2021 - Race 21 Saudi Arabia

[F1nKS]

Race 21. This is where Hamilton for all intents and purposes ties the 2021 championship up so that there is 1 final race to crown the champion.

What if F1 is now the new WWF? It is almost like this is all scripted.

[lmmjvss]

I'm still thinking this race is not going to happen. The track is not even built! Weird.

[airshifter]

Race 21. This is where Hamilton for all intents and purposes ties the 2021 championship up so that there is 1 final race to crown the champion.

What if F1 is now the new WWF? It is almost like this is all scripted.

I'm not sure they could write a script this good really.

Unless the layout differs greatly from what it seems, Jeddah should favor Merc. But Yas Marina is much tighter, and might remain RB territory. At this point if either constructor can make a 1-2 finish it would be a big blow for the WDC standings as well as the WCC standings. And there is potential for it to happen at either track if the #2 drivers stay on their game. I'm expecting Jeddah to favor Merc, but with the fresh track and conditions, it may well be a toss up, as well as which team found some performance within their resources.





I'm still thinking this race is not going to happen. The track is not even built! Weird.

Well you can't expect them to alter the track to suit the winning car until they have all the data from previous races, can you? :laugh:

In all seriousness, with a track very green I hope they don't have any "bedding in" hassles with the drains, curbs, etc. Even more with the surface itself. With the way they are pushing the schedule it could be very slick still, and that would really suck for the race.

[Fortitude]

F1 Saudi Arabia Grand Prix doubts raised as track completion going 'down to the wire'
The Saudi Arabia Grand Prix will be pivotal in the F1 title race, but doubts have surfaced as to whether the venue for the penultimate meeting of the season will be ready on time.
By Fraser Watson
12:55, Wed, Nov 17, 2021

The F1 title race won't be only thing going down 'to the wire' amid fresh doubts that the track in Saudi Arabia will be ready in time to host the penultimate race of the season. This weekend, drivers head to Qatar for a third Grand Prix in as many weeks, and will then take a two-week break ahead of a first ever F1 event at the Jeddah Street Circuit, from December 3-5.

Read MORE here;

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autosport/1522758/F1-Saudi-Arabia-Grand-Prix-track-completion-news


Jeddah track construction to be complete “in coming days”
2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix
Posted on
21st November 2021, 11:1621st November 2021, 11:28 | Written by Keith Collantine

Construction of the new Jeddah Corniche Circuit will be completed within a few days according to the promoters of the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix, which is due to take place at the track in two weeks’ time.

New photographs show the extent of the construction work on the 6.1-kilometre temporary course which will hold the country’s first Formula 1 race.

Read MORE here;

https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/21/jeddah-track-construction-to-be-complete-in-coming-days/


Jeddah Corniche Circuit nears completion ahead of the inaugural F1 Grand Prix
November 21, 2021

JEDDAH — With just two weeks to go until the inaugural Formula 1 STC Saudi Arabian Grand Prix 2021 makes its long-awaited debut, anticipation is beginning to rise for the moment the world’s greatest drivers will take on the formidable challenge of the world’s fastest and longest street track, the Jeddah Corniche Circuit.

Set to host the penultimate round of this year’s enthralling Formula 1 season, the newest race on the calendar is readying itself to play host to a titanic title battle for the ages between seven-time World Champion Lewis Hamilton and the young pretender to his crown, Max Verstappen.

Work on the track — which is officially termed a temporary facility — only began last April and is set to be completed in the coming days. Indeed, this remarkable achievement will add another record to its burgeoning list of early accomplishments: no F1 circuit has ever been constructed in a shorter period.

This incredible feat is a testament to the hard work and dedication of the inaugural Saudi Grand Prix’s devoted workforce, who have been striving tirelessly to deliver this stunning racetrack on time.

Read MORE here;

https://saudigazette.com.sa/article/613828/SAUDI-ARABIA/Jeddah-Corniche-Circuit-nears-completion-ahead-of-the-inaugural-F1-Grand-Prix


Max Verstappen vs Lewis Hamilton: How the 2021 Formula 1 title could be clinched at Saudi Arabian GP
F1's closest championship in years could be decided in inaugural Saudi Arabian GP - find out all the permutations in both the drivers' and team battles; race at Jeddah street track is live on Sky Sports F1 on December 5
By Matt Morlidge
Last Updated: 22/11/21 12:51pm

Read MORE here;

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/36788/12475487/max-verstappen-vs-lewis-hamilton-how-the-2021-formula-1-title-could-be-clinched-at-saudi-arabian-gp


Verstappen could wrap up first F1 title in Saudi Arabia
Reuters
22 November, 2021

Red Bull driver Max Verstappen will have his first shot at clinching the Formula 1 title at the inaugural Saudi Arabian Grand Prix in a couple of weeks’ time but the World Championship leader could also see his advantage disappear entirely.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/11/22/verstappen-could-wrap-up-first-f1-title-in-saudi-arabia/

[Nitrodaze]

I'm still thinking this race is not going to happen. The track is not even built! Weird.

Jeddah is a street circuit, so it would be ready for the race weekend. Being a new track on the calendar and never raced in this format before this coming weekend, we would expect some glitches here and there.

[Nitrodaze]

Race 21. This is where Hamilton for all intents and purposes ties the 2021 championship up so that there is 1 final race to crown the champion.

What if F1 is now the new WWF? It is almost like this is all scripted.

We are used to one team running away with the championship from; at least midseason. This 2021 season has turned everything we know on its head. It is not even clear for certain, who would win what.

We thought Redbull and Verstappen would win in Brazil, they didn't. We head to a track that is completely new to racing. There is no data at all to work with. Not even motorcycle racing information. It is anyone's guess who would win at this race.

One thing is certain, If Verstappen wins in Jeddah, the driver's championship is more or less over. If Hamilton wins, then it is very much a toss of the coin who wins the driver's championship. On paper, Mercedes is the favourite to win those two races. But they have to be flawless and hope their stock of engines still have the grunt that has been troublesome for Redbull. If not, chances are Redbull, would win both championships. This is true even if they have the engine to win Jeddah but lack the engine to win Abu Dhabi.

So by the look of things, it is all still up in the air. The script of the season would write itself at the start and last few laps of Abu Dhabi.

[Nitrodaze]

Unless the layout differs greatly from what it seems, Jeddah should favor Merc. But Yas Marina is much tighter, and might remain RB territory. At this point if either constructor can make a 1-2 finish it would be a big blow for the WDC standings as well as the WCC standings. And there is potential for it to happen at either track if the #2 drivers stay on their game. I'm expecting Jeddah to favor Merc, but with the fresh track and conditions, it may well be a toss up, as well as which team found some performance within their resources.

That Yas Marina may suit Redbull more than Mercedes is definitely uncertain. Mercedes was quicker than Redbull through the slow corners at Qatar. This suggests that Mercedes may be just as fast through the twisties as Redbull if not faster at Yas Marinas. It comes down to what their relative speed is on the straights. With an engine with low mileage, my money would be on the Mercedes. Otherwise, it easily would be Redbull.

[Zico]

I'm not sure they could write a script this good really.

Unless the layout differs greatly from what it seems, Jeddah should favor Merc. But Yas Marina is much tighter, and might remain RB territory. At this point if either constructor can make a 1-2 finish it would be a big blow for the WDC standings as well as the WCC standings. And there is potential for it to happen at either track if the #2 drivers stay on their game. I'm expecting Jeddah to favor Merc, but with the fresh track and conditions, it may well be a toss up, as well as which team found some performance within their resources.


Yep, looks like Jeddah will favour Merc but as Totto put it, Lewis will be using their 'spicy' engine in the remaining two races regardless (they didn't use it last weekend) so I guess the million dollar question is, will it be enough to help Lewis prevail at an otherwise Red Bull favouring Yas Marina? I think it probably will but I can't say that with any real certainty. This is shaping up to be a mouth watering stonking finale, the outcome of which, will be argued about for a very long time.

I just hope both the cars can keep up their stunning reliability to keep them in the game, would be a real shame for the fans if either of the title protagonists had a DNF in the next two.

[The Black Knight]

Yep, looks like Jeddah will favour Merc but as Totto put it, Lewis will be using their 'spicy' engine in the remaining two races regardless (they didn't use it last weekend) so I guess the million dollar question is, will it be enough to help Lewis prevail at an otherwise Red Bull favouring Yas Marina? I think it probably will but I can't say that with any real certainty. This is shaping up to be a mouth watering stonking finale, the outcome of which, will be argued about for a very long time.

I just hope both the cars can keep up their stunning reliability to keep them in the game, would be a real shame for the fans if either of the title protagonists had a DNF in the next two.

Yas Marina is much faster this year so should neutralise everything out a little.

[Zico]

Yas Marina is much faster this year so should neutralise everything out a little.

Tip even more towards Merc you mean?

[Firstgear]

Yas Marina is much faster this year so should neutralise everything out a little.
Tell me more. Did they change the layout?

[Nitrodaze]

Yep, looks like Jeddah will favour Merc but as Totto put it, Lewis will be using their 'spicy' engine in the remaining two races regardless (they didn't use it last weekend) so I guess the million dollar question is, will it be enough to help Lewis prevail at an otherwise Red Bull favouring Yas Marina? I think it probably will but I can't say that with any real certainty. This is shaping up to be a mouth watering stonking finale, the outcome of which, will be argued about for a very long time.

I just hope both the cars can keep up their stunning reliability to keep them in the game, would be a real shame for the fans if either of the title protagonists had a DNF in the next two.

I agree, a clean straight fight from start to finish would be the ideal experience for these last two races.

[The Black Knight]

Tip even more towards Merc you mean?


Tell me more. Did they change the layout?

Yes, I think so based on the circuit characteristics. 3 corners have been changed for AD this year.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.revealed-the-track-changes-aimed-at-improving-overtaking-at-abu-dhabis-yas.rejS8Xxbgoom5yPUInsek.html

[Nitrodaze]

Yes, I think so based on the circuit characteristics. 3 corners have been changed for AD this year.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.revealed-the-track-changes-aimed-at-improving-overtaking-at-abu-dhabis-yas.rejS8Xxbgoom5yPUInsek.html

Yep, that is looking like a faster lap than previous. Increased speeds at what used to be a hairpin into an ess chicane. I am glad to see those esses go.

[F1nKS]

Jeddah is a street circuit, so it would be ready for the race weekend.

It is a street circuit in name only. It has been being built over the last 7 months and they are rushing to complete it this week.

[Nitrodaze]

It is a street circuit in name only. It has been being built over the last 7 months and they are rushing to complete it this week.

As long as we don't have camels and goats running across the track, we are bound for a great race weekend. Being a new track included on the calendar at short notice, we would have to hope for a reasonable circuit. It would be much better next season l am very sure.

We however go into this race with Verstappen feeling the crosshairs of Hamilton burning into his back. Redbull would be digging real deep to find an answer to the Mercedes bullet on the fast corners of Jeddah. It is a race that would not be devoid of controversy as desperation levels reach the red zone at both camps. The stewards have to be vigilant as ever, with a high level of consistency and fairness. As any decisions they make could gift the championship title fairly or unfairly to either party. Qatar was a blemish on their record, but they have to do much better in these very crucial last two races.

[Fortitude]

Wolff warns Red Bull: ‘Spicy equipment’ on the way
Date published: November 22 2021 - Jon Wilde

Toto Wolff confirmed Lewis Hamilton’s 'rocket engine' will be rolled out again in Saudi Arabia – after he dominated the Qatar Grand Prix.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolff-mercedes-spicy-equipment/


Mercedes send warning: Hamilton to use 'spicy engine' again in Saudi Arabia
‎21‎ ‎November‎ ‎17‎:‎35

Mercedes Team Principal Toto Wolff has revealed that Lewis Hamilton's car will be fitted with their "spicy engine", which was used at the Brazilian Grand Prix, next time out in Saudi Arabia.

https://racingnews365.com/mercedes-send-warning-hamilton-to-use-spicy-engine-again-in-saudi-arabia


Lewis Hamilton set to get ‘spicy equipment’ in Saudi Arabia, Toto Wolff reveals
Mercedes are aiming to top the table in both driver and constructor standings
Karl Matchett
10:09, 22 Nov 2021

The improvements made to his engine on that occasion meant that despite a grid penalty - plus being excluded from qualifying - he came from 10th to triumph in Sao Paulo and Mercedes boss Toto Wolff feels the layout of the track in Saudi Arabia means it’s ideal to bring back the so-called ‘rocket engine’, after it was replaced in Qatar.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/formula1/lewis-hamilton-saudi-arabia-grand-prix-wolff-b1961972.html


'Spicy equipment’ on the way for Lewis Hamilton in Saudi Arabia, warns Toto Wolff
Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff is optimistic ahead of the Saudi Arabia GP
By Liam LlewellynSports Trends Writer
19:52, 22 Nov 2021


WOLF “…it’s a long straight, we’ll get our spicy equipment out for Saudi Arabia that we didn’t use [in Qatar]…”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/lewis-hamilton-toto-woff-spicy-25520968

[F1nKS]

As long as we don't have camels and goats running across the track, we are bound for a great race weekend. Being a new track included on the calendar at short notice, we would have to hope for a reasonable circuit. It would be much better next season l am very sure.

Let's hope it is a good circuit for racing.

[Whyzars]

As long as we don't have camels and goats running across the track.

Unlikely in a city the size of Jeddah but Camel Spider's do have a penchant for bright lights and can show up anywhere.

Camel Spiders are rumoured to run at 30km/h and the sight of a dozen spiders, up on their haunches, galloping down the main straight could be a wonder of nature we might not soon forget.

My wife and I lived and worked in Saudi for many years in the 90's. We are so very pleased that there will be an F1 Grand Prix in Saudi Arabia. Wow.

We both hope that the race in Jeddah is a resounding success and are hoping to be there for next years race. Fingers are crossed...

[Fortitude]

Mercedes beat Red Bull in Qatar corners, not the straights
Date published: November 24 2021 - Jamie Woodhouse

Mercedes have revealed that it was not their straight-line speed which beat Red Bull in Qatar, instead they did it in the corners.

Lewis Hamilton was dominant in Formula 1’s first visit to the Losail International Circuit, taking pole and the victory at a canter as title rival Max Verstappen was forced to settle for P2.

Much had been made about Hamilton’s new ‘rocket’ engine which made an emphatic debut in Sao Paulo, but it was given a rest for the Qatar GP, and data did indeed show that Mercedes and Red Bull were pretty even in a straight line in Qatar.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-beat-red-bull-qatar-corners/


Hill fears 'hunter' Hamilton running out of chances
Andrew Lewin24/11/2021 at 09:1724/11/2021 at 12:08

Former F1 world champion Damon Hill believes that the momentum is with Lewis Hamilton in his 2021 battle with Max Verstappen, but that the Briton is running of time and opportunities to pull off an eighth title.

Hamilton pulled off an impressive comeback drive for victory in Sao Paulo after being hit by multiple penalties, and then cruised to a dominant lights-to-flag win in Qatar to cut the points gap to Verstappen in the drivers standings.

He's now just eight points behind his rival with two races to do. On paper, two more back-to-back wins in Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi could see him win the title - but Hill reckons that will be very difficult to achieve.

https://f1i.com/news/426189-hill-fears-hunter-hamilton-running-out-of-chances.html


Formula 1: Helmut Marko makes very bold Red Bull prediction in fight with Mercedes at Saudi GP
By George Dagless
Published: 24 Nov 2021, 13:00

Never shy of giving his predictions for Formula 1, Helmut Marko has gone on record to say he expects Mercedes' recent pace advantage over Red Bull to no longer exist once we get to the Saudi Arabia Grand Prix.

The last two races have seen Max Verstappen and the Bulls rather hit for six with Lewis Hamilton's sheer speed in his Mercedes proving too hot for them and anyone else to handle.

Indeed, with two races to go, there are just eight points between the title rivals and many are suggesting that it's actually Hamilton in second place that looks the favourite for the championship because of recent form.

“Saudi Arabia is called a Mercedes job, but how often did things like this come out this year? We just have to win there,” he said to Servus TV.

“What I heard from Hermann Tilke, the track designer, is that they are fast sweeps, but they are not absolute straights.

“A lot will depend on the performance of the tyres, as we saw in Qatar.

“Mercedes is no longer superior in top speed."

https://www.givemesport.com/1790939-formula-1-helmut-marko-makes-very-bold-red-bull-prediction-in-fight-with-mercedes-at-saudi-gp

[Nitrodaze]

Who is your money on?

[Whyzars]

Who is your money on?

My money is on Valtteri at 20-1 - Merc might give him some spice as well...

[Nitrodaze]

Let's hope it is a good circuit for racing.

There is no track like Jeddah in the F1 calendar, so it would be interesting to see if Tilke has got this one right. Being a street circuit, overtaking may be a challenge. But it promises to be a very fast track. We would find out at the race weekend if it translates into great entertaining racing.

[Nitrodaze]

I love reading this guy. Check this out (https://medium.com/motor-racing/the-last-two-c9b8b5b17bd?sk=5fb156fc3f6406564e2f4eb1b2a690af). It is better said than l could manage.

[Tazio]

Here is a pretty good sim.
F1 2021 Jeddah New Track Gameplay - Jeddah Corniche Circuit - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIZDWRBasYU&t=230s)
It looks like a really fun track!

[Nitrodaze]

Here is a pretty good sim.
F1 2021 Jeddah New Track Gameplay - Jeddah Corniche Circuit - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIZDWRBasYU&t=230s)
It looks like a really fun track!

I wonder if the real track would have three DRS sections. That would definitely spice the race up. There could be quite a few crashes ib the midfield due to close-quarter racing.

[F1nKS]

I wonder if the real track would have three DRS sections. That would definitely spice the race up. There could be quite a few crashes ib the midfield due to close-quarter racing.

I have heard one analyst say this possibly could end up being one of the most dangerous street tracks (with its speed and closeness of the walls). It seems like there could be a race that is disrupted by yellow flags throughout the race.

[Tazio]

I wonder if the real track would have three DRS sections. That would definitely spice the race up. There could be quite a few crashes ib the midfield due to close-quarter racing.
Yup!!

There will be a total of 3 DRS zones spread across the circuit. The first DRS zone is between turn 20 and turn 22, with the detection zone placed around the exit of turn 17. A rather short zone compared to the other two.

:angel: https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-f1-finally-unveils-drs-zones-for-saudi-arabian-gp-the-fastest-street-circuit-in-the-world/

[N. Jones]

Here is a pretty good sim.
F1 2021 Jeddah New Track Gameplay - Jeddah Corniche Circuit - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIZDWRBasYU&t=230s)
It looks like a really fun track!

Fun? There is nowhere to pass! This track sucks and this race is going to be boring.

[Nitrodaze]

Fun? There is nowhere to pass! This track sucks and this race is going to be boring.

It would be like Monaco in that respect. But there would be a crash or two to make it interesting. Because of the three DRS zones, there would be overtakes on the straight and the fast swooping curve. There would be overtakes and counter overtakes. But the grid would most likely split into three groups

[Zico]

Fun? There is nowhere to pass! This track sucks and this race is going to be boring.


Had a look at it on the sim.. if its anywhere remotely close to this it does look like it might be possible. The DRS zone positions will have to be carefully considered for sure, if it isn't to be a 'Train' track.

https://youtu.be/rDY6oDhay8g


Not sure what my thoughts are on it are yet, it could turn out to very Monaco like in which case Qualy will likely be very important. It should provide a good sensation of speed but also a very fine line between a good result and a disastrous DNF.
There likely will be a good few casualties and safety cars in this one which could shake things right up.

[F1nKS]

It looks like it will be a very unforgiving track if you make mistakes. My gut says it will be interesting race.

[airshifter]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.first-look-ride-onboard-with-the-safety-car-for-a-lap-of-the-jeddah-corniche.3uGwOdNdpklEcGM8Hw2Jvr.html

Very narrow in quite a few areas, and lots of places where getting it wrong could be costly.

There could be some passing opportunities with the DRS zones in play, and some corners are tight enough that being late on the brakes could pay off. Being a little too late could be bad in a hurry.

I'd be shocked if we don't see red flags or a safety car at some point in the race.

[Fortitude]

KIMI RAIKKONEN
Raikkonen: I'm happy Formula 1 is nearly over for me
Alfa Romeo's Kimi Raikkonen has admitted that he feels happy his Formula 1 career is almost at an end.
Author Thomas Maher
Co-author Dieter Rencken

Kimi Raikkonen isn't showing any signs of regretting his decision to walk away from Formula 1 at the end of 2021.
The Finn is calling time on a career of more than two decades at the top level, with the 42-year-old concluding that now is the right time to retire to be with his young family at home in Switzerland.
Raikkonen's F1 career will conclude in Abu Dhabi next weekend and, despite the finish now being in sight, was his usual taciturn self when asked about whether he feels any sadness.
"No, why would you get emotional about it?" Raikkonen told accredited media, including RacingNews365.com, when asked about whether reality is hitting home.
"I'm looking really forward, I'm happy that it is soon over, so nothing sad, nothing bad about it. I think it's good."
As for whether he plans on watching the races in 2022 when he's not busy on a Sunday, Raikkonen laughed.
"I'm sure not, but probably... I'm sure I'll see some of them" he added.
"I don't know fully, but we'll see what happens. I doubt that I'll put on an alarm clock to make sure that I don't miss it, but I'm sure I'll see some of them."

https://racingnews365.com/raikkonen-im-happy-formula-1-is-nearly-over-for-me


Sports
Formula 1: Mercedes' Lewis Hamilton says 'not comfortable' with racing in Saudi Arabia
Hamilton aired his views in a news conference in Jeddah where the penultimate race of the 2021 Formula One season takes place on Sunday.
Agence France-Presse December 03, 2021 13:04:35 IST

Jeddah: World champion Lewis Hamilton admitted on Thursday he is "not comfortable" racing in Saudi Arabia this weekend as the Gulf kingdom again faces accusations of "sportswashing".
"Do I feel comfortable here? I wouldn't say I do," British driver Hamilton told a news conference in Jeddah where the penultimate race of the 2021 Formula One season takes place on Sunday.

https://www.firstpost.com/sports/formula-1-mercedes-lewis-hamilton-says-not-comfortable-with-racing-in-saudi-arabia-10183071.html


Everyone wants Verstappen to win title says Ecclestone
DECEMBER 3, 2021

Bernie Ecclestone says he and "everyone I speak to" hopes that Max Verstappen is crowned world champion for the first time either this or next Sunday.
The former F1 supremo insists that is nothing against seven time world champion Lewis Hamilton - he thinks it's simply time Formula 1 had a new winner.
When asked if an eighth title would put Hamilton above the status of F1 legend Michael Schumacher, 91-year-old Ecclestone insisted to RTL: "No, not at all.
"In fact, I'm surprised Lewis didn't say at the beginning of the year 'I'm retiring - I don't want to win more races or world championships than Michael'," he added.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/everyone-wants-verstappen-to-win-title-says-ecclestone.html


Lewis Hamilton’s title duel with Max Verstappen could turn nasty in fiery final showdowns, warns Damon Hill
Evening Standard
11:04am

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/formula-one/lewis-hamilton-max-verstappen-f1-title-saudi-arabia-gp-damon-hill-b969839.html


How Max Verstappen can win the F1 title this weekend, as Daniel Ricciardo just aims for strong finish
By Michael Doyle

Max Verstappen will go into this weekend's Saudi Arabia Grand Prix with a slender, eight-point lead in the Formula 1 drivers championship.
The 24-year-old Red Bull driver has almost been helpless in the past two races as seven-time champion Lewis Hamilton stormed to consecutive victories, closing the gap between the drivers.
However, while Hamilton and his Mercedes team have all of the momentum, Verstappen can still be crowned world champion in Jeddah.
For this to happen, Verstappen will have to finish in the top two, or the title fight will go to the season finale in Abu Dhabi.
To be world champion, Verstappen will have to leave Saudi Arabia with a 27-point lead over Hamilton.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-03/how-max-verstappen-can-win-the-f1-championship-this-weekend/100663906

[Nitrodaze]

Everyone wants Verstappen to win title says Ecclestone
DECEMBER 3, 2021

Bernie Ecclestone says he and "everyone I speak to" hopes that Max Verstappen is crowned world champion for the first time either this or next Sunday.
The former F1 supremo insists that is nothing against seven time world champion Lewis Hamilton - he thinks it's simply time Formula 1 had a new winner.
When asked if an eighth title would put Hamilton above the status of F1 legend Michael Schumacher, 91-year-old Ecclestone insisted to RTL: "No, not at all.
"In fact, I'm surprised Lewis didn't say at the beginning of the year 'I'm retiring - I don't want to win more races or world championships than Michael'," he added.

https://www.grandprix.com/news/everyone-wants-verstappen-to-win-title-says-ecclestone.html

Biased comments like that show why he no longer is in charge of F1. If Bernie is reiterating what he has heard from within the F1 management, then it would explain all those dodgy stewards decisions. They may well be prepared to overlook any dodgy Redbull antics at the next two races.



Lewis Hamilton’s title duel with Max Verstappen could turn nasty in fiery final showdowns, warns Damon Hill
Evening Standard
11:04am

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/formula-one/lewis-hamilton-max-verstappen-f1-title-saudi-arabia-gp-damon-hill-b969839.html


If Redbull is on their back foot after qualifying, their only real play is to take out Hamilton with one of their cars. This will of course depend on how well Bottas does his role. Redbull can see the light at the end of the tunnel, so my money is on them being dirty at this race.

[denkimi]

Biased comments like that show why he no longer is in charge of F1.

Bernie never cared for anything but money. And whatever creates the biggest fuzz is what makes the most money.

[Tazio]

:spanner: **** Bernie!:monkeedan

[F1nKS]

If Redbull is on their back foot after qualifying, their only real play is to take out Hamilton with one of their cars. This will of course depend on how well Bottas does his role. Redbull can see the light at the end of the tunnel, so my money is on them being dirty at this race.

No need for conspiracy theories. F1 wants Hamilton to win this race and for the championship to go to the last race.

For the sake of the "show" Red Bull will play it safe and hope to minimize their loss of points this weekend. They have already signaled that - it is clear Mercedes is too fast for RB this weekend.

[Firstgear]

Bernie's an 1diot. If he got what he wanted, we'd have a medal system right now in stead of points, and Max (with his 9 wins) would have wrapped up the championship a couple of months ago.

[Fortitude]

FORMULA 1 STC SAUDI ARABIAN GRAND PRIX 2021 - PRACTICE 1
03 05 Dec 2021 Jeddah Corniche Circuit, Jeddah

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1106/saudi-arabia/practice-1.html


FORMULA 1 STC SAUDI ARABIAN GRAND PRIX 2021 - PRACTICE 2
03 05 Dec 2021 Jeddah Corniche Circuit, Jeddah

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1106/saudi-arabia/practice-2.html


Horner calls Red Bull’s pace ‘really encouraging’ as they prepare for decisive battle in Jeddah
03 December 2021

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.horner-calls-red-bulls-pace-really-encouraging-as-they-prepare-for-decisive.5v8TsFmEDhUsChrLFjBYzw.html

[Nitrodaze]

No need for conspiracy theories. F1 wants Hamilton to win this race and for the championship to go to the last race.

For the sake of the "show" Red Bull will play it safe and hope to minimize their loss of points this weekend. They have already signaled that - it is clear Mercedes is too fast for RB this weekend.

It would be great if it goes to a last race shootout. Abu Dhabi is more of an even track than Jeddah. Hence, it would be down to performance at every level in each team. And there would be no loss of face for whichever team loses. Both would have proved they were deserving of winning the 2021 titles.

[airshifter]

They need to make a better decision on minimum outlap speeds in my opinion. There is just too much potential for something to go really wrong if they don't police this now.

[Nitrodaze]

The plot thickens. Verstappen tops FP3 before the qualy showdown. HAHA bring it on!

To complicate things, Hamilton is summoned to the Steward's office for impeding Mazapin and Gasly and ignoring double yellow flags. The Yellow flag aspect has been dropped by the stewards. But it is not clear what they are going to decide concerning the impeding aspect. A weird penalty would steal the fight at the front from us the fans. I hope they don't dish out a penalty that affects the fight for the championship.

[denkimi]

They have all the space and all the money and they build something as hideous as this track.

Its just sad to see.

[Nitrodaze]

Bloody hell. What an amazing lap by Verstappen that ends in the walls. That would have placed him on pole. Car damage and on his back foot going into the race.

Hamilton got a free gift there. Bottas on form again. Perez 5th and not what Redbull would want. It is all about strategy now and a great start.

[truefan72]

Bloody hell. What an amazing lap by Verstappen that ends in the walls. That would have placed him on pole. Car damage and on his back foot going into the race.

Hamilton got a free gift there. Bottas on form again. Perez 5th and not what Redbull would want. It is all about strategy now and a great start.

Yup. He certainly left it all on the track. I do foresee loser Horner now try and lodge a protest for the hamilton Fp3 incident. Because stupid fia mystically extends the protest window. masi is a joke


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nitrodaze]

Yup. He certainly left it all on the track. I do foresee loser Horner now try and lodge a protest for the hamilton Fp3 incident. Because stupid fia mystically extends the protest window. masi is a joke


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That was "all in" drive, through that lap. If he has gearbox damage, it could be very costly. I am quite astonished as to where Redbull found 0.400s to Mercedes with fresh engine on a fast-flowing track. Whatever the case, Verstappen was on the very ragged edge of adhesion. It was a truly fantastic drive.

About the steward's decision; It is very distracting to leave it till the end of the session. They had plenty of time to call on those infractions. Now, the outcome of qualy would influence their decision.

[Bagwan]

Hmmm .
Where was that "spice" they've been talking about ?

Too bad Max tagged the wall there , as Lewis was hoping to heroically overtake him to steal the points away in the last laps of the race , miraculously leaving the two gallant racers tied going to the final race of the season , a truly epic finale .

Maybe there's a way to employ the "magic" button again , to get Max ahead for a while .

[Zico]

I missed qualy but I see Hamilton has been summoned to the Stewards for something to do with double waved yellows. Grid penalty incoming?

[F1nKS]

I missed qualy but I see Hamilton has been summoned to the Stewards for something to do with double waved yellows. Grid penalty incoming?

No penalty. It was an error by marshall, that lasted like a second - no warning actually went out (e.g. flags, or on signs or on car).

[Nitrodaze]

I missed qualy but I see Hamilton has been summoned to the Stewards for something to do with double waved yellows. Grid penalty incoming?


You missed a cracking qualifying. Try to watch the highlights if you can.

They let him off the hook for the double yellows. He has two other infractions during free practice for impeding Mazapin and Gasly. This is yet to be decided by the stewards.

[Zico]

Thanks guys.

[F1nKS]

Bloody hell. What an amazing lap by Verstappen that ends in the walls. That would have placed him on pole. Car damage and on his back foot going into the race.

That is why Hamilton is world champion and Max is not. Hamilton delivered with the pressure on, Max made a critical mistake. Champions handle the pressure, other crumble.

RB has to change Max gearbox, because if they roll the dice and "hope" there was no damage they are risking a DNF. They are beating Mercedes on this track, so might as well take the penalty and work to minimize the point loss.

[F1nKS]

They let him off the hook for the double yellows.

They didn't let him "off the hook", there was no issue to penalize.



He has two other infractions during free practice for impeding Mazapin and Gasly. This is yet to be decided by the stewards.

Hamilton was given a fine.

[F1nKS]

If he has gearbox damage, it could be very costly.



The gearbox that Verstappen damaged was a new one for the race. So if he does take another new one, it will be a costly penalty.

[Fortitude]

FORMULA 1 STC SAUDI ARABIAN GRAND PRIX 2021 - PRACTICE 3
03 05 Dec 2021 Jeddah Corniche Circuit, Jeddah

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1106/saudi-arabia/practice-3.html


FORMULA 1 STC SAUDI ARABIAN GRAND PRIX 2021 - QUALIFYING
03 05 Dec 2021 Jeddah Corniche Circuit, Jeddah

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1106/saudi-arabia/qualifying.html


‘It’s terrible’ – Verstappen distraught after sublime pole attempt ends in final corner crash in Jeddah
04 December 2021

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.its-terrible-verstappen-distraught-after-pole-attempt-ends-in-despair-with.6ylHzzz66orxj7qu94Dh3T.html

[F1nKS]

They have all the space and all the money and they build something as hideous as this track.

Its just sad to see.

I don't understand it. Why would you design a track like this when you have a clean sheet of paper.

F2 showed how hard overtaking would be, and it will even be harder in F1.

[Nitrodaze]

I don't understand it. Why would you design a track like this when you have a clean sheet of paper.

F2 showed how hard overtaking would be, and it will even be harder in F1.

overcrowding on track is typical to all street circuits. It happens in Monaco and Singapore, it is not unusual. The same can be said for overtaking. But Jeddah is wider than Monaco and most likely Singapore. The three DRS zones would produce overtaking and probably crashes.

I think it is an interesting track. Super fast and very unforgiving as Verstappen and Sainz found. It would be a really great track to race. As we would find out tomorrow.

It now has a "Wall of Challengers"

[truefan72]

I don't understand it. Why would you design a track like this when you have a clean sheet of paper.

F2 showed how hard overtaking would be, and it will even be harder in F1.

agreed.

But i just watched the 2nd F2 race and there was some passing. albeit just a little.
I imagine it will be infinitely harder with the faster, wider and more turbulent air prone F1 cars.
Also agree that the entire thought process to this track's design seems baffling.
It is almost as if it was built for Formula-E and way too late they figured out that F1 cars are a different beast.
As Denkimi said, all the space in the World and you build a track that rivals singapore and monaco. SMH

[Nitrodaze]

agreed.

But i just watched the 2nd F2 race and there was some passing. albeit just a little.
I imagine it will be infinitely harder with the faster, wider and more turbulent air prone F1 cars.
Also agree that the entire thought process to this track's design seems baffling.
It is almost as if it was built for Formula-E and way too late they figured out that F1 cars are a different beast.
As Denkimi said, all the space in the World and you build a track that rivals singapore and monaco. SMH

I think they aspired to have an in-city street circuit to boost tourism. Much like Baku, Abu Dhabi, to name a few. In-city street track is the thing nowadays. It is a very unique layout. Different to any previous tracks and to any typical race tracks. This is why l think it is a great addition to the calendar. We would get used to it, much like we did for Baku when it came along. Mainly for its quirky layout, its fast nature and its challenges to the drivers and teams.

[F1nKS]

overcrowding on track is typical to all street circuits.

This is a street circuit, because they choose to build it this way. It is not like they were limited to existing streets they had to adapt - they built it this way out of scratch.

If tomorrow's race is interesting and fun, then kudos to them. But right now it does not look like it is going to be an interesting race.

[Nitrodaze]

That is why Hamilton is world champion and Max is not. Hamilton delivered with the pressure on, Max made a critical mistake. Champions handle the pressure, other crumble.

RB has to change Max gearbox, because if they roll the dice and "hope" there was no damage they are risking a DNF. They are beating Mercedes on this track, so might as well take the penalty and work to minimize the point loss.

To be fair, l think he may have lost all of his advantage at that point. Even if he got out of that wobble. The chances are, he may have finished 2nd at best. I doubt he had the speed to make much gains on that last stretch to the finish line. It was a valiant effort but not the lap of the year as Horner exaggerates

[Nitrodaze]

This is a street circuit, because they choose to build it this way. It is not like they were limited to existing streets they had to adapt - they built it this way out of scratch.

If tomorrow's race is interesting and fun, then kudos to them. But right now it does not look like it is going to be an interesting race.

If it turns out to be a procession of F1 cars, then it would be a snooze fest. I did not see the F2 feature race, l am hoping for great action from the get-go.

[Nitrodaze]

They didn't let him "off the hook", there was no issue to penalize.




Hamilton was given a fine.

Actually, Mercedes was given a fine of $25,000 or euros

[airshifter]

Well it ended poorly for Max, but he sent it with everything him and the RB could throw at it. Reports state that RB has tested the gearbox and it tests good, so they will run it tomorrow.

Lewis was a bit loose in sector 1, but settled after that.

Both of them put in some blazing laps, and it was obvious both were really fighting for pole. And with the track layout I can see why. I suspect the race will more or less be a snoozefest. Other than strategy calls or tire issues forcing strange strategy calls, I doubt we will see much action beyond the first few corners. If passes are made it will be the DRS zones, or possibly just due to mistakes of the leading drivers. I hope I'm wrong with the lack of passing, but it seems to me they screwed it up. And it's a shame really, the track looks punishing to drive, and has enough outside reference points to figure out where the drivers are on track. And being that it's not really a street circuit, why add the worst of what street circuits offer? At the best something like Baku in quality of racing, but at least the long straight doesn't seem as insane as Baku when they race.


I expect to see Lewis get enough gap to be comfortable up front. Whether Bottas can do anything from second remains to be seen, but I'm sure Max will be hounding him waiting for mistakes IF they can follow where it matters.

I do still expect as some point we will see safety cars or red flags. When tires start going it would be easy for some of those curbs to grab a car or two.


As for qually, they need to set a VSC style speed system for this track, especially when all cars are out there. There were also several instances where it was obvious drivers slowed in the specific area warned about. I hope they do this before next years race, as it could go bad in a hurry. As for the lights vs flags, something else they need to address IMHO. If the lights aren't taken as a signal, then maybe instead of lights they simply need more flag stand areas and flaggers.

[Bagwan]

In F2 , they lost 7 runners before half way , and finished behind the safety car .

I'll guess 4 safety car periods in the race tomorrow for the F1 guys .

[F1nKS]

Well it ended poorly for Max, but he sent it with everything him and the RB could throw at it. Reports state that RB has tested the gearbox and it tests good, so they will run it tomorrow.

We learned from Leclerc they can only do some checks, but can't fully test it. I expect we wake up in the morning and when the FIA publishes all their papers before the race and RBR out of caution will take the new gearbox.

[Nitrodaze]

We learned from Leclerc they can only do some checks, but can't fully test it. I expect we wake up in the morning and when the FIA publishes all their papers before the race and RBR out of caution will take the new gearbox.

It would be very unfortunate if they have to change the gearbox. I am hoping the gearbox is ok, with the grid starting as qualified. I would be gutted if we miss out on the tussle off the start line at lights out.

If it starts without gearbox change, Verstappen has the chance to be in the lead before the first corner as the Redbull switches on its tyres faster and better than the Mercedes. But the race would come alive a few laps later when the Mercedes gets heat into their tyres and unleash the full power of their engine. Which would produce the scenario of Hamilton overtaking Verstappen in what might produce the all expected crash.

If Redbull changes the gearbox, Verstappen would start from 8th or 9th place on the grid. It would thereafter be risky work getting through the fierce midfield on this fast, twisty and wall lined track to get back to podium positions. Third is possible; at best, which may result in the lead in the driver's championship switching hands again. But the constructor's championship would be further out of Redbull's reach.

This is a crazy track with [likely] lots of crashes and safety cars to bunch up the field, so anything is possible. Including a Verstappen win.

[Fortitude]

Horner: Max was pulling 'something very special' out of the bag
Phillip van Osten
05/12/2021 at 08:1105/12/2021 at 11:07

Red Bull team boss Christian Horner says Max Verstappen was on course in qualifying in Jeddah to achieve "something very special" until it all went wrong for the Dutchman in the final corner of his lap.

During his final flyer in Q3, Verstappen was several tenths up on pace setter Lewis Hamilton, en route to securing pole for Sunday's Saudi Arabian Grand Prix.

But as the Red Bull charger headed into Jeddah's Turn 27, he locked up the front left, veered wide on the exit of the corner and hit the wall.
The ruinous mistake likely deprived Verstappen of pole position or at least of a spot on the front row alongside Hamilton. Instead, the Dutchman will start his race on Sunday from P3 on the grid.

"It was looking like the lap of the year up until that moment," commented Horner.

"It’s a great shame as it was a mighty, mighty lap and he was pulling something very special out of the bag.

"Max will be frustrated I am sure as he knows what a good lap it was, but he just needs to put it behind him now."

https://f1i.com/news/427198-horner-max-was-pulling-something-very-special-out-of-the-bag.html


Jos Verstappen: Red Bull pressure has brought out 'another Toto'
Michael Delaney
05/12/2021 at 10:0905/12/2021 at 10:11

Jos Verstappen says Red Bull's successful challenge this season of Mercedes' hegemony in F1 has brought out a different Toto Wolff, one he sees as a sore loser.

Max Verstappen leads title rival Lewis Hamilton by eight points in the Drivers' standings ahead of Sunday's penultimate round of the F1 world championship, while Red Bull trails the Brackley squad in the Constructors' championship by just five points.

As the 2021 campaign edges near its epilogue, both outfits are at each other's throat, on and off the track, their respective team principals often engaging in a war of words.

Verstappen Sr's acrimony towards Wolff was sparked last summer at Silverstone in the wake of the crash suffered by his son after a collision with Hamilton. At the time, the Dutchman took exception with Mercedes celebrating its driver's win while Max was undergoing an assessment in hospital.
Since that eventful day, the relationship between Jos Verstappen and Wolff has dissolved.

"Here at Red Bull Racing we are in a good place," said Max Verstappen's father, speaking to De Limburger.

"There have been conversations with Toto Wolff and I also thought we had a good relationship with him, but the real Toto has shown himself lately.
"There is no relationship anymore."

Asked if he considered Wolff to be a ‘bad loser’, Verstappen replied: "You could say that, yes.

"Mercedes was, of course, leading for years. Now they are cornered for the first time and you see another Toto.
"It’s a shame, but that’s how you get to know people."

https://f1i.com/news/427202-jos-verstappen-red-bull-pressure-has-brought-out-another-toto.html


Max Verstappen is set to avoid a grid penalty for the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix, RacingNews365.com understands.
Co-author
Dieter Rencken

Max Verstappen looks set to avoid taking on a new gearbox and being hit with a subsequent grid penalty for the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix, RacingNews365.com understands.

Verstappen crashed out of Saturday's qualifying session at the Jeddah Corniche Circuit while pushing for pole position, leaving him third on the grid, behind Mercedes pair Lewis Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas.

Given the angle of impact, concerns were raised over Verstappen's freshly-fitted gearbox which, if replaced, would earn him a five-place grid penalty and put him back to eighth position.

However, the unit is understood to be in working order, meaning a replacement is not required for Sunday's race.

https://racingnews365.com/verstappen-set-to-escape-gearbox-grid-penalty


MAX VERSTAPPEN
Verstappen puzzled by crash: I braked at the same point
Max Verstappen says he braked at the same point for the final corner during both of his Q3 runs at the Saudi Arabian GP.
Author Nigel Chiu

Max Verstappen has revealed that he braked at the same point for the final corner during both of his Q3 runs in Saudi Arabia, despite crashing at the end of qualifying.

Verstappen was set to take pole position, having gone fastest in Sector 1 and 2 on his second Q3 run, but crashed at the last turn before coming to a halt.

It handed pole position to title rival Lewis Hamilton who led a Mercedes 1-2 at the new Jeddah Corniche Circuit.

"I arrived there and my feeling was to brake at the same point," Verstappen told media, including RacingNews365.com. "But I had a little lock up and I still tried to finish the lap.

"I clipped the wall on the exit, so I couldn't continue. It's extremely disappointing. Of course, we had a good car in qualifying, and everything seemed to be coming together.

https://racingnews365.com/verstappen-puzzled-by-accident-i-braked-at-the-same-point

[truefan72]

I think they aspired to have an in-city street circuit to boost tourism. Much like Baku, Abu Dhabi, to name a few. In-city street track is the thing nowadays. It is a very unique layout. Different to any previous tracks and to any typical race tracks. This is why l think it is a great addition to the calendar. We would get used to it, much like we did for Baku when it came along. Mainly for its quirky layout, its fast nature and its challenges to the drivers and teams.

Baku should have been their template. To me it is the best city track. This Jeddah track is way too tight and from the look of things, virtually impossible to overtake…even with 3 drs zones. We shall see


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[truefan72]

Masi just handed Max the race. This is pathetic. They have 6 layers of tires and 3 layers of tecmo barriers but they wanna stop the race???? Madness. I’m done with Masi and the fia


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[truefan72]

The only thing damaged was the advertising. This is madness


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[airshifter]

Well it took ten laps.

Merc give up track position....

....and red flag. That role of the dice by Mercedes has now negated their advantage and the race will continue on track.

I think they have the pace to get past the Red Bull anyway...

[Nitrodaze]

I don't understand why they have red flagged the race. They being dodgy again the f*ckers

[Nitrodaze]

They did not red flag the race to clear the F2 crashes did they?

[denkimi]

This is indeed weird, there doesn't seem to be much actual damage to the barrier.
A few laps behind the safety car should have been enough to rearrange it.

But then again, they bring out safety cars and red flaggs for all sort of idiotic reasons nowadays.

[Nitrodaze]

This is indeed weird, there doesn't seem to be much actual damage to the barrier.
A few laps behind the safety car should have been enough to rearrange it.

But then again, they bring out safety cars and red flags for all sort of idiotic reasons nowadays.

Red flags are only brought out if the track is blocked or heavy machinery has to be brought on track to clear a car or marshalls have to clear a dangerous object from the track. None of the above seems to have happened.

[Whyzars]

Masi just handed Max the race.

Still early and Max has overcooked it before. Lewis has his back up so we could see a memorable race.

I am indifferent as to WDC result but a free tyre change shouldn't decide it.

[Nitrodaze]

Still early and Max has overcooked it before. Lewis has his back up so we could see a memorable race.

I am indifferent as to WDC result but a free tyre change shouldn't decide it.

The real question is, was a red flag warranted?

[truefan72]

Also what was with the lack of a penalty for stroll?
Clearly passed russell outside the track.
Masi and the stewards are just useless


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[denkimi]

Red flags are only brought out if the track is blocked or heavy machinery has to be brought on track to clear a car or marshalls have to clear a dangerous object from the track. None of the above seems to have happened.
Wat used to be the rules in the past do not necesary aplly in these modern woke times.

Nowadays everything is dangerous according to the people in charge of f1.

Remember, they redflagged silverstone too.

[Zico]

Utter nonsense how Max can change tyres in the pit after a red flag and inherit the lead like this..
I guess it makes up a bit for Silverstone with pretty much a non penalty for Lewis but two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm not impressed, the FIA need a major rethink on their rules. Things like this make a complete mockery of the sport.

[truefan72]

Max is crazy. That has to be a penalty for sure


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[truefan72]

Mazapin never even lifted. Smh


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[Nitrodaze]

Wat used to be the rules in the past do not necesary aplly in these modern woke times.

Nowadays everything is dangerous according to the people in charge of f1.

Remember, they redflagged silverstone too.

Silverstone is understandable. They had to repair the badly disarranged barriers.

[denkimi]

I wonder if they will give verstappen a penalty for overtaking outside of the track.

[Nitrodaze]

Utter nonsense how Max can change tyres in the pit after a red flag and inherit the lead like this..
I guess it makes up a bit for Silverstone with pretty much a non penalty for Lewis but two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm not impressed, the FIA need a major rethink on their rules. Things like this make a complete mockery of the sport.

To be honest, l think it was fair to take advantage of the situation.

[Nitrodaze]

Max is crazy. That has to be a penalty for sure


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That was a very plain infraction of the rules. But we wait to hear what the stewards have to say about it. They have been very weird so far, so nothing they do would surprise me.

[truefan72]

Why is Masi having a negotiation with RBR?


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[Nitrodaze]

I wonder if they will give verstappen a penalty for overtaking outside of the track.

They would probably tell him to give the place back at the restart

[denkimi]

Silverstone is understandable. They had to repair the badly disarranged barriers.
Nothing they couldn't have done under a few laps of safety car, just like here.

Its just the safety hysteria of the fia again.

[airshifter]

Red number two.

Lewis owned the corner...but in all fairness violated regs to get more heat in the tires.

Ocon did nothing wrong, but wouldn't have been there without the Max and Lewis incident.

Towards mid field...still hard to say.

[Nitrodaze]

Why is Masi having a negotiation with RBR?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They are probably his paymasters.

[truefan72]

Why is Masi getting involved like this?
This entire thing is dubious at best.


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[Nitrodaze]

It is starting Ocon, Hamilton, Verstappen

[gm99]

Are we at a bazaar or a potentially championship deciding race? This dealing for starting positions is pathetic and unworthy of F1.

[Nitrodaze]

Why is Masi getting involved like this?
This entire thing is dubious at best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is unbelievable. He is negotiating the regulations with Redbull and informing Mercedes their decision. The guy is an idiot.

[denkimi]

It looks like bottas was given the order to take verstappen out. If max hadn't braked too late and gone wide, bottas would have crashed into him.

[truefan72]

Looking at the incident again not only did max pass RBR outside the track but he also had a dangerous rentry, before the safe entry point, impeded Hamilton and forced him to lose another place. To be fair he should also get a time penalty for that


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[truefan72]

Also mazapin is a nutjob. All the cars around him slowed but he simply accelerated. This guy should not be in F1


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[denkimi]

It is unbelievable. He is negotiating the regulations with Redbull and informing
Indeed. If i was redbull i would have just taken the 5 seconds penalty.

[Tazio]

Why is Masi having a negotiation with RBR?



Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThey are playing "Let's Make a Deal" :confused: :laugh:

[truefan72]

How many times is max gonna pass hamilton on the warm up and will you look at that, he himself has left more than a 10 car gab. Lol


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[gm99]

Third time lucky for Verstappen :D

[Nitrodaze]

Looking at the incident again not only did max pass RBR outside the track but he also had a dangerous rentry, before the safe entry point, impeded Hamilton and forced him to lose another place. To be fair he should also get a time penalty for that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

With the negotiation that happened, clearly these guys are keen not to offend Redbull. So what do you think?

[Zico]

It is unbelievable. He is negotiating the regulations with Redbull and informing Mercedes their decision. The guy is an idiot.

I guess they wanted to give them the opportunity to give the place back that could not be given because of the crash. Seems bizzare to negotiate but its not so different than if the race had continued with no red flag.

[Nitrodaze]

I guess they wanted to give them the opportunity to give the place back that could not be given because of the crash. Seems bizzare to negotiate but its not so different than if the race had continued with no red flag.

If a rule has been broken. They are paid to apply the consequential penalty. Not to negotiate what penalty to apply. It is that simple.

[Zico]

If a rule has been broken. They are paid to apply the consequential penalty. Not to negotiate what penalty to apply. It is that simple.

Max didn't have the opportunity to give the place back because of the crash.

What you are saying would mean that giving the place back (as they normally allow) is against the rules? They have that exact same option in normal circumstances with no red flag.

How it panned out is just an unprecedented situation and just seems weird until you consider the above.

[gm99]

Are they going to finish this race under VSC?
This is totally ridiculous, nobody is cleaning anything up. Useless track, useless marshalling.

[denkimi]

Are they going to finish this race under VSC?
This is totally ridiculous, nobody is cleaning anything up. Useless track, useless marshalling.
Indeed. Why even bother giving a VSC for a dangerous situation when they don't fix the danger under it?

[Nitrodaze]

Max didn't have the opportunity to give the place back because of the crash.

What you are saying would mean that giving the place back (as they normally allow) is against the rules? They have that exact same option in normal circumstances with no red flag.

How it panned out is just an unprecedented situation and just seems weird until you consider the above.

The point about giving the place back is to avoid a penalty. Otherwise a penalty applies.

[Nitrodaze]

Are they going to finish this race under VSC?
This is totally ridiculous, nobody is cleaning anything up. Useless track, useless marshalling.

Exactly, nobody is doing anything. I wonder if there is any debris to clear in the first place.

[Nitrodaze]

These VSC are messing up the racing. The marshalling is very poor.

[Zico]

The point about giving the place back is to avoid a penalty. Otherwise a penalty applies.

Exactly... so why should Max not be given that same opportunity as applies normally.. just because of the red flag?

[Nitrodaze]

I said Redbull would take Hamilton out and they have done it.

[Nitrodaze]

Exactly... so why should Max not be given that same opportunity as applies normally.. just because of the red flag?

The point is that he is not for the stewards to give. They should only apply the penalty that applies when they look at the matter. It is not up for negotiation or discussion.

[truefan72]

Masi is a joke. Max break tested for sure. This thing is a joke


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[Nitrodaze]

Masi is a joke. Max break tested for sure. This thing is a joke


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It is an unending catalogue of incompetency. It is too astonishing to believe

[Zico]

The point is that he is not for the stewards to give. They should only apply the penalty that applies when they look at the matter. It is not up for negotiation or discussion.

No, I'm pretty sure you are wrong bud. The stewards tell the team of a driver to give the place back in normal race circumstances too. I've heard it discussed on the team radios before.

[Nitrodaze]

Masi is a joke. Max break tested for sure. This thing is a joke


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If he wants to give the place back, he would go to one side and slow to allow the Mercedes through. This was something else. one would not slow suddenly with a car close directly bbehinmd. Their brains in not connected now is it.

[truefan72]

That was not even one corner. I distinctly remember hamilton being penalized in spa in 2008 for that. To his alight credit he gives the place back. But they are still gonna investigate the break test. He should get a stiff penalty post race. Max is dangerous


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[Nitrodaze]

No, I'm pretty sure you are wrong bud. The stewards tell the team of a driver to give the place back in normal race circumstances too. I've heard it discussed on the team radios before.

Yes, since Masi started running the show. But that is not what the regulation say.

[denkimi]

Again weird things happening. Verstappen letting hamilton pass twice, meanwhile getting whacked by hamilton while doing it, and still getting a penalty for it.

Much incompetence from the stewards.

[Nitrodaze]

That was not even one corner. I distinctly remember hamilton being penalized in spa in 2008 for that. To his alight credit he gives the place back. But they are still gonna investigate the break test. He should get a stiff penalty post race. Max is dangerous


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I very much doubt that would be the case. Masi and the steward's office seem too friendly with Redbull. It would be brushed aside. They have what they wanted, a Verstappen win to secure the title.

[denkimi]

Masi is a joke. Max break tested for sure. This thing is a joke


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He was supposed to let hamilton pass and he did. It was just hamilton who for some reason decided to crash into the back instead of just passing by.

I wouldn't be supprised to see a penalty for hamilton.

[Nitrodaze]

Again weird things happening. Verstappen letting hamilton pass twice, meanwhile getting whacked by hamilton while doing it, and still getting a penalty for it.

Much incompetence from the stewards.

It is a bit like the Ricciardo and Verstappen crash in Baku, both drivers in the Redbull if you recall.

[Nitrodaze]

He was supposed to let hamilton pass and he did. It was just hamilton who for some reason decided to crash into the back instead of just passing by.

I wouldn't be supprised to see a penalty for hamilton.

The problem was the stewards did not inform Mercedes until the crash had occurred. Hamilton was not expecting Verstappen to suddenly slow down with him already in his slipstream

[truefan72]

Even the tv director sucks. Needed to see the bottas ocon fight SMH


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[Zico]

Yes, since Masi started running the show. But that is not what the regulation say.

Yes, well thats an argument worth its own debate..I thought you were talking solely about today. They have been doing it for a while now so in the interest of continuity, they have to keep doing it.

[truefan72]

If there is one thing that is abundantly clear is that Masi is not qualified to be a race director. Also i see the Dutch fans have voted in Max as DoTD lol


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[Nitrodaze]

Yes, well thats an argument worth its own debate..I thought you were talking solely about today. They have been doing it for a while now so in the interest of continuity, they have to keep doing it.

I suppose negotiating punishment with the offender is now a norm too.

[denkimi]

The problem was the stewards did not inform Mercedes until the crash had occurred. Hamilton was not expecting Verstappen to suddenly slow down with him already in his slipstream
That is what mercedes claimed, but they showed the message to verstappen to slow down on tv half a lap before. So it's not the stewards or redbull, it was mercedes who didn't tell hamilton.

If Hamilton hasn't had the message, than i can't blame him for it. That would make it a race incident. But mercedes must have known about it, so that makes it their fault.

But weird to give verstappen a penalty when he tried to do what was asked from him.

[Nitrodaze]

That is what mercedes claimed, but they showed the message to verstappen to slow down on tv half a lap before. So it's not the stewards or redbull, it was mercedes who didn't tell hamilton.

If Hamilton hasn't had the message, than i can't blame him for it. That would make it a race incident. But mercedes must have known about it, so that makes it their fault.

But weird to give verstappen a penalty when he tried to do what was asked from him.

You have a point. It would become clear soon. It would be unfair to punish Verstappen if that is the case.

[Whyzars]

I suppose negotiating punishment with the offender is now a norm too.


If both teams agree on outcome I don't have a problem with it.

Having said that, I don't think this is over...

[Tazio]

Masi is a joke. Max break tested for sure. This thing is a joke


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat has to be the silliest f1 race I've ever seen. I think Masi's head expolded! :grenade::spinhead:

[denkimi]

You have a point. It would become clear soon. It would be unfair to punish Verstappen if that is the case.
If Hamilton really hasn't received the message on time nobody should be penalised.

And ifind it hard to believe he would crash into the back on purpose, so it looks very much like mercedes was just too slow.

[Nitrodaze]

I just heard Hamilton did not get the message that Verstappen was going to give the place back until after they had collided. I would think Mercedes probably got the message late too.

[Nitrodaze]

If Hamilton really hasn't received the message on time nobody should be penalised.

And ifind it hard to believe he would crash into the back on purpose, so it looks very much like mercedes was just too slow.

He probably was penalized because he could have pulled to one side rather than slow on the racing line.

[Zico]

I suppose negotiating punishment with the offender is now a norm too.

In a red flag situation well yes, I guess it is and so they have to do the same if it happens again.

As I said.. Its really not so different from during a normal race. The team have the option to give the place back if told to by the Stewards... and if they choose not to they get a 5 sec penalty.
In this case the race was stopped so there really has to be a negotiation. If they didn't give him it, Max would be disadvantaged compared to anyone else it has happened to in a normal race with no red flag. Its a pretty clear and sensible thing to do.. and with continuity IMO.

[Nitrodaze]

If both teams agree on outcome I don't have a problem with it.

Having said that, I don't think this is over...

I agree with that too. But unfortunately, that was not what happened. Masi negotiated with Redbull and told Mercedes how it was going to be based on the agreement with Redbull. It was not a three-way discussion with all parties saying how they felt about it.

[truefan72]

ha ha.

Of course DiResta comes in an defends Max and questions Hamilton.
Predictable

[Nitrodaze]

In a red flag situation well yes, I guess it is and so they have to do the same if it happens again.

As I said.. Its really not so different from during a normal race. The team have the option to give the place back if told to by the Stewards... and if they choose not to they get a 5 sec penalty.
In this case the race was stopped so there really has to be a negotiation. If they didn't give him it, Max would be disadvantaged compared to anyone else it has happened to in a normal race with no red flag. Its a pretty clear and sensible thing to do.. and with continuity IMO.

The problem with that approach is, it discourages teams from taking the initiative to give the place back but carry on until told otherwise. The stewards should not have to do that, the teams should recognize when their driver has broken a rule and take pre-emptive action of asking their driver to give the place back. They are encouraged to do that because when the stewards look at the incident, their only option should be to apply the penalty due.

What we have now is teams would push their luck with the hope to negotiate their way out of the penalty that the regulation imposes. It is a slippery slope from now on, for such.

[denkimi]

I just heard Hamilton did not get the message that Verstappen was going to give the place back until after they had collided. I would think Mercedes probably got the message late too.
Me, and everyone watching have received the message in time. So i find it hard to believe mercedes didn't knew about it.

But clearly hamilton didn't knew about it, so something must have gone wrong there.

Many sketchy things have happened, both by hamilton and verstappen. I'm not sure i like this "let them race" approach. It looks often like no rules apply anymore.

[Nitrodaze]

ha ha.

Of course DiResta comes in an defends Max and questions Hamilton.
Predictable

I don't know why Sky have him in their team. The guy is as dim as they come.

[denkimi]

The problem with that approach is, it discourages teams from taking the initiative to give the place back but carry on until told otherwise. The stewards should not have to do that, the teams should recognize when their driver has broken a rule and take pre-emptive action of asking their driver to give the place back. They are encouraged to do that because when the stewards look at the incident, their only option should be to apply the penalty due.

What we have now is teams would push their luck with the hope to negotiate their way out of the penalty that the regulation imposes. It is a slippery slope from on, for such.
Those problems started when they decided to allow pushing off the track.

If they would apply the rules and punish everyone who pushes someone off, we would have far less dicussions about it.

[Nitrodaze]

Me, and everyone watching have received the message in time. So i find it hard to believe mercedes didn't knew about it.

But clearly hamilton didn't knew about it, so something must have gone wrong there.

Many sketchy things have happened, both by hamilton and verstappen. I'm not sure i like this "let them race" approach. It looks often like no rules apply anymore.

Well, watch the replay. You would hear Horner telling Verstappen to give the place back as Hamilton was closing up to him and literally under his gearbox when Verstappen received the message to give the place back. Verstappen slows as he receives that message with Hamilton having nowhere to go. To be fair the message arrived in a very tight racing moment with the message only reaching Verstappen at the time.

To be fair, Verstappen did not have much time to give way but slowing was not the right thing to do in that circumstances. I am sure he could hear that Mercedes engine very clearly to know he was right behind him. A reprimand is probably the fair punishment.

If the message had not reached Verstappen at that moment, l am sure Hamilton would have been making the move to overtake just after that moment.

[Nitrodaze]

Those problems started when they decided to allow pushing off the track.

If they would apply the rules and punish everyone who pushes someone off, we would have far less dicussions about it.

Quite true. The rules are so badly blurred now, it is unclear what constitutes a punishable offence anymore. We had the repeat of the Sao Paolo defence which caused both drivers to go off track. Last time they found no fault. Of course, Verstappen rightly felt that was an allowable defensive move and tried it again. Only this time they asked him to give the place back. How confusing is that?

[Zico]

The problem with that approach is, it discourages teams from taking the initiative to give the place back but carry on until told otherwise. The stewards should not have to do that, the teams should recognize when their driver has broken a rule and take pre-emptive action of asking their driver to give the place back. They are encouraged to do that because when the stewards look at the incident, their only option should be to apply the penalty due.

What we have now is teams would push their luck with the hope to negotiate their way out of the penalty that the regulation imposes. It is a slippery slope from on, for such.


I do see your points and while some might argue that its the stewards job, I can also see that in clear cut cases, it shouldn't have to be. Their workload should be kept to a minimum where possible.
Whether we agree with it or not, they can't suddenly stop doing it... or at least not without notice. So in the interests of continuity, it was the right thing to do today IMO.

[gm99]

Well, watch the replay. You would hear Horner telling Verstappen to give the place back as Hamilton was closing up to him and literally under his gearbox when Verstappen received the message to give the place back. Verstappen slows as he receives that message with Hamilton having nowhere to go. To be fair the message arrived in a very tight racing moment with the message only reaching Verstappen at the time.

To be fair, Verstappen did not have much time to give way but slowing was not the right thing to do in that circumstances. I am sure he could hear that Mercedes engine very clearly to know he was right behind him. A reprimand is probably the fair punishment.

If the message had not reached Verstappen at that moment, l am sure Hamilton would have been making the move to overtake just after that moment.

We don't get to hear the radio messages on TV at the same time as they're transmitted to the drivers, but usually around 20 to 30 seconds delayed, as they are screened for inappropriate cntent first. So the message from Horner to Verstappen we heard just as the crash happened actually took place quite a bit earlier.
Of course, we still don't know when or if Hamilton was told of Verstappen's intention.

[Nitrodaze]

We don't get to hear the radio messages on TV at the same time as they're transmitted to the drivers, but usually around 20 to 30 seconds delayed, as they are screened for inappropriate cntent first. So the message from Horner to Verstappen we heard just as the crash happened actually took place quite a bit earlier.
Of course, we still don't know when or if Hamilton was told of Verstappen's intention.

Quite true. It appears Verstappen got the message much earlier. Since Horner had to confirm agreement to give the place up to Masi and subsequently told Verstappen to give the place up, in parallel to Masi informing Meadows of Mercedes that the place is being given up and that being relayed to Hamilton's engineer and thereafter to Hamilton. It is clear there was a considerable gap in the time it took for the message to reach Verstappen and the time it took to reach Hamilton. Unfortunately, the message reached Hamilton after Verstappen had reacted to the message he received and resulted in a crash before Hamilton received the message.

One interesting new fact was that they were approaching a DRS detection point just when Verstappen received that message. So I could see there would have been an urgency for Verstappen to slow down considerably so as not to go over the line before Hamilton passed him. If that had happened as planned, then Verstappen would have got DRS and would have been able to mount a counterattack to take the position back.

When looking at it with all the facts, it is becoming very clear that Verstappen caused the crash by reducing speed drastically with the hope of having the pass done before the DRS line. Under the circumstances, it is reasonable to expect that Hamilton would not have expected Verstappen to slow down by how much he reduced speed.

[Zico]

Either Lewis genuinely did not know what was going on and was confused... or more likely didn't know 100% but still had a good idea, but also didn't want to pass him before the DRS line... while Max absolutely did want him to pass before it and so slowed down even further.
Bit of a grey area as both essentially trying to achieve an advantage.. or not be disadvantaged by it depending on your POV.
Until I see telemetry I'm not sure its clear cut who was most at fault so I think I'd just settle for racing incident.. something to learn from and also tighten up the rules.

It reminds me of a similar-ish incident many years ago. Lewis being told to let someone (maybe Kimi?) pass at Spa iirc after achieving an off the track pass... but did so by positioning his car so that he could get a better exit and re-pass immediately.. which he did and subsequently was either told to let him pass again or was given a time penalty, can't remember which.

[gm99]

One interesting new fact was that they were approaching a DRS detection point just when Verstappen received that message. So I could see there would have been an urgency for Verstappen to slow down considerably so as not to go over the line before Hamilton passed him. If that had happened as planned, then Verstappen would have got DRS and would have been able to mount a counterattack to take the position back.


Of course, one could also say that this was the reason Hamilton didn't want to pass Verstappen prior to the DRS point.
I tend to agree with Alex Wurz' assessment that they were both being a bit too clever there for their own good, Max in trying to make Lewis pass before the detection point, and Lewis in trying to avoid making the pass.

[Nitrodaze]

Either Lewis genuinely did not know what was going on and was confused... or more likely didn't know 100% but still had a good idea, but also didn't want to pass him before the DRS line... while Max absolutely did want him to pass before it and so slowed down even further.
Bit of a grey area as both essentially trying to achieve an advantage.. or not be disadvantaged by it depending on your POV.
Until I see telemetry I'm not sure its clear cut who was most at fault so I think I'd just settle for racing incident.. something to learn from and also tighten up the rules.

It reminds me of a similar-ish incident many years ago. Lewis being told to let someone (maybe Kimi?) pass at Spa iirc after achieving an off the track pass... but did so by positioning his car so that he could get a better exit and re-pass immediately.. which he did and subsequently was either told to let him pass again or was given a time penalty, can't remember which.

I don't think this one qualifies as a racing incident. That would be introducing another grey area. The problem was Verstappen executed his plan poorly by slowing on the racing line. He was expecting Hamilton to pass on the dirty side of the track and to do so before the DRS line. That is why it backfired. There is no blame for trying to take advantage of the DRS to help regain the place. What he should have done was to get off the racing line and slowed. Hamilton would have zoomed by into the lead, then Verstappen would have received the DRS, cleaned his tyres before the DRS activation point which is a long way off. And then use the DRS to mount a counterattack.

He fluffed it with a poor execution and caused an accident in the process.

[The Black Knight]

Either Lewis genuinely did not know what was going on and was confused... or more likely didn't know 100% but still had a good idea, but also didn't want to pass him before the DRS line... while Max absolutely did want him to pass before it and so slowed down even further.
Bit of a grey area as both essentially trying to achieve an advantage.. or not be disadvantaged by it depending on your POV.
Until I see telemetry I'm not sure its clear cut who was most at fault so I think I'd just settle for racing incident.. something to learn from and also tighten up the rules.

It reminds me of a similar-ish incident many years ago. Lewis being told to let someone (maybe Kimi?) pass at Spa iirc after achieving an off the track pass... but did so by positioning his car so that he could get a better exit and re-pass immediately.. which he did and subsequently was either told to let him pass again or was given a time penalty, can't remember which.

I think it was a case of Max knowing and Lewis not knowing and because of that Lewis didn't want to overtake as he maybe thought there was an issue on track he couldn't see. Masi should have informed Mercedes first then RBR. Max wanted DRS,Lewis didn't know what was happening, Max brake tested Lewis so he would get DRS. It was dangerous from Max although I don't think his intention was to take Lewis out he just wanted DRS, however Max should have clearly moved over and let Lewis by, he didn't, and it's his responsibility to do so safely. I think Max should be disqualified. He has been dangerous too much this year and unless he is thought a lesson he's going to kill someone.

[N. Jones]

Max slowed down and either Lewis didn't know why or as mentioned he wanted to be past the DRS detection zone. Either way the penalty for the earlier offense plus the crash on his qualifying lap, plus Hamilton winning the past four races means we will see a new record for drivers championships at UAE.

[Zico]

I don't think this one qualifies as a racing incident. That would be introducing another grey area. The problem was Verstappen executed his plan poorly by slowing on the racing line. He was expecting Hamilton to pass on the dirty side of the track and to do so before the DRS line. That is why it backfired. There is no blame for trying to take advantage of the DRS to help regain the place. What he should have done was to get off the racing line and slowed. Hamilton would have zoomed by into the lead, then Verstappen would have received the DRS, cleaned his tyres before the DRS activation point which is a long way off. And then use the DRS to mount a counterattack.

He fluffed it with a poor execution and caused an accident in the process.


If there is, its a fair point but I'm not sure a specific rule that says you must go off the racing line to let someone past?

Max wanted Lewis to pass before the DRS line while trying to be cute by leaving just enough space for him to pass, he likely made it tight so that Lewis wouldn't fly past him... so that he could stay close going onto the straight.

Meanwhile Lewis probably didn't want to pass before the DRS and just stuck behind him... so Max changed down or let off further to try and make him which took Lewis by surprise.

Both playing games.. Max's fault ..IF..he brake checked him. If he didn't it would probably be a difficult one for the stewards to pin on him considering he was told to give the place back.

Might be totally wrong with what really happened, that's just how it looks to me. Haven't seen any telemetry, nor 100% sure on specific rules that might apply here.. so still forming an opinion on it.

[Nitrodaze]

If there is, its a fair point but I'm not sure a specific rule that says you must go off the racing line to let someone past?

Max wanted Lewis to pass before the DRS line while trying to be cute by leaving just enough space for him to pass, he likely made it tight so that Lewis wouldn't fly past him... so that he could stay close going onto the straight.

Meanwhile Lewis probably didn't want to pass before the DRS and just stuck behind him... so Max changed down or let off further to try and make him which took Lewis by surprise.

Both playing games.. Max's fault ..IF..he brake checked him. If he didn't it would probably be a difficult one for the stewards to pin on him considering he was told to give the place back.

Might be totally wrong with what really happened, that's just how it looks to me. Haven't seen any telemetry, nor 100% sure on specific rules that might apply here.. so still forming an opinion on it.

You are right. There isn't a specific rule on how to give a place when instructed to do so. But that is not the point though. Judging by how very close Hamilton was behind him, slowing on the racing line was always going to result in Hamilton crashing into him. It could have turned out bad for Verstappen too. With rear tyre puncture or damage to the rear of the Redbull car. His intentions were clear, braking suddenly and as hard as he did was dangerous and why he is under investigation.

[truefan72]

I think we can all agree that the racing director and the stewards were awful. Not notifying both teams at the same time or even the aggrieved one first is just poor


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[Nitrodaze]

Max slowed down and either Lewis didn't know why or as mentioned he wanted to be past the DRS detection zone. Either way the penalty for the earlier offense plus the crash on his qualifying lap, plus Hamilton winning the past four races means we will see a new record for drivers championships at UAE.

Not necessarily so. The Redbull was just as quick as the Mercedes on a track where most of us thought Mercedes would romp off into the distance leaving Verstappen in their wake. If was not so. Verstappen was just as quick as Hamilton for all of the race. Verstappen had a very untidy race this weekend. He obviously is trying too hard and making desperate moves. Abu Dhabi is a more even track and we shall see Redbull very strong there too. If they want to beat the mighty Mercedes, they have to operate a meticulous race. They have the speed to cause an upset. But they cannot expect it to easily lamnd on their laps. They have to do better than they did at Jeddah

[Zico]

What are everyones thoughts on the track for F1?

Some drivers loved it, others less so, its fast and offers a different challenge from most others but clearly can bite as we expected and witnessed. no run offs, potentially dangerous.


Should it be on the Calender next year?

[Zico]

You are right. There isn't a specific rule on how to give a place when instructed to do so. But that is not the point though. Judging by how very close Hamilton was behind him, slowing on the racing line was always going to result in Hamilton crashing into him. It could have turned out bad for Verstappen too. With rear tyre puncture or damage to the rear of the Redbull car. His intentions were clear, braking suddenly and as hard as he did was dangerous and why he is under investigation.

If he braked, I'll agree with you.

[Bagwan]

Here , let me toss another log on the fire .

Max downshifted five times just before Lewis hit him . He likely didn't brake at all there .


Back to that first "Mick" incident .
I believe one TecPro block was pierced , and thus , it's integrity compromised . Since it was a popular spot to park , it needed fixing .
That's not Masi's fault .
Blame Tilke and his son for this stupid track .

[Nitrodaze]

What are everyones thoughts on the track for F1?

Some drivers loved it, others less so, its fast and offers a different challenge from most others but clearly can bite as we expected and witnessed. no run offs, potentially dangerous.


Should it be on the Calender next year?

I love it actually. It gives the drivers a very different kind of challenge they don't experience anywhere else. It is unforgiving as street tracks usually are. It is super fast, not for the weak-hearted. The teams and drivers have lots of data about this track now, there is much to learn from when they come back here next season.

[Zico]

I love it actually. It gives the drivers a very different kind of challenge they don't experience anywhere else. It is unforgiving as street tracks usually are. It is super fast, not for the weak-hearted. The teams and drivers have lots of data about this track now, there is much to learn from when they come back here next season.


Yep, I'm mostly in the same camp... although I can also understand why some see it as too dangerous, and too unforgiving.

[F1nKS]

What are everyones thoughts on the track for F1?

Some drivers loved it, others less so, its fast and offers a different challenge from most others but clearly can bite as we expected and witnessed. no run offs, potentially dangerous.


Should it be on the Calender next year?

The only reason it was an interesting race was the two red flags. That disrupted what would have been ho-hum Mercedes 1-2. Terrible for wheel-to-wheel racing (isn't that what they want next year?).

How many laps were run under the VSC or safety car?

There are a lot more interesting tracks that I would put in the schedule before this one. But Saudi's is giving F1 a lot of money, so it will be in the schedule probably permanently.

[Nitrodaze]

The only reason it was an interesting race was the two red flags. That disrupted what would have been ho-hum Mercedes 1-2. Terrible for wheel-to-wheel racing (isn't that what they want next year?).

How many laps were run under the VSC or safety car?

There are a lot more interesting tracks that I would put in the schedule before this one. But Saudi's is giving F1 a lot of money, so it will be in the schedule probably permanently.

Actually, there were lots of great wheel to wheel racing at this race. It had us all at the edge of our seats as all manner of dramas occurred. It was exciting and it would be much better next season with drivers being more experienced of the characteristic of this track.

[The Black Knight]

10 second timed penalty and 2 penalty points for Max. Basically have let him get away with brake testing Lewis, which they clearly show in their decision that he did.

https://twitter.com/rachelbrookestv/status/1467625114560708608?s=21

[Zico]

The only reason it was an interesting race was the two red flags. That disrupted what would have been ho-hum Mercedes 1-2. Terrible for wheel-to-wheel racing (isn't that what they want next year?).

How many laps were run under the VSC or safety car?

There are a lot more interesting tracks that I would put in the schedule before this one. But Saudi's is giving F1 a lot of money, so it will be in the schedule probably permanently.


Fair points.. could well be because of it being such a critical stage in the championship. Let's see how it does next year if it isnt.

[airshifter]

10 second timed penalty and 2 penalty points for Max. Basically have let him get away with brake testing Lewis, which they clearly show in their decision that he did.

https://twitter.com/rachelbrookestv/status/1467625114560708608?s=21

Yep. Good for those of us that wait for facts rather than speculation.

It still makes no sense though unless Max thought he would just come through. Why risk the collision when it's possible that you could be the one that comes out on the worst end?

[Zico]

10 second timed penalty and 2 penalty points for Max. Basically have let him get away with brake testing Lewis, which they clearly show in their decision that he did.

https://twitter.com/rachelbrookestv/status/1467625114560708608?s=21


So he did brake.. fair enough. In that case Max is guilty as charged. If he was going to brake to try and make Lewis pass before the DRS line he should have been fully over to the right IMO.

[denkimi]

What are everyones thoughts on the track for F1?

Some drivers loved it, others less so, its fast and offers a different challenge from most others but clearly can bite as we expected and witnessed. no run offs, potentially dangerous.


Should it be on the Calender next year?
horrible. Dangerous due to blind corners everywhere, without there being a reason for it, it was just deliberately build this way. I wonder how much money has been paid to the fia to allow them to run here.

it seems to have been specially designed to cause crashes and safety cars.



So he did brake.. fair enough. In that case Max is guilty as charged. If he was going to brake to try and make Lewis pass before the DRS line he should have been fully over to the right IMO.
so he braked and hamilton didn't pass him, so he braked more. and verstappen gets a penalty for trying to do what the fia told him to?
i wonder if they will give russel a penalty because mazepin crashed into him.

there should be some rule that if you are given the chance to overtaken, and you refuse to do so, you loose the place.

[Zico]

so he braked and hamilton didn't pass him, so he braked more. and verstappen gets a penalty for trying to do what the fia told him to?
i wonder if they will give russel a penalty because mazepin crashed into him.

there should be some rule that if you are given the chance to overtaken, and you refuse to do so, you loose the place.

Yes but I don't think Lewis had been told Max had been ordered to give the place back which would also have played a major parr in what happened.

Lewis should have been informed of what was going to happen quicker and Max shouldn't braked so hard or at least given him more space to pass but IMO it wasn't Lewis's fault at all.

[airshifter]

What are everyones thoughts on the track for F1?

Some drivers loved it, others less so, its fast and offers a different challenge from most others but clearly can bite as we expected and witnessed. no run offs, potentially dangerous.


Should it be on the Calender next year?

For the most part it's crap IMHO. Very similar to Qatar in the sense it seems challenging to drive but this one is even faster. Neither really have much of anything for passing opportunity except the long straights.... and DRS passes are boring usually. It's really a shame too, because I think this track had great potential and if you ignore the lack of racing line options it appears stunning.

The number of red flags, safety cars, and VSCs will only probably increase if the field tightens up.

Personally I'd be glad if this track, Qatar, and Monaco all disappear from the calendar. Maybe Baku as well. While qualification is a big part of racing it shouldn't often mean the majority of the weekend. I want the ability for cars to pass and race on track, and too many tracks don't allow that these days.

[denkimi]

Yes but I don't think Lewis had been told Max had been ordered to give the place back which would also have played a major parr in what happened.

Lewis should have been informed of what was going to happen quicker and Max shouldn't braked so hard or at least given him more space to pass but IMO it wasn't Lewis's fault at all.
I feel the biggest one at fault here is mercedes for not informing hamilton on time.

if you look at the footage, verstappen has already slowed down from 8th to 3th gear before he even started braking. Hamilton was already down from 8th to 5th. After that verstappen braked at about 50%.
So it wasn't like verstappen breaked suddenly or actually hard, it was just hamilton staying right behind because he didn't want to overtake, because he wasn't aware.

I feel it was stupid from max not to move more to the side, but in the end i stay with race incident.

[Nitrodaze]

Here , let me toss another log on the fire .

Max downshifted five times just before Lewis hit him . He likely didn't brake at all there .


Back to that first "Mick" incident .
I believe one TecPro block was pierced , and thus , it's integrity compromised . Since it was a popular spot to park , it needed fixing .
That's not Masi's fault .
Blame Tilke and his son for this stupid track .

Engine braking is considered braking. The tecpro barrier was not dangerous enough to need replacing. It was shuffled back into position which they could have done under safety car conditions

[Nitrodaze]

Yep, I'm mostly in the same camp... although I can also understand why some see it as too dangerous, and too unforgiving.

The danger of Jeddah is characteristic of street circuits in general. They all have lots of blind corners, hard unforgiving walls or amco barriers and multiple crashes. Until the drivers fully understand the characteristics of this track there would be crashes. I have a feeling there would be fewer crashes next season. As the drivers would learn to respect this track better.

[truefan72]

10 second timed penalty and 2 penalty points for Max. Basically have let him get away with brake testing Lewis, which they clearly show in their decision that he did.

https://twitter.com/rachelbrookestv/status/1467625114560708608?s=21

a coward's decision
so brake testing your opponent that causes significant damage to the car is simply a 10sec penalty. ok got it! smh

[denkimi]

The danger of Jeddah is characteristic of street circuits in general. They all have lots of blind corners, hard unforgiving walls or amco barriers and multiple crashes. Until the drivers fully understand the characteristics of this track there would be crashes. I have a feeling there would be fewer crashes next season. As the drivers would learn to respect this track better.
But despite them calling it that way, jeddah is no street circuit. It was designed from a cleen sheat, not being restricted by existing infrastructure. There was no reason to make it this narrow and blind or to put the barriers this close, unlike real street tracks like baku or monaco.

They deliberately designed it to be this dangerous and awfull. Another hideous tilke design.

[The Black Knight]

a coward's decision
so brake testing your opponent that causes significant damage to the car is simply a 10sec penalty. ok got it! smh

It's ridiculous. They actually admit in the notes that he braked erratically - a sudden 2.4g deceleration. I can't see how this is anything other than an attempt to take your opponent out. This should be an automatic disqualification. This type of dangerous, potentially lethal driving, does not belong in F1.

[Fortitude]

FORMULA 1 STC SAUDI ARABIAN GRAND PRIX 2021 - RACE RESULT
03 05 Dec 2021 Jeddah Corniche Circuit, Jeddah

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1106/saudi-arabia/race-result.html


After Max’s penalty, ‘it was not worth fighting anymore’
Date published: December 6 2021 - Michelle Foster

Penalised in Saudi Arabia for what in Brazil went unpunished, Max Verstappen says he gave up on the win after being told of his five-second penalty.

Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton put on a thriller at the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix, the title protagonists racing wheel-to-wheel no fewer than three times.

One of those battles, on lap 37, saw Hamilton get a run on the Red Bull driver, using DRS to attempt a pass around the outside at Turn 1.

Verstappen defended with both drivers off the track, and the Dutchman holding onto P1, similar to what happened at Turn 4 at the Sao Paulo Grand Prix.

This time, though, the championship leader was given a five-second penalty for for leaving the track and gaining advantage.

“When they told me that I had the five-second penalty, it was not worth fighting anymore because I would never pull a gap of five seconds,” Verstappen said.

“So yes, a lot of action, a lot of things that happened.

“I think ultimately, we didn’t really have perfect pace in the race, maybe also the medium tyres were not amazing to the end. I think the hard tyres [of Hamilton] had a bit more life in them I think, but as always, it’s easy to say afterwards.

“At the end, that five-second penalty I don’t think is correct but at the end of the day I don’t want to talk about it that much because they don’t deserve any words coming out of my mouth.
“I find it interesting that I am the one who gets a penalty when both of us ran out of the white lines.

“In Brazil it was fine but suddenly I get a penalty for it; you could see both of us didn’t make the corner. But it’s fine, I also don’t really spend too much time on it. We have to move forward.”
Told to give the position back to Hamilton after that lap 37 moment, Verstappen slowed only for Hamilton to also slow down and stay behind him.

The Dutchman then braked, and Hamilton drove into the back of him ripping off the right-side of his front wing.

“They told me to give the position back,” Verstappen explained, “and so immediately when I heard that on the radio I just pulled off to the right, showing that I was going to move over, and I braked, downshifted, and he just stayed behind me.

“So I was just looking in the mirror and I’m slowing down and I think there was a bit of a miscommunication and he ran into the back of me.”

Verstappen was given a post-race 10-second time penalty for erratic driving.
Hamilton won the grand prix and took the fastest lap point with Verstappen P2 despite his time penalties.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-verstappen-saudi-arabian-penalties/

[Nitrodaze]

It's ridiculous. They actually admit in the notes that he braked erratically - a sudden 2.4g deceleration. I can't see how this is anything other than an attempt to take your opponent out. This should be an automatic disqualification. This type of dangerous, potentially lethal driving, does not belong in F1.

Verstappen drove this race like he was let out of an asylum. He got away with so many infractions, the stewards did not deal each them as they would normally. So he is encouraged to drive putting other drivers at risk. He overtook off the track, ran Hamilton off the track and brake tested him. If any other driver had done all of these things in one race, they would have been shown the warning flag and subsequently the black flag. All the decisions taken by the steward's office were calculated to have as little impact on him[Versdtappen] as possible.

I remain adamant that they are on the take. The negotiation of penalty to give Verstappen between Masi and Horner is a very clear indication of that. Rather than apply the rules they invested more time in trying to find a penalty that was acceptable to Redbull.

[The Black Knight]

Yep. Good for those of us that wait for facts rather than speculation.

It still makes no sense though unless Max thought he would just come through. Why risk the collision when it's possible that you could be the one that comes out on the worst end?

Most of the time we have seen incidents like this in the past it has been the following driver that runs into the back of the car in front that comes out worse. Luckily it didn't end up ala Coulthard-Schumacher 1998. It would have been a shame for the championship to finish that way. Spa 1998 was brain fade from Coulthard, last night I think was intentional from Max as he could clearly see how close Lewis was in his mirrors. Unfortunately because this is now just a slap on the wrist for Verstappen I think he won't learn anything and he could possibly try to take Lewis out next weekend in Abu Dhabi. He still has the advantage of more wins. At minimum he should have received a 10 place grid drop for AD but I think disqualification from this race would have been the most appropriate action.


So he did brake.. fair enough. In that case Max is guilty as charged. If he was going to brake to try and make Lewis pass before the DRS line he should have been fully over to the right IMO.

Agreed.

[The Black Knight]

Verstappen drove this race like he was let out of an asylum. He got away with so many infractions, the stewards did not deal each them as they would normally. So he is encouraged to drive putting other drivers at risk. He overtook off the track, ran Hamilton off the track and brake tested him. If any other driver had done all of these things in one race, they would have been shown the warning flag and subsequently the black flag. All the decisions taken by the steward's office were calculated to have as little impact on him[Versdtappen] as possible.

I remain adamant that they are on the take. The negotiation of penalty to give Verstappen between Masi and Horner is a very clear indication of that. Rather than apply the rules they invested more time in trying to find a penalty that was acceptable to Redbull.

Imagine a referee negotiating with a competitor. This is effectively what happened last night. I think it must be a requirement moving forward that any incidents like this ALL get investigated and decided by the Stewards. Have multiple Steward teams if necessary per race and delegated different incidents to them. There doesn't just have to be one. Utter nonsense negotiating with them like that.

[F1nKS]

actually, there were lots of great wheel to wheel crashing at this race.

fify,

[Nitrodaze]

fify,

We had doubts at Baku, what great races, that venue produced. We would warm to Jeddah in time. It is different, quirky and nerve-wracking. But pure adrenaline racing

[Bagwan]

I feel the biggest one at fault here is mercedes for not informing hamilton on time.

if you look at the footage, verstappen has already slowed down from 8th to 3th gear before he even started braking. Hamilton was already down from 8th to 5th. After that verstappen braked at about 50%.
So it wasn't like verstappen breaked suddenly or actually hard, it was just hamilton staying right behind because he didn't want to overtake, because he wasn't aware.

I feel it was stupid from max not to move more to the side, but in the end i stay with race incident.

I had mentioned that Max had geared down 5 times , but I hadn't seen that Lewis was gearing down as well , so can we then surmise that Hamilton actually knew what Max was doing ?
He actually knew Max was slowing down to let him by , which is not what he implied when he said he didn't get the message from the team until after the incident .

He may not have had official word from the team , but it seems like he was wise to the gambit Max was trying to work as he was also gearing down to more match Max's speed .

Both drivers were aware , clearly , that the first to cross the DRS line was at a distinct disadvantage . Both were slowing .
Max was not obligated to be on one side or other of the track , so chose the cleanest line and stayed there , leaving his opponent the least advantage he could .

Lewis approached , saw Max slowing , and slowed down , himself , and closed up tight .
Now , he wouldn't have known Max would press the whoa pedal , but he really didn't need to be directly behind him or that close , especially if he already suspected Max and he were in a race to slow down before the line .

As for Max , touching the brakes was over the line . Not cool .

Until that point in that incident , blame the stupid DRS , with it's stupid DRS line for prompting the drivers to be stupid .

[Nitrodaze]

I had mentioned that Max had geared down 5 times , but I hadn't seen that Lewis was gearing down as well , so can we then surmise that Hamilton actually knew what Max was doing ?
He actually knew Max was slowing down to let him by , which is not what he implied when he said he didn't get the message from the team until after the incident .

He may not have had official word from the team , but it seems like he was wise to the gambit Max was trying to work as he was also gearing down to more match Max's speed .

Both drivers were aware , clearly , that the first to cross the DRS line was at a distinct disadvantage . Both were slowing .
Max was not obligated to be on one side or other of the track , so chose the cleanest line and stayed there , leaving his opponent the least advantage he could .

Lewis approached , saw Max slowing , and slowed down , himself , and closed up tight .
Now , he wouldn't have known Max would press the whoa pedal , but he really didn't need to be directly behind him or that close , especially if he already suspected Max and he were in a race to slow down before the line .

As for Max , touching the brakes was over the line . Not cool .

Until that point in that incident, blame the stupid DRS , with it's stupid DRS line for prompting the drivers to be stupid .

It was established that the information that Verstappen was asked to give the place back to Hamilton had not reached Hamilton at the point when Verstappen was slowing down. Hence, he would not have known why Verstappen was slowing down. There might be a debris on the track for instance.

The slowing down was not the issue, it was the sudden braking that immediately followed that caused Hamilton to crash into the back of him. The braking was clear in the relative telemetry and the reason why he was found to be at fault.

[Nitrodaze]

We have criticized Verstappen for some things. What we have not done is praise him for some of the great driving that he did during the race. He move to take the lead from 3rd at the restart after the Mazpin, Perez crashes, was brilliant. That was the sort of move that we typically praise Hamilton for. But the seven-time champion was comprehensively made to look ordinary off the start.

[Zico]

I had mentioned that Max had geared down 5 times , but I hadn't seen that Lewis was gearing down as well , so can we then surmise that Hamilton actually knew what Max was doing ?
He actually knew Max was slowing down to let him by , which is not what he implied when he said he didn't get the message from the team until after the incident .

He may not have had official word from the team , but it seems like he was wise to the gambit Max was trying to work as he was also gearing down to more match Max's speed .

Both drivers were aware , clearly , that the first to cross the DRS line was at a distinct disadvantage . Both were slowing .
Max was not obligated to be on one side or other of the track , so chose the cleanest line and stayed there , leaving his opponent the least advantage he could .

Lewis approached , saw Max slowing , and slowed down , himself , and closed up tight .
Now , he wouldn't have known Max would press the whoa pedal , but he really didn't need to be directly behind him or that close , especially if he already suspected Max and he were in a race to slow down before the line .

As for Max , touching the brakes was over the line . Not cool .

Until that point in that incident , blame the stupid DRS , with it's stupid DRS line for prompting the drivers to be stupid .

Spot on.

For me, both knew exactly what game they were both playing. Ultimately Max just messed up when trying to force Lewis to pass..

Despite what Lewis said publicly about not being told what was to happen, there can be little doubt that he knew Max would be told to give the place back, he isn't stupid.. he has a sharp racing brain. While I might not be buying his official explanation for a sec, neither am I blaming him for it.

Having to play silly DRS advantage games shouldn't be part of F1 but it is pretty much inevitable due to its mere existence.
Deactivating the DRS for both drivers for a lap in such a situation might be an idea worth looking into.

[N. Jones]

Not necessarily so. The Redbull was just as quick as the Mercedes on a track where most of us thought Mercedes would romp off into the distance leaving Verstappen in their wake. If was not so. Verstappen was just as quick as Hamilton for all of the race. Verstappen had a very untidy race this weekend. He obviously is trying too hard and making desperate moves. Abu Dhabi is a more even track and we shall see Redbull very strong there too. If they want to beat the mighty Mercedes, they have to operate a meticulous race. They have the speed to cause an upset. But they cannot expect it to easily lamnd on their laps. They have to do better than they did at Jeddah

I know but I think Lewis is going to take it.

[N. Jones]

What are everyones thoughts on the track for F1?

Some drivers loved it, others less so, its fast and offers a different challenge from most others but clearly can bite as we expected and witnessed. no run offs, potentially dangerous.


Should it be on the Calender next year?

That track sucks.
No.

[Bagwan]

It was established that the information that Verstappen was asked to give the place back to Hamilton had not reached Hamilton at the point when Verstappen was slowing down. Hence, he would not have known why Verstappen was slowing down. There might be a debris on the track for instance.

The slowing down was not the issue, it was the sudden braking that immediately followed that caused Hamilton to crash into the back of him. The braking was clear in the relative telemetry and the reason why he was found to be at fault.

Oh , gimme a break , dude .
He knew what Max was doing . He dropped 3 gears , when both of them should have been racing , instead of playing "silly-beggar" .

He drove right up behind him , so what do you think his message to Max was at that moment ?
He was telling Max he wasn't going to pass before that detection line .
He knew Max's game by then and being so tight that even he , a guy with the reflexes of an adrenaline-soaked cat , couldn't avoid a rapidly slowing car ahead just wasn't smart .

They were racing to slow down , and the guy behind is always going to hit the guy ahead in that scenario .

It was a ludicrous moment for F1 .

Max , for sure , should not have hit the brakes .
But , his instruction was to slow down and Let Lewis by .

Lewis should not have been that close behind , but was told that Max would let him by , not that he must pass .

So , you see , a stupid situation set up by stupid DRS rules .

[Nitrodaze]

Oh , gimme a break , dude .
He knew what Max was doing . He dropped 3 gears , when both of them should have been racing , instead of playing "silly-beggar" .

He drove right up behind him , so what do you think his message to Max was at that moment ?
He was telling Max he wasn't going to pass before that detection line .
He knew Max's game by then and being so tight that even he , a guy with the reflexes of an adrenaline-soaked cat , couldn't avoid a rapidly slowing car ahead just wasn't smart .

They were racing to slow down , and the guy behind is always going to hit the guy ahead in that scenario .

It was a ludicrous moment for F1 .

Max , for sure , should not have hit the brakes .
But , his instruction was to slow down and Let Lewis by .

Lewis should not have been that close behind , but was told that Max would let him by , not that he must pass .

So , you see , a stupid situation set up by stupid DRS rules .

true, Hamilton was trying to use the slipstream to slingshot pass Verstappen, just as Verstappen realized that the DRS detection point was fast approaching and needed to slow down. They were both playing games

[The Black Knight]

That track sucks.
No.
I disagree- I think it's a great track. A bit clumsy in places but great to see the drivers having to push like that. Skill and bravery came to the fore.

[Bagwan]

That track sucks.
No.

The track workers suck , too , if I may say so .

When the head guy , Masi , has to be out there pointing out the oil on the track , then has to direct them to put down the stay-dry , and then has to direct them in the direction that they should be pushing the broom , you know that nobody is trained nearly enough .

He had to be on the scene everywhere to keep things together .

The Saudi organization was far from ready .
Nice light show , though .


I heard the fact stated during the telecast that it has been deemed the fastest "street-style" track in the world .
To me , that explained a lot .
A good advertising slogan is worth more than having a safe track , or a track where you can pass without DRS , or any remote chance of making it through the race without multiple safety cars and/or multiple lengthy red flag periods .

[Bagwan]

true, Hamilton was trying to use the slipstream to slingshot pass Verstappen, just as Verstappen realized that the DRS detection point was fast approaching and needed to slow down. They were both playing games

He was slowing , too .
Lewis was absolutely not looking for a slipstream .

Yes , they were both playing games .

[denkimi]

true, Hamilton was trying to use the slipstream to slingshot pass Verstappen, just as Verstappen realized that the DRS detection point was fast approaching and needed to slow down. They were both playing games
If Hamilton had just kept his foot down, max would have never got past him at the end of the straight, even with drs.

But that's always easy to tell in retrospective. I understand why lewis didn't wanted to pass and stay as close as possible.

[joe1888cfc]

Should do away with DRS on the final lap, was unfair on ocon

[denkimi]

Should do away with DRS on the final lap, was unfair on ocon
Even with drs, bottas shouldn't be able to overtake before the finnish.

Something must have happened in the corner before, but i can't seem to find a video.

[Nitrodaze]

If Hamilton had just kept his foot down, max would have never got past him at the end of the straight, even with drs.

But that's always easy to tell in retrospective. I understand why lewis didn't wanted to pass and stay as close as possible.

I think Hamilton suspected that Verstappen was up to something that could be bad for him if he pass. He knew he had to take precautions not to get into a race-ending crash. His hesitance was partly due to that and probably the DRS detection point as well.

Verstappen was driving in a very unusual way in front. He initially appeared to give way, then he moved into the centre of the track and slowed momentarily and sped up momentarily and slowed again then hit the breaks hard. Then after the crash, he sped off into the distance not giving up the place until he arrived at the next DRS detection point where he gave up the place properly just before the DRS detection point and immediately used DRS to reclaim the lead. Unfortunately for him, once he had used up the DRS, he did not have the speed to keep Hamilton behind on the following straight.

[Nitrodaze]

Should do away with DRS on the final lap, was unfair on ocon

Ocon was very deserving of the third step on the podium more than Bottas did, I thought. Bottas did his bare minimum for Mercedes this season. Hamilton praised him as his best teammate. I don't know why he did, because his contribution was not half-decent to what an effective teammate would do. When you think of what Barichello and Irvine did for Schumacher. Or Massa for Raikonnen. Hamiton had to carry most of the weight of the team in the constructors and had to rely on himself in the driver's championship. Much like Verstappen had to do for Redbull and himself.

Both nos 2 drivers in both teams did a substandard job for their teams, with Bottas doing a slightly better job than Perez.

If Bottas had done a half-decent job at Jeddah, he should be very closely following the front two ready to pick up any opportunity that presents itself if any of the front two mess up. He should have finished the race in 2nd following Verstappen's 15-second penalty. fifteen seconds is such an eternity in F1 terms which highlights what a crap race Bottas did at Jeddah. If anything, he demonstrates how right Mercedes were for jettisoning him from the team for George Russell.

[Bagwan]

Hmmm .
Where was that "spice" they've been talking about ?

Too bad Max tagged the wall there , as Lewis was hoping to heroically overtake him to steal the points away in the last laps of the race , miraculously leaving the two gallant racers tied going to the final race of the season , a truly epic finale .

Maybe there's a way to employ the "magic" button again , to get Max ahead for a while .

Hmmm .
That was spicy .

A quick stop got Max ahead to set up the epic finish , but it got a bit scary there at the DRS line .
The game seemed a bit pointless for Lewis to become involved in , rather than just speed by as Max was obviously going really slowly .

It's pretty obvious , even to me , that Merc has more speed now for some reason .
I guess staying behind him could help imply that Max had any chance at all of re-passing Lewis .

But , I don't think we've seen Merc pull the magic pin that lets the pedal go all the way to the floor yet .
I'm not so sure they will have to .



Epic finale on the way .

[truefan72]

Verstappen drove this race like he was let out of an asylum. He got away with so many infractions, the stewards did not deal each them as they would normally. So he is encouraged to drive putting other drivers at risk. He overtook off the track, ran Hamilton off the track and brake tested him. If any other driver had done all of these things in one race, they would have been shown the warning flag and subsequently the black flag. All the decisions taken by the steward's office were calculated to have as little impact on him[Versdtappen] as possible.

I remain adamant that they are on the take. The negotiation of penalty to give Verstappen between Masi and Horner is a very clear indication of that. Rather than apply the rules they invested more time in trying to find a penalty that was acceptable to Redbull.

And to make matters worse, both he and marko post race were moaning about not being treated fairly etc.
As you said, back in the day, all his incidents combined would have been a potential black flag.
If we remember, Grosjean was given a race ban ( and probably should have gotten one for his ridiculous Catalunya 360 move as well in 2020), and that was for cumulative incidents including Spa of that year.
RBR and Verstappen in particular has gotten away with way too much without any kind of of proper ramifications.
Masi and the stewards are incompetent, complicit and/or working of the premise of "not interfering with the championship" which is simply wrong, and against their own regulations and rules.

The thing that scares me most is that Max is eventually gonna do something that will put another driver in serious harm. He has not learned or grown or shown any kind of respect for other drivers.
I am actually not looking forward to Abu Dhabi because I reckon he is about to do something incredibly dangerous or stupid in his desperation.

[The Black Knight]

And to make matters worse, both he and marko post race were moaning about not being treated fairly etc.
As you said, back in the day, all his incidents combined would have been a potential black flag.
If we remember, Grosjean was given a race ban ( and probably should have gotten one for his ridiculous Catalunya 360 move as well in 2020), and that was for cumulative incidents including Spa of that year.
RBR and Verstappen in particular has gotten away with way too much without any kind of of proper ramifications.
Masi and the stewards are incompetent, complicit and/or working of the premise of "not interfering with the championship" which is simply wrong, and against their own regulations and rules.

The thing that scares me most is that Max is eventually gonna do something that will put another driver in serious harm. He has not learned or grown or shown any kind of respect for other drivers.
I am actually not looking forward to Abu Dhabi because I reckon he is about to do something incredibly dangerous or stupid in his desperation.

I fear the same. As talented as he is, he is so dumb I would not be surprised if he takes out Lewis and has the title taken off him afterwards. I hope AD is a straight fight between the two but given what we saw last weekend I can see him taking Lewis out.

[Firstgear]

I agree. He's got no respect for the sport. He's as dumb as MS was.

[airshifter]

Oh , gimme a break , dude .
He knew what Max was doing . He dropped 3 gears , when both of them should have been racing , instead of playing "silly-beggar" .

He drove right up behind him , so what do you think his message to Max was at that moment ?
He was telling Max he wasn't going to pass before that detection line .
He knew Max's game by then and being so tight that even he , a guy with the reflexes of an adrenaline-soaked cat , couldn't avoid a rapidly slowing car ahead just wasn't smart .

They were racing to slow down , and the guy behind is always going to hit the guy ahead in that scenario .

It was a ludicrous moment for F1 .

Max , for sure , should not have hit the brakes .
But , his instruction was to slow down and Let Lewis by .

Lewis should not have been that close behind , but was told that Max would let him by , not that he must pass .

So , you see , a stupid situation set up by stupid DRS rules .

Overall I'd agree. If the DRS situation wasn't in play, none of this would have likely happened. Despite what was claimed, I think Lewis was playing the game just as hard, and though the brake check wasn't a legal move, it wasn't wise to tuck in right behind and play the game either. I'm sure the stewards looks at both the drivers telemetry in their decision, and finding one predominantly at fault doesn't mean the other did no wrong.

They had already scrubbed off a lot of speed playing cat and mouse, and neither wanted to be the first over the DRS line.

[Nitrodaze]

Overall I'd agree. If the DRS situation wasn't in play, none of this would have likely happened. Despite what was claimed, I think Lewis was playing the game just as hard, and though the brake check wasn't a legal move, it wasn't wise to tuck in right behind and play the game either. I'm sure the stewards looks at both the drivers telemetry in their decision, and finding one predominantly at fault doesn't mean the other did no wrong.

They had already scrubbed off a lot of speed playing cat and mouse, and neither wanted to be the first over the DRS line.

I think any driver on the grid would have done exactly what Hamilton did. He was trying to harness the slipstream from Verstappen in order to overtake. That is the standards racing technique. Hamilton wanted Verstappen to drive on fast enough to provide the slipstream, Verstappen wanted Hamilton to pass on the dirty side of the track before the DRS line so that he can receive DRS in order to allow him to overtake Hamilton. They both had a card up their sleeves, but Verstappen got frustrated when Hamilton did not overtake and applied the brakes in anger it seemed. This is where he became a culprit for a penalty.

Though l initially thought he wanted to take out Hamilton, l believe that was not the case. He simply lost his cool.

[Zico]

I think any driver on the grid would have done exactly what Hamilton did. He was trying to harness the slipstream from Verstappen in order to overtake. That is the standards racing technique. Hamilton wanted Verstappen to drive on fast enough to provide the slipstream, Verstappen wanted Hamilton to pass on the dirty side of the track before the DRS line so that he can receive DRS in order to allow him to overtake Hamilton. They both had a card up their sleeves, but Verstappen got frustrated when Hamilton did not overtake and applied the brakes in anger it seemed. This is where he became a culprit for a penalty.

Though l initially thought he wanted to take out Hamilton, l believe that was not the case. He simply lost his cool.


With them going into a braking zone/corner your slipstream theory doesn't really stack up. There would be far more to be gained from a high speed differential of passing him quickly. Max might have left a cars width but he made it tight to avoid that happening too.

Agreed on all other points though.

[denkimi]

I think any driver on the grid would have done exactly what Hamilton did. He was trying to harness the slipstream from Verstappen in order to overtake. That is the standards racing technique. Hamilton wanted Verstappen to drive on fast enough to provide the slipstream, Verstappen wanted Hamilton to pass on the dirty side of the track before the DRS line so that he can receive DRS in order to allow him to overtake Hamilton. They both had a card up their sleeves, but Verstappen got frustrated when Hamilton did not overtake and applied the brakes in anger it seemed. This is where he became a culprit for a penalty.

Though l initially thought he wanted to take out Hamilton, l believe that was not the case. He simply lost his cool.
While i agree that other may have done the same thing, slowing down shifting down 3 gears clearly shows the only thing he was trying to do at that moment was stay behind verstappen till after the DRS line.

Remember, verstappen was obliged to let hamilton pass. It was hamilton refusing to pass and extremely close behind who created the dangerous circumstance in the first place.

As i said before, the should be a rule that if you are given the chance to pass and you refuse to do so, you lose that chance.

[Bagwan]

I think any driver on the grid would have done exactly what Hamilton did. He was trying to harness the slipstream from Verstappen in order to overtake. That is the standards racing technique. Hamilton wanted Verstappen to drive on fast enough to provide the slipstream, Verstappen wanted Hamilton to pass on the dirty side of the track before the DRS line so that he can receive DRS in order to allow him to overtake Hamilton. They both had a card up their sleeves, but Verstappen got frustrated when Hamilton did not overtake and applied the brakes in anger it seemed. This is where he became a culprit for a penalty.

Though l initially thought he wanted to take out Hamilton, l believe that was not the case. He simply lost his cool.

Having seen some of the telemetry from both cars , it seems that , at the very same time that Max applied those brakes , Lewis was on the gas .

To me , that implies that Lewis , in the moment had decided to pass Max , rather than stay behind .
What appeared to be "cat-like" reflexes , may have just been an already decided upon move .

In that fateful moment , it seems that Max was frustrated Lewis wouldn't pass and braked , not knowing exactly how close Lewis was .
And , Lewis , frustrated that Max slowing down , decided to exit the game a fraction of that moment too late .

[Nitrodaze]

With them going into a braking zone/corner your slipstream theory doesn't really stack up. There would be far more to be gained from a high speed differential of passing him quickly. Max might have left a cars width but he made it tight to avoid that happening too.

Agreed on all other points though.

But that was the point, to slipstream into the corner ahead and force Verstappen to either stay behind at the apex or squeeze him onto the kerbs. Either way, he may have got ahead. He used that technique twice during the race.

[Nitrodaze]

While i agree that other may have done the same thing, slowing down shifting down 3 gears clearly shows the only thing he was trying to do at that moment was stay behind verstappen till after the DRS line.

Remember, verstappen was obliged to let hamilton pass. It was hamilton refusing to pass and extremely close behind who created the dangerous circumstance in the first place.

As i said before, the should be a rule that if you are given the chance to pass and you refuse to do so, you lose that chance.

You forget Hamilton had no idea what Verstappen was doing. He did not receive the information of Verstappen giving up the lead until the instant after the crash. There is no way he would have known what Vewrstappen was thinking. He did what he felt was the cautious thing to do, l felt.

But one thing remains clear, both men wanted to benefit from the situation somehow. I can see how a slipstream after that DRS line would be greatly beneficial for Hamilton. One scenario is that he may have used the slipstream to pass Verstappen at the corner. And use the DRS to put some distance between himself and Verstappen on the straight after the corner. So you can see why Vderstappen was frustrated that he has been caught in a potentially tricky situation. His only real way out was to force Hamilton to overtake before the DRS line so that he can have the DRS for himself. the frustration developed into anger as the DRS got ever so closer and he was running out of options.

So he jumped on the brake with the hope of either forcing Hamilton to pass or disrupting him in such a way as to give him a chance to get out of the tricky situiation.

[denkimi]

You forget Hamilton had no idea what Verstappen was doing. He did not receive the information of Verstappen giving up the lead until the instant after the crash. There is no way he would have known what Vewrstappen was thinking. He did what he felt was the cautious thing to do, l felt.

Well, he slowed down 3 gears and kept it right under verstappens rear wing. I can think of any reason to do that except for trying to stay behind untill they passed the drs line.

Even though hamilton might have not been informed by radio, he must have had a pretty good idea of what was happening. He might not have expected verstappen to be stupid enough to actually brake, but he must have known verstappen would have to let him pass at some point. And he must have known verstappen would most likely try to do that near some drs line.



But one thing remains clear, both men wanted to benefit from the situation somehow. I can see how a slipstream after that DRS line would be greatly beneficial for Hamilton. One scenario is that he may have used the slipstream to pass Verstappen at the corner. And use the DRS to put some distance between himself and Verstappen on the straight after the corner. So you can see why Vderstappen was frustrated that he has been caught in a potentially tricky situation. His only real way out was to force Hamilton to overtake before the DRS line so that he can have the DRS for himself. the frustration developed into anger as the DRS got ever so closer and he was running out of options.

So he jumped on the brake with the hope of either forcing Hamilton to pass or disrupting him in such a way as to give him a chance to get out of the tricky situiation.
that seems pretty clear, no?
verstappen wanted hamilton to pas him before the line so he would get drs, and hamilton didn't want to pas before the line to get drs. max was indeed frustrated, got stupid and braked. but hamilton was equally careless by staying this close so he had no time to react.

but that caused a situation where both were driving very slowly where they should have been flatout, which creates a dangerous situation, especially at a blind track like jeddah. i feel there needs to be some rule to regulate this kind of overtakes, to avoid such situations.

[Zico]

But that was the point, to slipstream into the corner ahead and force Verstappen to either stay behind at the apex or squeeze him onto the kerbs. Either way, he may have got ahead. He used that technique twice during the race.

They were both going far too slow for the slipstream to have even been a thought for Lewis.. and besides, there is nothing to gain from a slipstream in the braking zone, in fact ideally you want maximum aero not a disturbed wake.

I think you must mean pass him with as high a speed differential as possible to stop him staying close through the corner and onto the straight.... with DRS.

[gm99]

You forget Hamilton had no idea what Verstappen was doing. He did not receive the information of Verstappen giving up the lead until the instant after the crash. There is no way he would have known what Vewrstappen was thinking. He did what he felt was the cautious thing to do, l felt.


Lewis is not an idiot. He saw Max go off and gain an unfair advantage, he knows you're supposed to give the position back in those circumstances, then he sees Max slowing down on the back straight. What else would Verstappen have been doing - snapping pictures for his Instragram account? Lewis just didn't want to go past Max at this point because - again being no idiot - he knew fully well he would be repassed owing to the DRS zone that was coming up (as was proven to be the case when Verstappen finally did let him pass a few laps later).

[Nitrodaze]

Well, he slowed down 3 gears and kept it right under verstappens rear wing. I can think of any reason to do that except for trying to stay behind untill they passed the drs line.

Even though hamilton might have not been informed by radio, he must have had a pretty good idea of what was happening. He might not have expected verstappen to be stupid enough to actually brake, but he must have known verstappen would have to let him pass at some point. And he must have known verstappen would most likely try to do that near some drs line.


that seems pretty clear, no?
verstappen wanted hamilton to pas him before the line so he would get drs, and hamilton didn't want to pas before the line to get drs. max was indeed frustrated, got stupid and braked. but hamilton was equally careless by staying this close so he had no time to react.

but that caused a situation where both were driving very slowly where they should have been flatout, which creates a dangerous situation, especially at a blind track like jeddah. i feel there needs to be some rule to regulate this kind of overtakes, to avoid such situations.

I don't see your point. Hamilton would have expected Verstappen to give the place back just after the corner if he intended to do so. when he didn't, it was natural to expect that they are still racing until it is decided by the stewards. Verstappen suddenly slowing close to the DRS line of course would freak Hamilton out. Any driver in their right mind knowing how Verstappen go about racing would approach cautiously as well. You are asking Hamilton to be stupid in the circumstances as it is your expectation. He was entitled to stay behind, he has no obligation to overtake. So l don't get your argument at all.

[Nitrodaze]

Lewis is not an idiot. He saw Max go off and gain an unfair advantage, he knows you're supposed to give the position back in those circumstances, then he sees Max slowing down on the back straight. What else would Verstappen have been doing - snapping pictures for his Instragram account? Lewis just didn't want to go past Max at this point because - again being no idiot - he knew fully well he would be repassed owing to the DRS zone that was coming up (as was proven to be the case when Verstappen finally did let him pass a few laps later).

My point exactly. The second time around, Hamilton passed because he probably felt safe to pass without any potential for collision during the pass. I doubt he would have been worried too much about Verstappen retaking the lead with DRS. He knew, he had the pace to reclaim the lead later on. Though l admit, he would have preferred to do pass once and be done with it

[Nitrodaze]

Check out this interesting podcast about the Jeddah race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHdCONQep4k