WRC main class in 2025

[AnttiL]

The current Rally1 hybrids are going to be used for a three year period, but what's next in 2025? Whatever is the decision, it should be made soon in order to get new manufacturers ready to join in 2025. The FIA president Mohammed Bin Sulyaem said he wants to take a "blank sheet of paper" to make the new rules.

Will the hybrids continue with the manufacturers supplying their own hybrid units? Will the hybrid battery be increased for longer HEV zones?

Or should we go to full electric already? Is the world ready for that in 2025? Would that attract manufacturers, is this what they will be most selling and manufacturing in 2025?

Or is hydrogen going be a thing soon? Who will build the first hydrogen rally car and when?

Or will be go to a cheaper option, maybe Rally2? Rally2 with a light hybrid package? Rally2 with a bigger restrictor? With more freedom like AP4?

Or maybe something like Maxi Rally/N5 or Oreca Rally2 Kit where everyone uses the same engine and transmission with a bodyshell of their choice?

Or are we going back to WRC cars?

Let me know your thoughts. The job of the FIA will not be easy but I hope they are already sharpening their pens for that blank sheet of paper so we won't be as late as with Rally1 hybrids.

[becher]

I hope it stays similar to now, but maybe more freedom in terms of silouette and chassis design. Given the opportunity of the spaceframe chassis they might as well entice manufacturers to design cars with more unique silouettes so the "they are just shopping carts" crowd will finally shut up. BEV would be a dissaster in many ways.

[Kenneth]

They won't make decision soon because that would kill any attempt of getting new manufacturer until then.

Also shouldn't the same concept be here until 2026, with only some tweeks in 25?

[mknight]

Fully electric

Only real issue is the sound, both for safety and for sporting perspective (hearing what the driver does).

So FIA should work with Baumschlager and/or Paddon on creating sound rules.

[lmmjvss]

Some important things to consider? (maybe)

- Formula-E's contract with FIA guarantees electric engine exclusivity until 2038 (or something like that). That way, F1 cant go Electric. I believe Extreme-E's contract with FIA will have a similar "exclusivity clausule" regarding electric engines...We know Extreme-E and WRC are "more different between each other" than "F1 and F-E" are from each other but we know how these things work... meh

- FIA probably have bigger plans and intentions for the new World RallyRaid Championship (Dakar) so I'd presume WRC will also not be able to have this "open class" on the front, where we could see lots of tech innovation, crazy prototypes and "Open Fuel" regulations.

That being said I imagine bio/synth fuels on hybrid engines are whats left for WRC. Not relevant at all IMO, especially since bio/synth fuel on hybrid engines is also 'whats left' for Formula 1... (they are way bigger, so they are the first option if some brand wants to race somewhere just for the Propaganda).

[Danny0405]

They won't make decision soon because that would kill any attempt of getting new manufacturer until then.

Also shouldn't the same concept be here until 2026, with only some tweeks in 25?

Don’t really see how we can seriously imagine a new manufacturer to come in the current context, especially with a regulation that could change in 2026.
Even Matton in the end told «*no new manufacturer before 2024*at the earliest*» and when you know all the shit he said about new manufacturers really interested...

For me, more than the technical part of electric or not (even if it must be taken into account), the main point is to reduce dramatically costs to allow the manufacturer to develop a client-competition model to fund their top-class program and even why not, allowing half-manufacturer entrance (such as M-Sport or Toksport); it would lower the financial risk for the manufacturers and open largely the pool of manufacturers able to come in the game. So I would go to a Rally2 upgraded style of car.
It may imply WRC do not attract the main brand of a group (maybe more Skoda than VW, Mini more than BMW, Kia more than Hyundai, ...) but I think the number of manufacturers is more important than the big names, ...

[WRCStan]

For me it is not worth discussing the cars without also discussing the wider picture: Who are the stakeholders, what are the aims etc. Should it remain to be manufacturer driven class?

Currently we have the FIA pay for and provide hybrid units to promote their care for the environment and this is their chosen pathway. The commercial rights holder WRC Promotor also mandate an exciting car formula to make a more entertaining consumer offer. By being in a commercial rights walled-garden WRC Promotor puts itself in the position where it has to sponsor most of the athletes and teams itself to encourage their co-operation in creating its own consumer product. It probably also has to do it to enable their participation to make up for the sponsors that don't see the value of being in that walled garden.

In the age of perpetually record low interest rates, please just shut down talk of costs being too high for manufacturer brands. Bored of it. They don't think this way, it's either a necessary marketing strategy or it's not.

Rally2/AP4/Maxi is a step back for the environment aims. Rally2 Hybrid won't sell as an exciting entertainment package especially when genuine sporting interest teams don't commit to all rounds. A central supplier of unbadged cars changes the need to be a manufacturer entrant. A central supplier of new fuel power trains for bodyshells is possible but I'm not sure who would take this up even if the tech exists.


For me, allow any entrants to enter cars constructed by any constructor based on cars manufactured by any manufacturer. This wider rule change opens up the sporting element. Open up the classes to allow different fuels and bodyshell shapes and base Rally1-5 on power/weight ratio with basic safety requirements. This opens up the level of commitment needed. Also lets Africa, America and Asia build cars they recognise and use that compete with the European cars in a connected World Championship.

The commercial rights could be owned by manufacturer entrants. Double the value of them being there, give them reason to stick around and encourage the stick arounds to join. They should be collectively in charge of their own promotion. FIA should set up a vehicle for this purpose and once it's sold to the entrants it's done. Avoid selling all commercial rights exclusively to a third party.

So to answer the question directly, new manufacturers aren't coming without either the wider rules, organisation or structure changing. It's not just a formula thing. My impression from the 'blank sheet of paper' suggests MBS does not approve of Rally1 being Category II, though I don't think he'll change anything but just alienate himself by speaking against the status quo.

[AnttiL]

They won't make decision soon because that would kill any attempt of getting new manufacturer until then.

Also shouldn't the same concept be here until 2026, with only some tweeks in 25?

I mean, the three first years are all they have agreed. I remember also this talk that it would be a five year cycle with some changes for 2025, but after Bin Sulyaem's comments about blank paper, I was inspired to make this thread.

Also, I want to make this thread to prevent hindsight in 2025, you will have your older visions recorded :P

[AnttiL]

Fully electric

Only real issue is the sound, both for safety and for sporting perspective (hearing what the driver does).

So FIA should work with Baumschlager and/or Paddon on creating sound rules.

For sure other issues as well but this would be my choice as well. It's what the car manufacturers are now putting on their future strategies and where the sales are increasing the most.

[AnttiL]

That being said I imagine bio/synth fuels on hybrid engines are whats left for WRC. Not relevant at all IMO, especially since bio/synth fuel on hybrid engines is also 'whats left' for Formula 1... (they are way bigger, so they are the first option if some brand wants to race somewhere just for the Propaganda).

But WRC already has now non-fossil synth fuel

[AnttiL]

Don’t really see how we can seriously imagine a new manufacturer to come in the current context, especially with a regulation that could change in 2026.
Even Matton in the end told «*no new manufacturer before 2024*at the earliest*» and when you know all the shit he said about new manufacturers really interested...

If we're going to a completely new class in 2025, then any new manufacturer would join for that year. But if hybrids continue with some changes until 2026, then we could see a new manufacturer join from 2024 onwards for three years. That's why it's important for FIA to decide this soon!

[AnttiL]

For me, more than the technical part of electric or not (even if it must be taken into account), the main point is to reduce dramatically costs to allow the manufacturer to develop a client-competition model to fund their top-class program and even why not, allowing half-manufacturer entrance (such as M-Sport or Toksport); it would lower the financial risk for the manufacturers and open largely the pool of manufacturers able to come in the game. So I would go to a Rally2 upgraded style of car.
It may imply WRC do not attract the main brand of a group (maybe more Skoda than VW, Mini more than BMW, Kia more than Hyundai, ...) but I think the number of manufacturers is more important than the big names, ...
We've already heard from the current manufacturer teams that they wouldn't continue without the current hybrids. Even M-Sport said so!

VAG Group ended all its ICE motorsport action so I wouldn't expect Skoda to join in. Besides, Skoda just ended their WRC2 factory program a few years ago.

Like WRCStan said, the cost of the cars is never an issue when a big manufacturer commits to a full WRC season. It will always be dozens of millions even with tiny Rally5 FWD cars.

[bennizw]

No doubt they should go fully electric if they are wanting to get more manufacturers into the sport. Yes, the sound, but by then I'm sure there will be a good solution for this. Paddons car is a good example of good progression on this matter.

[wyler]

I think the main problem for the manufacturer's low entrants is the lack of structure, especially in the connection with the support category. In this respect, rally3 could be a step forward. FIA should find a way to connect wrc better with lower category. i'm ok in having rally1 as the "spearhead" even if it means to be a bit of alien level for many to reach. what i think should be done is investing on manus championship and resonance to wrc2/3. make a big impact for manus working in lower class (maybe rewarding them with some class points valid also in general classification?). think about skoda in wrc2 or renault interest in wrc3. mixing up the reward between classes could raise interest of manufactures, also from pr perspective. they can probably force a junior team of rally1 manus in wrc2/3 that gives points in the general standings, open to other manus still good for general standings. this will growth also the work on the next gens drivers...
i think the idea should connect the work of manus beyond class division, that is something near the openness needs we discussed many times, without a complete revolution of the whole thing...

[Francis44]

VAG Group ended all its ICE motorsport action so I wouldn't expect Skoda to join in. Besides, Skoda just ended their WRC2 factory program a few years ago.

LOL, they did say that. And now are on the verge of entering F1, an hybrid sport, with both Porsche and Audi.

[WRCStan]

I think the main problem for the manufacturer's low entrants is the lack of structure, especially in the connection with the support category. In this respect, rally3 could be a step forward. FIA should find a way to connect wrc better with lower category. i'm ok in having rally1 as the "spearhead" even if it means to be a bit of alien level for many to reach. what i think should be done is investing on manus championship and resonance to wrc2/3. make a big impact for manus working in lower class (maybe rewarding them with some class points valid also in general classification?). think about skoda in wrc2 or renault interest in wrc3. mixing up the reward between classes could raise interest of manufactures, also from pr perspective. they can probably force a junior team of rally1 manus in wrc2/3 that gives points in the general standings, open to other manus still good for general standings. this will growth also the work on the next gens drivers...
i think the idea should connect the work of manus beyond class division, that is something near the openness needs we discussed many times, without a complete revolution of the whole thing...

Not sure I follow here, do you mean have one manufacturers championship from every level - like teams in ERC? I think this would kill Rally1 and all the investment into promoting WRC. What's the incentive for new Rally1 manufacturers to join and what car will they have to build? They don't care for developing talent or sporting niceties, and a shortage of talent isn't the issue.

[Mirek]

IMHO the new cars will be fully electric - either with range extender generator or with hydrogen fuel cells. It's neither feasible not benefficial to run WRC rallies on batteries alone. One of the reason why the new cars will have to be electric is money. You won't get sponsorship deals on ICE rally cars anymore on the very top level.

[becher]

LOL, they did say that. And now are on the verge of entering F1, an hybrid sport, with both Porsche and Audi.

VW is a reactionary joke, Skoda in rallying, Audi in touring cars, GT, rally raid (with a hybrid the bloody thing is not a BEV) and soon a spec prototype class, Porsche in GT and soon spec prototype, Seat in touring cars, Lamborghini in GT and likely spec prototypes as well and multiple other potential projects. All while their CEO is having flame wars on twitter about BEV vs ICE.

[wyler]

Not sure I follow here, do you mean have one manufacturers championship from every level - like teams in ERC? I think this would kill Rally1 and all the investment into promoting WRC. What's the incentive for new Rally1 manufacturers to join and what car will they have to build? They don't care for developing talent or sporting niceties, and a shortage of talent isn't the issue.

yes, kind of, with some proportion in point maybe. I'm saying to find a way to mix it up, to have low tier manus in the mix somehow. the question you raise is on point, i reflected on it too, but the answer is kind of already in the discussion above. some manus wants top class to show to have good pr (that's why they were against stepping down to rally2+). so -maybe a long shot- but big ones will still stick with a top tier (we were also saying money it's not the real issue, so...). on the other side, being in the mix could raise ambition to go full tilt later on from rally 2 (skoda -vag group) or step up from rally 3 (renault to rally2 -still ex psa, now stellantis group-). Also having top tier they will be hard to beat from others.

Don't know, just a reflection on something that can improve/change. maybe a bad idea entirely...

Edit: integration.
not looking for top tier manus, others like renault and somehow m-sport are indeed looking for growing new talents. also quite all top tier manus are in the process to (or already have) rally2/3.
i'm kinda tring to look bottom up and not top down.

[lmmjvss]

But WRC already has now non-fossil synth fuel

Yep, thats what I meant. This is whats left for wrc.... but F1 is aiming for this too (the non-fossil synth fuel).
Then if a manufacturer is ok with being envolved in motorsport with synth-fuel on hybrid cars, they will proooobably pick F1 to invest, not wrc. Aston Martin and Alfa Romeo are not even real work-teams in F1 but they see the value of exposure. Im happy that Toyota and Hyndai are in WRC not F1, but I imagine they are only here because they know they cant compete with Mercedes, 'RedBull', Ferrari over there...

[lmmjvss]

What about Ideas for Format change for WRC 2026:
10 to 12 stages on Friday and Saturday (like nowadays). After the last stage, points are awarded ONLY for the manufacturer/teams championship. The final result also works as a "qualy' ("starting grid") for sunday.

On Sunday we have only ONE stage broadcasted live to determine the winner. LIke a Time attack thing.
The broadcast introduce you to some of the drivers, then each one have one run to decide the event's winner. (Points awarded only for the driver's championship in this one) Its quick, intense, easy to broadcast live, easy to understand (the fastest win... period).
Haha thoughts?

[WRCStan]

Haha thoughts?

Not knocking your dream but the question was what car to be used to attract new manufacturers.

[lmmjvss]

Not knocking your dream but the question was what car to be used to attract new manufacturers.


haha right, right! WRC should run in 2025/26 what manufacturers are PLANNING TO SELL in 2027-28-29-30... Electric SUVs, hybrid Utes and ICE non-fossil fuel lightweight vehicules (which Im interested to know if SxS are actually cheaper than Rally3, Rally4 too) basically. Thats an easy one tbh. Tho Dakar and Extreme-E are already doing it so... ehhhhhh... it goes back to what I said on my first post about these FIA's exclusivity contracts that could ruin WRC in this decade.
But anyway.... if the product is only followed by the same 200k-ISH rally fans (sh*tty guessing haha) since the 2000's Why would manufacturers get interested at all? Thats why we could chat about "format changes" too.

Other thing that bothers me is that we are not thaaat distant from seeing these same manufacturers AND new ones (tech companies) looking more and more into autonomous-shared transportation. Can WRC participate on this?
Cuz I dont think so =/ ...its looks too complicated for the type of "terrains" wrc runs.
LeMans could use this, something like "Hypercars going 1 hour on fully autonomous mode" and that would be SO COOL looking from this tech angle...

[er88]

Rallying is all about spectacle, and noise is maybe the most important factor for me. Speed sure, but you're going to get a fast car regardless at the top level. For example the screaming s2000s in peak IRC days were much better than the r5s that replaced them imo. Look at the mistake F1 made when losing the proper V8(?) noise.

I'd be happy with full electric but only if they can properly create good noise. Fair play for what Paddon is trying to achieve with that, but the last I saw it still sounded like a malfunctioning washing machine. You'd lose a lot of stageside fans

[Kenneth]

Imo there's no way that WRC will be fully electric, same as F1 won't be fully electric. Hybrid and synthetic fuels are future.

[lmmjvss]

Imo there's no way that WRC will be fully electric, same as F1 won't be fully electric. Hybrid and synthetic fuels are future.

WRC is hybrid and use synth fuel right now... The future is eVTOL racing: Humans vs A.I.... but inside the metaverse. And its all part of a netflix show!

[becher]

Imo there's no way that WRC will be fully electric, same as F1 won't be fully electric. Hybrid and synthetic fuels are future.

BEV are just not suitable for high performance/motorsport application. You will allways have to compansate for dynamic shortcomings by increasing straight line performance . The marketing departments are hot on it at the moment but the Formula E manufacturer exodus and renewed interest in prototypes shows that under the right cicumstance ICE motorsport is long from dead.

[mknight]

1-2 years ago these forums were full of posts on how hybrid will never work in WRC.

Drivers and spectators were to be electrocuted during every crash and everything would catch fire from those batteries.

Look how hybrids work now and how many incidents like this happened even after few quite big crashes.

Electric rally cars work right now ( see Baumschlager) with same itenary as before on same rallies.
That car which is still based on a stock petrol chasiss (so definitely not super-optimized) can run some 500++ hp and still do a rally stage. Wi

Saying that BEVs can't do rallying seems rather short-sighted.

[pantealex]

1-2 years ago these forums were full of posts on how hybrid will never work in WRC.

Drivers and spectators were to be electrocuted during every crash and everything would catch fire from those batteries.

Look how hybrids work now and how many incidents like this happened even after few quite big crashes.

Electric rally cars work right now ( see Baumschlager) with same itenary as before on same rallies.
That car which is still based on a stock petrol chasiss (so definitely not super-optimized) can run some 500++ hp and still do a rally stage. Wi

Saying that BEVs can't do rallying seems rather short-sighted.

True but I still want ICE :)

[Mirek]

1-2 years ago these forums were full of posts on how hybrid will never work in WRC.

Drivers and spectators were to be electrocuted during every crash and everything would catch fire from those batteries.

Look how hybrids work now and how many incidents like this happened even after few quite big crashes.

Electric rally cars work right now ( see Baumschlager) with same itenary as before on same rallies.
That car which is still based on a stock petrol chasiss (so definitely not super-optimized) can run some 500++ hp and still do a rally stage. Wi

Saying that BEVs can't do rallying seems rather short-sighted.

Making conclusions like that after just one cold winter event with no fording is just as silly.

[lmmjvss]

https://youtu.be/0d0MPg7DxbY

This guy is one of the best on YouTube. Its a good and simple explanation on why "e/bio/synth fuel" may not be the "way to go". This is not about motorsport per se but it interesting anyway.

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-already-discussing-rally1-replacement-with-wrc-promoter/

[lmmjvss]

If WRC is going electric, gotta be something like this... +1000hp
Something about this car smells like success...
https://www.facebook.com/2333723280017529/posts/4964749133581584/

[Mirek]

If WRC is going electric, gotta be something like this... +1000hp
Something about this car smells like success...
https://www.facebook.com/2333723280017529/posts/4964749133581584/

Man, get real. With 1000 Hp you need 100 kg of batteries for every 2 minutes of acceleration. WRC is not a drag race.

[lmmjvss]

Man, get real. With 1000 Hp you need 100 kg of batteries for every 2 minutes of acceleration. WRC is not a drag race.

What I meant was like... Electric cars will only be awesome when they are awesome. The Extreme-E SUVs are not awesome. Formula-E cars are cool but not awesome. That was what I meant. Skoda Motorsport wrote on dirtfish's post "Somebody said electric cars"? (Talking about the future of rally1), but it will only work if the car is amazing enough for us not to care that much about losing the engine sound.

[lmmjvss]

This was the car Skoda Motorsport (Kreisel Electric) posted on Dirt Fish's Facebook Article's comment session (Antill posted the link to the article).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxLd8Uv4B8

It is not AWESOME. Its cool that they were able to finish the rally in P3 (https://www.ewrc-results.com/final/69189-rallye-weiz-2021/) but the car itself its not something that we would support in top WRC class. Paddon's car looks more interesting, for example. Or the VW Car who raced in PIkeS Peak. If WRC wants to go electric, they gotta have something that will make us curious to watch, with interesting tech and aerokits.. it gotta be something that will impress the hardcore fans cuz the youngsters will never reaaaally watch rally (I suggest more Rallycross "crossovers" cuz young people do bat an eye in Rallycross). We will lose the sound tho, which is a bummer and WILL affect the event's attendance =/

[mknight]

I have been saying the same for a while.

Electric car has to offer something extra for spectators (being cheap doesn't help spectators directly).
By far easiest is power for fast acceleration.

Looking at current Rally1 it could also be speed limited (power reduced with increases speed).

Which is why the Opel Corsa electric is totally wrong idea.

[lmmjvss]

Skoda's CEO had a run in that electric R5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWk3r-S-rqI

I really respect Skoda for their presence in Rallying. Im even feeling guilty that I have not researched anything about this car "they did" with Kreisel. This video is from december. I totally missed it. Its cool and I hope they can try it out in a WRC Rally2 event sometime. This is the company building all the 2022 rallycross powertrains. You bring your model (skoda, vw polo, hyundai, ds3, fiesta...) and they build the electric kit inside.
But IMO this is not AWESOME like it needs to be to impress hardcore rally fans.

[lmmjvss]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g35562831/ev-plans-automakers-timeline/
Hmmm I doubt China will keep having ICE. While here in South America I honestly dont expect EVs to be on the streets... Not before 2040. We are way to poor and corrupt (petrol: brazil, venezuela, argentina)

[Mirek]

This was the car Skoda Motorsport (Kreisel Electric) posted on Dirt Fish's Facebook Article's comment session (Antill posted the link to the article).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxLd8Uv4B8

It is not AWESOME. Its cool that they were able to finish the rally in P3 (https://www.ewrc-results.com/final/69189-rallye-weiz-2021/) but the car itself its not something that we would support in top WRC class. Paddon's car looks more interesting, for example. Or the VW Car who raced in PIkeS Peak. If WRC wants to go electric, they gotta have something that will make us curious to watch, with interesting tech and aerokits.. it gotta be something that will impress the hardcore fans cuz the youngsters will never reaaaally watch rally (I suggest more Rallycross "crossovers" cuz young people do bat an eye in Rallycross). We will lose the sound tho, which is a bummer and WILL affect the event's attendance =/

There are rules for EV in Austrian championship and the car is built to fulfill them. The car has a rallycross mode with double the power but it can not run rallies like that because you need to drive distance in rallies and that is the essential killer of EV use in rallying (despite the fact that the loops in the Austrian championship are much shorter than in WRC).

Anyway the point is that you can easily build a 1000 Hp ICE rallycar and when I say easily, I mean easily. There is really nothing difficult about it. The reason why it is not done is only the rules and nothing else. There is no technical reason which would prevent that. That does not apply to EVs. ATM it is technically impossible to run even 250 kW EV rallycar on the WRC level.

[mknight]

Anyway the point is that you can easily build a 1000 Hp ICE rallycar and when I say easily, I mean easily. There is really nothing difficult about it. The reason why it is not done is only the rules and nothing else. There is no technical reason which would prevent that. That does not apply to EVs. ATM it is technically impossible to run even 250 kW EV rallycar on the WRC level.

Do tell what makes it technically impossible?

Not having big enough battery to drive a loop or stage+Roald section isn't something making things "technically" impossible.

It is perfectly possible to have charging trucks with powerbanks at the end of each stage. Just like you can have multiple refueling zones outsider of service.

A spectator, both one at the stage and one watching on alllive doesn't really care about what happens after the stopline.

[becher]

Do tell what makes it technically impossible?

Not having big enough battery to drive a loop or stage+Roald section isn't something making things "technically" impossible.

It is perfectly possible to have charging trucks with powerbanks at the end of each stage. Just like you can have multiple refueling zones outsider of service.

A spectator, both one at the stage and one watching on alllive doesn't really care about what happens after the stopline.

But is it feasible? How much compromise is needed just so we can use an unsuitable propulsion concept for motorsport?

[becher]

There are rules for EV in Austrian championship and the car is built to fulfill them. The car has a rallycross mode with double the power but it can not run rallies like that because you need to drive distance in rallies and that is the essential killer of EV use in rallying (despite the fact that the loops in the Austrian championship are much shorter than in WRC).

Anyway the point is that you can easily build a 1000 Hp ICE rallycar and when I say easily, I mean easily. There is really nothing difficult about it. The reason why it is not done is only the rules and nothing else. There is no technical reason which would prevent that. That does not apply to EVs. ATM it is technically impossible to run even 250 kW EV rallycar on the WRC level.

Very well said. Maybe someone remebers it better, but I believe Baumschlager actually withdrew from one rally because the organizers were unwilling to adjust something in the itinerary for his car.

[Mirek]

Do tell what makes it technically impossible?

Not having big enough battery to drive a loop or stage+Roald section isn't something making things "technically" impossible.

It is perfectly possible to have charging trucks with powerbanks at the end of each stage. Just like you can have multiple refueling zones outsider of service.

A spectator, both one at the stage and one watching on alllive doesn't really care about what happens after the stopline.

Let's say you have 20 km long stage and you need to deliver an average power 150 kW @ an average speed of 100 km/h, not that much if you ask me. Just for that you need 30 kWh, let's multiply it by 1,2 for at least some reserve. Afterwards you need to travel some road section. No matter if you charge just after the stage or just before the next one, you need to travel one road section on the same battery as the stage. Let's do 30 km with an average speed of 50 km/h and an average consumption of 20 kW. Alltogether we have 48 kWh. That is 200 kg of batteries only to do one stage and a relatively short road section. The car in the example will be slower than Rally2. Moreover the people watching All live will need to pay attention for much longer period of the time per day because the cars will recharge after every stage which will become for sure very unpopular among the online spectators and also among all other competitors who will only sit and wait after every stage for the electric ones.

I don't even comment the idea to find a suitable recharging area after EVERY stage and get all the stuff including the firebrigade there in time. Good luck with that...

[WRCStan]

It is perfectly possible to have charging trucks with powerbanks at the end of each stage.

I know your question was technical limits but this doesn't sound like a PurposeDriven net gain, unless they are Nikola trucks carrying hydrogen generators.

[lmmjvss]

wrc fans: "we need manufacturers"
manufacturers: "we would like to race electric and hybrids"
wrc fans: "no this is ridiculous!!"
manufacturers: entering dakar, le mans, extreme-e, fia e-gt, formula-e, doing 'gymkhana' videos...."

[mknight]

Let's say you have 20 km long stage and you need to deliver an average power 150 kW @ an average speed of 100 km/h, not that much if you ask me. Just for that you need 30 kWh, let's multiply it by 1,2 for at least some reserve. Afterwards you need to travel some road section. No matter if you charge just after the stage or just before the next one, you need to travel one road section on the same battery as the stage. Let's do 30 km with an average speed of 50 km/h and an average consumption of 20 kW. Alltogether we have 48 kWh. That is 200 kg of batteries only to do one stage and a relatively short road section. The car in the example will be slower than Rally2. Moreover the people watching All live will need to pay attention for much longer period of the time per day because the cars will recharge after every stage which will become for sure very unpopular among the online spectators and also among all other competitors who will only sit and wait after every stage for the electric ones.

I don't even comment the idea to find a suitable recharging area after EVERY stage and get all the stuff including the firebrigade there in time. Good luck with that...

You just described how it's technically perfectly possible even adding a road section. Thanks for immediatelly proving yourself wrong.

"The car will be slower than Rally2"...as you know there is lot more to a car speed than just weight+power. This kind of statement is on the level of people claiming last summer how new Rally1 will be slower than any R5.


Timeschedule is very different on different rallies now already and has varied greatly before as well.

It seems you are thinking a lot about charging from. 0-100%, which is totally unnecessary and waste of time. Do a stage, charge for 10 mins, stop in TC before next stage, charge for 10 mins...and so on.

Having one charging truck and one firetruck standing still at each location is definitely not the most limiting factor. With 2-3 min gaps you might have only 5-6 cars charging at same time and typically you have around 10 cars in top class.

[Franky]

mknight and Mirek talking about EVs in rallying. Time to get a popcorn refill.

I won't get into much details as I'm leaning towrards Mirek's side, but based on your post mknight:

You are talking about charging after and before the stage, so with 4 stages repeated you need 8 sets of charging "stations", plus service charging. How long would it take to complete Rally Finland 2021 with your idea? And how long would be the charging period when you have 5-6 cars charging at the same time? Link to Rally Finland 2021 itinerary - https://www.ewrc-results.com/timetable/68115-secto-rally-finland-2021/

Regarding fire brigades, so it would be 8 extra brigades in addition to the ones that already are at the rally. Do the locations have so many fire brigades to spare for some motorsport event?


WRCstan, did Nikola finally prove that they actually have a working technology? Haven't followed any news about them after they were exposed for blatant lying.

[mknight]

Itenaries are not set in stone, there is no need to run exactly same itenary.

Have a look on 2021 Sardinia friday. 2 stages run twice, right next to each other with minimal road section. At minimum you might need 2-3 charging locations, those then move to afternoon stages. One location might then use one fire truck (truck != brigade). Anyway these are organization and itenary details that are very location specific.

Yes current EVs might need changes to rally itenaries, but not on an extreme level like placing everything on Monza circuit.

But that's not "technically impossible" as claimed here initially.

Less than a year ago we had crowds claiming how hybrids will never work in rally.

[Mirek]

You just described how it's technically perfectly possible even adding a road section. Thanks for immediatelly proving yourself wrong.

"The car will be slower than Rally2"...as you know there is lot more to a car speed than just weight+power. This kind of statement is on the level of people claiming last summer how new Rally1 will be slower than any R5.


Timeschedule is very different on different rallies now already and has varied greatly before as well.

It seems you are thinking a lot about charging from. 0-100%, which is totally unnecessary and waste of time. Do a stage, charge for 10 mins, stop in TC before next stage, charge for 10 mins...and so on.

Having one charging truck and one firetruck standing still at each location is definitely not the most limiting factor. With 2-3 min gaps you might have only 5-6 cars charging at same time and typically you have around 10 cars in top class.

You keep repeating empty theoretical phrases.

Every battery has its limitations for charging and discharging which is linearily dependent on its own capacity. You can not charge a smaller battery with the same maximum current as a twice larger one and say that you will charge it twice faster. It doesn't work like that.

Let's say we need to charge those 48 kWh in 10 minutes because that's the energy we need to get to another charging station in our example. What could be the average C value? With the Tesla S or Taycan it is around 1,5-1,6 average when charging 20-80%. Let's say we can have an average C=2 which is more than in the stock systems. That means that if we want to charge 48kWh at C=2 in 10 minutes we need to have the total battery capacity 144 kWh. Such battery weight is around 600 kg.

Let's see the Kreisel car because that is an example of something which works in the real world not only in phantasies. It has a battery of 52,25 kWh with a said average consumption of 1,2 kWh per 1 stage km. That means the car's average output is 120 kW, not 150 kW as I counted but its battery is a bit larger than I counted, i.e. it can run theoretically somewhat farther (or not if it used in the range 20-80%). The car has 1330 kg. This car is clearly slower than Rally2.

The voltage of the Kreisel is 860V to allow hi-speed charging with maximum charging power 280 kW. Sadly this is the maximum value not an average value and simply dividing 52/280 does not give the time to fully charge. I have found that the maximum and average C values (for 20-80% charging cycle) at Tesla or Taycan are around 1/2-1/3 of the maximum C value (maximum being around C=3). It means that you can not simply devide required energy by the maximum charger power (52kWh/280kW=11,5 minutes) but you need to multiply the vallue by 2-3 to get to the real numbers, i.e. it will be probably around 20-30 minutes.

In a system you suggest where 10 minutes of charging would need to cover 20 km of a stage + 30 km of a road section the cars would need to bring a lot more extra dead weight (unused battery capacity) to allow such fast charging. Simply you can not charge a battery from 0 to 100% at 10 minutes because that requires 6C charging level which would be possible only for the cost of permanent damage to the battery.

That's without the discussion about the cost of having charging trucks on every stage and an infrastructure allowing recharging of those trucks in the service park overnight.

[becher]

wrc fans: "we need manufacturers"
manufacturers: "we would like to race electric and hybrids"
wrc fans: "no this is ridiculous!!"
manufacturers: entering dakar, le mans, extreme-e, fia e-gt, formula-e, doing 'gymkhana' videos...."

Lets see:
Dakar no BEV (not even possible tbh)
WEC/Le Mans no BEV (again not even possible)
Extreme E spec series with manufacturers throwing some money at it but not really manufacturer teams
E-GT still a few years of and yet to see what it will be like (spec like any other electric racing?)
Formula E spec series that is currently loosing manufacturers to you guessed it primarily ICE focused series
I'd rather not comment on drift videos.
Put the words of some "journalists" (=more like influencers) and PR people of manufacturers into contex with what is happening in real life, theres a big discrepancy.

[becher]

"The car will be slower than Rally2"...as you know there is lot more to a car speed than just weight+power. This kind of statement is on the level of people claiming last summer how new Rally1 will be slower than any R5.


There is more yes, but power/weight is the defining factor even in aero based formulas 10kg less mass gives you the equivalent lap time gain as hours of wind tunnel work.

The power density isn't there to have a power/weight ratio that is competitive. Giving BEV a way to compensate for that opens up the disscussion that Mirek touched on, why not give an ICE car the same amount of power? After all any cast iron something with a turbocharger can produce more power than you could put to use.

[cali]

mknight and Mirek talking about EVs in rallying. Time to get a popcorn refill.

I won't get into much details as I'm leaning towrards Mirek's side, but based on your post mknight:

You are talking about charging after and before the stage, so with 4 stages repeated you need 8 sets of charging "stations", plus service charging. How long would it take to complete Rally Finland 2021 with your idea? And how long would be the charging period when you have 5-6 cars charging at the same time? Link to Rally Finland 2021 itinerary - https://www.ewrc-results.com/timetable/68115-secto-rally-finland-2021/

Regarding fire brigades, so it would be 8 extra brigades in addition to the ones that already are at the rally. Do the locations have so many fire brigades to spare for some motorsport event?


WRCstan, did Nikola finally prove that they actually have a working technology? Haven't followed any news about them after they were exposed for blatant lying.Nikola is belly up as far as I know. Bankrupt. Actually there's allegation about fraud

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[cali]

Mknight is presenting a charging competition instead of rallying. No facts, just some random thoughts while Mirek backs his opinions with numbers and calculations... Who do I should believe...

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[lmmjvss]

The Fórmula-E powertrain allow those cars to race 45 min. In Rally, With more braking (regeneration) and slower top speeds (energy consuption) PLUS next season fast charge tech that will be used (tech in development - using motorsport to do so).. Could that kit perform?
I cant math properly like an engineering but my bias is more on the "wrc can be electric with current tech and under some little tweaks on the format" but hardcore fans simply dont want to lose the engine sound.

[lmmjvss]

Lets see:
Dakar no BEV (not even possible tbh)
WEC/Le Mans no BEV (again not even possible)
Extreme E spec series with manufacturers throwing some money at it but not really manufacturer teams
E-GT still a few years of and yet to see what it will be like (spec like any other electric racing?)
Formula E spec series that is currently loosing manufacturers to you guessed it primarily ICE focused series
I'd rather not comment on drift videos.
Put the words of some "journalists" (=more like influencers) and PR people of manufacturers into contex with what is happening in real life, theres a big discrepancy.

Motorsport will always be kinda spec. Im not a big fan of that but it is what it is. And I said Electric "and hybrids". Most of us were complaining last year about the costs of hybrids here, as if toyota hyundai ford were worried about this (rally division uses what? 0.1% of the brand's billionaire budget?). Now things are heading more and more into electric and here we are again complaining while we keep screaming "we need manufacturers" haha
What you mean? That all these brands will not start to produce only hybrids and electric from 2025 and on?

[fiscorpun]

2025 main class will not be decided by discussions in an internet forum. Stop wasting time.

[WRCStan]

2025 main class will not be decided by discussions in an internet forum. Stop wasting time.

Your time? Delete your account then. Nobody is wasting my time I'm enjoying this discussion.

[Mirek]

The Fórmula-E powertrain allow those cars to race 45 min. In Rally, With more braking (regeneration) and slower top speeds (energy consuption) PLUS next season fast charge tech that will be used (tech in development - using motorsport to do so).. Could that kit perform?
I cant math properly like an engineering but my bias is more on the "wrc can be electric with current tech and under some little tweaks on the format" but hardcore fans simply dont want to lose the engine sound.

There is not more regeneration in rallying than on circuit. That is misconception and it's exactly opposite because you can never achieve near ideal circuit conditions in rally.

Let's have a look on the formula E because that also works in the real life. The battery has 54 kWh, nearly the same as the Kreisel RE-X1. Why can it have so relatively small battery? Because there is way higher renegeneration level on the circuit and because the car is basically all made of carbon (the rest of the car weights nearly nothing).

I have counted 200 kg for 48 kWh in my previous estimation (taking into account roughly 250Wh/kg density). So what is the weight of the formula E battery? The battery alone has 250 kg, quite similar to my estimation, BUT there is the cooling which allows all that fast charging, high-level of recuperation and high power delivery (max. power in race mode is 220 kW). Together with the cooling the battery pack weight is 385 kg! That's for just 54 kWh capacity.

So why can the Formula-E run that long time with such battery? The car alone without the battery pack and the driver is only 440 kg heavy! That means that the whole car has a weight just a bit higher than the battery pack alone. Similar weight of the car is of course completely unreal for rallying. Realistically we can not expect the cars to be reasonably lighter than the Kreisel RE-X1 which has a weight of 1330 kg with a battery slightly smaller than the one from Formula-E. Formula-E delivers 220 kW of race power. That's not that bad for a 900 kg heavy thing including the driver but hardly anything breathtaking. The RE-X1 has however 1500 kg (including the crew) which is 600 kg more! 220 kW is roughly equivalent to the Rally2 cars, Rally1 cars are much stronger and both are about 100 kg lighter.

Now the recuperation. We can easily count the average power output of the formula-E car. The race has 45 minutes, the battery has 54 kWh. If they run it dry they take in average 72 kW of power. Surprisingly low value, isn't it? According to Kreisel their car uses in average 120 kW on a stage (value counted from their stated 1,2 Wh/km for an average speed of 100 km/h). Why so much more? Because the car is much heavier and because the recuperation on circuit is much more effective. And even those 120 kW (70% more than formula-E) is not enough to fight the rally2!

So if we put the Formula-E battery into a rallycar we get something very similar to Kreisel RE-X1. Is that surprising? I don't think so. It shows that there are certain common limits for everyone.

[lmmjvss]

There is not more regeneration in rallying than on circuit. That is misconception and it's exactly opposite because you can never achieve near ideal circuit conditions in rally.

Let's have a look on the forumla E because that also works in the real life. The battery has 54 kWh, nearly the same as the Kreisel RE-X1. Why can it have so relatively small battery? Because there is way higher renegeneration level on the curcuit and because the car is basically all made of carbon (the rest of the car weights nearly nothing).

I have counted 200 kg for 48 kWh in my previous estimation (taking into account roughly 250Wh/kg density). So what is the weight of the formula E battery? The battery alone has 250 kg, quite similar to my estimation, BUT there is the cooling which allows all that fast charging, high-level of recuperation and high power delivery (max. power in race mode is 220 kW). Together with the cooling the battery pack weight is 385 kg! That's for just 54 kWh capacity.

So why can the Formula-E run that long time with such battery? The car alone without the battery pack and the driver is only 440 kg heavy! That means that the whole car has a weight just a bit higher than the battery pack alone. Similar weight of the car is of course completely unreal for rallying. Realistically we can not expect the cars to be reasonably lighter than the Kreisel RE-X1 which has a weight of 1330 kg with a battery slightly smaller than the one from Formula-E. Formula-E delivers 220 kW of race power. That's not that bad for a 900 kg heavy thing including the driver but hardly anything breathtaking. The RE-X1 has however 1500 kg (including the crew) which is 600 kg more! 220 kW is roughly equivalent to the Rally2 cars, Rally1 cars are much stronger and both are about 100 kg lighter.

Now the recuperation. We can easily count the average power output of the formula-E car. The race has 45 minutes, the battery has 54 kWh. If they run it dry they take in average 72 kW of power. Surprisingly low value, isn't it? According to Kreisel their car uses in average 120 kW on a stage. Why so much more? Because the car is much heavier and because the recuperation on circuit is much more effective. And even those 120 kW (70% more than formula-E) is not enough to fight the rally2!

So if we put the Formula-E battery into a rallycar we get something very similar to Kreisel RE-X1. Is that surprising? I don't think so. It shows that there are certain common limits for everyone.

Hmmm interesting. So right now the tech "stops" on the RE-X1 car or if manufacturers had more room to play around it could be at Rally1-ISH levels? Considering the weight-performance-safety balance... Like, are the current tube frame cars lighter?

[Mirek]

Hmmm interesting. So right now the tech "stops" on the RE-X1 car or if manufacturers had more room to play around it could be at Rally1-ISH levels? Considering the weight-performance-safety balance... Like, are the current tube frame cars lighter?

Alone they are slightly lighter but not with the 84 kg heavy hybrid system. With it they are actually heavier than the previous generation of WRC cars (30 kg more total weight).

[becher]

Motorsport will always be kinda spec. Im not a big fan of that but it is what it is. And I said Electric "and hybrids". Most of us were complaining last year about the costs of hybrids here, as if toyota hyundai ford were worried about this (rally division uses what? 0.1% of the brand's billionaire budget?). Now things are heading more and more into electric and here we are again complaining while we keep screaming "we need manufacturers" haha
What you mean? That all these brands will not start to produce only hybrids and electric from 2025 and on?

I can't predict whats going to happen in the automotive industry, but we can look at what is going on now and what happened in the past (california in the early 90s for example). The radical move to BEV and hybrids is very much a central european upper class bubble. If manufacturers want to sell products on the global market they will continue to sell pure ICE cars for some time still. After all not even in central europe is it feasible that all those cars in city centers owned by people in small cheap flats parked on the road side are BEV. So lets wait and see and not just jump on PR statements from populistic manufacturers (VW). But i guess this is a bit of topic now.

[WRCStan]

But i guess this is a bit of topic now.

I disagree, it's very on topic. Also when combined with all the talk of recent pages let me ask the question again, is WRC (main class) going to be a manufacturer series in the future?

[lmmjvss]

I can't predict whats going to happen in the automotive industry, but we can look at what is going on now and what happened in the past (california in the early 90s for example). The radical move to BEV and hybrids is very much a central european upper class bubble. If manufacturers want to sell products on the global market they will continue to sell pure ICE cars for some time still. After all not even in central europe is it feasible that all those cars in city centers owned by people in small cheap flats parked on the road side are BEV. So lets wait and see and not just jump on PR statements from populistic manufacturers (VW). But i guess this is a bit of topic now.

But thats the point. PR and marketing. Brands NEEDS to start to be seen as ecofriendly. They want that. Everything is propaganda in the current way of life. WTCR is going hybrid, TCR has a new electric verison (eTCR), Extreme-E is out there, Audi built a hybrid Dakar and everybody heard of it, Ken Block won an Electric Car for gymkhana, WRC went hybrid, BTCC went hybrid, Moto-E is getting Ducatti support, StarkVarg wants to run e-bikes in World Motocross, FIA e-GT is coming, red bull air race is plannig electric Vtols.. even Indycar is going hybrid and manufacturers are nothing but stickers and money laundering over there haha etc etc. If we want WRC to be "relevant", its literally on the propaganda part of the thing.
And heres what manufacturers are saying: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g35562831/ev-plans-automakers-timeline/

[lmmjvss]

I disagree, it's very on topic. Also when combined with all the talk of recent pages let me ask the question again, is WRC (main class) going to be a manufacturer series in the future?

Im starting to think "No". I mean, I dont see wrc as a relevant series right now.
It has a huge spirit because of those Group B footages with millions watching on the side of the road... But righr now you see the "same love" for the sport in both WRC events and when some guys race Fiat Puntos and Volvos somewhere in Northern Slovakia... So maaaaybe it doesnt actually requires manufactures...
WTCC "died". Now its TCR. The WORLD championship runs the same cars as every other TCR national series and fans dont seem to bother haha. Would we bother to lose rally1 cars in order to have "more entries"?

[lmmjvss]

Anyway... Are e/synth/bio fuels really "carbon neutral" as they say? Cuz yeah, you do it via a machine (biological or not) removing co2 from nature and then you use it in transportation and race cars and then they go back to nature and then you remove it again and so on... But doenst the process account for more co2 production too? Arent we reallocating Co2 in the wrong places? I mean, plants "eat" co2 and now wr are extracting co2 from place X and releasing it in city centers wherer theres no trees... Idk, I hope someone here knows better about this cuz im feeling E-fuels are just an expensive hype, just like hydrogen cars. Any infos? Cheers

[WRCStan]

Sustainable resource is the buzzword with synthetic or biofuels. You can plant enough trees to offset a Boeing 747 flight and be carbon neutral.

[Mirek]

Anyway... Are e/synth/bio fuels really "carbon neutral" as they say? Cuz yeah, you do it via a machine (biological or not) removing co2 from nature and then you use it in transportation and race cars and then they go back to nature and then you remove it again and so on... But doenst the process account for more co2 production too? Arent we reallocating Co2 in the wrong places? I mean, plants "eat" co2 and now wr are extracting co2 from place X and releasing it in city centers wherer theres no trees... Idk, I hope someone here knows better about this cuz im feeling E-fuels are just an expensive hype, just like hydrogen cars. Any infos? Cheers

The problem with CO2 is not really in cities or anywhere near the ground but higher in the atmosphere where it creates the greenhouse effect.

The problem in cities is other stuff like SOx, NOx, carbon particles or dust from brake pads, tyres and roads.


I am not a fan of biofuels at all but on the other hand hydrogen cars IMHO aren't just an expensive hype. For me they are more realistic than pure battery EVs (when talking about the scale of replacing the entire CE traffic).

[lmmjvss]

The problem with CO2 is not really in cities or anywhere near the ground but higher in the atmosphere where it creates the greenhouse effect.

The problem in cities is other stuff like SOx, NOx, carbon particles or dust from brake pads, tyres and roads.


I am not a fan of biofuels at all but on the other hand hydrogen cars IMHO aren't just an expensive hype. For me they are more realistic than pure battery EVs (when talking about the scale of replacing the entire CE traffic).

Yeah, this whole theme is weird cuz "the world" shouldnt be thinking about giving everyone an EV. Instead we need more shared transportation than individual cars. More electric buses, for example. Or these "shared autonomous electric" vehicules for 4 to 8 people(?) that some startups are always showing the concept on youtube videos. Racing shouldnt be a problem. In America they are still racing V8s in sprintcar racing cuZ its only about "privateers racing". Theres no manufacturers egos around the sport and this makes me so confused. I really like motorsport and I waste to much time thinking about these weird things haha But I know we cant do much on an internet forum as the other guy said haha

[Mirek]

Yeah, this whole theme is weird cuz "the world" shouldnt be thinking about giving everyone an EV. Instead we need more shared transportation than individual cars. More electric buses, for example. Or these "shared autonomous electric" vehicules for 4 to 8 people(?) that some startups are always showing the concept on youtube videos. Racing shouldnt be a problem. In America they are still racing V8s in sprintcar racing cuZ its only about "privateers racing". Theres no manufacturers egos around the sport and this makes me so confused. I really like motorsport and I waste to much time thinking about these weird things haha But I know we cant do much on an internet forum as the other guy said haha

If there was a real will to lower the emission the first, immediately effective, easy to implement and completely natural thing would be to limit the maximum weight of newly sold vehicles. Do you need a 2,5 tons heavy Mercedes GLS or a Porsche Cayenne to bring children to the nursery school which is 2 km away? Of course not, nobody does but that's how these cars are being mostly used.

[lmmjvss]

If there was a real will to lower the emission the first, immediately effective, easy to implement and completely natural thing would be to limit the maximum weight of newly sold vehicles. Do you need a 2,5 tons heavy Mercedes GLS or a Porsche Cayenne to bring children to the nursery school which is 2 km away? Of course not, nobody does but that's how these cars are being mostly used.

Damn boy, such a good argument. Once I saw someone saying cars are getting huge and heavier because of safety standards and I thought "yep, that makes sense".. so I even start to feel ok with SUVs on the streets but deep in my heart (haha) i HATE suvs. Its always rich moms not looking to the road cuz they are scrooling their facebook's feed. Arhhh and if you want safer cars, just dont make road cars capable of reaching 100kmh inside the cities (here in south america the cities are very dense with mixed parts (houses, schools, buildings, supermarket.. all in the same street.)). Idk, but ah, you just made me return to my hate on SUVs hahaha
Regarding hydrogen and e-fuels, have you watched this video I posted?
https://youtu.be/0d0MPg7DxbY
Hes a car-nerd. I trust his opinions haha thoughts?

[AnttiL]

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/fia-rally-director-predicts-wrc-rally1-regulation-evolution-for-2025/9248615/

Wheatley is implying that hybrids would carry on with changes beyond 2024

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Latvala thinks hydrogen power can be the future...

“Hybrid is for this era but I think we need something new and I think hydrogen could be an option in the rally world because in rallying we can’t go full electric, it is impossible.

And without the sound nobody will go to the forest or to the mountains to watch the cars, we need to have sound in rallying. In circuit racing it is not as important but in rallying we need it.”

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/latvala-hydrogen-power-could-be-a-future-solution-for-rallying/10315080/?nrt=193

[AndyRAC]

As ever, it will depend on what manufacturers think the WRC is a good fit, and offers value; and what tech they want to show off.

[WRCStan]

Related viewing reminder:
Toyota Hydrogen Powered GR Yaris Presentation (https://youtu.be/25iGS7gVX_M?t=540)
Sound of hydrogen car (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dgzKW8EKMc)

[flat_right]

I really like hydrogen. We don't need metals for batteries, we could keep the sound, cars will stay light, range is decent etc.

But scientists need to find solutions for making Hydrogen in an environmentally friendly way and also how to storage it as hydrogen leaks easily.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

JML
Doing something a bit different this weekend as I am in Japan for the Super Taikyu Race at Fuji Speedway!
I will drive the ORC ROOKIE GR Corolla H2 Concept together with 5 other drivers including Akio Toyoda.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUP3coPXEAE8hGP?format=jpg&name=medium

[Kenneth]

Wait so it's car with ICE but powered by hydrogen? I've never heard of something like that before, but it sounds interesting and promising.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Wait so it's car with ICE but powered by hydrogen? I've never heard of something like that before, but it sounds interesting and promising.

Yep. They've been developing this for a while.

https://the-race.com/promoted/how-hydrogen-powered-ice-solutions-create-a-more-efficient-future/

[RS]

VAG Group ended all its ICE motorsport action so I wouldn't expect Skoda to join in. Besides, Skoda just ended their WRC2 factory program a few years ago.

Not really.. they’re about to homolgate a new Rally2 car and even though the works team does not run the WRC2 team, i doubt Toksport are paying Mikkelsen.

[Eli]

Latvala thinks hydrogen power can be the future...

“Hybrid is for this era but I think we need something new and I think hydrogen could be an option in the rally world because in rallying we can’t go full electric, it is impossible.

And without the sound nobody will go to the forest or to the mountains to watch the cars, we need to have sound in rallying. In circuit racing it is not as important but in rallying we need it.”

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/latvala-hydrogen-power-could-be-a-future-solution-for-rallying/10315080/?nrt=193

So basically, almost 3 months later, Dirtfish comes out with (pretty much) the same thing: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/full-electric-not-the-future-of-wrc-latvala/

[lmmjvss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaBUkF2nc00&feature=emb_title

I liked the Hydrogen car.
I understand that to run a Hydrogen car takes something like "one extra step" (as a whole) when compared to an electric car but hey, whatever. I give up on the "lets be logical". If it works and brands support the idea, do it. Just leave some room for privateers to run petrol cars if they are cheaper

[mknight]

If it works and brands support the idea, do it.


That's the problem.

The only big brand pushing hydrogen these days is Toyota, others gave up some time ago.

[sidrun]

That's the problem.

The only big brand pushing hydrogen these days is Toyota, others gave up some time ago.
I belive that hyundai is developing hydrogen technology as well
https://mobile.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo

[Sergiow]

I really like hydrogen. We don't need metals for batteries, we could keep the sound, cars will stay light, range is decent etc.
But scientists need to find solutions for making Hydrogen in an environmentally friendly way and also how to storage it as hydrogen leaks easily.

Scientists in Belgium already found a solution: Belgian Researchers Develop a Solar Panel that Produces Hydrogen.

https://solhyd.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/detijd-transfarm.jpg

In this case, photovoltaic panels produce electricity that splits the water molecule into two parts: hydrogen on one side, oxygen that goes back into the atmosphere. As for hydrogen, it can be stored and reused as electricity via a fuel cell. The panel produces an average of 250 liters of hydrogen per day. https://hydrogen-central.com/belgian-researchers-solar-panel-produces-hydrogen/

The big problem with Hydrogen is the pressure: stations dispense hydrogen as a compressed gas at pressures of 10,000 psi (H70) for light-duty vehicles and 5,000 psi (H35) for all other vehicles. This pressure is maintained once dispensed to the car. This will create huge security concerns. Some time ago a Hydrogen station in the Nordics was blown up. And that high pressure at the stations will make filling up your hydrogen car way less practical and time consuming because after each fill the pressure needs to be built up for the next customer ...

But I agree that Hydrogen is way better than electricty because the precious metals needed for electric cars are even more scare and Geo political related compared with oil. My best guess for 2025 is that F1 aims to unveil the new Formula 1 engine – the second-generation hybrid power unit – which will be carbon neutral and powered by a drop-in advanced sustainable fuel.

[seb_sh]

There are other short term options as well such as the fuel used in WEC. Apparently made by some bacteria from remains of grapes after making wine. https://competition.totalenergies.com/en/auto/endurance/wec/totalenergies-and-wec
Also they will have a hydrogen class at Le Mans but it has been delayed.

I'm also skeptical of batteries due to the raw materials, manufacturing process, lifespan and disposal.

[mknight]

I'm also skeptical of batteries due to the raw materials, manufacturing process, lifespan and disposal.

Nothing of that has any relevance for their use in rallying.

Firesafety (managable cause unlike petrol or hydrogen they don't "explode") and sound (managable but can be "alien") are the only relevant issues.

[seb_sh]

Nothing of that has any relevance for their use in rallying.

Firesafety (managable cause unlike petrol or hydrogen they don't "explode") and sound (managable but can be "alien") are the only relevant issues.

True but they do have relevance for roadcars which is I suppose why the manufacturers insist on having electrificaton in motorsport. If it were up to me I'd make some category with big loud internal combustion engines using those carbon neutral fuels just for the show. The manufacturers can go to formula E if they want electrification.

[mknight]

imo there are two ways for WRC

- "Big, loud and popular". If WRC is popular enough it doesn't matter much to manus what technology it uses relative to their roadcars. (writing this just as I read that Audi announced they go to F1).

Problem is that right now WRC is not popular enough and last time it was this big relative to other motorsports was in Group B times and partly in WRC 2000-2005. Various people have been trying to change this for long time, so by now I doubt it will succeed. 2017 WRC rules have been a "Group B revival" effort and while we had epic competition for 3 years in long term I dunno if I want to call them a success.

If I try not to be too negative maybe using "new media" might help. "Drive to survive" really boosted F1 popularity a lot for example. You might say that the rise of online-videos and onboards contributed a lot to WRC popularity in 2000-2005.

- "Similar to roadcars". This has also worked before. For manus like Subaru and Mitsubishi it really boosted their standings outside Japan in 1990s. In this case "similar to roadcars" these days means going EV.

I think most people would agree that current hybrid rules are an effort to be something in between and are at best a stopgap measure.

[AnttiL]

Was it mentioned that Toyota Yaris Hydrogen prototype in Ypres was allowed to run for not more than 20 km at once. It was brought to the stage starts on a trailer, and driven onto another trailer at the finish. And it was had to be taken to Bruxelles for refueling. I see right now more challenges with this stuff than with electric cars. But having the traditional engine there is obviously good for rallying.

[becher]

Was it mentioned that Toyota Yaris Hydrogen prototype in Ypres was allowed to run for not more than 20 km at once. It was brought to the stage starts on a trailer, and driven onto another trailer at the finish. And it was had to be taken to Bruxelles for refueling. I see right now more challenges with this stuff than with electric cars. But having the traditional engine there is obviously good for rallying.

Well the thing is a prototype, in Paris there are hydrogen taxis from Toyota (fuel cell though). So apart from the missing infrastructure it's not "challenging", manufacturers were running ICE's with hydrogen for years allready.

[lmmjvss]

I think most people would agree that current hybrid rules are an effort to be something in between and are at best a stopgap measure.

Yes but at the same time I used to think the F1 Hybrid engines were just stupid... Until I saw a really cool video on youtube explaining it. Nothing new per se, I just never got interested tbh. Now I think its just an amazing engine!
Tho Im still not there yet with the WRC Hybrids. Just "meh" so far. But who knows...

[MentalParadox]

Even Formula One, an intensely political sport (=pro WEF climate narrative), knows better than to go to 100% electric in 2026. So why should the WRC?

[WRCStan]

That's the problem.

The only big brand pushing hydrogen these days is Toyota, others gave up some time ago.

That's why it's likely to be the future car. The only big brand pushing WRC these days is Toyota, others gave up some time ago.

[mknight]

That's why it's likely to be the future car. The only big brand pushing WRC these days is Toyota, others gave up some time ago.

WEC worked extremely well when Toyota was the only brand there competing with themselves.

[WRCStan]

WEC worked extremely well when Toyota was the only brand there competing with themselves.

I presume you mean for the promoter and Toyota.

[Sergiow]

Yes but at the same time I used to think the F1 Hybrid engines were just stupid... Until I saw a really cool video on youtube explaining it. Nothing new per se, I just never got interested tbh. Now I think its just an amazing engine! Tho Im still not there yet with the WRC Hybrids. Just "meh" so far. But who knows...
Audi announced as engine supplier for F1 from 2026 today. And here comes the twist:

"it will enter Formula 1 from 2026, but in reality it has already entered in the F1 world since it was called on with Porsche to discuss the rules of F1 powertrains that will come into effect in four years' time. What prompted the Germans to get into F1 was not so much the introduction of e-fuel (eliminating the fossil presence in fuels) but the ability to develop advanced electrical solutions.

The endothermic engines will lose over 150 horsepower compared to today's 6 cylinders and will be subjected to the standardization of most of the parts. The combustion engine becomes an element that weighs no more than 50% in generating performance, so that the hybrid system will make the difference."

Source: https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-audi-da-la-scossa-elettrica-con-lorgoglio-tedesco/10358080/

[Sergiow]

That's why it's likely to be the future car. The only big brand pushing WRC these days is Toyota, others gave up some time ago.

That is an interesting quote. That means that Hyundai and Ford cannot be considered "big brands" or "gave up some time ago"?

[lmmjvss]

Even Formula One, an intensely political sport (=pro WEF climate narrative), knows better than to go to 100% electric in 2026. So why should the WRC?

Hmmm well, maybe. But FIA has an exclusivity contract with Formula E for electric open wheel championship until 2039, I think. So maaaybe theres this factor too. And eléctrics are "not there yet" too. Cant race for almost 2h at 300kmh... Yet

[Sergiow]

Red Bull Sports! There seems to be a lot going on lately. Rumour is that 78 year old founder Dietrich Mateschitz is very sick (see https://sportnieuws.nl/formule-1/toekomst-van-red-bull-onzeker-mede-oprichter-dietrich-mateschitz-is-vrij-ziek/). When Mateschitz finally will disappear, all his shares of Red Bull Company will probably be transfered to the Thai mother company. That will create a lot insecurity for the Red Bull Sports branch, especially for WRC where the majority of the Rally 1 drivers are sponsored by Red Bull and M-Sport might be in serious trouble too ...

[lmmjvss]

What r your opinions on "Swappable batteries?"
I mean... Formula E run them for 45 min straight, cant WRC run them for 3 or 4 stages and then swap batteries in a choosen location? Its relatvly "easy" to do. These guys did in less than 2 minutes, check it out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29LGfllk5Qo

[WRCStan]

Red Bull Sports! There seems to be a lot going on lately. Rumour is that 78 year old founder Dietrich Mateschitz is very sick (see https://sportnieuws.nl/formule-1/toekomst-van-red-bull-onzeker-mede-oprichter-dietrich-mateschitz-is-vrij-ziek/). When Mateschitz finally will disappear, all his shares of Red Bull Company will probably be transfered to the Thai mother company. That will create a lot insecurity for the Red Bull Sports branch, especially for WRC where the majority of the Rally 1 drivers are sponsored by Red Bull and M-Sport might be in serious trouble too ...

Thought for the day - when did everybody last physically see somebody drinking a Red Bull?

[wyler]

Thought for the day - when did everybody last physically see somebody drinking a Red Bull?

eurobasket 2022 every bar (also with "organics by redbull" new brand replacing coca cola) - yesterday night - milan
music festival same way with organics - last weekend - italy
world downhill championship - tv (france) - some days ago

[AnttiL]

Thought for the day - when did everybody last physically see somebody drinking a Red Bull?

I regularly have one like once a month but do not look in the mirror…

[lmmjvss]

Hmmm not sure where to post this, but since this is "ABOUT THE FUTURE OF MOTORSPORT............" ?
The new hybrid BMW suv literally used the Extreme-E (with the BMW front nose) SUV for the propaganda...
Not sure what that means... if they are about to join Extreme-E or what, but, if this is it, meeh..
Another Manufacturer choosing OTHER sport to join =/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1tmzvmxJnw

[fiscorpun]

Robert Reid: “One of the problems we have at the moment is the OEMs don’t know what they want."
(Talking about the new rules for '25)
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-75-of-the-way-there-with-next-wrc-regulations/

haha What a joke. At this point they should just say "Look, wrc is kinda pointless for us at this point. We get more exposure doing Dakar, the 24h Le Mans and some cool clips on youtube, so... Bye"

[Eli]

Robert Reid: “One of the problems we have at the moment is the OEMs don’t know what they want."
(Talking about the new rules for '25)
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-75-of-the-way-there-with-next-wrc-regulations/

haha What a joke. At this point they should just say "Look, wrc is kinda pointless for us at this point. We get more exposure doing Dakar, the 24h Le Mans and some cool clips on youtube, so... Bye"

So basically, more news without any news. I think last week in Autosport they said that 70% of the 2025 regulations were ready.

[fiscorpun]

So basically, more news without any news. I think last week in Autosport they said that 70% of the 2025 regulations were ready.

DirtFish got really bad, posting 3 news per week.... and 857 different articles about these 3 weekly news

[AndyRAC]

Robert Reid: “One of the problems we have at the moment is the OEMs don’t know what they want."
(Talking about the new rules for '25)
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-75-of-the-way-there-with-next-wrc-regulations/

haha What a joke. At this point they should just say "Look, wrc is kinda pointless for us at this point. We get more exposure doing Dakar, the 24h Le Mans and some cool clips on youtube, so... Bye"

To be honest, it's a pretty damning indictment on the sport. History tells us whatever they decide is likely to be the wrong decision. However, if they have half a brain, they'll realise they need extra manufacturers. The current number isn't good enough.....

[WRCStan]

DF don't set the regs, at least I'm grateful for the progress report of where the FIA thoughts are at.

[WRCStan]

However, if they have half a brain, they'll realise they need extra manufacturers. The current number isn't good enough.....

Not according to Reid!

Although at least he wasn't comparing makes in Rally2, not helpful because you cannot have makes in Rally1. There is only one comparable manufacturer in WRC2 and it gets in free due to Rally1.

[lmmjvss]

Dont think we need more manufacturers. We need to have teams running year-old cars, like ProDrive running 2 '2022 i20s" and PetterSolberg running a team with 2 "2022 yaris" and Prokop running a team with 2 '2022 Pumas".
And Msport renting more cars like crazy... Tho Im not sure thats happening because FINANCIAL or IRRELEVANCE (lack of interest in nowadays wrc)

[Ricardo Filipe Matos]

Dont think we need more manufacturers. We need to have teams running year-old cars, like ProDrive running 2 '2022 i20s" and PetterSolberg running a team with 2 "2022 yaris" and Prokop running a team with 2 '2022 Pumas".
And Msport renting more cars like crazy... Tho Im not sure thats happening because FINANCIAL or IRRELEVANCE (lack of interest in nowadays wrc)

Well, no... New brands are needed for yesterday, which doesn't mean that private ones aren't necessary either.

[lmmjvss]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin-clarks-2000bhp-electric-thrill-ride/

hahahah Colin Clark and the Ford SUPER VAN! THATS IT! "THE FUTURE IS HERE" hahaha
jokes aside, it looks fun.

[skarderud]

The future of the main class in wrc is rally2.
Sad? Maybe.

But i don't think the economic clima the next years makes todays rally1, or an evolution if it, sustainable.

Rally2 exists, works fine, lots of cars around, and some possibility of some local heros at rallies.
Ofcourse the team with the most money has the best car, but the difference will be less than today.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[AnttiL]

The future of the main class in wrc is rally2.
Sad? Maybe.

But i don't think the economic clima the next years makes todays rally1, or an evolution if it, sustainable.

Rally2 exists, works fine, lots of cars around, and some possibility of some local heros at rallies.
Ofcourse the team with the most money has the best car, but the difference will be less than today.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

So basically a step backwards would be the future? I doubt it from the perspective of the manufacturers.

I still would love to hear how the budget of a top team is divided. You travel to 14 rallies around the world, you employ 100 people throughout the season, including 1-2 top drivers, you own buildings, trucks etc. The cars need fuel, tyres, dampers, driveshafts etc. you need to arrange tests. There's so much cost that has nothing to do with the type of the car. The cost would be the same even if you were running Rally5 cars. How much cheaper would it be with Rally2 cars? If the budget is now 100 million, would it be 80 million? 60 million? Would it make a difference for a manufacturer to enter the series?

The cost difference for a privateer is unquestionable. But it's a different question whether any privateer should be able to start with a top class car or not. Or what kind of problems it causes for following the rally or televising a stage if 50 cars could win the stage.

Then we start talking about Rally2+ and it's a totally another thing, when we start adding power to the Rally2 cars in which drivers frequently get serious injuries (just check what happened in ERC this season). I would also question how the drivetrains, brakes etc. would withstand the added power.

Maybe the sweet spot would be a Rally2 base car with added power, aero, durability element, safety element and some sort of light hybrid element. It would be more expensive than a normal Rally2, but not nearly as expensive as Rally1. But again another question for the manufacturers, would they have a fitting car for this class (in Rally1 you can scale any car for smaller size)

[seb_sh]

The future of the main class in wrc is rally2.
Sad? Maybe.

But i don't think the economic clima the next years makes todays rally1, or an evolution if it, sustainable.

Rally2 exists, works fine, lots of cars around, and some possibility of some local heros at rallies.
Ofcourse the team with the most money has the best car, but the difference will be less than today.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

whatever happens, happens. I don't think Toyota will accept full electric, so the WRC might go hybrid until 2030 or 2029 or whatever. If the organisers screw it up and we go to Rally2 then so be it, on the bright side we will have a much more equal playing field and some proper battles.

[AnttiL]

whatever happens, happens. I don't think Toyota will accept full electric, so the WRC might go hybrid until 2030 or 2029 or whatever. If the organisers screw it up and we go to Rally2 then so be it, on the bright side we will have a much more equal playing field and some proper battles.

We don't have proper battles now? :D

[seb_sh]

We don't have proper battles now? :D

hehe we do, but you know what I mean, even if it goes to Rally2 or Rally2+ or whatever we will still have good rallies, maybe even better with more top level cars :)

[WRCStan]

The future of the main class in wrc is rally2.
Sad? Maybe.

But i don't think the economic clima the next years makes todays rally1, or an evolution if it, sustainable.

Rally2 exists, works fine, lots of cars around, and some possibility of some local heros at rallies.
Ofcourse the team with the most money has the best car, but the difference will be less than today.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as a Norwegian you won't legally be able to buy these ICE cars come Monte of 2025. How is that the economically sustainable decision for the manufacturers to make?

Fabia Mk1, Polo, DS3, C3, 208, Fiesta Mk1, i20 Mk1, Iriz all extinct before the first season of the new regs finish.

Fabia Mk2, Fiesta Mk2 too within 3 year cycle.

How likely they get extended by the FIA wanting to push this image of a flagship motorsport competition?

Although the Fabia is being renewed, Skoda can't even be fckd with entering. Maybe they will do.

Ford cannot renew the Fiesta and need a new car. Maybe moot, as Ford said would pull support without hybrid anyway.

Toyota bringing one at least.

Plus i20 N = 3 cars but not the ones 'everybody' has.

No names of new manufacturers this attracts, zero gain.

[skarderud]

I don't think we have a total ban of new ICE cars in 2025, its to few normal cars available yet, but its coming.

If Hyundai quits, and only left is 1,5 manu, the world championship is dead anyway, and FIA don't have any else to do than set Rally2, evt a Rally2+, as top class.

They also have to quit the manufacturers "right" to homologate the cars, open up for serious private tuners to build cars, with some support from manus.

I hope i have wrong and 2 new manu's join, thats the best for wrc. But i don't hold my breath waiting.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[AnttiL]

If Hyundai quits, and only left is 1,5 manu, the world championship is dead anyway, and FIA don't have any else to do than set Rally2, evt a Rally2+, as top class.

So then we have Toyota and M-Sport with Rally2 cars...(Skoda, VW and Citroen as well but without factory teams).

[rp]

So then we have Toyota and M-Sport with Rally2 cars...(Skoda, VW and Citroen as well but without factory teams).

Skoda and Citroën still has factory teams, but it´s an other question would they want to join the series anymore? Of course the situation would be also totally different if the top category Rally2.

[WRCStan]

They also have to quit the manufacturers "right" to homologate the cars, open up for serious private tuners to build cars, with some support from manus.

This has to come across the board before Rally1. 1x Rally3, 1x R-GT. is embarrassing. Entire system needs putting on its head.

Before someone wants to argue 'that's not rally' or 'it wasn't like that in my day' let me remind them that the winning manufacturer this year hasn't sold a single car or drive, nor even made one available for sale, for we have a constructor championship now and they are building competition race cars. They're not manufacturers!

Without manufacturer money, Rally1 is not sustainable, but Rally1 proves the sport has transformed away from being a manufacturer-centred universe. What an odd situation.

[AnttiL]

Skoda and Citroën still has factory teams, but it´s an other question would they want to join the series anymore? Of course the situation would be also totally different if the top category Rally2.

They do have departments who build and service rally cars, but can we say they have a factory team? Skoda supposedly supports Toksport directly, not sure if Citroen does the same to PH Sport or some other team.

[Gustav Andel]

The WRC should be inspired by the rules for LeMans. The designers have been given a lot of freedom and can choose the type of drive, the driven axles, the aero... They control everything by some coefficient, so the cars should ultimately be similarly powerful. The result will be a varied racing field and each car will have its strengths and weaknesses. And the manufacturers are fighting for applications....

[djip]

They do have departments who build and service rally cars, but can we say they have a factory team? Skoda supposedly supports Toksport directly, not sure if Citroen does the same to PH Sport or some other team.

Citroen (Stellantis) motorsport boss made a clear statement that they (Citren) will continue to support Yohan rossel next year - through PH sport and that they will keep developing the C3 for that purpose. If this is not factory spport, then what is it ? At least it is more than what we used to call "factory cars" way back then when it was developed/ran by importer and/or dealers teams.

[WRCStan]

They do have departments who build and service rally cars, but can we say they have a factory team? Skoda supposedly supports Toksport directly, not sure if Citroen does the same to PH Sport or some other team.


Citroen (Stellantis) motorsport boss made a clear statement that they (Citren) will continue to support Yohan rossel next year - through PH sport and that they will keep developing the C3 for that purpose. If this is not factory spport, then what is it ? At least it is more than what we used to call "factory cars" way back then when it was developed/ran by importer and/or dealers teams.

It's irrelevant as they're not invested as competitors.

Do they want to invest what's necessary to be at the table that decides the Rally1 rules? No.

[wyler]

"The dream would be to see such a car run on the Turini in the hands of Ragnotti's heir to fight in the WRC - then the FIA would have to revise the regulations to allow electric vehicles. So, gentlemen of the FIA, it is up to you to find the solution, we have found it."

Luca De Meo looks to WRC with Renault R5 3E. During the presentation of Renault's new models at the Paris Motor Show, the CEO of the French group, which made Volkswagen unbeatable in rallying, announced that he is thinking about the WRC.

"To conclude, I would like to reveal a little secret and a dream. We are almost there, I don't think we are far away. We are almost there to find the technical solution to make the rally car, we just have to find the space in the budgets, we just have to find the budget, if business goes better than expected, maybe we could afford to develop this project"

ita press (and pic of concept car): https://www.rallyeslalom.com/de-meo-vuole-il-wrc-con-la-r5-3e-da-380-cv-e-sfida-la-fia-video/

[lmmjvss]

Wow that'd be awesome. Its so crazy to see these old rallying cars getting alive again in a cool way. Im starting to get interested in eléctric race cars haha take a look at the Lancia Delta whos going to debut this weekend in Nurburgring, for the world rallycross
https://www.fiaworldrallycross.com/world-rx/news/world-rx/2022/first-look--gck-motorsport---s-lancia-delta-evo-e-rx-/

[Thousandlakes]

I can say that I am total petrolhead first of all. I have been following rallying since little kid in early 80`s. Watched live group B cars in Rally of the Thoudandlkes since 1982. Actually I was there every year 1982-2013. 2013 was little turning point cause I found rallying little boring. That time 2011-16 top level cars was so lame with(1.6litres /33m restrictors). not enough speed, less power and lame sound etc. marshalls put spectators far from road etc. Whole atmosphere and feeling was littlebit gone. Rallying goes wrong way my point of view. When 2017 cars came and I was happy again. Start to follow rallies more again.

Lately I started to think that rallying future could be fully electric. Let me explain: My eureka moment was this summer when I tested really fast EV car. It was mind blowing. Acceleration with instant torque was something amazing. I have been driving fast turbo cars so have something to compare. But anyway I personally started to think that petrol cars future is over sooner or later. Many of us dont want say it loud but main brands is going to make only fully elecric cars in the future like BMW, MB, Volvo, Kia and many others also. I dont take a stand and I dont have idea is this green transistion good at all. I dont have any competence for that. Another turning point was Hayden Paddons Ev Kona project. Watching many videos about it and see that car very developable. I wanted to go outside of box and give a change for electricity even it hurts me as a old rally fan. Really miss that loud group B cars.

Of course there is this sound "problem" What they can do for that sound? I am sure that artificially can create very nice rally car sounds with all the bangs and etc. I think it is not rocket science. I am ready to compromise anyway if we get more manus and more drivers in main class anyway. But sound thing can be solved one way or another. Imagine how nice sounds can create by these small speakers nowadays.

I can easily think that manufactors can be interested to make fully electric rally cars (lets call them eWRC=electronic world rally car). This can start new era of rallying. Rallying come once again as pioneering of this car industry globally. We remenber Audi and its 4x4 early 80`Can say that they were pioneering 4x4 tech and many manus follow after. What is Audi and other 4X4 cars nowadays without this pioneering in 80`Can just quess? Which car brands we can see? Who could be interested. Lets say car manus which already start to make ev cars and want to do and create new markets, new image with this new ev cars. Or manus which are thinking to go deeply in that business in fthe future. And what about chinese brands? Potential is huge. Rally can be again playground for different manus to show of their new ev technology etc. We remember 205 in midlle of 80`s. Can you imagine Peugeot e-208 as EV world rally car with huge spoilers and etc. 205 model sales exploded after it came to rally roads.

What can be specs of the cars?: If I can wish there is +500hp. Hopefully more +600hp. Rule could be that Electric motor have to make manufactor itself. There should be very open rules. Let them be visionnary as much they can be. Create something wild. Battery can come at one manufactor and could be limited like 60-80kwh. This means that electeric motor cant be take too much power. So technology plays very important role that how manus can create best electric motor which using less electic. Battery can be manus own also if it creates more pioneering and new ideas.

Rallies can change little also: They can create new remote stations where car can be charged. Lets say they have to drive two stages until new charging is possible. Nowadays cars can be charged full in less than 30mins and if batteries are 70kwh it can be 20 mins if fast charhing be used like (Kempower) has here in Finland. Can even change tires every two stages in same spot. Who say that fixing the cars could be also possible in this charging areas. How to move and create this charging areas cannot say on my exprience. Manufactors can have moving trucks which has batteries inside? or organiser make them ready to each rally? Routes can be in larger areas and spectators can follow charging and fixing the cars and ofcourse see drivers aswell. Remember old times when car fixed in someones backyard midlle of nowhere. Rally dont need to be so clinical as it is now with these service parks. Ofcourse need that also but remote services can be nice idea again.

As a huge rally fan I really want see this sport glorious as it was before and one way is go fully electric. I can be wrong but something has to be done. we have only 3 manus left and future looks not good if one of manus quit or manus lost interest cause these questionable hybrid rules. I havent heard that new manus are coming? We have only 10-12 drivers and lets say 3-5 top drivers. We desperately need more manus and more drivers. There is many many good drivers who dont have a seat and they certainly belong in top level. Many Finnish ones at least ;)

I have so many other ideas but have to stop now and If you read until here I am very happy. Hopefully I can get some appropriate feedback. I dont want to hear that electric cars is no future. We have to respect the sport and give it change to chance even it hurts.

ps. I am ready to take WRC2 as a mainclass if FIA allow 34-35mm restrictors and a little bit more wings.

[Sulland]

The rallysport is sick.
Having a system where money and not talent deciding who will get the few seats at the top level is not logical and healthy.

We need a top class where we at least have 20 cars in Rally1.
Remove Hybrid, it is a dead end. No production cars have this, so no gain.

As said by others, open up for sale of last years cars to privat teams.

That, or cut Rally1 as it is now, and make Rally1 as a Rally2+.
With a bit more aero and a bit bigger restrictor.

The world is in a recession, costs need to come down a lot!!

[ictus]

Remove Hybrid, it is a dead end. No production cars have this, so no gain.

No hybrid production cars you say... ever heard of... I don't know, a Prius maybe?

[skarderud]

Several hybrids around, but thats as dead as the rally1 hybrid. Shortlived.

Rally2+ is the only path, maybe even to skip the manu involvement as todays level, they don't need to decide whos gonna build a car for rally.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[Sulland]

No hybrid production cars you say... ever heard of... I don't know, a Prius maybe?

Could have been better pinpointed. Many different versions of hybrids on the market.
Are there any prod cars where the hybrid gives a boost as in a Rally1 car?

[WRCStan]

Could have been better pinpointed. Many different versions of hybrids on the market.
Are there any prod cars where the hybrid gives a boost as in a Rally1 car?

With a tubular chassis.

[drive]

Have you seen in 'live' rally1 v rally2 cars on one place or just youtube.. or just local rally where rally2 cars looks great?
I'm big fan, in local rallies R5 makes a very good impression, but on every wrc round (this year I've seen 5) after rally1 cars goes through we just go to other spot to see or hear at least rally1 cars, but not rally2... because r5 looks'sounds boring after wrc cars, even if they driven by gryazin, mikelsen.... its like comparing apples and oranges...

[er88]

R5s have always sounded pretty boring. When s2000 started becoming the new group N in the late noughties, the sport exploded. IRC grew and grew, and I'd say overtook the WRC. The cars obviously had slighty better performance than group N subarus and mitsubishis, but when you stood in a forest there was a world of difference.

The 17 cars and now the rally1s have the pure spectacle, can hear them from miles away and also have the speed. R5s don't have the spectacle to be the top class without big tweaks. S2000s would've done back in the early 2010s, and that was reflected by how strong the IRC was and how many fans watched / attended.

[SubaruNorway]

Could have been better pinpointed. Many different versions of hybrids on the market.
Are there any prod cars where the hybrid gives a boost as in a Rally1 car?

Most of them, even the mild hybrid unless the engine only works as a generator like in the Prodrive developed Ford Custom with a 1L ecoboost.

[Oraamat]

Could have been better pinpointed. Many different versions of hybrids on the market.
Are there any prod cars where the hybrid gives a boost as in a Rally1 car?
Point isnt hybrid boost in roadlegal cars? Hybrid is just one way to somehow use WRC as marketing. Manus were using WRC to sell their brand and their road version cars of those rallycars Imbreza STI, Evo, Focus RS etc. Today there isnt models to sell with the help of WRC and it gets just more and more pointless to throw manus money. Only one Yaris GR, but that came to life more like thanks to WRC. And as many car manus have hybrid in their lineup, its only logical to try to use hybrid in WRC to somehow use WRC in marketing and to maybe atract new manus to it.

[Sulland]

One more GR Toyota is coming in a Corolla.
https://www.toyota.com/grcorolla/

[Andre Oliveira]

R5s have always sounded pretty boring. When s2000 started becoming the new group N in the late noughties, the sport exploded. IRC grew and grew, and I'd say overtook the WRC. The cars obviously had slighty better performance than group N subarus and mitsubishis, but when you stood in a forest there was a world of difference.

The 17 cars and now the rally1s have the pure spectacle, can hear them from miles away and also have the speed. R5s don't have the spectacle to be the top class without big tweaks. S2000s would've done back in the early 2010s, and that was reflected by how strong the IRC was and how many fans watched / attended.

Totally agree. Say that Rally2 can replace is bullshit. And the official team would be allways better than privateers after 2/3 rounds. People dream a lot with something that can’t happen. We need more manufacters in top class, not cut the class.

[skarderud]

Well girls, if you have the direct comparison between Rally1 and Rally2, ofcourse Rally2 is more "boring" to watch.
But when you have 25 Rally2's drived in anger there 15 of those fighting for a top5 spot, and 8 of them can win, thats not boring.

You sound like those dudes that should quit when they banned Gr.B, Gr.A was boring.
It didn't tok long time before Gr.A was a spectacle with a high interrested fans and media. And some occasional local hero stiring things up.
With a Rally2 based championship, eventually with adjustments to a "+" version that everyone can buy, we would have a much better championship from a sporting point of wiew.

We have guys like Serderidis in a Rally1 car, possible to take points, but the last years wrc2 champs is not even close to have a seat without paying enormous amount of money, if they even can get a deal, thats enough argument for me. This Rally1 thing is a joke and a ruining the sport.

Its a recessecion coming, its just a matter of time before Hyundai pull the plug, no new manus are interessted.
Manus get exactly the same exposure with a cheaper car, its no point to do this.
Sadly FIA are equal stupid to FIFA.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[manthey]

As R5+ category I remember RRC cars as "small wrc".
For sure more battle would be interesting (take a look at wrc sanremo 2001 entry list

https://www.ewrc-results.com/entries/104-rallye-sanremo-rallye-ditalia-2001/


and Rally2 are not so slow relative to Rally1

[atsiotras79]

Well girls, if you have the direct comparison between Rally1 and Rally2, ofcourse Rally2 is more "boring" to watch.
But when you have 25 Rally2's drived in anger there 15 of those fighting for a top5 spot, and 8 of them can win, thats not boring.

You sound like those dudes that should quit when they banned Gr.B, Gr.A was boring.
It didn't tok long time before Gr.A was a spectacle with a high interrested fans and media. And some occasional local hero stiring things up.
With a Rally2 based championship, eventually with adjustments to a "+" version that everyone can buy, we would have a much better championship from a sporting point of wiew.

We have guys like Serderidis in a Rally1 car, possible to take points, but the last years wrc2 champs is not even close to have a seat without paying enormous amount of money, if they even can get a deal, thats enough argument for me. This Rally1 thing is a joke and a ruining the sport.

Its a recessecion coming, its just a matter of time before Hyundai pull the plug, no new manus are interessted.
Manus get exactly the same exposure with a cheaper car, its no point to do this.
Sadly FIA are equal stupid to FIFA.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

Put a restriction to organisers about not using tight and slow uphill parts and then even with Rally5 cars the top drivers will make the spectacle to be ok 😂

[AnttiL]

Remove Hybrid, it is a dead end. No production cars have this, so no gain.

Most production cars don't have 4WD, 300 BHP or rear wings either.

[AnttiL]

R5s have always sounded pretty boring. When s2000 started becoming the new group N in the late noughties, the sport exploded. IRC grew and grew, and I'd say overtook the WRC. The cars obviously had slighty better performance than group N subarus and mitsubishis, but when you stood in a forest there was a world of difference.

The 17 cars and now the rally1s have the pure spectacle, can hear them from miles away and also have the speed. R5s don't have the spectacle to be the top class without big tweaks. S2000s would've done back in the early 2010s, and that was reflected by how strong the IRC was and how many fans watched / attended.

I assume sound made the S2000 car appear faster than it actually is. I never witnessed the S2000 era live and I don't find these cars that exciting.

Meanwhile, Rally2 cars are a lot faster than S2000 and basically we could say that they are faster than Group B monsters on rally stages, but they sound quite tame.

[AnttiL]

Well girls, if you have the direct comparison between Rally1 and Rally2, ofcourse Rally2 is more "boring" to watch.
But when you have 25 Rally2's drived in anger there 15 of those fighting for a top5 spot, and 8 of them can win, thats not boring.

I don't see this problem. Even with Rally1 we see the same Rally2 cars driven in anger. It's good to have different classes of cars for each having their own class winner instead of half of the cars being one class. And there will always be gentlemen drivers and privateers who must be careful not to crash.



You sound like those dudes that should quit when they banned Gr.B, Gr.A was boring.
It didn't tok long time before Gr.A was a spectacle with a high interrested fans and media. And some occasional local hero stiring things up.

The rules were a bit more free and teams/manufacturers had more budget to develop the cars.



With a Rally2 based championship, eventually with adjustments to a "+" version that everyone can buy, we would have a much better championship from a sporting point of wiew.

Rally2 car is not something "everyone" can buy. And especially with adjustments and factory team development it would become more expensive.


We have guys like Serderidis in a Rally1 car, possible to take points, but the last years wrc2 champs is not even close to have a seat without paying enormous amount of money, if they even can get a deal, thats enough argument for me. This Rally1 thing is a joke and a ruining the sport.

Motorsport has always been a sport that's not based on results but budget as well. We've seen numerous talents get sidelined throughout the years, it's not the first time it happens.

[AnttiL]

As R5+ category I remember RRC cars as "small wrc".


RRC was a WRC car that you made deliberately slower. It didn't make it less expensive.


For sure more battle would be interesting (take a look at wrc sanremo 2001 entry list

https://www.ewrc-results.com/entries/104-rallye-sanremo-rallye-ditalia-2001/

Those cars were still very expensive, and times were different globally. It's not just about the class of cars.

We can also look at this entry list of RAC 1986 and say Group B is the answer to our problems because there were 43 top class cars (well some of them just put in that class for missing group A homologation, but still a lot of real Group B cars)

https://www.ewrc-results.com/entries/8674-lombard-rac-rally-1986/

[AnttiL]

Point isnt hybrid boost in roadlegal cars? Hybrid is just one way to somehow use WRC as marketing. Manus were using WRC to sell their brand and their road version cars of those rallycars Imbreza STI, Evo, Focus RS etc. Today there isnt models to sell with the help of WRC and it gets just more and more pointless to throw manus money. Only one Yaris GR, but that came to life more like thanks to WRC. And as many car manus have hybrid in their lineup, its only logical to try to use hybrid in WRC to somehow use WRC in marketing and to maybe atract new manus to it.

Rallying has never been about selling the "homologation specials" like Impreza STI or Focus RS. The point has been to make the brand appear positive in the eyes of consumers who buy normal family cars. The classic example is Peugeot who were on verge of bankrupty but the 205 T16 project made them rise and 205 was voted the car of the year. The company wasn't saved by selling those 200 road going T16 models.

[AnttiL]

Totally agree. Say that Rally2 can replace is bullshit. And the official team would be allways better than privateers after 2/3 rounds. People dream a lot with something that can’t happen. We need more manufacters in top class, not cut the class.

Well said. And the sad fact is that going to Rally2 would not give us more manufacturer teams at the moment. It would be again just Hyundai, M-Sport and soon Toyota. There are still cars for Skoda, VW, Citroen, Peugeot (and, god forbid, Proton) but without intention to invest in the series through the manufacturer's budget.

[wyler]

funny fact is:

what is described as r5+/rally2+, is basically a wrc/rally1.

[AnttiL]

funny fact is:

what is described as r5+/rally2+, is basically a wrc/rally1.

You couldn't be more wrong. Especially when we are talking about Rally1 cars which are tubular space frame prototypes while Rally2 (and WRC) are built from a production chassis. The engines are quite different, and so are the transmissions and suspensions. Rally1 and 2017 WRC has much improved safety and the transmission is designed to withstand higher power from the engine.

Performance wise a Rally2 car is probably nowadays close to a 2011 WRC car. But it's still more costly to run a 2011 WRC car in a rally.

[wyler]

You couldn't be more wrong. Especially when we are talking about Rally1 cars which are tubular space frame prototypes while Rally2 (and WRC) are built from a production chassis. The engines are quite different, and so are the transmissions and suspensions. Rally1 and 2017 WRC has much improved safety and the transmission is designed to withstand higher power from the engine.

Performance wise a Rally2 car is probably nowadays close to a 2011 WRC car. But it's still more costly to run a 2011 WRC car in a rally.

come on mate, don't be so literal.
I didn't mean car are equal. I mean that building a r5+ is not simply add some power, but it's more like designing a new tier car, that will be closer to the top category, with similar expenses to the top category.

you said it yourself: "the transmission is designed to withstand higher power from the engine". if you make a much more powerfull engine to an r5, then you have to adapt all the car accordingly, and that r5+ will be very different from an r5 (and similar to a "top tier" car - if you dislike "wrc-rally1")

[AnttiL]

come on mate, don't be so literal.
I didn't mean car are equal. I mean that building a r5+ is not simply add some power, but it's more like designing a new tier car, that will be closer to the top category, with similar expenses to the top category.

you said it yourself: "the transmission is designed to withstand higher power from the engine". if you make a much more powerfull engine to an r5, then you have to adapt all the car accordingly, and that r5+ will be very different from an r5 (and similar to a "top tier" car - if you dislike "wrc-rally1")

Correct. But there may be a middle ground where Rally2 gets more power and reinforced parts (like maybe driveshafts, brakes and shocks or something) but the cost is still lower than a WRC/Rally1.

[skarderud]

An R5+ has 2 be slightly more power and aero, not new diff, shocks etc.

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[wyler]

Correct. But there may be a middle ground where Rally2 gets more power and reinforced parts (like maybe driveshafts, brakes and shocks or something) but the cost is still lower than a WRC/Rally1.

agreed, but if you reinforce an r5 to become similar to an old spec wrc -as u said before- in a way is still a wrc! : )

anyway i'm convinced too there can be ways to spend less on a top tier car, just don't believe upgrading an r5 will work. it will take to design a new spec.

[RS]

Well said. And the sad fact is that going to Rally2 would not give us more manufacturer teams at the moment. It would be again just Hyundai, M-Sport and soon Toyota. There are still cars for Skoda, VW, Citroen, Peugeot (and, god forbid, Proton) but without intention to invest in the series through the manufacturer's budget.

I would be surprised if at least Citroen and Skoda didn’t step up in that case, even if they had to pretend it wasn’t a works programme by doing it through private teams.

In terms of what they were meant to do (attract more manufacturers) the Rally1 cars have been a failure. Although I probably would be impressed with them in real life, I don’t really like the concept of them. Not based on a road car chassis, not based on a road car engine. The ‘Ford Puma’ is not really a Ford Puma at all.

The aero is too much. It looks silly and they spend a lot of money and time changing it all the time. Some guys here said the switch to a spaceframe chassis would save them money, yet these cars are more expensive than ever.

I’m not even convinced they require that much finesse to drive (big balls yes) Sometimes it looks like the drivers just fling the car at the corner and let the immense power and aero do the work.

The gap between Rally2 and Rally1 is too big, such that teams don’t want to take a risk on promoting anyone from the lower category and they just end up recycling old drivers..

Realise I’m probably gonna get flamed for saying the above, but it’s just my opinions/personal taste. I preferred the pre 2017 World Rally Cars, even if the speed was less.

[mknight]

Rally1 (barely) kept Ford and Hyundai from leaving. They were about 3 years too late to keep Citroen or to get Skoda to join (Skoda was attending the technical rules meetings in I believe 2018 with the interest of joining).

Imo Rally2+ could keep about same number of manus, but certainly won't attract new big ones.

Fully electric is the only thing that can attract new manus. Adding artificial sound is the only real obstacle, but seeing how super complicated and advanced rules they did for hybrid power delivery I don't see it as difficult to specify sound levels and their relation to throttle/brakes/liftoff.

With regards to rest of rules there should be limits on power draw from battery (similar to restrictor size now). Most of the other rules are not engine related (aero, difs, suspension travel)
Battery should, at least at first, be same for all.
The size should be enough to make a single stage of up to 40km, but not much more. With focus on fast charging (400 kW ish) of a few mins at multiple stops. That way you also don't have many cars at the charging stop at same time. With 10 ish top cars you will have 3-4 charging at same time.

Before people bring up F1....F1s image is "the best" car with no real relation to production cars, looking completely alien. Rally car image is "same" car as you can buy on normal roads.

[denkimi]

Fully electric is the only thing that can attract new manus.
You are missing the actual point here.

What attracts manufacturers is publicity. What creates publicity is fans watching. And what attracts fans is spectacle and drama.

Hyundai happily pays much more to sponsor the football WK in qatar than they do to sponsor rally, because it gives them more exposure.

Going electric, as electric cars are today, will just cause a big loss in spectators, making it even less attractive to manus.

Rally shouldn't care too much bout manufacturers, they must put what fans want in the first place. Lots of fans will attract sponsors and manufacturers, not the other way around. That's what made group B such a succes.

[Sulland]

You are missing the actual point here.

What attracts manufacturers is publicity. What creates publicity is fans watching. And what attracts fans is spectacle and drama.


I tend to agree.
A gamechanger would be to get a rally version of "drive to survive"

Interrest of F1 has exploded since they got that series, why not also in rally, where the best drivers are and many more areas of drama.

[seb_sh]

You are missing the actual point here.

What attracts manufacturers is publicity. What creates publicity is fans watching. And what attracts fans is spectacle and drama.

Hyundai happily pays much more to sponsor the football WK in qatar than they do to sponsor rally, because it gives them more exposure.

Going electric, as electric cars are today, will just cause a big loss in spectators, making it even less attractive to manus.

Rally shouldn't care too much bout manufacturers, they must put what fans want in the first place. Lots of fans will attract sponsors and manufacturers, not the other way around. That's what made group B such a succes.

This right here. It's time motorsport stops pretending to be road relevant and embrace the entertainment role. WEC is doing that perfectly with the new regulations. The performance is capped and the cars balanced with the goal of creating close racing. The manufacturer's know for sure there won't be an escalating cost due to a development war and they can plan in the expense. Like it or not that's the best way forward for motorsport, sadly the WRC is lagging behind as usual.

[mknight]

You are missing the actual point here.

What attracts manufacturers is publicity. What creates publicity is fans watching. And what attracts fans is spectacle and drama.

Hyundai happily pays much more to sponsor the football WK in qatar than they do to sponsor rally, because it gives them more exposure.

Going electric, as electric cars are today, will just cause a big loss in spectators, making it even less attractive to manus.

Rally shouldn't care too much bout manufacturers, they must put what fans want in the first place. Lots of fans will attract sponsors and manufacturers, not the other way around. That's what made group B such a succes.

2017 WRCs were basically Group B revival. They worked to attract manus and fans for 3 years.

But by end of 2019 the manus started dropping and new ones (Skoda) did not join.
Did the spectacle and drama drop? Nope. Did fan numbers drop? (I don't have facts but I doubt it)


So how come they dropped? According to your explanation everything should have been fine?

How would redoing the same thing again re-attract manus? It wont.


Rally is a combination of spectacle, drama and "normal looking" cars on "normal" roads. You can't just drop one of the sake of the other. F1 or WEC never had the last two parts. They will always have closer fights (cause the cars are on track at same time) and things like Rallycross will always have more "fast" spectacle.

With regards to spectators and electric it depends:
- electric cars can be spectacular in different ways than petrol ones and for a short time you will have "novelty" effect
- for the future you need to look at younger spectators, the 60+ old men talking about 80s will not be main customer group much longer. When I take my son to rally he wonders why there are no electric cars when everyone drives them and they accelerate much faster.






I tend to agree.
A gamechanger would be to get a rally version of "drive to survive"

Interrest of F1 has exploded since they got that series, why not also in rally, where the best drivers are and many more areas of drama.

This I totally agree with. It hugely boosted F1 popularity, last time rally had anything similar was "Engineering world rally" in 2007ish.

Promotion is not directly related with rules though.

[WRCStan]

This thread has cycled back to the evergreen how to attract new manufacturers question, again.

They're not coming whatever the car spec, cost of the car or Netflix shows (loooooooool), or free coverage. Name the candidates.

[AnttiL]

agreed, but if you reinforce an r5 to become similar to an old spec wrc -as u said before- in a way is still a wrc! : )

The biggest difference is that a WRC car by definition has no cost cap, while Rally2 car has. Also the rules state use of certain parts like gearbox (correct me if I'm wrong) for Rally2, and you cannot use a "better" one even if you wanted. Rally2 car uses a lot more "production car" parts, WRC and especially Rally1 more of custom made things, expensive materials. Even the engine cost is hugely different, 30 000 for Rally2 vs 150 000 for Rally1. Remember when Rally1 concept was on the design table, the manufacturers debated about using the WRC engine or the Rally2 engine because one is more expensive but also more reliable.

[mknight]

This thread has cycled back to the evergreen how to attract new manufacturers question, again.

They're not coming whatever the car spec, cost of the car or Netflix shows (loooooooool), or free coverage. Name the candidates.

Skoda (or by extension any mark from VAG, Cupra was mentioned once). They were already on the way and stopped due to slow rule changes.

Stellantis is talking about a candidate and asking for electric.

Renault was talking about joining if it goes electric.


On the other side you have Hyundai likely leaving in case it doesn't turn electric. ( Right now they are working in Ioniq 5 N and already released Kia EV6 GT).


...
And then you have Toyota pushing hydrogen completely alone.

[Kenneth]

Why just not loosen engine rules like in Dakar. Let the cars be powered by whatever you want.

[Oraamat]

Fully electric is the only thing that can attract new manus.
My thoughts exactly. I dont like full electric either, but i think that Fia were hoplessly late with hybrid. 2017 spec cars should have been hybrid and 2022 spec cars should have come full electric. That my opinion.

And if we talk about that publicity, fans, drama etc. Then its double sided sword in my opinion. On one hand some say that going electric will lose spectators, but other hand watching 2.5 manus fighting is getting boring aswell and probably will lose spectators aswell. Im so happy that Ott is in Msport next year. So every team have atleast one fast driver and there should be something to watch and spectate.

[[WRCRR]]

for the future you need to look at younger spectators, the 60+ old men talking about 80s will not be main customer group much longer. When I take my son to rally he wonders why there are no electric cars when everyone drives them and they accelerate much faster.

A key point many here seem to miss. For the record - I am also part of this old geezer group, and love all the nostalgia about "the olden days" - but future will not be defined by the past.

[Jarek Z]

Renault was talking about joining if it goes electric.

Renault? I wouldn't count on them. When was the last time they had a factory team in WRC? 40 years ago... or more?

[AnttiL]

Renault? I wouldn't count on them. When was the last time they had a factory team in WRC? 40 years ago... or more?

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/alpine-reveals-wrc-dakar-rally/8440031/

[focus206]

Renault? I wouldn't count on them. When was the last time they had a factory team in WRC? 40 years ago... or more?

1987 with the R11

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e2/b0/01/e2b001ecb7b63936f2eece6867b4a49b.jpg

[AnttiL]

1987 with the R11

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e2/b0/01/e2b001ecb7b63936f2eece6867b4a49b.jpg

What about the F2 Megane?

[Kenneth]

They also had factory team in early 2010s with Megane N4, although in ERC

[Kenneth]

But it doesn't really matter when was the last time they had factory team... Renault wants to push Alpine as electric sport car brand, they introduced Renault 5 Turbo electric concept etc..

And I bet Audi would go to WRC if it becomes electric. Big brands usually don't last long in Dakar, as was shown by VW, Peugeot or Mini.

[focus206]

What about the F2 Megane?

With the Megane I'm pretty sure they were just doing Tour de Corse (and maybe Monte?), and Renault wasn't registered as a team because F2 was a lower category. The last actual program possibly aimed at the WRC crown was the 1987 R11.

[doubled1978]

But it doesn't really matter when was the last time they had factory team... Renault wants to push Alpine as electric sport car brand, they introduced Renault 5 Turbo electric concept etc..

And I bet Audi would go to WRC if it becomes electric. Big brands usually don't last long in Dakar, as was shown by VW, Peugeot or Mini.

I don’t think you will see Audi back in WRC anytime soon, electric or not.
Competing with Hyundai and Toyota is not where they see their position in the market place, if the VW group returns I would think it would be Skoda or SEAT (Cupra) that is the brand to do so.
I hope that I am proved wrong, I would love to see Audi back, but I don’t see it happening.

[WRCStan]

These conversation suck because they always gets muddy.

Cannot compare a manufacturer's participation now and 1980s or the 90s cups.

Cannot take "manufacturer wants to return to WRC" when all they want to do is have a {Rally2|3|4|5|GT} available for use in..."

My take: Renault, Alpine, Skoda, anything from Stellantis etc etc whoever, will not be full-time paid up investors in the Rally1 promotional circus. That's at least the topic of the conversation I'm interested in.

[Danny0405]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/your-top-50-wrc-drivers-5-1/
After Sainz in WRC polls, it’s now Tanak who won.
Clearly zero value to these polls...

[seb_sh]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/your-top-50-wrc-drivers-5-1/
After Sainz in WRC polls, it’s now Tanak who won.
Clearly zero value to these polls...

According to these polls the killer combination is Tanak in an Octavia WRC :p

[AndyRAC]

I don’t think you will see Audi back in WRC anytime soon, electric or not.
Competing with Hyundai and Toyota is not where they see their position in the market place, if the VW group returns I would think it would be Skoda or SEAT (Cupra) that is the brand to do so.
I hope that I am proved wrong, I would love to see Audi back, but I don’t see it happening.

Correct; they're a 'Premium' brand, and the WRC is not where their competitors are racing. Saying that, I don't think F1 is a good fit for them either.....

I'm not overly optimistic in any new manufacturers joining in the near future; what exactly is in the WRC for them that they can't get elsewhere?

[bandit12]

I would like to see that 🙂

[er88]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/your-top-50-wrc-drivers-5-1/
After Sainz in WRC polls, it’s now Tanak who won.
Clearly zero value to these polls...Lol, Estonians spamming Dirtfish

[typhoon]

Is it so difficult to write down some kind of regulations taking inspiration from the FIA WEC, so that it will accomodate both Hybrid and Electric future's top-class rally cars?

[Eli]

Here we go again: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-current-wrc-problem-that-traces-back-six-years/

[Norm75]

Correct; they're a 'Premium' brand, and the WRC is not where their competitors are racing. Saying that, I don't think F1 is a good fit for them either.....

I'm not overly optimistic in any new manufacturers joining in the near future; what exactly is in the WRC for them that they can't get elsewhere?

Audi won’t join. Wrc just doesn’t have the roi for them to bother. It’s a shame, but rallying is becoming irrelevant and dare I say it a bit boring.
We are back to where we are about 15 years ago. Two manufacturers (and m sport) and it has all become a bit predictable. I love rallying but it doesn’t grip my attention like it once did.
For me it was the spectacle of watching cars you could go out and buy, from multiple manufacturers, with many drivers and not just a handful of cars and drivers as it is now.
I lost interest in the late 2000’s when it was just Ford and Citroen, and Loeb winning everything. I am losing interest again and don’t watch it avidly as I have been. It took 4 manufacturers and a decent amount of drivers to piquet my interest again about a decade ago but it just isn’t doing it for me right now.

And that is me speaking as a 47 year old, that has been interested in rallying for 40 of those years. Unfortunate the sad passing of Ken Block, but the way I see it is Audi were more than happy to throw some money in Ken’s direction and let him do some YouTube videos throwing an Audi around (or Ford, or Subaru) and he would get more interest generated through one video than they would get from running a factory team for a whole season in a championship that not many people other than avid rally fans really care about. Controversial and sad to say, I know, but formula 1, Le Mans 24hrs and even the Dakar rally hold more prestige. Making a drive to survive style docu series won’t change anything either as I have read suggested on here on a couple of occasions.

[fiscorpun]

Populairty comes in waves.... Remember "how Dakar was growing" last year? Well, where is it right now?
We know Dakar is happening, but the coverage and the interest is not even close to what was last year.
I thought Dakar and W2RC would start to EAT WRC, but nope... Just a thing
Same for WEC... Everybody was so excited... but it already died haha Im curious to see the new brands but its already dead. So weird. Maybe WRC will also have its 4 months of big news and promisses... but then, it goes away.
THe modern world is getting SO weird. Not sure you guys agree (especially on the "Wec is already dead again") but Its how I feel. Its like... everything is just propaganda and when we see it at several places ON THE INTERNET it looks incredible and huge.... But nah, racing is ALWAYS just a niche.

[wyler]

did we already discuss this? :D
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-the-wrc-can-capitalize-on-wecs-manufacturer-boom/

[AndyRAC]

Populairty comes in waves.... Remember "how Dakar was growing" last year? Well, where is it right now?
We know Dakar is happening, but the coverage and the interest is not even close to what was last year.
I thought Dakar and W2RC would start to EAT WRC, but nope... Just a thing
Same for WEC... Everybody was so excited... but it already died haha Im curious to see the new brands but its already dead. So weird. Maybe WRC will also have its 4 months of big news and promisses... but then, it goes away.
THe modern world is getting SO weird. Not sure you guys agree (especially on the "Wec is already dead again") but Its how I feel. Its like... everything is just propaganda and when we see it at several places ON THE INTERNET it looks incredible and huge.... But nah, racing is ALWAYS just a niche.

The WEC is dead? What planet are you on....Tell that to all the manufacturers who have joined - and the fans who made Le Mans already a sell out.

[seb_sh]

The WEC is dead? What planet are you on....Tell that to all the manufacturers who have joined - and the fans who made Le Mans already a sell out.

Obviously Toyota, Peugeot, Ferrari, Cadillac, Porsche and next year Lamborghini, BMW and Alpine are all wrong. :P

[fiscorpun]

Obviously Toyota, Peugeot, Ferrari, Cadillac, Porsche and next year Lamborghini, BMW and Alpine are all wrong. :P

No one is watching. Then they will leave in 2 or 3 years JUST LIKE they did in Formula-E, u'know?
So, its just a spike that will brake everybody and everything.... like the "used to be great" LMP2 class. They reduced the engine power.... and now they will end the class participation in the championship. Im not saying manufacturers are wrong, but - as I said - its waves. And these waves destroy everything. The high focus on these TOP Expensive stuff is ruinning motorsport IMO. Rallycross had a fun BOOM too, look at it now! Remember WTCC? Where is it today?
Idk... I just hope WRC dont go on that route, doing ANYTHING for 4 months of news about MANUFACTURERS JOINING... cuz they leave...

[[WRCRR]]

The problem most manufacturers have with joining WRC is that there is so little to gain in today’s atmosphere. I feel even with Toyota dominating WRC the last few years they have gotten very little out of that – luckily Toyota has a motorsport guy at the helm so he will keep them involved regardless. Hyundai has gotten even less (manufacturer champion, does anyone remember?), and now with ex-circuit racing guy leading them I do wonder if they stay for long. If the Red Bull-Ford tie in happens in F1 from 2026 there is even less reason for Ford to be involved in rallying, unless it is a “Malcolm Wilson Special” kind of deal. Renault and Opel (Stellantis) have showed interest but only in electrical rallying. Chinese might come or might not.

It is useless to compare to F1 as the customer element is not really there is true sense, unlike it is in for example WRC and GT’s/WEC. The players who have stayed the longest in motorsport in general are not just factory teams build as marketing effort and/or for showcasing a new technology. They are the ones who have managed to make the customer side a business in itself.

Look at how long M-Sport has managed to hang in there, for years without proper factory support and/or sponsors. It is the strength of their customer side that has given them the backbone. Same with Porsche in GT’s/WEC – even their brand new LMDh program is already a success as a customer business – like basically every single program Porsche has even run in circuit racing (with few exceptions).

The current massive growth of WEC is not sustainable, like it was not in WRC some 20 years ago. The main reason is that most of the players will not manage, or even try to, make it a successful customer game. Porsche will, probably Lamborghini will as well (they are not even coming in to WEC with factory team, it is customer team(s) with factory support). Some others might as well. Toyota and Peugeot probably won’t. At least two efforts are now in WEC (Ferrari, Alpine 2024) because of F1 cost cap and the companies not wanting to lay off a sizable part of their racing division…not really the strongest base to build a long-term programme.

Current Rally1 cars are simply too expensive to make the customer game work, same as the WRC 2017’s were. Only millionaires (or billionaires) are able to buy/rent them, basically. Just ask Malcolm how many Fiesta WRC’s or Puma Rally1’s he has sold. Personally I don’t even like the current cars much, they are too small and too “hot-hatchy” (esp. Toyota/Hyundai) – I much preferred the 1997-2010 WRC’s compared to 2011-2016 WRC’s.

So what is the solution – Rally2+ ? It might serve as a solution especially as the “usual suspects” who would likely join (Citroën and Skoda) have a pretty strong customer-oriented base for their rallying. They would join top level with the backbone already in place. But then…the more players you get on the field, the less chance each of them has for winning, without a spending war. There are “solutions” to that as well, but would WRC like to go down that route…I am of course talking about Balance of Performance (BoP).

WEC has been BoP’d for years already. I personally hope WRC does not because a BoP game as well, although there of course are very good arguments to why it should – it is very difficult to lay out a rules framework where you at the same time keep costs in (relative) check, while at the same time making sure someone is not completely locked out from the fight for the win because they locked in a bad design.

There is a need for balancing, yet I have never seen BoP done right – and can it even be done? When you win when BoP is in place, do you win because of it or regardless of it? In WEC almost all competitiveness arguments always circle around BoP, the winner boasting that they won even with the current BoP, with the loser complaining that they have no chance with the BoP as it is. A cost cap is maybe better option, but not without it's problems (managing the cost cap costs money, just check how many administrative professionals F1 teams have now hired) - also with rallying you have to have a pretty low cost cap for it to work.

So a WRC with BoP and/or cost cap might lure some new players to the game, even if there is not “cutting edge hydrogen” whatnot in the rules on offer. But would they come to play and maybe win, or stay in the long game making the customer side a business and thus having the backbone even during (possibly multiple) lean years to say to the board: “Yeah we might not be winning now but we are still business wise on good track.”

My personal guess is that from 2025 we will see maximum 3 manufacturers in WRC. Small chance that 1 player would be new and one current would leave. Rules will be Rally1 based for 3 years (2025-2027), not 100% electric, not hydrogen. For 2028 a completely new rules framework will be in play, then some new players will join – new energies (plural) will be involved.

[WRCStan]

;1316671']Current Rally1 cars are simply too expensive to make the customer game work, same as the WRC 2017’s were. Only millionaires (or billionaires) are able to buy/rent them, basically. Just ask Malcolm how many Fiesta WRC’s or Puma Rally1’s he has sold.

You're not incorrect, but do you think NASA cancelled the space shuttle program because they didn't sell any?

On BoP, why is it necessary again? Current Rally1s have the same size engine with the same hybrid unit, all weighing the same with wearing the same tyre manufacturer's rubber and the same fuel. Times are seconds apart.

[TypeR]

If they want(seems not) any new manus, they should put the new regulations out this year, otherwise new teams don't have enough time to build and develop the car..

[wyler]

;1316671']The problem most manufacturers have with joining WRC is that there is so little to gain in today’s atmosphere. I feel even with Toyota dominating WRC the last few years they have gotten very little out of that – luckily Toyota has a motorsport guy at the helm so he will keep them involved regardless. Hyundai has gotten even less (manufacturer champion, does anyone remember?), and now with ex-circuit racing guy leading them I do wonder if they stay for long. If the Red Bull-Ford tie in happens in F1 from 2026 there is even less reason for Ford to be involved in rallying, unless it is a “Malcolm Wilson Special” kind of deal. Renault and Opel (Stellantis) have showed interest but only in electrical rallying. Chinese might come or might not.

It is useless to compare to F1 as the customer element is not really there is true sense, unlike it is in for example WRC and GT’s/WEC. The players who have stayed the longest in motorsport in general are not just factory teams build as marketing effort and/or for showcasing a new technology. They are the ones who have managed to make the customer side a business in itself.

Look at how long M-Sport has managed to hang in there, for years without proper factory support and/or sponsors. It is the strength of their customer side that has given them the backbone. Same with Porsche in GT’s/WEC – even their brand new LMDh program is already a success as a customer business – like basically every single program Porsche has even run in circuit racing (with few exceptions).

The current massive growth of WEC is not sustainable, like it was not in WRC some 20 years ago. The main reason is that most of the players will not manage, or even try to, make it a successful customer game. Porsche will, probably Lamborghini will as well (they are not even coming in to WEC with factory team, it is customer team(s) with factory support). Some others might as well. Toyota and Peugeot probably won’t. At least two efforts are now in WEC (Ferrari, Alpine 2024) because of F1 cost cap and the companies not wanting to lay off a sizable part of their racing division…not really the strongest base to build a long-term programme.

Current Rally1 cars are simply too expensive to make the customer game work, same as the WRC 2017’s were. Only millionaires (or billionaires) are able to buy/rent them, basically. Just ask Malcolm how many Fiesta WRC’s or Puma Rally1’s he has sold. Personally I don’t even like the current cars much, they are too small and too “hot-hatchy” (esp. Toyota/Hyundai) – I much preferred the 1997-2010 WRC’s compared to 2011-2016 WRC’s.

So what is the solution – Rally2+ ? It might serve as a solution especially as the “usual suspects” who would likely join (Citroën and Skoda) have a pretty strong customer-oriented base for their rallying. They would join top level with the backbone already in place. But then…the more players you get on the field, the less chance each of them has for winning, without a spending war. There are “solutions” to that as well, but would WRC like to go down that route…I am of course talking about Balance of Performance (BoP).

WEC has been BoP’d for years already. I personally hope WRC does not because a BoP game as well, although there of course are very good arguments to why it should – it is very difficult to lay out a rules framework where you at the same time keep costs in (relative) check, while at the same time making sure someone is not completely locked out from the fight for the win because they locked in a bad design.

There is a need for balancing, yet I have never seen BoP done right – and can it even be done? When you win when BoP is in place, do you win because of it or regardless of it? In WEC almost all competitiveness arguments always circle around BoP, the winner boasting that they won even with the current BoP, with the loser complaining that they have no chance with the BoP as it is. A cost cap is maybe better option, but not without it's problems (managing the cost cap costs money, just check how many administrative professionals F1 teams have now hired) - also with rallying you have to have a pretty low cost cap for it to work.

So a WRC with BoP and/or cost cap might lure some new players to the game, even if there is not “cutting edge hydrogen” whatnot in the rules on offer. But would they come to play and maybe win, or stay in the long game making the customer side a business and thus having the backbone even during (possibly multiple) lean years to say to the board: “Yeah we might not be winning now but we are still business wise on good track.”

My personal guess is that from 2025 we will see maximum 3 manufacturers in WRC. Small chance that 1 player would be new and one current would leave. Rules will be Rally1 based for 3 years (2025-2027), not 100% electric, not hydrogen. For 2028 a completely new rules framework will be in play, then some new players will join – new energies (plural) will be involved.

rally1 is not for race customers, there's rally2 for this. rally1 is battlefield for the few manus that want to invest. rally2+ is basically a copy of the current rally2 concept. only customer brand will join, and not with factory team. rally1 manu will leave, or have customer racing dept.

bop will be needed only if fia will liberalize propulsion (hy, electric, hydrogen,...)

[Eli]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-confident-its-2025-rally1-rules-evolution-can-entice-new-brands/10424118/

New rules for 2025 should be introduced in two months. They're also pretty confident another manufacturer will join.

[Rallyest]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-confident-its-2025-rally1-rules-evolution-can-entice-new-brands/10424118/

New rules for 2025 should be introduced in two months. They're also pretty confident another manufacturer will join.

They were pretty confident before the Hybrid regulations that a new manufacturer will join, sooooo would not be so sure about that

[becher]

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/rally/wrc-can-follow-f1-model-for-success-says-m-sport-boss?v=fa868488740a

Interesting interview with Millener about opening up the championship to independent teams/constructors to combat the waning interest of car manufacturers.

In my opinion a F1 style approach where you are not dependent on manufacturers would be perfect, but WRC isn't a business like F1 is, so how could this work commercially?

[Kenneth]

Interesting interview with Millener about opening up the championship to independent teams/constructors to combat the waning interest of car manufacturers.



This would be the best, for sure would help create a customer program too. Also as I said in another thread, there is need to loosen or at least change powertrain rules. No one will join WRC when they need to develop an expensive brand new purpose-made engine that cannot be used in any other series or road car and is almost the most expensive part of Rally1. No matter if there is hybrid or not.

[lmmjvss]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-confident-its-2025-rally1-rules-evolution-can-entice-new-brands/10424118/
New rules for 2025 should be introduced in two months. They're also pretty confident another manufacturer will join.

Doubt.... But both FIA and WRC know that Toyota wants hybrid, Renault wants electric, Stellantis wants hybrid... Work with that cuz it sounds interesting and "it looks like a Rally2+ thing"

[becher]

Doubt.... But both FIA and WRC know that Toyota wants hybrid, Renault wants electric, Stellantis wants hybrid... Work with that cuz it sounds interesting and "it looks like a Rally2+ thing"

Rally2+ won't happen as they will base the "new rules" on the current Rally1 regulations => spaceframe and third party hybrid unit.

[steve.mandzij]

at one point I would also have supported a Rally2+ thing but it's clear neither FIA nor the teams want that. plus, it would be messing with a formula that is working fine as things stand now, and making it the top class and/or hybrid would increase the costs that make it "accessible".

i liked Richard Millener's thoughts on the matter

[fiscorpun]

Extreme-E to start testing its new car in June. The car runs on Hydrogen and the new class will be called Extreme-H. Serie's owner dont know if its going to be a totally new Championship or something to compete together with the Electric Trucks. But... Anyway... Is the sport "moving forward" while I feel WRC is stuck in time :(

[steve.mandzij]

Extreme-E to start testing its new car in June. The car runs on Hydrogen and the new class will be called Extreme-H. Serie's owner dont know if its going to be a totally new Championship or something to compete together with the Electric Trucks. But... Anyway... Is the sport "moving forward" while I feel WRC is stuck in time :(nobody cares about extreme e, frankly

[fiscorpun]

nobody cares about extreme e, frankly

I agree with you... HOWEEEEVER:
Hummer, Cupra, McLaren, Michael Andretti, Loeb, Nassr, Sainz, Hamilton, Button, Rosberg, Kristofferson, Tanner Foust, Emma..... What we have here in WRC? Ford pretending they have a team? At this point nobody care about WRC eithet, mate. But E-E is looking forward, WRC became DirtFish followers saying WE NEED RALLY2+
:(

[Franky]

If WRC is niche, then Extreme-E is a micro niche of a niche.

[Duvel]

at one point I would also have supported a Rally2+ thing but it's clear neither FIA nor the teams want that. plus, it would be messing with a formula that is working fine as things stand now, and making it the top class and/or hybrid would increase the costs that make it "accessible".

i liked Richard Millener's thoughts on the matter

I liked the toughts off Millener also!

My personal thougts would be that they let each manufacturor use the power suply they wont to promote. Than think of a decent way to arrange BOP! A championship where different kinds of energys are used would be a new thing. And each manufacturor could promote there system. Difficult to work out, i know but imagine a championship where EV's compete whit combustion, hybrid and hydrogen cars.

Al systems being build now, in one championship. Each brand can promote to be champion, like brand A is champ in total (lets say whit hybrid), and brand B can still be saying we are the champs in hydrogen wrc.. Other one is best Electric car;;


Than the Millener thougts where several private teams build own cars, whit power suply system they can buy from manu teams.

[bwallace]

Ain't they do" open test " in otepaa rally estonia with tanak and serderidis one week bedore rally sweden ??

[AnttiL]

My personal thougts would be that they let each manufacturor use the power suply they wont to promote. Than think of a decent way to arrange BOP! A championship where different kinds of energys are used would be a new thing. And each manufacturor could promote there system. Difficult to work out, i know but imagine a championship where EV's compete whit combustion, hybrid and hydrogen cars.

I like this idea, although I know it could lead into problems with one being superior and requiring separate safety systems for each power source

[focus206]

One has to be careful playing with BoP. Ideally, it should level the field a bit, like it does in GT World Challenge. But in FIA championships such as WEC and WTCR it's often horrible, and it swings considerable advantages each round. For example in WEC, it often led to Ferrari being clearly the better car in rounds 1, 3, 5 etc. and Porsche being clearly the better car in rounds 2, 4, 6 etc.

[seb_sh]

One has to be careful playing with BoP. Ideally, it should level the field a bit, like it does in GT World Challenge. But in FIA championships such as WEC and WTCR it's often horrible, and it swings considerable advantages each round. For example in WEC, it often led to Ferrari being clearly the better car in rounds 1, 3, 5 etc. and Porsche being clearly the better car in rounds 2, 4, 6 etc.

GTWC and GT3 in IMSA and NLS also had issues for a while, both with their process and competitors gaming the system. They gradually got better over time. They also mandated more sensors so they can detect sandbagging. There are some articles and interviews in Race car engineering magazine about the details.

No system is perfect but from a viewer point of view I prefer BOP to an arms race that ends up in escalating cost and teams leaving. I think that's the fundamental difference in the current wave of manufacturers interest in WEC and F1. Specifically the costs are way more predictable and in the case of WEC you are almost guaranteed to have a shot at victory. So the cost/benefit is pretty good especially due to Le Mans in WEC's case. The race is already sold out since December and they are building more stands and will probably issue more tickets.

The WRC needs better promotion and some form of more direct cost limitation to improve the ROI and some manufacturers will come. Capping testing is easily overcome. I could see a type of WEC BOP working. For those that don't know the, part of the WEC BOP is a mandated "performance window" of aero efficiency. They put the cars in a wind tunnel and there's a limit of how good a car can be. From the purist perspective it's horrible and artificial. From the viewer it means the teams can design interesting and different cars, just compare the Peugeot with the Ferrari for an example. Another way to go would be a Dakar type Equivalence of Technology and allow free drivetrain choice. Hybrids, EVs and Fuel Cell could compete. I think that's a bit further away. There are complaints about the EOT sure, but the alternative is people shrugging and saying we can't compete with X they have a huge budget and we can't keep up.

The WRC is not doing that bad, 5 drivers and 3 cars have won rallies in the last two years but it's on thin ice. What if MSport falls behind again and Hyundai go to F1? Do we watch Toyota sweep a few years clean or do we fall back to Rally2? Or do we have some plan? That's what WRC management should be asking themselves.

[steve.mandzij]

for me the BoP idea makes complete sense, not only from a manufacturer engagement standpoint, but from a historical view as well. rallying in the widely considered "golden age" of Group B was a bunch of different drivetrain, layout, body style, and construction concepts battling against each other. then in the group A and early WRC days (for me the true golden age of competition) there were supermini inline fours vs flat four saloons, etc etc.

of course I'm not saying this historical relevance is the reason I support BoP, but it just so happens that the best-regarded eras of the sport coincide with periods of regulations that promoted innovation and competition between different concepts with their own characteristics. moving forward with an open mind and allowing different power sources to compete on equal footing could be a good idea.

[AndyRAC]

BoP seems to be a neccesary 'evil' if you want to attract more than a few manufacturers. It hasn't put off the many entering the WEC & IMSA series. I don't like it, but providing it's done properly, and openly, it can work to a degree; however I have a problem with it being changed after qualifying.....Once practice starts...then that should be it.

However, it's not likely to be needed in the WRC as I can't see them coming up with more than one 'formula' for future cars; Sportscars has historically seen differing cars/engines, etc Rallying in the recent era hasn't; the top class has been 2.0T 4WD, 1.6T 4WD.

[lmmjvss]

My personal thougts would be that they let each manufacturor use the power suply they wont to promote. Than think of a decent way to arrange BOP! A championship where different kinds of energys are used would be a new thing. And each manufacturor could promote there system. Difficult to work out, i know but imagine a championship where EV's compete whit combustion, hybrid and hydrogen cars.
.

Hmmm but we kinda know that motorsport is not about PROMOTING technological stuff anymore.
I mean, I think one can fool "f1" and "formula-e" fans in a way... but I think Rally fans are not like that.
Honestly, what has been promoted in F1 right now? Nothing but drama between drivers and the team's principals, right? In Formula-E there was something for a while. The electric engines, of course... but the actual advances were on batteries and chassis (all spec! Kudos to Williams and Dallara or whatever names they use) and thats it. Bmw, audi and Mercedes left simply because they were promoting nothing to no one haha. Idk man... I agree that WEC is having this boom, but its not going to last, its so obvious. I dont think motorsport is here to PROMOTE tech, u'know?
And at the same time, I dont think a "drive to survive" thing to WRC (or to ALL THE OTHER series.. since EVERYBODY now thinks every chapionship should copy that) would do anything for the sport. Theres no drama, no FIGHT on track, no angry driver saying sh*t on the radio... Its so confusing to think about "What should WRC do" right now IMO. Sooo weird.
The most fun I had watching Rallying in recent years was 2019 and 2020 ERC seasons tbh, so I honestly dont think having these big powerfull cars and manufacturers are NECESSARY to an amazing championship... tho i LOVE these crazy fast machines... ahahh IDK man, its so confusing

[Duvel]

But rally is the ideal tool to promote your technology. Cars are also stil recognized as the production models. So thats an advantage for wrc over championships like f1 or even Dakar.

Use different drivetrains, but let them produce the same power output! That is a start.
For aero and suspension etc. Rules are still the same for all.

Constructor advertising a hydrogen powered (lets say) Toyota Yaris, can make posters/advertising whit car that is for sale in there showrooms! Thats 1 on 1 proof of how good the technology works. Customer (not die hard rally fan) doesn't need to know that (let's say) Hyundai whit petrol/hybrid is maybe faster sometimes.

To cut costs is also difficult, no space frame cars seems like a good start, R5 shell we could say. There's a lot of decent race teams around that can build cars like that(hansen in rx for example) those can than buy power unit from manufacturer like millner suggested.

[fiscorpun]

But rally is the ideal tool to promote your technology. Cars are also stil recognized as the production models. So thats an advantage for wrc over championships like f1 or even Dakar.
.

The guys on WTCC foruns used to say THE EXACT same thing.
The "race on sunday sell on monday" works for less than 0,1% nowadays... AND u'd need a huge character to make that happen (like a Ken Block). And people who sees a car in a showroom will not start watching a racing series that runs for 3 days on a pay-to-watch model.

[Duvel]

But these days a lot of customers are doubting wich type (read power suply) they would chose. So if a manufacturer can "prove" its a good system it might help!

Rally nowadays has less fans than in the past, whit different systems/fuels the potential of winning over new crowd is also bigger. (not one green guy wil support petrol/hy, cars anymore). So to get new public it would also be good.

Also, i think nobody now has the answer wat wil be bets choise in the future. And car manufactorors also are not sure, so for a global championship playing that card would be a smart move i think.

Keeping only petrol /hybrid, wil not make any new fans..

[AndyRAC]

But rally is the ideal tool to promote your technology. Cars are also still recognized as the production models. So that's an advantage for WRC over championships like f1 or even Dakar.


Yes, in theory it is. In reality - it's sadly not the case.....and that's down to those running the WRC.

[Franky]

But these days a lot of customers are doubting wich type (read power suply) they would chose. So if a manufacturer can "prove" its a good system it might help!

Rally nowadays has less fans than in the past, whit different systems/fuels the potential of winning over new crowd is also bigger. (not one green guy wil support petrol/hy, cars anymore). So to get new public it would also be good.

Also, i think nobody now has the answer wat wil be bets choise in the future. And car manufactorors also are not sure, so for a global championship playing that card would be a smart move i think.

Keeping only petrol /hybrid, wil not make any new fans..

I don't believe promoting technology via motorsports would get you more sales. Brand awareness, yes. The reason why I don't believe in the sales scenario is that now people look at cars differently. In a way all of them are the same, unless you go for the very basic cars that are still a decade or so behind current style with big screens and so on.

Of course there are the nutters who care about what some brand is promoting or representing when it comes to technology. But that's a tiny minority.

But the idea of opening up the top class for different approaches sounds like a good one.

[lmmjvss]

But the idea of opening up the top class for different approaches sounds like a good one.

Yes. Idk how BoP would work, but maybe something simple like X HP / Y Weight? Fuel Flow doesnt matter in rallying like in WEC, right?
My IDEAL top class for 2025 would be: Electric Renault 3E vs Hydrogen Yaris vs Vermont's Subarus with Boxer engine vs The new car Skoda releases almost every year vs Ralliart using whatever they want vs whatever Toksport, PetterSolberg's team, Msport and ProDrive can get their hands on. It looks like more of a "rally2+" thing in my mind than the current Rally1 supercars but Im fine with that

[lmmjvss]

The rally2 cars are all very similar nowadays, right? I mean, of course teams with more money can always improve that little extra, but in general they are all very close. Is there BoP in that class?
And cant WRC just elaborate something for the hydrigen yaris, the electric renault 3e and the boxer subaru to fit them in this class?
I mean, it looks simple... Or am I missing something? (Not considering the will of these brands to join)

[becher]

Yes. Idk how BoP would work, but maybe something simple like X HP / Y Weight? Fuel Flow doesnt matter in rallying like in WEC, right?
My IDEAL top class for 2025 would be: Electric Renault 3E vs Hydrogen Yaris vs Vermont's Subarus with Boxer engine vs The new car Skoda releases almost every year vs Ralliart using whatever they want vs whatever Toksport, PetterSolberg's team, Msport and ProDrive can get their hands on. It looks like more of a "rally2+" thing in my mind than the current Rally1 supercars but Im fine with that

Fuel flow is just another way of limiting engine power, in rallying its all done by air restrictors so you don't need expensive fuel flow meters.

[becher]

The rally2 cars are all very similar nowadays, right? I mean, of course teams with more money can always improve that little extra, but in general they are all very close. Is there BoP in that class?
And cant WRC just elaborate something for the hydrigen yaris, the electric renault 3e and the boxer subaru to fit them in this class?
I mean, it looks simple... Or am I missing something? (Not considering the will of these brands to join)
No BoP in Rally2, no BoP in rallying anyway as all regulations are traditional regulations where manufacturers build the best car they can within the parameters set by the regulations. And since all manufacturers were smart enough in the last twenty years to not bring something stupid to the party, no BoP was needed to help manufacturers that use a unsuitable base car to get competitive. GT racing only needed BoP to balance between all the different base cars, without BoP all manufacturers would field a mid engined carbon chassis with a turbocharged engine and land barges like a Bentley, Nissan GTR and BMW M8 would not stand a chance. The fact that Prototypes also have BoP regulations now is because the FIA/ACO/manufacturers f*** up when discussing the regulations. So BoP isn't really necessary in rallying.

[AnttiL]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-developing-experimental-propulsion-class/10425303/


The WRC is expected to announce further details of its vision for the future at Rally Portugal in May which could include a new platform to allow alternative power methods to be developed within the championship.

While details of the class and its launch remain limited at this stage, it may follow a similar concept as seen at the Le Mans 24 Hours through its Garage 56 initiative.

“There will be more released around Portugal time around the new technical evolution [beyond 2025] and about having a demonstration class to allow experimental propulsion systems within the WRC, to provide that as a platform of experimentation and development and we are absolutely supportive of that and that will happen,” WRC event director Simon Larkin told Autosport

[wyler]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-developing-experimental-propulsion-class/10425303/

that could be the first good idea in ages!

[fiscorpun]

Renault is working on a Hybrid project to compete in Dakar.............................................
WRC loses again

[fiscorpun]

Just for the sake of sharing infos on "THE FUTURE OF RACING" (.....) , the Scandinavian Touring Car STCC will be racing with only electric cars in 2023. I was not following the news from this championship, so this is news for me.
They'll have Teslas, BMWs i4 and VWs ID3... Cupra and another brand are also expected. I mean, not FACTORY TEAMS, I think they will all be running the same "STARD" machinery, but anyway... theres this visible path into motorsport where everybody races spec electric and hybrids parts because its cheaper or whatever... but they are slowly heading into that direction more and more. Idk if theres a turning point on "Well, we tried evs but lets just go back to regular engines build on our garages". Anyway.. just sharing this cuz Im interested ....in a way. The "junior class" for the STCC is also going full electric. From what Ive read, one of the teams will be runing an elecric MiniCooper.... thats rad IMO lol
https://www.touringcartimes.com/2022/12/21/stcc-set-capacity-2022-grid-production-slots-filled/

[Sergiow]

BlackBook Motorsport Forum session at the Kennington Oval in London,27th April 2023 entitled ‘Monetisation masterclass’, including Ali Russell of #ExtremeE & Philipp Männer of #WRC, interviewed by Cian Brittle of BlackBook Motorsport.

The way by which motorsport series, circuits, teams and brands digitally engage with fans has transformed in recent years. Whether it be the shift to OTT and D2C platforms or the growth and popularity of original content, digital innovation is undoubtedly the key to success in today’s industry. In this monetisation masterclass, you will learn:

- How to best monetise digital platforms
- Why original content is the key to audience and viewership growth
- How OTT is becoming a fundamental part of growing revenue (OTT Apps, or Over-The-Top Applications, let your audience stream video from their preferred devices, like mobile smart TVs and tablets, whenever they want.)



Note: searching deeper into "monetisation WRC", those might be some of the topics discussed at the BlackBook Motorsport Forum:

"In nearly 50 years of the rally’s existence, we have seen numerous practical solutions trickle down into our world of classical event planning. I’ve compiled a list of 15 things that meeting planners can learn from the FIA World Rally Championship in hopes of helping you create better events after the corona crisis."
https://kongres-magazine.eu/2021/05/what-can-meeting-planners-learn-from-wrc-world-rally-championship/

[Franky]

To be honest, I'd rather be more interested in F1 take than WRC. Just the level of effectiveness. Already when you compare F1 or the feeder series highlights on Youtube and WRC's, it's like comparing engaging content with bed time stories for the elderly.

[AndyRAC]

The only masterclass the WRC knows is how not to run a global sports series.....Why would you get them in a discussion. Was nobody else available?

[the sniper]

It'll be interesting if they do actually reveal any numbers regarding their monetisation of their digital platforms. They've publicly revealed very little over the years regarding how well All Live has actually done...

[Franky]

It'll be interesting if they do actually reveal any numbers regarding their monetisation of their digital platforms. They've publicly revealed very little over the years regarding how well All Live has actually done...

Very unlikely. Think Netflix still hasn't published any actually useful viewing metrics.

[Sergiow]

To be honest, I'd rather be more interested in F1 take than WRC. Just the level of effectiveness. Already when you compare F1 or the feeder series highlights on Youtube and WRC's, it's like comparing engaging content with bed time stories for the elderly.

Since the masterclass was about OTT (= WRC+) then WRC has a big advantage comparing with F1. Regarding the WRC cars, that is not the area of the promotor, here it is FIA who is calling the shots, so that is another discussion. But regarding F1, just check this devastating article, "Jalopnik spoke to several fans who attended F1's much-hyped race in Miami. The verdict wasn't good for the growth of the sport."
https://jalopnik.com/f1s-us-race-strategy-not-convincing-fans-stick-around-1850374011

“I don’t know if I had any expectations of Miami, but my biggest takeaway was that this race felt geared toward corporations rather than fans,”

“I had this bad feeling about it from the moment I bought my tickets,” he said. “I convinced my wife to swing by Monaco on our honeymoon. Miami’s prices? Blew Monaco out of the water.”

“But it was the first time at the track where I didn’t feel like I had anything in common with anybody else,” he added, his voice tinged with sadness. “I was like, this isn’t racing. This isn’t Formula 1. It’s a high-end selfie museum in a parking lot.”

In a thruthfull way, I do not think anyone assisting a WRC rally would make that kind of comments ...

[Franky]

Since the masterclass was about OTT (= WRC+) then WRC has a big advantage comparing with F1. Regarding the WRC cars, that is not the area of the promotor, here it is FIA who is calling the shots, so that is another discussion. But regarding F1, just check this devastating article, "Jalopnik spoke to several fans who attended F1's much-hyped race in Miami. The verdict wasn't good for the growth of the sport."
https://jalopnik.com/f1s-us-race-strategy-not-convincing-fans-stick-around-1850374011

“I don’t know if I had any expectations of Miami, but my biggest takeaway was that this race felt geared toward corporations rather than fans,”

“I had this bad feeling about it from the moment I bought my tickets,” he said. “I convinced my wife to swing by Monaco on our honeymoon. Miami’s prices? Blew Monaco out of the water.”

“But it was the first time at the track where I didn’t feel like I had anything in common with anybody else,” he added, his voice tinged with sadness. “I was like, this isn’t racing. This isn’t Formula 1. It’s a high-end selfie museum in a parking lot.”

In a thruthfull way, I do not think anyone assisting a WRC rally would make that kind of comments ...

It's getting a bit off topic, but it seems there's some misunderstanding.

I was comparing the coverage of events on Youtube, the highlights videos by promoters. Nothing to do with the cars.

Realistically you have the linear and digital market. The reason I chose digital instead of OTT is that when you say OTT you mostly think SVOD, but there's so much more happening than SVOD. After SVOD came AVOD, now FAST and who knows what will be next year. Plus all other options. It feels a lot like smoke and mirrors, when it comes to digital.

I am a bit confused why are you bringing up a single Grand Prix. Aren't F1 GPs organized by separate companies who have a deal with the promoter and ticket sales profit the organizer of the GP? I do understand the FOMO effect mentioned in the article, but you need to be able to milk the popularity while you have it. If you don't do anything, then you'll be starting the next campaign from further back as well.

There are plenty of not the happiest experiences from WRC events as well. Be it the passed out drunks at noon, inexperienced marshals, idiots on stage that get the stage cancelled, etc. My personal favorite would be paid road side parking in Finland and a very long walk to the stage. But that was years ago by now.

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hybrid-could-be-ditched-for-2025-wrc-season/

Compact Dynamics' contract hasn't been renewed for 2025 and FIA technical director says it's a possibility run the cars without hybrid unit.

My suggestion would be to let the teams develop the hybrid units.

[becher]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hybrid-could-be-ditched-for-2025-wrc-season/

Compact Dynamics' contract hasn't been renewed for 2025 and FIA technical director says it's a possibility run the cars without hybrid unit.

My suggestion would be to let the teams develop the hybrid units.
That would be a worthy solution for a top category, but I don't really see the teams or any future interested parties liking that suggestion.

[becher]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/david-evans-the-hybrid-alternative-wrc-should-consider/

An opinion piece by Evans about the future direction of the regulations. I don't normally see Evans as a person worth listening too in regards of such topics, but this time he's quite sensible.

[mknight]

Nope, this is way off.

Specially the point that you could buy so many liters of efuel for the money spend on hybrid reveals something is backwards in his head. Kinda like saying coal is cheaper than gas so we should all use coal at home.

If going for low cost then run Rally2 on efuel.

If going for max manu PR then go for full electric.

Going for efuel without hybrid while keeping expensive Rally1 carbon prototypes mixes worst of two worlds.

[ouvreur]

"But what we have with e-fuel is an opportunity to genuinely change the world."

The words of a man who clearly has no clue just how horrible the stuff is, the damage it does to seals and gaskets in a 'traditional' gasoline fuel system, and how badly it will damage various components if you leave it in the car for too long.

It's the WRC's dirty little secret - the amount of engine oil that has to be thrown away to guard against terminal engine damage. A full oil change every service for every car using P1 fuel. Stick that in your headline, Davey boy. And it will happen in the Australian Outback, up the Zoji La pass, or any other obscure place you might pretentiously name-drop.

Hydrogen looks much more likely to be a long-term answer. Synthetic fuel is a stop-gap, and not a very nice one.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I agree re hydrogen. Any other fuel has a seriously bad effect on the environment either in production or pollution.

But getting this into rallying just isn't going to happen as most car manufacturers (except Toyota) have gone all-in on EVs and wont be changing any time soon.

In the meantime rallying is and has to be as dirty as every other type of transport and e-fuels are just a PR exercise to cover it up.

[ouvreur]

I agree re hydrogen. Any other fuel has a seriously bad effect on the environment either in production or pollution.

But getting this into rallying just isn't going to happen as most car manufacturers (except Toyota) have gone all-in on EVs and wont be changing any time soon.

In the meantime rallying is and has to be as dirty as every other type of transport and e-fuels are just a PR exercise to cover it up.

Hyundai offer a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle for sale in Europe, the Nexo, and have invested heavily in that technology. GM, Land Rover and BMW are all planning hydrogen fuel cell models in the next 5 years.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

FIA TECHNICAL DIRECTOR XAVIER MESTELAN PINON HAS TALKED THROUGH THE OPTIONS...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-fias-three-options-for-wrcs-future-propulsion/

[106 sport]

https://as.com/motor/mas_motor/canarias-acaricia-acoger-el-mundial-en-2025-n/

Gran Canaria is looking forward to hosting the World Championship in 2025



The event that currently scores for the European Championship wants to celebrate its 50th anniversary incorporated into the World Championship. The alternation with Catalonia is being considered.

Rallies are the 'national sport' in the Canary Islands. Above football or any other discipline, the specialty of the timed sections is the one that gathers more fans and attention in the Fortunate Islands. This was experienced last weekend at the Rally Islas Canarias, with the ditches full of enthusiasts following the second meeting of the European Championship of the season. But its organizers want more and are already looking forward to hosting the World Championship.
The promoter of the European Championship is the same as that of the World Championship, and that has opened the doors to fight to make the dream of the Canarian fans come true. The negotiation began just when the Rally of Catalonia lost the scoring in the World Championship 2023. Germán Morales, the head of the Rally Islas Canarias, began talks to welcome the WRC to his land. A work that continues at a good pace with the support of the island authorities, who see with very good eyes the project as an excellent showcase for tourism.


The idea would be to host the World Rally starting in 2025, with the aim that in 2026, the year in which the 50th edition of the Rally Islas Canarias will be held, the best drivers and cars in the world will delight the islanders' fans. Several scenarios are being considered, and among them it is not ruled out to start an alternation between the Canary Islands and Catalonia sharing the WRC title.
The rally is one of the most prestigious in Europe, and has in its list of winners the likes of Carlos Sainz, who triumphed in five consecutive editions between 1985 and 1989, Didier Auriol, Piero Liatti, Gilles Panizzi or Chus Puras. Luis Monzón, winner of the race in 1994 and 2008, has affirmed that "the organization has been doing things very well for years and sooner rather than later the Rally Islas Canarias will be in the World Championship. The fans deserve it".

[Fast Eddie WRC]

WRC has reached a critical point says Neuville...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/neuville-wrc-has-reached-a-critical-point-needs-change/10467803/

[Eli]

WRC has reached a critical point says Neuville...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/neuville-wrc-has-reached-a-critical-point-needs-change/10467803/

Would be nice of him to elaborate on his idea(s), and at least someone over there is pointing out the obvious, Toyota were the last one to join back in 2017 and Citroen have been absent for more than 3 years...and you could definitely say the WRC has been going downhill since, even if at least now they started bothering with new events.

[EstWRC]

This series is dead as hell

Now just 6 cars remaining with Taka continuing with super rally at rally Portugal, so basically 5

WORLD RALLY CHAMPSIONSHIPS, lol

[skarderud]

Rally2 class has to be the mainclass, maybe some +version to be a no1 class.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[denkimi]

wrc just needs to walk away from the idea that only big car manufacturers are allowed to build a car.
they need to go to a f1 formula where private teams can also build a car and compete.

[seb_sh]

Rally2 class has to be the mainclass, maybe some +version to be a no1 class.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

I was thinking at the start of Portugal that if you downgrade the Rally1 crews to Rally2 cars it would be an awesome start list. Unfortunately then the Rally2 grid was decimated by punctures so it's all a bit pointless now.

[typhoon]

The WRC Promoter can do a lot to improve the championship, I will put some ideas that might help this:

SERVICE PARK

Create them always at the city center or somewhere very easy to access (No more Turkey in the forest or Jordan in the Dead Sea), the location must be central and reachable, while it desperately needs collateral activities and transform it into a "festival" even when the service times are not running. What do I mean: Create nice food courts, engagement areas with the global partners, game areas whether the people can give a shot on the WRC videogame and participate to contests to win gadgets, think about a small stage to host concerts with national guests that can attract also general public.

MEDIA COVERAGE
The Media Mix they decided to pursuit definitely failed, so they need to focus on the following points, in order to have the same revenues from TV rights, having in mind quantity (=cheaper) over quality (i.e. rich ones) of the contracts signed with the broadcasters, which will improve visibility while bringing the same income to the series eventually.
- Free-To-Air broadcasters deals around Europe and in key markets
- Re-develop the whole Asian market, which (except Japan) is almost totally disappeared. What a shame!
- Redevelop their social media strategy, with more engaging and exclusive contents (i.e.: short behind-the-scenes videos and more free live coverage on YouTube, for example during the MediaZone before the service park to wrap-up the day).

EVENT MANAGEMENT
- Create unique and spectacular starts in each event, like the one in Guanajuato, Mexico.
- Mandatory Thursday Superspecial in iconic venues (like the Olympic Stadium SSS in Athens, Greece)
- Set-up iconic spectators area in the Special Stages on all events, with maxiscreens, fan-zones, sponsor stands and VIP areas (Sweden do it very well!)

MARKETING EVENTS
- Revive the WRC Launch Event before the season starts
- Arrange agreements for WRC Road Shows events in key cities (maximum 3 events around the world: Beijing, Sao Paulo, London or Berlin)
- Revive the WRC Awards at the end of the season
- Create 2-3 WRC collective Test events with TV coverage (one before the season starts, another one in Norway on snow before Rally Sweden and another one on gravel before the "gravel season" starts).

E-SPORTS
- Create a new and more spectacular WRC game, which it finally seems in the pipeline with EA Sports-Codemasters
- Develop an arena with 2-3000 spectators for the WRC Game World Finals (Greece can budget it with no problems) with entertaining activities with the fans and the WRC drivers as well.


All that said:
they need to reduce costs of building and maintain a Rally1 car, which is spectacular but way too expensive, while opening finally to the Balance of Performance, in order to attract as much Manufacturers as possible, like perfectly did the ACO and the FIA with the World Endurance Championship, which now in the WRC should be used as a case study.