eWRC Shutdown

[ouvreur]

https://www.ewrc-results.com/statement/

Such bad news. It already feels like I've had an arm or leg cut off, in the half and hour or so of not being able to use it.

Paywall incoming? They deserve support, that's for sure.

[wyler]

https://www.ewrc-results.com/statement/

Such bad news. It already feels like I've had an arm or leg cut off, in the half and hour or so of not being able to use it.

Paywall incoming? They deserve support, that's for sure.

for me too, this "closed to the public" look like paywall ahead or maybe a switch to professional business.

[Hartusvuori]

Would happily subscribe to it. It's just an important part of following this sport, I'd say the most important, so paying for it would come just natural.

[AnttiL]

I would also subscribe for sure, but I think they are looking for teams, FIA, ASNs etc. to support them more directly. Just having the "heavy users" paying a monthly subscription likely wouldn't be enough, when someone is using the site to make business.

[WRCStan]

Would happily subscribe to it. It's just an important part of following this sport, I'd say the most important, so paying for it would come just natural.

But how much of the data belongs to eWRC? Sounds like a legal minefield.

[wwbroe]

This is very bad news.:(

[Jarek Z]

"Last year alone, we added another 350,000 entries and 7,000 rally events"

This is huge amount of work. Maybe they should scale down a bit and only concentrate on WRC, ERC and national level rallies and skip all amateur events?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Yes, plus the historic work can surely be left and just any 2022 events be added and updated.

[focus206]

What a shame. Hopefully Dirtfish or someone "big" can bring attention to this, they deserve a partnership, as I don't think introducing subscription for relatively few hardcore fans can change a lot. Hell, their database is who knows how many times larger than anything FIA or WRC have available, it deserves endorsement.

[WRCStan]

"Last year alone, we added another 350,000 entries and 7,000 rally events"

This is huge amount of work. Maybe they should scale down a bit and only concentrate on WRC, ERC and national level rallies and skip all amateur events?

Don't think the workload is the point, these are mostly volunteers who only make it happen because they enjoy doing it. It's maybe that, as Antti said, media, commercial teams and organisations use it and these are precisely the type of results they want.

The problem is, the FIA events at least have their own data services which is also probably the source anyway. They probably tolerate eWRC using their data but certainly won't be paying them to host it. If eWRC disappears it'll only drive more traffic to them.

As for Dirtfish bringing attention to it, they are probably one of the big profiteering users of the site!

Like the pros, lots of amateurs see the value in the presentation. How will it affect Pickems operation here, or Fantasy WRC, and fan analysts like myself? If I was to pay for it I would like it to be super-power-queryable and possibly the investment and change there will be too much, I don't know.

Anyway, I would like to ask Andre, or any other eWRC volunteers here for an insiders view on what it means to be involved, and what the ideal outcome is.

[Kenneth]

I don't like to say it, but it probably good step right now. Hopefully big teams, drivers and brands in rallying will try to keep this project alive. And then, if nobody is willing to sponsor, make ewrc-results behind paywall.

[Sulland]

I would be willing to pay more for this site than for WRC all live!

I use it more, they have good data quality, very good user interface and it always works!

WRC promotor need to see the benefit of eWRC results. They have a coplete mess of an internet site, and ERC will move to the same hopeless platform.
Information in database format becomes more and more important, so promotor or FIA has to see that they will get their historical brain readily made for very little money. And for once FIA will give something useful back to the rally fans, that get the sponsors to pay they salaries!

[greencroft]

I would definitely join many of the commenters here and elsewhere to say I would subscibe to this service if it goes that way. I find it by far the most informative of rally data sources available on the web. In true nerdy fashion, I love seeing a photo on FB and then tracking down the crew and car on EWRC or following the history of a particular car from one owner to the next. It will be a massive loss to the sport for me if it does not continue in some shape of form.

[spyros]

I would definitely join many of the commenters here and elsewhere to say I would subscibe to this service if it goes that way. I find it by far the most informative of rally data sources available on the web. In true nerdy fashion, I love seeing a photo on FB and then tracking down the crew and car on EWRC or following the history of a particular car from one owner to the next. It will be a massive loss to the sport for me if it does not continue in some shape of form.

very well said, such a loss for our sport.

[seb_sh]

Too bad, I hope they find a way to bring it back either via some partner or with a subscription model. It must have been stressfull to have uncertainty and have to keep asking for donations. I remember last year when Ogier organised some fund raising amongst the drivers at the last minute.

[Carbon]

It seems more or less like blackmailing. It was their hobbie and they want to blame someoene else that they did that much work? Noone didnt ask to do it. Ive been supporter myself when they were collecting some funding but this feels like shit at the moment, they should feel ashamed to step out like that. Its all about the money now, not hobbie.

[SubaruNorway]

Obviously there's a reason it happened right before Sweden, but if you think of how many hours it takes to do all of this i do understand them. I think 1 or 2 does it full time also?

[pantealex]

Also that Data needs some "server space"

It's not free to keep up that big service.

[dimviii]

It seems more or less like blackmailing. It was their hobbie and they want to blame someoene else that they did that much work? Noone didnt ask to do it. Ive been supporter myself when they were collecting some funding but this feels like shit at the moment, they should feel ashamed to step out like that. Its all about the money now, not hobbie.

i tend to agree with this post.
For sure there is need for sponsorship/money,but my feeling is that the way they did, isnt the right way.
All these adverts at ewrc.cz are not enough?

[AndyRAC]

It's something else to add to the list following the demise of both Rallycourse, and the Martin Holmes Annual.....

[Steve Boyd]

It's something else to add to the list following the demise of both Rallycourse, and the Martin Holmes Annual.....
and http://rallybase.nl/

[Eric_B]

Some of that servers were close because ewrc has stolen their data.

[cali]

Some of that servers were close because ewrc has stolen their data.What? Can you enlighten please?

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[Fast Eddie WRC]

ERC were sensible enough to use https://m.rally-base.com/ for their results.

Pity WRC didn't use Ewrc.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

eWRC-results@eWRCresults·

Be sure that work on our project continues. We hope to be back as soon as possible. Thank your for your massive support !👍 #RallyForever

[Eric_B]

What? Can you enlighten please?

Lot of data in their database were "stolen" from other pages. There were lot of other database projects closed because their hard work and data were simply copied without any notice. Same for Martin Holmes who was not happy they are using his work and research. They have complex database, but source of datas is dubious.

[cali]

Lot of data in their database were "stolen" from other pages. There were lot of other database projects closed because their hard work and data were simply copied without any notice. Same for Martin Holmes who was not happy they are using his work and research. They have complex database, but source of datas is dubious.Thanks!

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[AnttiL]

Some of ewrc's data also comes from juwra.com with the same typos being repeated.

It's a good question, who owns the rights to the results.

EDIT: just to clarify: I don't claim anyone to be a thief, and I have also contributed data by hand to ewrc-results.com

[Andre Oliveira]

Lot of data in their database were "stolen" from other pages. There were lot of other database projects closed because their hard work and data were simply copied without any notice. Same for Martin Holmes who was not happy they are using his work and research. They have complex database, but source of datas is dubious.

Lier!

Mr Holmes helped us and we helped him! He sent the chassis of WRC cars by email to me even before public article of his newspapers and magazines.

I readed some mistakes here but it is fatidious tell all here. But please, don’t lie in name of a great man and mainly dead.

[Andre Oliveira]

Ah and the people that used eWRC to others databases? Or jornalists? Or…

Internet is a open world. We allways (and talked by me) help who asked our help. See McKlein book for example!

[Eric_B]

Lier!

Mr Holmes helped us and we helped him! He sent the chassis of WRC cars by email to me even before public article of his newspapers and magazines.

I readed some mistakes here but it is fatidious tell all here. But please, don’t lie in name of a great man and mainly dead.

I am not lying, I knew Martin for more than 30 years. I know his opinions very well. Same like lot of other people.

[Andre Oliveira]

One thing is saying that his job lost importance cause the internet arrived, and eWRC by sides. Other is say we are the reason! Maybe one day will appear other technology that will make eWRC and others databases obsolete. It is evolution.

The main question is: who owns the data that you say we copy? And the others who copied us? And so on… We bought many official results in ebay and now other guy can copy and share in other pages… who owns that data? No one.

[Eric_B]

One thing is saying that his job lost importance cause the internet arrived, and eWRC by sides. Other is say we are the reason! Maybe one day will appear other technology that will make eWRC and others databases obsolete. It is evolution.

The main question is: who owns the data that you say we copy? And the others who copied us? And so on… We bought many official results in ebay and now other guy can copy and share in other pages… who owns that data? No one.

Be sure there are owners of the data. It is not only about data itself, but also about the way to collect them. All this discussion started with notice, that other rally related sites were closed. I only wrote the reason for their closing - they did not wanted to continue with their work, which is unscrupulously copied by someone else.

[Shacki]

It's unbelievable what nonsense is written here. You can't imagine how difficult decision we made and why we did it. Nonsense about stealing no need to comment, just wasting of time only. But people believe what they want to believe.

[Eric_B]

It's unbelievable what nonsense is written here. You can't imagine how difficult decision we made and why we did it. Nonsense about stealing no need to comment, just wasting of time only. But people believe what they want to believe.

I agree it is nonsense to continue with this discussion. Each of us has it's own truth to believe.

[focus206]

You're not infringing any copyright law by "copying" rally results from other sources. They are not strictly reserved information, and unless the organizers of the rally in question, for whatever reason, wanted complete ownership of the results and hide it from the general public (nonsense), then they are public, just hard to find. Of course, a mention of the source who found them is nice to have.
I've seen my fair share of people in various motorsport forums being "jealous" of their findings, not wanting to disclose results to other users for free, because they were the ones who put in the effort to find them. I find this ridiculous, imagine if historians and archeologists acted like that as well.
I've dug through many websites to make a list of all the national rally champions that I could find, few years ago. Often year by year and country by country, because full lists are usually unavailable. Is that copying data as well?

[Sardalense]

My problem about the "stolen information" is just because sometimes we spend a loooot of time searching for it and then in minutes someone copies it. It's internet, I know, I copy, you copy, everybody copies information. I usually try to add the source of the information to my excel file, but sometimes I forget to do it. But when people says that they are the greatest when I know that some information that took me 5-6 hours (or sometimes years) to get just took them 30 minutes to copy I feel angry, that's why I stop sharing information online. The website is great, is a great source of information, no doubt about that, but sometimes, some contributors need a bath of humility despiste their dedication to the cause because sometimes when things happen it's not because of their effort.

[AnttiL]

I've seen my fair share of people in various motorsport forums being "jealous" of their findings, not wanting to disclose results to other users for free, because they were the ones who put in the effort to find them. I find this ridiculous, imagine if historians and archeologists acted like that as well.
I've dug through many websites to make a list of all the national rally champions that I could find, few years ago. Often year by year and country by country, because full lists are usually unavailable. Is that copying data as well?

I've seen this attitude a lot when searching for rally maps. People hoard their maps and decline to even take photos. Of course not everyone.

Also often especially old school rally people seem to value only the original paper maps/results or scan of them, not a digitalized format (like inserting to ewrc-results or rally-maps). For me it's the other way around, the value of the digital format is that you can make all kinds of stats, lists and comparisons with that. Meanwhile, if I get some paper maps, I don't need to keep them after I've digitalized them.

I've spent hours listening to old rally interviews and transcribing them to ewrc-results to add detailed information about old rallies, but to me the principle is to get that information out there. I've gotten so much from the community, I want to give something back.

[focus206]

My problem about the "stolen information" is just because sometimes we spend a loooot of time searching for it and then in minutes someone copies it. It's internet, I know, I copy, you copy, everybody copies information. I usually try to add the source of the information to my excel file, but sometimes I forget to do it. But when people says that they are the greatest when I know that some information that took me 5-6 hours (or sometimes years) to get just took them 30 minutes to copy I feel angry, that's why I stop sharing information online. The website is great, is a great source of information, no doubt about that, but sometimes, some contributors need a bath of humility despiste their dedication to the cause because sometimes when things happen it's not because of their effort.

We have different points of views. If someone uses and publishes information that I've gathered (and I spent looots of time on it as well) I feel proud about it, not angry. Proud because I uncovered those information from who knows where and now they're under the eyes of everyone. Why would I research if not to make it available to everyone? (I don't have a website to publish, but I'm always happy to share what I have) To keep it for myself? I would have no reason to research then...
Crediting is nice, but even if they don't, I don't care too much. It's not a painting or a sculpture that I made with my hands, it's information I uncovered. I don't feel I have any real ownership on it.

[WRCStan]

You're not infringing any copyright law by "copying" rally results from other sources. They are not strictly reserved information, and unless the organizers of the rally in question, for whatever reason, wanted complete ownership of the results and hide it from the general public (nonsense), then they are public, just hard to find.

I'm not with you here. If the organisers don't want to share them, the public cannot even begin to guess them. We could stand with a stopwatch and walky-talkies nearby and do our own timings which would most likely be different. We can choose whether to share it or not but this doesn't make it useful for anybody because it isn't used in the organisation or outcome of the rally. Therefore hidden official results can't be public information as being widely observed and accepted 'facts', so surely they can be copyright protected?

[focus206]

I'm not with you here. If the organisers don't want to share them, the public cannot even begin to guess them. We could stand with a stopwatch and walky-talkies nearby and do our own timings which would most likely be different. We can choose whether to share it or not but this doesn't make it useful for anybody because it isn't used in the organisation or outcome of the rally. Therefore hidden official results can't be public information as being widely observed and accepted 'facts', so surely they can be copyright protected?

That's what I said, or at least tried to say. If the organizers don't want to share them with the public and keep them for themselves, then I guess it's reserved information. But did it ever happen? Why would any organizer do this? It's just a huge disservice. That's why it's safe to assume, to me, that motorsport results are not reserved information. I can't imagine organizers filing lawsuits going "How dare you, nobody must see these results, they're for our eyes only!"

[WRCStan]

That's what I said, or at least tried to say. If the organizers don't want to share them with the public and keep them for themselves, then I guess it's reserved information. But did it ever happen? Why would any organizer do this? It's just a huge disservice. That's why it's safe to assume, to me, that motorsport results are not reserved information. I can't imagine organizers filing lawsuits going "How dare you, nobody must see these results, they're for our eyes only!"

Gotcha, and I agree for the historic events but the organisers' lawyers won't tolerate a commercial third-party making money off current results, an option discussed here. Besides, the complainant becomes the complainee if it goes down the subscriber road without forwarding royalties.

[Eric_B]

That's what I said, or at least tried to say. If the organizers don't want to share them with the public and keep them for themselves, then I guess it's reserved information. But did it ever happen? Why would any organizer do this? It's just a huge disservice. That's why it's safe to assume, to me, that motorsport results are not reserved information. I can't imagine organizers filing lawsuits going "How dare you, nobody must see these results, they're for our eyes only!"

It is about money, like usually. If you are organiser and you are doing everything to have your rally correct, you are paying for timekeepers and stuff, you want to show the results on your own page. There is no problem with show or not show live results to the public, but where (and who is gaining money from it - for example by google ads).

[Sulland]

I am missing ewrc results badly.

I understand that some claim they have taken data from other sites, massaged them and made them awailable on their site. That happens all the time.
It is common curtecy to mention your important data scourses. If ewrc have taken data from Juwra, Rallye-info and other sites, give them credit on your site, and say thank you for the job they did collecting it.

But these two mentioned sites have/had much info that is not part of ewrc's interrest.

The live results are agreed with all the different rallies, that send them csl files automated.
The database of cars and plates is as far as I know collected by Ewrc themselves, and is for many the best part of the site.

Hopefully they are soon back, with money enough to rent datacentre space and hire the needed amount of people, and not rely on voluntary work apart from Wonka that gets payed.

[seb_sh]

This thread has taken a quite surprising turn... people bashing them for "stealing" info?! It may be that some people made money from selling books/magazines/anuals just with rally results and ewrc made that irrelevant somewhat but it's how it goes sometimes business changes. Printed Autosport is also gone or on the way out (haven't kept track) because websites report the same information faster. Speaking of Autosport if I recall correctly they also had an extensive database of past events that you had to pay a subscription to access, but it seems in the rally world we want everything for free. Just saying.

I'm annoyed that it's gone private but in the end it was free and it's their site so they can do what they want. It also says something that so many people prefer to use it instead of the official one.

[jonkka]

On behalf of juwra.com I express my condolences upon hearing this sad news. In e-wrc, rally enthusiasts had a vast archive of historical data available which, at least for now, is gone.

The scopes of juwra and e-wrc are quite different with some overlap. e-wrc covers way wider ground with non-WRC events, they provided info on all drivers and they also tracked individual car histories, I believe. Also, juwra stores it's data offline (for reasons of data security) and public only sees static web pages, not interactive content. Bearing that in mind, our two sites are not direct competitors and void that e-wrc leaves is huge and irreplaceable.

It's also worth noting that FIA recently started their own statistics site (but it seems to be quite off on some numbers).

Having said all that, data center cost is minimal. I say this only to provide factual basis, not because I am critical on the stated grounds of e-wrc decision. Annnually, I pay around 100 euros for unlimited storage and bandwidth for juwra (and the same space is used for my other projects as well). The main strain is the workload to keep info updated and I can only imagine how much bigger that strain it is for a site like e-wrc with their immense scope.

Final note to people arguing about copying results info and copyright aspect of it. Obviously, I can only speak for my self but I publish juwra online and I do not mind if anyone wants to copy that information. Statistics are valid only until next event so my real work is in the back-office code that analyses and compiles the statistics. Results are just basis for that and not my primary focus. Copyright-wise, public historical events cannot be copyrighted and EU regulations specifically mention that large sports events that are of public interest can be reported freely by news outlets.

I wish all the best for e-wrc and all results info enthusiasts, as well as rally fans in general. This is sad day for us.

[Shacki]

Thank you jonkka, I hope to be back soon. Keep your web alive as well!

[AnttiL]

jonkka, if you would ever set up a crowdfunding, I would be happy to donate. juwra.com has been influencal and invaluable for me, every bit as much as ewrc-results :)

[jonkka]

jonkka, if you would ever set up a crowdfunding, I would be happy to donate. juwra.com has been influencal and invaluable for me, every bit as much as ewrc-results :)

Thank you, it is very heartwarming to hear that. However, I have no trouble covering the small amount that annual hosting costs me and like I mentioned, I use hosted space for other personal projects as well (in fact, to such a degree that I've fallen behind with certain technical updates I've been long meaning to do on juwra).

But that's enough of that, let us keep this thread on-topic and show support to ewrc, shall we?

[AnttiL]

https://twitter.com/eWRCresults/status/1498951374465290240

[Sulland]

Phuuuuu!
Happy to have you back!