2021 - Race 19 Brazil

[F1nKS]

Now the 2nd race of the tripleheader. Nobody has time to catch their breath - we move on to the next race.

[Nitrodaze]

I hope the sprint race is on a wet day but a dry day for the actual race to mix things up.

[F1nKS]

Winners and Losers of 2nd half of the season

Winners (1st half in parenthesis)

Verstappen - 1.3 (3.9)
Gasley - 6.6 (8.5)
Russell - 11.9 (13.1)

Losers (1st half in parenthesis)
Bottas - 6.4 (4.1)
Norris - 8.3 (4.5)
Perez - 7.3 (5.9)

[Bagwan]

Wait !
How can this be ?

Lewis , 4 tenths ahead ?
Isn't this a Red Bull track ?

What is going on ?

[Zico]

Wait !
How can this be ?

Lewis , 4 tenths ahead ?
Isn't this a Red Bull track ?

What is going on ?

New engine probably gives him a tenth or so but he'll have to pay for it on Sunday.

I'm not convinced that Merc are toying with them but a repeat of Silverstone is a very likely possibility at some point in the run in. Thats my prediction. :)

[F1nKS]

Wait !
How can this be ?

Lewis , 4 tenths ahead ?
Isn't this a Red Bull track ?

What is going on ?

Did it have anything to do with Lewis "DRS technical infringement" that he has been called to the stewards for?

[airshifter]

Did it have anything to do with Lewis "DRS technical infringement" that he has been called to the stewards for?

It's possible that a piece of sandbag got lodged in the system somehow.


The stewards should be meeting as I type this, I hope the system is legal because this would be a big blow to Merc. I'm hoping the title fight stays closer.

[F1nKS]

It's possible that a piece of sandbag got lodged in the system somehow.


The stewards should be meeting as I type this, I hope the system is legal because this would be a big blow to Merc. I'm hoping the title fight stays closer.

Decision delayed until tomorrow morning. Mercedes wanted time to produce additional evidence.

It seems pretty open and shut case - if his DRS was open wider than allowed then his laps times should be voided.

[F1nKS]

Max is under investigation for tampering with Hamilton's car (specifically his rear wing).

[airshifter]

The delays make it look like a clown show IMHO. Either the wing was legal or was not. If Max did touch the car it is either a violation or not. Either or both penalties should be decided within minutes really.

It makes it look like they are milking it for the publicity, or pondering who to punish how for the sake of the championship titles. There should already be precedents in place for either of the alleged violations.

AFAIK there is only the one video with Max "touching" the wing, and it's hard to tell if he does. Hard to say if any data streaming off the Merc might catch it, or the cameras. It looked to me like he was checking out the mirror or something in that area as well.

But I'm sure either way it will stir things up regardless of what is decided.

[Zico]

^ Agreed.

I don't think it would surprise me if they somehow make Max's penalty more severe of the two, in the interests of the circus show.

[joe1888cfc]

Wait !
How can this be ?
Cheating maybe?

Lewis , 4 tenths ahead ?
Isn't this a Red Bull track ?

What is going on ?
Cheating

[joe1888cfc]

^ Agreed.

I don't think it would surprise me if they somehow make Max's penalty more severe of the two, in the interests of the circus show.
This would be typical of the FIA

[Fortitude]

FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN GRANDE PRÊMIO DE SÃO PAULO 2021 - PRACTICE 1
12 14 Nov 2021 Autódromo José Carlos Pace, São Paulo

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1104/brazil/practice-1.html


FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN GRANDE PRÊMIO DE SÃO PAULO 2021 - QUALIFYING
12 14 Nov 2021 Autódromo José Carlos Pace, São Paulo

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1104/brazil/qualifying.html

[The Black Knight]

The delays make it look like a clown show IMHO. Either the wing was legal or was not. If Max did touch the car it is either a violation or not. Either or both penalties should be decided within minutes really.

It makes it look like they are milking it for the publicity, or pondering who to punish how for the sake of the championship titles. There should already be precedents in place for either of the alleged violations.

AFAIK there is only the one video with Max "touching" the wing, and it's hard to tell if he does. Hard to say if any data streaming off the Merc might catch it, or the cameras. It looked to me like he was checking out the mirror or something in that area as well.

But I'm sure either way it will stir things up regardless of what is decided.

Agreed. If it's an infringement it's an infringement but I really don't think touching the wing of a competitors car warrants a penalty.

Hamilton on the other hand should be automatically excluded from qualifying. There is precedent. It's a shame, I was really looking forward to the sprint race between the two but it's either legal or it isn't, there's no in between.

[The Black Knight]

Cheating

No I doubt it. It does explain why Bottas was suddenly so strong in qualifying recently. His spate of engine penalties have him that extra boost compared to Hamilton.

[truefan72]

Haha you guys are beyond biased. This is where this forum has jumped the shark. So let me get this straight. Hamiltons car was summoned to the stewards because there was a very minor infraction to his rear wing drs system that was off by millimeters in all likelihood because max Verstappen touched and probably tampered with his rear wing and then had his mechanic call for an investigation ( i mean who bloody touches the competitors rear wing in parc ferme like that???) with that new evidence max and the mechanic have been called into the stewards…and the general takeway from you lot is that max tampering with hamilton’s rear wing is ok, but hamilton should be banned for said rear wing infraction caused by verstappen? Ridiculous.
It is pointless to have any kind of discussion here anymore. A sad state for this forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zico]

Haha you guys are beyond biased. This is where this forum has jumped the shark. So let me get this straight. Hamiltons car was summoned to the stewards because there was a very minor infraction to his rear wing drs system that was off by millimeters in all likelihood because max Verstappen touched and probably tampered with his rear wing and then had his mechanic call for an investigation ( i mean who bloody touches the competitors rear wing in parc ferme like that???) with that new evidence max and the mechanic have been called into the stewards…and the general takeway from you lot is that max tampering with hamilton’s rear wing is ok, but hamilton should be banned for said rear wing infraction caused by verstappen? Ridiculous.
It is pointless to have any kind of discussion here anymore. A sad state for this forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So Max somehow adjusted his competitors rear wing that is designed to take huge aero forces just by touching it?

That's utterly riduculous, I think you just fully displayed your own bias

[airshifter]

Regardless of what has or hasn't been proven or disproven, it's obviously very messy behind the scenes as evidenced by the delay.

If there is absolute proof that Max touched the wing it might let Mercedes off the hook.


At this point the delays are unprofessional at best. No matter what they find they are casting doubt as to the process. While this is going on both Max and Lewis have no idea where they will be starting for the Sprint race. The head games have reached a new high, and at this point any decision will be controversial and disputed. At least everyone will have something to argue about for a while.

[denkimi]

Haha you guys are beyond biased. This is where this forum has jumped the shark. So let me get this straight. Hamiltons car was summoned to the stewards because there was a very minor infraction to his rear wing drs system that was off by millimeters in all likelihood because max Verstappen touched and probably tampered with his rear wing and then had his mechanic call for an investigation ( i mean who bloody touches the competitors rear wing in parc ferme like that???) with that new evidence max and the mechanic have been called into the stewards…and the general takeway from you lot is that max tampering with hamilton’s rear wing is ok, but hamilton should be banned for said rear wing infraction caused by verstappen? Ridiculous.
It is pointless to have any kind of discussion here anymore. A sad state for this forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nice bit of satire. lol

[F1nKS]

.

At this point the delays are unprofessional at best.

I don't know why a delay would be considered "unprofessional". Being unprofessional would be rushing into judgment and making a decision without all the facts and evidence. With what is at stake, they actually need to get this right and fair manner.

IMO, whether Lewis gets a penalty or not - should be based on whether Hamilton was getting an advantage. I assume part of the delay was Mercedes wanting to present evidence that whatever the magnitude of the violation, it would not provide him an advantage. Mercedes just needed time to get the data together.

Maybe even wanted to get Albon to do some test runs for them to show it wouldn't matter. :)

Option 2 is I guess that Mercedes might have seen Max touch Hamilton's car and wanted time to dig up video evidence and argue Max somehow mess up his DRS system. I think this is more far-fetched.

[F1nKS]

Max has been fined 50,000 and found he did not cause any damage. Stewards considered that as a mitigating factor


This general tendency has been seen as mostly harmless and so has not been uniformly policed.

But are warning if you violate this rule


The Stewards further note that it is intended that all teams and drivers take
notice that future breaches may incur different penalties from the Stewards of those
events

[F1nKS]

Stewards disqualify Hamilton.


Car 44 is disqualified from the results of qualifying (Art. 12.4.1 m of the FIA International Sporting Code)

[airshifter]

It looks like a disqualification for Lewis is inevitable at this point. They hammered Max fairly hard for something that has been done in the past unpunished.

I guess they are just getting ready for the riots when Lewis is disqualified from qualification. Obviously once they determine Max did no harm they know without doubt that the Mercedes just failed the technical regulation.

Some sources are reporting that video might have been taken from Alonso's car to prove that Max touched the Mercedes.


I'm glad they're going to great lengths to prove or disprove things but I still think this could have all been dealt with yesterday.


I'm sure the verbal battles will continue for a week or so.....

[airshifter]

Stewards disqualify Hamilton.

It looks like you beat me to the punch on that one while I was typing the one that follows.

My next step was to check for updates on what they did to Lewis and Mercedes. You saved me a couple steps!



Overall though it's really a shame that such a close championship is going to have something like this thrown into play right at the end of the season. The chances of Hamilton taking the title just reduced drastically. I'm sure some heads will roll at Mercedes.

[Tazio]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FEFt4MxXwAUE5zt?format=jpg&name=small

:sailor: Bam!!

[F1nKS]

Toto to Bottas: You need to be a little more aggressive in your breaking point this race.

Bottas: How aggressive?

Toto: 5 m after you make contact with Max car

[F1nKS]

It looks like you beat me to the punch on that one while I was typing the one that follows.

I was being a "refresh monkey" on the FIA decision website. I knew it had to be coming soon.

[denkimi]

very unfortunate for hamilton, but it seems the car was indeed illegal.

[Bagwan]

They had to get this right .

Max was an idiot for touching the car .
Even if the penalty is peanuts to him , the hassle will surely keep him , and likely all the others from ever being that stupid again .

If it was obvious that Max didn't do more than touch it , then Merc simply screwed up , unless they had some kind of break in the flap system .
There are a few bumps around the circuit which could cause complicated bits to bust .

How it happened is a bit irrelevant , though , as it is a clear measurement failure .


As I see it , it seems that this was not in the plan .
I'd check the branding on that testing rig with the force gauge to see if the makers name is Aesop Inc .

[airshifter]

Toto to Bottas: You need to be a little more aggressive in your breaking point this race.

Bottas: How aggressive?

Toto: 5 m after you make contact with Max car

No doubt they are hoping for miracles up front. If Max gets a poor start they might be able to hold him up for a little while.



I was being a "refresh monkey" on the FIA decision website. I knew it had to be coming soon.

Same here. I bounced over here to make my comments and apparently that's when the decision was released.



But it's not over until the fat lady sings. Even though the penalty will sting Lewis has made some monster drives from the back of the field. If they can keep the fight to less than 25 points they might still be in the hunt.

At this point we will see 100% full on Lewis attack mode through the Sprint race. I think it's their only hope and they will know that.

With the Sprint race in play it might more or less cancel the fact that Lewis has two penalties. He's come from the back of the grid before, and we will see if he can do it again.

[F1nKS]

But it's not over until the fat lady sings.

With 4 races (including Brazil) this is hardly over for Hamilton. It does make it a more uphill battle. Of course, he is lucky he has the sprint race this weekend as it will allow him a chance to dig out of his hole some.

But there is so much that can happen in 4 races that can flip the standing so quick. Let remember there is COVID still.

[joe1888cfc]

[QUOTE=truefan72;1286566]Haha you guys are beyond biased. This is where this forum has jumped the shark. So let me get this straight. Hamiltons car was summoned to the stewards because there was a very minor infraction to his rear wing drs system that was off by millimeters in all likelihood because max Verstappen touched and probably tampered with his rear wing and then had his mechanic call for an investigation ( i mean who bloody touches the competitors rear wing in parc ferme like that???) with that new evidence max and the mechanic have been called into the stewards…and the general takeway from you lot is that max tampering with hamilton’s rear wing is ok, but hamilton should be banned for said rear wing infraction caused by verstappen? Ridiculous.
It is pointless to have any kind of discussion here anymore. A sad state for this forum.



they’ve just ran a video on Sky of loads of drivers poking and prodding the other cars, Seb actually rolls a Merc forward! I'm not even 100% sure max touches the car.

[Zico]

For me both the penalty decisions were the correct ones. Lewis will be gutted and feel hard done to that it's because of a broken part but as it provided a performance advantage, unfortunately there can be no other penalty.

I'm actually a bit surprised they didn't try to punish Max harder to keep the championship more open and that has renewed a bit of my faith in the FIA being both fair and consistent with this one... but strangely I'm also a bit disappointed that the points could move away from Merc and Lewis in a big way this weekend.

Ah well.. at least watching Lewis having to work his way through the field should be interesting..

[denkimi]

I feel like hamilton could end up on the podium tomorrow.
That mercedes is at least a second a lap faster than any other car except redbull. And perez is once more useless, failing to do a anything usefull with the speed of his redbull .

[Zico]

I feel like hamilton could end up on the podium tomorrow.
That mercedes is at least a second a lap faster than any other car except redbull. And perez is once more useless, failing to do a anything usefull with the speed of his redbull .


Absolutely, I suggested in an earlier post that his new engine probably gives him a tenth or so...well its clearly a lot more than that. What a monster!
This championship is still very much not over.

[joe1888cfc]

Max shat the bed big time, Hamilton looks a second faster than every other car, Perez is an utter waste of space in the other red bull and Mercedes should never had got rid of bottas

[airshifter]

For me both the penalty decisions were the correct ones. Lewis will be gutted and feel hard done to that it's because of a broken part but as it provided a performance advantage, unfortunately there can be no other penalty.

I'm actually a bit surprised they didn't try to punish Max harder to keep the championship more open and that has renewed a bit of my faith in the FIA being both fair and consistent with this one... but strangely I'm also a bit disappointed that the points could move away from Merc and Lewis in a big way this weekend.

Ah well.. at least watching Lewis having to work his way through the field should be interesting..

I thought they were a bit harsh with Max on the fine, but I'm sure the torches and pitchforks would have come out if they didn't fine him, so they were essentially backed into a corner on that one. Good thing it's not retroactive, as Seb would owe at least a couple hundred thousand pounds. BUT if they continue the trend.... they shouldn't have to ever fine anyone else. Getting a good look is one thing, but even the drivers at the top of the pay scale probably don't want to part with that kind of money.




The sprint offered some surprises I wasn't really expecting. No shock that the soft runners made better starts and gained some position, and really no shocker that Lewis made up so many on the first lap with his warmer mediums. But I thought even with track temps what they were that they would fall off quicker and the mediums would have an advantage by half way in or so. Great work by Sainz to keep Checo behind, and it didn't look easy. I think Max had a chance at Bottas but wasn't going to push the issue much. Better to not risk the car at this point.

Great drive through the pack for Lewis. With that new engine that Merc is an absolute monster down the straights with DRS. It seemed that by the time he had half the Spring down, Lewis had perfected his DRS attack. Even the faster cars stood no chance. The same was true up front... Max could make up a tiny bit on Bottas down the main straight, but not much. As is par for the course though, great recovery/damage limitation drive by Lewis. The only person that really had any chance at defending a move was Lando. I'm not sure if he underestimated the closing speed, or just lost the game of nerves. He had a shot at covering the inside and missed it. Everyone else was toast fairly quickly.


At this point I think the race win is probably 50/50 Lewis and Max. Barring the conditions really swinging things towards one teams setup, the Merc are obviously faster. Both Bottas and Perez need to be on their games for the sake of both the WDC and WCC. I wouldn't be at all surprised if both #2 drivers start on softs and play the strategy game to hold up the #1 drivers. But at this point it's even possible that one of the teams rolls the dice and puts a #1 driver on softs. And Interlagos has been known to produce plenty of safety cars as well, and being that close to the water always gives a chance of rain.


It's clear that Merc isn't going to go down without a fight. Even Bottas was back on it. Toto has his head back in it, and the radio call was a gem.



I don't even think the fat lady needs to warm up for this race, as barring any major shuffle, she isn't going to be singing soon.

[denkimi]

At this point I think the race win is probably 50/50 Lewis and Max.
unless something happens, either bottas or verstappen is going to win this. after only 24 laps everybody else was almost or more than 20 seconds behind.

although hamilton looked to be very fast compared to the others, his fastest lap was still slower than those of both verstappen and bottas. except perez, both ferraris and norris, everybody else was more than a second per lap slower.

[Nitrodaze]

What a drive from both Mercedes drivers. Hamilton showed star quality driving from last to 5th in 24 laps. The Mercedes with new engine is really mighty.

Bottas made up for Mexico with a stunning drive. Winning from second with a brilliant start. Bravo Valterie!

[Nitrodaze]

Haha you guys are beyond biased. This is where this forum has jumped the shark. So let me get this straight. Hamiltons car was summoned to the stewards because there was a very minor infraction to his rear wing drs system that was off by millimeters in all likelihood because max Verstappen touched and probably tampered with his rear wing and then had his mechanic call for an investigation ( i mean who bloody touches the competitors rear wing in parc ferme like that???) with that new evidence max and the mechanic have been called into the stewards…and the general takeway from you lot is that max tampering with hamilton’s rear wing is ok, but hamilton should be banned for said rear wing infraction caused by verstappen? Ridiculous.
It is pointless to have any kind of discussion here anymore. A sad state for this forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is not clear if the test of the wing happened before or after Verstappen touched the wing. Toto believes the wing was damaged during qualifying. I fail to see how that is an excuse though. The fact that Bottas' wing passed the test suggests that Mercedes were not cheating in any way.

Nonetheless, it is unclear if the test was done before Friday qualifying or after qualifying before or after Verstappen touched the wing

Once they had found the infringement, disqualification was unavoidable. The situation clearly impacts the championship fight but does not make it impossible. Mercedes would be expecting Bottas to win the race tomorrow. From 10th tomorrow, Hamilton may end up on the podium with the sort of pace we saw in the sprint race.

[airshifter]

unless something happens, either bottas or verstappen is going to win this. after only 24 laps everybody else was almost or more than 20 seconds behind.

although hamilton looked to be very fast compared to the others, his fastest lap was still slower than those of both verstappen and bottas. except perez, both ferraris and norris, everybody else was more than a second per lap slower.

We will see. I don't expect Bottas to lead beyond a pit stop. If Lewis has a good run and gets to Bottas that will be a free position unless he simply defies a team order. I expect Perez to fade as well, but he could at least slow Lewis down some.

Keep in mind that margin included Lewis having to pass 14 cars, though some were no doubt easy. But I don't think Max pushed that hard either really. But I'm fully expecting Lewis to make it to the podium, and with the speed he had today I would be surprised if he didn't.

Setups, strategy, and conditions/tires will all factor in no doubt. But I think often Lewis performs his best when he starts further back. I think he just gets his head into it and drives, rather than question the team as much. I really don't expect many cars ahead of him to slow him much until he is in the top 5 or so. He seems to have figured out the optimum attack to use his DRS down the main straight and let the new engine do the work from there.


Either way, I think we still have a race on our hands.

[Nitrodaze]

We will see. I don't expect Bottas to lead beyond a pit stop. If Lewis has a good run and gets to Bottas that will be a free position unless he simply defies a team order. I expect Perez to fade as well, but he could at least slow Lewis down some.

Keep in mind that margin included Lewis having to pass 14 cars, though some were no doubt easy. But I don't think Max pushed that hard either really. But I'm fully expecting Lewis to make it to the podium, and with the speed he had today I would be surprised if he didn't.

Setups, strategy, and conditions/tires will all factor in no doubt. But I think often Lewis performs his best when he starts further back. I think he just gets his head into it and drives, rather than question the team as much. I really don't expect many cars ahead of him to slow him much until he is in the top 5 or so. He seems to have figured out the optimum attack to use his DRS down the main straight and let the new engine do the work from there.


Either way, I think we still have a race on our hands.

Firstly, Bottas would need to do another great start. If he can do that, he has the pace to keep Verstappen behind. He has won one race this season, he can win this one with good strategy. If Sainz can have another great start, he may put Perez in Hamilton's reach. Which would make podium a possibility for Hamilton. But if Perez can pass Sainz, chances are that there would be two Redbull's on the podium.

[The Black Knight]

Firstly, Bottas would need to do another great start. If he can do that, he has the pace to keep Verstappen behind. He has won one race this season, he can win this one with good strategy. If Sainz can have another great start, he may put Perez in Hamilton's reach. Which would make podium a possibility for Hamilton. But if Perez can pass Sainz, chances are that there would be two Redbull's on the podium.

I have to say learning about Hamilton's disqualification and that it was actually wing damage and not anything of intent or error on the part of Mercedes- I can't believe they gave him a penalty- this a dangerous stupid precedent.

[Bagwan]

I have to say learning about Hamilton's disqualification and that it was actually wing damage and not anything of intent or error on the part of Mercedes- I can't believe they gave him a penalty- this a dangerous stupid precedent.

It is a good point , Mr. Knight .
But , if he had not been penalized , would it prompt teams to actually make parts designed to fail into a faster configuration ?

[Nitrodaze]

I have to say learning about Hamilton's disqualification and that it was actually wing damage and not anything of intent or error on the part of Mercedes- I can't believe they gave him a penalty- this a dangerous stupid precedent.

If it is actually wing damage, then it would suggest they are trying to fix who wins the championships. Objectively, a team should not be punished for parts failure if it did not present a dangerous situation.

I always said this season smelled of a fix from the start. There is a rotten smell in the air of premeditated efforts to see Mercedes not win one or both of the championship titles.

[Nitrodaze]

It is a good point , Mr. Knight .
But , if he had not been penalized , would it prompt teams to actually make parts designed to fail into a faster configuration ?

Good point, but then both cars would fail similarly. Clearly, this is not the case. I am quite interested in how it happened to break in the first place. Was it struck by debris or did Verstappen unintentionally break it. Too many unknowns.

[The Black Knight]

It is a good point , Mr. Knight .
But , if he had not been penalized , would it prompt teams to actually make parts designed to fail into a faster configuration ?

I think that would become very obvious very quickly... plus the damage actually cost them performance and they were able to show that. They weren't even allowed to fix it ffs. This penalty is completely wrong.

[Nitrodaze]

I think that would become very obvious very quickly... plus the damage actually cost them performance and they were able to show that. They weren't even allowed to fix it ffs. This penalty is completely wrong.

They probably were punished because the failure was seen to have created an increased performance. Even so, the punishment did not fit the situation. It was not intentional and it is a very hard-fought championship situation where their punishment was going to have a profound impact on the championship outcome. In this instance, the driver is punished the most.

[airshifter]

I think that would become very obvious very quickly... plus the damage actually cost them performance and they were able to show that. They weren't even allowed to fix it ffs. This penalty is completely wrong.

1.3.3 If an Automobile is found not to comply with the applicable technical regulations, it shall be no defence to claim that no performance advantage was obtained.

The regulations do as much as possible to not allow for gray area. There is even a specific technical directive on how this test is done.

It sucks for Mercedes but they are fortunate that this happened after qualifying and not after the Sprint or the main race. Similar to the situation with Vettel the penalty would be without conditions attached. Intention does not create compliance.

[Bagwan]

Just a short time ago , they mentioned on the telecast that the FIA still have the offending wing .
So , it seems that the "fact" that it was broken at all may still be an assumption .

[Fortitude]

FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN GRANDE PRÊMIO DE SÃO PAULO 2021 - PRACTICE 2
12 14 Nov 2021 Autódromo José Carlos Pace, São Paulo

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1104/brazil/practice-2.html


FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN GRANDE PRÊMIO DE SÃO PAULO 2021 - SPRINT GRID
12 14 Nov 2021 Autódromo José Carlos Pace, São Paulo

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1104/brazil/sprint-grid.html


FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN GRANDE PRÊMIO DE SÃO PAULO 2021 - SPRINT
12 14 Nov 2021 Autódromo José Carlos Pace, São Paulo

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1104/brazil/sprint-results.html

[Zico]

I have to say learning about Hamilton's disqualification and that it was actually wing damage and not anything of intent or error on the part of Mercedes- I can't believe they gave him a penalty- this a dangerous stupid precedent.

We have not yet heard the FIA's detailed reasoning behind their decision and so we are taking Wolfs word for it that the FIA actually agreed that there was no performance advantage.. and actually a disadvantage.
How could Merc possibly prove that, especially after taking pole? I'm not convinced.


As Bagwan its a precedent that could go both ways with parts being designed to fail so I think I'd need to know the facts in a lot more detail before forming an opinion on this.

[Tazio]

Great start by "The Boss"




'noda! :dork:

[airshifter]

More debris.... Perez is toast soon

[The Black Knight]

We've witnessed one of the greatest drives of all time today and yesterday - amazing from Lewis.

Can't understand why Max didn't get a penalty - smells of bias to be honest- it seems he opened the steering mid corner.

[Zico]

Fantastic race and fantastic drive by Lewis.. Kudos to Merc for giving him the tool to do that.
Max tried everything to stay in front but the performance difference was so huge that it was just a matter of time.
I'm also surprised that Max wasn't given a penalty, looked pretty blatant to me. I'm guessing the telemetry must have told a different story.

Best race of the year so far? Must be up there.

[truefan72]

I love how all the Sky F1 guys keep talking about how fast the mercedes is, and how quick the mercedes was this weekend etc., etc. etc.
When the truth is, it was Hamilton who was fast and not necessarily the mercedes per say.
If the car was as quick as they think then the mercedes should have had a 1-2 in Friday Qualy
And Bottas would have sprinted away from Verstappen in the sprint race, which he barely won over Verstappen
And Bottas would have closed up and passed perez, then passed Veratappen in the race.
And bottas would have closed the gap to Verstappen with 14 laps to go with fresher tires and overtook Verstappen at the end.
The simple truth is that Hamilton was on another level this weekend. Including adjustments he made after Friday FP1 and in FP2 on Saturday. Because He took pole by .4sec from Verstappen and Bottas. Which means the pace was relatively the same.
This weekend, Hamilton was unstoppable. Between his racecraft, adjustments, and in race decision making, he managed to make the mercedes look unbeatable.
bottas, didn't.

[Bagwan]

Yeah , Max escaped without penalty , and was pretty lucky to do so .
It looked a little ugly to me .

So , if that wing actually cost him time in qually , when he was already 4 tenths ahead , how fast is that thing ?

It seems that Red Bull is genuinely surprised at this speed they have suddenly found .
But , I'm not .

That said , it was a stunning show from Lewis all weekend , who leaves Sao Paulo without a scratch on his car .
The whole gambit relies on him driving just as he did today , recovering a 25 place deficit to win .

[joe1888cfc]

If it is actually wing damage, then it would suggest they are trying to fix who wins the championships. Objectively, a team should not be punished for parts failure if it did not present a dangerous situation.

I always said this season smelled of a fix from the start. There is a rotten smell in the air of premeditated efforts to see Mercedes not win one or both of the championship titles.
Your fkn nuts man.

[joe1888cfc]

I love how all the Sky F1 guys keep talking about how fast the mercedes is, and how quick the mercedes was this weekend etc., etc. etc.
When the truth is, it was Hamilton who was fast and not necessarily the mercedes per say.
If the car was as quick as they think then the mercedes should have had a 1-2 in Friday Qualy
And Bottas would have sprinted away from Verstappen in the sprint race, which he barely won over Verstappen
And Bottas would have closed up and passed perez, then passed Veratappen in the race.
And bottas would have closed the gap to Verstappen with 14 laps to go with fresher tires and overtook Verstappen at the end.
The simple truth is that Hamilton was on another level this weekend. Including adjustments he made after Friday FP1 and in FP2 on Saturday. Because He took pole by .4sec from Verstappen and Bottas. Which means the pace was relatively the same.
This weekend, Hamilton was unstoppable. Between his racecraft, adjustments, and in race decision making, he managed to make the mercedes look unbeatable.
bottas, didn't.
So the guy with new engine and massive power advantage is all down to driver and not the car. Get your head out Hamilton's arse man, yeah he was superb yesterday and today but put him in Max's car and he's no even coming in top 3

[Zico]

I love how all the Sky F1 guys keep talking about how fast the mercedes is, and how quick the mercedes was this weekend etc., etc. etc.
When the truth is, it was Hamilton who was fast and not necessarily the mercedes per say.
If the car was as quick as they think then the mercedes should have had a 1-2 in Friday Qualy
And Bottas would have sprinted away from Verstappen in the sprint race, which he barely won over Verstappen
And Bottas would have closed up and passed perez, then passed Veratappen in the race.
And bottas would have closed the gap to Verstappen with 14 laps to go with fresher tires and overtook Verstappen at the end.
The simple truth is that Hamilton was on another level this weekend. Including adjustments he made after Friday FP1 and in FP2 on Saturday. Because He took pole by .4sec from Verstappen and Bottas. Which means the pace was relatively the same.
This weekend, Hamilton was unstoppable. Between his racecraft, adjustments, and in race decision making, he managed to make the mercedes look unbeatable.
bottas, didn't.

Did you even watch the race? Lewis was overtaking nearly everyone on the main straight well before the braking zone and according to Horner Lewis was as much as 30kmh faster at the end of that straight than Max.

Sure, Lewis drove brilliantly and made the most of it but I think any sane person will acknowledge that his car also had a huge performance advantage today. I can now see why they chose to take another PU, for Merc it looks to be worth way more than the grid penalty for it.


Breaking news- Lewis hauled back to the Stewards office for safety belt breach. I'm guessing its probably when he picked up the flag

[airshifter]

Overall a really good race up front. RB and Merc were so far ahead that we really didn't get to see the rest of the pack all that much, not that there was a lot going on. It just goes to show how far these two teams have pushed the performance, as well as how much better Lewis and Max are vs their respective team mates.

Bottas had troubles off the line, but the shady side of the track as a whole suffered. Lewis was slow to the line keeping them warm and got a great start, same as yesterday. The setup on his Merc was strong where it mattered most, and even before DRS the other cars were falling prey to that setup and the new engine.

From there it was a matter of tactics up front. The SC and VSC periods helped Bottas jump Perez with the free pit stop, and for once both the #2 drivers really seemed to be in the game with strong runs. It was great to see Perez fight back against the first pass by Lewis, though it just set him up to lose the place again. But he did what he could. Once that was done, I thought both Lewis and Max went in a little early.... I was actually thinking one of them might go a bit longer and change to mediums for the final stint. But Lewis reeled Max in slowly but surely as expected, and got him in the end. I thought the off would at least be investigated to the point of data and telemetry, but then again maybe they can review what we didn't see. The black and white was well deserved for Max, he really pushed the limits of the weaving. But that's his job really.... push it to the limit of not getting actual penalties.

Great drives all around by the top 4 really. The only thing a bit shaky was Max on defense.... but he was driving like someone fighting for their first WDC shot. Bottas in clean air kept Perez at bay fairly easily, but RB and Perez had the gap to steal the fastest lap point back from Lewis at the end. I'm sort of surprised that both Merc drivers seemed to question the strategy call by the team, especially Bottas thinking they could finish 1-2 as he often fades in the race.



Great strides from Ferrari as well, it looks like they should be able to possibly stay in front of McLaren for the rest of the season. But just like Merc, the McLarens are strong in a straight line, and might be able to overcome the reds at these final tracks.



With the WDC and WCC still on the table, it might well be decided by if either of the #2 drivers can really step up to the plate in the final races. I personally think Lewis and Merc should have the upper hand for the final races, but this has been a season with the "usual" often not happening. And as it looks, the #2 driver performance might well be the primary factor in the WDC as well.... at this point stealing points from either of the top 2 drivers will be huge.

[airshifter]

Did you even watch the race? Lewis was overtaking nearly everyone on the main straight well before the braking zone and according to Horner Lewis was as much as 30kmh faster at the end of that straight than Max.

Sure, Lewis drove brilliantly and made the most of it but I think any sane person will acknowledge that his car also had a huge performance advantage today. I can now see why they chose to take another PU, for Merc it looks to be worth way more than the grid penalty for it.


Breaking news- Lewis hauled back to the Stewards office for safety belt breach. I'm guessing its probably when he picked up the flag

Agreed on the speed differential. Making passes easily even before DRS makes it obvious how strong the car is with the new lump. They had it set up great, strong where it would benefit them the most, and not giving up much anywhere. Lewis did a great job today, but IMHO he has had harder races by far.


As for the belt breach..... I told my wife that the stop alone was risky. The where and how of the stop alone drew my attention and if there was a belt breach.... well they won't do anything anyway probably in terms of the points. I'm guessing a fine of say... hmmm.... 50,000 pounds? Well worth it to Lewis if it happens.

[Firstgear]

I've been disliking Max less and less this season, as it seemed to me he was finally starting to mature. His actions today (behind the wheel and on the radio) are making me thing I was wrong about that.
Glad Lewis was able to pull out the win today...it means the championship will very likely go to the last race (or two).

[The Black Knight]

I've been disliking Max less and less this season, as it seemed to me he was finally starting to mature. His actions today (behind the wheel and on the radio) are making me thing I was wrong about that.
Glad Lewis was able to pull out the win today...it means the championship will very likely go to the last race (or two).

I think he's a dangerous driver to be honest. And his attitude over the radio to the Black & White flag as well. Honestly I have always thought the guy is a complete and utter pleb. Brilliant driver, although overrated, but an utter pleb all the same. He proved that again today.

[Nitrodaze]

1.3.3 If an Automobile is found not to comply with the applicable technical regulations, it shall be no defence to claim that no performance advantage was obtained.

The regulations do as much as possible to not allow for gray area. There is even a specific technical directive on how this test is done.


That section of the regulation is ambiguous at best. The key statement here is "is found not to comply". The conditional context of the finding depends largely on when it was found not to comply with the regulations and all the remedial possibilities applicable to that moment.

The scenario therefore may be the following:-

1. Was the contravention found before qualifying commenced. If so, were Mercedes given the opportunity to remediate the offending part.
2. Was it found during qualifying
3. Was it found after qualifying. If so was it found before Verstappen touched the wing or after

then there are the questions of whether

a). the contravention was manufactured to operate in the way that contravened the regulation. This includes whether it was manufactured to fail in such a way as to produce increased performance.
b). Or was it a freak failure of wing component that failed in a way that produced the contravention

c). Then there is the question of whether Mercedes were aware of the broken part but failed to fix it or did not have the time to fix it and decided to risk running the car in qualifying with the hope the FIA would not notice.

The fairness of the steward's decision falls on the timing of the discovery, the presence or absence of premeditation, the cause of the failure, the authenticity of the cause, the authenticity of innocence and a proof of unfair advantage or lack of.

If all of these things can be shown to be outside the spirit of fair racing conduct, then there is no doubt the stewards have acted in a fair manner. Otherwise, it would be a very clear evidence that there is a clear bias in the FIA deliberations that is anti-Mercedes.

[Nitrodaze]

We have not yet heard the FIA's detailed reasoning behind their decision and so we are taking Wolfs word for it that the FIA actually agreed that there was no performance advantage.. and actually a disadvantage.
How could Merc possibly prove that, especially after taking pole? I'm not convinced.


As Bagwan its a precedent that could go both ways with parts being designed to fail so I think I'd need to know the facts in a lot more detail before forming an opinion on this.

With a replaced compliant wing thay have won the race from 10th. That should suggest that the Mercedes had inherent pace without the offending wing.

[Nitrodaze]

We've witnessed one of the greatest drives of all time today and yesterday - amazing from Lewis.

Can't understand why Max didn't get a penalty - smells of bias to be honest- it seems he opened the steering mid corner.

that would have been another crash if Hamilton had not taken avoiding action. It was clear as day that Verstappen was trying to take out Hamilton to preserve his championship lead. The stewards at this race were crap. They obviously turned a blind eye to another situation that was a clear attempt to cause an accident. It was a very shameless lack of action from the stewards office. SHAME on them.

They were able to notice Hamilton's seatbelt loosened but fail to see Verstappen trying to cause a crash. I am beginning to think these stewards are on the take.

[Nitrodaze]

Your fkn nuts man.

Try to spell properly at least. You are British after all.

[Nitrodaze]

I've been disliking Max less and less this season, as it seemed to me he was finally starting to mature. His actions today (behind the wheel and on the radio) are making me thing I was wrong about that.
Glad Lewis was able to pull out the win today...it means the championship will very likely go to the last race (or two).

This is that element of Verstappen's likeness to Schumacher l was referring to. The determination to do whatever it takes to win, including taking out the opposition in the process of winning. It is very dangerous both to himself and the targeted driver. It is also a clear notice to the future generation of drivers that would be racing with him in the sharp end of the grid. That to beat him, they must be ready to risk all to beat him.

[Nitrodaze]

Did you even watch the race? Lewis was overtaking nearly everyone on the main straight well before the braking zone and according to Horner Lewis was as much as 30kmh faster at the end of that straight than Max.

Sure, Lewis drove brilliantly and made the most of it but I think any sane person will acknowledge that his car also had a huge performance advantage today. I can now see why they chose to take another PU, for Merc it looks to be worth way more than the grid penalty for it.


Breaking news- Lewis hauled back to the Stewards office for safety belt breach. I'm guessing its probably when he picked up the flag

This is not something new. We saw this Mercedes pace in Turkey where they were not able to properly capitalize on it. The combined effect of a fresh new engine and the Mercedes trick device which worked well at Sao Paolo, reproduced that pace we saw in Turkey. I think you can see why Mercedes might be very difficult for Redbull at the next two desert races

That aside, Hamilton produced a tremendous performance to overcome his adversity. He always seems to pull something truly special out of the bag when the deck is stacked against him. I am a bit nervous to praise his performance too much as some would call my appreciation fanboy rhetorics. Whatever the case, this is one of his best performances that we shall be talking about, even after he has retired.

[F1nKS]

Great drive by Hamilton.

Crazy to see how Hamilton's car performance was just so much greater than anything out there. It makes you wonder how Max has won so many races this year.

RBR better hope whatever engine degradation that Mercedes has happens fast with this engine, because otherwise, I don't see how Verstappen wins any of the next 3 races.

[The Black Knight]

Great drive by Hamilton.

Crazy to see how Hamilton's car performance was just so much greater than anything out there. It makes you wonder how Max has won so many races this year.

RBR better hope whatever engine degradation that Mercedes has happens fast with this engine, because otherwise, I don't see how Verstappen wins any of the next 3 races.

I have a theory on that, in that it won't. I don't think a knew engine can provide the sort of performance boost we saw but thinking about it, Mercedes still have all the different engine modes available to them that they have had throughout the years. I doubt very much they have removed them, what would be the benefit? Because the engine has to only last 4 races they can run the engine in a higher power mode consistently, this is also contributing to Lewis massive straight-line speed advantage. The engine is probably on the highest available race mode all the time between qualifying and race day and I'd say they plan on hammering it for the next 3 race weekends knowing it will hold up fine. They may have pulled a masterstroke in Brazil which could very well end up winning Lewis and them the title.

[Fortitude]

FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN GRANDE PRÊMIO DE SÃO PAULO 2021 - RACE RESULT
12 14 Nov 2021 Autódromo José Carlos Pace, São Paulo

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1104/brazil/race-result.html


'It was a good battle' – Verstappen gives his take on his Lap 48 defence from Hamilton in Brazil
14 November 2021

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.it-was-a-good-battle-verstappen-gives-his-take-on-his-lap-48-defence-from.29n8IxUTwFGzL5Gq5TQ2LA.html


FIA post-race press conference - Sao Paulo
14 November 2021

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.fia-post-race-press-conference-sao-paulo-2021.Chc64SCMRTLVuxSHOAwvh.html


Red Bull respond to Wolff’s scrutineering threat
Date published: November 15 2021 - Jon Wilde

Helmut Marko says Red Bull are “not worried” by Toto Wolff’s promise to keep an eagle eye on the RB16B for the rest of the year.

The two teams battling for the Drivers’ and Constructors’ World Championships are at loggerheads once more regarding the legality of each other’s car.

The latest furore blew up on Friday in Sao Paulo, where Max Verstappen was fined 50,000 euros for handling Lewis Hamilton’s Mercedes W12 in parc ferme while examining its rear wing.

Verstappen later admitted he was “just looking at how much the rear wing was flexing at that point”, while it was also reported that Red Bull’s technical director Adrian Newey and chief engineer Paul Monaghan had “marched into the FIA office with a mountain of papers and videos” at Interlagos to explain how they believed Mercedes were bending the rules.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-respond-toto-wolff-threat/


Formula 1
Mark Hughes: Why Mercedes was so much faster in Brazil
By Mark Hughes

The competitive picture between the two cars had inverted yet again in this crazy see-sawing season. The expectation was it would be pretty evenly matched between them here, with the Red Bull’s downforce giving it the advantage in sector 2 and the Mercedes’ low drag in sectors 1 and 3, and the time spent in 1 and 3 combined being around the same as that in 2.

But a couple of things unbalanced those scales: Hamilton’s new power unit and the Red Bull’s front end limitation in how it was using its tyres.
As is well-established by now, Mercedes has been carrying a power unit issue for most of the season’s second half. As a consequence, it has been running its engines conservatively but in addition even to that, the drop-off in performance as miles are acquired has proven higher than expected.

Christian Horner reckons the Honda loses only 0.1s of performance between the beginning of its life and the end. The Mercedes loses at least twice that – but is probably more powerful than the Honda when new.

As reported on Friday, even taking Red Bull out of the equation the Mercedes was much, much faster relative to the rest of the field around Interlagos than its seasonal average on a qualifying lap. Its average qualifying advantage over the fastest non-Red Bull team in the season up to Brazil was 0.55%. In Brazil, that margin was out to 0.98%. It was by far the fastest the car has been in qualifying all season relative to the opposition.

Was that all from a fresh engine? If so, it implies the fresh engine is worth around 0.35s over an old one (as the difference between 0.55% and 0.98% faster), which sounds a lot. But perhaps 0.2s of that is the actual difference and the remaining 0.15s is Mercedes running it in a higher mode, with an extra engine in the pool, nothing to lose and a points deficit to overcome.

“[The Honda] engine performance is a very flat line [over its lifetime],” said Verstappen, “whereas theirs seems to give a lot of performance when new. But I think that will revert quite quickly.”

Red Bull was suspicious though. Even coming into the weekend, before the fresh power unit was announced, it still believed Mercedes’ straightline advantage was more than could be explained by its low-rake concept, that it was doing something with its rear wing. Adrian Newey was in an unofficial discussion with the FIA about it.

It couldn’t be bending it back beyond a pre-set load threshold as was common practice before the technical directives about it came into play in France this year. Because there are now markers on the car and rearward-facing cameras to monitor it.

Read MORE here;

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-why-mercedes-was-so-much-faster-in-brazil/

[denkimi]

I think TBK is right, they had to tune down their engine to make it last

After yesterday i wonder why they don't put in a new engine for every race. Or at least every 3 to 4 races. The 5 place penalty means nothing if the car is a second per lap faster.

[denkimi]

Anyway, great race from hamilton.

Good for the championship, perhaps the fight for the title may turn out to be exciting after all.

[Nitrodaze]

I have a theory on that, in that it won't. I don't think a knew engine can provide the sort of performance boost we saw but thinking about it, Mercedes still have all the different engine modes available to them that they have had throughout the years. I doubt very much they have removed them, what would be the benefit? Because the engine has to only last 4 races they can run the engine in a higher power mode consistently, this is also contributing to Lewis massive straight-line speed advantage. The engine is probably on the highest available race mode all the time between qualifying and race day and I'd say they plan on hammering it for the next 3 race weekends knowing it will hold up fine. They may have pulled a masterstroke in Brazil which could very well end up winning Lewis and them the title.

Actually, Mercedes have two new engines which have done less than two race cycles for Hamilton. So they have fresh engines to race the two desert races. But l am not sure they would have fresh engines for Abu Dhabi. That last race may be a critical championship defining race with Redbull and Mercedes racing engines that are not fresh. The Honda engine seems to sustain its freshness for longer than the Mercedes engine.

I am hoping that both teams and drivers arrive at Abu Dhabi level on points or as close as possible. So this last race is as exciting as the 2016 race at this venue between Rosberg and Hamilton.

[Nitrodaze]

I think TBK is right, they had to tune down their engine to make it last

After yesterday i wonder why they don't put in a new engine for every race. Or at least every 3 to 4 races. The 5 place penalty means nothing if the car is a second per lap faster.

It is possible they tune down the engine to make it last. The concept of engine modes has been banned in the 2021 regulations but it does not ban teams from running their engines tuned down for a race weekend.

You have to take into consideration that the difference in pace is due to the relative age of the Redbull engine to the newer Mercedes engine. The effect of the 5 place penalty would differ for the different relative ages of the engines fighting at the front. If both engines were new, the effect would be more severe. As it goes, it wasn't. The Mercedes engine was newer than the Redbull.

[The Black Knight]

It is possible they tune down the engine to make it last. The concept of engine modes has been banned in the 2021 regulations but it does not ban teams from running their engines tuned down for a race weekend.

You have to take into consideration that the difference in pace is due to the relative age of the Redbull engine to the newer Mercedes engine. The effect of the 5 place penalty would differ for the different relative ages of the engines fighting at the front. If both engines were new, the effect would be more severe. As it goes, it wasn't. The Mercedes engine was newer than the Redbull.

I don't think engine modes are banned, you just have to use the same mode between qualifying and race day.

[The Black Knight]

Actually, Mercedes have two new engines which have done less than two race cycles for Hamilton. So they have fresh engines to race the two desert races. But l am not sure they would have fresh engines for Abu Dhabi. That last race may be a critical championship defining race with Redbull and Mercedes racing engines that are not fresh. The Honda engine seems to sustain its freshness for longer than the Mercedes engine.

I am hoping that both teams and drivers arrive at Abu Dhabi level on points or as close as possible. So this last race is as exciting as the 2016 race at this venue between Rosberg and Hamilton.

I find it hard to understand how many parts they have now with X penalties. I'd actually like a chart to see exactly what parts are available. It's hard to keep track of but I think they are running a higher engine mode and that's the main reason for the performance differential.

[denkimi]

You have to take into consideration that the difference in pace is due to the relative age of the Redbull engine to the newer Mercedes engine. The effect of the 5 place penalty would differ for the different relative ages of the engines fighting at the front. If both engines were new, the effect would be more severe. As it goes, it wasn't. The Mercedes engine was newer than the Redbull.
I don't believe it's the actual age of the engine that makes the big difference. As posted here before, the difference should be only 0,2s or so over the course of their lifetime. What we've seen here was closer to a second per lap.

I believe the fact that engines normally have to last 7 to 8 races, and this one only 4 allows them to run them much higher in power.

[Nitrodaze]

I don't believe it's the actual age of the engine that makes the big difference. As posted here before, the difference should be only 0,2s or so over the course of their lifetime. What we've seen here was closer to a second per lap.

I believe the fact that engines normally have to last 7 to 8 races, and this one only 4 allows them to run them much higher in power.

Of course, it is not engine alone. There is the new device on the Mercedes car and DRS combined that helped produce that pace we were talking about. I doubt Mercedes would have turned the power up to its max redline output. They still need these new engines to be reasonably fresh for the last three races.

[Nitrodaze]

I find it hard to understand how many parts they have now with X penalties. I'd actually like a chart to see exactly what parts are available. It's hard to keep track of but I think they are running a higher engine mode and that's the main reason for the performance differential.

They have been quite smart actually. Building up a stock of partially used engines to have them when they need them at the end of the season. They would have at least two fresh engines each to put in the cars for the last three races. At this point, it is too costly to take an engine penalty. I suspect all teams would be running to the end of the season with their current stock of engines. Unless they have an unexpected engine failure.

[Nitrodaze]

I don't think engine modes are banned, you just have to use the same mode between qualifying and race day.

Engine modes are definitely banned. Check this out (https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.qualifying-engine-modes-what-are-the-proposed-changes-and-why-do-they-matter.OI3cSGqWS6mONcBHUFncL.html)

The days of Qualifying engine mode, race engine mode and overtaking engine mode was banned since the 2020 regulations l believe. All cars must run one engine mode all weekend.

But what are engine modes?

Qualifying modes - labelled 'party modes' after a nickname coined by Mercedes - make available extra engine revs and the ability to run without harvesting power and diverting it to the battery, thereby allowing maximum deployment of energy recovered via the two energy recovery systems. These modes also typically run more aggressive ignition timing and fuel mixture.


Race mode - will allow adequate harvesting to keep the battery supplied with energy that can be deployed through the lap – without draining the battery and thereby compromising the following lap. It will also typically run lower maximum revs than the qualifying mode and a setting of ignition timing that keeps the valves and piston crowns at a safer temperature.
[ these definitions are courtesy of F1.com]

What is not banned in the engine mapping used. Teams are allowed to use a prefered engine mapping for a race weekend. The engine mapping may limit the max output of the [ICE] engine for the race weekend. I suspect what teams cannot do is vary the mapping during various stages of the weekend l understand.

[ouvreur]

The article explains it pretty clearly.

"The new Technical Directive will require the power unit to be run in the same single mode during qualifying and race."

It's just the teams' ability to turn the engines up higher for qualifying / key phases of the race that's been curtailed. Previously, teams had multiple different modes to choose from. They can do what they want and switch between them as often as they like in free practice, and likely do so to determine which is the best compromise for the rest of the meeting - but they have to pick a mode for both qualifying and the race, and stick to it. So, if Mercedes choose to run in a more aggressive power mode in qualifying and the race, that's fine. They would just be stuck in it all the time.

There is still an overtake button, to deploy more electrical energy, as could be seen and heard explained this weekend when Hamilton was trying to pass Perez - the Red Bull was using maximum electrical energy on the pit straight to fend off the Mercedes, leaving it more vulnerable on the back straight after the Senna S.

[Zico]

Of course, it is not engine alone. There is the new device on the Mercedes car and DRS combined that helped produce that pace we were talking about.

I think so too... which is likely to be especially effective on tracks with particularly long straights as we have in Brazil...

"The series of left turns from the exit of "Junção" all the way to Turn 1 is typically taken at full throttle and treated as a long straight. This section is one of the longest full-throttle stretches on the Formula 1 calendar, and thus demanding of the engine's reliability. Other notable stretches of this nature are the "Rettifilo Tribune" straight at Autodromo Nazionale di Monza and the Kemmel Straight at Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps."

Anyone know how the remaining circuits left compare in that regard?

[Nitrodaze]

The article explains it pretty clearly.

"The new Technical Directive will require the power unit to be run in the same single mode during qualifying and race."

It's just the teams' ability to turn the engines up higher for qualifying / key phases of the race that's been curtailed. Previously, teams had multiple different modes to choose from. They can do what they want and switch between them as often as they like in free practice, and likely do so to determine which is the best compromise for the rest of the meeting - but they have to pick a mode for both qualifying and the race, and stick to it. So, if Mercedes choose to run in a more aggressive power mode in qualifying and the race, that's fine. They would just be stuck in it all the time.

There is still an overtake button, to deploy more electrical energy, as could be seen and heard explained this weekend when Hamilton was trying to pass Perez - the Red Bull was using maximum electrical energy on the pit straight to fend off the Mercedes, leaving it more vulnerable on the back straight after the Senna S.

That's correct, the power boost from the electric motor is not banned. It has always been a defensive tool to drivers during the race to counteract the DRS of attacking cars. It is not classed as an engine mode per se.

[Nitrodaze]

I think so too... which is likely to be especially effective on tracks with particularly long straights as we have in Brazil...

"The series of left turns from the exit of "Junção" all the way to Turn 1 is typically taken at full throttle and treated as a long straight. This section is one of the longest full-throttle stretches on the Formula 1 calendar, and thus demanding of the engine's reliability. Other notable stretches of this nature are the "Rettifilo Tribune" straight at Autodromo Nazionale di Monza and the Kemmel Straight at Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps."

Anyone know how the remaining circuits left compare in that regard?

Qatar has almost a mile long straight which would suit the Mercedes perfectly. Jeddah street circuit is like the fast twisties of Brazil which would be taken at full-throttle, l believe. This would suit the Mercedes as well.

[Firstgear]

This is that element of Verstappen's likeness to Schumacher l was referring to. The determination to do whatever it takes to win, including taking out the opposition in the process of winning. It is very dangerous both to himself and the targeted driver. It is also a clear notice to the future generation of drivers that would be racing with him in the sharp end of the grid. That to beat him, they must be ready to risk all to beat him.
So is this something you admire, or dislike about him? Seems to me you've expressed admiration for MS in the past.
I think you know where I stand on this.

[The Black Knight]

The article explains it pretty clearly.

"The new Technical Directive will require the power unit to be run in the same single mode during qualifying and race."

It's just the teams' ability to turn the engines up higher for qualifying / key phases of the race that's been curtailed. Previously, teams had multiple different modes to choose from. They can do what they want and switch between them as often as they like in free practice, and likely do so to determine which is the best compromise for the rest of the meeting - but they have to pick a mode for both qualifying and the race, and stick to it. So, if Mercedes choose to run in a more aggressive power mode in qualifying and the race, that's fine. They would just be stuck in it all the time.

There is still an overtake button, to deploy more electrical energy, as could be seen and heard explained this weekend when Hamilton was trying to pass Perez - the Red Bull was using maximum electrical energy on the pit straight to fend off the Mercedes, leaving it more vulnerable on the back straight after the Senna S.

Exactly. They can choose whatever they want in qualifying and race they just can't change it after qualifying has started. I think they are comfortable running in higher modes now for the remainder of the season. If you think about their quali modes before they were banned, they used to get massive straight line speed boost on the straight, that's effectively what Hamilton had throughout the entire Brazilian GP weekend. And, as I say, that they can do this and make the car so much quicker now I think that Hamilton will be very hard to beat over the coming three races.

[denkimi]

Of course, it is not engine alone. There is the new device on the Mercedes car and DRS combined that helped produce that pace we were talking about. I doubt Mercedes would have turned the power up to its max redline output. They still need these new engines to be reasonably fresh for the last three races.
The new device and the drs were already there the previous races. And they are the same on botass'es car.

Yet hamilton was a whopping 36km/h faster than bottas on the straight here. With the same device, with the same drs. The only difference was the new engine.

But in austin, sochi en monza it was bottas who had a new engine. His top speed was respectively 0,5 and 0,2 km/h slower than hamilton and 1,3km/h faster.

Now, one could claim they gave hamilton less downforce since he had to do a lot of overtaking. But bottas also had to do a lot of overtaking each time, but he was never given less downforce. With his 3 new engines his top speed was every time equal to that of hamilton with an old engine.

So its not the new engine in itself, it's not drs and not whatever device they have to drop the rear. It purely the way they run this new engine. I assume it's not redlined, but i feel it's pretty close. It is definitely being run a loy higher in power than any of bottas'es new engines ever was.

[Bagwan]

The new device and the drs were already there the previous races. And they are the same on botass'es car.

Yet hamilton was a whopping 36km/h faster than bottas on the straight here. With the same device, with the same drs. The only difference was the new engine.

But in austin, sochi en monza it was bottas who had a new engine. His top speed was respectively 0,5 and 0,2 km/h slower than hamilton and 1,3km/h faster.

Now, one could claim they gave hamilton less downforce since he had to do a lot of overtaking. But bottas also had to do a lot of overtaking each time, but he was never given less downforce. With his 3 new engines his top speed was every time equal to that of hamilton with an old engine.

So its not the new engine in itself, it's not drs and not whatever device they have to drop the rear. It purely the way they run this new engine. I assume it's not redlined, but i feel it's pretty close. It is definitely being run a loy higher in power than any of bottas'es new engines ever was.

So , it sounds like you're saying they could have been going faster all year .
But , why would they do that ?

[The Black Knight]

So , it sounds like you're saying they could have been going faster all year .
But , why would they do that ?

Well I think if they were to just start smacking in a new engine every two races the FIA would clamp down on it pretty quickly. With only 4 races to go even if the FIA clamp down on it they'll still have the allocation they require for the remainder of the season. It's a win win for Mercedes. And they did win because of it.

[Nitrodaze]

So is this something you admire, or dislike about him? Seems to me you've expressed admiration for MS in the past.
I think you know where I stand on this.

No, not something l admire at all. But l understand it. It is based on the Machiavelli principle of "The end justifies the means". This principle only makes sense if you are successful. When it backfires, it leaves one looking quite stupid.

The clean driving of Hamilton, Raikkonen, Ricciardo and Bottas has been more to my liking.

[Zico]

Well I think if they were to just start smacking in a new engine every two races the FIA would clamp down on it pretty quickly. With only 4 races to go even if the FIA clamp down on it they'll still have the allocation they require for the remainder of the season. It's a win win for Mercedes. And they did win because of it.

That sounds somewhat plausible and if intentionally planned that way, its also quite genius thinking by Merc to hide that until it is too late.

So... was the PU that was allegedly making an 'unusual noise' and so replaced, possibly just a red herring?

All of this could also explain why absolutely no one could predict who was likely to be strong from one week to the next and on whatever circuits.


Btw- It also ties in with Bagwans theory.

[denkimi]

So , it sounds like you're saying they could have been going faster all year .
But , why would they do that ?
Because they can't do it when the engine has to last 8 races. It's not supprising that they can go a lot faster when things only have to last half as long.

But what is also weird is that bottas is already on his 6th engine, which makes that every of his engines also only has to do 4 races. Yet, we have never seen any of that pace throughout the year.

We have witnessed something extraordinary yesterday, but i'm not completely sure what it was. My guess would be mercedes is trying an all or nothing approach.

I wouldn't be supprised if Hamilton takes another new engine this year.

[Firstgear]

Well I think if they were to just start smacking in a new engine every two races the FIA would clamp down on it pretty quickly.
Could they do that and stay below the cost cap? What is the penalty for breaking the bank? Maybe this close to the end of the season, they think they have the funds to do it within the cap.

[Zico]

Could they do that and stay below the cost cap? What is the penalty for breaking the bank? Maybe this close to the end of the season, they think they have the funds to do it within the cap.

"Will the teams be penalised if they spend too much?
Put simply, yes. There are three categories of potential breaches. The first is a procedural breach, such as a team submitting their accounts late or inaccurately. The second is a minor overspend breach, when a team’s report shows they have exceeded the cost cap by less than 5 percent or the Cost Cap Administration finds they have exceeded that percentage. The third is a material overspend breach, where a team’s submission of their accounts or an investigation by the panel shows they have exceeded the cost cap by more than 5 percent.

Once a breach has been identified, three forms of penalty are possible. The first is a financial penalty. The value of the fine will be determined on a case-by-case basis. The second is a minor sporting penalty which could be a combination of a reprimand, deduction of constructors and/or drivers points, a ban for a certain number of races, limitations on testing – both CFD and on-track – and/or a reduction of their cost cap.

The third is the material sporting penalty, which is the most serious as it can involve all of the above plus exclusion from the World Championship."

[denkimi]

Could they do that and stay below the cost cap? What is the penalty for breaking the bank? Maybe this close to the end of the season, they think they have the funds to do it within the cap.
I doubt the cost of an engine is actually that big once they have been developped.


And i still fail to see how any cost cap could be enforced or even be fair.

Like redbull buys engines from honda, but who says honda doesn't spend more making them than they sell them for. And even if you would do a full check of the honda factory, who says they don't outsource parts or development.

If it was me, i would tell my sponsors to pay a part to the companies that i buy things from, so i can buy them cheaper.

[The Black Knight]

Could they do that and stay below the cost cap? What is the penalty for breaking the bank? Maybe this close to the end of the season, they think they have the funds to do it within the cap.

Is Engine part of the cost cap? Am not certain. Can someone confirm?

[gm99]

Qatar has almost a mile long straight which would suit the Mercedes perfectly.

Almost a mile is a bit exaggerated, it's just over 1 km (two thirds of a mile), so about the same as Austin or Barcelona.

[Zico]

Is Engine part of the cost cap? Am not certain. Can someone confirm?

The PU appears to not be included in the cost cap.. although Horner expects it to be at some point in the future.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian-horner-engine-cost-cap/

So.. a 5 place grid drop for a huge power hike?

According to motorsport magazine:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...an-gp-analysis

The top speed advantage Hamilton had over Bottas in Q3 was 5.5kmh. That equates to roughly 43BHP extra power ( a) from a new engine and b) run in a much more aggressive mode). Will correlates pretty accurately with a 0.35s laptime advantage mentioned in the same article. 43bhp is a pretty significant number.

0.35s per lap over a 71-lap race is around 25s. Now he probably would not have net gain the whole race, but it does paint a pretty grim picture for RB. This is all without the diffuser stall effect even considered.

[Nitrodaze]

Almost a mile is a bit exaggerated, it's just over 1 km (two thirds of a mile), so about the same as Austin or Barcelona.

It is exactly 0.66362443 mile to be exact. Which is long enough for the Mercedes engine to be problematic for Redbull.

[airshifter]

Everything I've seen leads me to believe that Merc did exactly what is being discussed here. They took a powerplant and turned it up to 11 knowing it only had less than half usual the usual distance to cover. With so many things impacting overall performance this really should be easy for them to do if they know the major components will handle it. With the MGU-H in the system, they can raise boost quicker than conventional turbos, and really the most restrictive element is still fuel flow. A lot of variable were left uncapped, and fuel flow was the major way to keep the outputs sane in the turbo hybrid era. You can run almost any engine leaner and produce more power at the expense of longevity, though I don't know if they have reached that point with the latest Merc engine setup. The tuning possibilities are huge with the current tech, and no doubt they have explored them in depth.

It seems like a good tradeoff.... at certain circuits. In the case of Merc, everything points to them having more degradation in power vs Honda, so if they were already pushing limits it makes sense to set it up for more output through a shorter life cycle. If you have to swap engines regardless, more chance they will gamble towards the end of the season.

Even at lower power increases than some suspect, extra HP is even more advantageous on certain tracks. With the hybrid systems in place, they might be able to not use energy stores as often in slower parts of the track that are chassis limited for speed. That gives them even more electrical energy available to use it where they can, and especially for overtaking work.



BUT... keep in mind other teams can easily do the same. Though we don't know if anyone would take a new ICE for a race weekend unless they really needed a new engine, it's always possible. And, if they are really backed in a corner, there is a chance that a team has the ability to turn one up to 12 instead of 11, limiting use to a race weekend or such. If the title fights stay as close as they are, it's possible that RB and Merc could both uncork a one race distance screamer and take an all or nothing approach to the final races.

Which would be awesome really. Team boss to engine development manager.... "Release the hounds!"




As for the straights, several circuits have longer straights than Losail, including COTA, Mexico and Yas Marina.

[Nitrodaze]

Yeah , Max escaped without penalty , and was pretty lucky to do so .
It looked a little ugly to me .

So , if that wing actually cost him time in qually , when he was already 4 tenths ahead , how fast is that thing ?

It seems that Red Bull is genuinely surprised at this speed they have suddenly found .
But , I'm not .

That said , it was a stunning show from Lewis all weekend , who leaves Sao Paulo without a scratch on his car .
The whole gambit relies on him driving just as he did today , recovering a 25 place deficit to win .

The lastest release of the onboard video show it was clearly intentional. Verstappen can be seen to delay turning into the corner until he had Hamilton off the track before he started turning the wheel. It is very hard to see why the stewards did not take punitive action. Check this out (https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/12470015/ver-vs-ham-in-brazil-ver-extra-obc-angle-original-video-m25498)

[The Black Knight]

The lastest release of the onboard video show it was clearly intentional. Verstappen can be seen to delay turning into the corner until he had Hamilton off the track before he started turning the wheel. It is very hard to see why the stewards did not take punitive action. Check this out (https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/12470015/ver-vs-ham-in-brazil-ver-extra-obc-angle-original-video-m25498)

Agreed. I think there needs to be a rule that these sort of incidents be reviewed after if the stewards decide no action and a grid penalty applied the next race should they get it wrong.

[Bagwan]

I find it concerning that the stewards seemingly had no way to see the footage from Max's car at the time .

I can't see it , myself , either , as it won't show me in my region , but if it's as definitive as you guys and many others imply , then it's a mess .

I remember thinking at the time that there would be a hell of a job for the stewards if Hamilton couldn't pass him before the end of the race .
And then , moments later , I shook my head , remembering the second Lewis had in his pocket in Monaco , realizing it was merely a matter of time until Hamilton passed him .

Having this incident to put Max in the black cowboy hat for the final races was just a bonus .
I don't know if they even can penalize him here , but Merc wins again even if he escapes penalty .

[Nitrodaze]

Agreed. I think there needs to be a rule that these sort of incidents be reviewed after if the stewards decide no action and a grid penalty applied the next race should they get it wrong.

If you and l can see it, it really beggars the question of why the so-called stewards cannot see it. It just smacks of incompetence or corruption. They were able to see seatbelt was loosened. Which is harder to decern than a driver running another of the track.

[denkimi]

The lastest release of the onboard video show it was clearly intentional. Verstappen can be seen to delay turning into the corner until he had Hamilton off the track before he started turning the wheel. It is very hard to see why the stewards did not take punitive action. Check this out (https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/12470015/ver-vs-ham-in-brazil-ver-extra-obc-angle-original-video-m25498)
They didn't take punitive action because pushing people of the track is allowed for some years now.

Unless you have passed someone completely before the braking zone, if the defending driver is on the inside he can push the one trying to overtake off the track. You don't have to leave any space, even when they are wheel to wheel.
And if they touch, the one trying to overtake will usually be blamed.

Very stupid and dangerous, but that's how the rules are applied nowaday.

[Zico]

The lastest release of the onboard video show it was clearly intentional. Verstappen can be seen to delay turning into the corner until he had Hamilton off the track before he started turning the wheel. It is very hard to see why the stewards did not take punitive action. Check this out (https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/12470015/ver-vs-ham-in-brazil-ver-extra-obc-angle-original-video-m25498)


Lewis shouldn't have been there with his questionable engine so one could argue that its actually his fault. Max obviously just overcooked it going into the corner and as Lewis left the track understeering off too, how is Max at fault for that?

Nah, I'm kidding you ;) :D I haven't watched your link but I don't need to, it was already crystal clear that Max 100% meant to drive him wide and should at very least have been ordered to give up the place or preferably have been given whatever penalty they usually give for that sort of thing... 5 sec and a kick in the nuts. The stewards are at it.
I see Merc have asked for a review of it and I expect Max will probably be given a retrospective 5 sec penalty which obviously won't change the result That was not hard but fair racing as Horner puts it.. but the Stewards not even investigating it, that was a complete farce.

[Zico]

BUT... keep in mind other teams can easily do the same.

Can they though? With of the huge temp increases that likely comes with running so lean, there is a possibility that the others may not have enough cooling capacity or thermal efficiency to be able to do it if they hadn't already considered and planned for it. Further development may be required.


Though we don't know if anyone would take a new ICE for a race weekend unless they really needed a new engine, it's always possible. And, if they are really backed in a corner, there is a chance that a team has the ability to turn one up to 12 instead of 11, limiting use to a race weekend or such. If the title fights stay as close as they are, it's possible that RB and Merc could both uncork a one race distance screamer and take an all or nothing approach to the final races.

Which would be awesome really. Team boss to engine development manager.... "Release the hounds!"

:D

That would be quite something!... and in a perfect world, finale's like that are what it should be like.. every year.

[Nitrodaze]

They didn't take punitive action because pushing people of the track is allowed for some years now.

Unless you have passed someone completely before the braking zone, if the defending driver is on the inside he can push the one trying to overtake off the track. You don't have to leave any space, even when they are wheel to wheel.
And if they touch, the one trying to overtake will usually be blamed.

Very stupid and dangerous, but that's how the rules are applied nowaday.

Sorry buddy, that is not the case. The defending driver can take the racing line at the expense of forcing the attacking driver off the track. What we saw was Verstappen leaving the racing line to attempt to cause a crash. A crash would maintain his points advantage going into the last three races. But would keep Hamilton at the same points disadvantage that he started the race with.
There are three different points in the corner each with its particular duelling convention.

1. the entry into the corner
2. the apex of the corner
3. the exit of the corner

At the entry of the corner, the driver on the inside has the right to take the racing line at the apex if he is side by side or ahead, but must give a car's width on the outside at the apex of the corner. This would force the attacking driver to attempt to overtake on the dirty and longer part of the track at the apex. At the apex, the driver on the outside would typically try to take the racing line coming out of the corner. This is where the defending driver is allowed to run the attacking driver wide if the defending driver is ahead by at least half a cars length.

What we saw in Sao Paolo was Verstappen [who was on the inside approaching the corner] not interested at all in taking the racing line at the apex but allowed his car to drift wide intentionally in order to cause a collision with Hamilton. The more Hamilton took avoiding action, the further Verstappen allowed his car to drift until he was clean of the track and it became too obvious that his actions were premeditated. This is not the conventional act of defending, this was a failed attempt at causing a collision to preserve his championship lead.

[Nitrodaze]

Lewis shouldn't have been there with his questionable engine so one could argue that its actually his fault. Max obviously just overcooked it going into the corner and as Lewis left the track understeering off too, how is Max at fault for that?

Nah, I'm kidding you ;) :D I haven't watched your link but I don't need to, it was already crystal clear that Max 100% meant to drive him wide and should at very least have been ordered to give up the place or preferably have been given whatever penalty they usually give for that sort of thing... 5 sec and a kick in the nuts. The stewards are at it.
I see Merc have asked for a review of it and I expect Max will probably be given a retrospective 5 sec penalty which obviously won't change the result That was not hard but fair racing as Horner puts it.. but the Stewards not even investigating it, that was a complete farce.

Here you go again. We have seen all season cars overtaking or attempting to overtake on the outside at corners. Many have done so without a crash. It is expected, which is why the regulations say the defending driver must give a car's width on the outside. Of course, the rules must be different for Hamilton to the rest of the grid. At least you are consistently biased.

And Verstappen did not overcook it at all. It was a very controlled and premeditated manoeuvre. It is very clear from the onboard.

[Zico]

Here you go again. We have seen all season cars overtaking or attempting to overtake on the outside at the corner. Many have done so without a crash. It is expected, which is why the regulations say the defending driver must give a car's width on the outside. Of course, the rules must be different for Hamilton to the rest of the grid. At least you are consistently biased.

And Verstappen did not overcook it at all. It was a very controlled and premeditated manoeuvre. It is very clear from the onboard.

Erm... I think you'd better read all my post. Lol

[Nitrodaze]

Erm... I think you'd better read all my post. Lol

Yep, you got me. I did not read all of your post. Apologies.

[Zico]

What we saw in Sao Paolo was Verstappen [who was on the inside approaching the corner] not interested at all in taking the racing line at the apex but allowed his car to drift wide intentionally in order to cause a collision with Hamilton. The more Hamilton took avoiding action, the further Verstappen allowed his car to drift until he was clean of the track and it became too obvious that his actions were premeditated. This is not the conventional act of defending, this was a failed attempt at causing a collision to preserve his championship lead.

I think it was an attempt to drive him wide, It was too gradual and controlled to be a collision attempt IMO. I think he is talented enough to hit him if he had wanted to.
Not that what he did was ok of course.

[Zico]

Yep, you got me. I did not read all of your post. Apologies.

No apology required. Its cool.

[Bagwan]

I think it was an attempt to drive him wide, It was too gradual and controlled to be a collision attempt IMO. I think he is talented enough to hit him if he had wanted to.
Not that what he did was ok of course.

I've gotten a chance to see the onboard now , and it didn't seem to be quite as damning as is being characterized .
Max came in hot , but didn't turn outward into him , as I thought I'd seen when I watched the race .
Given he didn't lock up , it hard to say he was pushing to point of adhesion getting around on the inside , but he didn't look far from it to me .

Lewis came fast on the outside , and Max steamed by .
The perfect move , with Max rolling through that quickly , would have been for Hamilton to out-brake him at that point , and slide inside as he went off track .

[Zico]

I've gotten a chance to see the onboard now , and it didn't seem to be quite as damning as is being characterized .
Max came in hot , but didn't turn outward into him , as I thought I'd seen when I watched the race .
Given he didn't lock up , it hard to say he was pushing to point of adhesion getting around on the inside , but he didn't look far from it to me .

Lewis came fast on the outside , and Max steamed by .
The perfect move , with Max rolling through that quickly , would have been for Hamilton to out-brake him at that point , and slide inside as he went off track .

I largely agree. I've just watched it too and for me also it doesn't look as damning as the overhead shot.
He opened his steering a tad but its impossible to say exactly where he is on the grip 'spectrum' and how much understeer he had but it is a moot point really Whether it was from understeer or just pushing him wide he is still in the wrong regardless.

At the end of the day, no contact was made and for me it wasn't a deliberate attempt to hit Lewis... and the correct driver also won the race so at least there is that.
My only real issue is with the stewards not even investigating it. In one sense, its good to let them race and I totally get that but ..IF.. for some reason Lewis hadn't been able to get past again would they have revisited and reconsidered it? I suspect they would have but even just appearing to turn a blind eye to it has made everyone question what the heck the Stewards are playing at. At worst the look to be biased or at best just unproffesional.

[Zico]

Btw.. I was wrong about Bottas not finishing within 5 secs of Max so... if Max is penalised by the 5 secs he would be demoted to third. I can't really see that happening though.

[Nitrodaze]

I've gotten a chance to see the onboard now , and it didn't seem to be quite as damning as is being characterized .
Max came in hot , but didn't turn outward into him , as I thought I'd seen when I watched the race .
Given he didn't lock up , it hard to say he was pushing to point of adhesion getting around on the inside , but he didn't look far from it to me .

Lewis came fast on the outside , and Max steamed by .
The perfect move , with Max rolling through that quickly , would have been for Hamilton to out-brake him at that point , and slide inside as he went off track .

Verstappen did not need to turn the steering towards Hamilton to effect a crash into him. All he had to do was to not brake hard to reduce speed and not turn the steering sharply to the left to take the racing line at the apex round the corner. What happened was a case of chicken; who can brake latest. Upon seeing that he was losing the advantage and Hamilton was likely to come round the outside fast enough to challenge him on the exit of the corner, he decided to neutralize Hamilton's move by drifting wide and forcing him off the track or having both cars tangle in a race-ending way for both.

The telltale sign that this was Verstappen;'s intention is the absence of any hard braking to slow down to make the apex on the racing line at the apex. Secondly, is the clear lack of attempt to turn the steering sharply leftwards to bring the car around the corner as would normally be done to get around the corner fast on the racing line.

Obviously, Verstappen did not approach the apex on the racing line entering the corner but took the inside line to attempt to seize the racing line at the apex. That really compromised his positioning which would have required him to slow down considerably to make the corner but would have allowed Hamilton on the racing line coming into the corner to have a better line coming out of the corner. The net effect of Verstappen's poor entry into the corner was that he may have come out of it slower than Hamilton and with a very compromised line on the exit leading into the straight. It is very clear that this is the motive for Verstappen requiring to neutralize Hamilton's attack.

I read Sky's Martin Brundle's view on this and it was surprisingly from one perspective; Verstappen's. It lacked objectivity and is very indicative of the decision taken in the steward's office. This sort of view requires us to drop the extremities of morality and the unwritten conventions of fair racing to suit the moment.

All of this really brings to question the neutrality of the steward's office. Do they want to manipulate the outcome of the championship for reason of sensation and driving up tickets for the 2022 season? Are they just incompetent? Or are they corrupt and delivering an outcome for the highest payer? We have seen enough to really give reasons to ask these questions.

[denkimi]

Sorry buddy, that is not the case.

Right. Show me a few cases then where pushing drivers of the track was penalised in the last couple of years. On the opposite side, I can show you many examples of when i was not penalised.

The only penalty that has stuck in my mind was the one given to verstappen when lewis pushed him off the track onto the curbs, which caused them to crash both.



The defending driver can take the racing line at the expense of forcing the attacking driver off the track.

What we saw was Verstappen leaving the racing line to attempt to cause a crash. A crash would maintain his points advantage going into the last three races. But would keep Hamilton at the same points disadvantage that he started the race with.
There are three different points in the corner each with its particular duelling convention.

1. the entry into the corner
2. the apex of the corner
3. the exit of the corner

At the entry of the corner, the driver on the inside has the right to take the racing line at the apex if he is side by side or ahead, but must give a car's width on the outside at the apex of the corner. This would force the attacking driver to attempt to overtake on the dirty and longer part of the track at the apex. At the apex, the driver on the outside would typically try to take the racing line coming out of the corner. This is where the defending driver is allowed to run the attacking driver wide if the defending driver is ahead by at least half a cars length.

What we saw in Sao Paolo was Verstappen [who was on the inside approaching the corner] not interested at all in taking the racing line at the apex but allowed his car to drift wide intentionally in order to cause a collision with Hamilton. The more Hamilton took avoiding action, the further Verstappen allowed his car to drift until he was clean of the track and it became too obvious that his actions were premeditated. This is not the conventional act of defending, this was a failed attempt at causing a collision to preserve his championship lead.

Once again you are letting your hamilton fanboyism take over your rational thinking.

Nobody tried to crash here, verstappen just pushed hamilton wide like he has done so many times with so many drivers in the past.

And he does that because there are never any penalty's given for it, thus it's allowed.

I would prefer the concept of leaving space so we could see wheel to wheel battles, but unfortunately that's not the way race control sees it.

[denkimi]

I read Sky's Martin Brundle's view on this and it was surprisingly from one perspective; Verstappen's. It lacked objectivity and is very indicative of the decision taken in the steward's office. This sort of view requires us to drop the extremities of morality and the unwritten conventions of fair racing to suit the moment.

All of this really brings to question the neutrality of the steward's office. Do they want to manipulate the outcome of the championship for reason of sensation and driving up tickets for the 2022 season? Are they just incompetent? Or are they corrupt and delivering an outcome for the highest payer? We have seen enough to really give reasons to ask these questions.
Yes indeed. It's one big conspiracy against hamilton and everybody is in it. Every other driver, every team manager, race control, the fia, even the english journalist are alle completely biased, corrupt and are all hating hamilton.

But you, you are the one who sees things clearly of course.

:lol:

[airshifter]

Can they though? With of the huge temp increases that likely comes with running so lean, there is a possibility that the others may not have enough cooling capacity or thermal efficiency to be able to do it if they hadn't already considered and planned for it. Further development may be required.



:D

That would be quite something!... and in a perfect world, finale's like that are what it should be like.. every year.

Poor wording on my part...

What I should have said is that if there is sufficient overhead available throughout the powertrain and cooling combination then any other team could also turn it up to 11. I suspect that all teams can turn it up somewhat from the usual full use distance power levels. Likewise with cooling the cars are built with the worst possible conditions as the limiter, being the tracks that are very hot and slow, and possibly altitude considerations as well.

But keep in mind, these would be engines only expected to last about 40 percent of usual use. Even at the DIY builder street driven level, more power can be had with compromises in engine life. How far the F1 field can push is hard to say.... but it's possible we find out soon.




As for the appeal from Merc, I doubt it will go anywhere really. Footage shows overlap before the braking markers end, and understeer from the steering wheel input. At that point RB and Max can say they tried to make the corner. The only place either of them opens the wheel is to come back on track off the curbs.

[truefan72]

Yup, simply put, they feigned lack of on-boards to provide cover as they just didn't want to rule against verstappen to "affect" the race. But they had no problems DQ'ing Hamilton from Qualy because a damaged rear wing was .2mm above the threshold. Ok got it!. SMH

Here is Palmer's analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZquZxUHtC0

[Nitrodaze]

Yup, simply put, they feigned lack of on-boards to provide cover as they just didn't want to rule against verstappen to "affect" the race. But they had no problems DQ'ing Hamilton from Qualy because a damaged rear wing was .2mm above the threshold. Ok got it!. SMH

Here is Palmer's analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZquZxUHtC0

Great find buddy. I just wish the mopheads on this forum do their research more thoroughly before calling people Hamilton fanboys. At this rate, drivers would be allowed to take the race into the pit lane and through the car parks.

[Zico]

Poor wording on my part...

What I should have said is that if there is sufficient overhead available throughout the powertrain and cooling combination then any other team could also turn it up to 11. I suspect that all teams can turn it up somewhat from the usual full use distance power levels. Likewise with cooling the cars are built with the worst possible conditions as the limiter, being the tracks that are very hot and slow, and possibly altitude considerations as well.

But keep in mind, these would be engines only expected to last about 40 percent of usual use. Even at the DIY builder street driven level, more power can be had with compromises in engine life. How far the F1 field can push is hard to say.... but it's possible we find out soon.

Apologies for getting pedantic.


Not sure if true (it is not carried on the international version of motorsport.com);
https://it-motorsport-com.translate....&_x_tr_pto=nui

"Hywel Thomas, chief engineer of Brixworth, has prepared an engine 5 for Lewis which must have a life of 2,500 km compared to the 7,000 that normally are required for the resolution of a "standard" power unit. Not being able to change the characteristics of the approved engine components, the Stella engineers worked to take the management strategies of this unit to extremes."

If, true that would explain a lot and go against the very intent of the penalty system, and laughs in the face of the budget cap which does not include the PU costs, but probably still completely legal.

[denkimi]

Yup, simply put, they feigned lack of on-boards to provide cover as they just didn't want to rule against verstappen to "affect" the race. But they had no problems DQ'ing Hamilton from Qualy because a damaged rear wing was .2mm above the threshold. Ok got it!. SMH

Here is Palmer's analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZquZxUHtC0
they didn't rule against verstappen because they have been allowing that stupid behaviour for years now.

verstappen has been doing those stupid things since his early days, and for some reason they decided it was allowed to push drivers off as long as there is no contact. and even if there's contact, they might still blame the one who gets pushed.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=878728158950834
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABKY6nbKIL4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXTLxQMlWp0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EchF9NmKJtA

and the DQ has nothing to do with that, it was outside allowed dimensions so the car was illegal. there is no room for interpretation, aan illegal car measn DQ.

[Nitrodaze]

they didn't rule against verstappen because they have been allowing that stupid behaviour for years now.

verstappen has been doing those stupid things since his early days, and for some reason they decided it was allowed to push drivers off as long as there is no contact. and even if there's contact, they might still blame the one who gets pushed.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=878728158950834
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABKY6nbKIL4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXTLxQMlWp0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EchF9NmKJtA

and the DQ has nothing to do with that, it was outside allowed dimensions so the car was illegal. there is no room for interpretation, aan illegal car measn DQ.

Surprisingly, l happen to agree with you on the fact that it is clear the stewards have been very lenient with Verstappen since he was promoted to the Redbull seat. Other drivers that have done similar have met with stiff punishment. But where shall it end? Do they need a fatality for these clowns to do their jobs properly?

[airshifter]

Apologies for getting pedantic.


Not sure if true (it is not carried on the international version of motorsport.com);
https://it-motorsport-com.translate....&_x_tr_pto=nui

"Hywel Thomas, chief engineer of Brixworth, has prepared an engine 5 for Lewis which must have a life of 2,500 km compared to the 7,000 that normally are required for the resolution of a "standard" power unit. Not being able to change the characteristics of the approved engine components, the Stella engineers worked to take the management strategies of this unit to extremes."

If, true that would explain a lot and go against the very intent of the penalty system, and laughs in the face of the budget cap which does not include the PU costs, but probably still completely legal.

At this level the details matter, so no need for apology.

I had seen that section you found. I never found the true source, so didn't post it here. But I suspect that is exactly what they did, and suspect that at this level of the sport all the engine manufacturers have done fairly exhaustive testing to allow it to be a solution with a high probable cause of success. I'm sure they do the opposite as well, find out how much they can stretch and engine use out if needed.

Even though the glory days of qualification engines and single race engines are gone, they can extract more when they feel it's worth it.


As for the costs and the idea of the budget, I agree. This was one of the reasons I had brought up the thought of relaxing any penalties on budget for accidents that teams had nothing to do with. Regardless of budget cap calculation, it's still a cost of the budget. So potentially millions out of pocket. I couldn't find anything recent, but a few years back there were talks about the engine makers fixing engine costs for budgeting purposes, and they were in the $15 million range. I think the budget cap as we know it is primary aimed at development costs, which are probably insane. Designing and prototyping these things through testing is probably taking a real chunk of change.

[denkimi]

Surprisingly, l happen to agree with you on the fact that it is clear the stewards have been very lenient with Verstappen since he was promoted to the Redbull seat. Other drivers that have done similar have met with stiff punishment. But where shall it end? Do they need a fatality for these clowns to do their jobs properly?
You are again letting you verstappen bias take over. They have been allowing if for everyone.

Just 3 weeks ago alonso pushed giovinazzi off, and then complained giovinazzi had overtaken him outside track limits.
https://youtu.be/DIFK27eIF98
In austria, perez even pushed leclerc into the gravel twice.
https://youtu.be/Dm4ZmUHdXUs

The penalty's for pushing people off track have been a joke for years now. If they would enforce the rule that you have to leave space when someone is besides you, we would see a lot more beautiful overtakes.

[Nitrodaze]

You are again letting you verstappen bias take over. They have been allowing if for everyone.

Just 3 weeks ago alonso pushed giovinazzi off, and then complained giovinazzi had overtaken him outside track limits.
https://youtu.be/DIFK27eIF98
In austria, perez even pushed leclerc into the gravel twice.
https://youtu.be/Dm4ZmUHdXUs

The penalty's for pushing people off track have been a joke for years now. If they would enforce the rule that you have to leave space when someone is besides you, we would see a lot more beautiful overtakes.

Firstly, l don't have a Verstappen bias. Every driver should be criticized if they did something wrong. That is not biased, as l have not unfairly criticized him. If you watched the review by Jonathan Palmer in the YouTube video in the post by Truefan, Jonathan Palmer cited loads of occasions where drivers have been penalized for running other drivers off the track. And he even went as far as to show how very different and more aggressive Verstappen's actions were compared to all those that were penalized in the past.

The inconsistency of the stewarding has produced occasions where a few drivers have got away with running other drivers off the track. Masi's regime has dispensed with the racing convention of giving room to the other drivers. The so-call Masi's elbow; where he claims drivers are allowed to put their elbows out. If this is allowed to go on, all drivers would be properly invited to do the same. And they should not be punished for so doing.

There are a number of unwritten rules in racing between drivers; to not unnecessarily put other drivers in mortal danger. The problem with Verstappen is he has dispensed with those rules and calls it hard racing. I suppose it is great when you are the one dishing it out. It is never great being the recipient of it though.

[airshifter]

https://twitter.com/F0rmulaOne/status/1461406211014864896?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1461406211014864896%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=


No big shock here... They have to build the suspense first.

[The Black Knight]

https://twitter.com/F0rmulaOne/status/1461406211014864896?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1461406211014864896%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=


No big shock here... They have to build the suspense first.

Some fancy legal arguments ongoing I'd say. It's an especially grey area because the Stewards decided no investigation necessary so RBR arguing there's nothing to review. Interested to see how this one will turn out. It may set an important precedent.

[F1nKS]

Some fancy legal arguments ongoing I'd say. It's an especially grey area because the Stewards decided no investigation necessary so RBR arguing there's nothing to review. Interested to see how this one will turn out. It may set an important precedent.

So one of the stories I read today was that they were only going to review the steward's decision of whether to investigate, not review the actual incident.

I'm not sure if this is really true or not because I have also seen other stories going the other way. There is no real journalism, just click bait stuff and everybody wanting some drama.

[The Black Knight]

So one of the stories I read today was that they were only going to review the steward's decision of whether to investigate, not review the actual incident.

I'm not sure if this is really true or not because I have also seen other stories going the other way. There is no real journalism, just click bait stuff and everybody wanting some drama.

Right of review denied. No surprise but I think they need yo be consistent now moving forward. Their decision to not even investigate Max is embarrassing and laughable.

[Nitrodaze]

Right of review denied. No surprise but I think they need yo be consistent now moving forward. Their decision to not even investigate Max is embarrassing and laughable.

The general argument behind the scenes was, there were no net losses to Hamilton or Mercedes. And a review is likely to have an impact on the relative point differences between both parties and would be adverse to Verstappen and Redbull.

While we can appreciate these points of view, trust and confidence in the steward's office are at their all-time low. And they have set a very dangerous precedent here which they are now required to be very consistent on. As it stands, drivers are allowed to run attacking drivers clean off the track and it does not matter if they go off the track in the process.

I would take a bet of a 100 to one that the stewards would not be consistent on this issue. As they have opened up a pandora box for all manner of defending at the corners. The incompetence of the first decision has now created the sort of foundation for the inconsistency that we have come to find with them, as they would later find at some point that they would have to reign in on the ensuing waywardness that this decision shall produce.

I personally think Masi should resign. He is unfit for the job. This crap is happening and has happened repeatedly on his watch. I am sure anyone picked at random on this forum would do a better job at less money too.

[truefan72]

Right of review denied. No surprise but I think they need yo be consistent now moving forward. Their decision to not even investigate Max is embarrassing and laughable.

yup. It truly is laughable. They have the onboard now and then simply state they decided that they don't want to investigate. Rather than not review. Because if they did review, Max would be getting a penalty.
But worse yet it has now established a dangerous precedent, it is completely fine to get passed and divebomb your opponent and send them and yourself off the track. Then maintain your lead over them. OK got it!

[truefan72]

The general argument behind the scenes was, there were no net losses to Hamilton or Mercedes. And a review is likely to have an impact on the relative point differences between both parties and would be adverse to Verstappen and Redbull.

While we can appreciate these points of view, trust and confidence in the steward's office are at their all-time low. And they have set a very dangerous precedent here which they are now required to be very consistent on. As it stands, drivers are allowed to run attacking drivers clean off the track and it does not matter if they go off the track in the process.

I would take a bet of a 100 to one that the stewards would not be consistent on this issue. As they have opened up a pandora box for all manner of defending at the corners. The incompetence of the first decision has now created the sort of foundation for the inconsistency that we have come to find with them, as they would later find at some point that they would have to reign in on the ensuing waywardness that this decision shall produce.

I personally think Masi should resign. He is unfit for the job. This crap is happening and has happened repeatedly on his watch. I am sure anyone picked at random on this forum would do a better job at less money too.

I agree wholeheartedly about Masi being unfit for the job. And this is simply not just a Mercedes bias thing (although there have been enough rulings and situations to merit that aggravation)
It is the inconsistency and the seemingly incoherence/arbitrary rulings that have irked most. Not to mention the inability (or more likely deliberate ignorance) to get the appropriate data to make a proper ruling at the time. When even a one-eyed drunk could tell that it was worthy of a penalty to max. And yet in Silverstone, it took them no time to issue a drive through penalty with an even more intricate situation.
Oh well

[Firstgear]

Something stinks here. New info (on board footage) is found but they don't want to look at it because it may change a previous (uninformed) decision?????????

[Bagwan]

So , I think it would have been hard for any of the stewards to not have seen the missing footage now , so it may be that despite not officially re-opening the investigation , it may just be that they were un-swayed by it .

As I said before in an earlier post , Lewis had another option other than following the dive-bomb around the outside .
He could have out-braked him inside at that kind of speed differential .

It all became a bit academic a when Lewis got by easily later , anyway .

But , expect Lewis to get him inside next time .
He will have learned .

[Nitrodaze]

So , I think it would have been hard for any of the stewards to not have seen the missing footage now , so it may be that despite not officially re-opening the investigation , it may just be that they were un-swayed by it .

As I said before in an earlier post , Lewis had another option other than following the dive-bomb around the outside .
He could have out-braked him inside at that kind of speed differential .

It all became a bit academic a when Lewis got by easily later , anyway .

But , expect Lewis to get him inside next time .
He will have learned .

I think a huge crash is due to happen at this rate, Verstappen can afford it, but Hamilton cannot.

[The Black Knight]

So , I think it would have been hard for any of the stewards to not have seen the missing footage now , so it may be that despite not officially re-opening the investigation , it may just be that they were un-swayed by it .

As I said before in an earlier post , Lewis had another option other than following the dive-bomb around the outside .
He could have out-braked him inside at that kind of speed differential .

It all became a bit academic a when Lewis got by easily later , anyway .

But , expect Lewis to get him inside next time .
He will have learned .

It's not academic because a 5 second penalty for Max would have demoted him to 3rd, a 3 point swing that could be crucial in the outcome of the championship. It's like a goal being disallowed for offside and the team not making the knockout stages by one goal difference. It matters and Mercedes has every right to feel aggrieved.

[Firstgear]

So , I think it would have been hard for any of the stewards to not have seen the missing footage now , so it may be that despite not officially re-opening the investigation , it may just be that they were un-swayed by it .
.
If that's the case, they should open the investigation for the sake of transparency and for future clarification of what is and is not acceptable driving. I also agree with BK about a possible penalty of 5 sec making a difference.

[Nitrodaze]

So , I think it would have been hard for any of the stewards to not have seen the missing footage now , so it may be that despite not officially re-opening the investigation , it may just be that they were un-swayed by it.

Steve Wonder would see the error in Verstappen's driving if he were in the steward's office at the time. Now, they were confronted with two equally unpleasant outcomes if they admit Verstappen was in error.

Firstly, to say Verstappen was in error, they have to admit that they have incompetently arrived at their decision, since they should have waited for all necessary video feeds to be collected and reviewed all of them carefully before arriving at a decision. Unfortunately, they arrived at a decision prematurely and created an aberration to the rules concerning racing conduct while defending at a corner

Secondly, doing the right decision at this late stage has become political and more punitive than if it was done during the race which would have allowed Verstappen the opportunity to recover from it. He was never going to win the race, but he could have recovered back to second in spite of the penalty.

In my eyes, they are crap and not worthy of any respect.

[Zico]

It's not academic because a 5 second penalty for Max would have demoted him to 3rd, a 3 point swing that could be crucial in the outcome of the championship. It's like a goal being disallowed for offside and the team not making the knockout stages by one goal difference. It matters and Mercedes has every right to feel aggrieved.

Regardless of them not having the onboard footage of Max (which incidentally didn't look particularly damning IMO) it was still clear that Max passed illegally and so should have been made to give the place back.
If the stewards had done their job correctly Max should have been ordered to give the place back immediately but because they didn't do that, they would probably have to have given a retrospective 5 sec penalty which would have put him in 3rd... which would have been the Stewards fault for not ruling on it straight away.

If Lewis hadn't won I absolutely would support a retrospective 5 sec penalty now but Lewis went on to win so its no longer an issue in my eyes.

The only real harm done is the Stewards thought process's and refusal to investigate rightly being called into question which makes them appear to be biased which is obviously not good for the sport.

[airshifter]

Right of review denied. No surprise but I think they need yo be consistent now moving forward. Their decision to not even investigate Max is embarrassing and laughable.

Agreed.

They have been inconsistent in the past as well, but now they seem to be putting a stamp on the absolute right to be inconsistent.

With the amount of information they have available these days any such incident should be investigated. Most of the decisions should be relatively quick and any penalty applied should be consistent as well.

[Nitrodaze]

Agreed.

They have been inconsistent in the past as well, but now they seem to be putting a stamp on the absolute right to be inconsistent.

With the amount of information they have available these days any such incident should be investigated. Most of the decisions should be relatively quick and any penalty applied should be consistent as well.

I feel they are damaging the formula. If they cannot adjudicate the rules in a consistent and fair manner, they turn the whole show into a joke. The application of the rules correctly is a very important component of the enjoyment of the show. We have a very high standard of engineering and driving in "state of the art" racing cars. And we couple that with sub-standard reasoning in the interpretation of the rules and enforcement of the driving standards. How is that not farcical.

Somebody should sack Masi and his bunch of jokers.

[Bagwan]

If Max had managed to stay on track , I believe he would have gotten a penalty , or , at least have been asked to "give the place back" .
I put that in quotes to denote that it isn't really clearly that way , as Lewis was only momentarily ahead as they came in .

Max was actually ahead as they passed the apex of the corner , and that is generally seen as giving that driver priority , as long as he leaves room for his opponent if he knows he is alongside .
But , not only did he not give room , he drove straight on , eventually leaving the track .

And , that's the catch . Had he not been ahead , Lewis would have likely turned in , and Max may have taken him out .
But with Max ahead and seemingly obviously too fast to make it without leaving the track , his last ditch effort was to run deep and hope Hamilton followed him around , instead of ducking inside .

I wonder if it would feel better to all of you if he had locked them up on the way through steaming up the inside .


I would also submit that Max might have driven differently to escape a time penalty had one been applied before the end .

[truefan72]

If that's the case, they should open the investigation for the sake of transparency and for future clarification of what is and is not acceptable driving. I also agree with BK about a possible penalty of 5 sec making a difference.

did they not give Hamilton a 3 grid drop for Austria after reviewing the 360cam footage days later?
The whole thing is joke.
Oh well

[Nitrodaze]

If Max had managed to stay on track , I believe he would have gotten a penalty , or , at least have been asked to "give the place back" .
I put that in quotes to denote that it isn't really clearly that way , as Lewis was only momentarily ahead as they came in .

Max was actually ahead as they passed the apex of the corner , and that is generally seen as giving that driver priority , as long as he leaves room for his opponent if he knows he is alongside .
But , not only did he not give room , he drove straight on , eventually leaving the track .

And , that's the catch . Had he not been ahead , Lewis would have likely turned in , and Max may have taken him out .
But with Max ahead and seemingly obviously too fast to make it without leaving the track , his last ditch effort was to run deep and hope Hamilton followed him around , instead of ducking inside .

I wonder if it would feel better to all of you if he had locked them up on the way through steaming up the inside .


I would also submit that Max might have driven differently to escape a time penalty had one been applied before the end .

Neither scenario you describe elevates the fact that his conduct was below the driving standards of the formula. A different kind of bad does not change the fact that it was not acceptable and a half-decent team of stewards would have seen that.

What we have seen at Brazil suggests those stewards are in someone's pocket. It is too obviously so.

[Nitrodaze]

did they not give Hamilton a 3 grid drop for Austria after reviewing the 360cam footage days later?
The whole thing is joke.
Oh well

My point exactly, these stewards are on the take.

[Zico]

I wish you guys were as scathing on Lewis whenever his driving is sub par.

[Bagwan]

Neither scenario you describe elevates the fact that his conduct was below the driving standards of the formula. A different kind of bad does not change the fact that it was not acceptable and a half-decent team of stewards would have seen that.

What we have seen at Brazil suggests those stewards are in someone's pocket. It is too obviously so.

Steaming into a corner too fast does not merit a penalty .
If you are ahead when entering , but know your opponent is beside you , you are obligated to leave a car's width between you and the edge of the track .
But , if you cannot stay on track yourself as a result of too much speed , it kind of negates the possibility to allow space at all .

It opens an impossible Pandora's box situation for the stewards as the driver can say it was a mistake to slide through , even though the mistake could easily be interpreted as a workable defense .

Had Hamilton turned in , he likely would have taken a penalty .
If Lewis had been ahead at the apex , Max would have been in for a penalty , and likely would have taken out the both of them .

But , as I said before , I think the annoying thing for Lewis should be that he missing out on getting the pass done inside Max as he steamed by .

And , by the way , it seems like that is the already in place solution to this desperate gambit of Max's .
You either believe that he's going to be able to stay on track and drive around the outside , or brake hard as he slides through , and , strangely , they all know this counter-move already .



Rather than Accusing the stewards of being on the take , I prefer to try to understand how they might have come to the conclusion to which they came .

[Nitrodaze]

I wish you guys were as scathing on Lewis whenever his driving is sub par.

I can assure you l shall give full beans with my criticism if he messes up.

[Nitrodaze]

Steaming into a corner too fast does not merit a penalty .
If you are ahead when entering , but know your opponent is beside you , you are obligated to leave a car's width between you and the edge of the track .
But , if you cannot stay on track yourself as a result of too much speed , it kind of negates the possibility to allow space at all .

It opens an impossible Pandora's box situation for the stewards as the driver can say it was a mistake to slide through , even though the mistake could easily be interpreted as a workable defense .

These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. And they are paid a stupendous amount of money for that reason. Track limits are defined to require drivers to manoeuvre through the tracks without straying beyond the track limits. Hence, Verstappen is expected to approach a corner at the appropriate speed to ensure that he exits the corner without straying from the track. If you can agree with this point, then it is obvious to you; l hope. That Verstappen is expected not to be steaming into a corner too fast such that he loses control enough to cause him to stray significantly off the track. The fact that he did would suggest that he acted intentionally to exceed the track limit as a means of preventing the attacking driver from overtaking him in the corner.

The question now is, "Is it now ok not to yield to a car that is clearly ahead at the approach to the corner by carrying excess speed into the apex in such a way as to stray off the track and causing the other driver to take avoiding action to prevent a collision by also straying off the track? "

This new position has the potential of bringing F1 defensive actions to a place that mortally endangers any attacking driver. It was great that the corner in question had a vast run-off area. If we imagine for a moment that it didn't, can you stop for a moment to wonder what might have ensued? Senna had what looked like a routine run-off into the barriers and surprising died from the incident. The steward's decision shows the stewards office and the racing director have a very poor appreciation of the dangerous consequences of the sanction that they have now given the drivers.

I wonder what they expect, do they expect all the other drivers to be very good boys and get out of the way of any driver with a "do or die " approach to racing. No way! It only invites all drivers to man up and take their driving to another lever of aggression when they have to pass any driver defending in this manner. The end product is more dangerous accidents and costly crashes which would make the budget cap unreasonable.



Had Hamilton turned in , he likely would have taken a penalty .
If Lewis had been ahead at the apex , Max would have been in for a penalty , and likely would have taken out the both of them .

But , as I said before , I think the annoying thing for Lewis should be that he missing out on getting the pass done inside Max as he steamed by .

If Hamilton had been ahead, Verstappen would have crashed into him as he did when the Redbull ended up on top of the Mercedes a while back. And the dodgy stewards would also not have penalized him. It would have been a win situation for Verstappen as he would have taken out the competition, kept the points gap alive to the next race and not been penalized in the procerss.

I don't understand why you think Hamilton should have had the pass done on the inside. Such a move is only available if he was behind on the entry to the corner. Since he was significantly ahead, and Verstappen has chosen to brake later to be ahead at the apex, his only real option was to try to overtake on the outside. With the expectation that Verstappen would genuinely try to drive around the corner within the track limits while giving the obligatory car's width.

Verstappen wanted Hamilton to turn in so that they would tangle in a race ending way for both parties. That was his precise aim. Don't you get it!



And , by the way , it seems like that is the already in place solution to this desperate gambit of Max's .
You either believe that he's going to be able to stay on track and drive around the outside , or brake hard as he slides through , and , strangely , they all know this counter-move already .

Rather than Accusing the stewards of being on the take , I prefer to try to understand how they might have come to the conclusion to which they came.

If there already is a solution, l fail to see it in action at Sao Paolo. The point is he did it and got away with it. SO THERE IS NO SOLUTION.

I am not interested in how they arrived at this farcical decision. I am not stupid, l can analyse in detail with the limited information available. And the verdict portrays very clear evidence of double standards. It is glaring out of character from what we have ever experienced from the steward's office at any point of F1's history. They were either pissed out of their brains when they arrived at that verdict or they are corrupt. There is no middle road here. Not unless they have let the cleaners decide on their behalf.

[Zico]

I can assure you l shall give full beans with my criticism if he messes up.

If? :D Like he never has?

[Nitrodaze]

If? :D Like he never has?

Having a dig again Zic! When do does if that makes you happy.

[Bagwan]

These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. And they are paid a stupendous amount of money for that reason. Track limits are defined to require drivers to manoeuvre through the tracks without straying beyond the track limits. Hence, Verstappen is expected to approach a corner at the appropriate speed to ensure that he exits the corner without straying from the track. If you can agree with this point, then it is obvious to you; l hope. That Verstappen is expected not to be steaming into a corner too fast such that he loses control enough to cause him to stray significantly off the track. The fact that he did would suggest that he acted intentionally to exceed the track limit as a means of preventing the attacking driver from overtaking him in the corner.

The question now is, "Is it now ok not to yield to a car that is clearly ahead at the approach to the corner by carrying excess speed into the apex in such a way as to stray off the track and causing the other driver to take avoiding action to prevent a collision by also straying off the track? "

This new position has the potential of bringing F1 defensive actions to a place that mortally endangers any attacking driver. It was great that the corner in question had a vast run-off area. If we imagine for a moment that it didn't, can you stop for a moment to wonder what might have ensued? Senna had what looked like a routine run-off into the barriers and surprising died from the incident. The steward's decision shows the stewards office and the racing director have a very poor appreciation of the dangerous consequences of the sanction that they have now given the drivers.

I wonder what they expect, do they expect all the other drivers to be very good boys and get out of the way of any driver with a "do or die " approach to racing. No way! It only invites all drivers to man up and take their driving to another lever of aggression when they have to pass any driver defending in this manner. The end product is more dangerous accidents and costly crashes which would make the budget cap unreasonable.



If Hamilton had been ahead, Verstappen would have crashed into him as he did when the Redbull ended up on top of the Mercedes a while back. And the dodgy stewards would also not have penalized him. It would have been a win situation for Verstappen as he would have taken out the competition, kept the points gap alive to the next race and not been penalized in the procerss.

I don't understand why you think Hamilton should have had the pass done on the inside. Such a move is only available if he was behind on the entry to the corner. Since he was significantly ahead, and Verstappen has chosen to brake later to be ahead at the apex, his only real option was to try to overtake on the outside. With the expectation that Verstappen would genuinely try to drive around the corner within the track limits while giving the obligatory car's width.

Verstappen wanted Hamilton to turn in so that they would tangle in a race ending way for both parties. That was his precise aim. Don't you get it!



If there already is a solution, l fail to see it in action at Sao Paolo. The point is he did it and got away with it. SO THERE IS NO SOLUTION.

I am not interested in how they arrived at this farcical decision. I am not stupid, l can analyse in detail with the limited information available. And the verdict portrays very clear evidence of double standards. It is glaring out of character from what we have ever experienced from the steward's office at any point of F1's history. They were either pissed out of their brains when they arrived at that verdict or they are corrupt. There is no middle road here. Not unless they have let the cleaners decide on their behalf.

That was a very typical response .

But , not much about that situation was clear , except , perhaps , your penchant for attempting to make something black and white of something very grey .

[Nitrodaze]

That was a very typical response .

But , not much about that situation was clear , except , perhaps , your penchant for attempting to make something black and white of something very grey .

It was clearly more like yellow and we all saw the cars on it.