Massi and Red Flag

[F1nKS]

The Red Flag rules that allow you to fix things and change tires are ludicrous in F1. It is a stupid rule.

The only thing more stupider is Massi putting out a safety car and then red-flagging the race after after a bunch of laps.

The red flag rule and Massi need to go. Between that stupid red flag call and him trying to "negotiate" during the race instead of handling it through normal channels (e.g. stewards) caused part of the problems.

The fact is he feels he needs to circumvent the stewards because they are inconsistent actually points to his lack of leadership. I don't know how any of these teams can have any confidence in him and the stewards.

I would recommend the following solution:

1. Fire Massi and bring in somebody credible and respected.

2. Stewards should be a consistent group of people instead of a different group each weekend.

3. Fix the rules and update them to 2021 standards. Fix the red flag rule. Actually have a real penalty for ruining another person race.

Hamilton previously had this to say on the issue


"Ultimately, when someone destroys your race through an error and it's kind of a tap on the hand really – they're allowed to come back and still finish ahead of that person he took out – it doesn't weigh up," Hamilton said after that race.

"You shouldn't really be able to finish ahead of him if you took him out of the race."

You will fix a lot of the excessive aggressiveness.

[airshifter]

It's tricky to make a rule about red flags really fair IMHO, and that's probably the reason for the delays. I agree it needs to be changed, but at the same time think that it would be something they really need to put some time into.

Often the red flag is due to a big off. If it was just a car going off by itself, then it would be easy to make a rule. But often it involves multiple cars, and/or the carnage creates debris which can be picked up and impact multiple cars and the tires. In that case we don't want to penalize the cars that weren't part of the mess, and no matter what we need to make sure the cars restarting are safe to do so. That's where the whole thing gets tricky.

I have no problem with a red flag after safety car laps. They have to assess the damages and repairs, and it takes time.


And overall I think there needs to be clarification on a number of things regarding the regs as well as the penalties that will apply. But I think the main reason Masi has taken so much heat is mostly due to very vague rules that are enforced by the varied body of stewards. Having a set panel of stewards as you suggest might be the best solution. It seems that race to race the line in the sand varies.

As for the "negotiations" at the time it seems odd at best to me, but in hindsight it made more sense. You had a situation where a car has to give back a position or face penalty. But if that is done right after a restart, and the cars are at the front of the field, that means you create an unusual on track lift by someone in a situation where cars are already in that first lap chaos already. It's much less dangerous to allow them to swap positions on the grid, and the advantage is rectified.

And really often the time penalty instead of giving the position back is unfair as well, and either gives the opportunity for other involved cars to benefit from the mess. Last race it was Ocon, who did nothing to deserve penalty and as such shouldn't be involved in the corrective decision. At least that is what we think, until something such as that vastly swings the outcome of a race. But short of instant decisions that are always correct, and some type of crazy VSC controlled way to give the position back with advantages and track position reset to before the incident... well it's all just going to be imperfect.

As for the Hamilton quote, I have to wonder if he thinks that should have applied to him at Silverstone? It happens, and if we enforced the rule that way it might reach the point of racers being afraid to race. Anything obviously intentional or egregious would be handed a harsher penalty regardless, and hopefully taken out of the race.

[F1nKS]

I have no problem with a red flag after safety car laps. They have to assess the damages and repairs, and it takes time.

If you were not allowed to change tires during the red flag it would not make a difference.



As for the Hamilton quote, I have to wonder if he thinks that should have applied to him at Silverstone?

He made that quote a couple of years ago. Easy to take that stance like that when you are not being challenged.

[airshifter]

As for changing tires during a red flag, I'm on the fence. Maybe it should be handled on a case by case basis. If there is a single off and no debris field, no tire changes. If there are multiple cars and a debris field, allow tire changes. But even that gets tricky, as cars that have already pitted before the accident are disadvantaged by the fact that they had to pit under green. Luck plays a part when done that way. This also applies to damage. We don't want cars/teams/drivers disadvantaged when they did nothing wrong, but allowing teams to fix damage would also include damage not caused during the event that caused the red flag.

To some extent similar issues exist during VSC periods, where the luck of track position might help or hurt those wanting to get a free pit stop. Once again the luck of when the safety car gets out and bunches up the field can impact whether any certain car has a safe window to pit. This can even be exaggerated when you have a situation such as Bottas at the last race, intentionally slowing to give them a window to double stack, while everyone else is stuck behind and losing ground.


It's not that I disagree with you on red flag repairs, or the tire changes and such. I personally hate that luck plays a part in the current rules. I'm just thinking it through to the point of how we could exclude that luck without inviting unsafe restarts.

[Nitrodaze]

The Red Flag rules that allow you to fix things and change tires are ludicrous in F1. It is a stupid rule.

The only thing more stupider is Massi putting out a safety car and then red-flagging the race after after a bunch of laps.

The red flag rule and Massi need to go. Between that stupid red flag call and him trying to "negotiate" during the race instead of handling it through normal channels (e.g. stewards) caused part of the problems.

The fact is he feels he needs to circumvent the stewards because they are inconsistent actually points to his lack of leadership. I don't know how any of these teams can have any confidence in him and the stewards.

I would recommend the following solution:

1. Fire Massi and bring in somebody credible and respected.

2. Stewards should be a consistent group of people instead of a different group each weekend.

3. Fix the rules and update them to 2021 standards. Fix the red flag rule. Actually have a real penalty for ruining another person race.

Hamilton previously had this to say on the issue



You will fix a lot of the excessive aggressiveness.

I vaguely remember the cars were in park ferme while they lined up in the pitlane during a red flag. During that period, the cars cannot be worked on. But 10 mins before the race is about to restart, engineers are allowed to change tyres or fix any damage that can be fixed within 10 minutes. But it seems the rules have changed. Cars were being worked on the moment they arrived at the pitlane. So the regulation may have changed in this respect.

I think it is ok for repairs to be fixed or tyres to be replaced while the cars are in the pitlane during the red flag. Drivers that gamble on a red flag benefit as they should. This is part of the tactics of winning. Hamilton has used this technique to great effect in the past. This time around, Verstappen has lucked into snatching the lead by benefiting from the red flag.

I don't think it is a rule that needs fixing as there is nothing wrong with it.

The FIA employed stewards are the same group throughout the season l believe. But the stewarding team at each race weekend includes an ex-driver consultant which is usually different at most race weekends through the season.

On Masi, he has become so very unpopular at the moment, such that l am sure there would be great cheer if he was fired at the end of the season. That said, his job is not the easiest in a hard-fought season such as this one. Nonetheless, most of his choices have been seen by many to be questionable.

[truefan72]

I vaguely remember the cars were in park ferme while they lined up in the pitlane during a red flag. During that period, the cars cannot be worked on. But 10 mins before the race is about to restart, engineers are allowed to change tyres or fix any damage that can be fixed within 10 minutes. But it seems the rules have changed. Cars were being worked on the moment they arrived at the pitlane. So the regulation may have changed in this respect.

I think it is ok for repairs to be fixed or tyres to be replaced while the cars are in the pitlane during the red flag. Drivers that gamble on a red flag benefit as they should. This is part of the tactics of winning. Hamilton has used this technique to great effect in the past. This time around, Verstappen has lucked into snatching the lead by benefiting from the red flag.

I don't think it is a rule that needs fixing as there is nothing wrong with it.

The FIA employed stewards are the same group throughout the season l believe. But the stewarding team at each race weekend includes an ex-driver consultant which is usually different at most race weekends through the season.

On Masi, he has become so very unpopular at the moment, such that l am sure there would be great cheer if he was fired at the end of the season. That said, his job is not the easiest in a hard-fought season such as this one. Nonetheless, most of his choices have been seen by many to be questionable.

The one thing i would take issue with is the changing of the tires.
To me it should be the opposite. Drivers should not be penalized for changing tires in the proper flow during racing conditions.
I would ban tire changes under Red Flag rules. Except for inclement weather, or changed weather conditions during the red flag.
In that way, nobody gains an unfair advantage with fresher tires.
The only benefit, should be that the field gets closer, and lapped drivers can unlap themselves.
Green conditions occur when the first lapped car reaches the back of the grid, and if it is 5 laps or less to go, then once the last lapped car is 30seconds ahead of the lead car.

[Nitrodaze]

The one thing i would take issue with is the changing of the tires.
To me it should be the opposite. Drivers should not be penalized for changing tires in the proper flow during racing conditions.
I would ban tire changes under Red Flag rules. Except for inclement weather, or changed weather conditions during the red flag.
In that way, nobody gains an unfair advantage with fresher tires.
The only benefit, should be that the field gets closer, and lapped drivers can unlap themselves.
Green conditions occur when the first lapped car reaches the back of the grid, and if it is 5 laps or less to go, then once the last lapped car is 30seconds ahead of the lead car.

One of the reasons teams are allowed to work on their cars in pitlane under red flag conditions is because most of those cars that made it to the pitlane may have incurred damage in the incident that caused the red flag. These damaged cars are repaired while on the pitlane to ensure we do not have damaged cars in the race after the red flag has been lifted. If that happens, these damaged cars could cause another dangerous accident due to them dropping broken parts on the track.

So the argument is that if cars are allowed to be repaired, other cars should be able to change tyres. Everyone benefits.

But yes, this creates a situation where some drivers enjoy an unfair advantage as a result.

[F1nKS]

I think it is ok for repairs to be fixed or tyres to be replaced while the cars are in the pitlane during the red flag.

It basically ruins the race (as Norris puts it). Red flags remove most all the strategies from the race after a red flag because nobody has to pit. No undercuts, no overcuts, no human element in the pit.

I guess you do occasionally get the situation of Gasly who stays out and finds himself in the lead because he hadn't pitted when everybody else has or like with Max last weekend.




I don't think it is a rule that needs fixing as there is nothing wrong with it.

If Hamilton loses last race because of the red flag - you would have not complained?

The only reason Max even had a chance at winning the race was because of the delayed red flag, otherwise, it was a Mercedes 1-2 with Hamilton in the lead going into this weekend.

[denkimi]

We could use the same rules as after qualifying.

Ban working on the car or changing tyres under red flag, but make anyone who does so start completely at the back from the pits.

[airshifter]

We could use the same rules as after qualifying.

Ban working on the car or changing tyres under red flag, but make anyone who does so start completely at the back from the pits.

I'd actually be fine with that, making sure that anything potentially damaging to other cars through a track hazard is required to be fixed with the resultant grid drop. And that way there is no "free" stop for anyone, and those that stopped under green don't suffer for it.

[F1nKS]

I'd actually be fine with that, making sure that anything potentially damaging to other cars through a track hazard is required to be fixed with the resultant grid drop. And that way there is no "free" stop for anyone, and those that stopped under green don't suffer for it.

They could let them change tires (to alleviate the concern that some tires might have been compromised by debris), by only allowing them to change to the same type of tire they were on. That way if they had not made their pit stop to run their 2nd type of tire in the race.

[Nitrodaze]

I'd actually be fine with that, making sure that anything potentially damaging to other cars through a track hazard is required to be fixed with the resultant grid drop. And that way there is no "free" stop for anyone, and those that stopped under green don't suffer for it.

Well, innocent drivers who were victims of the crash and especially if not involved in it would be unfairly punished. And cars that pass over carbon fibre fragments that damage their tyres would also be unfairly punished by this approach. It is imperative that all damaged parts should be changed but must be changed within the 10 minutes before the red flag is lifted. And those that do not, should retire the car.

I would support the idea that undamaged parts or tyres should not be changed. But l am opposed to cars with any damage to cat or tyre losing their track position for it.

[Nitrodaze]

If Hamilton loses last race because of the red flag - you would have not complained?

The only reason Max even had a chance at winning the race was because of the delayed red flag, otherwise, it was a Mercedes 1-2 with Hamilton in the lead going into this weekend.

Well, l did not complain about that, did l? Here l am actually defending it. So what is your point?

[F1nKS]

Well, l did not complain about that, did l? Here l am actually defending it. So what is your point?

That was not the question was it? Search deep into your heart and answer the question - if Hamilton's race was ruined by the Red Flag rule would you have not complained?

Just odd anybody would be defending the "red flag rule" - because anybody in F1 has pretty much spoken up about it and have all said it needs to be changed before next year.

"it's just crap, the rule ruins everything."

We will see if you are on the right or wrong side of history.

[Nitrodaze]

That was not the question was it? Search deep into your heart and answer the question - if Hamilton's race was ruined by the Red Flag rule would you have not complained?

Just odd anybody would be defending the "red flag rule" - because anybody in F1 has pretty much spoken up about it and have all said it needs to be changed before next year.

"it's just crap, the rule ruins everything."

We will see if you are on the right or wrong side of history.

Oooh F1nky, have your nerves been touched buddy.

BTW l agree some sort of change may be needed. But whatever it is, it would need to ensure they do not let damaged cars re-enter the race when Redflag is lifted. If teams are required to lose their positions if they fix damaged parts, then many would risk not fixing the damage which could be more problematic than allowing them to fix their damage without losing their positions.

If they are forced to replace damaged parts but at the same time lose their positions in the races as a consequence, the victims of the crash would be hard done by and would complain about the unfairness of the rules; as they should. I don't see how a rule that punishes victims of crashes doubly is fair.

I think there is merit in banning changing undamaged tyres during Red flags. But even this poses a new problem. Creating a situation where drivers go hunting for carbon fibre pieces on the track to run over, just to allow them to be able to change their tyres. The majority of the time, this opportunity may not be available to cars in the lead. Hence, this rule may well be effective. But it may allow cars out of position to manufacture an opportunity in this way by having fresher tyres to recover into race-winning positions.

There is no foolproof way to resolve this. Team and drivers would find a way to benefit.

[F1nKS]

Oooh F1nky, have your nerves been touched buddy.


Not at all.

All is good with the rules and FIA. They are perfect. :)

[airshifter]

They could let them change tires (to alleviate the concern that some tires might have been compromised by debris), by only allowing them to change to the same type of tire they were on. That way if they had not made their pit stop to run their 2nd type of tire in the race.

That only works if everyone has the right amount of the right tires to switch to though.

The more I think about it, the more I like the approach given by Denkimi. No work on the car or tire changes without going to the back of the pack. Give them the option based on the order they were in. There would still likely be drivers that gain an advantage, but not to the same extent.

One thing I would add though, it just skip the lapped drivers unlapping themselves. If the drivers leading the field had to pass them on track, why change it so the slower drivers behind them don't have to pass on track? And second..... unlapping allows them to burn fuel and makes them quicker. If their race pace was poor enough to get them lapped on track, why give them a slight upper hand because of it?

If nothing else, it just wastes time unlapping cars behind the safety car and/or after a red flag. If you're a lap down, you're a lap down.

[ouvreur]

Another potential solution could be, that in situations where first the SC is deployed, then a red flag is shown:

-The current rules for tyre changes and working on cars apply - change away, no problem
-The mandatory pit stop is no longer necessary provided drivers change to a different compound of tyre
-The restart grid is in the order which the cars were in at the end of the last complete lap before the SC was deployed

That way, nobody who made a stop under the SC is unduly penalised by the other drivers having a free tyre change, nobody who didn't stop is unduly penalised by having to stop again, and we go racing in the same order as we were running in before the incident happened. Happy days, right?