lewis gain driving talent by going to Merc. I've said upthread that many of them could have changed records based on the luck of their choices, and you are saying pretty much the same. Twisting words to try to make an argument does nothing for any real discussion, and obviously nobody has claimed that they take a blind stab in the dark. But just like the rest of us, they don't know who the top team will be next year on any regular basis. If they did, they could probably make all their fortunes in betting and not have to drive.

The difference as I see it is that I accept it's a roll of the dice for their choices when all is said and done. You seem to think that those choices are brilliance when they work, and poor decisions when they don't. But you make exceptions to when a driver you likes ends up in other than a top car.... suddenly then it's the teams fault. If any driver was brilliant enough to always have the answer, they would probably have a lot more titles than anyone on the grid currently does. That applies to all of them.


I know your logic is often skewed by your driver preferences, but if the drivers decisions are so calculated as you say, why would Hamilton suddenly be worth ten times what they pay him when by comparison his teammate and four other drivers apparently made much more brilliant decisions last here. Wouldn't it be more logical that those making better decisions would go up in value? I'm sure no logical discussion will convince you that anyone other than your opinion knows what they are talking about. So we'll all just assume that Ferrari is getting ready to offer Lewis the half a billion contract... :laugh:

[Nitrodaze]

My actual statement was this....




Nowhere do I say all drivers must be in the same machinery, but I do say that it's the best comparison. Nobody has disagreed that usually the best drivers end up with chances in the best cars, as their talents make them more desired. And we all know that at times lesser drivers end up in better cars for various reasons, as well as drivers that probably wouldn't be on the grid by pure merit, yet they have enough money to influence team desicions.

I'll gladly stand by my comparison of the best in equal machinery. Even in lesser machinery it's well established that the first person you have to worry about beating in F1 is your teammate. And when compared in that manner, often the drivers are somehow much more equal, and the machinery part of the equation is brought more to the forefront.


Your statement of.....



..... might be true of those that don't consider the car part of the picture. But since we all know the car IS a great part of the picture I'm sure the team bosses and such do as well. If you disagree that the car plays such a big part, name one driver in recent history that "dominated his category" when faced with another driver of high caliber in the same car. It hasn't happened any time recently. Often they don't really even dominate the lesser drivers that they share cars with.

Lewis has teamed with Fernando and Jenson before moving to Merc. Which of the two did he dominate?








"Calculated risk" is a best guess, based on a number of factors for any driver. From there it's the luck of the how the team performs, not just the driver. Alonso didn't lose any driving talent because he went to a lesser team, nor did Lewis gain driving talent by going to Merc. I've said upthread that many of them could have changed records based on the luck of their choices, and you are saying pretty much the same. Twisting words to try to make an argument does nothing for any real discussion, and obviously nobody has claimed that they take a blind stab in the dark. But just like the rest of us, they don't know who the top team will be next year on any regular basis. If they did, they could probably make all their fortunes in betting and not have to drive.

The difference as I see it is that I accept it's a roll of the dice for their choices when all is said and done. You seem to think that those choices are brilliance when they work, and poor decisions when they don't. But you make exceptions to when a driver you likes ends up in other than a top car.... suddenly then it's the teams fault. If any driver was brilliant enough to always have the answer, they would probably have a lot more titles than anyone on the grid currently does. That applies to all of them.


I know your logic is often skewed by your driver preferences, but if the drivers decisions are so calculated as you say, why would Hamilton suddenly be worth ten times what they pay him when by comparison his teammate and four other drivers apparently made much more brilliant decisions last here. Wouldn't it be more logical that those making better decisions would go up in value? I'm sure no logical discussion will convince you that anyone other than your opinion knows what they are talking about. So we'll all just assume that Ferrari is getting ready to offer Lewis the half a billion contract... :laugh:


I am sorry to say that it is you who is heavily biased against Hamilton in particular. While we talk generally about drivers, you pointedly direct your arguments at Hamilton. And you feign innocence when that aspect of your argument is pointed out and rebuffed. The very essence of what we were discussing is that the best drivers get the best cars owned by the best teams. The best teams with the best cars would only want the best drivers in their cars and your argument goes against this very normal and traditional aspect of F1. What you are doing is faulting drivers and Hamilton in particular for being such a talent that deserves and has attained a great car in a great team. Your argument does not make any sense and is clearly very biased.

[airshifter]

Since you think I'm picking on your hero, I'll bold and italicize plenty of statements which includes all of them. If reading comprehension isn't your strong point, maybe in the future I will provide a list of all drivers so that you understand what I mean by saying "all of the" or "none of them". For most those types of statements are obvious.





It happens. Teams screw it up, drivers screw it up. None of them are winning championships in average cars, and none of them dominate without the best cars. Had luck always come his way and he had always been mistake free, Lewis would probably have 9 WDC's now. But he managed to snatch 7 of them, which is still a great record.







None of them did it in crap cars, and IMHO often the drivers with great track records against the other top drivers in top cars can easily make a bad move and end up with lesser records in a hurry.

If you want to build shrines to drivers go ahead, but don't think I'm going to do the same.

And if you actually paid attention, I mention Alonso right after Lewis. The names mean nothing other than some press coverage if they aren't driving well. Their value to the top teams will have a lot more to do with their driving then it will with press coverage.



And if you do compare the drivers on the same team, often the "greatest" suddenly is proven to be "greatest" only when teamed with lesser drivers. The ones that are really on top fare just as well when put up against the best at the same team.



With any car superiority taken out of the picture, often they suddenly become much more equal, so fans of any particular driver tend to shy away from such comparison.
......

What is nonsensical is thinking that any driver on the grid is psychic.



Now I'm certain that you can easily tell us which other WDCs Lewis dominated in equal cars, since by your assertion that is always the case. We'll wait patiently for your attempts as misdirection or finding a way of considering small points margins complete domination of a driver. If that were the case, there might be others that think he is worth 10 times what he is paid as you have claimed in this thread. But being he is one of the highest paid in the sport, even then I doubt many people would join that thinking.

And they wouldn't think it if it were Fernando, Kimi, Jenson, Nico, or Max either, unless they somehow placed a favorite driver as ungodly talented above all drivers, even when the record showed otherwise.

As for the best teams only wanting the best drivers in their cars.... you might want to take a look at the history of who drove where. They often want ONE of the best in their cars, no doubt, but two hasn't happened a lot in recent years.

[Nitrodaze]

Since you think I'm picking on your hero, I'll bold and italicize plenty of statements which includes all of them. If reading comprehension isn't your strong point, maybe in the future I will provide a list of all drivers so that you understand what I mean by saying "all of the" or "none of them". For most those types of statements are obvious.














Now I'm certain that you can easily tell us which other WDCs Lewis dominated in equal cars, since by your assertion that is always the case. We'll wait patiently for your attempts as misdirection or finding a way of considering small points margins complete domination of a driver. If that were the case, there might be others that think he is worth 10 times what he is paid as you have claimed in this thread. But being he is one of the highest paid in the sport, even then I doubt many people would join that thinking.

And they wouldn't think it if it were Fernando, Kimi, Jenson, Nico, or Max either, unless they somehow placed a favorite driver as ungodly talented above all drivers, even when the record showed otherwise.

As for the best teams only wanting the best drivers in their cars.... you might want to take a look at the history of who drove where. They often want ONE of the best in their cars, no doubt, but two hasn't happened a lot in recent years.

Now l get it, you are having a dig because you think Hamilton is my hero. Then please have a go at Schumacher and Senna as well. I wonder what you would have to say about these great world champions.

[Zico]

Now l get it, you are having a dig because you think Hamilton is my hero. Then please have a go at Schumacher and Senna as well. I wonder what you would have to say about these great world champions.


Dude, Hamilton is your hero.

[airshifter]

Now l get it, you are having a dig because you think Hamilton is my hero. Then please have a go at Schumacher and Senna as well. I wonder what you would have to say about these great world champions.

Once again, terms like "none" or "all" used by me are all inclusive. No driver is above the car, with the possible exception of freak wet racing letting a lesser combo do well.


What about that domination you claim? Where is it for any of them in equal cars?

[Nitrodaze]

Once again, terms like "none" or "all" used by me are all inclusive. No driver is above the car, with the possible exception of freak wet racing letting a lesser combo do well.


What about that domination you claim? Where is it for any of them in equal cars?

Many F1 champions have won championships with second-best cars, sometimes it is also the guy behind the wheel. It is simply the excellence of a man-machine synergy that produces greatness. And sometimes, the man must drag an inferior car to the front of the pack.

[ouvreur]

Many F1 champions have won championships with second-best cars.
If you could please name them, that would be cool.

'Many' implies more than just three or four.

I can't think who they might be, at least since the 1970s.

[Zico]

If you could please name them, that would be cool.

'Many' implies more than just three or four.

I can't think who they might be, at least since the 1970s.

Easy, Lewis Hamilton 2014 &15 and from 2017-2020. He actually outperformed the cars, it's well documented... here.

[Nitrodaze]

Easy, Lewis Hamilton 2014 &15 and from 2017-2020. He actually outperformed the cars, it's well documented... here.

And nearly did in 2021 if not for Masi madness. Jochen Rindt, James Hunt, Raikkonen, Senna and many more.

[Zico]

And nearly did in 2021 if not for Masi madness. Jochen Rindt, James Hunt, Raikkonen, Senna and many more.

My comment was firmly tongue in cheek...
Merc had a humongous performance advantage over everyone else for most of these years.
You know it.. so why pretend it was all because of Lewis? This is why I can never take you seriously.

[Nitrodaze]

My comment was firmly tongue in cheek...
Merc had a humongous performance advantage over everyone else for most of these years.
You know it.. so why pretend it was all because of Lewis? This is why I can never take you seriously.

I knew what you were up to buddy, hence the reverse tongue in cheek.

But seriously, Vettel in the Ferrari should have won in 2018 or 2019 when the Ferrari was marginally faster than the Mercedes in a straight line. Everyone l know harps about "if Alonso was in that Ferrari, he would have won one of those seasons!". There was very little doubt that Mercedes was on their back foot in 2021 but clawed forward to a winning poisition until the very last lap of the season when it was snatched from Hamilton. But then again l am talking to a wall as you are blindsighted to anything Hamilton.

[airshifter]

My comment was firmly tongue in cheek...
Merc had a humongous performance advantage over everyone else for most of these years.
You know it.. so why pretend it was all because of Lewis? This is why I can never take you seriously.

Well we all know the Merc was a crap car in the turbo hybrid era don't we? :laugh:

[Zico]

I knew what you were up to buddy, hence the reverse tongue in cheek.

But seriously, Vettel in the Ferrari should have won in 2018 or 2019 when the Ferrari was marginally faster than the Mercedes in a straight line. Everyone l know harps about "if Alonso was in that Ferrari, he would have won one of those seasons!". There was very little doubt that Mercedes was on their back foot in 2021 but clawed forward to a winning poisition until the very last lap of the season when it was snatched from Hamilton. But then again l am talking to a wall as you are blindsighted to anything Hamilton.


Williams were also regularly topping a lot of speed traps in the last 2 seasons, It means absolutely nothing in itself.

Lewis is a great driver, no question but you take it way too far with the status you place on him and it wears a bit thin after a while.
Merc was the bigger star by far over that period but you refuse to acknowledge that fact.

The one performance metric we can measure him by is his record against his team mates... and while its not bad, its not 'scarecrow' either.

[Nitrodaze]

Williams were also regularly topping a lot of speed traps in the last 2 seasons, It means absolutely nothing in itself.

Lewis is a great driver, no question but you take it way too far with the status you place on him and it wears a bit thin after a while.
Merc was the bigger star by far over that period but you refuse to acknowledge that fact.

The one performance metric we can measure him by is his record against his team mates... and while its not bad, its not 'scarecrow' either.

Ha ha, l am surprised you said that. Look at my post history, you would find alot of accolades from me about Mercedes.

[Nitrodaze]

So what happens if the Mercedes upgrade turns out to be another flop, l wonder? Would Sir Lewis make the unexpected move to Ferrari?

The air in the Mercedes paddock must be tense with anticipation of improvement. As Mercedes fans and drivers wait with bated breath to see what the actual improvement might be. Expectations of a massive step forward have been carefully managed but chances of a surprise hike in performance are not discounted. Monaco would give us a clear idea of the pecking order for the rest of the season. I expect Redbull would not be too troubled by whatever the outcome is.

[airshifter]

Lewis can only go where he is given offers. I don't know of any standing offers from any teams at this point, and likely most will assume he isn't planning any moves until or unless he announces it. Being that Merc at leading Ferrari in the WCC right now, I would think it would be an unwise move for any driver, and especially one hoping to up their record while still in the sport.

Merc seem completely out of sort at the moment. They are even sending conflicting statements as to what they have or haven't figured out with the car. I think anyone expecting any massive jumps is going to be in for a disappointing reality. With aero importance limited at Monaco, they might have a better shot of a good result if they can get the tires turned on and do well in qually. If they don't get the drag and suspension issues sorted out, I can't see them giving AM any more challenge than they are now unless Lance has more bad weekends.

[N. Jones]

Mercedes needs to give up the no side pod as it is not working.

[F1nKS]

Mercedes needs to give up the no side pod as it is not working.

Supposedly they have. Their new design was suppose to have been unveiled this weekend. It will be interesting to see if they unveil it Monaco or wait till the Spain race.

[The Black Knight]

I have a feeling Lewis will go to Ferrari - there have been numerous times over the last year or two where he complained about the engineers not listening to him and listening to his feedback. You can forgive Mercedes for getting it wrong one year but it's now two years in a row they've missed the mark. And from Hamilton's point of view he told the engineers it was the wrong decision to continue pursuing this concept and they still went ahead with it. He clearly stated recently that Mercedes didn't listen to him. In these circumstances I can't blame him for leaving.

[Nitrodaze]

Lewis can only go where he is given offers. I don't know of any standing offers from any teams at this point, and likely most will assume he isn't planning any moves until or unless he announces it. Being that Merc at leading Ferrari in the WCC right now, I would think it would be an unwise move for any driver, and especially one hoping to up their record while still in the sport.

Merc seem completely out of sort at the moment. They are even sending conflicting statements as to what they have or haven't figured out with the car. I think anyone expecting any massive jumps is going to be in for a disappointing reality. With aero importance limited at Monaco, they might have a better shot of a good result if they can get the tires turned on and do well in qually. If they don't get the drag and suspension issues sorted out, I can't see them giving AM any more challenge than they are now unless Lance has more bad weekends.

There are rumors that Ferrari may be putting together a package of around 40 Million Euros to lure him from Mercedes. I think Sir Lewis would create offers if he signals that he is open to them. Other talks are that he may go back to Mclaren to try to make a championship-winning car for the team where he started his career.

I think, if he decides to move, it would be to take on a new challenge of developing a championship-winning car with another team focused on him as Schumacher did at Ferrari. In such a situation, the question is which team is likely to be able to produce a championship-winning car and have the sort of money to attract Hamilton to them?

The Ferrari is very fast but lacking on reliability and aerodynamic quality. Under the scarlet red chassis is a car capable of winning championships with the right driver-engineer partnership. With the new leadership at Ferrari, there appears to be the sort of environment that may be conducive for the sort of clique that made Schumacher so successful with Ferrari. Mind you, that was a French team boss at the helm as well. I guess adding another British engineer to the picture may just recapture the Todt, Brawn magic.

Mclaren on the other hand is way too far off the mark of championship-winning capability at this point. Hence may be too much of a risk.

I think most Mercedes and Hamilton fans would prefer he remained at Mercedes but on condition that Mercedes prove that they have stopped the rut and are improving performance enough to at least win races.

[gm99]

Ferrari always think the driver is the problem - that's why they swapped Raikkönen for Alonso, Vettel for Alonso, Sainz for Vettel and now maybe Leclerc for Hamilton. The reality is that they have for 15+ years failed to build a car that's both fast and reliable.
Michael was 27 when he made the move to Ferrari, Lewis will be 39 next season. That might not be the ideal stage of your career to start building up something new. I also expect the driver to have less of an impact on car development than it did in the unlimited-testing-at-Fiorano-days of the Schumacher era.