WRC rally splits end? [Archive]

JAM

21st May 2007, 11:39

After the end on WRCcom radio the next step is to end with splits stage times. Acording to Martin Holmes on his weekly column in portuguese Autosport newspaper, this weekend the organizers were informed by ISC that if they want split times they have to pay it :D

Ohlaalaaa were the WRC is going?

It seems that organizers will refuse to pay the service, because they argued that already pay a big amount of money to have a WRC rally. Now we understand why WRC is trying to go to the arabic countries... they have money for everything and don't care to pay for everything. There is a good place indeed to the ones who deal with WRC money.

GigiGalliNo1

21st May 2007, 12:16

:D

:( bout paying! i pay enough for wrc+ so they better f**k**g include it in the service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

raybak

21st May 2007, 12:50

If they don't include it then I want a refund. It starts getting very serious when there are plenty of people who have paid there money for WRC+ adn then are not receiving what they have paid for. It actually comes down to fraudulent advertising. The ACCC in Australia would have a field day with them!!!

Ray

DonJippo

21st May 2007, 13:30

Acording to Martin Holmes on his weekly column in portuguese Autosport newspaper, this weekend the organizers were informed by ISC that if they want split times they have to pay it

Why would any organizer pay for the splits? It does not bring any new spectators to the event...

Livewireshock

21st May 2007, 16:09

This is as insane as Mr B. in F1. Automatically applying 10% to the fees for the previous years regardless of the service provided. All to line the pockets of himself regardless the effect on the quality of the sport.

Remember the green billboards at Grand Prix, all so his "digital" tv could sell the same trackside signage time & again with superimposed virtual TV billboards that were different pending on where you were or even change with each lap. Thankfully he failed.

In Australia, the Official Government Bureau of Meteorology tried to force tv networks to pay for rainfall patterns & other forecasts. Media outlets, such as the ABC, then boycotted giving that information out, telling the viewer why. Farmers & the general public soon had the BOM change it's mind & revert to free coverage.

I can see the ISC getting alot of egg on their face over this and it can only create a bad taste & distrust for the future. It only leads to "What's next?????"

Tomski

21st May 2007, 16:20

Just when the WRC struggling and needs all the help and promotion it can find, the bean counters decide its time to maximise their income. How charging, or increasing exisiting charges encourages people to want to use your product / service is beyond me. This coupled with the loss of WRR is not going to help anyone. I for one will not be signing up for WRC+!!

Peugeot206WRC

21st May 2007, 22:18

I think the split times is/was very interesting for me as audience when I cant visit the rally live.
When its gone, I probably wont follow it as before, specially now when the rallyradio also is gone :(
Watching the summary on tv dont beat the live stuff. Even though the cars is what I really wanna see.

Wonder how this will affect the drivers and their speed (if this is about them too).

SubaruNorway

21st May 2007, 22:23

You wont belive how mad i am right now :mad: whats wrong with people :confused:

ZequeArgentina

22nd May 2007, 00:07

Do you remember virtual spectator?
I did think rally found it way to make fans all arround the world to be able to follow "live" the event with this sort of technology, but somehow they did not maneged to make it work.

Splits are something so simpler in today state of the art, and they could not even make it work right???

Live TV broadcast is only possible in something like the a "eye in the Sky" New Zealand tryed last year, but virtual spectatrs could sure attract young people while complementing TV broadcasting (as it is today, daily brief plus some live stage, not only mike mousse stages)

WRC2006

22nd May 2007, 00:23

Nothing suprise me from WRC / FIA. I know they have a plan to kill the WRC.

JAM

22nd May 2007, 01:25

Some years ago a friend told me that DR being promoted to WRC TV Rights owner would be the end of WRC, after that he had entered in BAR team as a prize given by mr F1 BE. After that the Prodrive with a place in F1 was another prize given by Mr F1. All to slow down the WRC that at the end of 90's was very popular and could threat the F1 image of top world motorsport.

Mr BE don't like DR, but businesse are bussiness, and a enemy could be a good friend to help protecting BE bigger business: the F1.

At that time i tought it was a stupid idea, but yesterday my friend remember me this theory... and it starts to make sense. I don't see one only big measure in the last years that was really good to WRC. Things are falling and when they need work and efforts, iSC cuts the services to the bigger audiences . the ones that are around the world on the internet. DR don't have a executive place on WRC comission, but there are a lot of ways of make things a mess.

bowler

22nd May 2007, 02:49

losing the splits would be good.

The main customer is the teams (no use to organisers) and without them the drivers would have to drive cars and not worry about the other competitors.

ZequeArgentina

22nd May 2007, 02:53

The splits will not go away. If they are not official, just send someone mid stage with a radio/cell phone, a cronograph and give times to the team and so on.

ST205GT4

22nd May 2007, 05:10

Gordon Gecko is alive and well in the WRC!

The only thing I'd pay money to see, would be live on-board footage of whatever car I chose to view.

NRI

22nd May 2007, 09:24

losing the splits would be good.

The main customer is the teams (no use to organisers) and without them the drivers would have to drive cars and not worry about the other competitors.

You' re right. I agree your point of vue...

JAM

22nd May 2007, 09:54

The splits will not go away. If they are not official, just send someone mid stage with a radio/cell phone, a cronograph and give times to the team and so on.

That was the old way of working. :D Comparing to the past they only will replace the big posters in the midle of the stages by sms sent to the cars :D

Of course this means more people to the teams and more costs to them, but what has ISC to do with it? They are saving money and that's the only importante thing!

Splits are not only to the team, splits are to all the media and spectators that are not on stages. Spilts are a way of see more action on rallying. In a 20 stages rallye you have 20 moments of emotion, that is the end of the 20 stages. Withs splits you have emotion all the time.

23rd May 2007, 17:49

According to a report in today's Motorsport News, ISC are unwilling to spend any more time or effort on WRC as their ownership of the commercial rights ends in 2010. So it could get worse for the next 3 years....

I guess this means they are not interested in renewing, either that or they will aim for an early and cheap renewal to get things back on track.

A.F.F.

23rd May 2007, 19:47

Daniel

24th May 2007, 13:27

Who cares?????????????????????

Who cares about splits? Not me? Give me a proper explanation of why splits make rallying better and I'll change my tune. Rallying back in the 60's and 70's didn't have splits. Was it less boring then?

kleisj

24th May 2007, 14:06

I care!!! http://www.blifaloo.com/smilies_avatars/smile/smile_gold.gif Is nice if you can see online what is going on within an SS. Is more interesting than wait from the final stage time.

I payed once for WRC+ (just for one rally) and I wasn't impressed at all. I wouldn't pay for it again. Was too slow also. If a better service was offered I wouldn't have problem to pay for it.

janneppi

24th May 2007, 14:10

Daniel

24th May 2007, 14:26

Splits for those who have to spectate rallies behind computers are the only way to follow rally even with some live feel to it, i can't imagine it being very exiting to read about a rally two weeks after it was over. :)
In the bigger scheme of things it's inconsequential :) We want good rallying and the splits have little to do with "fixing" the WRC and making it a more attractive series.

janneppi

24th May 2007, 15:01

In the bigger scheme rallying is inconsequential. :p :
I have disagree with your about splits not being an attraction, I doubt I'm terribly wrong in saying that lot's of people do follow them.

jparker

24th May 2007, 15:46

The problem with split times is that they don't attract sponsors, therefore someone has to pay for it. Enforcing that payment however it's very difficult (if not impossible) because the info becomes widely available and most rally folks are getting it for free, therefore not workable solution. At the same time every sport is exiting to follow if you know what's going on each moment of the race. So, what do we do? I think TV exposure is the answer, extensive live coverage will bring tons of sponsors and we will enjoy live rallying (splits included) for free. That's the way it's done with all other sports.

Daniel

24th May 2007, 15:54

In the bigger scheme rallying is inconsequential. :p :
I have disagree with your about splits not being an attraction, I doubt I'm terribly wrong in saying that lot's of people do follow them.
This forum was just as popular before splits came about and people were still able to follow the rally online :)

janneppi

24th May 2007, 17:15

I'd much rather glance through the splits than read 30 pages of people posting the exact same stage times and asking does anyone know the stage times. ;)
For the armhair follower it's the most important way to keep up with how the rally is going and perhaps ever try to make some sense in how drivers go through long stages. It's much better than watching Diagnosis Murder on telly.

If the technology to easily broadcast split times directly to viewers would have existed 30 years ago it would have been used and we would now concider it a complete must to have.

Daniel

24th May 2007, 18:53

L5->R5/CR

24th May 2007, 20:23

My gripe about the loss of the splits is this.

We as supporters of the sport are loosing a product. The lost of this product won't result in diminshed costs for teams or organizers. It won't decrease costs or increase entries. There will be no benefit to the loss of this service other than improving the bottom line for the greedy managers at ISC (I have lots of stories I simply cannot share about this).

ISC keeps forcing the WRC away from rallying and keeps screwing up the commercial aspects of the sport for the pure and simple reason of making themselves money. The problem with the WRC is the corporatism that has become pervasive in the administration of the series which has caused the sporting value and the subsequent public interest in the sport to errode.

The loss of Rally Radio and the splits is just the beginning of the culling of features and support items for the sake of private proffit at the cost of the championship in general.

A.F.F.

24th May 2007, 20:45

ISC needs an owner who is a realistic to see that WRC will never be the same as F1 and therefore it's useless to try to reach that visibility.

David Richards has always been a minion to Big Bernie. Whatever Bernie has, Richards has to have too. Whatever Bernie does, Richards has to do it too.

When I first joined this forum over four years ago, this problem was already then at hand.

I have never trusted David's commitment to WRC which is odd, since he has been a codriver. Some weird and twisted way he has always seem to be more interested in big scene of F1 circus :mark:

I don't care what the resources are to cover rallying in TV as long it has been done with passion and properly. Now ISC is wasting it's money and our time. Why don't they sell the TV-rights to someone more willing?

gloomyDAY

25th May 2007, 00:24

jparker

25th May 2007, 06:25

I had a sense of relief once I read your post.

Well said! :)

I'm grad you feel this way, but relief from what? From the fact that we are not getting split times anymore? :) We all know that more TV coverage is very unlikely, so we are toasted. WRR will not be good solution, but probably that's what is coming. Which is sad. I agree with janneppi, we can't feel the heartbeat of the race without split times. Have you noticed how F1 teams follow the race? They have live TV, cars are passing by, but they still keep their eyes at the split/lap times.

janneppi

25th May 2007, 07:10

OK well you go read old rally threads with splits on them and get all worked up over that and I'll just follow the WRC thanks.....

The audience the WRC needs is not a load of people pressing F5 on rally-live.com, it needs people to watch on TV and people to travel to the rallies. Splits don't help with that in any measurable amount....
What makes you think people who watch the splits don't watch the tv-programs if they are available?

Rallying on TV (apart from very few stages) isn't live in this reality, perhaps you have your own reality where you can attend all the rallies and watch them on TV at the same time. :p :

Daniel

25th May 2007, 07:56

What makes you think people who watch the splits don't watch the tv-programs if they are available?

Rallying on TV (apart from very few stages) isn't live in this reality, perhaps you have your own reality where you can attend all the rallies and watch them on TV at the same time. :p :
What makes you think that I said that they don't? :mark:

Whether or not they have splits or not shouldn't really have any effect on people. If someone doesn't want to follow the WRC anymore because there are no splits then "I say goodbye and good riddance, you are not a real fan of the WRC".

At the end of the day all that matters in the WRC is the time at the end of the stage. Back 6 years ago when I joined this forum we were just grateful to have online stagetimes and to be able to see who won a stage almost instantly.

Useless technology like Virtual Spectator and splits does not make the WRC more exciting. Technology is what makes the WRC boring and frankly the less technology the better! As someone said it will mean that a team can't just call their driver up and say "you've lost .5 seconds to Gronholm on the 3rd split, you need to go faster" which should make for a bit more flat out driving. Of course teams will still have their own splits in the form of people with stopwatches on stage but who cares?

When I went to Finland in 2005 I didn't have splits on the stage and to be honest I didn't care. Rallying in itself is exciting. :mark:

janneppi

25th May 2007, 08:17

What makes you think that I said that they don't? :mark:
Whether or not they have splits or not shouldn't really have any effect on people. If someone doesn't want to follow the WRC anymore because there are no splits then "I say goodbye and good riddance, you are not a real fan of the WRC".
I don't think anyone is saying they will quit if splits are gone, i won't, I'll surely miss them because I like them,

At the end of the day all that matters in the WRC is the time at the end of the stage. Back 6 years ago when I joined this forum we were just grateful to have online stagetimes and to be able to see who won a stage almost instantly. And in the stone age people were satisfied with not being eaten by wolves everyday. :)
If the technology to broadcast information get's better, why on earth shouldn't we embrace it?

Useless technology like Virtual Spectator and splits does not make the WRC more exciting. Technology is what makes the WRC boring and frankly the less technology the better! As someone said it will mean that a team can't just call their driver up and say "you've lost .5 seconds to Gronholm on the 3rd split, you need to go faster" which should make for a bit more flat out driving. Of course teams will still have their own splits in the form of people with stopwatches on stage but who cares?Perhaps splits are useless to you, but certainly are't for me. How exactly do splits make the event boring for you?

Daniel

25th May 2007, 08:22

I don't think anyone is saying they will quit if splits are gone, i won't, I'll surely miss them because I like them,

And in the stone age people were satisfied with not being eaten by wolves everyday. :)
If the technology to broadcast information get's better, why on earth shouldn't we embrace it?
Perhaps splits are useless to you, but certainly are't for me. How exactly do splits make the event boring for you?
And Nokia developed a phone that detects lightning.

http://dailytech.com/Nokia+Designs+Phone+that+Detects+Lightning/article7438.htm

Not all technology is mindblowingly good and necessary for life to be good.

Splits make events boring because you have 100,000 posts on someone being .3 seconds quicker in the 1st split and people don't seem to talk about the big issues in the rally anymore.

janneppi

25th May 2007, 08:28

Splits make events boring because you have 100,000 posts on someone being .3 seconds quicker in the 1st split and people don't seem to talk about the big issues in the rally anymore.
But how do you know this when you are watching the cars go by in the stage and watching the event on tv? :p :
Surely you are not using some new fangled irrelevant technology like a discussion forum to follow rallies? ;)

Daniel

25th May 2007, 08:31

I didn't say they want people to watch TV while they're on the stage.....

janneppi

25th May 2007, 08:44

The smileys should be an indication i wasn't completely serious....

JAM

25th May 2007, 10:02

The audience the WRC needs is not a load of people pressing F5 on rally-live.com, it needs people to watch on TV and people to travel to the rallies. Splits don't help with that in any measurable amount....

But the important is that people won't travel to ALL rallyes, they travel to a few ones, on the others they could want a good tool to follow the rallyes.

A.F.F.

25th May 2007, 10:18

AndyRAC

25th May 2007, 11:04

When are people going to realise that live TV of WRC just doesn't work. All these changes; central service, compact routes, 9-5 hours were made for the benefit of TV. Has it worked, NO!!! Live TV for WRC doesn't work, the sooner ISC and FIA realise this the better, although Dave Richards obviously won't think this. I can't believe the way he's ruined this sport, trying to turn it into an F1 clone. Stop messing with the sport, there wasn't anything wrong with it, look at it now........

Daniel

25th May 2007, 11:49

But the important is that people won't travel to ALL rallyes, they travel to a few ones, on the others they could want a good tool to follow the rallyes.
Wouldn't you rather have more drivers, manufacturers and cars in the WRC? :mark:

That to me is the issue with the WRC at the moment and not the lack of splits.

Peugeot206WRC

25th May 2007, 12:05

That to me is the issue with the WRC at the moment and not the lack of splits.

haha, true.

But why removing something that just will make the possibility to follow the rallies from distance easier.
This sport needs audience or else it would be dead, im sure lot of them would drive alonde full speed in the forest even withouth audience, but thats where, especially me, dont want it to end.

Sure I want more cars and drivers, but that wouldnt care if I couldnt follow it since I dont travel all over the world to watch them live!
TV/video is the best way to follow the sport but I think we got so tiny/lack of coverage at the moment.
In Eurosport I only see some short videos of the leaders on some stages, some short interviews and commentaries.
The rallyradio and the splits gives me probably as much as the TV coverage at the moment even though they dont have any videos.

JAM

25th May 2007, 14:41

Wouldn't you rather have more drivers, manufacturers and cars in the WRC? :mark:

That to me is the issue with the WRC at the moment and not the lack of splits.

More cars only come with more ROI on WRC, and the ROI is only possible with more audiences. If you shut down the services that made possible at the audiences follow the rally virtually, then you are not working to have audiences. Rally radio closed, splits ended.

Next step? WRC without coverage by WRC? If that hapen you will also think that is a small issue?

WRC is made of big and small issues, but all are issues and all have their importance.

Daniel

25th May 2007, 15:06

Yes but Rally Radio was woefully bad. Hearing about what volume of ear wax Petter Solberg gets over a year or some other similarly inane fact is not interesting at all and in my view it actually detracts from the WRC!!!!!!!!

I agree that splits are nice to have but they by no means make the coverage. I can take or leave the splits tbh.

amberie

25th May 2007, 21:33

Too much info is better than the utter lack of info that we're getting now. For me, getting splits makes it seem more like a race. You can judge the pace of the cars. No WRR and no splits would just kill my rally weekend experience.
WRR is lighthearted, yes, but I personally find that better than frowning and complaining about the WRC all day. Maybe it's just me, but I thought sports were meant to be fun...

JAM

26th May 2007, 01:10

Maybe it's just me, but I thought sports were meant to be fun...

No it's not you, sports have to be fun, on stages or at home in front of the computer. Exccept for Daniel that usualy don't come to the internet when rallyes are runing. He comes only at the end of the leg see the overal classification :D

Daniel

26th May 2007, 01:21

No it's not you, sports have to be fun, on stages or at home in front of the computer. Exccept for Daniel that usualy don't come to the internet when rallyes are runing. He comes only at the end of the leg see the overal classification :D
I don't necessarily post on the forum when following a rally. Plus I have a life now too :)

jso1985

26th May 2007, 05:10

funny how we're making a big argument about WRC's unstoppable end(again) when the thread is about something that WRC didn't had for 20 years and now it was the thing that was keeping WRC alive... :laugh:

ok I know it was interesting to follow them but without them you can still follow the rally with stage times, right? whenever I have time that's the way I follow a rally, if I can't I'm happy seing the day results on 30 minutes on TV.

L5->R5/CR

26th May 2007, 05:28

Plus I have a life now too :)

Liar (http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117784)

Well maybe, but not for long...

Jaanus

1st June 2007, 13:15

Q: Martin Holmes (Martin Holmes Rallying, GB).
I wanted to ask the drivers and Mr Frequelin if they are happy that after Finland, there might not be any safety tracking devices in place?

Grönholm:
Maybe we need for safety yes, but split times, I don’t care. Safety side it’s not good and hopefully it won’t happen.

H. Solberg:
The same for me.

Villagra:
Pretty much the same, they’re good for safety.

Frequelin :
It’s important for safety, but it’s not only safety, it’s the split times. It’s possible to have times and really good times.

http://www.crash.net/feature_view~cid~4~id~11417~pid~1.htm