WRC main class in 2025

[deephouse]

I think that movie Race for glory: Audi vs Lancia will help. That kind of stuff. I like that DirtFish ''backstories'', where they are joking around. We can see that drivers can smile and bring them closer to us deadthlings. Also their different stories help. I like to read random stuff from past and current situations, where there is lots of stuff that someone may even don't know, happened.

EDIT: I kinda noticed that many WRC2 drivers do have woman co-drivers. Exposing them could bring some interest for audience. I think that generaly co-drivers do have minimal exposure and we barely get something from them. But actualy they have very important role.

[WRCStan]

I'll be brief..

F1 fans aren't fans because they can go out and buy a Ferrari or high end Benz or McLaren on Monday are they?

Same with NASCAR... well maybe you can go buy a Camry on Monday but they're not the same!

Something's done right with those two sports yes... how can Rallying become the same or utilize what they're got that WRC doesn't have?

Fair enough that WRC is going "Greener" but it's a shame it is not what it use to be. With stories and higher personalities.

My point is you can't have a Rally2 without the manufacturer on board with the project. When Peugeot are only making e-208s, will they approve an ICE in their marque and product's names? Why would the FIA expect them too? Unless the sport is designated as historic motorsport...

Has nothing to do with fans buying on Monday or personalities.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Has nothing to do with fans buying on Monday or personalities.

First point, not any more...

Second point, F1 has a lot more followers now after a successful in-depth tv show that showed this. So...

[WRCStan]

First point, not any more...

Second point, F1 has a lot more followers now after a successful in-depth tv show that showed this. So...

Huh? We're not having a successful conversation here.

The points I make do not even begin to cross over with the points you make.

[denkimi]

My point is you can't have a Rally2 without the manufacturer on board with the project.
Only because we have the stupid homologation rules to make money to the FIA.

Technically there is no reason why anyone would need a manufacturer. Anyone with enough money should be able to hire companies like msport or prodrive to build and run a car for them.

[WRCStan]

Only because we have the stupid homologation rules to make money to the FIA.

Technically there is no reason why anyone would need a manufacturer. Anyone with enough money should be able to hire companies like msport or prodrive to build and run a car for them.

Stupid has worked for the entirety of history and origin of the sport.

Conceptually, series production touring cars are what this sport always was.

Technically, to build a special stage car sports car like a McRae R4, is also conceptually a rally sprint car. Shorter stages, itineraries etc.

[deephouse]

That e- thing in front of car models will die as quick as they do out of nowhere. Brands do realize that and are changing their strategies, of course silently. Peugeot is not interesting in rallying because they don't have boss who is dedicated to that sport. Even Cyril isn't completely into it. He constantly compare F1 and rallying. Rallying need rally people. People who are completely dedicated to it.

[WRCStan]

That e- thing in front of car models will die as quick as they do out of nowhere.

I disagree. Electric has always made sense for town driving since the birth of the car. Most journeys are local and most suited to electric in theory; the school run, commute, the bubble tea delivery, trip to Costa drive thru... There's no going backwards.


Brands do realize that and are changing their strategies, of course silently.

I agree, we will see more uturns from governments and manufacturers because electric is not a universal answer and 'in theory' isn't what's practicable. However, we're not there yet and we must use the information we have for these discussions.

[Jarek Z]

I think that movie Race for glory: Audi vs Lancia will help.

I'm afraid that you are a little too optimistic here. We are 2 months after the world premiere and the movie isn't in cinemas, isn't on Netflix, I don't even know how to watch it. So how can it reach general audience?

[rallyfiend]

Only because we have the stupid homologation rules to make money to the FIA.

Technically there is no reason why anyone would need a manufacturer. Anyone with enough money should be able to hire companies like msport or prodrive to build and run a car for them.

Well, it's not just about the money for FIA.

Rally cars have to drive on public roads. It's a bit different to circuit-only race cars

[deephouse]

I'm waiting for premiere to be released here in Slovenia on 22nd of february in our cinemas. I was surprised that they will play this movie here. In the middle of nowhere. When there is important only football and we are like the worst country in that sport. Jokes aside. I do looking forward to finaly see it. I'm sure it will be released eventualy on one of the streaming platforms. But probably not for now.

[Franky]

Race for Glory is a bad film. That's why it's pretty much nowhere.

It's been interesting following this thread how it has covered very different elements of the sport.

One thing that doesn't help the marketing side is the stale imagery the WRC Promoter produces at the events.

[becher]

Race for Glory is a bad film. That's why it's pretty much nowhere.

It's been interesting following this thread how it has covered very different elements of the sport.

One thing that doesn't help the marketing side is the stale imagery the WRC Promoter produces at the events.

Is it bad as a film or is it bad from a rally enthusiast perspective?

[Franky]

Is it bad as a film or is it bad from a rally enthusiast perspective?

It's bad as a film, sadly. It felt like watching a gentleman driver at a rally driving top spec car, to put it politely.

[manthey]

Race for Glory is a bad film. That's why it's pretty much nowhere.

It's been interesting following this thread how it has covered very different elements of the sport.

One thing that doesn't help the marketing side is the stale imagery the WRC Promoter produces at the events.

have you see a film preview?

[Jarek Z]

Where is it available?

[Oliverk]

Where is it available?

Amazon Prime, already couple of months ago.
https://www.amazon.com/Race-Glory-Audi-vs-Lancia/dp/B0CK67RH7F

[masa90]

The governing body really has to try and pull some miracles to keep the sport from sinking even lower. Atm it is just really two way race ft. M-sport.

The problem (well one of them) is that it seems like everyone seems to be pulling for their own benefit and seems like there is no clear direction. The rally 1 cars are cool, exciting as hell but really the amount of competitors and cars is really alarming and bad look. They pretty much have to do something before the interest winds down completely. I can imagine the amount of coverage the sport would get here in Finland would be pretty minimal if not for the few drivers who are doing well. Or during the Secto Rally week. But really it is not as much out there even in here so it is alarming to be honest. Hope the sport pull through, it is my favourite motorsport after all.

[deephouse]

It's bad as a film, sadly. It felt like watching a gentleman driver at a rally driving top spec car, to put it politely.

At least we have something. Or I'm that kind of person I always see positives in everything. Some people are not. Sadly.

[deephouse]

It's bad as a film, sadly. It felt like watching a gentleman driver at a rally driving top spec car, to put it politely.

Yesterday I watched that movie, Race for glory. It was awesome. And you were wrong. I don't care about not being professionaly enough, the concept, story, drama, insight, cast, setup and effects was truly amazing. I recommend for everyone to see that. People need that. Fans need that. If other sports do have movies, now we have one too. I really enjoy it.

[Kenneth]

Race for Glory is a bad film. That's why it's pretty much nowhere.

It's been interesting following this thread how it has covered very different elements of the sport.

One thing that doesn't help the marketing side is the stale imagery the WRC Promoter produces at the events.

It's nowhere because it's a low budget Italian production, not because it's a bad film.

It's a pretty good film, not Ford vs Ferrari or Rush level, but it's still better than I expected. Unfortunately, it looks to me like it's too much dramatized for rally fans, but also it don't introduce the characters, championship and even rally itself for non-rally fans.

[fiscorpun]

What are the chances of a class like this starting to appear in world/european rallying? (Not the TOP CLASS, of course. Jezz)
https://www.youtube.com/@SXSNordic/videos
I think they suit other type of adventures better, like cross country, "enduroISH" stuff or whatever, where the cars are slower, but I kinda love this type of car. Same for the UTV/LightWeight/SxS classes in Dakar.

[Andre Oliveira]

Already a topic about it and nothing to do with this thread, nothing.

https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?43968-ERS-European-Rally-Series

[Jarek Z]

Yesterday I watched that movie, Race for glory. It was awesome. And you were wrong. I don't care about not being professionaly enough, the concept, story, drama, insight, cast, setup and effects was truly amazing. I recommend for everyone to see that. People need that. Fans need that. If other sports do have movies, now we have one too. I really enjoy it.

Thank you for your opinion. Were there many viewers at the cinema?

[deephouse]

Thank you for your opinion. Were there many viewers at the cinema?

Me, my wife and 4 other people. I guess this is because the tickets here are so expensive and folks do go to the cinema rarely, except for some marvel/dc movies. I didn't care, I enjoy it. My wife, which by the way doesn't care about rallying at all, did say the movie was good. She constantly ask me questions. So at least this is the proof that this is right way to promote whole sport.

[106 sport]

Gran Canaria politician assumes that the WRC will visit the island of Gran Canaria next year:


Aridany Romero, Sports Councilor of the Cabildo Insular de Gran Canaria, was one of the guests of Televisión Canaria during the broadcasting of the TransGranCanaria, an event supported by the island's political institution.

At one point of the interview, he was praising the achievements harvested by sportsmen of the round island as well as the projects that are being worked on for the future, such as trying to bring to Gran Canaria the Vuelta Clclista de España, the Copa del Rey de Basket, the Football World Cup 2030 or the World Rally Championship

The journalist Jesús Alberto Rodríguez, head of sports of Radio Televisión Canaria said in a joking tone that it was necessary to stop asking him about more topics because he might even bring Formula One, to which Romero answered: "Not Formula One, but the WRC is coming next year to Gran Canaria", in reference to the options that the Rally Islas Canarias has of being able to host the World Rally Championship (WRC).

https://automovilismocanario.com/2024/02/24/aridany-romero-el-wrc-viene-el-ano-que-viene-a-gran-canaria/

[Eli]

Gran Canaria politician assumes that the WRC will visit the island of Gran Canaria next year:


Aridany Romero, Sports Councilor of the Cabildo Insular de Gran Canaria, was one of the guests of Televisión Canaria during the broadcasting of the TransGranCanaria, an event supported by the island's political institution.

At one point of the interview, he was praising the achievements harvested by sportsmen of the round island as well as the projects that are being worked on for the future, such as trying to bring to Gran Canaria the Vuelta Clclista de España, the Copa del Rey de Basket, the Football World Cup 2030 or the World Rally Championship

The journalist Jesús Alberto Rodríguez, head of sports of Radio Televisión Canaria said in a joking tone that it was necessary to stop asking him about more topics because he might even bring Formula One, to which Romero answered: "Not Formula One, but the WRC is coming next year to Gran Canaria", in reference to the options that the Rally Islas Canarias has of being able to host the World Rally Championship (WRC).

https://automovilismocanario.com/2024/02/24/aridany-romero-el-wrc-viene-el-ano-que-viene-a-gran-canaria/

So we have them, Ireland, Paraguay & Saudi Arabia vying for a spot next season…say Paraguay will replace Chile, you still have 3 rallies over one slot (unless Poland’s inclusion was for one year only).

[becher]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-chief-wary-of-wrcs-rally2-temptation/?fbclid=IwAR2rc3TkKbMR2jyaEvUEMw5Le3vzQ2rStBErAwKr XIgCGL2WqUhgYlC4n5s


TLDR: Making Rally2 the top class kills the customer base and therefore the class it self.

The man has some sense and explains the problem quite well.

[EstWRC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-chief-wary-of-wrcs-rally2-temptation/?fbclid=IwAR2rc3TkKbMR2jyaEvUEMw5Le3vzQ2rStBErAwKr XIgCGL2WqUhgYlC4n5s


TLDR: Making Rally2 the top class kills the customer base and therefore the class it self.

The man has some sense and explains the problem quite well.

Thank god there is a man with common sense.

And this is what our user Mirek has been also saying here for years

I totally agree.

[fiscorpun]

Hmmm... IMO that was a bad argumentation regarding this topic "Rally1 or Rally2"
He brought the Skoda situation in IRC that is different from nowadays Rally2 market, which is already stabilished and it is a success. He then says that Hyundai itself has a TCR program thats well balanced between Factory and Costumer/Privateers just to say that it would not work in WRC because of the "prestige".... Mate, honestly, BIG WRC FAN HERE, but You are literally talking about "Oh, maybe we will have to step down from our top class in this championship because theres not much brand's interest anymore"... so, let me ask: WHAT PRESTIGE? haha Idk, that one was weak

[WRCStan]

Hmmm... IMO that was a bad argumentation regarding this topic "Rally1 or Rally2"
He brought the Skoda situation in IRC that is different from nowadays Rally2 market, which is already stabilished and it is a success. He then says that Hyundai itself has a TCR program thats well balanced between Factory and Costumer/Privateers just to say that it would not work in WRC because of the "prestige".... Mate, honestly, BIG WRC FAN HERE, but You are literally talking about "Oh, maybe we will have to step down from our top class in this championship because theres not much brand's interest anymore"... so, let me ask: WHAT PRESTIGE? haha Idk, that one was weak

There is a FIA world championship for manufacturers with over 50 years of heritage in WRC versus private touring car racing series for drivers and teams that collapse after a few seasons to be replaced by another iteration, many people probably cannot name the latest without looking it up. For Hyundai there's no title to go for in whatever that is now.

[fiscorpun]

I understand that, but the argument is just BS, especially because they are literally talking about "what to do to be relevant", "how to improve this series". "How to attract brands again". Theres no prestige. Motorsport is weird in this sense. They keep using words and claims like prestige, road relevance, going green to save the planet, herittage... And we KNOW this is all BS.
Idk, just wish for things to improve somehow

[WRCStan]

I understand that, but the argument is just BS, especially because they are literally talking about "what to do to be relevant", "how to improve this series". "How to attract brands again". Theres no prestige. Motorsport is weird in this sense. They keep using words and claims like prestige, road relevance, going green to save the planet, herittage... And we KNOW this is all BS.
Idk, just wish for things to improve somehow

Nogier warned against a customer class as manufacturer's class based on his experience and from his position. It's not official Hyundai narrative and he did not cover any of those points.

[fiscorpun]

Nogier warned against a customer class as manufacturer's class based on his experience and from his position. It's not official Hyundai narrative and he did not cover any of those points.

I think you misunderstood what I said... but whatever. We gotta wait until 28th

[WRCStan]

I think you misunderstood what I said... but whatever. We gotta wait until 28th

Now understood, fair point.

[wyler]

italian media: manufacturers keen to continue with rally1 at least until '27.

http://www.areacorse.com/i-costruttori-spingono-per-le-rally1/

[Eli]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/analysis-what-to-expect-from-the-fia-as-wrc-future-decision-looms/10579993/
They’re discussing the future WRC car ‘till 2032.

[PLuto]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/analysis-what-to-expect-from-the-fia-as-wrc-future-decision-looms/10579993/
They’re discussing the future WRC car ‘till 2032.

I am worried what they will find...

[Eli]

I am worried what they will find...

I always think, "finally a chance to address the issues" and then they throw everything into the bin, light it on fire and make things worse.

[lmmjvss]

Ideal solution for 2025:
Keep Rally1 Hybrid cars. Hyundai and Toyota run three of them, Msport run two.
Total: 8 cars

Now... There are some "old" 22-23-24 Rally1 cars not being used, right? Let Msport remove the hybrid and sell/rent some of those. (2 or 3). Add ballast and let them score points. Let Hyundai use another 2 or 3 of their old cars without the Hybrid for their new costumer program (maybe a Junior program?)
Let Toyota mount a Subaru bubble in 2 of their older cars and find a partner to run the program.
Total: 14 cars

We good?
A man can dream hehe

[Franky]

Yesterday I watched that movie, Race for glory. It was awesome. And you were wrong. I don't care about not being professionaly enough, the concept, story, drama, insight, cast, setup and effects was truly amazing. I recommend for everyone to see that. People need that. Fans need that. If other sports do have movies, now we have one too. I really enjoy it.


It's nowhere because it's a low budget Italian production, not because it's a bad film.

It's a pretty good film, not Ford vs Ferrari or Rush level, but it's still better than I expected. Unfortunately, it looks to me like it's too much dramatized for rally fans, but also it don't introduce the characters, championship and even rally itself for non-rally fans.

As it's off topic to this thread, I'll keep it short.

I'm glad you guys enjoyed the movie but I stick to my opinion.

Low budget doesn't make a film bad. Storytelling is where the biggest difference comes from. And it being nowhere is down to the simple logic of distribution - you distribute content that has potential to earn you profit.

[kirungi okwogera]

As it's off topic to this thread, I'll keep it short.

I'm glad you guys enjoyed the movie but I stick to my opinion.

Low budget doesn't make a film bad. Storytelling is where the biggest difference comes from. And it being nowhere is down to the simple logic of distribution - you distribute content that has potential to earn you profit.

I know it's off topic to the thread but can I just point out that I made a post on this very forum in 2015 suggesting this story for a drama film?


Actually, call me crazy but while the obvious movie subjects could be some of the big personalities - Rohrl, Mikkola, Toivonen etc. - I'd love to see a film that followed Michele Mouton all the way up to her runner-up to Rohrl in 1982... reading the wikipedia about it has built in drama. Even setting aside the amazement of a woman reaching the top level of the sport in the early 80s when that seems out of the question even now in 2015. She won more rallies (3) that year than anyone else. She finds out her father has died on the eve of the Rallye Cote D'Ivoire where she can pull to within 2 points of Rohrl, and her father's dying wish is that she start the rally... Brutal conditions, Rohrl claimed the cars were 70° C (!) during the rally, she led him by half an hour, the lead drops slowly due to transmission problems, finally under pressure she rolls, drives 5km in the wrecked car and finally has to give up. I think that's a movie.
here: https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?35408-Upcoming-short-film-feature-on-rallying&p=1043581#post1043581

Anybody who's seen it - how different is it from what I described? Should I be contacting a lawyer? (that is a joke)

It sounds like it's more about the team bosses, which is, to me, an insane choice, but I suppose helps them ride on Ford v Ferrari and whatever. I wonder if someone who made that film read my post. I want to have that kind of impact in the world.

[fiscorpun]

So..... Rally1 without the hybrids + Rally2 cars with a spec kit with larger restrictor and exhaust to reduce the gap to Rally1 cars....
(Rally1- & Rally2+)
https://www.fia.com/news/technologies-and-strategies-future-set-out-first-world-motor-sport-council-meeting-2024

Oh... are they reading here?
"The service park set-up will follow a new model with manufacturers allocated locally sourced structures as a working space. As well as saving costs and reducing the amount of transportation required, the move provides more flexibility, should the service park location change during an event. It also reduces the total area required for the service park by event organisers.
To allow organisers to adopt less rigid formats, reduce liaison section distances and spread the reach of events, remote service opportunities will be encouraged with teams permitted to carry limited parts in a small support vehicle."

[JRodrigues]

From 2026, revised Rally1 technical regulations for the WRC’s top-level category will be introduced based on the current Rally1 concept. These regulations will run alongside the current Rally1 regulations for the 2026 season. These new rules will use a common safety cell to reduce costs and complexity, and allow manufacturers and tuners to develop cars with their own bodywork based on production models including B-class, C-Class, compact SUV or a Concept Car designed to tight technical criteria such as centre of gravity and aerodynamics in order to equalize performance.

So...... same as previous generation DTM cars??

[TypeR]

About WRC in 2025/2026..


Technical

-The current Rally1 car will continue as the WRC’s flagship vehicle in both 2025 and 2026 but with modifications to reduce cost and performance. These include the removal of the plug-in hybrid unit, with the performance compensated by a reduction in overall weight, and a reduction in the air restrictor and aerodynamics.

*So no more HY system and only ICE in 2025 and 2026?


Rally2 cars will continue in their current form for the duration of their homologation.....
However, Rally2 cars competing on WRC events from 2025 and beyond will have an option to run with a WRC kit consisting of a larger restrictor, a larger exhaust, an optional paddle shift gearbox and a rear wing with the objective of reducing the performance gap between Rally1 and Rally2 cars.

* something like RRC was years ago between WRC and R5?


The power output will be targeted at 330hp, with the engine performance controlled by a reference torque curve for all cars. Engine and transmission will be cost-capped and technology limited to Rally2 equivalence. Aerodynamic efficiency will be limited along with a top speed restriction to reduce development and cost.

*not buffed up rally2, but downgraded rally1 then..?


The cost per car will be capped at €400,000 and WRC manufacturers will be required to make their cars available for sale directly from the finish parc fermé of a WRC event.

* so teams MUST put their cars on sale after every rally and.. there is a possibility they have to make new cars for every rally..?
How does it fit in cost reducing? A lot of new staff to keep making new cars..?
A bit confusing to me at the moment..

400k seems quite optimistic plan, as rally2 cars are 250k+ at the moment.


At the earliest opportunity, an electric category will be introduced into the WRC with the FIA technical department charged with establishing suitable technical regulations that could utilise the new Rally1 safety cell and achieve parity of performance with Rally1 cars running on sustainable fuel.

[WRCStan]

From 2026, revised Rally1 technical regulations for the WRC’s top-level category will be introduced based on the current Rally1 concept. These regulations will run alongside the current Rally1 regulations for the 2026 season. These new rules will use a common safety cell to reduce costs and complexity, and allow manufacturers and tuners to develop cars with their own bodywork based on production models including B-class, C-Class, compact SUV or a Concept Car designed to tight technical criteria such as centre of gravity and aerodynamics in order to equalize performance.

So...... same as previous generation DTM cars??

Sounds the same as Rally1 2022-2024. :confused:

[lmmjvss]

SKODA already posting an "Im Interested" emoji in the DirtFish publication of this article! HOHOHOHO

[Kenneth]

So...... same as previous generation DTM cars??

No, exactly same as current Rally1 cars.

[Kenneth]

It's great news imo. There are still few question marks, but looks like steps to the right direction imo.

[TypeR]

SKODA already posting an "Im Interested" emoji in the DirtFish publication of this article! HOHOHOHO

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GHcL_-0W4AAlqoW?format=jpg&name=small

[Eli]

Sounds the same as Rally1 2022-2024. :confused:

well now it's an official stamp for all parties for not having to use their superminis/suv based one's as the basis for the car and we might see the C-segment back in action, and unlike now, no plug-in hybrid systems since next year so no stupid HY on the door sides, back to normal numbers, yayy, but on a more serious note, I'm glad someone there finally saw the light (or at least some of it) and realized no-one cared or maybe even realized these cars have a battery pack stuck to them and decided to take them off. As for power, it seems we've gone back to the initial DS3 & Fiesta days.

[fiscorpun]

Im happy with the decision, honestly. I dont think we will atract manufacturers, but I can see some richier teams joining the Rally2+ thing that will be more or less on the same level as the rally1-. On FB there were people saying "Oliver Solberg" opted to race in WRC2 because they more or less already knew about these changes, so they opted to not waste money on Rally1 cars since it would be ditched. Some said Kalle's decision was also influenced by this dismiss of Rally1 cars.
Not sure we can truste all infos we read on facebook, but IT KIIIINDA makes sense. I dont think the shareholders didnt knew about this until today. The Rally2+ conversation has been around since last year, it didnt came out of nothing, they were talking about that already behind some close doors, for suuure.... But anyway. Im happy!

[trykmann]

2025 can be quite interesting. I wonder about the gap between the two categories. What if the Rally2+ cars are going to be faster and winning events?

[Tauri_J]

2025 can be quite interesting. I wonder about the gap between the two categories. What if the Rally2+ cars are going to be faster and winning events?

How? Literally zero chance of this happening

[WRCStan]

About WRC in 2025/2026..

* so teams MUST put their cars on sale after every rally and.. there is a possibility they have to make new cars for every rally..?
How does it fit in cost reducing? A lot of new staff to keep making new cars..?
A bit confusing to me at the moment..

I read this like current Rally1 cars aren't actually for sale, they can only be entered by the manufacturers whereas Rally1- will be made available to privateers/teams to take away and run as they please.

[becher]

Sounds the same as Rally1 2022-2024. :confused:

I hope that is the case, but the wording sounds more like a spec chassis to me.

[fiscorpun]

I read this like current Rally1 cars aren't actually for sale, they can only be entered by the manufacturers whereas Rally1- will be made available to privateers/teams to take away and run as they please.

I read that as something like "Hey, Msport always try to sell cars, but now Toyota and Hyundai gotta sell them too if someone is interested in their Rally1-"

[deephouse]

How? Literally zero chance of this happening

F2 kitcars do it in the past. Solberg wiped out many of them during last event. You will point out the word IF, but the speed in rallying is measured by finishing event with least time and not top speed which car could run or average or whatever.

[macebig]

Think the whole point is to equalize Rally 1 and Rally 2 cars in a similar fashion to what ACO and IMSA do with LeMans Hypercars (LMH) and LeMans Daytona hybrid (LMDh).

[WRCStan]

I read that as something like "Hey, Msport always try to sell cars, but now Toyota and Hyundai gotta sell them too if someone is interested in their Rally1-"

The car Serderidis 'bought', according to eWRC, got used again and again by other M-Sport drivers and when he drove on non-WRC events was run by M-Sport who turn up with the car and take it back again. I believe that's part of the Rally1 philosophy/rules which are being changed.

[lmmjvss]

Think the whole point is to equalize Rally 1 and Rally 2 cars in a similar fashion to what ACO and IMSA do with LeMans Hypercars (LMH) and LeMans Daytona hybrid (LMDh).

And then make lmp2/rally2 only for national/regional?

[erikli2]

The cost of a Rally2+ car with paddle shift etc. wont be far off the 400k cap for Rally1 I imagine, might risk reducing the number of local drivers in Rally2. But it´s awesome that they´ve dared to take these quite radical decisions, going to be really exciting to follow!

[Andre Oliveira]

What? The car that Serderidis bought only raced with him and Munster (cause he supported him).

[HKSjbg]

I’m confused as to what category this Rally2+ will be eligible for. When I first read it I thought it was with the aim Rally2+ and Rally1- being of equal (ish) performance. But re-reading it, is it still meant to be for WRC2? If so, does the standard Rally2 class become the WRC3 category?

[seb_sh]

I’m confused as to what category this Rally2+ will be eligible for. When I first read it I thought it was with the aim Rally2+ and Rally1- being of equal (ish) performance. But re-reading it, is it still meant to be for WRC2? If so, does the standard Rally2 class become the WRC3 category?

I believe Rally2 stays as is and is run in WRC2. Then Rally1 is slowed down and Rally2 with WRC kit is faster and intended to be close to Rally1 performance and it will be competing for overall with Rally1.

[focus206]

I’m confused as to what category this Rally2+ will be eligible for. When I first read it I thought it was with the aim Rally2+ and Rally1- being of equal (ish) performance. But re-reading it, is it still meant to be for WRC2? If so, does the standard Rally2 class become the WRC3 category?

That's what I'm wondering as well... if they stay within WRC2 then it's quite unfair for the regular Rally2 cars as they'll have very little chance. On the other hand, how many chances would these Rally2+ have against Rally1?
The best outcome would be that Rally2+ do have some chances, otherwise I don't know who would choose to run them if they're clearly slower than Rally1 and clearly faster than Rally2. Maybe for their own Rally2+ championship? God, I hope not.

[focus206]

I believe Rally2 stays as is and is run in WRC2. Then Rally1 is slowed down and Rally2 with WRC kit is faster and intended to be close to Rally1 performance and it will be competing for overall with Rally1.

Hopefully it's as you say and there won't be a huge difference between Rally1 and Rally2+

[Duvel]

I think this could be a good step in the right way!
Lets hope the Rally1- and the Rally2plus are close enough to each other in performance!
But thats gonna be the tricky part i think.

Giving tuners the option to build cars from existing models is a great idea!

So current rally 1 manufactors can keep the developed cars kind of (downgraded, but basecar stays the same). While Bigger or better funded teams can build over to the WRC2 plus class.. Good solution!

the 2024 season started nice. But now looking forward to the build up for the 2025 season also already..Who's gonna do what wich cars wil be plus version,..


The freedom off organisers on event style's is also good.

[mmm]

Hopefully it's as you say and there won't be a huge difference between Rally1 and Rally2+

This has to be the case, otherwise they would have just removed the hybrid and called it a day. The only reason for the smaller restrictor is to bring the power closer to Rally2+.

[fiscorpun]

Crazy to think that (FIA?) F1 is removing part of the hybrid for 26, removing the hybrid in WRC, allowing ICE cars to come back to Rallycross, they have space for non-hybrid cars in WEC, they cancelled eTCR, they are going for Hydrogen in Extreme-E. There is talk about BTCC planing to remove their hybrid, Indycar keeps postponing thw Hybrid engines (which will be expensive and be removed after two years of teams reducing their operations). Its almost like every motorsport fan was correct all the time and they choosed to just make everybody lose money with these "Gotta go Greener" stuff. Next step are probably SUVs haha Too big, too heavy. Its just UGLY. In Brasil and Argentina, their stock car series are.shifting to that. V8SC and Nascar are next. Even those american off road racing in short tracks with 900hp V8 Trucks are talking about SUVs. Nitro Rallycross and ExtremeE race SUVs. Not huge success if we are being honest, and I LIKE these series.
Idk, just thought about this. Its like "oh, fans are winning? They are removing hybrids and evs from racing?" Haha cheers to that.
(fia electric GTs will not last two season, just like eTCR)

[WRCStan]

2025 Rally1 removes the weight of hybrid, but the smaller restrictor has to compensate to keep the same kg/hp. Safe to assume no new manufacturers are developing one just for two years.

2026 Rally1-, will be 50hp lower. But Toyota can run the 2025 Rally1 alongside the Rally1- in 2026, so who's going to be tempted to build a Rally1- for one year?

For me Hyundai are exiting else there is not this panic. Congratulations Toyota for the 2025 and 2026 championships! New cars or not don't change that, but I don't think there are great times to be had in these two years.

[Kenneth]

I personally kinda like the Rally2+. Sure, it will probably make WRC2 a bit less competitive and less attractive for some drivers. But #1, if a driver wants to compete for the championship, he need to have enough funds anyway, and #2 WRC2 is supposed to be a feeder series, instead it's 2nd league from which is almost impossible to get into WRC. Rally2+ can for sure help with that step.

Yeah but I'm really curious what's the plan for Rally2+ in 2026 and forward.

[EstWRC]

2025 Rally1 removes the weight of hybrid, but the smaller restrictor has to compensate to keep the same kg/hp. Safe to assume no new manufacturers are developing one just for two years.

2026 Rally1-, will be 50hp lower. But Toyota can run the 2025 Rally1 alongside the Rally1- in 2026, so who's going to be tempted to build a Rally1- for one year?

For me Hyundai are exiting else there is not this panic. Congratulations Toyota for the 2025 and 2026 championships! New cars or not don't change that, but I don't think there are great times to be had in these two years.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-planning-new-car-for-wrc-2025/

[Eli]

‘Engine and transmission will be cost-capped and technology limited to Rally2 equivalence’

Does this mean they won’t have the global racing engine?

[Negaiss]

I don not understand clearly - too complicated. Only thing I like is, that Manufacturers can not say no, if someone wants to by their car. That means - a lot more private entries in Rally 1 than now.

[PLuto]

I don not understand clearly - too complicated. Only thing I like is, that Manufacturers can not say no, if someone wants to by their car. That means - a lot more private entries in Rally 1 than now.

I dont think so. Rally1 cars are very expensive for buying and running...

[Rallyper]

I dont think so. Rally1 cars are very expensive for buying and running...

But rich people always find ways to spend money. If you have pockets full and interested in cars, just stick around on Sunday afternoon and make your bid.
Coming home with the winning car to your own museum is not bad for those who are loaded.

[PLuto]

But rich people always find ways to spend money. If you have pockets full and interested in cars, just stick around on Sunday afternoon and make your bid.
Coming home with the winning car to your own museum is not bad for those who are loaded.

But he is talking about more private entries, not abous private museums...

[Kenneth]

I can imagine that it will draw more teams like Prodrive, Oreca, Iron Lynx, etc. when now non-manu teams can build their own cars. Also it will open doors for Solberg's project even without Subaru's green light.

Idk if it will bring more privateers (probably it will as there is usually 0 privateers rn), but it will for sure bring more crews overall.

[WRCStan]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-planning-new-car-for-wrc-2025/

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/eb/eb/6debeb321abb01eb56340f7765abd201.jpg

[typhoon]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/eb/eb/6debeb321abb01eb56340f7765abd201.jpg

Hopefully for Hyundai there's not another Dieselgate. Situation is quite different tbh for such a comparison...

[WRCStan]

Hopefully for Hyundai there's not another Dieselgate. Situation is quite different tbh for such a comparison...

It's a great comparison when Hyundai N are going fully electric.

But Dieselgate Schmieselgate, they were done with annihilating everybody in WRC.

[seb_sh]

Here's a comparison between former and existing cars and what seems to be coming just to put things into perspective. The numbers are what I could find so if somone knows better I'm happy to be corrected.

WRC 2011-2016
1360 kg with driver and co-driver
global race engine (1.6T I4) with 33mm restrictor ~ 310hp
limited aero

WRC 2017-2021
1360 kg with driver and co-driver
same engine but with 36mm restrictor ~ 380hp
lots of aero

Rally1 2022-2024
1430 kg with driver and co-driver (hybrid system is 84kg)
same engine as before but with hybrid boost ~ 380hp + 136hp = 516hp when boosting
less aero than previous gen but still relatively complex

new Rally1 2026
weight unknown
engine unknown but with fixed torque curve and max power 330hp (basically everyone will have the same performance)
common safety cell, aero and center of gravity tightly controlled and capped, top speed capped (sounds like some form of BOP)
design and car shape more open than previous gen
Rally2 based transmission
400k cost cap

Some speculation about 2025:
Since they say that in 2026 the current Rally1s will still be allowed and their weight, aero and power will be reduced I assume that means they will adjust these cars to 330hp like the 2026 spec and equalise the weight or something close to that.

About the Rally2 kits:
Current Rally2
1390kg with driver and co-driver
engine with 32mm restrictor ~ 290 hp
limited aero

Rally2 WRC Kit 2025
engine with bigger restrictor
larger exhuast, optional paddle shift gearbox
rear wing

They say they want to bring them closer to Rally1 performance so assuming the target is 330hp is it possible to get there with just the larger restrictor and exhuast? On the aero side it depends how much they limit the Rally1 aero, not sure just a rear wing will be enough. Also these cars might need to lose weight which I'm not sure is possible. This WRC kit only really sense if they can get them really close to the new Rally1. I've seen people compare it to the 2011 era RRC however there is a key difference: that car was a more expensive car downgraded while here they are uplifting the performance of a cheaper car. It might work if they can achieve the performance level.

So for 2025 manufacturers need to downgrade their cars by removing the hybrid, lowering power and simplifying the aero and they can keep using them for 2026. That's quite some work on the aero side and retesting the engine but you can then use the car for 2 years at least. New manufacturers or tuners could come in 2026 using the new Rally1 rule.

In the end we have to see the full rules written down but I think the key change is the performance cap. That was in fact what attracted a lot of teams to WEC, according to interviews with manufacturer representatives that i've read. They had a sort of guarantee that if they can reach the performance target they will be competitive without getting involved in an expensive development war. Indeed for this season some of the teams have changed nothing on their cars. The biggest changes will be made by teams that are having issues with performance or reliability. Robert Reid was at the Spa WEC race last year and is now at the Qatar race so maybe they're getting inspiration from there.

[Myrvold]

I can imagine that it will draw more teams like Prodrive, Oreca, Iron Lynx, etc. when now non-manu teams can build their own cars. Also it will open doors for Solberg's project even without Subaru's green light.

Idk if it will bring more privateers (probably it will as there is usually 0 privateers rn), but it will for sure bring more crews overall.

At the same time. Prodrive, Oreca, Iron Lynx and so on, would be privateers if they don't have manufacturer support.

[TypeR]

It is mentioned that rally2 wrc kit includes optional paddle shift.. Does it mean rally1 cars change back to paddle shift from 2025?

[seb_sh]

It is mentioned that rally2 wrc kit includes optional paddle shift.. Does it mean rally1 cars change back to paddle shift from 2025?

In my opinion it is not clear from what was written in the plan and we will have to wait for the final regs in June.

Another thought about Rally2 WRC kit, perhaps the objective is not to achieve parity with the Rally1s but instead offer a cheaper way for drivers to get experience with a similar power to weight and aero before going to Rally1s. This might be them recognizing and trying to fix the issue with lack of options to get experience at top level for new drivers.

[TWRC]

Here's a comparison between former and existing cars and what seems to be coming just to put things into perspective. The numbers are what I could find so if somone knows better I'm happy to be corrected.

...
About the Rally2 kits:
Current Rally2
1390kg with driver and co-driver
engine with 32mm restrictor ~ 290 hp
limited aero

...

Rally2 is over 300, even the first generation R5s are aroung 310 if my infos are correct.

[becher]

Rally2 is over 300, even the first generation R5s are aroung 310 if my infos are correct.

Yep, I read on this forum numbers between 310 and slightly below 330hp. But if the 330hp is the official statement power we can be sure that they will be more powerful than standard Rally2.

[Mirek]

Yep, I read on this forum numbers between 310 and slightly below 330hp. But if the 330hp is the official statement power we can be sure that they will be more powerful than standard Rally2.

The power figures have always been officially far lower than in reality. It's been decades since since someone officially published anything close to reality :)

Even the very first R5 car (Fiesta) had roughly 300 Hp and that is ten years ago.


IMHO It will be difficult to level the Rally1 and Rally2+ cars but I expect the Rally2+ to be used mainly by gentleman drivers and not by many serious competitors.


Anyway about the new rules. Finally private tuners can build a WRC car. That is a breakthrough equal to a revolution in the sport. I am very happy about it.

[TypeR]

officially they are between 206-215kw..

Fabia rally2 - 214kw (289hp)
Fiesta rally2 - 290hp
C3 rally2 - 206kw (282hp)
i20 rally2 - 212kw
Yaris rally2 - should be 211kw

[Mirek]

officially they are between 206-215kw..

Fabia rally2 - 214kw (289hp)
Fiesta rally2 - 290hp
C3 rally2 - 206kw (282hp)
i20 rally2 - 212kw
Yaris rally2 - should be 211kw

Forget about these numbers, they have nothing to do with reality. It's a lot more.

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/explained-the-changes-to-rally1-proposed-for-2026/

[becher]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/explained-the-changes-to-rally1-proposed-for-2026/

So according to this, they would indeed change to a spec chassis. Terrible.

[WRCStan]

So a manufacturer developing a new car for 2025 will need to do another for 2027?

[rallyfiend]

This is all looking more and more like another FIA-shaped fiasco of complication.....

[WRCStan]

This is all looking more and more like another FIA-shaped fiasco of complication.....

Why do you say fiasco?

Does anybody else see that all the evidence points to there being no manufacturers lined up?

It's an FIA chassis, an FIA safety cell, the FIA developing hydrogen, the FIA developing driver talent, the FIA sourcing transmissions, opening the main class up to tuners, gone are the service park structures - because nobody's got one anymore...

WRC main class as a manufacturer sport is in its dying days.

[rallyfiend]

Why do you say fiasco?

Does anybody else see that all the evidence points to there being no manufacturers lined up?

It's an FIA chassis, an FIA safety cell, the FIA developing hydrogen, the FIA developing driver talent, the FIA sourcing transmissions, opening the main class up to tuners, gone are the service park structures - because nobody's got one anymore...

WRC main class as a manufacturer sport is in its dying days.

Well, it all sounds like rushed talk as a response to often repeated tropes. This FIA administration seems famous for wanting to seem like the key authority, rather than actually being that authority. Just look at Mohammed and his F1 situation. He's been humiliated a few times.

I mean, this Working Group was only set up in mid-December. How considered do you think all of this could honestly be?

[EstWRC]

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/wrc-teams-react-to-fias-vision-for-the-future/10582128/

[WRCStan]

I mean, this Working Group was only set up in mid-December. How considered do you think all of this could honestly be?

I think the working group only gained the power to act at the end of last year. Like you say, politics etc, and scrapping hybrid is a part of that and to address an immediate concern. They probably were thinking things through for a while before, combined with any new information since. Long term, nothing is bringing in manufacturers. I don't know what else they can or should do that isn't totally radical.

[skarderud]

Open up for non-manufacturers to build and run a Rally1 car is the only solution to get new teams in.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[rallyfiend]

I think the working group only gained the power to act at the end of last year. Like you say, politics etc, and scrapping hybrid is a part of that and to address an immediate concern. They probably were thinking things through for a while before, combined with any new information since. Long term, nothing is bringing in manufacturers. I don't know what else they can or should do that isn't totally radical.

Lets see if it costs current teams.....

[macebig]

Million dollar rallycars were going nowhere, very fast. Something needed to be done, quickly. Personally, making Rally 2 the top category with no spec changes would have been fine. I understand why FIA felt the need to protect some of the Rally 1 investment and keep a semblance of happiness with the 3 current teams. The compromise we got is fine for now. Further evidence is needed before drawing full conclusions.

[WRCStan]

Million dollar rallycars were going nowhere, very fast. Something needed to be done, quickly. Personally, making Rally 2 the top category with no spec changes would have been fine. I understand why FIA felt the need to protect some of the Rally 1 investment and keep a semblance of happiness with the 3 current teams.

For 2027, the 3 manufacturers would need new bigger chasses, new engines albeit they've got one, new gearboxes... but still new cars. There's no connect.

There's a reason FIA didn't choose Rally2 or the +WRC Kit for top category, even if it may turn out to be just that.

[Kenneth]

Million dollar rallycars were going nowhere, very fast. Something needed to be done, quickly. Personally, making Rally 2 the top category with no spec changes would have been fine. I understand why FIA felt the need to protect some of the Rally 1 investment and keep a semblance of happiness with the 3 current teams. The compromise we got is fine for now. Further evidence is needed before drawing full conclusions.

Making Rally2 the top category with no changes would probably kill the regional customer Rally2 racing - the most vital part of rallying right now.

[doubled1978]

Making Rally2 the top category with no changes would probably kill the regional customer Rally2 racing - the most vital part of rallying right now.

Why do you think that it would kill regional customer Rally2? Genuinely interested to know.

[JAM]

Why do you think that it would kill regional customer Rally2? Genuinely interested to know.

One thing is a manufacturer developing a car to costumers, looking at the costs because they have to sell it; the other completely differente is to developing a car ti ne a WRC winner, they cost limit to investe is much larger.

You could talk about cost limit ceiling, it works to buy a car, but not to buy parts or services.

[Mirek]

One thing is a manufacturer developing a car to costumers, looking at the costs because they have to sell it; the other completely differente is to developing a car ti ne a WRC winner, they cost limit to investe is much larger.

You could talk about cost limit ceiling, it works to buy a car, but not to buy parts or services.

I'd add that even the speed of the works development is unsustainable for the customers. The privateers need stability and for them fewer uppgrades coming through the season is better.

Also the upgrades are not just to buy something and install it. Most of the upgrades also require testing, building of new setups etc. It's not just a cost of the new part but a lot more.

[becher]

I've just reread the proposed changes and must say I'm confused by the top speed reduction plan to limit costs.

Aren't all top category (or second tier) cars in recent history primarily top speed limited by very short gearing? In what way other than mandating shorter ratios or a electronic limiter could they reduce the top speed and how would that save costs?

[Rallyest]

I've just reread the proposed changes and must say I'm confused by the top speed reduction plan to limit costs.

Aren't all top category (or second tier) cars in recent history primarily top speed limited by very short gearing? In what way other than mandating shorter ratios or a electronic limiter could they reduce the top speed and how would that save costs?

Only logical reason behind that i see reducing costs is maybe that engines are less on the limit and therefore there is less wear maybe?

[Eli]

I was wondering, from 2026 the cars will use the same engine (albeit with a larger restrictor) as the rally2 cars?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The more I read and think about all these new proposals the more it seems like a complete dog's breakfast. The new points system was confusing, but the rules for the cars and classes for the the next few years actually make it look simple and logical !

I predict a total mess and a chaotic WRC until someone has the balls to decide on a proper set of straight-forward regulations and cars that actually make sense for both fans and manufacturers.

[JAM]

I'd add that even the speed of the works development is unsustainable for the customers. The privateers need stability and for them fewer uppgrades coming through the season is better.

Also the upgrades are not just to buy something and install it. Most of the upgrades also require testing, building of new setups etc. It's not just a cost of the new part but a lot more.

And you can add human resources too. How many people could be necessary to run full trothle a car that is developed to a works team? 3 mechanics anda a engineer are enough? I doubt.

[becher]

Only logical reason behind that i see reducing costs is maybe that engines are less on the limit and therefore there is less wear maybe?

You mean in the sense that cars won't be buzzing the limiter on long straights but rather trundle along at lower revs in top gear thanks to a limiter?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota's J-M Latvala on problems with the Rally1 cars... mainly cost and the gap to the Rally2s...

https://www.pistonheads.com/news/motorsport/jari-matti-latvala-rally1-cars-too-complicated/48266

[saco0o]

autosport/motorsport.com podcast gravel notes on the new rules. interview with david richards.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1LOuS4LbKFUdzUIqOyUh7L?si=P88kp3izSHSiejfrPDZoLw%0 A

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Fan survey results:

https://www.rallyfish.co.uk/news/wrc-fan-engagement-survey-revealed?fbclid=IwAR0nQA4iwCY-8z_t_Npxkul2884LyCREO46JCuuIMsmV_Gi3LincnGpVpEY

[Eli]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/toyota-boss-latvala-feels-parts-of-future-wrc-vision-too-aggressive/10584887/

Latvala thinks €400,000 is a bit optimistic, something like €500,000 is more realistic in his opinion. So basically back to the DS3 & Fiesta RS costs back in 2011.

[Mirek]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/toyota-boss-latvala-feels-parts-of-future-wrc-vision-too-aggressive/10584887/

Latvala thinks €400,000 is a bit optimistic, something like €500,000 is more realistic in his opinion. So basically back to the DS3 & Fiesta RS costs back in 2011.

500 thousand Euro today equals only 375 thousand from 2011. There is an inflation.

[Eli]

500 thousand Euro today equals only 375 thousand from 2011. There is an inflation.

So that makes it even harder to achieve.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

More from Latvala, this time on the Rally2 WRC Kit...


"For the private teams, it could be a great idea. But, for the manufacturer who wants to build the car to win the World Rally Championship, do they want to see the car run out of the garage beating your product in which you’ve invested a lot of money? It raises questions,”

“I know we are struggling with not so many cars in the main class and giving the opportunity to fine-tune the Rally2 car… I can see the positive – we have more cars, potentially, in the main class. But slowing down the Rally1 and boosting the Rally2? We need to find the balance.”

https://rallyjournal.com/jari-matti-latvala-raises-a-major-question/

[drive]

and more from Pernilla Solberg

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/the-other-solberg-making-waves-behind-the-scenes-in-the-wrc/10586980/

[becher]

Neuvilles suggestions:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/neuvilles-alternative-masterplan-to-fix-the-wrc/?fbclid=IwAR0XdZnJruyiz3TdEiTNRpYKc_tN0l8ySvVCtMeT Lz_cq6CG4BtXUh_L7fI

[WRCStan]

Neuville doesn't see the point in Rally2+ whereas Lindholm thinks every current Rally2 driver will upgrade if the price difference is nominal:

https://rallyjournal.com/finnish-rally-hope-comments-on-the-future-plans-of-the-wrc-it-will-fade-away/

Averaging those responses there'll be no new manufacturers and costs increasing for who's left.

[WRCStan]

Respect to Neuville for sharing his opinion. Clearly he cares, thinks about these things and is a fan too.

[TypeR]

Respect to Neuville for sharing his opinion. Clearly he cares, thinks about these things and is a fan too.
Yeesss.. and according to IG posts, he has changed his Panamera Turbo to BMW iX EV :D

[WRCStan]

Yeesss.. and according to IG posts, he has changed his Panamera Turbo to BMW iX EV :D

I have to Google BMW models; that is one fugly awful looking car.

[saco0o]

'the look of the new cars'. cant see much change here tbh
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4vMqX2NcpO/?igsh=M2U1bTAyaGgyOGc5

[Eli]

'the look of the new cars'. cant see much change here tbh
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4vMqX2NcpO/?igsh=M2U1bTAyaGgyOGc5

The Rally1 looks very much like the new Lancia Ypsilon…just saying.

[saco0o]

The Rally1 looks very much like the new Lancia Ypsilon…just saying.

well. if you like Rally4. maybe?
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/lancia-offers-hint-at-future-rally-return/10589178/

[EstWRC]

Kalle doesn’t understand

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/rovanpera-wrc-technical-overhaul-2025-makes-no-sense/10592424/

[saco0o]

formula e foruns talking more and more about a hyundai rumor. wec hyperclass also being talked around. could we lose factory team in wrc? they have this new costumer program so i think we could still see hyundais doing rally (r1-, r2+ & r2)

[WRCStan]

“Getting rid of these cars is a really bad idea! They’re the best things we’ve ever had,”

Guess who said it.

https://rallyjournal.com/wrc-team-boss-delivers-harsh-verdict-its-a-really-bad-idea/

[macebig]

These cars were going nowhere,fast. Getting rid of them was crucial for the survival of the championship. Group Bs were amazing cars, too. But, having fatal or life threatening accidents at every rally was simply not an option. Sometimes, the hard way is the only way.

[EstWRC]

Is it only me that this doesn’t sound confident at all?

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-instability-leaves-hyundais-future-hanging-in-the-balance/

And the interview Cyril gave to Autohebdo this weekend sounded even more unsure

[GigiGalliNo1]

Unless Korea gets a WRC round... yet Hankook are the major tyre company soon... I would say Hyundai out at the end of this season or...

[Eli]

Unless Korea gets a WRC round... yet Hankook are the major tyre company soon... I would say Hyundai out at the end of this season or...

Hopefully this will be like 2021 when we thought they’d leave although some 3 years have passed and no championship wins…not looking good.

[saco0o]

“Getting rid of these cars is a really bad idea! They’re the best things we’ve ever had,”

Guess who said it.

https://rallyjournal.com/wrc-team-boss-delivers-harsh-verdict-its-a-really-bad-idea/

so they want a better rule set to be able to sell cars for the top class otherwide they are dead - which implies hybrids are too expensive for costumers - but they dont think the top class should get rid of hybrids cuz they are so fast. i honestly cant understand anything anymore at this point. some last week news also said hyundai was onboard with ditching the hybrids - they even started a new costumer program, which i honestly thought it was related to the new decision - just to say "well we actually dont know now". nothing makes sense anymore, no one knows what they want and no one knows what to do. this is so bad.

[masa90]

so they want a better rule set to be able to sell cars for the top class otherwide they are dead - which implies hybrids are too expensive for costumers - but they dont think the top class should get rid of hybrids cuz they are so fast. i honestly cant understand anything anymore at this point. some last week news also said hyundai was onboard with ditching the hybrids - they even started a new costumer program, which i honestly thought it was related to the new decision - just to say "well we actually dont know now". nothing makes sense anymore, no one knows what they want and no one knows what to do. this is so bad.


Yup. It seems to me to be either negotiation tactic, "excuse" to pullout or then the parent company has changed strategy and they know they will not get the budget or something if the hybrids go.

It is all big part of politics game.

[EstWRC]

Tänak doesnt hold his opinion back https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/tanak-wrc-not-under-control/

Tänak also raised a specific concern about the potential regulation change for the sport’s top two tiers, adding: “We are reducing a lot of power in Rally1 cars where the chassis and the roll cage is made for protection. And then we are putting a lot more power in a Rally2 car where you don’t have this kind of safety and things.

“I’m really surprised that these guys are happy to take this responsibility for these decisions.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

People already drive "Open Class" R5/Rally2 cars with more power (bigger restrictor) but the existing aero.

And of course they drive powerful Historic cars with quite poor safety.

It's up to drivers if they want to take the risk.

[WRCStan]

It's up to drivers if they want to take the risk.

Not only. If you regulate it or provide it you also share responsibility.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Not only. If you regulate it or provide it you also share responsibility.

All the rally events and Series that have long allowed the Open Class R5 and Historics have had no problem.

[WRCStan]

All the rally events and Series that have long allowed the Open Class R5 and Historics have had no problem.

Cool, but as a general rule you can't say that and walk away.

[skarderud]

Tänak doesnt hold his opinion back https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/tanak-wrc-not-under-control/

Tänak also raised a specific concern about the potential regulation change for the sport’s top two tiers, adding: “We are reducing a lot of power in Rally1 cars where the chassis and the roll cage is made for protection. And then we are putting a lot more power in a Rally2 car where you don’t have this kind of safety and things.

“I’m really surprised that these guys are happy to take this responsibility for these decisions.So he is arguing that the chassis is made for more power than Rally1-2025 will have, so its no point to reduce power?
Has to be something more here, this level of stupid is not mr. Tänak.

We need more teams and more competition, i think what this working-group planning is a step in right direction, what two drivers means is just not interesting.
They have only short-sighted wiew on this, the working-group has to think 10 years in front.

If the manufacturers is not interested any more, its sad, but then FIA/promoter has to do necessary changes to keep the WRC still running.
If its official manufacturers, official semi-profesionell or importers/private teams that will be the next step, noone knows at this point. I hopes it is a combination of these 3.

FIA ruined the WorldRX, actually that championship was at its best as semi-amateur european championship sportswise:)

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[EstWRC]

Next time read the whole article before replying

Seems you didn’t

[Fast Eddie WRC]

TBH Tanak is probably just towing the Manufacturer line in that they dont want the new Rally2+ and cars that could challenge their (lower-powered) Rally1 cars. The 'safety argument' is just a way to help stop them.

[saco0o]

i thought the safety argument was good. if the rally2+ cars are getting more power, they need a better rollcage/safety stuff. ott is not wrong, fia said nothing about improving safety for these rally2+ cars, which will also increase costs. i found that point interesting. havent thought about that.

[becher]

Let's be honest here, with slightly more power and maybe a bit more aerodynamic load, how much faster could an accident really be compared to a normal Rally2? I don't think that the resulting forces at play would be so much bigger than before that those cars suddenly become unsafe.

[typhoon]

It's possibly something that Ott has been told to say from the Manufacturer.

On the other side, it's all discussions and potential "safety issues" when we don't even have the full regulations and how the new kits will be.

It's clearly a "political battle" right now.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Let's be honest here, with slightly more power and maybe a bit more aerodynamic load, how much faster could an accident really be compared to a normal Rally2? I don't think that the resulting forces at play would be so much bigger than before that those cars suddenly become unsafe.

Exactly.

And also being honest the one WRC fatality in recent times was in a Rally1 car.

No rally car is ever 100% safe.

[becher]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/lancia-confirms-it-is-working-on-a-return-to-rallying/?fbclid=IwAR0g5aRMkfPZNiHVjfzpEeLZEDB-elE1y4Xmy-ui4KKXGBuzw0TSKtmudJg


So a Lancia return is at least possible, but could be either Rally2, Rally1 or whatever replaces that I guess.

[Andre Oliveira]

Rally4 too

[NaBUru38]

Stellantis could make its own championship with Peugeot, Citroen, Abarth, Lancia, Opel and Jeep if they wished.

[saco0o]

so we will have (both stellantis) "not that updated" citroens while new lancias are released same way we have (both vw group) "not that upgraded" polos while theres new skodas every year? i dont mind that, it makes even more room for even cheaper r5 cars (the 'old' and 'not that upgraded' polos)

[Eli]

I think by the time they enter, Hyundai will be out, so we'll stay with the same amount of manufacturers.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I think by the time they enter, Hyundai will be out, so we'll stay with the same amount of manufacturers.

And the FIA’s 2025 WRC rules timeline is too tight for Hyundai to do a “good job” according to Cyril Abiteboul.

[Zoli]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/the-wec-lesson-that-wrc-could-observe-to-fix-its-current-challenges/10594369/


"Rights or wrongs of BoP aside, the WEC is proof that focusing on the long-term future regulations, rather than making tweaks to the current rules, can lead to achieving the desired goals of attracting manufacturers and increasing fan interest. Changing formats to help boost the WRC's appeal while also seeking to bolster the variety at the front is a necessary step. But in trying to fix everything at once, the WRC could damage relationships with those that are currently invested when its main focus should be on getting 2027's technical regulations right."

[seb_sh]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyota-tests-2025-spec-wrc-prototypes-in-croatia/

Toyota already have prototypes running, meanwhile Hyundai are allegedly building a new car for next year anyway, can't they also adapt the already work in progress project?

[TypeR]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyota-tests-2025-spec-wrc-prototypes-in-croatia/

Toyota already have prototypes running, meanwhile Hyundai are allegedly building a new car for next year anyway, can't they also adapt the already work in progress project?
No, they are busy complaining about leaving the series; too little time for 25' spec and building a whole new car for 2025 at the same time.. :D

While Toyota is already testing possible options..

[WRCStan]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyota-tests-2025-spec-wrc-prototypes-in-croatia/

Toyota already have prototypes running, meanwhile Hyundai are allegedly building a new car for next year anyway, can't they also adapt the already work in progress project?

I don't think they ever said they were building a brand new car, just tweaking the current one.

"the former Renault Formula 1 boss has now shared his frustrations over the proposals, which have already forced the team to scrap its investment into planned 2025 developments for its i20N Rally1 car. Abiteboul says the updates have been rendered redundant by the technical changes put forward for next year."

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/fias-2025-wrc-rules-timeline-too-tight-for-hyundai-to-do-a-good-job-10594403/10594403/

[seb_sh]

I don't think they ever said they were building a brand new car, just tweaking the current one.

"the former Renault Formula 1 boss has now shared his frustrations over the proposals, which have already forced the team to scrap its investment into planned 2025 developments for its i20N Rally1 car. Abiteboul says the updates have been rendered redundant by the technical changes put forward for next year."

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/fias-2025-wrc-rules-timeline-too-tight-for-hyundai-to-do-a-good-job-10594403/10594403/

Was probably thinking of this: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-planning-new-car-for-wrc-2025/#:~:text=Hyundai%20Motorsport%20is%20planning%20th e,for%20the%20current%20Rally1%20machine.

He says "strong development" and "it's an i20". Being a tube frame silhouette I guess the line is blurred.

[PLuto]

I don't think they ever said they were building a brand new car, just tweaking the current one.

"the former Renault Formula 1 boss has now shared his frustrations over the proposals, which have already forced the team to scrap its investment into planned 2025 developments for its i20N Rally1 car. Abiteboul says the updates have been rendered redundant by the technical changes put forward for next year."

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/fias-2025-wrc-rules-timeline-too-tight-for-hyundai-to-do-a-good-job-10594403/10594403/

They were building a brand new car...

[PLuto]

I didnt wanted to publish anything here as I am always pesimistic regarding lot of things, so I didnt liked this new rules so much. But when I was talking to people involved in rallysport on various positions, I was surprised how negative about this changes they are. We all know that rallysport is not in a good shape for various reasons. For last few years nobody made anything significant to make it much better. Last autumn they have confirmed that current cars will continue until 2026, they have signed deal with Compact Dynamics. And suddenly, few weeks later they have made new group to think about future of WRC. Another few weeks passed and this group came with revolutional changes in the sport with almost immediate effect. And this changes looks drastical in all ways. And not only public reactions (teams must also thinks politicaly and cannot tell to media everything what they think) of manufactures in Rally1 or Rally2 show that they were not prepared for these changes. And in reality I am not sure if anyone wanted that proposed changes, especially so quickly. For manufacturers it is also a bad signal that regulations and guarantee limits can be easily broken. So stability and confidence to the rules can be easily lost...

[the sniper]

I can't believe the WRC is seemingly going to suffer from another Dave Richards fronted revolution...

[Andre Oliveira]

STOP

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-teams-unify-in-call-to-retain-rally1-regulations/?fbclid=IwAR0QVOvqZyeneUJ6wFVRMkbhfvhZIttxBtivlR3k Ny21_l0A1TwPV_FUhS0_aem_AWFwMzUh54iDYsMvJAdgRu_9Yq q3EWzmcMdA8GbfnZ1OQVnsFrnBv08GUyVE3kG74zg

[WRCStan]

Besides rally fans, let's see how the F1 fans and media treat this news.

[WRCStan]

Oh and don't forget how the fans shaped these proposed regulations!

[macebig]

Overrule them. Teams are clearly putting their own interests over the interests of the sport. Toyota wants to retain the status quo, Hyundai is one foot out the door and Ford doesn't have anything to replace the Puma atm. Keeping Rally 1s as they are is a death sentence for WRC.

[the sniper]

Besides rally fans, let's see how the F1 fans and media treat this news.

With, 'what is rally?'...

[WRCStan]

With, 'what is rally?'...

I was thinking more abuse they get for fucking things up, particularly the president.

[AndyRAC]

I was thinking more abuse they get for fucking things up, particularly the president.

F1 has been determined to get rid of him since he was elected; he's not from their world - and isn't suitable in their eyes. No other series has a problem with him, only F1.......

[EstWRC]

Overrule them. Teams are clearly putting their own interests over the interests of the sport. Toyota wants to retain the status quo, Hyundai is one foot out the door and Ford doesn't have anything to replace the Puma atm. Keeping Rally 1s as they are is a death sentence for WRC.

I recommend to read Plutos post

[Backa]

Overrule them. Teams are clearly putting their own interests over the interests of the sport.

Not sure if potentially losing Toyota, Hyundai and M-Sport would be better than finding some common ground. WRC keeping hybrids for 2025 and 2026 is not death sentence.

[doubled1978]

I think the ‘real’ aims of the discussions will become evident soon enough. For me I suspect the FIA/Promoter want the teams to commit to running more cars in the short term to keep the rules stable. I don’t believe this combined Rally 1-/Rally 2+ thing was anything more than a motivation to the teams to negotiate a better field of Rally 1 cars in the short term.
I might be wrong of course, but let’s see.

[seb_sh]

For manufacturers it is also a bad signal that regulations and guarantee limits can be easily broken. So stability and confidence to the rules can be easily lost...

I think this is the main issue rather than what is technically possible. Let's see where it leads, if they compromise and keep the cars but add an extra car each for young drivers it would be fine for me, but keeping 8 cars for 2 more years is not appealing to me...

[becher]

I think the ‘real’ aims of the discussions will become evident soon enough. For me I suspect the FIA/Promoter want the teams to commit to running more cars in the short term to keep the rules stable. I don’t believe this combined Rally 1-/Rally 2+ thing was anything more than a motivation to the teams to negotiate a better field of Rally 1 cars in the short term.
I might be wrong of course, but let’s see.

That would actually be quite a nice scenario.

[Eli]

With all the bickering and all these things, they should've discussed the regulations for 2027 and have something finalised and not get to the end of 2025 with barely knowing what will be the regulations for 2027.

[doubled1978]

That would actually be quite a nice scenario.

It’s a tactic as old as time, announce a plan that the teams really don’t want and negotiate back to the point you really wanted to get to in the first place.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota were taking the 'new Regs' seriously, already testing a 2025-spec Rally1...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKWcQCvWwAAQKpQ?format=jpg&name=medium

[saco0o]

on the positive side, its impressive toyota's commitment with rallying. they signed the petition for fia to keep the hybrids (together with hyundai and msport) and they are already testing rally1- and rally2+. thats honestly really incredible. that is commitment, not just politics. putting their wallet where their mouth is. incredible imo.

[Kenneth]

F1 has been determined to get rid of him since he was elected; he's not from their world - and isn't suitable in their eyes. No other series has a problem with him, only F1.......

Don't forget that F1 wants to get rid of him because he literally wants to improve the sport aspect over profits.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Asked by Autosport if he had any hope the FIA would make changes to its plans for next year, before the letter was sent, Abiteboul said: “We have expressed our opinion in December, in January and then February, verbally and in writing.

“At some point you have to simply deal with it and accept the governing body has made its mind and the one thing we need to understand is the aftermath of it from a competitiveness perspective.

“Hyundai is a very committed to rally and we want to be a serious competitor and we want to do what we need to do to have a competitive car against our competitors.

“We had good results in the opening rounds. I think we all agree that there were some favourable circumstances even if Thierry [Neuville] was remarkable in Monte Carlo.

“We know we still have a clear handicap against the Toyota and now we are facing a situation where this handicap has to remain for another two years.”


https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-teams-pushing-fia-to-keep-current-rally1-rules-for-2025/10595746/

[saco0o]

come back, ralliart, stop teasing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MgVCkRnGMo&t=10s

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rovanpera has his say...

https://rallyjournal.com/kalle-rovanpera-delivers-blunt-commentary/

[TypeR]

It's like a Benny Hill show..
I don't want this, I don't like that..
Teams and FIA/WRC maybe call each other and hold a serious meeting, not everybody commenting after one part has made some decisions.

[saco0o]

keep the hybrid rally1 then, fine, whatever. just put the older rally1 cars (22, 23 and 24) to be raced by costumers/sattelite/privateers withouth the hybrid then. gotta increase those numbers of entries ffs. and allow them to score points on the top class. they will barely scare the manufacturer teams/drivers. deal?

[Eli]

Or maybe simply remove the hybrid for next year and leave it at that and then start working on regulations for 2027, or 2028 with the ways things are going.

[saco0o]

Where could Hyundai race his new IONIQ electric car? Wheeere? Hmmmm...
https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/noticia/hyundai-ioniq-5-n-en1/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It’s WRC Commission meeting day...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/whats-at-stake-on-this-wrc-tuesday/

[EstWRC]

Or maybe simply remove the hybrid for next year and leave it at that and then start working on regulations for 2027, or 2028 with the ways things are going.

Are you Latvala perhaps? ;)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240409/74e5bfdebc737ec65147c8c0c97e6391.jpg


https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-teams-pushing-fia-to-keep-current-rally1-rules-for-2025/10595746/

[saco0o]

just hoping for them to stop thinking about themselves and start to focusing on 'dont let wrc die'.

[Eli]

Are you Latvala perhaps? ;)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240409/74e5bfdebc737ec65147c8c0c97e6391.jpg


https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-teams-pushing-fia-to-keep-current-rally1-rules-for-2025/10595746/

I wish, if I were him, I’d still try and compete ;)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

FIA confident of “collaborative solutions” to WRC teams' 2025 concerns...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/fia-confident-of-collaborative-solutions-to-wrc-teams-2025-concerns/10596940/

[saco0o]

tbh in the end of the day its probably not actually about 'which car' should they run or 'how many manufacturers" are participating, or "the cost" of top class teams. the reality is that "rallying" is simply way too difficult to promote and to "sell". thats it. and im not convinced silly red bull videos (like for f1) would work in this sport. i dont think this the "promotion" the sport lacks. its just a different beast. sometimes i even think that 'rallying' only exists because of the videos on youtube: crazu crashes, crazy fast onboards, crazy 'near misses' filmed by people on the stages AND the video games. other than that, its just us, some 200k fans(??) that still love and follow the sport, in a way.
i love those dirt fish videos, the hyundai youtube channel with some good content from the events but thats not stuff that would interest people that dont follow rally. not only that, 3 day event is simply way to difficult to sell to 'other motorsport fans' (to try to gain more and more new fans). gen-z? pfff forget it. its just crash / close call videos and streamer playing dirt rally on twitch tv. i dont actually think rally1, rally2, having groupB back whatever.. i dont think thats "wrc actual problem". are we ready to move to more rally sprints, way more gymkhana special stages, rallycross stages...? heck no! then, idk if wrc can grow like we want. thoughts?

[TypeR]

No official news and regulations revealed yet..

But.. as far as I have heard from different sources, there will be a huge change in tyre supplier and top class cars must have 4wd.
+ person operating the vehicle must wear gloves and should listen to the co-operating person in the car.

[Eli]

No official news and regulations revealed yet..

But.. as far as I have heard from different sources, there will be a huge change in tyre supplier and top class cars must have 4wd.
+ person operating the vehicle must wear gloves and should listen to the co-operating person in the car.

Hankook are of the hook or are you implying everything will stay the same?

[WRCStan]

No official news and regulations revealed yet..

But.. as far as I have heard from different sources, there will be a huge change in tyre supplier and top class cars must have 4wd.
+ person operating the vehicle must wear gloves and should listen to the co-operating person in the car.

How do you know this? Let me guess: "can't say in public"?

[WRCStan]

thoughts?

Fair points if the context is growth, but right now nobody knows what next season looks like for the remaining manufacturers and 200k followers, so some of these points do matter.

[saco0o]

No official news and regulations revealed yet..

But.. as far as I have heard from different sources, there will be a huge change in tyre supplier and top class cars must have 4wd.
+ person operating the vehicle must wear gloves and should listen to the co-operating person in the car.


4wd? no, thats unacceptable!

[WRCStan]

wearing gloves = electric cars?
well. Hyundai "just" presented its new IONIQ electric race car. i wonder if its for rallying

No, racecars belong on race tracks.

[saco0o]

well well well... subaru's performance new boss wants to go back to wrc
https://www.drive.com.au/news/subarus-new-sti-boss-eyes-a-return-to-world-rally/

[macebig]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/sainzs-recipe-for-making-the-wrc-great-again/
Spot on. Similar rules to Group A are needed. Especially if they can make base cars available widely and allow parts off the shelf like back in the day. Cut the ultra expensive crap and near prototype vehicles.

[WRCStan]

Spot on. Similar rules to Group A are needed. Especially if they can make base cars available widely and allow parts off the shelf like back in the day. Cut the ultra expensive crap and near prototype vehicles.

Such as?


*GR Yaris... (yes, yes)
*...
*...
*...

Edit: Maybe Rally3 is the answer for Macebig. ? Those are the similar 'improved production cars' rules.

[saco0o]

i agree with sainz on that and i continue to think manufacturers should be able to build hybrid/ev/hydrogen rally2 cars for their factory teams using a "power to weight ratio" form of b.o.p. to keep everybody on the same spec but THE MOMENT fia announce "lets go to rally2 cars because what carlos said is what we believe too", we will all going to enter mode "no, but we are top and special like f1 and motogp. we are not a national championship. need prototypes". lol we are so screwed because of ourselves.

[Mirek]

i agree with sainz on that and i continue to think manufacturers should be able to build hybrid/ev/hydrogen rally2 cars for their factory teams using a "power to weight ratio" form of b.o.p. to keep everybody on the same spec but THE MOMENT fia announce "lets go to rally2 cars because what carlos said is what we believe too", we will all going to enter mode "no, but we are top and special like f1 and motogp. we are not a national championship. need prototypes". lol we are so screwed because of ourselves.

Power to weight ratio doesn't bring otherwise different designes to the same level. That is total misconception completely ignoring other differencies such as drivetrain, suspension, aero, weight ballance, center of gravity, inertias etc.

Bringing different cars to the same performance level is way more complicated and in fact it's impossible to universally level them for every conditions. Some designs will be always in advantage against others depending on the particular event conditions.

[Mirek]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/sainzs-recipe-for-making-the-wrc-great-again/
Spot on. Similar rules to Group A are needed. Especially if they can make base cars available widely and allow parts off the shelf like back in the day. Cut the ultra expensive crap and near prototype vehicles.

Group A-like rules are useless in 2024. Actually that idea run out of steam already nearly 30 years ago.

[macebig]

Group A-like rules are useless in 2024. Actually that idea run out of steam already nearly 30 years ago.

Not really. Rally 2 is still based on production bodyshells. That's step 1. Keep stock bodies with the addition of a tailgate rear wing and enforce off the shelf suspension and 4WD parts. Use the production engine stated on the homologation papers as the full rally engine (no significant alterations) and bop the engines via turbo pressures and weight like GT3 do. Allow privateers to homologate and run cars and that's it. It will definitely be better than the 6 car championship we are currently experiencing.

[Kenneth]

In that case we would have *check notes* yeah, Toyota GR Yaris. There is basically no other car that would work as you described.

[Mirek]

Not really. Rally 2 is still based on production bodyshells. That's step 1.

That doesn't make Rally2 rules in any way close to what gr.A rules were. Those are two completely different worlds.

[WRCStan]

Not really. Rally 2 is still based on production bodyshells. That's step 1. Keep stock bodies with the addition of a tailgate rear wing and enforce off the shelf suspension and 4WD parts. Use the production engine stated on the homologation papers as the full rally engine (no significant alterations)

So.... Rally3?

[macebig]

Why not? If it allows at least 10-15 competitive entries for each rally, Rally 3 it is.

[Eli]

Is there any news since last week or will we be in the dark until the end of June?

[WRCStan]

Why not? If it allows at least 10-15 competitive entries for each rally, Rally 3 it is.

Because we are talking about the flagship class of a commercial world championship.

Be honest, would you rather pay for JWRC+ instead of the Rally1s and current top drivers?

[macebig]

Yes. If it allows every rally to be competitive for more than 2-3 drivers, brings back local surprises and helps young talents shine, 100%. Fancy cars mean nothing on their own. Look no further than WEC.LMP1s were much more advanced than the current LMDh/LMH combo. But, LMP1s ended up being a 2 car/1 team affair,while now there are close to 20 competitive entries from 5+ manufacturers and even more teams.

[WRCStan]

Yes. If it allows every rally to be competitive for more than 2-3 drivers, brings back local surprises and helps young talents shine, 100%. Fancy cars mean nothing on their own. Look no further than WEC.LMP1s were much more advanced than the current LMDh/LMH combo. But, LMP1s ended up being a 2 car/1 team affair,while now there are close to 20 competitive entries from 5+ manufacturers and even more teams.

There'll never be a standalone series at JWRC level touring the globe. That doesn't even leave Europe, is only 5 events now, and is subsidised by the FIA. You think drivers would aspire to go from winning their national championships at Rally2 to go round the world in a Rally3? Or even stay at home and drop a class when WRC visits? It's not happening, WRC3 can show you that.

WEC schmeck. Bored of hearing how it's got all the answers. And all this local driver crap too, it's simply not marketable however romantic/nostalgic it is.

[AndyRAC]

WEC schmeck. Bored of hearing how it's got all the answers. And all this local driver crap too, it's simply not marketable however romantic/nostalgic it is.

The WEC is far from perfect; but they addressed their issues.....and are reaping the rewards. You, and too many others have your heads in the sand.......

[Kenneth]

Look no further than WEC.

But WEC did exact opposite of what you described. They opened the class as much as possible while keeping the costs low. It allowed either custom chassis or one of 4 spec chassis, they allowed to use any engine the manufacturers wants, they allowed manufacturers to choose if they want hybrid or not, but they limited aero, power inputs, etc.... Proposed 2026 Rally1 is somewhat similar to that.

[Mirek]

Asking for new rules being based on a stock car in 2024 is completely ignorrant to the development in automotive. In the future even Rally2 and Rally3 rules will face troubles to find suitable base cars (but not only cars but also stock-based components, especially engines) and there is zero hope that some other manufacturer will repeat what Toyota did with the Yaris GR.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Asking for new rules being based on a stock car in 2024 is completely ignorrant to the development in automotive. In the future even Rally2 and Rally3 rules will face troubles to find suitable base cars (but not only cars but also stock-based components, especially engines) and there is zero hope that some other manufacturer will repeat what Toyota did with the Yaris GR.

Are you saying that the Puma is unsuitable become Ford's future Rally 2/ 3 car ? It's the best-selling car in the UK and the trend for such crossovers is strong looking ahead.

[skarderud]

I think mr. Sainz is right, skip Rally1

If we look a little longer in time, FIA can make a safetycell-based Rally2 ruleset that can be the next generation or for teams that don't have a suitable car-option.

https://rallyjournal.com/how-can-the-golden-days-of-the-wrc-be-brought-back-a-two-time-world-champion-has-a-clear-recipe/?fbclid=IwY2xjawCKIc0BHSLa2Dt1Tx2Qcll1021uiZX3psFq r38S04yxHyRHnY9Sl07IVYVbzcW_dw

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[Mirek]

Are you saying that the Puma is unsuitable become Ford's future Rally 2/ 3 car ? It's the best-selling car in the UK and the trend for such crossovers is strong looking ahead.

You can't base future regulations on something what is on the market today. You have to look ahead in the future. Otherwise you will have to come over and over again with some last minute mess. A successful championship needs long term stability and a stability without taking the future into account is impossible.

[WRCStan]

You, and too many others have your heads in the sand.......

Maybe, if the context is how to ensure WRC survives one more season by only changing the car regs and not tackling the issues, then it looks like I do.

From another POV, mine, thinking a WRC sustains without the manufacturers' might as entrant sponsors is having your head in the sand. That's where the FIA now sit IMO. If they want long term sustainability they need to rip up both the commercial arrangements and sporting principles and think again. Nobody seems to want to have these conversations here but then not enough people understand/take interest in the former, and not enough people even want to see the latter change. But that's where I sit when I support RC1 using Rally1 as proxy.

[Kenneth]

I think mr. Sainz is right, skip Rally1.
FIA can make a safetycell-based Rally2 ruleset that can be the next generation or for teams that don't have a suitable car-option.


So you propose... the proposed 2027 Rally1 cars?

[PLuto]

You can't base future regulations on something what is on the market today. You have to look ahead in the future. Otherwise you will have to come over and over again with some last minute mess. A successful championship needs long term stability and a stability without taking the future into account is impossible.

But important question is - what is the future?

[Mirek]

But important question is - what is the future?

Exactly. I stated here plenty of times in the past that it's a million Dollar question however we can, at least, say what is not the future - and thirty years old model for regulations is definitely one of those things.

[WRCStan]

But important question is - what is the future?

Ask the manufacturers, most have long term strategies.

[PLuto]

Ask the manufacturers, most have long term strategies.

They dont know also...

[WRCStan]

They dont know also...

Whether they go the 'correct' route and whether they put all eggs in one basket or not is not the point. All have a plan they are working to and can get a marketing team behind.

[Andre Oliveira]

They dont know also...

So what's better? Long term for nothing or "sailing by sight" with little changes?

[skarderud]

So you propose... the proposed 2027 Rally1 cars?A lesser version actually, the proposed was something between todays Rally1 and Rally2.
Rally2 as is, a safetycellbased rally2 for teams that not have suitable car.
And i really don't care if the manu's keep up or not, if its Hyundai or Redbull as "brand" .

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[Kenneth]

Well but aren't the future Rally1 basically that? Rally2 with safety cell, a bit more powerful and a bit larger aero. So FIA can make a variant with less aero, less tuned engines, limited suspension or something and call it Rally2. Basically like an old LMP1/LMP2 situation.

To me it seems like future Rally1s are closer to today's Rally2 than Rally1, excluding the safety cell.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Dirtfish podcast on this suggests the only long-term future for WRC is to allow whatever car / propulsion / fuel manufacturers want to use and equalise performance through handicapping.

[saco0o]

But important question is - what is the future?

this may sound really weird but "autonomous" "transportation" are "part" of the future, right? if wec is cleaver, they will add that to 24h of Le Mans. where hypercars must do a "1 hour stint on fully autonomous mode". i understand thats really weird, but its a really interesting challenge and it could attract some investments and casual eye balls.

wrc would get some clicks if one driver starts competing with an "a.i. / gps" as co-driver in one or two events lol totally not what i think motorsport represents but it is a world championship after all. and if we want to talk about future. (meh)

[saco0o]

also talking about "the future", after "millenials" and "gen-z" we have the people born after 2011. the "gen alpha".
they are staaaarting to reach that age where people start to get hooked on stuff, like musical genre and sports.
i dont see rallying being on the top of these fellow's lists =/

[Backa]

i understand thats really weird, but its a really interesting challenge and it could attract some investments and casual eye balls.

I doubt AI driving is future of motorsport lol. Chess engines are much better than homo sapiens for years but people still prefer to watch Carlsen vs Nakamura than Stockfish vs AlphaZero

[WRCStan]

I doubt AI driving is future of motorsport lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fv2HR6Sc48

[saco0o]

I doubt AI driving is future of motorsport lol. Chess engines are much better than homo sapiens for years but people still prefer to watch Carlsen vs Nakamura than Stockfish vs AlphaZero

unless alphazero is using a buttplug.................. (weird inside joke, hope you got that lol)
but yeah, no. NEVER, honestly. buuut i dont deny that i'd like to see the '1 hour' (or one lap, whatever) stint at le mans 24h on full autonomous, cuz it seems a place for something like that. or no, whatever, i barely watch that, what am i talking about haha

[Kenneth]

Wtf are you talking about lol.

[saco0o]

Wtf are you talking about lol.
hahaha totally off topic, but there was this weird thing last year in the world of chess where a teen beat one of the best players in the competition, but then this older player started saying stuff like that in order to justify his lost and to try to appeal against the teenager, saying he was probably cheating somehow. your regular chess-world stuff haha

[WRCStan]

Wtf are you talking about lol.

It's a very long race in France.

[Kenneth]

It's a very long race in France.

Yeah that's the only part I get.

[Kenneth]

Btw Andretti said "our goal is to be in every single major sporting racing event in the world" at the opening of their new F1 facility, so I guess they will also aim at WRC with new, open to non-manufacturer teams rules. They are already in Extreme E. Would be kinda funny to see Cadillac go to WRC with them.

[Doon]

Btw Andretti said "our goal is to be in every single major sporting racing event in the world" at the opening of their new F1 facility, so I guess they will also aim at WRC with new, open to non-manufacturer teams rules. They are already in Extreme E. Would be kinda funny to see Cadillac go to WRC with them.

I'd be surprised if Andretti knew the WRC existed, let alone consider it a "major sporting racing event".

[deephouse]

I'd be surprised if Andretti knew the WRC existed, let alone consider it a "major sporting racing event".

I'm sure if they would be interested in WRC, they could enter way easier than in F1. Subaru USA Andretti version with Semenuk onboard.

[Doon]

I'm sure if they would be interested in WRC, they could enter way easier than in F1. Subaru USA Andretti version with Semenuk onboard.

They could because WRC will take anyone, F1 can be selective. But why bother? The WRC has little exposure in North America, there's not even an event there. If it's a minority sport in Europe, it's basically non-existent in the USA/Canada. Globally, F1 is a major sport with household names, huge revenue and plenty of sponsorship opportunities. The WRC is none of those.

[Kenneth]

You can say that about every single motorsport except F1. Yet Andretti competes in Extreme E, Formula E or Australian Supercars...

[saco0o]

You can say that about every single motorsport except F1. Yet Andretti competes in Extreme E, Formula E or Australian Supercars...

i think Michael said that while trying to get an indycar sponsorship, the guy saw a picture of the electric FE car in the Andretti's office and got stoked saying stuff like "oh, does such thing even exist? i want to sponsor that, not indycar". its their current sponsor in FE (they are current champ btw). something similar happened with the extreme-e. the sponsor simply got interested because "oh, its electric? we could use that". so in those cases there was the green washing interest from these partners. in australia they are a partner-sponsor. its not an aaaaactual andretti squad.
what wrc could bring to them? idk. they are in imsa too? that would make sense but more because its an american series. i heard they want to get in nascar too. those stuff have some values for them. i dont see wrc adding value to anyone right now, which is sad as f*

[deephouse]

i think Michael said that while trying to get an indycar sponsorship, the guy saw a picture of the electric FE car in the Andretti's office and got stoked saying stuff like "oh, does such thing even exist? i want to sponsor that, not indycar". its their current sponsor in FE (they are current champ btw). something similar happened with the extreme-e. the sponsor simply got interested because "oh, its electric? we could use that". so in those cases there was the green washing interest from these partners. in australia they are a partner-sponsor. its not an aaaaactual andretti squad.
what wrc could bring to them? idk. they are in imsa too? that would make sense but more because its an american series. i heard they want to get in nascar too. those stuff have some values for them. i dont see wrc adding value to anyone right now, which is sad as f*

When and big IF they bring the round in US, it could add some value to them and maybe some interest. But I think they would enter with already made machines and most likely that would be ford.

[Eli]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/fia-not-at-war-with-manufacturers-over-2025-wrc-technical-rules/10602000/

They say they’re not at war but then go on to say:

“We are fully understanding of the position of where the manufacturers are. They just want to do nothing, nothing at all.”

When asked if the plan is to work on a compromise on regulations with the manufacturers, he added: “I think that is where we are at the moment. That is where the discussion is. We have all the options on the table. We know what the target is and what the aim is.”

Wheatley also clarified the three reasons why the FIA has taken such an intervention to propose changes for 2025 and 2026 instead of focusing on just 2027.

He added: “There were three key elements, the first was Pirelli not committing [to a new tyre deal]. The second, the drivers not wanting to do the championship and the third was, and we always have this discussion about Ford whether they are win or out, but there was an additional layer and that was about Hyundai continuing [in the WRC]. That has been a fundamental change in the discussion going forward.”

The WRC Commission is set to meet again on April 25.”

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The Manufacturers have all the power, without them the WRC is dead. They clearly wont or cant accept the proposed changes either financially or in the timeframe.

I see the only solution to getting more cars at the top level being more deals like has been done for Sesks, with WRC Promoter giving some financial support.