Should Redbull apologize?

[Nitrodaze]

Redbull and Horner in particular openly criticized and accused Hamilton of intentionally causing the accident between Hamilton and Verstappen at Silverstone. Phrases like "A seven-times world champion should know better", "He took me out", "Celebration was disrespectful", "Hamilton was desperate" were used. In particular, Redbull appears to have insinuated that Hamilton caused the accident on purpose to take out Verstappen in order to close the points gap to Verstappen.


We have discussed this at length in this forum. And opinions are divided as some diehard individuals; mostly with a deep-seated dislike for Hamilton, have insisted this is the case. Fortunately, the objective side of the FIA and F1M; the stewards, do not see it that way. The majority of drivers; active and retired do not see it that way either. Some of the finest analysts of F1, such as Peter Windsor and raft of F1 YouTubers do not see it the Redbull way either.

Mercedes has responded by pointing out that Redbull's reaction was inappropriately below the belt as Toto Wolff puts it. Some media pundits have assessed it and found that the Redbull reaction would in effect cast a shadow of doubt on Hamilton's conduct going forward which may attract harsher penalties in any future incidents. But most damning is, the wider effect of the reaction may have caused the flurry of racial abuses to Hamilton that followed. The strong negative reaction that exploded on the internet and on social media platforms. Enough for some of the most responsible platforms to openly react to these abuses. The extent of these reactions traced back to a Redbull staff that was fired upon discovery of their abusive statements on social media.

My question here is, do Redbull and Horner see that some form of apology may be required for how they have reacted and how that has in some way influenced the hate reaction that we have come to see on social media feeding from it? Is Horner big enough to raise his hands and say "With hindsight, we should have handled this better"?

That said, we could also say that this is the norm. Every generation of F1 introduces something new to the game. Maybe, open raw reactions, regardless of how right or wrong it is, is the new norm. This certainly falls in line with reality TV, a taste of which we got to see of Haas on Netflix. In which case, we could simply put it down to unfiltered human reactions to dramatic events with huge consequences. Even so, the line should be drawn somewhere. After all, this is an international event with far-reaching influences.

Hence, all F1 personalities that stand before a camera have an obligation to display human decency and the finest qualities that all humans should aspire to. And being a potential proponent for racial hate, is certainly not that. Thus, an apology of some sought would be the decent thing to do in my opinion.

[Zico]

Ok, I'll bite.. Someone needs to call it, I guess its me.. again.

So you can't have a difference of opinion on a matter or accuse someone of something if they have a different skin colour from you, because if you do and they receive racial abuse elsewhere you are responsible for inciting racial hatred where there was no racial element before? Yeah, that's real sound logic.. :stareup:

Throwing the race card at every person, group, company or incident when it isn't racially motivated and you don't agree with it, is just as wrong and twisted as the people who do actually perpetuate these wrongs.

I've pointed this out to you before but still you persevere with your devisive BS agenda here. Case in point.. you directly accused me of being racist because I don't like Lewis but even after I pointed out that I used to be a fan which my older forum posts back up... and that I even named my youngest son after him... YOU resolutely refused to apologise to me... yet here you are calling for a public apology from Red Bull/Horner for having their own opinion on an incident?

...and you wonder why you seem to get so much stick on here?

[denkimi]

So Hamilton takes verstappen out and you feel that redbull should appologise because they complain about it?

You are a lost cause.

[Nitrodaze]

Ok, I'll bite.. Someone needs to call it, I guess its me.. again.

So you can't have a difference of opinion on a matter or accuse someone of something if they have a different skin colour from you, because if you do and they receive racial abuse elsewhere you are responsible for inciting racial hatred where there was no racial element before? Yeah, that's real sound logic.. :stareup:

Throwing the race card at every person, group, company or incident when it isn't racially motivated and you don't agree with it, is just as wrong and twisted as the people who do actually perpetuate these wrongs.

I've pointed this out to you before but still you persevere with your devisive BS agenda here. Case in point.. you directly accused me of being racist because I don't like Lewis but even after I pointed out that I used to be a fan which my older forum posts back up... and that I even named my youngest son after him... YOU resolutely refused to apologise to me... yet here you are calling for a public apology from Red Bull/Horner for having their own opinion on an incident?

...and you wonder why you seem to get so much stick on here?

I don't understand why you think there is a race card in a simple question. Calm down and read the post again with a clear head. And l only get stick from you BTW.

[Nitrodaze]

So Hamilton takes verstappen out and you feel that redbull should appologise because they complain about it?

You are a lost cause.

Here we go again!

[Zico]

I don't understand why you think there is a race card in a simple question. Calm down and read the post again with a clear head. And l only get stick from you BTW.


...and being an potential proponent for racial hate, is certainly not that.



Are you not aware of what you are typing?

[Nitrodaze]

Are you not aware of what you are typing?

Come on! read the piece with an open head. I was only reflecting the views put forward by Mercedes who happen to think Horner should apologize. Be objective on how you read the piece and respond objectively. Picking on one line here and there is just nit picking.

[truefan72]

Come on! read the piece with an open head. I was only reflecting the views put forward by Mercedes who happen to think Horner should apologize. Be objective on how you read the piece and respond objectively. Picking on one line here and there is just knit picking.

you are asking too much from those 2.
They are already on my blocked list for obvious reasons.
Don't even bother I say.

[Bagwan]

Come on! read the piece with an open head. I was only reflecting the views put forward by Mercedes who happen to think Horner should apologize. Be objective on how you read the piece and respond objectively. Picking on one line here and there is just knit picking.

It is spelled "nit picking" not "knit picking" , and that , is nit picking .

[Bagwan]

you are asking too much from those 2.
They are already on my blocked list for obvious reasons.
Don't even bother I say.

Yeah , why bother with debate ?

Why are you even here ?

[truefan72]

Yeah , why bother with debate ?

Why are you even here ?

A debate would imply arguing from a position of knowledge, and at the very least reading the entire initial post and comprehending what the other person is trying to say.
Not cherry-picking certain sentences and then making it about something completely different.
I don't need to engage with certain people who clearly have an agenda no matter what, and find a way to twist things to fit that narrative.
Or they just flat out come out and spew their thinly lace vitriol.
Why you see the need to constantly defend them because you agree with one part of their argument while disregarding their motives is rather sad.
We have had many spirited debates in the past, but you have never resorted to their lows. I remember a time when we disagreed on certain topics and you and ioan were on the same side of that argument, but you had the decency to reign in or admonish ioan when his comments were out of line. Or St.Devote too (I think that was his name). What changed?

I'm not saying it is you, but the typical retort to bad faith arguments or statements is that it's "just debate"
And you know that it isn't. All it takes is for one incident to occur and their true colors always emerge.

Do you not find it odd, that none of them (and sadly yourself) have spent 18 pages blasting Bottas (and stroll to a lesser extent)
Arguing that he deliberately ruined both RBR's
Arguing for race bans and rule changes
Claiming he is a dirty driver
Vehemently lobbing aspersions to his character
Hoping that in the next race he get taken out
etc. Etc. Etc.

You don't find that odd?
Also where are all those folks on Max banging into another driver on an overtake?
Not a peep about MSC deliberately running into him, or room given or not making the apex, or whatever excuse for touching Max?
Despite max being the one, yet again, being hyper aggressive?

Even though those guys are on my ignore list, I can still view their post if i want too and none of them had anything to say about the Bottas incident, which was more dramatic and wild than what happened at silverstone. Not a single bloody comment on it apart from "this is wild" or "madness" without naming names.
You and I know that if it was Hamilton it would be a completely different discussion and if it was Perez who damaged both Mercedes cars, the same crowd would have been applauding it and calling it comeuppance for Silverstone.

So let's not pretend what the agenda is with certain posters, because it is quite clear.
That is why they are on my ignore list.
No matter what the discussion is, there is a clear slant in their commentary or fairness.

I immediately admonishes Bottas and stroll for their foolishness and ruining an exciting few laps with the top cars.
I was annoyed with Alonso battling Hamilton unnecessarily instead of going for p4 or p3. Then accepted that his mission was probably to be Ocon's wingman, to which I praised him for his efforts.
But, not a peep from those guys, except to take potshots, or argue false narratives that Nitrodaze tried to make.

Why you insist on defending them because you firmly believed Hamilton to be solely at fault at Silverstone seems shortsighted.
oh well.

time for a nice long summer break.
Stay healthy!

[Zico]

A debate would imply arguing from a position of knowledge, and at the very least reading the entire initial post and comprehending what the other person is trying to say.
Not cherry-picking certain sentences and then making it about something completely different.
I don't need to engage with certain people who clearly have an agenda no matter what, and find a way to twist things to fit that narrative.
Or they just flat out come out and spew their thinly lace vitriol.
Why you see the need to constantly defend them because you agree with one part of their argument while disregarding their motives is rather sad.
We have had many spirited debates in the past, but you have never resorted to their lows. I remember a time when we disagreed on certain topics and you and ioan were on the same side of that argument, but you had the decency to reign in or admonish ioan when his comments were out of line. Or St.Devote too (I think that was his name). What changed?

I'm not saying it is you, but the typical retort to bad faith arguments or statements is that it's "just debate"
And you know that it isn't. All it takes is for one incident to occur and their true colors always emerge.

Do you not find it odd, that none of them (and sadly yourself) have spent 18 pages blasting Bottas (and stroll to a lesser extent)
Arguing that he deliberately ruined both RBR's
Arguing for race bans and rule changes
Claiming he is a dirty driver
Vehemently lobbing aspersions to his character
Hoping that in the next race he get taken out
etc. Etc. Etc.

You don't find that odd?
Also where are all those folks on Max banging into another driver on an overtake?
Not a peep about MSC deliberately running into him, or room given or not making the apex, or whatever excuse for touching Max?
Despite max being the one, yet again, being hyper aggressive?

Even though those guys are on my ignore list, I can still view their post if i want too and none of them had anything to say about the Bottas incident, which was more dramatic and wild than what happened at silverstone. Not a single bloody comment on it apart from "this is wild" or "madness" without naming names.
You and I know that if it was Hamilton it would be a completely different discussion and if it was Perez who damaged both Mercedes cars, the same crowd would have been applauding it and calling it comeuppance for Silverstone.

So let's not pretend what the agenda is with certain posters, because it is quite clear.
That is why they are on my ignore list.
No matter what the discussion is, there is a clear slant in their commentary or fairness.

I immediately admonishes Bottas and stroll for their foolishness and ruining an exciting few laps with the top cars.
I was annoyed with Alonso battling Hamilton unnecessarily instead of going for p4 or p3. Then accepted that his mission was probably to be Ocon's wingman, to which I praised him for his efforts.
But, not a peep from those guys, except to take potshots, or argue false narratives that Nitrodaze tried to make.

Why you insist on defending them because you firmly believed Hamilton to be solely at fault at Silverstone seems shortsighted.
oh well.

time for a nice long summer break.
Stay healthy!



Yeah, a debate would be these things but maybe certain people are just a bit pissed off by being constantly accused of hate, prejudice and racism that they tend to look for it coming up and then show the poster what they have just done... yet again. Just as you have done above, thinly veiled, yet again and I won't stand for it.

You guys need to realise that if someone doesn't particularly like someone that does not necessarily make them racist. My old Lewis supporting posts of just a few years ago and even naming my youngest boy after him absolutely show that is not the case so GFY, stop trying to take the moral high ground, trying to silence people with your constant racism BS... its devisive, offensive, pathetic and just as vile as racism itself.

[Nitrodaze]

It is spelled "nit picking" not "knit picking" , and that , is nit picking .

Maybe in Canada it is.

[Nitrodaze]

Yeah , why bother with debate ?

Why are you even here ?

What has happened to you Baggie? This is very unlike you. You know too well that we cannot make allowances for individuals that use this platform to unfairly criticize drivers because they have a dislike for them. Especially if their posts have a pattern that clearly shows a bias with an unreasonable hint of hatred. As Truefan has pointed out, these criticisms are rarely consistently made to all other drivers when similar incidents occur. And they usually take the form of an over reaction with overbearing demand for unreasonable actions to be taken.


Yeah, a debate would be these things but maybe certain people are just a bit pissed off by being constantly accused of hate, prejudice and racism that they tend to look for it coming up and then show the poster what they have just done... yet again. Just as you have done above, thinly veiled, yet again and I won't stand for it.

You guys need to realise that if someone doesn't particularly like someone that does not necessarily make them racist. My old Lewis supporting posts of just a few years ago and even naming my youngest boy after him absolutely show that is not the case so GFY, stop trying to take the moral high ground, trying to silence people with your constant racism BS... its devisive, offensive, pathetic and just as vile as racism itself.

As we analyze the races with rigour, so do we analyze the posts on here. We call things what they are as we find them to be. You cannot act in a way that is clearly prejudicial and be offended when you are pointed out to be so doing. Your recent posts have been very disappointing.

[Nitrodaze]

Are you not aware of what you are typing?

You overlooked the use of the word "potential". It does not imply "responsible for" but suggests "suspected to be".

Just read carefully buddy, it is in black and white before you.

[denkimi]

Yeah , why bother with debate ?

Why are you even here ?
There's no point in debating with people who are beyond normal fans, aka fanboys.

I find it hard to understand how someone can pick a favorite at random and then just defend that person what ever he does. Going as far as distorting and ignoring reality.

It must be kinda the same thing as a religion i suppose. You can't reason with them, you can't convince them. They will use their own sort of twisted logic.


Just look at truefan's comments on hungary. First he was mad that gasly wasn't just letting Hamilton pass, and after that he was mad that alonso also didn't just let Hamilton pass so he could take the win from his teammate occon.

There's no more logic in his thinking. He doesn't feel like it's a race, he feels like everybody who is not hamilton is just there to hinder hamilton and stop him from winning. He can't comprehend that other drivers and other teams can have different interests beyond that.

[Big Ben]

I for one agree with the OP. I was one of those who couldn't care less what colour Hamilton's skin has. But then nitrowoke convinced me out of my wicked racist ways and now I'm aspiring to be a member of the Church of Woke. Now all I can think about when I'm pondering something Hamilton did or said is, don't forget he's black! I know it's not his actions that matter, or his character but the skin of his colour. That is the not racist way of the woke. So yes, RBR and that little psychopath driver of theirs should apologize, because Hamilton is black. Alonso should too. What's he doing there holding the black one. That racist SOB!

I have some doubts what I'm supposed to thing about him if he finally gets his skin entirely covered with ink but I'm going to deal with this theological question when we get there. I'll ask my woke priest here.

[gm99]

Maybe in Canada it is.

Everywhere in the English speaking world it is. It derives from nits, the eggs of lice.
Knit picking would be an old lady making her choice in the craft shop ;)

[Nitrodaze]

I for one agree with the OP. I was one of those who couldn't care less what colour Hamilton's skin has. But then nitrowoke convinced me out of my wicked racist ways and now I'm aspiring to be a member of the Church of Woke. Now all I can think about when I'm pondering something Hamilton did or said is, don't forget he's black! I know it's not his actions that matter, or his character but the skin of his colour. That is the not racist way of the woke. So yes, RBR and that little psychopath driver of theirs should apologize, because Hamilton is black. Alonso should too. What's he doing there holding the black one. That racist SOB!

I have some doubts what I'm supposed to thing about him if he finally gets his skin entirely covered with ink but I'm going to deal with this theological question when we get there. I'll ask my woke priest here.

I think we should stop this train of conversation now. It has gone far from racing-related discussions which this forum is about. How you derived skin colour from the discussions raised is interesting. Why it has become a focal point in your thinking is also interesting. I think you have a psychological issue with skin colour. It jumps out at you from everything you read or hear.

If there is any problem here, it is entirely in you. And you see the world through it. This is kind of like telling a drunk that he has had enough; you are drunk buddy. And he slurrily says, what are you talking about "l am in complete command of my faculties, l would have you know". Clearly, it is apparent you cannot communicate what is wrong with his faculties, as the reasoning centre of his faculties is impaired by his condition.

This is very much similar to people that have been socially conditioned through years of social engineering to instantly take a dislike or mistrust of people of other races. And this goes to the very centre of the divide that has driven this discussion. The interesting thing is, you are quite oblivious to the fact of what you are doing. It just comes naturally to you so it must be OK.

[Nitrodaze]

Everywhere in the English speaking world it is. It derives from nits, the eggs of lice.
Knit picking would be an old lady making her choice in the craft shop ;)

Thanks for the correction. I am not an expert on lice eggs.

[Big Ben]

I think we should stop this train of conversation now. It has gone far from racing-related discussions which this forum is about. How you derived skin colour from the discussions raised is interesting. Why it has become a focal point in your thinking is also interesting. I think you have a psychological issue with skin colour. It jumps out at you from everything you read or hear.


That's rich. I think you made it a point of discussion the fact that Hamilton should be handled in a different manner because of the colour of his skin in the "racing-related discussion" you initiated. The reason I made my post about this is because I don't care about all the other non-sense you posted but I felt I should address this poison you keep spreading. So the focal point is not on "the skin colour" but your ridiculous twisted logic. No-one else here seems to care about the fact Hamilton is black. They have on point of view or the other about this incident, it's you who brings about the race issue. Kind of ironic how the only one obsessed with the Hamilton's race keeps calling people racists left and right, isn't it? It is. I'm telling you cause I can't trust you with the answer.


If there is any problem here, it is entirely in you. And you see the world through it. This is kind of like telling a drunk that he has had enough; you are drunk buddy. And he slurrily says, what are you talking about "l am in complete command of my faculties, l would have you know". Clearly, it is apparent you cannot communicate what is wrong with his faculties, as the reasoning centre of his faculties is impaired by his condition.

RBR criticizes Hamilton for racing related stuff, racists abuse Hamilton, ergo RBR at fault for other people's racism.
That's the logic of the sober one and anyone who doesn't agree with this logic is mentally impaired. Me as a mentally impaired person thought the racists should apologize. Silly me. According to the sober one it's not racists who are the problem in this issue but the people who expressed their point of view on what happened in a completely non racial way. Solid logic all around.


This is very much similar to people that have been socially conditioned through years of social engineering to instantly take a dislike or mistrust of people of other races. And this goes to the very centre of the divide that has driven this discussion. The interesting thing is, you are quite oblivious to the fact of what you are doing. It just comes naturally to you so it must be OK.

What a load of condescending illogical BS. By you're logic racists have no responsibility. They just don't know better because they've been "socially engineered".
I for one have a very strong dislike for Hamilton, the man. I find his lifestyle worthy of contempt. And all this virtue signaling and hypocrisy just make it all worse. The guy's paid millions of dollars to race petrol-guzzling toys, has a fleet of supercars, flies his dog around the world in a private jet and then he preaches people about climate change. But all this is just made-up excuses, I just don't like him without knowing it because he's black because I'm socially engineered. Did I get it right?
I just wonder who did bother to socially engineer me against black people in a country with no black population.

[Big Ben]

Thanks for the correction. I am not an expert on lice eggs.

You don't need to be an expert on lice eggs. It would have been enough not to be cocksure and check it out before replying

[Bagwan]

That's rich. I think you made it a point of discussion the fact that Hamilton should be handled in a different manner because of the colour of his skin in the "racing-related discussion" you initiated. The reason I made my post about this is because I don't care about all the other non-sense you posted but I felt I should address this poison you keep spreading. So the focal point is not on "the skin colour" but your ridiculous twisted logic. No-one else here seems to care about the fact Hamilton is black. They have on point of view or the other about this incident, it's you who brings about the race issue. Kind of ironic how the only one obsessed with the Hamilton's race keeps calling people racists left and right, isn't it? It is. I'm telling you cause I can't trust you with the answer.



RBR criticizes Hamilton for racing related stuff, racists abuse Hamilton, ergo RBR at fault for other people's racism.
That's the logic of the sober one and anyone who doesn't agree with this logic is mentally impaired. Me as a mentally impaired person thought the racists should apologize. Silly me. According to the sober one it's not racists who are the problem in this issue but the people who expressed their point of view on what happened in a completely non racial way. Solid logic all around.



What a load of condescending illogical BS. By you're logic racists have no responsibility. They just don't know better because they've been "socially engineered".
I for one have a very strong dislike for Hamilton, the man. I find his lifestyle worthy of contempt. And all this virtue signaling and hypocrisy just make it all worse. The guy's paid millions of dollars to race petrol-guzzling toys, has a fleet of supercars, flies his dog around the world in a private jet and then he preaches people about climate change. But all this is just made-up excuses, I just don't like him without knowing it because he's black because I'm socially engineered. Did I get it right?
I just wonder who did bother to socially engineer me against black people in a country with no black population.

I hope you read , and take in Ben's post .
You got the lecture this time , and deserved it .

And , by the way , it was I who deserved thanks for the "nit" correction .

[airshifter]

This is reaching beyond insane IMHO.

If anyone should be issuing apologies, it should be the ones accusing others of racism when there is no evidence of that being the case.

[joe1888cfc]

Are you nuts! If anything is should be other way around

[joe1888cfc]

This is reaching beyond insane IMHO.

If anyone should be issuing apologies, it should be the ones accusing others of racism when there is no evidence of that being the case.
Accusing without evidence should carry a harder sentence

[Nitrodaze]

That's rich. I think you made it a point of discussion the fact that Hamilton should be handled in a different manner because of the colour of his skin in the "racing-related discussion" you initiated. The reason I made my post about this is because I don't care about all the other non-sense you posted but I felt I should address this poison you keep spreading. So the focal point is not on "the skin colour" but your ridiculous twisted logic. No-one else here seems to care about the fact Hamilton is black. They have on point of view or the other about this incident, it's you who brings about the race issue. Kind of ironic how the only one obsessed with the Hamilton's race keeps calling people racists left and right, isn't it? It is. I'm telling you cause I can't trust you with the answer.



RBR criticizes Hamilton for racing related stuff, racists abuse Hamilton, ergo RBR at fault for other people's racism.
That's the logic of the sober one and anyone who doesn't agree with this logic is mentally impaired. Me as a mentally impaired person thought the racists should apologize. Silly me. According to the sober one it's not racists who are the problem in this issue but the people who expressed their point of view on what happened in a completely non racial way. Solid logic all around.



What a load of condescending illogical BS. By you're logic racists have no responsibility. They just don't know better because they've been "socially engineered".
I for one have a very strong dislike for Hamilton, the man. I find his lifestyle worthy of contempt. And all this virtue signaling and hypocrisy just make it all worse. The guy's paid millions of dollars to race petrol-guzzling toys, has a fleet of supercars, flies his dog around the world in a private jet and then he preaches people about climate change. But all this is just made-up excuses, I just don't like him without knowing it because he's black because I'm socially engineered. Did I get it right?
I just wonder who did bother to socially engineer me against black people in a country with no black population.

Well, thank you for the insults. You make your point exactly like l have been pointing out you go about it. I think we have thrashed this donkey to death. Let's park it until another time eh.

The problem with your perception is your poor comprehension of politically correct prejudice. You don't have to make a statement directly pertaining to what makes an individual a candidate for the reception of prejudice. It is how you behave in relation to them that make your act prejudicial. And it apply's in the same manner to all groups of people that live their daily lives in the shadow of all manner of prejudices. From colour related prejudices, to religion-related prejudices the Muslims suffer, to gender-related prejudices that women have endured since the beginning of time. To sexual orientation related prejudices, that gay people are enduring currently. To disability-related prejudices. To culture-related prejudices and the list goes on and on.

This may take the form of overly strong criticism, over-reaction to minor things they do, overbearing demands for actions that are under normal conditions inapplicable or just sheer hate statements. You would not find anywhere in my posts where l make any reference to Hamilton's blackness; which he should be proud of by the way. But somehow you seem to zero in on that factor. And your post points out this aspect very strongly, yet you would not find any reference to it in my posts.

The disappointing thing about your post is the surprising insensitivity to the subject matter in discussion. Your natural instinct is to go on the offensive in defence of what is actually immaterial to what is the point of discussion. A more respectable response would at least address why Horner should not apologize. Unfortunately, you have taken the route of insults and feigning the offended.

By the way, Hamilton sold his private jet due to his feelings about climate change. If you bother to find this out before you start disliking him.

At least you are honest, that you don't like him. Your reason for not liking him is very misplaced. Hence, my analysis of you is at least accurate. So you have no real cause to get upset with me about it. The fact is you know nothing about the man besides his racing. There is more to Hamilton than you actually know. Your poor information about the man is what causes your ill-judged dislike for him. The more you say about the topic only reveals the depth of your ignorance of the subject.

[Nitrodaze]

You don't need to be an expert on lice eggs. It would have been enough not to be cocksure and check it out before replying

Point taken, oh great one that does not make mistakes.

[Nitrodaze]

I think we have said enough on the subject. As l pointed out, there are two very strong views on the matter. And they appear irreconcilable. The very attempt to discuss the matter is very uncomfortable to many. Some see it as an accusation of being racists. Which you would not find in my post either. Though l have suggested that some are overly critical of Hamilton. But not equally so when other drivers do the same thing.

If it was Hamilton that caused the pileup at the start of the Hungarian GP, these individuals would have plenty to say about it. Their post would be laced with venom. As it was Bottas, it was a non-event. Nor was the crash of Stroll into the side of the Ferrari. Not a single peep about it. But you all had plenty to say about a racing incident that was just as innocent as those two Hungarian incidents, because the Silverstone incident involved Hamilton. The Hungarian damage was just as bad; actually worst. Perez was just as much in danger of being killed in that crash. The cost is not dissimilar. Redbull is probably still going to pay the £1.3m cost of repairing that car as well, and more for Verstappen's car.

I think you all should stop for a moment and examine your selves. Your acts and statements are analysed in detail and we call your actions as we see them. You may find my observations uncomfortable. Take that as a clue that you need to take a reflective look at yourselves.

[Firstgear]

I think we have said enough on the subject.
You should have taken your own advice and stopped right there.

[Nitrodaze]

You should have taken your own advice and stopped right there.

I agree. Enough said.

[truefan72]

I think we have said enough on the subject. As l pointed out, there are two very strong views on the matter. And they appear irreconcilable. The very attempt to discuss the matter is very uncomfortable to many. Some see it as an accusation of being racists. Which you would not find in my post either. Though l have suggested that some are overly critical of Hamilton. But not equally so when other drivers do the same thing.

If it was Hamilton that caused the pileup at the start of the Hungarian GP, these individuals would have plenty to say about it. Their post would be laced with venom. As it was Bottas, it was a non-event. Nor was the crash of Stroll into the side of the Ferrari. Not a single peep about it. But you all had plenty to say about a racing incident that was just as innocent as those two Hungarian incidents, because the Silverstone incident involved Hamilton. The Hungarian damage was just as bad; actually worst. Perez was just as much in danger of being killed in that crash. The cost is not dissimilar. Redbull is probably still going to pay the £1.3m cost of repairing that car as well, and more for Verstappen's car.

I think you all should stop for a moment and examine your selves. Your acts and statements are analysed in detail and we call your actions as we see them. You may find my observations uncomfortable. Take that as a clue that you need to take a reflective look at yourselves.

Essentially that was my point and I got no response except for some vitriolic off topic responses about perceived perceptions about their nature.
As i said, i wonder why there have not been 20 pages about the bottas incident or stroll. Not a single word, nothing.
The strongest criticisms came from me and a few others who are deemed "fan boys" or biased. laughable
The guy took out both Red Bulls and a Mclaren as well as damaging the other Mclaren and Stroll took out the Ferrari and nearly the Alpha Tauri.
But zero discussion on that? All those "if it were somebody else, I'd be making the same criticism" folks had nothing to say.
Many didn't even bother coming back to the forum to have their say. So this is about as clear evidence as any about the actual bias.
And as usual the last resort is to accuse those pointing out the imbalance as the actual ones biased. Etc.
Yeah, that's why I don't waste my time trying to get into those arguments with them.

That say's it all to me

[Mia 01]

If we can´t discuss Hamilton, then the forum can close.

[joe1888cfc]

Well, thank you for the insults. You make your point exactly like l have been pointing out you go about it. I think we have thrashed this donkey to death. Let's park it until another time eh.

The problem with your perception is your poor comprehension of politically correct prejudice. You don't have to make a statement directly pertaining to what makes an individual a candidate for the reception of prejudice. It is how you behave in relation to them that make your act prejudicial. And it apply's in the same manner to all groups of people that live their daily lives in the shadow of all manner of prejudices. From colour related prejudices, to religion-related prejudices the Muslims suffer, to gender-related prejudices that women have endured since the beginning of time. To sexual orientation related prejudices, that gay people are enduring currently. To disability-related prejudices. To culture-related prejudices and the list goes on and on.

This may take the form of overly strong criticism, over-reaction to minor things they do, overbearing demands for actions that are under normal conditions inapplicable or just sheer hate statements. You would not find anywhere in my posts where l make any reference to Hamilton's blackness; which he should be proud of by the way. But somehow you seem to zero in on that factor. And your post points out this aspect very strongly, yet you would not find any reference to it in my posts.

The disappointing thing about your post is the surprising insensitivity to the subject matter in discussion. Your natural instinct is to go on the offensive in defence of what is actually immaterial to what is the point of discussion. A more respectable response would at least address why Horner should not apologize. Unfortunately, you have taken the route of insults and feigning the offended.

By the way, Hamilton sold his private jet due to his feelings about climate change. If you bother to find this out before you start disliking him.

At least you are honest, that you don't like him. Your reason for not liking him is very misplaced. Hence, my analysis of you is at least accurate. So you have no real cause to get upset with me about it. The fact is you know nothing about the man besides his racing. There is more to Hamilton than you actually know. Your poor information about the man is what causes your ill-judged dislike for him. The more you say about the topic only reveals the depth of your ignorance of the subject.

Not reading all that. What a bore you are!

[Nitrodaze]

If we can´t discuss Hamilton, then the forum can close.

Mia, Hamilton is controversial. Inevitably we have to discuss Hamilton. I am saying be fair and just and equitable in your discussion about him. Being overly critical or writing hate laced posts is not discussing Hamilton. It is doing hate posts which l am strongly against.

[Nitrodaze]

Not reading all that. What a bore you are!

yea yea. I bet you wouldn't understand it if you try.

[Bagwan]

Essentially that was my point and I got no response except for some vitriolic off topic responses about perceived perceptions about their nature.
As i said, i wonder why there have not been 20 pages about the bottas incident or stroll. Not a single word, nothing.
The strongest criticisms came from me and a few others who are deemed "fan boys" or biased. laughable
The guy took out both Red Bulls and a Mclaren as well as damaging the other Mclaren and Stroll took out the Ferrari and nearly the Alpha Tauri.
But zero discussion on that? All those "if it were somebody else, I'd be making the same criticism" folks had nothing to say.
Many didn't even bother coming back to the forum to have their say. So this is about as clear evidence as any about the actual bias.
And as usual the last resort is to accuse those pointing out the imbalance as the actual ones biased. Etc.
Yeah, that's why I don't waste my time trying to get into those arguments with them.

That say's it all to me

If it makes you feel better , I'll say Bottas was an idiot in that one , and Stroll was almost as bad .
But , I don't think there's any debate for anyone in that one , because I don't think anyone would disagree .

That , I think is why nobody felt the need to say it , rather than some bias against Lewis .

[Bagwan]

yea yea. I bet you wouldn't understand it if you try.

Nitro , you brought racism into this discussion .

If you wish to lecture someone on the topic , find the idiots who hurled the insults at Lewis .

We were talking about the incident .

[joe1888cfc]

yea yea. I bet you wouldn't understand it if you try.That's racist.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

[Nitrodaze]

Nitro , you brought racism into this discussion .

If you wish to lecture someone on the topic , find the idiots who hurled the insults at Lewis .

We were talking about the incident .

I have had enough with this. Time to move on to the next controversy.

[Nitrodaze]

That's racist.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

Ok, how did you work that out? What is racist about it?

[joe1888cfc]

Ok, how did you work that out? What is racist about it?Well everything's racist to you so figure it out

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

[Nitrodaze]

Well everything's racist to you so figure it out

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

Time to move on l think.

[F1nKS]

yea yea. I bet you wouldn't understand it if you try.

Hmm....personal attacks, pejorative slurs...I bet you want to move on. You might want to look in the mirror before you toss any more rocks in your glass house.

[Nitrodaze]

Hmm....personal attacks, pejorative slurs...I bet you want to move on. You might want to look in the mirror before you toss any more rocks in your glass house.

Save it for the next controversy buddy, we are moving on.

[F1nKS]

Save it for the next controversy buddy, we are moving on.

Let me know when you fully contemplated yourself in the mirror.

[Nitrodaze]

Let me know when you fully contemplated yourself in the mirror.

Have you done the same yet? Have you properly looked at your Mexican hatred? Your targeting Perez on here with snide comments and unfair criticisms.

A Hippo calling the pig fat!

[F1nKS]

Have you done the same yet? Have you properly looked at your Mexican hatred? Your targeting Perez on here with snide comments and unfair criticisms.

A Hippo calling the pig fat!

You only see everything in the "lens of racism". It actually people like you who fan the flames of racism for your own agenda.

So Perez can't be criticized because he is of Mexican descent? It would be me trying to make are argument you targeting Max with your constant snipping because he isn't British. It is a foolish argument. But maybe it is true because Alonso said the British are racist against anybody not from England.

FWIW, Perez deserves the criticism, just like Bottas - they are both in top cars in the field, but are not consistently delivering where they should be. Perez race in Austrian GP was amateur hour. He has to be better the 2nd half of the season or he won't be back with Red Bull next year. There are some in RB that want Gasly in the RB seat, and Albon in Alpha Tauri.

[Nitrodaze]

You only see everything in the "lens of racism". It actually people like you who fan the flames of racism for your own agenda.

So Perez can't be criticized because he is of Mexican descent? It would be me trying to make are argument you targeting Max with your constant snipping because he isn't British. It is a foolish argument. But maybe it is true because Alonso said the British are racist against anybody not from England.

FWIW, Perez deserves the criticism, just like Bottas - they are both in top cars in the field, but are not consistently delivering where they should be. Perez race in Austrian GP was amateur hour. He has to be better the 2nd half of the season or he won't be back with Red Bull next year. There are some in RB that want Gasly in the RB seat, and Albon in Alpha Tauri.

If you apply the same criticism to other drivers in the same circumstances, then you would not stand out as targeting one individual. You cannot act the way you do and not expect people to notice.

Now you generalize that all people from a country are racist because they come from that country. The thing is, that could be said for any country on the planet. You are now targeting English people specifically in your statement of prejudice.

Everyone who has been following F1, knows the second seat at Redbull is in the difficult part of the Redbull garage for unknown reasons. Many have failed in that seat, not necessarily due to inability. But due to the very nature of how that part of the Redbull garage appears to operate. The mere fact that Perez has been the most successful driver to occupy that seat since Ricciardo, is not acknowledged by you. All you do is criticize.

That is the hardest seat in F1 for a driver to operate at their best. And the disparity between both cars in the Redbull garage tell the story. You have to take into consideration that Perez is a two times race winner. He knows how to win races. The up and down performance from him is not necessarily due to him alone. there are other factors involved. And your comments would be fair and insightful if you at least try to analyse those other factors. The fact that you have not even tried to look at those other factors comes across as a focused targeting of Perez.

[Zico]

Save it for the next controversy buddy, we are moving on.


I thought we were moving on?

Yet again, insinuating that when someone here dislikes someone it must be because of race or nationality, is actually not putting yourself in the position of strength for debate that somehow seem to think..

You are merely showing everyone here how warped your logic is and how weqk your debating skills are that you automatically resort to this tactic as your default stance, especially when you have zero evidence for it.

You haven't learned a thing.

[Bagwan]

If you apply the same criticism to other drivers in the same circumstances, then you would not stand out as targeting one individual. You cannot act the way you do and not expect people to notice.

Now you generalize that all people from a country are racist because they come from that country. The thing is, that could be said for any country on the planet. You are now targeting English people specifically in your statement of prejudice.

Everyone who has been following F1, knows the second seat at Redbull is in the difficult part of the Redbull garage for unknown reasons. Many have failed in that seat, not necessarily due to inability. But due to the very nature of how that part of the Redbull garage appears to operate. The mere fact that Perez has been the most successful driver to occupy that seat since Ricciardo, is not acknowledged by you. All you do is criticize.

That is the hardest seat in F1 for a driver to operate at their best. And the disparity between both cars in the Redbull garage tell the story. You have to take into consideration that Perez is a two times race winner. He knows how to win races. The up and down performance from him is not necessarily due to him alone. there are other factors involved. And your comments would be fair and insightful if you at least try to analyse those other factors. The fact that you have not even tried to look at those other factors comes across as a focused targeting of Perez.

He criticized both Perez and Bottas , and then you criticized him for only being critical of Perez .

" You cannot act the way you do and not expect people to notice."

[Nitrodaze]

He criticized both Perez and Bottas , and then you criticized him for only being critical of Perez .

" You cannot act the way you do and not expect people to notice."

He only brought Bottas in to save face. I am fed up with this. So let's park it, please. Everyone is entitled to act according to their intelligence. Just leave the rest of us out of it.

[F1nKS]

If you apply the same criticism to other drivers in the same circumstances, then you would not stand out as targeting one individual. You cannot act the way you do and not expect people to notice.

LOL, all you have to look at my post history. I have criticism of Hamilton, Perez, Bottas, Stroll, Mazespin, Kimi, Ricciardo...and even Verstappen.



Now you generalize that all people from a country are racist because they come from that country. The thing is, that could be said for any country on the planet. You are now targeting English people specifically in your statement of prejudice.

Actually those were Alonso words. He said that about the British. But I see you don't like your "schtick" turned back around on you.


Everyone who has been following F1, knows the second seat at Redbull is in the difficult part of the Redbull garage for unknown reasons. Many have failed in that seat, not necessarily due to inability. But due to the very nature of how that part of the Redbull garage appears to operate. The mere fact that Perez has been the most successful driver to occupy that seat since Ricciardo, is not acknowledged by you. All you do is criticize.

Plenty of other people who follow and talk about formula 1 are saying Perez has underperformed. The common theme is they look at Sainz, Perez and Ricciardo and the common theme is:

1. Sainz has adapted the quickest to his new drive and is helping his team.

2. Perez is in the middle of the two driver for adapting. Some good, but some very poor. Overall is underperforming for where the car performance.

3. Ricciardo has been the worst for adapting, but has somehow continue to find a way to at least stay in the points.

Perez was brought in for 1 reason - to be a Max wingman and to bring a championship. If he can't do the job, they would have been better off leaving Albon in the position and continue to develop.


That is the hardest seat in F1 for a driver to operate at their best. And the disparity between both cars in the Redbull garage tell the story. You have to take into consideration that Perez is a two times race winner.

This is such a weak argument. Look at the top 6 teams, 4 of those teams have big disparities between #1 and #2. Lucky for Red Bull that Bottas has a greater disparity than Red Bull between Hamilton and Bottas or they would be in trouble.

The issue for Red Bull is not some curse on Seat #2, the problem is Red Bull wasn't ready (nor were they expecting Ricciardo to go to Renault). They didn't have a backup plan. They rushed Gasly into the seat, pulled the rug out from under him mid-season and then rushed Albon into the seat. Two promising young drivers who were crushed. Now they are rushing Yuki into the 2nd team when he is not ready. That is the real issue. It not because Max is in the other car.

Meanwhile, Mercedes stuck their future hope in back of the grid team to have a low stress environment to learn. McClaren have brought Lando along slowly (though he is proving to be a special talent).


He knows how to win races.

He has had 2 wins, one last year and one this year. That not a long track record of winning success. He only has 2 podiums this year, in a car that should be fighting for podium every race.


The up and down performance from him is not necessarily due to him alone. there are other factors involved. And your comments would be fair and insightful if you at least try to analyse those other factors. The fact that you have not even tried to look at those other factors comes across as a focused targeting of Perez.

My opinion of Perez is he is a good mid-field racer who know how to look after his tires and that allow him the ability to grab good results when the opportunity presents itself. He is not very good at extracting single lap pace - so his qualifying is subpar. He seem to struggle with wheel to wheel racing (his effort against Leclerc and Norris highlighted that).

He is better at being a under-the-radar type guy, he doesn't seem to handle the pressure to well. Maybe we will see a different Perez in the 2nd half of the season.

I hope he has a great second half of the season and beats Bottas every time. It will be interesting to see if Red Bull renews his contract for next year during the summer break to take some of the pressure off him, or will they do what they did with Albon and wait...just because they don't think Perez has any better options.

I think it is 60% they keep him. I think the Mercedes announcement will set off things (for the whole grid). But Red Bull can be unpredictable.

[Bagwan]

LOL, all you have to look at my post history. I have criticism of Hamilton, Perez, Bottas, Stroll, Mazespin, Kimi, Ricciardo...and even Verstappen.




Actually those were Alonso words. He said that about the British. But I see you don't like your "schtick" turned back around on you.



Plenty of other people who follow and talk about formula 1 are saying Perez has underperformed. The common theme is they look at Sainz, Perez and Ricciardo and the common theme is:

1. Sainz has adapted the quickest to his new drive and is helping his team.

2. Perez is in the middle of the two driver for adapting. Some good, but some very poor. Overall is underperforming for where the car performance.

3. Ricciardo has been the worst for adapting, but has somehow continue to find a way to at least stay in the points.

Perez was brought in for 1 reason - to be a Max wingman and to bring a championship. If he can't do the job, they would have been better off leaving Albon in the position and continue to develop.



This is such a weak argument. Look at the top 6 teams, 4 of those teams have big disparities between #1 and #2. Lucky for Red Bull that Bottas has a greater disparity than Red Bull between Hamilton and Bottas or they would be in trouble.

The issue for Red Bull is not some curse on Seat #2, the problem is Red Bull wasn't ready (nor were they expecting Ricciardo to go to Renault). They didn't have a backup plan. They rushed Gasly into the seat, pulled the rug out from under him mid-season and then rushed Albon into the seat. Two promising young drivers who were crushed. Now they are rushing Yuki into the 2nd team when he is not ready. That is the real issue. It not because Max is in the other car.

Meanwhile, Mercedes stuck their future hope in back of the grid team to have a low stress environment to learn. McClaren have brought Lando along slowly (though he is proving to be a special talent).



He has had 2 wins, one last year and one this year. That not a long track record of winning success. He only has 2 podiums this year, in a car that should be fighting for podium every race.



My opinion of Perez is he is a good mid-field racer who know how to look after his tires and that allow him the ability to grab good results when the opportunity presents itself. He is not very good at extracting single lap pace - so his qualifying is subpar. He seem to struggle with wheel to wheel racing (his effort against Leclerc and Norris highlighted that).

He is better at being a under-the-radar type guy, he doesn't seem to handle the pressure to well. Maybe we will see a different Perez in the 2nd half of the season.

I hope he has a great second half of the season and beats Bottas every time. It will be interesting to see if Red Bull renews his contract for next year during the summer break to take some of the pressure off him, or will they do what they did with Albon and wait...just because they don't think Perez has any better options.

I think it is 60% they keep him. I think the Mercedes announcement will set off things (for the whole grid). But Red Bull can be unpredictable.

Nice analysis .

For Danny Ric , I remember an article that mentioned him asking Carlos "Why didn't you tell me about that?" .
What "that" referred to was not at all clear , but it's something that's very tricky and a real quirk for the Mac drivers to deal with .
And it looks worse for the honey badger because Lando has it down .

In a way , I think it is a little the same at Red Bull , where Max's style is hard to copy without time to learn a new way .

[F1nKS]

Nice analysis .

For Danny Ric , I remember an article that mentioned him asking Carlos "Why didn't you tell me about that?" .
What "that" referred to was not at all clear , but it's something that's very tricky and a real quirk for the Mac drivers to deal with .
And it looks worse for the honey badger because Lando has it down .

In a way , I think it is a little the same at Red Bull , where Max's style is hard to copy without time to learn a new way .

Yes. That is good points.

[Bagwan]

They get along like dogs and cats . That's why they couldn't live in the same corner .

Lewis likes dogs (vegan ones) , and Max likes cats (because they don't care) , and they never apologize .

This makes much more sense now .

[Nitrodaze]

LOL, all you have to look at my post history. I have criticism of Hamilton, Perez, Bottas, Stroll, Mazespin, Kimi, Ricciardo...and even Verstappen.




Actually those were Alonso words. He said that about the British. But I see you don't like your "schtick" turned back around on you.



Plenty of other people who follow and talk about formula 1 are saying Perez has underperformed. The common theme is they look at Sainz, Perez and Ricciardo and the common theme is:

1. Sainz has adapted the quickest to his new drive and is helping his team.

2. Perez is in the middle of the two driver for adapting. Some good, but some very poor. Overall is underperforming for where the car performance.

3. Ricciardo has been the worst for adapting, but has somehow continue to find a way to at least stay in the points.

Perez was brought in for 1 reason - to be a Max wingman and to bring a championship. If he can't do the job, they would have been better off leaving Albon in the position and continue to develop.



This is such a weak argument. Look at the top 6 teams, 4 of those teams have big disparities between #1 and #2. Lucky for Red Bull that Bottas has a greater disparity than Red Bull between Hamilton and Bottas or they would be in trouble.

The issue for Red Bull is not some curse on Seat #2, the problem is Red Bull wasn't ready (nor were they expecting Ricciardo to go to Renault). They didn't have a backup plan. They rushed Gasly into the seat, pulled the rug out from under him mid-season and then rushed Albon into the seat. Two promising young drivers who were crushed. Now they are rushing Yuki into the 2nd team when he is not ready. That is the real issue. It not because Max is in the other car.

Meanwhile, Mercedes stuck their future hope in back of the grid team to have a low stress environment to learn. McClaren have brought Lando along slowly (though he is proving to be a special talent).



He has had 2 wins, one last year and one this year. That not a long track record of winning success. He only has 2 podiums this year, in a car that should be fighting for podium every race.



My opinion of Perez is he is a good mid-field racer who know how to look after his tires and that allow him the ability to grab good results when the opportunity presents itself. He is not very good at extracting single lap pace - so his qualifying is subpar. He seem to struggle with wheel to wheel racing (his effort against Leclerc and Norris highlighted that).

He is better at being a under-the-radar type guy, he doesn't seem to handle the pressure to well. Maybe we will see a different Perez in the 2nd half of the season.

I hope he has a great second half of the season and beats Bottas every time. It will be interesting to see if Red Bull renews his contract for next year during the summer break to take some of the pressure off him, or will they do what they did with Albon and wait...just because they don't think Perez has any better options.

I think it is 60% they keep him. I think the Mercedes announcement will set off things (for the whole grid). But Red Bull can be unpredictable.

Sorry buddy, l think you are a Moron. This is that last words l care to share with you.

[Bagwan]

Sorry buddy, l think you are a Moron. This is that last words l care to share with you.

So , am I a Moron(capitalized for emphasis) , too ?

Just wondering(Moronically) .

By the way , any words you write on here will be shared with both of us , unless we were to block your posts .
I just thought I'd mention that .

I'm not about to block you .

[Zico]

So , am I a Moron(capitalized for emphasis) , too ?

Just wondering(Moronically) .

By the way , any words you write on here will be shared with both of us , unless we were to block your posts .
I just thought I'd mention that .

I'm not about to block you .

I guess most of us are here.. but I'm cool with that. Think it was Plato who once said 'One mans moron is anothers hero..' Jason Plato.

[Nitrodaze]

So , am I a Moron(capitalized for emphasis) , too ?

Just wondering(Moronically) .

By the way , any words you write on here will be shared with both of us , unless we were to block your posts .
I just thought I'd mention that .

I'm not about to block you .

Neither am l. I block no one regardless of how much l disagree with their point of view.

There is an old English saying "Birds of a feather flock together"

[Nitrodaze]

'One mans moron is anothers hero..' Jason Plato.

But still a moronic hero.

[Average Sim Racer]

I'm supportive of Horner when he protests against poor decisions. I feel he is entitled to protect his driver, and deserving of compensation for his team from Mercedes and Wolff due to damages because of negligence. There is a cost cap in F1 and it is unfair if the dominant teams keep making errors that directly cost their participants. FIA have been incorrect in their ruling against him.

[Average Sim Racer]

Your analysis of me? What is that? Was I upset with you? I don't know you

[Zico]

Your analysis of me? What is that? Was I upset with you? I don't know you

Of course you don't, he's just a spammer advertising via his sig.

[Average Sim Racer]

Is that so?

[Zico]

Is that so?

I could be wrong but yes I think so.
Admin/mods don't monitor this site 24/7 so you will probably have noticed a lot of nonsense spam posts recently and this reply probably just happened to be a tad better disguised.