Silly Season 2022 [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

EstWRC

17th August 2021, 10:49

2022 prediciton from me

Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT

#69 Rovanperä Kalle - Halttunen Jonne
#33 Evans Elfyn - Martin Scott
#4 Lappi Esapekka - Ferm Janne/ #17 Ogier Sébastien - Ingrassia Julien
#18 Katsuta Takamoto - Barritt Daniel

Hyundai Shell Mobis WRT

#8 Tänak Ott - Järveoja Martin
#11 Neuville Thierry - Wydaeghe Martijn
#6 Dani Sordo/ #2 Solberg Oliver - Johnston Aaron

M-Sport Ford WRT

#42 Breen Craig - Nagle Paul
#16 Fourmaux Adrien - Jamoul Renaud
#44 Greensmith Gus - Patterson Chris
Gryazin? Loeb? Mikkelsen?

mknight

17th August 2021, 11:23

As I said before I doubt Adamo will go for that combination (Sordo+Solberg) in 3rd car. Not after both are having issues last few rallies. Some more starts for Solberg in 4th car for sure, but not as 3rd scoring car.

At MSport pretty much any crazy combination is possible.

Ideal sporting-wise would be 2 of Lappi/Mikkelsen/Breen and Fourmaux. But that's very likely not going to happen.

Lancia Stratos

17th August 2021, 13:14

There will be one, and possibly two, different co-drivers in there.

Danny0405

17th August 2021, 13:42

For Toyota, the game seems over (Evans + Rovanpera + Lappi/Ogier + Katsuta), the only question remaining is how many rallies Ogier will do next year. I would have preferred Lappi in a full-time Puma seat but the relations with M-Sport seem complicated since last year. And for Toyota, Lappi is a no-brainer (best driver without contract with convincing Rally2 stints this year, he knows the team and he was in a WRC car in 2020).

For M-Sport, they need absolutely a consistent driver and, even if I’m not a fan, Breen is the best pick remaining today (still running in WRC cars, some podiums and his years with Citroen give an idea of his minimum level on a full-year basis and he may have improved) if we exclude Lappi. If Breen do not sign with M-Sport, it will be a very difficult season for them. For M-Sport, I do not think it makes sense to pay a second consistent experienced driver in addition to Breen, they should more focus on the quality of the car.

The issue is how much Hyundai is keen to retain Breen and what would Breen do if Hyundai offers him a full-time seat?
Personnally, if I was Adamo, I wouldn’t offer him a full-time job because I think that with the available drivers remaining, you can have better results with a shared 3rd car strategy than with a full-time Breen so I would let Breen go to M-Sport.
In spite of his age and his last results, Sordo is a no-brainer for me considering his profile (tarmac + some gravel events) whereas almost all the other drivers available are better on fast gravel and snow (Suninen, Mikkelsen, Ostberg, Solberg). Then, to do the rest of the season, the most logical would be Solberg (potential but still not consistent) or Mikkelsen (knows the team but 2 years out of a WRC car).

My personal wish considering the elements almost set:

Toyota:
Evans - Rovanpera - Ogier (3 rallies)/Lappi
4th car for Katsuta

Hyundai
Neuville - Tänak - Sordo/Mikkelsen
4th car for Solberg

M-Sport
Breen - Fourmaux
3rd car shared between Loeb (a couple of rallies) + 1 or 2 young paying drivers (Loubet, Greensmith, Gryazin, Suninen, Bulacia).

EstWRC

17th August 2021, 16:26

There will be one, and possibly two, different co-drivers in there.

and the candidates are?

AnttiL

18th August 2021, 12:53

https://www.is.fi/ralli/art-2000008199890.html

Suninen likely out from M-Sport, says Jouhki

lmmjvss

18th August 2021, 13:51

Peter Solberg to replace Adamo at Hyundai! Thats my weird bet for 2022

AnttiL

18th August 2021, 15:19

Peter Solberg to replace Adamo at Hyundai! Thats my weird bet for 2022

And Tommi Mäkinen will start a new team with Mitsubishi

EstWRC

18th August 2021, 15:29

and Markko Märtin will take over M-sport

er88

24th August 2021, 12:24

More on the rumours of Breen to Msport.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/i-do-have-something-concrete-the-latest-on-breens-future/

macebig

24th August 2021, 14:45

If Breen is indeed ensured of a full season, it's the Puma. Adamo won't drop Sordo and Oliver and it's doubtful Hyundai will have 4 new i20 ready from Monte. There is also Loubet and Huttunen who may want a seat for a rally or 2. Math doesn't add up for Hyundai.

mknight

24th August 2021, 16:12

I think Adamo waits to see how Sordo does with yet another co-driver before offering Breen anything. (Maybe also how Solberg does in Greece)
None of Solberg/Huttunen/Loubet have a realistic chance of defeating Ogier/Evans/Rovanpera/(Lappi) on speed at almost any rally next season. So that would be a clear disadvantage. Adamo doesn't voluntarily go to rallies with a clear disadvantage.

The Dirtfish article is actually more of a pause of Breen to MSport rumors. Seemingly confirming nothing is signed.
Meaning Malcolm didn't rush to "snatch" Breen before Adamo makes his mind.
Obviously it's entirely possible he ends there after a while.

240RS

25th August 2021, 10:51

pantealex

25th August 2021, 16:38

M3 Jambo

25th August 2021, 16:39

AndyRAC

25th August 2021, 17:14

There is a lot of talk about a potential Seb Loeb comeback in 2022. Always thought highly of Seb - the man and the driver. At his peak, he made rallying look easy - won just about everything. However, like Manny Pacquaio in boxing this week, I feel he may be going on one bout too many. Wonder how many of us feel the same??

It's 2022, not 2002, or 2012; his time has been. It's time to move on; yes, he may offer something, in terms of testing & feedback - but there comes a time when you have to go with younger current drivers. Imagine how dispiriting it would be for a younger driver to be overlooked as Loeb got a seat, even for a part season? What next? A Petter, Mikko or Marcus comeback........

denkimi

25th August 2021, 22:24

the only thing loeb should do now is support and coach young drivers. he has no more purpose in the wrc.

Fitz

25th August 2021, 22:53

mknight

26th August 2021, 05:39

Winning Catalunya 2018 was enough for me. I certainly don't "desperately" want to see Loeb drive again.
Sure if he can drive a few rounds as 4th car it's ok, but if he is taking the seat from someone like Breen, Mikkelsen or Suninen it feels wrong.

doubled1978

26th August 2021, 07:06

Breen - I suspect he is holding out for a full season with Hyundai, but if that doesn’t look likely could switch to MSport. Personally I think going up up against Neuville & Tanak for a full season in the same car could be difficult for him, but credit to him for backing himself.

Loeb - the man himself has always said he is only interested in a few events, so I would be amazed if anything else is being talked about, but a few events and some testing could be good for both parties. How all that will fit in with the driver roster I have no idea. It sort of feels like they would like Breen/Fourmaux/Greensmith with Loeb and maybe Suninen in a fourth car on some events, but who knows. It’ll all become clear soon enough I’m sure.

AnttiL

26th August 2021, 07:20

Sulland

26th August 2021, 09:28

If Loeb have an itch to drive in WRC, he should do as the rest of those without a contract, compete in a Rally2 car.
The competition in RC2 is in many ways harder than RC1!

bomber21

26th August 2021, 09:53

If Loeb have an itch to drive in WRC, he should do as the rest of those without a contract, compete in a Rally2 car.
The competition in RC2 is in many ways harder than RC1!
If I was a 9 time WRC champion, I would not accept to drive Rally2 cars.

Fast Eddie WRC

26th August 2021, 17:35

Suggestions of a sign Breen's not staying with Hyundai...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/erc/breens-erc-spell-with-mrf-could-be-over/

denkimi

26th August 2021, 17:40

I still think there is something magical about Loeb. I’d love to see him at M-Sport.

I believe he helped Hyundai but the DNA of that i20 was intrinsically wrong. This new Puma with M-Sports knack of hitting the ground running with new regs might just be the final fling at top level competition we all desperately want to see.
Remember how nobody except loeb and later on ogier was able to drive the citroen fast?

I don't think loeb is good at developing a car. Yes, one that suits his own very specific driving, but thats not what msport needs.

mknight

26th August 2021, 17:57

Remember how nobody except loeb and later on ogier was able to drive the citroen fast?

.

You mean C3?
Meeke won two rallies
Mikkelsen got 2nd place in only start on tarmac
Lappi got multiple podiums
Østberg got two podiums

Problem was that nobody could drive it consistently fast over multiple rallies. Not even Ogier ( Germany 2019 among others).

If you mean DS3 or C4 the list of drivers who drove it fast is even longer.

mknight

26th August 2021, 18:11

Suggestions of a sign Breen's not staying with Hyundai...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/erc/breens-erc-spell-with-mrf-could-be-over/

We talked about it when the news first came about Huttunen driving.

There are few (big?) holes if that was true:

- Surely Breen will drive for Hyundai in WRC in Finland? No way Adamo will let him go before that. So he would still be "Hyundai driver" until then.

- It would make sense if Hyundai doesn't want Breen to drive the new Rally2. But appart from the fact that Breen drove it in January/February, Huttunen drives Barum with the old car

So it's all kinds of weird.

If I were to bet maybe I'd say Breen asked for some/more? money after the podium in Liepaja and good WRC results. But it might be something completely different.

Eli

26th August 2021, 20:04

doubled1978

26th August 2021, 21:41

And going against Tanak & Neuville with a different car that as someone described, there's no guarantee that it'll be the fastest out of the block?
It's a risk either way you look at it, the upside to staying with Hyundai is to be in a more familiar surroundings when starting at scratch with these new Rally1 cars.

Either way is a gamble because nobody knows which car will perform best, and honestly it’s a toss of a coin I suspect, with the likelihood that the Toyota and Hyundai will pull away over time as before.
If I was him, I would be tempted with the Ford because it’s likely he would be the number 1 and stand to benefit if they have got a good car. At Hyundai, he will be number 3 if the full season is offered, so good car or not, he’s unlikely to win.

MartinH3000

27th August 2021, 08:47

Breen is in the Hyundai for Finland anyway.

rallyfiend

27th August 2021, 09:24

For sure Breen has a contract with M-Sport for at least next year...

The speculation can end.

Question is who other than Fourmaux also has a contract....

EstWRC

27th August 2021, 09:34

Breen is in the Hyundai for Finland anyway.

exactly, like there would be an another option, there isnt

Danny0405

27th August 2021, 13:48

For M-Sport, a good deal would be for the third car:
- Mikkelsen 5 rallyes (+ 7 Rallyes in Rally2)
- Loeb 3 rallyes
- another one, either Gryazin, Suninen, Greensmith, Bulacia, ... => 5 rallyes (+ 7 rallyes in Rally2)

It Would give almost a complete season for Mikkelsen + M-Sport clearly need to hire an experienced driver to end their bad streak in Rally2 and Mikkelsen, even if it is not his best season, is currently title contender in both ERC and WRC-2. For example, Citroen was able to improve in WRC-2 with Ostberg because there were quite nowhere at the beginning with Lefebvre.
He does not give enough guarantees (especially because of his two years out of the game) to be the number 1 driver but a program like this would be good.

However, Mikkelsen should also be a strong contender for Hyundai shared 3rd car if Breen goes to M-Sport

skarderud

27th August 2021, 16:37

Sunninen quit M-sport today.

https://www.facebook.com/124289007599337/posts/4812155545479303/

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

mknight

27th August 2021, 16:55

Seems a bit weird that it's so "sudden". I was particularly looking forward to him driving vs Gryazin in same car.

Anyway this means he will likely start with some WRC this year, options:

- "paydrive" at Toyota because of Jouhki
- Adamos "trumph card" for Finland as a 4th car, if he does well he will drive instead of Loubet afterwards/next year

- (most crazy) Breen won't drive in Finland for Hyundai and Suninen replaces him immediatelly

27th August 2021, 17:16

Maybe there is 3rd Hyundai available, if Breen is going to M-Sport. Sordo is there, but no way that Adamo is sharing the 3rd car with Solberg and Huttunen. Not enough experience to drive Manufacturer´s points. Maybe Solberg in Sweden, but no other events. Suninen would be good with Sordo. A new WRC start for him...

mknight

27th August 2021, 17:22

My point was that since he left now while already entered for Greece he likely has some real plans already this year. (to try to convince someone like Hyundai to hire him for next year)

27th August 2021, 17:33

My point was that since he left now while already entered for Greece he likely has some real plans already this year. (to try to convince someone like Hyundai to hire him for next year)

Yes, they have already a plan. There was nothing left at M-Sport, because the car was so bad. Now he is able to show what is possible with the competitive car...

AnttiL

27th August 2021, 17:35

Good decision, he wasn’t going to show anything in the Fiesta this year. Better to pull off a Lappi style WRC2 showdown in Finland…or even in a hired Yaris!

mknight

27th August 2021, 17:48

Good decision, he wasn’t going to show anything in the Fiesta this year. Better to pull off a Lappi style WRC2 showdown in Finland…or even in a hired Yaris!

If he wanted to do good results in WRC2 Greece was great opportunity on a style of rally where the Rally2 Fiesta likely is competetive ( was in Portugal anyway). Against probably best competition in WRC2 for rest of the year.

Therefore it has to be a WRC start (in Finland?). Only real question is with whom.

Fast Eddie WRC

27th August 2021, 18:31

Sounds like its come to the crunch point and Suninen needs to find a way to prove (if) he deserves a 2022 WRC drive. The chances at M-Sport must've looked over with Breen or whoever now lined up.

AnttiL

27th August 2021, 18:32

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/suninen-wasnt-part-of-m-sports-2022-plans/

Fourmaux continues in the car for the rest of the season, and Wilson says that Suninen wasn't going to continue for 2022

er88

27th August 2021, 18:38

Not sure why Malcolm is reluctant to just announce Fourmaux is driving a full season in 22. Every man and his dog knows that's the case

27th August 2021, 18:42

Not sure why Malcolm is reluctant to just announce Fourmaux is driving a full season in 22. Every man and his dog knows that's the case

Malcolm has not yet received a payment from FFSA and Red Bull, so he can not confirm it. It´s always the case that he is keen on drivers who are able to bring him a lot of money...

mknight

27th August 2021, 18:49

Yeah, Malcolm probably wants to push for more external money, so he is actually happy if Fourmaux doesn't do very well during rest of the year

Also with no drivers to drive in WRC2 now it seems likely Gryazin will drive Fiesta for rest of the year.

macebig

27th August 2021, 18:51

Suninen screwed up big time this year. He only had to bring the car home in one piece and he kept flying off the road. He was probably told he's out for 2022 and decided for an early termination. His only hope is Toyota 3rd car if they don't bring back Lappi (or Ogier has another change of mind and goes full time again).

pantealex

27th August 2021, 20:15

They had to do it now / couldn´t wait after Acropolis because

Entry to TBA Rally Finland closes next Tuesday and entries will be published next Friday (yes, next week)

New (sponsor) name of Rally Finland will be announced also next Tuesday

I´m sure Suninen will be entered to Finland with competitive car...

1+1 could be 2 this time. Name of rally and sponsor of Suninen = Same company, who knows!

TypeR

27th August 2021, 20:25

Can't wait to see Suninen (in a ,,competetive'' car) winning rally Finland by at least 30s gap..

AnttiL

27th August 2021, 20:31

Can't wait to see Suninen (in a ,,competetive'' car) winning rally Finland by at least 30s gap..

That’s what he needs to do?

TypeR

27th August 2021, 20:50

well why not if.. only slow Fiesta has been holding him back..
(1 stage win during last 1.5 season)

Danny0405

27th August 2021, 23:01

Quite surprised he leaves M-Sport this «*early*» in the season, especially because he still seems to stay with Buagsport (and also it seems he will not even do Acropolis where he was entered); I thought he would do at least Finland in RC1 to keep good relations with Jouhki at least.

From MW’s interview, I understood the trigger was that M-Sport told Buagsport they will not retain him for 2022 so that Jouhki decides it makes no sense anymore to give money to M-Sport to drive with them.
Probably also the fact that he is not anymore more in the game for the WRC2 championship since Belgium has played a significant part.

I would be quite surprised he obtains a good opportunity for a show-off in the end of the season in a RC1 car.
If Toyota has a 5th car to put in Finland (but I don’t think so), it would be more logical to put Lappi in it as he is the main contender for next year.
And if Hyundai has a seat available for Finland (either by substituting Breen or Loubet but it would be a non-sense to «*fire*» Breen before he has done Finland), Solberg or even Mikkelsen would be candidate for the spot.

Maybe in a RC2 car (for example under Toksport registration to try to take some points to Ostberg in the championship and to prepare next season).
It will be quite hard for him to get it back in the main category. Next year, if we say Breen will have a spot somewhere anyway and Lappi to Toyota is a lock, I would not even put Suninen in my top 3 of remaining available drivers; quite a disappointing career so far when we remember how fast he succeeded in his adaptation from R2 to R5 + his two stints Poland+Finland 2017 in WRC.
But in rally, never say never.

EstWRC

27th August 2021, 23:18

sadly i think his career is kinda over

i had high hopes with him after the brilliant debut rallies in 17'...but it seems to me its not only the car, but also himself that got stuck with the development over the years...you know, not everybody excels in the main class, i remember having the same experience with Kevin Abbring, showed so much promise in lower class but didnt live up when he got his chance.

he could prove me totally wrong but i doubt so but i really hope so

KertR

28th August 2021, 01:21

If they decided to leave M-Sport so quickly and firmly, sure there is a secure plan for future.

Toyota would be a logical choice, but would they bring a 5th car to the game??? Njaah dont think so.

Hyundai for sure, Teemu would be fast in Finland for a debute at Hyundai, but is he worth to replace Breen or Loubet? I think no one can anserw that. Tänak at Hyundai is all but competive, yes he has speed at surtain points, but he cant bring wins... Such a shame....... But there must have been a certain reason why left Toyota, but defantly, it cost him +2 titles.

What happens to Teemu, I think soon there will be news.

Sure he has had speed even in Fiesta, but maybe, it has come from such a effort, that the result is crash, because the car is not competitive at normal level compare to Toyota and Hyundai.

Was it 2020 Moza early stages where he was noticeably fastest from the others, but before end of the stage, just flew out of the track. It shows guy has the speed, but with Fiesta, he had strenght so much, that he went out of limit. Maybe, with competitive car, there could be results, but who nows, Tänak with Hyundai.... Just cant understand how bad this can be...

AnttiL

28th August 2021, 05:16

well why not if.. only slow Fiesta has been holding him back..
(1 stage win during last 1.5 season)

How about having only 1 day of testing for a whole year? Or a car that's fitted with old parts and needs to be nursed to the finish (case Estonia)?

Meanwhile, Toyota is losing to Hyundai when they test on a wrong type of road, because the setup needs to be absolutely right from the beginning. How do you do that without no testing at all?

cali

28th August 2021, 05:31

Just out of curiosity - does anyone know how much tests has had Gus and Adrien?

I think they haven't been significantly more behind the wheel than Teemu.

For me the worrying part with Teemu is that he has been too close to Gus with speed and sometimes Gus has even had the upper edge on him.

But I agree with EstWRC and looks like this could be the end of the road for Teemu in a Rally1 category. Maybe he has few outings in Rally1 left to prove himself but I see Rally2 for him if he still has motivation to continue. So far sadly Rally2 results have been also underwhelming as well although Fiesta seems to be generally slower than VW and Škoda. This ofc will be now interesting to see how Gryazin will manage with the Fiesta R5

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

mknight

28th August 2021, 06:16

The others had more tests. As a simple example before Portugal both had a day of tests.

Then Suninen went to Sardinia without ever driving on the Pirelli gravel tires and when he crashed was told (openly in media) by Millener that it was his problem. And this was applauded by people here..

Anyway I agree one of the main problems was that in Estonia Greensmith was regularly as fast or faster than him.

In WRC2 on the other hand Suninen did pretty well, matching Lappi for big part of Portugal for example. Much better than Fourmaux anyway. Problem is IT doesn't help he is better than Fourmaux in WRC2 when he is not better in WRC.

Let's remember that Suninen is actually paying in some way for his drives at MSport. And for that he gets no tests and sometimes var breaking after two stages (Estonia).

Moving on to the future. He definitely has a plan for Finland. 4th Hyundai looks by far most likely. In that case I Hope he drives a new(er) car like Solberg in Arctic and not an old hybrid like Loubet.
After that the options are 5th Toyota or Fabia or Polo in WRC2, but I see both as much less likely.

TypeR

28th August 2021, 06:29

I don't buy that ,,oh we tested on totally wrong stages''.. Not being in WRC for first season or event..
In Arctic they had Hänninen weeks before testing the whole rally..
Rovanperä and Evans both got stage wins, Rova finished 2nd. Ogier did a rookie mistake(can't blame testing).

Toyota has won 6 out of 8 event this year(including four double wins).

No matter how much they test, other teams and drivers can and will be faster sometimes..

doubled1978

28th August 2021, 06:33

I think you guys are right that he must have something lined up for Finland, and honestly it makes sense for him, as for what it is, who knows, I don’t think I’d be surprised at anything really.

mknight

28th August 2021, 06:35

AnttiL's point was that the margins at WRC are really small and everything can make that small difference, so a lack of testing (for Suninen) is a big disadvantage.

masa90

28th August 2021, 08:14

AnttiL's point was that the margins at WRC are really small and everything can make that small difference, so a lack of testing (for Suninen) is a big disadvantage.

Yeah for sure. Every year with less investment into the team, Teemus results dropped. Last year and this year the feeling in the team has followed that m-sport spiral like 14-16.

Also no testing in a sport like this?

And wow how many technical problems the team has suffered this year.

This post is not to try and "forgive" him from all the bad results. He has made really many drivingerrors this year, but still he really lost before even the start of the season. Hopefully m-sport will really be a proper team next year. This year it has felt like there has only been two carmanufacturers really. And also for sake of Breen and Formaux aswell I hope the team is a proper outfit next year.

AnttiL

28th August 2021, 08:14

Anyway I agree one of the main problems was that in Estonia Greensmith was regularly as fast or faster than him.

He had to slow down or the water pump would break

cali

28th August 2021, 08:29

Yeah I agree that too many issues with cars and the lack of testing has really badly affected Suninen's performance. We probably have no clue about his true speed.

Hopefully he will get few more chances but too few teams and many drivers competing for these seats doesn't make this challenge any easier.

Hyundai ofc is a difficult machinery and to go to Finland first time in a new and totally different car will be a challenge for sure.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

Danny0405

28th August 2021, 08:39

For me the worrying part with Teemu is that he has been too close to Gus with speed and sometimes Gus has even had the upper edge on him.

Yes, this is the main issue of Suninen’s season so far. If we exclude Arctic Rally because we know Greensmith is quite awful on snow, if we take all the cases where both drivers have made the full day, he is no faster than Greensmith. I know this calculation is not necessarily fully perfect (Road position, technical issue) but it seems quite significant for me if we add that he was not reliable in addition to that (2 crashes in the first day) + he did not make huge individual stage times compared with Fourmaux or Greensmith.
If it was against good experienced drivers, I would say that the testing would have been a sufficient reason to explain the issue; but here, the comparison is a paying driver and a rookie (which does not have really way better results than Greensmith).
+ often, both drivers had technical issues (for example in Estonia)

Each time the two M-Sport drivers made the full day this season:

Arctic Day 1: Suninen -31.3s (Greensmith 2nd)
Arctic Day 2: Suninen -41.2s (Greensmith 2nd)
Arctic Day 3: Suninen -17.9s (Greensmith 2nd)

Croatia Day 1: Fourmaux -7.0s (Greensmith 2nd)
Croatia Day 2: Fourmaux -47.3s (Greensmith 2nd)
Croatia Day 3: Greensmith -5.2s (Fourmaux 2nd)

Portugal Day 1: Greensmith -31.2s (Fourmaux 2nd)
Portugal Day 2: Fourmaux -37.6s (Greensmith 2nd)
Portugal Day 3: Greensmith -17.1s (Fourmaux 2nd)

Sardegna Day 3: Greensmith -5.4s (Suninen 2nd)

Safari Day 1: Greensmith -23.0s (Fourmaux 2nd)
Safari Day 2: Fourmaux -11.0s (Greensmith 2nd)
Safari Day 3: Fourmaux -21.9s (Greensmith 2nd) without the 10s penalty

Estonia Day 2: Suninen -7.3s (Greensmith 2nd)
Estonia Day 3: Greensmith -5.2s (Suninen 2nd), I exclude the Greensmith penalty and the impact of the spin for Suninen

tommeke_B

28th August 2021, 08:42

Problem with the Fiesta WRC right now is that it should be seen as in class RC1,5 rather than in the same class as the Hyundai and the Toyota... Motorsport is also a development race and it seems like M-Sport isn't participating anymore. And in terms of pre-event testing they (especially Suninen) are getting less kilometers than many RC2-drivers... Fourmaux, Suninen and Lappi (last year) were driving on and beyond the limit, only to set a stage-time 10-15s slower than the quickest. It must be hard to stay motivated that way, even if they give their all best, their performance will not be appreciated enough. Hoping to see Suninen and/or Lappi in a competitive WRC in Finland.

AnttiL

28th August 2021, 09:23

AnttiL

28th August 2021, 09:25

https://www.rallit.fi/viritteleeko-teemu-suninen-todellista-pommia-ei-ole-viela-julkistuskelpoista/

Suninen is targeting a start in Finland, like expected. Machinery not yet publicable. Also Spain would be good but short time to gather budget.

EstWRC

28th August 2021, 09:35

i dont know, the locals are fast anyway in Finland, i mean the team principals know it too and nobody wouldnt be that surprised if he shows good times there.

if he wants to really impress then Spain definitely would be a better choice.

i hope he does well, i really like the guy, his first year in WRC2 machine was awesome back in the day against more experienced guys and also the first starts with main class in 17'

TypeR

28th August 2021, 10:35

Lol.. hard to stay motivated..

jump in Tänak's 2018 and 2020 season boots..

Fourmaux has driven nice this year, showing some good times and pace with his little experience..

But okay.. if Suninen with Hyundai, will he bring home first podium for them from Finland?

Fast Eddie WRC

28th August 2021, 11:06

AnttiL

28th August 2021, 11:23

It's easy to criticise the Fiesta and M-Sport but their finances were badly hit by the pandemic and lack of full factory support.

Suninen hasnt done himself any favours on occaisions this year and his many offs and some mechanicals have been through his own fault.

Plus both Fourmaux and Greensmith have received some praise this season for some of their times and improvements and done so with much less experience in the WRC car.

I wish Teemu well and we'll see if he can reach the top level elsewhere.

Teemu stood no chance in the first place for Arctic and Estonia, the car was just too slow for the fast rallies. And the two rallies where he could have performed better, he crashed on SS1. It’s sad we didn’t get to see his pace on the rest of the rallies, or against Fourmaux.

BTW which mechanic faults were his own fault?

doubled1978

28th August 2021, 11:30

It's easy to criticise the Fiesta and M-Sport but their finances were badly hit by the pandemic and lack of full factory support.

Suninen hasnt done himself any favours on occaisions this year and his many offs and some mechanicals have been through his own fault.

Plus both Fourmaux and Greensmith have received some praise this season for some of their times and improvements and done so with much less experience in the WRC car.

I wish Teemu well and we'll see if he can reach the top level elsewhere.

I’m not sure anyone is criticising MSport or the Fiesta particularly, everyone on here is fully aware they don’t have the budget to develop as Hyundai and Toyota do, but the reality is the car is now off the pace and they aren’t spending money on it. Everyone know why, but those are the facts.

pantealex

28th August 2021, 12:20

Only way I can see Huttunen starting with Hyundai in WRC Finland is:
He gets that car for FREE
Why would Adamo give him car for FREE, considering Suninen´s results 2021 ?

TGR also hires cars and Yaris has been way better in Finland than i20. (remember that Jouhki is/was manager of Jari-Matti)

You are right that everyone knows that he is fast in Finland so for future Spain would be better but
local sponsor wants/pays him to drive in Finland.

I´m very surprised if he enters with Hyundai, it´s Yaris or Rally2 from TGS/Gardemaister (Jouhki was his manager also)

AnttiL

28th August 2021, 12:25

Also remember Hyundai has never been so good in Finland

tommeke_B

28th August 2021, 13:54

Also remember Hyundai has never been so good in Finland

Yes but a lot happened since last Rally Finland, which is more than 2 years ago now. The car was very fast in Estonia, I can't see why it couldn't be fast in Finland right now.

EstWRC

28th August 2021, 19:26

Yes but a lot happened since last Rally Finland, which is more than 2 years ago now. The car was very fast in Estonia, I can't see why it couldn't be fast in Finland right now.

exactly and also fast at Arctic this year.

Ott said already last year after Rally Finland test at Ouninpohja area that he felt they were good enough to take the fight to Toyotas.

Danny0405

29th August 2021, 00:30

From the Finnish article, it seems that the solution is a 5th Toyota in Finland for Suninen; quite surprising for me because if Toyota has a 5th car to put, Lappi would be a clearer choice for me as he is the main contender for next season’s seat. But with some money from Teemu’s team (+ a reduced cost as Toyota main facility is based in Finland) + maybe a wish to give a chance to Suninen, it might change the logic for Toyota.

Hyundai would be more surprising except if Loubet’s sponsors have decided to stop the game considering his poor performance.

mknight

29th August 2021, 04:56

Well if he is fully paying Toyota is likely cheaper and easier to get and very importantly also test before Finland.

Hyundai depends on Adamo. If he has one of his "must do something" moments he might jump on the opportunity.
That said maybe after Ypres he calmed down a bit.

Allez Andruet

29th August 2021, 16:20

IF Suninen is about to drive a WRC in Finland, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Hyundai after all. You're always compared to your teammates first and it would be a huge task for anyone to go against TGR's regular fab four in Finland even with a test day or two. It really wouldn't help Suninen's case if he was the fifth fastest Toyota. Hyundai might - only might - be a bit different in that sense. Ofcourse Suninen has no chance to match Tänak's monster pace, but maybe Neuville and Breen could be pushed in Finland. Surely that would also be against the odds, but I'm ready to call it (Suninen doing better in a Hyundai vs. his teammates) the more likely of the two options.

Danny0405

29th August 2021, 23:29

IF Suninen is about to drive a WRC in Finland, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Hyundai after all. You're always compared to your teammates first and it would be a huge task for anyone to go against TGR's regular fab four in Finland even with a test day or two

Not that convinced by this reason for especially one point: Toyota drivers will have worst road positions than Hyundai drivers in Finland.
+ the Toyota has shown better sign for a fast adaptation for a driver than the Hyundai (even if Solberg’s performance in Arctic leads to be a little more cautious on that).
And Breen in Finland with a very good road position is clearly more dangerous than Ogier with a 1st road position and his conservative title mode (and probably also more dangerous than Evans with a 2nd or 3rd position on the road).

For me, the only reason that could justify the Hyundai would be that Adamo is interested in testing Suninen for a potential 3rd shared car with Sordo in 2022.

mknight

30th August 2021, 04:20

If Suninen in Toyota is faster than Ogier and Evans who are first two on the road and likely to pushing like crazy it won't impress much. Rovanpera will likely be much faster so only Katsuta for comparison.

At Hyundai there is both Neuville (who has to push for championship) and Breen (likely) who is a direct competition for seat (at Hyundai).

AnttiL

30th August 2021, 08:36

In the scenario that Breen is off to M-Sport, Hyundai are in dire need of a fast rally specialist, so maybe Suninen and Jouhki are trying to target that indeed.

meh

30th August 2021, 09:44

In the scenario that Breen is off to M-Sport, Hyundai are in dire need of a fast rally specialist, so maybe Suninen and Jouhki are trying to target that indeed.

... but from all available drivers, why Adamo should consider Suninen?

AnttiL

30th August 2021, 10:21

... but from all available drivers, why Adamo should consider Suninen?

The available list containing Lappi, Mikkelsen, Solberg and Huttunen? Lappi likely going to Toyota, Mikkelsen possibly burnt bridges to Hyundai, Solberg and Huttunen still too young and with too little WRC experience (compared to Suninen with four seasons). But I know, it's not an easy task to prove anything in just one rally.

jonkka

30th August 2021, 11:23

Out of curiosity, why so many posts seem to put Lappi as first choice for Toyota in 2022? Is that just personal opinion or has someone who knows something given any hint towards that? Bearing in mind that Lappi's split from Toyota wasn't all that amicable. Admittedly, Mäkinen is no longer team principal there and Latvala might not carry grudge.

AnttiL

30th August 2021, 11:29

jonkka

30th August 2021, 11:52

Because Latvala has hinted so in interviews.

Ah, there it is. Thank you.

mknight

30th August 2021, 12:39

Another indicator is that he hasn't driven anything since Portugal.
If he didn't have contract he probably would show up in Estonia. By the time Finland entries are announced we will know for sure. (If he doesn't show up there either).

Toyota also usually don't announce their drivers before the end of season. Though in this case that seems a bit like a bad decision since he could start driving the new car.

EstWRC

30th August 2021, 12:51

maybe he is secretly testing it already?

denkimi

30th August 2021, 13:58

The available list containing Lappi, Mikkelsen, Solberg and Huttunen? Lappi likely going to Toyota, Mikkelsen possibly burnt bridges to Hyundai, Solberg and Huttunen still too young and with too little WRC experience (compared to Suninen with four seasons). But I know, it's not an easy task to prove anything in just one rally.
You are forgetting about ostberg. He could be a reliable points scorer, although he may not win rally's.

Fast Eddie WRC

30th August 2021, 15:15

2022 and only part-time Ogier...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-will-be-more-exciting-without-ogier-wilson/

Neuville: “Of course I want him to stay,” he told DirtFish. “We definitely need him for the full championship and I would like to keep him. He’s a real challenge and a tough guy to fight, but when you win against him, you win.”

Asked if he could see Wilson’s perspective, Neuville added: “I don’t think it will make it more interesting. The best needs to stay and he is definitely one of the best. It would not be a good time for the championship, but it’s not for us to make these decisions for him.”

Tänak’s response was more succinct: “Honestly, I don’t give a s*** what he’s doing,” he said.

AnttiL

30th August 2021, 15:26

LOL at Tänak’s response

EstWRC

30th August 2021, 18:10

i totally get the two different answers...both Ott and Thierry have said they want to win a title when Seb is still here. Ott managed it, Thierry not yet so far and i guess thats why Thierry would like him to continue.

well, we all know Tänak, that answer is so him

Danny0405

30th August 2021, 22:40

You are forgetting about ostberg. He could be a reliable points scorer, although he may not win rally's.

Interesting as a complement to Sordo and driver to still have in case of but not sure who would invest on him with such a driver market.
From what I read, he has very fresh relations with M-Sport because of the 2016 and 2017 so a return would be a surprise.
And for Hyundai, yes he is interesting with a reliable fast-gravel profile, but still, Mikkelsen also + Andreas is younger, is out of RC1 for a fewer time + Andreas knows the team (and was a contributor to the manufacturer title in 2019). So Mikkelsen would be a safer bet.

I would say his only chance would be if both Breen and Mikkelsen sign with M-Sport.
And even then, even if I personnally who choice a Sordo-Ostberg duo in that situation, I’m not sure Adamo would not try Solberg or Suninen.

Maybe if he does strong rallies in Greece and Finland

djip

31st August 2021, 08:18

Interesting as a complement to Sordo and driver to still have in case of but not sure who would invest on him with such a driver market.
From what I read, he has very fresh relations with M-Sport because of the 2016 and 2017 so a return would be a surprise.
And for Hyundai, yes he is interesting with a reliable fast-gravel profile, but still, Mikkelsen also + Andreas is younger, is out of RC1 for a fewer time + Andreas knows the team (and was a contributor to the manufacturer title in 2019). So Mikkelsen would be a safer bet.

I would say his only chance would be if both Breen and Mikkelsen sign with M-Sport.
And even then, even if I personnally who choice a Sordo-Ostberg duo in that situation, I’m not sure Adamo would not try Solberg or Suninen.

I had never really thought abot it but if your 3rd car is just aiming as a point producer backup (no need to really push for wins), then a sordo / Ostberg line up is pretty smart. You won't get much modiums, but you are 99% sure to bag ssome points and avoid the "all crashing" nightmare...
I don't see a difference between Ostberg and Mikkelsen TBH. They are pretty much the same to me experience-wise. And speed-wise you could argue that Ostberg has been doing a much better job in WRC2 lately ...

Fast Eddie WRC

31st August 2021, 18:12

Lappi said by Dirtfish to be going to share a Yaris with Ogier in 2022.

So for Suninen its either Hyundai or nothing. He could be their 'fast gravel' driver like Breen was this year and share with Sordo, assuming Breen leaves for a full-time seat at M-Sport.

Danny0405

31st August 2021, 21:43

I don't see a difference between Ostberg and Mikkelsen TBH. They are pretty much the same to me experience-wise. And speed-wise you could argue that Ostberg has been doing a much better job in WRC2 lately ...

I do not really say that Mikkelsen is better than Ostberg, at the moment it would be a close call between the two if you had to choose one of them. It is more a question of preference (personally, I would take Ostberg without context if I had to choose).

But from a Hyundai perspective, at the current moment, I think Mikkelsen would be a safer bet considering he knows the team (+ he was still there in 2019). But Ostberg could reverse this if he makes strong performances in the end of the season (by example, with class wins in Greece and Finland + winning the championship).

Still, the only pressure for Hyundai is about Breen; when the future of Breen is set and if he decides to leave, there will be no real rush for Hyundai because they have Solberg with a contract, Sordo does not seem to want to retire (and no contact for a seat with Toyota or M-Sport for him) and at least one driver will be available between Ostberg and Mikkelsen (and even Suninen). So they can wait November to make a choice and see what happen in the end of the season (especially Greece, Finland and Spain)

And clearly a Sordo-Ostberg or Sordo-Mikkelsen is a good choice for a 3rd car for the manufacturer championship.
Sordo-Suninen, Sordo-Solberg or Sordo-Huttunen are more risky choices.

The other option, already evoked by Adamo, is to abandon the shared 3rd car but, except for Breen or Lappi, I don’t think a driver in the market deserves a full-time seat.
Let’s see what happen for Breen first.

Gustav Andel

1st September 2021, 07:07

In one of the videos from the Barum Rally, it was mentioned that Adamo's position is in danger and that Andrew Jones could take his place... If there is a new boss, the approach to signing drivers may change. So we'll see :)

mknight

1st September 2021, 07:33

I wrote it yesterday in News and Rumors thread.

Breen was hired by Hyundai due to Penasse (Adamos and Breens words). But he was also seemingly on good terms with Adamo.

So a different boss might be less interested in him, but a different boss might also be less of a fan of switching 3rd drivers.
It worked great in 2020 and was the main reason for manu title. Then again in 2019 it mostly worked because Latvala and Meeke were crashing so much.
Another argument is a "long term" driver development. Katsuta for example does seem to be developing a lot and getting drivers that have podium-speed yet are happy to drive part season is getting harder imo.

AnttiL

1st September 2021, 11:14

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/hyundai-boss-hints-at-solberg-2022-wrc-graduation/6658193/

Adamo has made a decision about Solberg's future with Hyundai. What that decision is, we don't know yet.

rallyfiend

1st September 2021, 11:24

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/hyundai-boss-hints-at-solberg-2022-wrc-graduation/6658193/

Adamo has made a decision about Solberg's future with Hyundai. What that decision is, we don't know yet.

Is his decision relevant if he himself isn't there....?

Danny0405

1st September 2021, 12:55

Seems a little early anyway for Solberg even in a shared car.
The comparison with Rovanpera is not really efficient:
- Rovanpera made 7 RC2 class wins out of his last 13 WRC-2 rallies with wins against drivers such as Ostberg, Kopecky and Tidemand
- Solberg has only one class win in career (Estonia 2020 against Ostberg).

The car plays a role for sure but even in terms of Top 3 RC2 class stages, 9 over 5 rallyes this season is a little low (13 in 3 rallyes for Huttunen). And he has not proven to be very reliable in top of that.

Such a choice would be only based on what he did on the Arctic Rallye (but we have to recognize it was a good performance)

mknight

1st September 2021, 14:15

I have been saying this since it was announced that Solberg will drive WRC in Arctic.
As a first step Solberg needs to learn to perform over a whole rally (and especially when result is "expected"), not just doing a great stage time on one stage and crashing or losing 40s on next.
It doesn't matter if it's in WRC or WRC2, but in WRC2 it's a lot cheaper.

As you write this year he had one good rally... Arctic (and Rally Alba but that's hard to count as that wasn't really a "competition"). And a long string of bad or even terrible results.
He retired on 5 out of 9 starts, 4 of that were crashes and 3 of these were within first 3 stages of the rally. He didn't win a single rally he started (again disregarding Alba with Tanak penalty on purpose), and scored a single podium.

Putting him in WRC to score manu points spells disaster both to Hyundai manu points and Solberg himself.
Sure he could drive 4th WRC car, even for whole season. But does Hyundai have money (and available new car) for that?

Rallyper

1st September 2021, 15:22

mknight

1st September 2021, 15:32

I count it as bad result, which it was. (nowhere in my post does it say anything about "failures").

As his fan you should wish for him to have a best possible chance to develop, that doesn't necessarily equal rushing to WRC and point scoring nomination as fast as possible.
See Hirvonen in 2004 for clearest example.

1st September 2021, 16:24

Oliver is not yet ready at all, but we can not know what Adamo is thinking, so everything is possible.

Without the doubt the best thing for him would be to compete full WRC2 season and get some wins and top three positions. The remaining of the WRC events with the Rally1 car to get more experience on the highest level. At first he should get a couple of top 5 results and in Sweden maybe even podium is possible, but he has to learn to complete events without the mistakes...

seb_sh

1st September 2021, 17:56

Solberg is one thing but more interesting is what he had to say about Breen: ask Malcolm.

mknight

1st September 2021, 19:20

Solberg is one thing but more interesting is what he had to say about Breen: ask Malcolm.

"When asked about Breen's possible move to MSport Adamo said "ask Malcolm" "

Sounds like typical Adamo talk to me. You can read it in any way you want. (Ask Malcolm cause it's done deal or Ask Malcolm if it's possible).

Remember that in Spain 2019 one day before it was made official he was saying that the rumors about Tanak going to Hyundai were just something the journalists made up. So don't trust him anything...

Sulland

1st September 2021, 21:12

This year became a bit different for Oliver since the Rally2 car became delayed after a trip to Sweden.
When Oliver and Petter started to test the new car it became crystal that development needed to continue.

Then instead of getting the Rally2 for the better part of the season, and have focus on WRC2, they had to continue with the outdated R5 and Adamo also wanted to check the youngsters speed in a WRCar as well. Huge success on snow, and an off.

Is it too early to push him up to Rally1, or give him one more year in the Rally2?
Hard to say really. 2022 is the first year with a new cartype for all involved, so maybe it could be smart to give him a Katsuta season to learn, and get results in 2023. He need to learn all rallies, and much more of the rallytrade before he will get the confidence to deliver. Oliver need to get orders to play libero in 2022, to finish rallies and pick up points if the topdogs fail to finish, or cars break down. And both things will happen.

If not, give him a full season in WRC2 to learn the rallies, and continue to develop the car. A new split season will in my opinion not do Oliver good.

denkimi

2nd September 2021, 04:00

Perhaps we should wait till solberg shows he could be good enough to be in the wrc, like everybody else, instead of just relying on the name.

So far he hasn't proven anything, without his father he would have never even been considered for a wrc drive.

AnttiL

2nd September 2021, 06:26

"When asked about Breen's possible move to MSport Adamo said "ask Malcolm" "

Sounds like typical Adamo talk to me. You can read it in any way you want. (Ask Malcolm cause it's done deal or Ask Malcolm if it's possible).

Remember that in Spain 2019 one day before it was made official he was saying that the rumors about Tanak going to Hyundai were just something the journalists made up. So don't trust him anything...

No one will ever tell you anything before contracts are published. Adamo could have as well said

"I cannot comment on that subject"
"I haven't heard anything about that"
"Craig is still contracted to Hyundai this year"
etc.

AnttiL

2nd September 2021, 06:31

I agree that Solberg is not ready for collecting manufacturer points yet. You can compare to the likes of Rovanperä at the end of 2019 or Lappi at the end of 2016, both were WRC2(Pro) champions and had won multiple events. Even Suninen seemed more "ready" at the end of 2017 after good WRC2 results and two good WRC starts, and we can see how he wasn't on that level yet in 2018.

mknight

16th September 2021, 08:53

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-could-complete-2022-line-up-after-finland-adamo/
Adamo

“I think that after Finland we [will] decide what to do [with the other car] because also in this I have many thoughts and many doubts.”

Quizzed if Hyundai would retain its policy of sharing driving duties of the third car or handing the seat to a driver on a full-time basis, Adamo said the “complicated” nature of the hybrid Rally1 car might sway the team towards the latter.

“I’m not sure [of] the real move to do because from what I understood, it’s why I’m taking a bit more time, next year’s car will be a different beast from the current ones honestly,” he explained.

“And I have to say, quite more complicated to use with strategies with the way to manage the hybrid and so and so, so I don’t know if sometimes the [lower] road position in the first leg will be an advantage so big in respect to the knowledge of the car.

I like speculation so this is fun.

- Is Breen really out since Adamo opens for maybe full time 3rd driver and wants to decide after Finland? (maybe Breen has an MSport offer but didn't sign yet). I don't see any other clear candidate for full time 3rd seat (based on results on different rallies Mikkelsen would be, but that's not going to happen if Adamo stays (Adamo doesn't "trust" him))

- Again since it's "after Finland" maybe it's also a question of picking "fast rally driver" to complement Sordo between Solberg and Suninen, or even Østberg (prbly long shot) or Huttunen (but he is consistently ignored by Adamo).

er88

16th September 2021, 09:01

Ofcourse everything Adamo says in the media needs to be taken with a huge pinch of salt, but that's the 2nd or 3rd time now he has suggested he is leaning towards a permanent 3rd driver.

Would he really take such a huge gamble on Solberg ?!?! Clearly Breen is the best option for a full season, but I think he has already agreed with Msport. Sordo wont do/get a full season, Mikkelsen has already been released by Adamo...

Not many options. I have a feeling he's going to chuck Solberg into the deep end, but a full season would be one of the biggest gambles a team boss has taken I can remember. At least half a season shared with Sordo would make a bit more sense while still being a gamble.

mknight

16th September 2021, 10:06

If he is even thinking about full season for Solberg in 3rd point scoring car he is downright insane.

Surely he has seen how Toyota lost 2020 manu due to Rovanpera not being able to reliably perform (hard to expect more in first full season). At that point Rovanpera had tons more experience and results (some 2 years more).

Thing is he is often so vocal about his "principles" then does completely opposite on next opportunity. As long as it brings results (2019) I can see Hyundai leadership accepting this, but this year it totally doesn't.

AnttiL

16th September 2021, 10:43

Suninen tells about the Hyundai drive in Catalunya:

"It was a bit of a surprise for me as well. Last week I wouldn't have believed it. Hyundai contacted us and we soon realized it's a chance that we should grab. The Catalunya entries closed soon after the contact so we had to make a quick decision"
"They have the WRC team in the background and now there's a path to walk on and move towards target, which is the return to WRC car"
"So far we have only this one rally agreed. Of course we negotiate on the future. Of course if there's good results, my own future can be quite different. It's great that Hyundai contacted us"

When asked about whether Suninen had to pay money to Hyundai, Suninen replies "they are business things, no more to say about them"

https://www.rallit.fi/teemu-suninen-yrittaa-tuoreen-hyundai-pestin-myota-takaisin-wrc-autoon-nyt-on-joku-reitti-mita-pitkin-kulkea/

mknight

16th September 2021, 14:01

IMO that means they first decided to move Solberg to WRC car and then started looking for people to drive Rally2.

Sulland

16th September 2021, 17:27

Imo the most important thing for Oliver next year is stability and predictability on class in 2022.

Either Rally1 or rally2, but not swapping, and not learn any car well enough.

er88

16th September 2021, 17:29

IMO that means they first decided to move Solberg to WRC car and then started looking for people to drive Rally2.Looking for people who could pay a little too!

Will keep Redgray ticking over......

mknight

16th September 2021, 17:55

Imo the most important thing for Oliver next year is stability and predictability on class in 2022.

Either Rally1 or rally2, but not swapping, and not learn any car well enough.

I wrote exactly this in January...
Stability so that he can focus on driving (stability) development.

Fast Eddie WRC

17th September 2021, 14:15

Solberg testing the 2022 Rally1 Hyundai today suggests he will be in the car next year and maybe full time (Sordo is in Azores Rally at the same time).

er88

17th September 2021, 14:20

Think Solberg is getting this drive fulltime....

EstWRC

17th September 2021, 16:48

Wuorela has some great rumors about Tänak https://twitter.com/miikawuorela/status/1438902614389923840?s=21

mknight

17th September 2021, 16:57

Well that would definitely be a bomb...

But Jarveoja was just interview on Dirtfish about how it is to sit in the new car.

steve.mandzij

17th September 2021, 16:59

Think Solberg is getting this drive fulltime....frankly terrible news... at the very least it's going to be a very tough debut season

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

EstWRC

17th September 2021, 16:59

I like how he says he already predicted it two years ago. Lol

I want some of that stuff he is smoking lately

TypeR

17th September 2021, 17:28

Breen and Tänak in Ford then.. right :D

I believe he will test tomorrow..
Tänak was in Estonia, doing some promo event for Hyundai with new i20N..

cali

17th September 2021, 19:18

I like how he says he already predicted it two years ago. Lol

I want some of that stuff he is smoking latelyHe actually tweeted this 2 years ago. Maybe he defended his prediction tweet or smth but recent times Wuorela hasn't been really on his best form

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

denkimi

17th September 2021, 23:09

Think Solberg is getting this drive fulltime....
Let's hope not.

Let's hope they keep the pay/namedrivers to f1, we don't need Schumacher juniors in the wrc.

mknight

18th September 2021, 05:10

Well we just talked about Solberg needing to drive one car to get stable... the current plans:
- test hybrid
- test and drive Rally2 in Finland
- test and drive current WRC in Spain before it's retired one rally later
-?

For sure it can get even more crazy, like sending him to an ERC round with the old R5 on MRFs...just wait.

TypeR

18th September 2021, 05:22

Let's hope not.

Let's hope they keep the pay/namedrivers to f1, we don't need Schumacher juniors in the wrc.

because rallying is free and nobody doesn't have to pay to drive right?

Everybody has paid in some stage of their career to get a seat.

What about Mick Schumacher? He should win in that pos Haas?

Without payimg we wouldn't have:
Greensmith
Fourmaux
Katsuta
Loubet
Solberg
Gryazin
Lappi (this year)
etc

AnttiL

18th September 2021, 06:48

AnttiL

18th September 2021, 07:52

er88

18th September 2021, 08:50

Kristian Sohlberg said something about Solberg's co-driver change in his twitch stream a couple of days ago. Something like "I know more about this switch than there's on social media but I cannot say...let's just say that Aaron has a bright future ahead".Could be an Adamo-led "decision" to strongly advise Solberg to change and go for more experience (especially if Oliver is running in the main team next year).

Danny0405

18th September 2021, 11:10

Adamo’s quote is quite strange because in Finland, neither Sordo nor Solberg will drive in RC1. So except if Breen is still in the mix, I don’t see what new element from now he would have with Finland...

Catalunya would sound more logical as both Sordo and Solberg will be there in RC1 (Monza is too late, we have seen on the last 5 years that you cannot save/obtain generally a seat for next year with a good performance in the last Rallye mid-november such as Mikkelsen in 2016 / Ostberg and Paddon in 2018)

Personnally, even if I think it is a bad idea (especially because comparing him with Rovanpera is quite wrong if we look at their respective RC2 results), the fact that Solberg has tested the hybrid car (+ makes a WRC drive in a tarmac rally) lets me think it is yet decided with a full-time drive for Solberg. But at least, for the first time, we could recognize that Hyundai take a real risk on a young driver (even if I’m worried it is more on his name than on his level).

meh

18th September 2021, 15:26

I just leave it here, seems correct thread:
https://twitter.com/HartusvuoriWRC/status/1438880735125979140

(sorry, duplicate)

bandit12

18th September 2021, 15:39

Doctor, you have been here allready.

Fast Eddie WRC

18th September 2021, 17:34

Maybe it's not so crazy Solberg testing the Hyundai i20 hybrid as he has experience of 500+ bhp (in RX cars, also without the current WRC car downforce).

The current top WRC drivers may find it harder to adapt after 5 years than he does.

AnttiL

19th September 2021, 19:00

Kristian Sohlberg also said in his twitch stream that Renaud Jamoul made the call to quit co-driving for Fourmaux. Sohlberg thinks Lappi won't have the latest spec Yaris in Rally Finland. He also believes Suninen will do also Monza in a Hyundai Rally2 and continue there next year, and eventually start an event in their Rally1 car. He said Suninen was treated horribly at M-Sport, and the car was by no means competitive.

mknight

20th September 2021, 06:56

Lappi didn't have this years front aero (with different front fienders) on the test, how much difference there is underneath I don't know.

Well Gryazins pace in Rally2 Fiesta was quite some shock considering Suninen was level with Lappi for 1/3 of Portugal in similar conditions.

Which again makes one wonder why Breen (or anyone else who has a choice) should be very keen to go to MSport next year and automatically assume the car will be competetive.

Lappi in similar situation clearly seems to prefer part time at Toyota over trying full time at MSport.

EstWRC

20th September 2021, 07:11

Because Lappi would have to pay in m-sport, thats the reason he doesnt want to go there....he said this last year or beginning of this year in one interview

For me its clear what Sordo says in that interview, part time in Hyundai again and i guess sharing the car with Oliver then and maybe also with Suninen.

AnttiL

20th September 2021, 07:17

Well Gryazins pace in Rally2 Fiesta was quite some shock considering Suninen was level with Lappi for 1/3 of Portugal in similar conditions..

Sohlberg also mentioned this in the stream, as a defense to Suninen. He also described the Fiesta Rally2 to have been incomplete when it was homologated, and not much development have been done.

mknight

20th September 2021, 07:32

Because Lappi would have to pay in m-sport, thats the reason he doesnt want to go there....he said this last year or beginning of this year in one interview

This year yes.
2022 I doubt MSport can/will have only paydrivers, for example Breen seemingly has no money.

AnttiL

20th September 2021, 07:33

This year yes.
2022 I doubt MSport can/will have only paydrivers, for example Breen seemingly has no money.

Yes, it's assumed that M-Sport is looking for a driver capable of winning rallies and the team would be paying salary for that. But many things hint that Breen has a done deal, for example latest episode of Absolute Rally.

However, I can only assume Lappi has negotiated with M-Sport and Breen with Toyota as well. I would imagine Breen wants full season at all costs, while Lappi could be satisfied with a partial season at Toyota (for getting to spend more time with the family, also through doing test work in Finland)

Fast Eddie WRC

20th September 2021, 14:51

Breen wants & needs a full season for his high ambitions to get to the top. And M-Sport will only pay for a driver with a good recent WRC record and a serious aim to win rallies. They are therefore an ideal match.

Suninen has had his chances to impress and clearly hasnt for too long. If he gets a any kind of paid 2022 Rally1 drives with Hyundai he'll be very lucky.

mknight

20th September 2021, 15:07

Breen wants & needs a full season for his high ambitions to get to the top. And M-Sport will only pay for a driver with a good recent WRC record and a serious aim to win rallies. They are therefore an ideal match.

Last year Lappi was in pretty much exactly same situation (except MSport didn't pay cause he still had salary from Citroen).

That "ideal match" didn't end well for either side.

Fast Eddie WRC

20th September 2021, 17:18

Last year Lappi was in pretty much exactly same situation (except MSport didn't pay cause he still had salary from Citroen).

That "ideal match" didn't end well for either side.

Like Breen, Lappi had no other choice if he wanted a (full-time) drive.

And like Lappi Breen will be getting paid, so wont be losing anything.

Actually the nearest comparison is when Ogier joined M-Sport with a new generation car in '17 .... and that did work out rather well.

mknight

20th September 2021, 19:32

Actually the nearest comparison is when Ogier joined M-Sport with a new generation car in '17 .... and that did work out rather well.

Ogier in 2016 - 4 times world champion with 38 rally wins that said no to (allegedly) 10 mil euro offer from Toyota cause he didn't like the car on test and just tested the Fiesta and found it decent compared with the 2017 Polo that he spend 6+months testing.

Breen in 2021 - 5 times podium finisher (in 5 years) that does 4 WRC rallies a year and hasn't driven a single 2022 car and (likely) signed without ever testing the car.

Really close comparison that ;)

AnttiL

20th September 2021, 20:38

Last year Lappi was in pretty much exactly same situation (except MSport didn't pay cause he still had salary from Citroen).

That "ideal match" didn't end well for either side.

2020 and 2022 are completely different situations for M-Sport.

Basically Lappi was a pay driver in 2020, bringing his Citroen money. And when that money ran out, he couldn't continue for 2021. In 2020 Fiesta was lacking behind in development and M-Sport was likely just waiting for the new era to begin.

But in 2022, they want to be back at winning rallies, if not titles, and they are ready to put money in a driver who can deliver.

mknight

21st September 2021, 06:32

But in 2022, they want to be back at winning rallies, if not titles, and they are ready to put money in a driver who can deliver.

I am sure you are also seeing the very mixed communication from them.

On one hand we get what you described saying they want a top driver and 3 cars to be able to fight in manu champs.

Then they fail to hire any of last years rally winners (did they even try or was that just PR talk?). And lately we get extensive interviews on how Greensmith has shown he is on "WRC level" and last days a story on how Fourmaux and Greensmith are on same level.

So PR talk for sponsors is one thing, real actions are something else. Worst case they enter next season with Breen, Fourmaux and Greensmith and a meh car that maybe manages 2-3 podiums. (basically 2019 style).

Neither Greensmith nor Fourmaux can be expected to beat any of Rovanpera/Evans/Ogier/Lappi/Neuville/Tanak/Sordo on speed in 2022. How many rallies can Breen be expected to beat (almost) all of them? 3 maybe? (SWE, FIN, EST, no Ypres next year), maybe fewer without road position advantage. That's in my eyes a long way from the announced ambition levels.

jonkka

21st September 2021, 06:45

But in 2022, they want to be back at winning rallies, if not titles, and they are ready to put money in a driver who can deliver.

Emphasis added. Wanting is easy but it gets you only so far. Does M-Sport have resources to be competitive in 2022 and fulfil those wants? I fear not. If Breen goes with them for full-time drive, he is either blinded by his own ambition or knows something we do not know.

AnttiL

21st September 2021, 06:47

I am sure you are also seeing the very mixed communication from them.

On one hand we get what you described saying they want a top driver and 3 cars to be able to fight in manu champs.

Then they fail to hire any of last years rally winners (did they even try or was that just PR talk?). And lately we get extensive interviews on how Greensmith has shown he is on "WRC level" and last days a story on how Fourmaux and Greensmith are on same level.

To me it seems the communication changed after Tänak and Neuville signed their contracts. After that they ditched talks of titles and instead started talking positive about Fourmaux and Greensmith, because it was their reality.

So PR talk for sponsors is one thing, real actions are something else. Worst case they enter next season with Breen, Fourmaux and Greensmith and a meh car that maybe manages 2-3 podiums. (basically 2019 style).

Neither Greensmith nor Fourmaux can be expected to beat any of Rovanpera/Evans/Ogier/Lappi/Neuville/Tanak/Sordo on speed in 2022. How many rallies can Breen be expected to beat (almost) all of them? 3 maybe? (SWE, FIN, EST, no Ypres next year), maybe fewer without road position advantage. That's in my eyes a long way from the announced ambition levels.

It's good to remember all three teams will have completely new cars. The balance between them could be anything. We cannot assume Toyota is as dominant as it is now, we cannot assume Hyundai being as good as it was in early 2017, we cannot assume M-Sport being as bad as they are now. It will all be a surprise.

And another thing to mix in is how the drivers will adapt to the new driving style of the new cars, which will be different to the WRC cars and different to R5's. And things like Hyundai on tarmac on other drivers than Neuville...likely that will all change.

mknight

21st September 2021, 07:15

To me it seems the communication changed after Tänak and Neuville signed their contracts. After that they ditched talks of titles and instead started talking positive about Fourmaux and Greensmith, because it was their reality.

It's good to remember all three teams will have completely new cars. The balance between them could be anything. We cannot assume Toyota is as dominant as it is now, we cannot assume Hyundai being as good as it was in early 2017, we cannot assume M-Sport being as bad as they are now. It will all be a surprise.

There is a huge gap from say Evans, Breen and Forumaux team to Breen, Fourmaux, Greensmith.
If they really had the money (and not just PR talk) there are at least 5 available drivers better than Greensmith.

Yes the balance between teams can change, but in MSports case to suceed both the car and 2/3 drivers have to massively improve to even be competetive.

AnttiL

21st September 2021, 08:02

There is a huge gap from say Evans, Breen and Forumaux team to Breen, Fourmaux, Greensmith.

But would that win against Neuville-Tänak or Ogier/Lappi-Rovanperä? (assuming cars are equal)

er88

21st September 2021, 08:39

Emphasis added. Wanting is easy but it gets you only so far. Does M-Sport have resources to be competitive in 2022 and fulfil those wants? I fear not. If Breen goes with them for full-time drive, he is either blinded by his own ambition or knows something we do not know.

They've effectively spent the best part of 2years off in the WRC. Treading water with little to no development and a lack of testing, while taking money off pay drivers like Greensmith or drivers with sponsorship like Fourmaux. They started work on the Puma early in lockdown, and have had the car running early and testing a lot (and it does pass the eye test - I know, not always accurate). I'd be surprised if Msport DON'T have a car capable of challenging the Yaris or I20, it can't be worse than the current Fiesta which has fallen so far behind on development.

I don't agree with some that somehow Msport will build a better car than Toyota or Hyundai, but that's different from being competitive. Why on earth wouldn't Breen jump at the chance of a full season with them? Hyundai can't/ won't offer him a full season so it's a no brainer. Especially if it's a two year deal and he is being paid. He needs full seasons now and deserves the chance other drivers have had.

AnttiL

21st September 2021, 09:35

I believe M-Sport is able to make a winning car, as they've managed earlier with new regulations. Just because they've lagged behind 2-3 years doesn't mean they don't put in proper effort for the new car. And like I said earlier, the tables turn here, everyone gets a new car so it's an equal starting point.

mknight

21st September 2021, 10:22

But would that win against Neuville-Tänak or Ogier/Lappi-Rovanperä? (assuming cars are equal)

If MSport had 2-3 competetive drives they have 2-3 times bigger chance than if they only have Breen.
If they are/were serious and not just PR talk that is.

---

Similarly for Breen it's a big risk to go to MSport (and even more so if he is the only competetive driver).
Just look at Tanak, going to manu champ winners as the fastest driver and world champion. Now he is the last full time manu driver! MSport is now a semi-manu underfunded team with terrible recent results even with decent drivers (Suninen Lappi).

We dunno what is/was possible at Hyundai. Especially if Adamo leaves...
but at Toyota Latvala now says Ogier will do 4 rounds. 7? rounds sound much better that full season at MSport to me. If say Breen beat Lappi in Finland.

Andre Oliveira

21st September 2021, 10:25

Breen is not a rally winner.

I would prefer Lappi, Mikkelsen, Sordo, Meeke,… and then Breen.

macebig

21st September 2021, 11:01

er88

21st September 2021, 11:08

My (potential) problem with Msport is there's middle ground between signing one of the big 4 drivers, plus Breen & having Fourmaux as 3rd driver, to having a lineup like Breen/ Fourmaux/Greensmith (which is probably what it's going to be).

Fourmaux should be the 3rd driver, have Breen as your main man and try to help him fulfill his potential, but any other driver than Greensmith is better. Mikkelsen could get a full season, they could've signed up Lappi or Andreas early this year and let them share the testing load with Fourmaux (rather than having Matt Wilson do it). If not Mikkelsen or Lappi, they could've fully trusted Suninen, or they could even go down the PR route of bringing oldies like Loeb/ Meeke etc back to do a few events each for extra publicity and some good stages times/results. Even someone like Paddon has been completely forgotten about (although that's understandable when he's the other side of the world).

Would be very underwhelming if Greensmith is in the main team for the full season. He will pay for a car anyway, just give him a 4th one. Mikkelsen would drive for free more or less at this rate (although even he has mentioned in the past he has some budget to help if needed). There are drivers around that can still make up a nice/ interesting team at Msport next year.

EstWRC

21st September 2021, 11:43

i really wonder why some of you arent working in the series as team bosses or smth like that

especially mknight, he has all the answers all the time

mknight

21st September 2021, 12:45

The hater boner towards Ford and M Sport is off the charts... WRC as we know it will be dead in 2 years if they quit... Albeit, a R5 based, European centered WRC ala WTCR won't be worse than the current situation.

You totally misunderstand this.

I want MSport to be competetive, but right now they are just not present in the championship.

Sure technically they drive the rallies, but that's it. 0 podiums. Zero times any of their drivers had speed to beat any of the 6 other manu drivers. Lately they usually don't even beat Katsuta, so they "fight" with Loubet for 8-9th and move up with retirements.

Yes COVID hurt them a lot and it wasn't their fault.

So we get great announcements with Ford leadership present on how they are going to aim for top results in 2022....

and then their lineup starts shaping up as Breen, Fourmaux, Greensmith :(

macebig

21st September 2021, 13:14

And? They don't have a God given right to sign Tanak or Neuville. Those 2 were the only available top level drivers. Breen,Fourmaux and Greensmith are a fine enough combination for RMC. During the year, they may add another driver if it makes sense.

mknight

21st September 2021, 15:02

There are/were multiple other top rally drivers available, lots of them likely for free/low wage.
(Top driver in the sense of previous winner (Lappi, Mikkelsen, Sordo, Paddon, Meeke, Loeb) or at least a podium finisher (Suninen)).
Every single one of these is better than Greensmith for any rally and most are better than Fourmaux even for Monte. If you go for lineup like that in Monte you already gave up manu title.

Which brings out the suspicion that the talk about aiming for top drivers and results in 2022 was just PR BS. Don't see why any fan should applaud to being fed PR BS.

macebig

21st September 2021, 15:17

er88

21st September 2021, 15:52

Meeke, Sordo have zero upside. Loeb isn't available for RMC. Lappi was only looking for a Toyota return.Paddon has to move out of NZ to get any chance of a regular program (and he is working with local Hyundai anyway...) And Suninen decided to shoot himself on the foot, when he had clear orders to bring the cars home and wrecked them.Loeb, Meeke and Sordo would do a much better job than Greensmith, that's the point. All three bring a lot of interest and publicity too, and on specific rallies could still challenge for some podiums and win stages to show the pace of the car. That's despite the fact they are all over the hill and past their best. If Solberg gets a full seat at Hyundai, Msport (if they didn't want to rinse money out of Greensmith) could just rotate all 3 of those drivers in a car for a season, alongside Breen and Fourmaux with full seasons.
Suninen shot himself in the foot with crashes yes, but clearly he felt no backing or confidence from the team, had little testing, and was driving under huge pressure and yet still I remember that 1st Monte stage more than anything Greensmith has done this year. He crashed, but he was equally criticised when off the pace too.
Then you have Mikkelsen, clearly available, would drive for barely anything to get back into a Rally1 car, and is such a better option for decent results/pace than anything Greensmith has ever shown. Paddon seems to be a what might have been unfortunately....

denkimi

21st September 2021, 16:22

Any top driver would do better than greensmith. He just doesn't have it. I saw him lift in ypres in a place where no good driver ever lifts, not even the jwrc drivers.

Good for him that he brings a lot of money to keep msport running, but he is never going to be anything but a paydriver.

macebig

21st September 2021, 17:56

Mikkelsen is regularly testing a Fiesta and is now using an M Sport contracted co driver. A deal may happen.

AnttiL

22nd September 2021, 05:58

Loeb, Meeke and Sordo would do a much better job than Greensmith, that's the point.

Maybe Greensmith does the best job by keeping M-Sport in the WRC through bringing in the much needed funding? Anyway I hope they can afford to pay a top driver next year.

As for Loeb, Meeke and Sordo, remember that they are old drivers. Loeb has retired twice, Meeke has been out for two seasons. Sordo and Loeb will not do the fast rallies anymore. Breen, Mikkelsen and Lappi are drivers at the best possible age and will still have lots of years ahead of them.

navi

22nd September 2021, 10:39

Mikkelsen is regularly testing a Fiesta and is now using an M Sport contracted co driver. A deal may happen.

But strange choice. GB has a great pool of codriver talent at the moment.

TypeR

22nd September 2021, 10:49

But strange choice. GB has a great pool of codriver talent at the moment.
without WRC experience..

Got Mail

22nd September 2021, 12:27

But strange choice. GB has a great pool of codriver talent at the moment.

Why a strange choice?

seb_sh

22nd September 2021, 20:51

So at MSport it can be anything between just Fourmaux/Greensmith or Mikkelsen/Breen/Fourmaux plus Greensmith and a few rallies for Loeb (who could also mentor Fourmaux). That's quite a big range. Seems Breen is in but in my opinion if they want to be serious they need Mikkelsen as well, Mikkelsen/Breen/Fourmaux looks like a team that can fight with Tanak/Neuville/Sordo-Solberg and Evans/Rovanpera/Ogier-Lappi. They won't be favourites but if the car is good they would be a proper team and not like the past two years. I hope they can find the budget for that and that the car is good.

denkimi

22nd September 2021, 21:21

djip

22nd September 2021, 21:36

[QUOTE=denkimi;1283485]i wouldn't expect to much. unless ford suddenly decides to improve their funding massively, it will be fourmaux, greensmith and some better 3th driver, probably breen.[/QUOTE

Fourmeaux, Breen and a paying third driver which can be anybody from Greensmith to Mikkelsen to Gryazin. Even Loeb would attract soem sponsorship money I guess ... The last 3 could run only partial programs.

Anybody mentioning seriously Mikkelsen back at Hyunday as 3rd driver ? Sordo seems to have lost his mojo somehow and Solberg is definitely not ready. Adamo is no fool, he knows that, so he might as well put him in a 4th car - they have money to do so.

I also wonder why Ostberg is never mentioned. Sure he will never be world champion, but he has shown at least the same pace as Mikkelsen and is very reliable. Just what you like for a 3rd driver, always there in 4-5th place to pick up the points if your 2 lead drivers fail. Definitely not something you would count on from. a young, up-and-coming driver with a lot to prove...

mknight

23rd September 2021, 05:47

Østberg would fit as a driver for fast gravel rallies in combination with Sordo. He was never great on tarmac, even though he seems to have improved in R5 I doubt anyone would put him in WRC on tarmac.

Anyway calling him very reliable is quite a stretch. He is reliable when he doesn't drive at full speed. Else there is an issue every two stages, often self induced. (lately in Greece he broke front suspension cause he jumped too much with RWD, before that in Estonia he first broke suspension on a jump and right after service got puncture cause he mowed down a concrete anti-cut).

AnttiL

23rd September 2021, 06:53

Mikkelsen/Breen/Fourmaux looks like a team that can fight with Tanak/Neuville/Sordo-Solberg and Evans/Rovanpera/Ogier-Lappi.

Only if the car is a lot better than Hyundai and Toyota.

It's also good to remember that Mikkelsen and Breen have done few WRC events during the 2-3 last seasons. There's new events and stages where they lack experience.

Breen has never won a WRC rally, Mikkelsen only in VW years, while Tänak, Neuville and Ogier are regular winners with Evans, Rovanperä and Sordo having won multiple times during the 2017 car era (and Lappi also once)

It would be interesting to see Breen as the "number one" driver, doing his first season without having to slow down for anyone, and getting to do the setups to his liking. However, there will also be some mental load, you need to be strong in all events, not just in the ones picked for you like in Hyundai lately. But I hope all the best for him, hopefully he gets a full season and it works out.

mknight

23rd September 2021, 08:55

Hands up those who thought Evans would be able to fight for driver title at the end of 2019.
I certainly didn't.
Is the Toyota a lot better than Hyundai? Maybe, but definitely not like it was at end of 2018. Then you get Tanaks drop in performance the other way.

Margins seem so small that small differences between cars seem to matter more than small differences between pilots.

For the events, there were almost no new ones the last two years that they didn't do (in WRC or WRC2), and that are going to stay.

Anyway point is that (alphabetically): Breen Fourmaux, Mikkelsen team can have some chance for manus and has two drivers with podium chance on most rallies. Breen, Fourmaux, Greensmith has no chance of manus and one driver with podium chances. That's rather risky if you actually worry about results. (Malcolm might not, Ford might).

Take Citroen at start of 2017 with similar driver lineup. When the one driver runs into issues (for whatever reason) the other "young" drivers aren't there to bring good results. This again increases the pressure on the one driver and so forth...

AnttiL

23rd September 2021, 09:20

During 2019-2021 Breen has skipped new stage material from:
- Monte Carlo (well, it changes every year anyway)
- Chile (if it returns)
- Portugal (whole Arganil area loop has been now driven twice for other drivers, also two other new stages this year)
- Sardinia (new stages every year)
- Safari
- Acropolis
- Catalunya (a handful of new tarmac stages since he did the event in 2018)

And Mikkelsen has skipped Portugal and Safari, and will skip Finland with lots of new stages where likely most will remain for 2022.

But yes, Breen-Fourmaux-Greensmith would be exactly like Citroen in 2017. Meeke was also seen as a title contender thanks to good rallies in 2016, but it never realized, and he was also responsible for messing with the car development. Hopefully Breen doesn't end up the same way.

EstWRC

23rd September 2021, 10:03

what a motivation speech for Evans, Kalle and Lappi https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyota-worried-about-life-with-no-ogier/

seb_sh

23rd September 2021, 10:40

Let's say the cars are about equal with some advantages and disadvantages in certain conditions. Then if you have Breen-Fourmaux-Greensmith it is almost assured last place for the reasons AnttiL and mknight pointed out. If you replace Greensmith with Mikkelsen you have in theory a much stronger team and you can fight, you will still be the underdog team but you have all the chances you can get with what is on the market at the moment.

I don't count Ostberg as he has enough time in top WRC to show what he can, he's bad on tarmac and when he tries to drive fast issues "appear" way too often to be just bad luck so I think we have a good indication of his level. MSport doesn't need that, they need an Ogier/Tanak/Evans/Neuville (ironically all have gone through MSport), and they couldn't get any of them so for me the next best thing is Mikkelsen because my feeling is he MAY be able to make the step to that level. I think Mikkelsen was growing well at VW and was unlucky when they pulled out and didn't get a team, it was probably a mistake for Citroen to not hire him then.

denkimi

23rd September 2021, 14:50

There's just no way msport is going to end up before hyundai and toyota in the championship. Just forget about that. They don't have the money and they don't have the drivers.

The best they can hope for is winning a rally.

fiscorpun

23rd September 2021, 15:39

At this point Im just hoping for a RedBull colored Msport with Gryazin, Mikkelsen and Fourmaux (all redbull sponsored already, eh?)

Logan_93

23rd September 2021, 22:44

Maybe Greensmith does the best job by keeping M-Sport in the WRC through bringing in the much needed funding? Anyway I hope they can afford to pay a top driver next year.

Exactly. It’s not necessarily a case of them choosing a paydriver over someone who may potentially have a higher ceiling (like a Mikkelsen) because they think that will get the best results.
It’s a case where if they don’t choose the paydriver, the car won’t be able to run at all.

AnttiL

24th September 2021, 09:20

https://twitter.com/OliverSolberg01/status/1441311448299413505

Oliver Solberg goes to Finland with Craig Drew

AnttiL

27th September 2021, 12:21

https://www.rallit.fi/espanjasta-kantautui-huolestuttavia-uutisia-jari-huttusen-ja-teemu-sunisen-kannalta/

According to Marca magazine, Oliver Solberg is sharing the third Hyundai with Dani Sordo. Pepe Lopez would also join the WRC2 team.

meh

28th September 2021, 11:05

djip

29th September 2021, 06:45

Some cryptic message from Paddon?

https://twitter.com/HaydenPaddon/status/1442803359778426881

"While not there, looking forward to following Rally Finland this week! Always one of my favourite events and famous for the big jumps. Hopefully we will be back there next year Winking face #paddonspack"

A Paddon/Sordo 3rd car sharing with Solberg in a 4th car would work wonders for Hyundai (and anyway way much better than throwing young Solberg under the bus). They say in french "only fools never change their minds". No harm in admitting that binning Paddon a few years back was a mistake (and it wasn't Adamo's).

AnttiL

29th September 2021, 06:52

My guess would be that Paddon is going for a some sort of private program, possibly in WRC2. Would be risky to put someone in the main team who has been off the championship for three years.

mknight

29th September 2021, 09:18

Hyundai just got a new Rally2 car.

No harm in admitting that binning Paddon a few years back was a mistake (and it wasn't Adamo's).

Adamo (with Penasse) picked Breen over Paddon for 2019 Finland.

Which in a way was even worse than binning him at end of 2018 by hiring Loeb (not 100% sure whether Nandan or Adamo hired Loeb btw.). At end of 2018 Loeb just won a rally while Paddon had a mediocre season.

By the time of Finland Breen had worse WRC results than Paddon, only drove R5 on a few local rallies with decent but not great results and had no knowledge of Hyundai. Paddon had podium from last start with Hyundai just half a year before. But was outside of Europe completely since that time, which likely doomed him.

Breen was seen by "everyone" as a much more risky choice. Hard to say whether it was good also. Breen did some good times in Finland, but in the end his hiring did nothing for Hyundai manu points. Similarly his start in GB did nothing for the team, except repairs. Same with Sweden. First on his 4th rally with the team in Estonia 2020 he actually contributed.

AnttiL

29th September 2021, 09:19

So, next year Hyundai's WRC2 team will include Solberg, Huttunen, Lopez, Veiby, Suninen and Paddon? :D

mknight

29th September 2021, 09:31

So, next year Hyundai's WRC2 team will include Solberg, Huttunen, Lopez, Veiby, Suninen and Paddon? :D

Go big or go home?

Sadly I think if it comes down to money Huttunen might get the short straw.
I'd guess Solberg will start in Rally1 even if he is not scoring.
Dunno what's the attitude with Veiby since he "hurt" the team quite bad by his actions. But maybe money talks.

denkimi

29th September 2021, 14:30

So, next year Hyundai's WRC2 team will include Solberg, Huttunen, Lopez, Veiby, Suninen and Paddon? :D
Why not. It's easier to compare drivers when they're all in the same car. Now we just need mikkelsen, ostberg, gryazin, bulcacia, rossel, kajetanowicz, ingram and lukyanuk in hyundai rc2.

And the best gets ranked gets to be the 3nd Hyundai drivers besides sordo. :p

AnttiL

3rd October 2021, 18:02

https://www.rallit.fi/teemu-suninen-todisti-taitonsa-hyundain-tallipomo-lupaili-lisaa-kisoja-sanoiko-han-niin/

Adamo has promised more drives for Suninen, likely in Monza

Eli

3rd October 2021, 18:09

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/latvala-lappi-has-done-enough-to-deserve-2022-toyota-drive/

So as previously discussed here, a rotation between Lappi & Ogier for 2022, seems to be only a matter of formality now.

er88

3rd October 2021, 18:30

Things shaping up. Lappi in at Toyota and Breen already signed with Msport, which is a 2yr deal I believe.

Question marks over Hyundai's 3rd seat and Msports 3rd seat, alongside Breen and Fourmaux. Gryazin will likely do a few events with the team too, and in the last few months Greensmith has been bigged up by Msport....

skarderud

3rd October 2021, 18:58

And M-sport 4 and 5 seat.

Greensmith and Fourmaux in the payteam, Loeb+Fourmaux, Mikkelsen and Breen in a RedBull ford M-sport team.

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Danny0405

3rd October 2021, 19:25

mknight

3rd October 2021, 19:27

https://www.rallit.fi/teemu-suninen-todisti-taitonsa-hyundain-tallipomo-lupaili-lisaa-kisoja-sanoiko-han-niin/

Adamo has promised more drives for Suninen, likely in Monza

Driver-type wise Suninen would fit to pair up with Sordo.

In a way it would be quite ridiculous if Suninen leaves MSport after being dissatisfied with the car and team effort and takes Breens spot in Hyundai who goes to MSport cause he doesn't get enough chances at Hyundai.

Anyway that's for next year. Short term the question is how satisfied (and fast) Suninen will be with the Hyundai Rally2 car.

mknight

3rd October 2021, 19:31

One thing is not really clear for me about Gryazin: he was supposed to switch to Ford Rally2 and explicitly told that he would use a VW in Finland only as it was part of a already signed agreement (which I can understand).
But he will do Spain with VW according to the entry list. So not really sure of how much he is committed with M-Sport (or perhaps he was afraid by the level of the car in Greece)

In Greece he was laughing how bad the car is with his codriver after most stages.
So I only see him being interested in Rally1 drives.

Since Portugal (in WRC) and Liepaja (ERC) he has also been a bit off the pace in Polo as well.

Danny0405

3rd October 2021, 19:52

Driver-type wise Suninen would fit to pair up with Sordo.

In a way it would be quite ridiculous if Suninen leaves MSport after being dissatisfied with the car and team effort and takes Breens spot in Hyundai who goes to MSport cause he doesn't get enough chances at Hyundai.

Anyway that's for next year. Short term the question is how satisfied (and fast) Suninen will be with the Hyundai Rally2 car.

Yep... a Sordo-Suninen duo is interesting in terms of profile but the issue is that, even without talking about Solberg, other available drivers have the profile to share a car with Sordo, especially Mikkelsen.
And Suninen has never proven to be consistent in a WRC car (except maybe end-2020) and the adaptation to the Hyundai car seems not that simple so it’s a bet for both side.

But clearly a good drive in Spain would be a good thing for him if Hyundai’s bosses are not totally blind about Solberg.

mknight

3rd October 2021, 20:15

Mikkelsen won't go to Hyundai as long as Adamo is there, cause Adamo doesn't trust him. (his own words after Mikkelsen was fastest Hyundai and got 3rd place in Turkey 2019).

Danny0405

3rd October 2021, 21:45

Mikkelsen won't go to Hyundai as long as Adamo is there, cause Adamo doesn't trust him. (his own words after Mikkelsen was fastest Hyundai and got 3rd place in Turkey 2019).

I’m not sure Adamo still has the momentum with Hyundai HQ with such an awful season after a 2020 season which was already not good enough (when you hire the incumbent world driver champion, it is not to clinch a miraculous manufacturer title). Being out, even from a strictly mathematical point of view, of the WDC 2 events before the end of the season and being out of the manufacturer title one round before the end (we can assume Toyota will clinch it in Spain) is clearly a massive humiliation for Hyundai with a Neuville-Tanak duo + the shared third car strategy.
All the more than the Hyundai drivers were not that bad this season.

I would be at least surprised he is still the only decider for the main decisions (not to say he might be fired by the end of the year) and, if he is still here, I think he will have a lot of pressure for 2022 so he might have to choose the best driver available and not the driver he wants.

Andre Oliveira

4th October 2021, 08:51

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FA17X9kWEAAd9jQ?format=jpg&name=medium

mknight

4th October 2021, 09:35

Danny0405

4th October 2021, 09:42

Unless it's some confusion then the real news is the last sentence.
But I am not quite sure tbh, cause it would be quite weird to sign anyone bar Breen (and hypothetical Evans or Rovanpera) for two year deal.

I would think the sentence is not well written («*he will be hired as 1 of the 3 drivers and his contract is for 2 seasons*») more than saying «*3 drivers will be hired for the next 2 seasons*»
Yes, the market is not really open with Tanak and Neuville with Multi-year contract and probably the same for Evans and Rovanpera in Toyota but, as you say, no real interest in signing all drivers in multi-year deals (maybe Fourmaux if they really believe in his potential but it is not that simple if he partially pays to drive)

Fast Eddie WRC

4th October 2021, 11:49

With all the changes in the 2022 hybrid cars it may be seen that it will be too difficult to get good results with just part-time drives.

Most people accept Fourmaux will be full-time due to his Red Bull and FFSA support, so now it depends if Greensmith has the money to go again.

skarderud

4th October 2021, 11:53

M-sport said that they run 4-5 cars next year, i assume Greensmith is in the 4th car.

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seb_sh

4th October 2021, 12:17

M-sport said that they run 4-5 cars next year, i assume Greensmith is in the 4th car.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

Where have they said that? I only saw they hope to have 3 works cars and that there is customer interest but nothing concrete.

macebig

4th October 2021, 12:50

Fourmaux and Breen are pretty much confirmed as 2 full season drivers. Greensmith will be there (still tba if he is full season or not). But, anyway, that is the trio for RMC. If a 4th Puma can be added, remains to be seen.

skarderud

4th October 2021, 13:07

Where have they said that? I only saw they hope to have 3 works cars and that there is customer interest but nothing concrete.Some intervju with dirthfish.
3 Main cars, 1-2 cars for paydrivers. Greensmith has to be in the paydriver team.

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AnttiL

4th October 2021, 13:14

Some intervju with dirthfish.
3 Main cars, 1-2 cars for paydrivers. Greensmith has to be in the paydriver team.

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I would say that’s just heavy interpretation of the interview

Portimao

4th October 2021, 14:25

BTW I don't think Adamo is that crazy to give Solberg a seat

https://i.ibb.co/18sYxqD/Zrzut-ekranu-2021-10-04-162115.jpg (https://ibb.co/SRQDpnh)

er88

4th October 2021, 14:54

Most people accept Fourmaux will be full-time due to his Red Bull and FFSA support, so now it depends if Greensmith has the money to go again.

Msport are a joke if/ when they confirm Greensmith in the 3rd car.

Sulland

4th October 2021, 16:09

Oliver need same order from team boss as Petter got: Get to the finish line on every rally. You can win them later, now it is all about getting experience.
Malcolm was pretty clear, and that went well for Petter.

BTW I don't think Adamo is that crazy to give Solberg a seat

https://i.ibb.co/18sYxqD/Zrzut-ekranu-2021-10-04-162115.jpg (https://ibb.co/SRQDpnh)

macebig

4th October 2021, 16:39

Phil Mills had a sit-down segment with Howard Davies (ex Gwyndaf Evans co driver) and said he and Peter will be the gravel crew for Oliver pandemic allowing. So, he will get some help.

Rallyper

4th October 2021, 17:39

BTW I don't think Adamo is that crazy to give Solberg a seat

https://i.ibb.co/18sYxqD/Zrzut-ekranu-2021-10-04-162115.jpg (https://ibb.co/SRQDpnh)

So it seems, but taking a second look, there are many ways of polishing the juwel of Norweigan driver. He has some areas to improve. One is maybe making more exact pace notes.

He will for sure be a winner. Every driver needs to crash out to learn.

mknight

4th October 2021, 17:50

Oliver need same order from team boss as Petter got: Get to the finish line on every rally. You can win them later, now it is all about getting experience.
Malcolm was pretty clear, and that went well for Petter.

This is actually really interesting comparison.

Petter started under Malcolm which was like this. Then after 1 year he unexpectedly left to Subaru, seemingly to charge for results as soon as possible. What followed were almost 2 years with lots of crashes before he got somewhat stable, but he never got really stable (which cost him 2004 title and almost 2003 one (Corsica)).

Oliver could continue with Skoda in 2021 and go for WRC2 title like Kalle did + for example ERC. Instead he went immediatelly to Hyundai with a WRC starts promise and what follows is a string of crashes.

There are two real dangers in short term:
- stopped driver development
- his near future is completely based on Adamo being his fan. If Adamo gets kicked he might find it hard to get a decent drive for a while.

rallyfiend

4th October 2021, 17:56

Oliver's father will be the end of his career if he continues to involve himself as deeply as he does now.

He needs to let Oliver develop a bit himself.

Personally, technically and mentally

SubaruNorway

4th October 2021, 18:26

And every driver needs a good car and a team that listens to what the driver needs, there's no coincidence there was two wrecked i20's last week i think...

dimviii

4th October 2021, 18:40

Oliver's father will be the end of his career if he continues to involve himself as deeply as he does now.

He needs to let Oliver develop a bit himself.

Personally, technically and mentally

agree 100%
that is my impression too, i have also wrote via pm with some members here,after i was for half a day at his Acropolis pre test.

denkimi

5th October 2021, 11:18

So it seems, but taking a second look, there are many ways of polishing the juwel of Norweigan driver. He has some areas to improve. One is maybe making more exact pace notes.

He will for sure be a winner. Every driver needs to crash out to learn.
I wonder what makes anyone think he's a juwel or even a potential winner, except his last name.

So far he has shown neither the speed nor the reliability.

Fast Eddie WRC

5th October 2021, 11:24

M-sport said that they run 4-5 cars next year, i assume Greensmith is in the 4th car.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

Extra cars later in the year maybe (if the Puma proves to be good) but I dont see anyone other than Greensmith paying for one from the start of 2022.

And if M-Sport pay a contract for Breen then I dont see them being able to afford to pay for another driver too.

er88

5th October 2021, 11:40

And if M-Sport pay a contract for Breen then I dont see them being able to afford to pay for another driver too.

Breen won't be on that high a salary and Malcolm was very keen to tell us he wanted a top 4 driver, which would've cost millions...

Msport could run Breen, Mikkelsen and Fourmaux for less than it would've cost to sign one of Tanak, Evans or Neuville etc. At this rate Mikkelsen or another decent driver would drive for pennies to get another crack at a full wrc season, but if Malcolm doesn't believe in Andreas (which seems the case), I guess he will just take the money instead from a vastly inferior Greensmith. Even Mikkelsen has mentioned he has a little bit of money, if needed to help save his wrc career....

ouvreur

5th October 2021, 12:19

Gus retaining a seat in any sort of works Fiesta isn't 'instead' of anyone else. Two other seats exist BECAUSE of him, not in spite of him.

SubaruNorway

5th October 2021, 13:37

I wonder what makes anyone think he's a juwel or even a potential winner, except his last name.

So far he has shown neither the speed nor the reliability.

The stats before Hyundai maybe?
Always had a bad feeling about this team from things i've heard from many now, some things that would shock you...
https://www.ewrc-results.com/profile/142084-oliver-solberg/

mknight

5th October 2021, 13:45

Gus retaining a seat in any sort of works Fiesta isn't 'instead' of anyone else. Two other seats exist BECAUSE of him, not in spite of him.

As er88 says unless Malcolm Wilson lied about having money for paying top driver (5-8 mil EURO), he could afford all 3 of Breen, Lappi and Mikkelsen for that (next best available drivers).

Sure he might not want to use the money on other drivers. Which then brings us back to the point of MSport being a profit-making business and not a team doing everything for win. Exactly like Suninen just said. That by itself is fine, what is then not fine is the press-releases "pretending" they are doing everything to win. (Recall the recent pre-Greece news saying how Greensmith has shown he "deserves" WRC seat and is aiming to win a stage in Greece.)

What boggles me a bit is Ford position in this. By MSports words Ford is now using lot of money for developing the Puma and then they should be happy with 3rd rate drivers using it?

Another thing is MSports business itself. It is on the start of the model life they have likely the best chance to "sell" the car to other customers (and talents with money, like Suninen before or Gryazin). At this point if they only have Breen to do the promotion it's very risky business. I recently compared it with Citroen 2017 position with one good (but not epic) driver and 2 very inexperienced ones with no results. Add to that that Breen has very little experience on most of the rallies.

mknight

5th October 2021, 14:03

The stats before Hyundai maybe?
Always had a bad feeling about this team from things i've heard from many now, some things that would shock you...
https://www.ewrc-results.com/profile/142084-oliver-solberg/

(Almost) year ago when it was announced Solberg goes to Hyundai I was very skeptical here about it (the post it still here).

Because of the way they threated their drivers recently, most notably Huttunen who basically got his career destroyed by Hyundai and because of the lack of performance of the I20 R5. Since then Huttunen has been threated even worse and the new car is mediocre at best.

AMSS

5th October 2021, 14:04

As er88 says unless Malcolm Wilson lied about having money for paying top driver (5-8 mil EURO), he could afford all 3 of Breen, Lappi and Mikkelsen for that (next best available drivers).

Sure he might not want to use the money on other drivers. Which then brings us back to the point of MSport being a profit-making business and not a team doing everything for win. Exactly like Suninen just said. That by itself is fine, what is then not fine is the press-releases "pretending" they are doing everything to win. (Recall the recent pre-Greece news saying how Greensmith has shown he "deserves" WRC seat and is aiming to win a stage in Greece.)

What boggles me a bit is Ford position in this. By MSports words Ford is now using lot of money for developing the Puma and then they should be happy with 3rd rate drivers using it?

Another thing is MSports business itself. It is on the start of the model life they have likely the best chance to "sell" the car to other customers (and talents with money, like Suninen before or Gryazin). At this point if they only have Breen to do the promotion it's very risky business. I recently compared it with Citroen 2017 position with one good (but not epic) driver and 2 very inexperienced ones with no results. Add to that that Breen has very little experience on most of the rallies.

Also strange that M-sport are not investing heavily in their Rally 2 car, should be their most selling car in their range looking at national/ ERC series but this is not the case, and can`t blame customers for not buying as it seems to be behind the competitors especially on gravel.

bandit12

5th October 2021, 14:12

Always had a bad feeling about this team from things i've heard from many now, some things that would shock you...

Shock us please.

EstWRC

5th October 2021, 14:33

id like to know too

Gregor-y

5th October 2021, 14:52

So it seems, but taking a second look, there are many ways of polishing the juwel of Norweigan driver. He has some areas to improve. One is maybe making more exact pace notes.

He will for sure be a winner. Every driver needs to crash out to learn.

Were any of the French WRC drivers for the last thirty years crash-prone? In the English speaking world Colin McRae may have set a bad example.

mknight

5th October 2021, 15:13

Also strange that M-sport are not investing heavily in their Rally 2 car, should be their most selling car in their range looking at national/ ERC series but this is not the case, and can`t blame customers for not buying as it seems to be behind the competitors especially on gravel.

Agree, but I think it's a bit about timing as well.

When the Rally2 upgrade was introduced in mid 2019 they just spend a lot of money on Ogier and his 2018 title, without getting more from Ford. So maybe little funds and people for Rally2 development.
Then early on from 2020 COVID likely destroyed all finances and development as well as sales. Come to 2021 and Puma has priority.

Anyway indirectly you can say that MSports decline is caused by Skodas (and VWs) success, cause they took the biggest market (R5/Rally2), without "using" that money for WRC (even though Skoda was interested pre-2019). The main positive thing about that might be that they used it to develop quite a few new talents (Lappi, Rovanpera and partly O. Solberg).

mknight

5th October 2021, 15:15

Were any of the French WRC drivers for the last thirty years crash-prone? In the English speaking world Colin McRae may have set a bad example.

Duval if you count him as "French", Delecour (with Lancer WRC, might have been the car).

Mirek

5th October 2021, 17:13

Anyway indirectly you can say that MSports decline is caused by Skodas (and VWs) success, cause they took the biggest market (R5/Rally2), without "using" that money for WRC (even though Skoda was interested pre-2019). The main positive thing about that might be that they used it to develop quite a few new talents (Lappi, Rovanpera and partly O. Solberg).

AFAIK Škoda Motorsport runs on its own budget just like M-Sport does. Most of the money they spend on development come from the Rally 2 business.

denkimi

5th October 2021, 17:49

The stats before Hyundai maybe?
Always had a bad feeling about this team from things i've heard from many now, some things that would shock you...
https://www.ewrc-results.com/profile/142084-oliver-solberg/
Show me 5 results out of his entire career that made you think: this kid should be in a wrc car, he will be a future champion.

Just 5.

Rallyper

5th October 2021, 18:04

I wonder what makes anyone think he's a juwel or even a potential winner, except his last name.

So far he has shown neither the speed nor the reliability.

Then you´re totally blind. He already won a lot. But also crashing a lot. Why? Just tell me, you all experts, because it´s hard to point at any certain reason. There are a few lessons learn, yes.

TypeR

5th October 2021, 18:58

why you guys so b.utthurt about Solberg having his chances?
He isn't asking a penny from you, me, us..

Yes, he has crashed this season maybe a bit too much..
but don't forget that he has a lot of experience with many different cars(i20 WRC, VW, Fabia, i20(old&new) R5s, powerful RX cars, ARA Subaru Impreza etc)

He isn't in the team for nothing..

SubaruNorway

5th October 2021, 19:14

Show me 5 results out of his entire career that made you think: this kid should be in a wrc car, he will be a future champion.

Just 5.

I saw it already back in the days of filming him in crosskarts, now stop being so damn jealous and just let him drive.
I think he showed quite easy he has something to do in a WRC in Artic but you can't expect everything to go on rails this early.

doubled1978

5th October 2021, 19:24

I’m with you guys, let the kid do his thing. I agree he should probably be in a 4th car similar to Katsuta, but he can drive. Sordo/Suninen would be a good 3rd car option next year, but this lad just needs experience, and it might as well be in a top level car.

denkimi

5th October 2021, 20:41

A lot of fans here i see. Completely unbiassed of course.

Yet i'm still waiting for those results that will show me why i should consider him as a future champion.
Why would anyone choose him over mikkelsen, ostberg, Suninen, bulcacia or rossel right now?

Perhaps in a few years when he has shown he can reliably win rallies i will change my mind, but at the moment there is nothing that makes me think he will turn out to be a champion.

mknight

5th October 2021, 21:21

He has 4 very good results: Liepaja 2020, Estonia 2020, Monza 2020...and WRC Arctic.
Basically all of them (maybe besides Monza) were in a situation where nobody expected anything from him and he could only surprise.

Again as I wrote some 10 months ago next step has to be to learn to deliver results when he is expected to deliver. Rovanpera learned it the hard way after 3 crashes at start of 2019.

Solberg can learn this in WRC or WRC2 or even ERC, but so far this year he doesn't seem to be learning. Which is why people react cause the progress is stopped or going backwards yet he is getting pushed more and more up everytime he crashes. (Btw. after Safari Adamo said that Solberg will only drive WRC2 for rest of the year...). Always same talk about learning and improving from this and next rally is exactly the same.

Something needs to change, doesn't seem codriver was enough.