What's the cost of it?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

I'm doing my best to gather information about the cost of racing in various series. Now I wonder, what's the cost of doing only Indy? This is from the following perspectives;

a) buy a ride - how much is said to be needed for a top, mid and backmarker team?

b) buy a car & run it for yourself?

[FormerFF]

Read this:
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070414/SPORTS0107/704140468/1247/SPORTS

That's what it would cost to be a backmarker, at just Indy. To be a front runner, I've heard figures from 4 to 10 million per car per year.

[Colsanders]

The costs to sponsor a major Champ Car team to run at Indy is nothing for many corporate sponsors. The fact that few are biting reflects the lack of prestige and allure of the month of may enjoyed in days gone by.

[indycool]

It isn't the sponsors that aren't biting. The CC teams haven't entered the race. All the cars that made the field at Indy have some sponsorship. The TV rating for Indy will likely be higher than that of CC's whole season. Some years, it's been DOUBLE.

[Jonesi]

It isn't the sponsors that aren't biting. The CC teams haven't entered the race. All the cars that made the field at Indy have some sponsorship. The TV rating for Indy will likely be higher than that of CC's whole season. Some years, it's been DOUBLE.

Looking at the chart of the grid on the web site, it sure looks like there are still six unsponsored car in the field.

[indycool]

Car names don't list associate sponsors very often. And, for those in the field, some deals come together even this week, if past practice continues.

[Colsanders]

Nearly all of the field may have sponsors, but how strong are they? Are some of the lower part of the grid even being paid? Why is TG having to pay some teams to run in most IRL races? If McDonalds wanted Newman Haas to have Bourdais in the 500, they would put up the money and NH could have been there.

So far as the engine leases go; anytime you have one supplier the competition goes down and the cost goes up. Honda cannot hang their hat on beating themselves so they must make the Indy R&D profitable.

We should all admit that as long as one man believes he is larger than the event and sport itself; nothing good will happen. How long TG will keep funding low budget teams out of his own pocket is a good question.

[Jonesi]

Car names don't list associate sponsors very often. And, for those in the field, some deals come together even this week, if past practice continues.

I was talking about the blank sidepods still shown on pictorial grid (they have been updating as some sponsors have signed on). and yes, I know some sponsorship shows up between bump & carb days.

[indycool]

Colsanders, Newman-Haas, if it wanted to and/or if McDonald's wanted it to, could have been there if it so chose to be there. It didn't enter the race.

I have no idea what the books like like for teams at the lower part of the grid and I doubt that you do, either. I DO know that last place in the "500" pays about $200,000 in purse money.

As for you and others saying TG is fronting the field, and why would he rather have Marty Roth or Milka Duno if he's going to do that than give KK free engines for unnamed CC competitors, maybe it's because he ISN'T fronting the field.

It seems to be the fashionable thing from the CW mantra currently to stomp their feet and say, "Well, Bourdais is better than that guy." If Bourdais and Newman-Haas or whoever in CC wants to prove it, enter the race.

[FerrrariF1]

It isn't the sponsors that aren't biting. The CC teams haven't entered the race. All the cars that made the field at Indy have some sponsorship. The TV rating for Indy will likely be higher than that of CC's whole season. Some years, it's been DOUBLE.

Funny I saw plenty of empty sidepods.....I especially like the corporate names of Vision and Penske Racing. What product do they sell?

Well we know what Vision sells and it's a product that the empty stands at Indy and the IRL races that no one is buying and as far as Penske Racing? How many people buy products from Penske Racing?

Nice try but I'm sure that you can get your name on those empty sidepods for a song and a dnace.

I saw at least 10-12 empty sidepods during qualifying.

[FerrrariF1]

Colsanders, Newman-Haas, if it wanted to and/or if McDonald's wanted it to, could have been there if it so chose to be there. It didn't enter the race.

I have no idea what the books like like for teams at the lower part of the grid and I doubt that you do, either. I DO know that last place in the "500" pays about $200,000 in purse money.

As for you and others saying TG is fronting the field, and why would he rather have Marty Roth or Milka Duno if he's going to do that than give KK free engines for unnamed CC competitors, maybe it's because he ISN'T fronting the field.

It seems to be the fashionable thing from the CW mantra currently to stomp their feet and say, "Well, Bourdais is better than that guy." If Bourdais and Newman-Haas or whoever in CC wants to prove it, enter the race.

Everyone knows that George fronts money to plenty of teams. Who do you think put the drunk in one of Foyt's cars. It was George. You also can be assured that the story about PDM morgaging his house to make the Indy field is total BS. No one in their right mind in this day and age would put their house at risk unless they had some gaurentee and that was just a BS story to try and prop up bump day which continues to be a bust.

I would not be surprised that the 500 ends up being either a wash or a financial loss this year. Ticket sales again are way down for the race. The Indy wesite again has more seats available this year than even last year and I have seen more ads in trying to sell tickets even at a huge discount than ever.

Face it George has ruined the once great race and if Mrs Hulman still had her senses and cared about what he husband has built would fire her grandson and put someone in charge that cared about the tradition, the race and bring back the 500 to a world class event once again.

It is nothing more than a two team spec series with a bunch of also rans. It is 100% high downforce racing that anyone can jump in a car with even a decent setup can get into. The 500 has more part time or single event runners this year than ever.

[indycool]

"Everyone knows."

It'd sure be interesting to know who "everyone" includes.

Past that, I wouldn't even know where to start with something as outrageous as some of the points of your post.

[Alexamateo]

...... Who do you think put the drunk in one of Foyt's cars. It was George.


Most of your post is garbage and not even worth responding to, but I wanted to address this. AJ Foyt has been running his own team since at least 1965. In all this time he has run second and sometimes even third cars at Indy. Historically, it was always George Snider. Al Unser Sr. ran for Foyt his rookie year at Indy in 1965. Others have included Joe Leonard, Donnie Allison, Chip Ganassi, Rocky Moran, Jeff and John Andretti, and many more.

Don't you think that AJ has always entered multiple cars in the big money events in order to get the extra payday?

He had Johnny Rutherford in one of his cars when JR was close to retirement and without a ride at Indy. It might also be that he is loyal to his friends and to folks who know what Indy means. Little Al's got a lot of problems, but if he's clean at least for today, and AJ wants to put him in one of his cars and help a man out when he's down, who are we to say anything about it?

AM

[Jonesi]

Everyone knows that George fronts money to plenty of teams. Who do you think put the drunk in one of Foyt's cars. It was George. You also can be assured that the story about PDM morgaging his house to make the Indy field is total BS. No one in their right mind in this day and age would put their house at risk unless they had some gaurentee and that was just a BS story to try and prop up bump day which continues to be a bust.

I would not be surprised that the 500 ends up being either a wash or a financial loss this year. Ticket sales again are way down for the race. The Indy wesite again has more seats available this year than even last year and I have seen more ads in trying to sell tickets even at a huge discount than ever.

Face it George has ruined the once great race and if Mrs Hulman still had her senses and cared about what he husband has built would fire her grandson and put someone in charge that cared about the tradition, the race and bring back the 500 to a world class event once again.

It is nothing more than a two team spec series with a bunch of also rans. It is 100% high downforce racing that anyone can jump in a car with even a decent setup can get into. The 500 has more part time or single event runners this year than ever.

A couple of things:
Grandma, Mary Fendrich Hulman (March 13, 1905 - April 10, 1998) is no longer able to fire anyone.

Somehow the concept of anyone (even Tony George) telling AJ Foyt to do anything, (let alone who to put in the car) just doesn't compute.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Nearly all of the field may have sponsors, but how strong are they? Are some of the lower part of the grid even being paid? Why is TG having to pay some teams to run in most IRL races? If McDonalds wanted Newman Haas to have Bourdais in the 500, they would put up the money and NH could have been there.

I'll pick this part of a post to adress the general talks about CC teams at the 500. Some could very well affoard it - as Walker (?) said in the article, the $300,000 cost seemed very affoardable, but splitting their comittment between two different types of cars isn't exactly the best thing to do if you want to be "on it" in CC I suppose.

[Alexamateo]

Lo and behold, there was an article about this in today's Indianapolis Star

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070522/SPORTS0101/705220386/1053/SPORTS0101


Team Foyt
The drivers who have raced for A.J. Foyt since he created a team in 1965:
NameFoyt team years
Donnie Allison1970-71
Jeff Andretti1992
John Andretti1993-94
Donnie Beechler2001-02
Jon Beekhuis1992
Billy Boat1997-99
Brian Bonner1992
Kenny Brack1998-99
Jeff Bucknum2005-06
Robbie Buhl1999
Pancho Carter1992
Eddie Cheever1994-95
Ross Cheever1992
Airton Dare2002-03
Paul Durant1997
Fredrik Ekblom1995
Gregor Foitek1992
Stan Fox1987-88
Larry Foyt2004-06
Anthony Foyt IV2003-05
Chip Ganassi1985
Felipe Giaffone2005-06
Robby Gordon2001
Marco Greco1996
Mike Groff1996
Davey Hamilton1996-97
Shigeaki Hattori2003
Richie Hearn2002
Bryan Herta1994
Davy Jones1987, 1994
Bernard Jourdain1991
Jaques Lazier2003
Joe Leonard1967
Darren Manning2007
Jim McElreath1970
Rocky Moran1988-89
Greg Ray2001-02
Tim Richmond1981
J. Rutherford1984, 1988
Eliseo Salazar2000-02
Scott Sharp1995-97
George Snider1966-87
Sammy Swindell1986
Didier Theys1990
Brian Till1995
Al Unser1965, 1991
Al Unser Jr.2007
Bill Vukovich II1977
Jeff Ward2000
Carl Williams1968
Source: ajfoytracing.com

[codalunga]

I'll pick this part of a post to adress the general talks about CC teams at the 500. Some could very well affoard it - as Walker (?) said in the article, the $300,000 cost seemed very affoardable, but splitting their comittment between two different types of cars isn't exactly the best thing to do if you want to be "on it" in CC I suppose.

Whether the team can afford it is largely irrelevant. The idea of professional racing is to get someone else to pay for it, and hopefully make a profit. You may see some one-off teams trying to fullfill owner's dreams at Indy with personal funds, but you usually don't see established teams doing it. OTOH, CC had six weeks off. I have to think several CC teams could have handled Indy with relative ease when pitted against all the small teams who made the field.

As for "splitting their comittment between two different types of cars" it doesn't stop AGR and Penske with teams in ALMS, Penske and Haas in NASCAR, or CC teams also in Atlantics. One can wonder if Penske wouldn't be in their normal form if Cindric wasn't dinking around with the LMP2 effort, but there is no doubt they are being well paid to field those cars.

[Jonesi]

As for "splitting their comittment between two different types of cars" it doesn't stop AGR and Penske with teams in ALMS, Penske and Haas in NASCAR, or CC teams also in Atlantics. snip...

One thing, Carl Haas of ChampCar not related to Gene Haas of Nascar.

[Alexamateo]

One thing, Carl Haas of ChampCar not related to Gene Haas of Nascar.

Isn't Carl Haas involved with Kyle Krisiloff in the Busch Series?

[indycool]

Yes....with Mike Lanigan and Mari Hulman George

[MarkC]

Car names don't list associate sponsors very often. And, for those in the field, some deals come together even this week, if past practice continues.The six unsponsored cars are sponsored by TGW (Tony George's Wallet). Some Champ Car teams are supported by KKW.

[indycool]

Well, somebody name the six they're talking about. Certainly if Marty Roth is one, that's an independent effort of TG's wallet and always has been.

[indycool]

I would be naive to think or say to anyone that I haven't heard reliably that this team got a little help here or a little help there, or through the years, at given times, heard of major help in certain situations. But Roth just ain't one of 'em.

[Colsanders]

Colsanders, Newman-Haas, if it wanted to and/or if McDonald's wanted it to, could have been there if it so chose to be there. It didn't enter the race.

I have no idea what the books like like for teams at the lower part of the grid and I doubt that you do, either. I DO know that last place in the "500" pays about $200,000 in purse money.

As for you and others saying TG is fronting the field, and why would he rather have Marty Roth or Milka Duno if he's going to do that than give KK free engines for unnamed CC competitors, maybe it's because he ISN'T fronting the field.

It seems to be the fashionable thing from the CW mantra currently to stomp their feet and say, "Well, Bourdais is better than that guy." If Bourdais and Newman-Haas or whoever in CC wants to prove it, enter the race.

Indycool, I'm not a CW guy. I assume you are talking about Champ Car(?). They are as big a problem as TG when it comes to OWR in America going south. I don't even have a problem with Tony, or whoever, being the the big kahuna for a single Indycar series. But this (lone) series would draw the best teams, drivers, manufacturers, and sponsors; with it the fans and TV ratings. Would a schedule that included Indy, Long Beach, Kansas, Toronto, Surfers, St Pete, Chicago, Watkins Glen, Texas, Kentucky, Motegi, Elkhart Lake, and Sonoma be so bad? Homestead and Richmond and anyother track that cannot fill half the seats hurt the series. The new track in Iowa may sell tickets to the excited locals for a year or two, but you're not going to make sponsors very happy by having them spent a hot summer weekend in rural Iowa.

PS: I DO love the Indy 500 - that's why I am so chagrinned about it!

[indycool]

Well, sure, it'd be a lot better if it was one series. I've agreed with that all the way along.

[CCFanatic]

I'm doing my best to gather information about the cost of racing in various series. Now I wonder, what's the cost of doing only Indy? This is from the following perspectives;

a) buy a ride - how much is said to be needed for a top, mid and backmarker team?

b) buy a car & run it for yourself?

In Vegas I had a conversation just like this with Paul Gentilozzi and he told me to buy a ride in CC or CCAtlantics, to look at 2-3 million for a CC seat and about 750 thousand for a Atlatics seat.

[RGM Fan]

Well, somebody name the six they're talking about. Certainly if Marty Roth is one, that's an independent effort of TG's wallet and always has been.

Jaques Lazier, his sponsor is the Indy Ice, an amature ice hockey team. There is no way that group got together the cash or had enough add revenue to equate to fair trade for the add space.

Phil Giebler's sponsorship is probably underwritten by TG as well because Ethos Fuel Reformulator is a tiny company and his initial press release said "Will qualify on pole day if proper sponsorship can be found." If TG is helping one part of the team he's probably helping both.

Buddy Rice is supposedly sponsored by the A1GP Team America? No, clearly this is a TG deal. A1GP has an even worse American profile than IRL. If anything TG and the team swapped add space and TG is paying D&R to put the sponsor on the car. Likewise Amacco is probably subsidized to some extent by TG since they also sponsored pole day.

Supposedly D&R was set to buy three DP01 chasis and show up at the last CCWS pre-season test but TG came calling with a few million in subsidies and so they hired Sarah Fisher and went back to the IRL.

John Herb, Richie Hern, Roberto Moreno don't have sponsors and Herb and Moreno's team found the equipment and personal to recover from crashes.

Also Marty Roth was a Canadian land developer. I with the Canadian/US exchange rate being what it has been I can't see him as massively rich with $3 million to spend on racing with no hope of being competitive. I have to think he's reciving some support.

There's seven plus the three unsponsored Vision cars and TG is footing at least part of the bill for at least nine teams and probably at least part of 10. I'd also be willing to bet that Jimmy Kite's team and P.J. Jones team had some help as well. At the very least he's running four cars mostly out of pocket and subsidizing two more.

That said we know that Kalkoven is supporting Dale Coyne's second car and potentially part of Conquest as well.

[indycool]

I looked at some of those cars today and some of them have sponsors now. That is something that happens during race week each year. Some get sidepod sponsorship, some get associate(s), etc. I watched decals for a company handed over the garage fence once today while I was hanging outside there.

You might be right about D&R maybe getting some help early on -- heard the same thing -- but I never have heard that D&R was anywhere close to buying DP-01s. IMO, they never got anywhere near that.

Herb got a Dallara from Hemelgarn, crashed it, went out and bought a new one and qualified for the field. Hemelgarn's team put the crashed one back together, put Hearn in it, took 21 laps of practice and Hearn put it in the show. Herb has the money to do it in the first place and Hemelgarn's car was already paid for.

And yes, Roth HAS run his own racing program and funded it, all his life. He retired and STARTED racing after giving it up for a long time building a business and making bucks. And who says he's spending $3 million a year?

I really don't know anything about Playa del Racing's finances other than the team is owned by marketing people or Rice's deal with D&R and A1GP America.

Plus, you don't know what teams are helping other teams. PDM acquired a car from Ganassi for parts to repair its primary car. What'd it cost PDM? No clue. Chastain cannibalized its backup car for parts for repair after its crash. It had two to begin with. Hemelgarn, if I recall a distant conversation in a bar correctly, actually had ANOTHER car back in the shop, but fixed this one instead. Penske is helping the Luzco Dragon effort with Briscoe. Penske has often helped Sam Schmidt Motorsports with cars.

Plus, the Indianapolis Star story said a second weekend effort was packaged at as low as $321,000 for car, engine, tires, fuel and entry fee. There were 10 cars on that program, according to The Star. But Chastain (Gregoire, then Moreno) was practicing the first week and HE was independent long ago when the IRL first started.

So, I doubt the "help" is the gazillions that are being portrayed.

[RGM Fan]

Truthfully the number isn't that high, but when you count the Vision cars, the D&R cars say he's not giving any support to anyone else, which is unlikely, he's probably still spending close to $8 to $10 million to fill out the field. Subsizides are why the purse hasn't grown much since the split.

And that number you keep quoting like its scripture is a lowball figure because it doesn't count accomodations for three weeks, salary, transportation, spare parts, pit equipment and dozen other things that all take money. An all volunteer group with all of the pit equipment they need will still run at tab close to $425,00 when other expenses are factored in, if nothing happens.

You can't make the race at Indy without a half million, and thats just to run at the back of the pack with no backup car. A realistic number is closer to $750,000 for a single car team planing on running all 200 laps at any sense of competitive speeds.

Given the costs I would say its pretty likely that TG subsidizes at least a third of the field to some extent because the problems with handouts is once you give out something to someone everyone wants a piece of it. Hence why a number of these field fillers waited until after the entry deadline to show up.

[indycool]

I wouldn't even speculate how it might work. And I wasn't giving you a lowball number -- I posted what that included. That's a figure we KNOW and know what it includes. Naturally there are other expenses for a team....but if your team is based in Indy, you have no travel, so that would be a diffrerence between teams. And most of them are. Do they have pit equipment? From past years, most of them do? Do they get some local and sometimes national sponsorship as the month evolves? Many of them do.

And I don't know any of what you call field fillers who filed past the deadline. The entries were filed by these entrants on time, but some didn't have drivers and their whole program put together by the entry deadline.

As for your numbers for running Indy, they've been going down the last few years as more costs are cut and more "spec" goes into things. The "lowball number" is significantly lower for that "package" than it would have been a few years ago.

Just looked at the speeds from Carb Day. Jaques Lazier fifth fastest in one of those cars. Top 22 within a second. Sure, the big teams that spend a lot are up at the top, for the most part. They always will be.

[beachbum]

There will always be those who think TG MUST be subsidizing the teams as they are of the opinion that no one in their right mind would spend enough of their own money to support a one shot Indy effort. But that has always been the history of Indy. Some dreamers mortgage the house and show up hoping to make the field - just this once - and then take the starting money and pay back the debt. (PDM). Sometimes they make it and some times....

Of course some of the CC faithful condemn the IRL with the accusations that TG must be helping someone, somewhere, and in the next breath want CC to bring in more teams with some type of financial support. CC doesn't just give out subsidies. The CC owners own their own teams with mainly their own companies on the side pods. Whats the difference? At least most of the IRL teams have real corporate sponsors spending real money.

[RGM Fan]

How come this has to be a CC/IRL thing?

Yes the IRL is subsidizing anywhere between three and 12 cars. Its not a condemation, its a high tide mark on the state of open wheel in America.

Yes CC is subsidizing at least one car and three more are self-sponsored by well off owners.

The moral of the story is two series can't be healthy apart and if the were together there would be 30 cars and most would likely have sponsors. This isn't about series bashing. Just because die hards don't like any negative publicity doesn't preclude us from talking about the realities that are open wheel racing.

Those realities are, and to answer the question. It takes at least a half million to run a one car, $750,000 for a mid-pack effort. To run a top 10 two car effort for the entire month will run you somewhat more than $1 million, want a pole threatening, legitimate contender ride? Probably about $4 million and you have to run a whole season for two or three years before you have a chance of winning.

If you were a ride buyer a third seat at Ganassi or AGR, if they wanted you, would probably run $500,000 or more. John Andretti I hear paid more than $400,000 for his Panther car.

[RGM Fan]

How come this has to be a CC/IRL thing?

Yes the IRL is subsidizing anywhere between six and 11 cars. Or if you’re a real die hard three and only three Vision cars, everyone else is completely self funded.

Yes CC is subsidizing at least one car and three more are self-sponsored by well off owners

The moral of the story is two series can't be healthy apart and if the were together there would be 30 cars and most would likely have sponsors. This isn't about series bashing. Just because die hards don't like any negative publicity doesn't preclude us from talking about the realities that are open wheel racing.

Those realities are, and to answer the question. It takes at least a half million to run a one car, $750,000 for a mid-pack effort. To run a competitive two car effort for the entire month will run you somewhat more than $1 million, want a pole threatening, legitimate contender ride? Probably about $4 million for a whole season. If you were a ride buyer a third seat at Ganassi or AGR, if they wanted you, would probably run $500,000 or more.

[FerrrariF1]

Also don't forget that 20% of all the prize money listed gets funneled back to the IRL which they admitted several years back was used to pay for the end of the year prize fund for teams that race the entire schedule thus George is taking money out of the pockets of the smaller teams to funnel more money into the hand of the larger teams. But of course he is just funneling money to the smaller teams under the table and taking some of his back on the back end. Thus if Herb comes in last and his take is $220,000. He will see only 80% of that money and the other 20% gets put into the hands of the teams that run the entire schedule. Makes it look like George is paying out much more money than he actually is. Either way at the end of the day George is funneling money to all the teams one way or another.

Basically robbing the poor to give more to the rich. At the end of the day George needs a whole bank of accountants to keep track of all this money his is laundering from team to team from series to team from race to team and ultimately back into his own pocket. I doubt the IRS could even follow the movement of money.

[FormerFF]

Back to the question at hand:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070525/SPORTS0101/705250455/1053/SPORTS0101

$6 million for a top line team. I assume that doesn't include a driver's salary

[45 Below]

You might find this interview, done on Carb Day, interesting as well.

http://www.indyracereports.com/2007/Articles/CarbDayHondaInt.htm

[Jonesi]

Back to the question at hand:
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070525/SPORTS0101/705250455/1053/SPORTS0101
$6 million for a top line team. I assume that doesn't include a driver's salary

I think it does. AGR $6 million budget per car, 40% towards salaries, so $2.4mil. 110 employees over 4 teams, or 27.5 per team. How much do they earn? I figure from the secretaries, and apprentice mechanics at the low end, to chief mechanic/crew chief at the top, a little over $100k, an average of $50k seems about right. So that's about $1.4 mil which leaves $1 million for the driver. A top drivers share of race purses & champ fund +$500k, add another couple hundred $k for hats & Tshirts, and they are in the $2-3million range for total income.

[indycool]

Well, Ferrrari, if there's a purse cut for the end of season prize money, it's probably 10 percent and it's probably not just Indy, it's every race. NASCAR does it. CART USED to do it. And CC doesn't pay much of a purse to make it relevant money either way.

The difference is, last place at Indy pays around $200,000. So, if it's 10 percent, that's $180,000 for LAST PLACE in one race, or more than three wins in CC, if CC deducts or doesn't deduct.