Top 10 best WRC drivers

[Danny0405]

Hello,
As we will enter a 2-month break in WRC, I would be interested to see opinions from the forum on the best drivers all-time in WRC (and not a WRC.com polls). No necessity to rank them if you don’t want to but it can be interesting to match the opinions.

My personal top10 (tough decision for 1-2, 3-4, 6-8 and for sure 10th):

1. Loeb, difficult to decide with Ogier but I see him as a more «*pure*» rally driver than Ogier; maybe last Monte Carlo has an influence. But clearly a questionable choice.

2. Ogier, they are almost 1-2 in all records rankings in WRC, he wins with multiple brands (which reduces a little Kankkunen and Sainz performance)

3. Kankkunen, tough call with Sainz as they both have quite a lengthy career (14 years between first and last win) and successes with multiple manufacturers. I would put the Finnish ahead but I don’t know really why; maybe more efficiency in title contention.

4. Sainz for the reason explain ahead. Also a big versatility with the grounds he took his win. Could have been higher but bad luck and bad career choices limits his record (like Alonso in F1 from a certain perspective).

5. Makinen, the definition of a winner in his era; but Loeb and Ogier did even better. And his career at the highest level was a little short compared with Kankkunen and Sainz.

6. McRae, close call again with 7th and 8th. It’s always difficult to separate the hype from the real level (a little like Jonah Lomu in rugby, he was a little overrated at an era where the media star system has skyrocketed). But still, he was a big driver, able of everything.

7. Gronholm, Loeb’s main competitor. His career at high-level was a little short (especially because he obtains a top job quite late) to be higher.

8. Auriol; Quite underrated driver for me, 20 wins against some of the best drivers all-time and quite a long span (13 years between 1st and last win and with 4 brands even if he was often in the best car). Probably that his difficult period after Toyota’s disqualification in 1995 has not helped his legacy.

9. Röhrl, quite a strange character but a great driver, his Monte Carlo performances were among the best. Not versatile enough to be higher in my opinion even if it was clearly less common in his era to have the versatility of the current drivers (and he was not awful for non-fast gravel rallies). A little short in terms of time span at the highest level also.

10. Alen, always difficult to choose a last one (Mikkola was my main competitor). His large time span at a good level (19 years between 1st and last Finland podium) and his versatility compared with others was the main factor to pick him.

Question mark on Richard Burns: wouldn’t have been top 3 I think but without what we know, he could have been on top 10.

[AnttiL]

A while ago I made this data table where I give points for drivers based on their achievements. You get points for rally wins, stage wins, championship titles, wins and titles with different manufacturers, starts, podium percentage etc. Of course it depends a bit on how you weight things, but the top four stays, no matter what you do.

https://i.imgur.com/MHlfAPt.png

[AndyRAC]

There's a trend to put modern sports stars higher than older ones in these type of ratings - it's called recency bias. The modern drivers have far more events to score in, and over much shorter events. It's virtually a different sport.

I think Loeb is probably No1, as his success, longevity and age and still winning is pretty unbeatable. After Loeb it's difficult; I personally would put 3-4, and possibly even more drivers ahead of Ogier.

[AnttiL]

I think Loeb is probably No1, as his success, longevity and age and still winning is pretty unbeatable. After Loeb it's difficult; I personally would put 3-4, and possibly even more drivers ahead of Ogier.

You must really hate Ogier :) Look at the stats above, he's the clear number two on number of titles, number of rally wins, win percentage and podium percentage.

[focus206]

I think an underrated WRC champion is Björn Waldegård (I gave him the honour of copying his name from Google as I don't have all those letters in my keyboard :D )
When he won the championship in 1979 he was already a top driver on the international scene since a decade, being especially successful with Porsche 911, Lancia Stratos and Ford Escort. I remember reading on a motorsport history topic that that he would have been the highest scoring driver (and therefore a very unofficial driver champion) in the WRC manufacturers championships of 1970, 1975 and 1977. I could be wrong though, I remember there were discussions about some results. Very good on snow and gravel of course, but good driver on asphalt too, which was not so common for Scandinavians.
Of course comparison between drivers from the 70s and today's drivers are difficult, quite different sports...

[AnttiL]

Of course comparison between drivers from the 70s and today's drivers are difficult, quite different sports...
Only a few drivers did extensive WRC programs. ERC and national series or marathon specials had also high value, and teams wanted to use specialists.

[AndyRAC]

You must really hate Ogier :) Look at the stats above, he's the clear number two on number of titles, number of rally wins, win percentage and podium percentage.


Stats mean very little - and don't tell the whole story - I just don't think he's No 2 in an all time list of WRC drivers.....

[AnttiL]

Stats mean very little - and don't tell the whole story - I just don't think he's No 2 in an all time list of WRC drivers.....

Well, some people don't think Loeb is No 1 either...

[djip]

There's a trend to put modern sports stars higher than older ones in these type of ratings - it's called recency bias. The modern drivers have far more events to score in, and over much shorter events. It's virtually a different sport.


i agree and ranking hence means nothing (even if what Loeb has achieved is just phenomenal ...). Someone had mentioned Waldegard, a true all-rounder, what about Erik Carlsson, the very first "star" ? Hannu Mikkola who won almost everything (the first to break the Safari foreigners "curse"), save for Monte Carlo ? Rauno Aaltonen who "invented" the modern rally driver ? Jean-Luc Thérier, so gifted that he would show up with no recce, borrow pacenote from a teammate and win a rally ? Bohringer who started very late (aged 34, courtsey of russian post war camps) and still managed a great carreer ? And let's not forget Pat Moss and Michèle Mouton, the only two female drivers that made it to the very top and competed against the boys year-in, year-out ... It's an endless list and instead of going the "top10", youtube-friendly route, we shall just remember all the greats ...

[AnttiL]

If we're talking about the best WRC drivers we must start from 1973. For example Mikkola, Aaltonen and Timo Mäkinen achieved much already before that.

But if we're just talking about the best rally drivers ever, it's more complicated. Does Paris-Dakar count? London-Mexico? National championships?

[djip]

If we're talking about the best WRC drivers we must start from 1973. For example Mikkola, Aaltonen and Timo Mäkinen achieved much already before that.

But if we're just talking about the best rally drivers ever, it's more complicated. Does Paris-Dakar count? London-Mexico? National championships?

It is true that WRC started in 1973. But ERC (and IRCM) which preceded it were as much to pinnacle of rallying as WRC is : It was the premier series, with factory teams and drivers, silverware at the end of the season... and treated by media as such (nothing to compare with the RAC "Manufacturer's trophy which no onee, even in england, was considering). So to my opinion, counting ERC (1953)69) IRCM (1970-72) and WRC (1973-today) on the same footing is fair.

Now you are right. Way back then there were events that were out of these championships, yet very (more ?) popular with works entries by the dozen : Safari Rally, Tour de Corse, Gulf London Rally, Olympic Rally ...

The marathons (London-Sidney, London-Mexico, Paris Dakar, ...) are a different story and -aside from the Peugeeot-Citroen days- boasted different drivers.

[Norm75]

Surprised no one has mentioned Toivonen.
I know he didn’t win a championship or that many rallies, but for me he would have become one of the all time greats if it hadn’t have been for obvious reasons. He just had that quality that I didn’t see until Loeb entered the scene, and was more than capable of beating many already mentioned on this thread.

[AnttiL]

Surprised no one has mentioned Toivonen.
I know he didn’t win a championship or that many rallies, but for me he would have become one of the all time greats if it hadn’t have been for obvious reasons. He just had that quality that I didn’t see until Leob entered the scene, and was more than capable of beating many already mentioned on this thread.

Well, he remains a big what if...he was fast but quite often binned it. He also had a bit of a rock star attitude like McRae or Tänak, that makes him more popular than his achievements.

[AnttiL]

It is true that WRC started in 1973. But ERC (and IRCM) which preceded it were as much to pinnacle of rallying as WRC is : It was the premier series, with factory teams and drivers, silverware at the end of the season... and treated by media as such (nothing to compare with the RAC "Manufacturer's trophy which no onee, even in england, was considering). So to my opinion, counting ERC (1953)69) IRCM (1970-72) and WRC (1973-today) on the same footing is fair.

Now you are right. Way back then there were events that were out of these championships, yet very (more ?) popular with works entries by the dozen : Safari Rally, Tour de Corse, Gulf London Rally, Olympic Rally ...

The marathons (London-Sidney, London-Mexico, Paris Dakar, ...) are a different story and -aside from the Peugeeot-Citroen days- boasted different drivers.

It's just way more complicated to do any statistical roundups if you start combining different series. And I would say we go to a very different sport when we rewind the calendar back from 1973...besides, the topic title says WRC, end of story.

As for marathons, Mikkola, Aaltonen and Mäkinen participated in them and rally raids have been favored by latter drivers as well, such as Hirvonen and Sainz.

[becher]

Well, he remains a big what if...he was fast but quite often binned it. He also had a bit of a rock star attitude like McRae or Tänak, that makes him more popular than his achievements.

Plus the perception suffers from the "Senna syndrom".

[Rallyper]

I think an underrated WRC champion is Björn Waldegård (I gave him the honour of copying his name from Google as I don't have all those letters in my keyboard :D )
When he won the championship in 1979 he was already a top driver on the international scene since a decade, being especially successful with Porsche 911, Lancia Stratos and Ford Escort. I remember reading on a motorsport history topic that that he would have been the highest scoring driver (and therefore a very unofficial driver champion) in the WRC manufacturers championships of 1970, 1975 and 1977. I could be wrong though, I remember there were discussions about some results. Very good on snow and gravel of course, but good driver on asphalt too, which was not so common for Scandinavians.
Of course comparison between drivers from the 70s and today's drivers are difficult, quite different sports...

Agree.

After the two Sebs we could name Björn Waldegård and Marcus Grönholm in third pos.

Björn won first rally he started back in 1965 in own VW 1500S. It was a big national rally (Rally Bore). He won RMC in Porsche 911 in first attempt 1969.

Victories in Safarirally 1977, 1984, 1986 och 1990
Victory in RAC-rally1977
Victories in Monte Carlo-rally 1969 och 1970
Victories in Swedish rally år 1968-70, 1975 och 1978

[AnttiL]

Agree.

After the two Sebs we could name Björn Waldegård and Marcus Grönholm in third pos.

Björn won first rally he started back in 1965 in own VW 1500S. It was a big national rally (Rally Bore). He won RMC in Porsche 911 in first attempt 1969.

Victories in Safarirally 1977, 1984, 1986 och 1990
Victory in RAC-rally1977
Victories in Monte Carlo-rally 1969 och 1970
Victories in Swedish rally år 1968-70, 1975 och 1978

What makes Waldegård better than Sainz or Kankkunen? I don't mean to offend by any means, I'm just interested to find out what makes him better than his stats would suggest.

At least we can say Waldegård is versatile for having won all of Monte, Sweden, Safari, Acropolis, Sanremo and RAC, very different kinds of events. But Sainz and Kankkunen have also won many types of events. Sainz never won in Sweden and Kankkunen never won a tarmac rally (would have won Monte 1987 if it wasn't for team orders)

[djip]

What makes Waldegård better than Sainz or Kankkunen? I don't mean to offend by any means, I'm just interested to find out what makes him better than his stats would suggest.

At least we can say Waldegård is versatile for having won all of Monte, Sweden, Safari, Acropolis, Sanremo and RAC, very different kinds of events. But Sainz and Kankkunen have also won many types of events. Sainz never won in Sweden and Kankkunen never won a tarmac rally (would have won Monte 1987 if it wasn't for team orders)

Way back then (70's) there was this consensus that the best all round driver had to have won Monte Carlo, Safari and RAC don't ask me why). Very few achieved this feat, and Waldgard was the first one.. and did so multiple times.
But it is true that "ranking-" does not make sense. Waldegard, Mikkola, Kankkunen, Sainz are all "all-time greats", so were many others. As someone said : It is impossible to compare the differeent times. We should just not forget the greats of the past.

[AnttiL]

Extending on this topic, here's a table of who performed best on which rally

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQDBAT-XIAMFdd-?format=png&name=medium

I have combined mixed surface rallies into one (Catalunya, Sanremo, Portugal, Cyprus in the applicable years) and similarly full tarmac rallies (Catalunya, Sanremo in the applicable years as well as Tour de Corse, Deutschland etc). Also rough rallies include Acropolis, Turkey, Cyprus and Maroc.

[AE1WRC]

I was scrolling through the threads and since we have a small break to Greece and to keep the forum active let's look at the top 10 drivers of all time now (since this was 2 years ago) ? I like Antti's effort to make his list and Danny but imo Kalle and Tanak put themselves in the top 10 list in these 2 years. You cannot tell me Latvala and Neuville (no disrespect) are better than Ott and Kalle. My list is based on are peak ,titles plus longevity combined (I know Kalle lacks longevity but his peak which is still continuing is better than Thierry and Latvala). Now the question is would you put Kalle and Ott in your top 10 and who would be outside ?

[AE1WRC]

Let me also share my list with you.

1-Ogier
2-Loeb
3-Sainz
4-Kankkunen
5-Makinen
6-Gronholm
7-Rovanpera
8-Tanak
9-Röhrl
10-Mcrae

I am open to any discussions !

[djip]

that's a tough one, as times and even rallies were so different from the 70's to today ... If we limit ourselves to WRC (e.g. post 1973) here is my list.

1-Loeb
2-Waldegard
3-Ogier
4-McRae
5-Sainz
6-Mikkola
7-Röhrl
8-Kankkunen
9-To.Makinen
10-Rovanpera

honorable mention : Tanak, Gronholm, Toivonen, Mouton, Blomqvist, Alen, Therier

[Rallyper]

1-Loeb
2-Ogier
3-ToMakinen
4-Waldegard
5-Kankkunen
6-Mikkola
7-Burns
8-McRae
9-Sainz
10-Grönholm

Not mentioned: Alen, Röhrl, PSolberg, HToivonen, Aaltonen, Blomqvist, Tanak

[AE1WRC]

Thanks a lot for your list guys !! Keep sharing your versions if you want !!. Nice names are in your lists. Let me tell you the reasons that two surprising names (Ott and Kalle) on my list.

1) It is actually recency bias (I am 23) 😀. What I mean is that I have seen more of Ott and Kalle in my life than I did for Waldegard or Hannu for example.

2)One reason that these 2 guys are up in there is their talent. I have seen videos of so many WRC legends who are extremely talented (Vatanen, Mcrae, etc) IMO Kalle is the most talented rally driver I have ever seen at his age and Ott is right up there with his raw talent and speed.

3)Peak: Ott's peak in 2nd half of 2018 and 2019 is something special the guy was literally unbeatable, same with Kalle in 2022 and 2023 (It was like Loeb-Ogier domination even 2023 was like that but with more calm approach).

4)Kalle's back to back means a lot for me. Defending a title is much more difficult than winning for the first time which is something that some legendary drivers couldn't achieve it (e.g Sainz, Gronholm). Additionally he won two with two different approaches first one was domination and second one was incredible consistency with speed being there also (70 plus stage wins in both seasons)

[Rallyper]

Agree.

After the two Sebs we could name Björn Waldegård and Marcus Grönholm in third pos.

Björn won first rally he started back in 1965 in own VW 1500S. It was a big national rally (Rally Bore). He won RMC in Porsche 911 in first attempt 1969.

Victories in Safarirally 1977, 1984, 1986 och 1990
Victory in RAC-rally1977
Victories in Monte Carlo-rally 1969 och 1970
Victories in Swedish rally år 1968-70, 1975 och 1978

How many of you guys have had a small talk with Bjorn? I did. A couple of times. And - fellows of my son, neighbours of Bjorn had him talk some nice words when he married in 2010. It was recorded. Bjorn didn´t attend the wedding, but still.
Why did he do that? Bcs he knew my son Simon and his skills in rallying being third o/a in same rally when Bjorn´s son Mattias did win o/a.
That´s a small story, wasn´t it?

[AE1WRC]

How many of you guys have had a small talk with Bjorn? I did. A couple of times. And - fellows of my son, neighbours of Bjorn had him talk some nice words when he married in 2010. It was recorded. Bjorn didn´t attend the wedding, but still.
Why did he do that? Bcs he knew my son Simon and his skills in rallying being third o/a in same rally when Bjorn´s son Mattias did win o/a.
That´s a small story, wasn´t it?

WOW!! This is incredible!! Thank you for sharing this