2021 Race 8 - Styrian Grand Prix

[F1nKS]

This race will push the season past the 1/3 mark. The French GP showed that it could be interesting fight the rest of the way.

Norris continue to give consistent results, race after race.

Russell had an amazing performance of getting to 12th in the French GP. Can he do it again and put him in position to finally grab a point?

[F1nKS]

Rain is in the forecast for this weekend...

[Nitrodaze]

Rain is in the forecast for this weekend...

Possibly stormy weather. It has been weird everywhere. Crazy floods in Crimea in Russia, Beauvais in France and lots of other places. And two earthquakes at different places of the world all in this crazy month of June.

Rain would definitely throw some spanners into the works of most of the teams. This is another race where anybody might win it. It would be great if we have a completely new winner this weekend. Norris, Sainz, Ocon or Stroll would be great. It would be sensational if Tsunoda or Giovinazzi goes and win it. Even more sensational would be for one of the Williams to win it. I can dream. But it is looking for sure to be a real thriller.

[F1nKS]

FIA is changing rules on pit stops to slow them down.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/24/fia-to-force-f1-teams-to-slow-down-their-pit-stops/

[airshifter]

FIA is changing rules on pit stops to slow them down.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/24/fia-to-force-f1-teams-to-slow-down-their-pit-stops/

I just saw this a few minutes ago. I think it's kind of crazy really. They are building in reaction time for the human factor, and taking away from the fact that faster is faster, and even on slow stops crews have problems at times. If all they are really concerned with is the safety factor, make a fully automated sensor system that doesn't allow release without everything being done properly. And really the more I think of it, it's not usually the really fast teams that have wheels coming off anyway.... so what are they trying to accomplish again?


As for the weather, a wet race would be nice for a change. That might pull some of the midfield cars up into the mix too.

[airshifter]

Things aren't looking good for Mercedes.

Bottas will be given a three position grid drop due to his spin in the pits.

[F1nKS]

Things aren't looking good for Mercedes.

Bottas will be given a three position grid drop due to his spin in the pits.

video here. Pretty stupid. Well deserved penalty.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-bottas-handed-three-place-grid-drop-and-penalty-points-for.5t4zHtuj4Z8pRjt7PFC6nn.html

[Zico]

FIA is changing rules on pit stops to slow them down.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/24/fia-to-force-f1-teams-to-slow-down-their-pit-stops/

It has being suggested that Merc may be behind this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57615628

Is this a case of... If you can't pit stop as fast as your rivals, lobby the FIA slow theirs down?

First bendy wings lobbying, now this. Utter desperation Merc.. really not cool.

[Nitrodaze]

It has being suggested that Merc may be behind this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57615628

Is this a case of... If you can't pit stop as fast as your rivals, lobby the FIA slow theirs down?

First bendy wings lobbying, now this. Utter desperation Merc.. really not cool.

I doubt Mercedes is behind this. It has been long coming with the situation of tyres flying off cars we have seen in the past. That said, it is puzzling why they have introduced it now. There has not been any major incident from pitstops recently. Hence, l can see Horner's suspicions about its origin. One of Redbull's biggest weapon in its armoury; is its 2-seconds pitstop that very few teams can match. They easily gain a second or two at pitstops.

When Mercedes were scratching their heads as to why Hamilton did not undercut Verstappen at Paul Ricard, was a combination of faster pitstop and out lap times by Redbull and Verstappen.

When l read about this, l thought they [F1M] were over regulating again. But in reality, it was probably long overdue.

[airshifter]

I doubt Mercedes is behind this. It has been long coming with the situation of tyres flying off cars we have seen in the past. That said, it is puzzling why they have introduced it now. There has not been any major incident from pitstops recently. Hence, l can see Horner's suspicions about its origin. One of Redbull's biggest weapon in its armoury; is its 2-seconds pitstop that very few teams can match. They easily gain a second or two at pitstops.

When Mercedes were scratching their heads as to why Hamilton did not undercut Verstappen at Paul Ricard, was a combination of faster pitstop and out lap times by Redbull and Verstappen.

When l read about this, l thought they [F1M] were over regulating again. But in reality, it was probably long overdue.

Hamilton's stationary time in the pit was a tenth quicker than Max. Where he lost time was in the pit lane itself, not on the stopped time. He lost 6 tenths from pit entry to pit exit after accounting for the stop gain. So that's not on the team, unless the pit lane limiter was not properly adjusted.

Max simply put in an absolute blazing lap to make up the difference.




As for the new regs, though RB have more fastest stops than anyone else, I think it's three other teams that have had fastest pits per track this season. And really that fastest pits don't always involve the wheel coming off issues.... those seem random and it's been quite a while.

[Nitrodaze]

Hamilton's stationary time in the pit was a tenth quicker than Max. Where he lost time was in the pit lane itself, not on the stopped time. He lost 6 tenths from pit entry to pit exit after accounting for the stop gain. So that's not on the team, unless the pit lane limiter was not properly adjusted.

Max simply put in an absolute blazing lap to make up the difference.




As for the new regs, though RB have more fastest stops than anyone else, I think it's three other teams that have had fastest pits per track this season. And really that fastest pits don't always involve the wheel coming off issues.... those seem random and it's been quite a while.

What is your point ??? And where is the data to back your claim of standstill times?

[The Black Knight]

It has being suggested that Merc may be behind this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57615628

Is this a case of... If you can't pit stop as fast as your rivals, lobby the FIA slow theirs down?

First bendy wings lobbying, now this. Utter desperation Merc.. really not cool.

It's not like RBR aren't above a protest. Remember them protesting DAS last year at the first GP? They all do it, it's part of the sport.

[Tazio]

Pip, pip, pip! :ninja:

[F1nKS]

Final qualifying

1. Verstappen
2. Hamilton
3. Norris
4. Perez
5. Bottas (2nd to 5th w/penalty)
6. Gasly
7. Leclerc
8. Tsunoda (pending penalty)
9. Alonso
10. Stroll

[Nitrodaze]

Final qualifying

1. Verstappen
2. Hamilton
3. Norris
4. Perez
5. Bottas (2nd to 5th w/penalty)
6. Gasly
7. Leclerc
8. Tsunoda
9. Alonso
10. Stroll

That was a brilliant lap by Verstappen. 1:03:841 phew!

[Corky]

Max “the man” again.

[Nitrodaze]

Russell and Williams in the top ten, wow. I don't wanna jinx it but l hope he picks up a point or two tomorrow. Poor Tsunoda got a three-place grid penalty from a brilliant 8th, for blocking Bottas. F1 can be tough sometimes and rewarding at the same time.

[airshifter]

What is your point ??? And where is the data to back your claim of standstill times?

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/31675586/how-max-verstappen-outfoxed-mercedes-strategists-french-gp

My point is clear, that you keep stating quicker pit stops, regardless of it being the case or not. The pit in/pit out, inlaps and outlaps all have a hand as well.

Pit lane times are often found on several sites, and pit stopped time is usually shown on timing during the race.

Hamllton had a 2.2 stop, hardly a slug.

[Zico]

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/31675586/how-max-verstappen-outfoxed-mercedes-strategists-french-gp

My point is clear, that you keep stating quicker pit stops, regardless of it being the case or not. The pit in/pit out, inlaps and outlaps all have a hand as well.

Pit lane times are often found on several sites, and pit stopped time is usually shown on timing during the race.

Hamllton had a 2.2 stop, hardly a slug.

Fair points.. the Mercs do seem to have a low speed traction deficit compared to RBR.

It is suggested in my previous link that RBR may be using some sort of automated pit light system which if legal and true would remove human latency from their pit stop procedure, which could be worth around 2 tenths.

Done well, I'd expect such a system to also be safer than a human controlled one so maybe Merc ought to emulate rather than neutralise their rivals system via the FIA under a false safety precedent.

Makes you wonder what else they are grasping at behind the scenes.

[Nitrodaze]

Hamllton had a 2.2 stop, hardly a slug.

In this race, Redbull did it 2sec flat. A two-tenths gain

[Nitrodaze]

If you have any doubt, this race has shown quite clearly that the Redbull cars are considerably faster than the Mercedes. Roles reversed. Like Redbull in the last few seasons, Mercedes is finding they have just enough speed to stay with the Redbull BUT NOT ENOUGH TO REALLY FIGHT WITH THEM.

Verstappen won it like we have seen Hamilton do it so many time in the past. Fast, controlled and expertly executed. I think Mercedes are facing the prospect of losing this season's titles and they can not seem to be able to do anything about it. I think Redbull shall win the triple header and the writing would be clearly on the wall for Mercedes and Hamilton.

[Zico]

If you have any doubt, this race has shown quite clearly that the Redbull cars are considerably faster than the Mercedes. Roles reversed. Like Redbull in the last few seasons, Mercedes is finding they have just enough speed to stay with the Redbull BUT NOT ENOUGH TO REALLY FIGHT WITH THEM.

Verstappen won it like we have seen Hamilton do it so many time in the past. Fast, controlled and expertly executed. I think Mercedes are facing the prospect of losing this season's titles and they can not seem to be able to do anything about it. I think Redbull shall win the triple header and the writing would be clearly on the wall for Mercedes and Hamilton.


They could do something about it if they really wanted to.. but at the expense of developing next years car.
Listening to 5 live sports earlier, Palmer said that Wolf had stated that they would not be changing their resource percentage currently working on the 22 car.
Seems unlikely that they would effectively write off this season at this early stage so they probably have something fairly substantial in the development pipeline which will bring things back towards Merc.

I also wonder if we might see Russell in the Merc sooner than later..

[Nitrodaze]

They could do something about it if they really wanted to.. but at the expense of developing next years car.
Listening to 5 live sports earlier, Palmer said that Wolf had stated that they would not be changing their resource percentage currently working on the 22 car.
Seems unlikely that they would effectively write off this season at this early stage so they probably have something fairly substantial in the development pipeline which will bring things back towards Merc.

I also wonder if we might see Russell in the Merc sooner than later..

I would guess putting next season's car in jeopardy is out of the question. I was looking forward to a proper wheel to wheel battle between Hamilton and Verstappen, but the Redbull was too fast for such a battle to take place. It was a comfortable win after all for Verstappen.

[Zico]

I would guess putting next season's car in jeopardy is out of the question. I was looking forward to a proper wheel to wheel battle between Hamilton and Verstappen, but the Redbull was too fast for such a battle to take place. It was a comfortable win after all for Verstappen.


Todays RBR dominance was quite clear for the first time in so many years but we still have a load of races to go, this is just a snapshot of the current status quo which I still expect to see it ebb and flow over the remainder of the season. I wouldn't be writing Merc off just yet.

Wolff in his interview after the end of the race was quite clear that this season is definately not over yet... and I believe that too.


https://youtu.be/xxjQHhQbaOs

[Fortitude]

FORMULA 1 BWT GROSSER PREIS DER STEIERMARK 2021 - RACE RESULT

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/races/1092/styria/race-result.html

[Nitrodaze]

Todays RBR dominance was quite clear for the first time in so many years but we still have a load of races to go, this is just a snapshot of the current status quo which I still expect to see it ebb and flow over the remainder of the season. I wouldn't be writing Merc off just yet.

Wolff in his interview after the end of the race was quite clear that this season is definately not over yet... and I believe that too.


https://youtu.be/xxjQHhQbaOs

I think that is good to hear. We all want a good wheel to wheel fight for the championship. That is not what we have at the moment. The media is trying to talk it up but the reality is we have a switch at the top with the real racing happening in the midfield. But l think Mercedes is beginning to have a mountain to climb.

[F1nKS]

If you have any doubt, this race has shown quite clearly that the Redbull cars are considerably faster than the Mercedes. Roles reversed. Like Redbull in the last few seasons, Mercedes is finding they have just enough speed to stay with the Redbull BUT NOT ENOUGH TO REALLY FIGHT WITH THEM.

Verstappen won it like we have seen Hamilton do it so many time in the past. Fast, controlled and expertly executed. I think Mercedes are facing the prospect of losing this season's titles and they can not seem to be able to do anything about it. I think Redbull shall win the triple header and the writing would be clearly on the wall for Mercedes and Hamilton.

Long ways to go in the season. Never be to high in your highs or to low in the lows. There will be some circuits that support Red Bull and some that support Mercedes.

Had Mercedes not had the driver error (Hamilton and Bottas) in the two previous races or the strategy error in France things would feel much different. Red Bull is on a nice run, but after next week some Mercedes tracks coming up.

[Bagwan]

From the conspiracy corner comes the thought that this fits perfectly with the theory .
Max isn't too far away from Lewis still , and Valterie coming second keeps the Mercs close in the manufacturer standings .

Everyone , including all you guys and gals are thinking Red Bull has the edge now .
That sounds like the perfect set-up for an epic comeback for Lewis and the team .

Lewis smiled a number of times in the interviews , whilst talking about how fast the bulls were . That's not like him .


I know you cats don't want to hear it , but I think Merc is that confident that they can play with the others .

[Zico]

From the conspiracy corner comes the thought that this fits perfectly with the theory .
Max isn't too far away from Lewis still , and Valterie coming second keeps the Mercs close in the manufacturer standings .

Everyone , including all you guys and gals are thinking Red Bull has the edge now .
That sounds like the perfect set-up for an epic comeback for Lewis and the team .

Lewis smiled a number of times in the interviews , whilst talking about how fast the bulls were . That's not like him .


I know you cats don't want to hear it , but I think Merc is that confident that they can play with the others .



I always love a good conspiracy theory Baggie but if this one still stems from Lewis's 1 second faster lap and new lap record at Monaco.. while it was definitely a stunning lap, he had just pitted for fresh rubber unlike the rest of the front runners who stayed out iirc.
I'm not saying I think Merc wont catch them but just maybe its not the game you seem to think it is?

[F1nKS]

Winners

1. Verstappen - a Hamilton-esche finish, made it look easy.

2. Sainz - made a great push to finish 6 and ahead of Leclerc after starting 12th.

3. Ferrari double finish in the points cuts the Mclaren gap.

Losers

1. Ocon - Latifi is beating him in qualifying and he can't even sniff the points while his partner has come alive. All this after signing his contract extension.

2. Gasly - Primed with a good qualifying effort and ready to build on his reputation but disaster struck on Lap 1 - it wasn't his fault that Leclerc punctured him, but in the end those facts will be forgotten and it will just be seen as another DNF by a midfield team with a midfield driver.

3. Russell - he looked poised to capture his first points for Williams and then some reliability issue rear it head and then "poof" he was retired.

[Zico]

[B]

3. Russell - he looked poised to capture his first points for Williams and then some reliability issue rear it head and then "poof" he was retired.


C'mon dude, you cant go around calling people poofs! First of all this is a family forum and besides that, its also just an internet rumour started by Mazepin threatening to out him because of a joke video where he had Albon pictures on the wall of his driver room.


https://youtu.be/AEE9-Jodgq4

[Tazio]

C'mon dude, you cant go around calling people poofs! First of all this is a family forum and besides that, its also just an internet rumour started by Mazepin threatening to out him because of a joke video where he had Albon pictures on the wall of his driver room.


https://youtu.be/AEE9-Jodgq4

:sailor: :sailor: :sailor:

[Nitrodaze]

C'mon dude, you cant go around calling people poofs! First of all this is a family forum and besides that, its also just an internet rumour started by Mazepin threatening to out him because of a joke video where he had Albon pictures on the wall of his driver room.


https://youtu.be/AEE9-Jodgq4

ha ha ha :-)

[airshifter]

In this race, Redbull did it 2sec flat. A two-tenths gain

For Perez. That really has nothing to do with Max getting the undercut on Lewis, which was the original point you made.

If you are speaking of the Styrian GP, it's nobody's fault that Merc isn't the fastest in the pits, other than Merc. Several teams other than RB have had the fastest stops this season.



As for the automated light systems, I haven't seen details. In theory it should be good, but why would that take out the human anticipation factor any more than if humans were doing it? It seems to me they should just make penalties higher for improper stops. If done in the sense of future grid penalties, that would slow down the teams.











From the conspiracy corner comes the thought that this fits perfectly with the theory .
Max isn't too far away from Lewis still , and Valterie coming second keeps the Mercs close in the manufacturer standings .

Everyone , including all you guys and gals are thinking Red Bull has the edge now .
That sounds like the perfect set-up for an epic comeback for Lewis and the team .

Lewis smiled a number of times in the interviews , whilst talking about how fast the bulls were . That's not like him .


I know you cats don't want to hear it , but I think Merc is that confident that they can play with the others .


Don't count me in on the theory that Merc are in trouble with the car. Merc are in trouble with driver errors and strategy IMHO. Take those factors out and they would still be well in the hunt up front. The only edge I see RB having is that they have gotten into the head of Merc and Lewis some.

I just think that Merc were so dominant they forgot what pressure is, and it's been costing them. The same could easily happen to RB, such as the poor stop for Perez today... and Baku for that matter. There is still a long way to go in the season, and I'm not counting Merc out by any means.




As for this race... I'm so glad there is a midfield. Perez trying to chase down Bottas seemed a long shot, but worth it. But it was so late in the game it didn't add much excitement.

But the midfield was hard to keep track of, and strategies and races were moving along nicely.

I'm bummed for Gasly, as he has been doing well. And for Russell, I thought for sure he was going to loft that car up into the points.



It is interesting how that fastest lap point has been coming into play more and more. Well done by Merc and Lewis on that one, and I suspect we will see that point coming into the picture more and more as the season moves forward.

[Bagwan]

"Don't count me in on the theory that Merc are in trouble with the car. Merc are in trouble with driver errors and strategy IMHO. Take those factors out and they would still be well in the hunt up front."

These are catastrophic and uncharacteristic fails for the Merc team , but notice they are still well and truly in the hunt up front .

Apparently , the smiling Ham went down a "radical" road in the set-up of his car , and this is what they are pointing at as a reason for the lack of pace against Max .

They look rattled , but I think that's the aim .

[Nitrodaze]

For Perez. That really has nothing to do with Max getting the undercut on Lewis, which was the original point you made.

If you are speaking of the Styrian GP, it's nobody's fault that Merc isn't the fastest in the pits, other than Merc. Several teams other than RB have had the fastest stops this season.



As for the automated light systems, I haven't seen details. In theory it should be good, but why would that take out the human anticipation factor any more than if humans were doing it? It seems to me they should just make penalties higher for improper stops. If done in the sense of future grid penalties, that would slow down the teams.

Wow, you are surprising so blinked about what is going on. Firstly, l don't understand what your point is. Are you saying Redbull would be unaffected by the new pitstop rule? Which is what my original post was about. I don't get it.

[zako85]

What a snoozefest it was.

[Nitrodaze]

What a snoozefest it was.

yep

[airshifter]

These are catastrophic and uncharacteristic fails for the Merc team , but notice they are still well and truly in the hunt up front .

Apparently , the smiling Ham went down a "radical" road in the set-up of his car , and this is what they are pointing at as a reason for the lack of pace against Max .

They look rattled , but I think that's the aim .

I'm not big on the conspiracy theories Baggy. I think Merc has just blown it a few times, and Lewis did too. So they went from fighting to being on the back foot somewhat. I think they are honestly rattled, with all the finger pointing of wings, suggestions of a more powerful engine, etc. But being behind the curve is new to them, so they are trying where they can. I mean, looking at the RB wing from Austria, it's not exactly rocket science that the thing would be quick on the straights. It's even more comical when Merc did the same at Baku, and with the smaller wing they could easily keep the gap when RB was chasing with DRS open down that long straight.

Maybe bendy wings are magic when they don't bend, and that should be the approach of Merc. Protest the magic wings, just brilliant.


It will be interesting to see what the teams change for the upcoming race. I have a suspicion that Merc might use a smaller magic rear wing.




Wow, you are surprising so blinked about what is going on. Firstly, l don't understand what your point is. Are you saying Redbull would be unaffected by the new pitstop rule? Which is what my original post was about. I don't get it.

Not at all blinked.

You've stated in a previous thread that the undercut was partly due to a faster pit stop.




When Mercedes were scratching their heads as to why Hamilton did not undercut Verstappen at Paul Ricard, was a combination of faster pitstop and out lap times by Redbull and Verstappen.



I stated and showed evidence that the pit stop was slower, and the deficit was elsewhere. My point it that reality is reality, and that the pit stop wasn't the reason the undercut worked.

As for the Styrian race, Max was so far ahead that the .2 faster change didn't have anything to do with maintaining the lead. Just like every other team, it is what it is. If you cherry pick to state when Merc get a bad pit stop as a race changing cause, why not even mention that the only thing that put Perez in 3rd was a stop nearing 5 seconds?


As for the pit rules, much like you I don't really see the timing of it with so few wheel problems lately. But my major point was that with sensors to confirm wheel on and change the light, if the human anticipates the light they really haven't policed anything. Are they going to time pauses for each human?

[Bagwan]

"I'm not big on the conspiracy theories Baggy. I think Merc has just blown it a few times, and Lewis did too. So they went from fighting to being on the back foot somewhat. I think they are honestly rattled, with all the finger pointing of wings, suggestions of a more powerful engine, etc. But being behind the curve is new to them, so they are trying where they can. I mean, looking at the RB wing from Austria, it's not exactly rocket science that the thing would be quick on the straights. It's even more comical when Merc did the same at Baku, and with the smaller wing they could easily keep the gap when RB was chasing with DRS open down that long straight."

That's just it , though .
They chose to be slower on the straights in Austria , didn't they ?

[airshifter]

I think it's mostly a matter of setups and such Bagwan. The Honda engines have been noted to be strong at altitude, and with the smaller rear wing and diffuser goodies they had some high top end speeds. Merc is running that bigger wing, and it might be a tire thing with them needing to work the tires more to get the heat in them. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if they change some tactics.

I hadn't previously heard the comments about Lewis choosing a more radical setup, but that might be a result of playing catch up and rolling the dice hoping to get to the front.


But I think Merc are still in the game. Had Lewis just finished Baku in second place he would be tied with Max for WDC points. Considering the mess both Mercs had in Monaco, it was just a lost opportunity when Max had the tire take him out. And to me Baku was a good example of the speeds between the two cars as well. Merc went for less downforce, and RB for more. Though it proved that more was better in sheer lap time, RB couldn't even come close on the straights. They had to make the time in the pits and laps away from the traffic.

[Nitrodaze]

I think it's mostly a matter of setups and such Bagwan. The Honda engines have been noted to be strong at altitude, and with the smaller rear wing and diffuser goodies they had some high top end speeds. Merc is running that bigger wing, and it might be a tire thing with them needing to work the tires more to get the heat in them. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if they change some tactics.

I hadn't previously heard the comments about Lewis choosing a more radical setup, but that might be a result of playing catch up and rolling the dice hoping to get to the front.


But I think Merc are still in the game. Had Lewis just finished Baku in second place he would be tied with Max for WDC points. Considering the mess both Mercs had in Monaco, it was just a lost opportunity when Max had the tire take him out. And to me Baku was a good example of the speeds between the two cars as well. Merc went for less downforce, and RB for more. Though it proved that more was better in sheer lap time, RB couldn't even come close on the straights. They had to make the time in the pits and laps away from the traffic.

Come on mate, it is a little more than just setup. Baku showed in Verstappen's hands that the Redbull was considerably faster over a full lap. They may be gaining loads of speed through the twisties, but the net result was over two-tenths faster over a full lap. It definitely is not "nip and tuck" as Horner puts it.

Everyone keeps going on that Mercedes would be closer if Hamilton did not have the magic button error. True, but he would not be any closer if Verstappen did not have the tyre blow out otherwise. It is plain and simple, Mercedes is slower than Redbull by up to three-tenths per lap on average. Which essentially splits the grid into three tiers; Redbull in tier one on their own, Mercedes in tier two, fast, but not fast enough to win if Redbull is on their game, and tier three, the midfield and the rest.

Mercedes in current trim is not in the game at all. They have to bring something significant to even be remotely close to being in the game. Recovering three-tenths in-season is not easy. Especially while developing next years car in tandem.

The F1M have royally f*cked Mercedes this season. I doubt you would find any other sport where the managing organisation specifically targets one of its participants in a hostile manner such as this. And l think all sports media are a disgrace letting this happen without a pip about it. The data is there and glaringly explicit.

That said, this is not Redbull's concern. They have a championship to win regardless. And they would be remiss to not win it with their awesome advantage. As a matter of fact, if Mercedes manages to win it with the hampered car they have this season, Horner should resign.

[Bagwan]

This year , there is some doubt that Merc will win .
Some think they are "not in the game at all" .

Having made so many uncharacteristic mistakes this season , it sure will be something if they manage to pull off the titles again , won't it ?

[airshifter]

Come on mate, it is a little more than just setup. Baku showed in Verstappen's hands that the Redbull was considerably faster over a full lap. They may be gaining loads of speed through the twisties, but the net result was over two-tenths faster over a full lap. It definitely is not "nip and tuck" as Horner puts it.

Everyone keeps going on that Mercedes would be closer if Hamilton did not have the magic button error. True, but he would not be any closer if Verstappen did not have the tyre blow out otherwise. It is plain and simple, Mercedes is slower than Redbull by up to three-tenths per lap on average. Which essentially splits the grid into three tiers; Redbull in tier one on their own, Mercedes in tier two, fast, but not fast enough to win if Redbull is on their game, and tier three, the midfield and the rest.

Mercedes in current trim is not in the game at all. They have to bring something significant to even be remotely close to being in the game. Recovering three-tenths in-season is not easy. Especially while developing next years car in tandem.

The F1M have royally f*cked Mercedes this season. I doubt you would find any other sport where the managing organisation specifically targets one of its participants in a hostile manner such as this. And l think all sports media are a disgrace letting this happen without a pip about it. The data is there and glaringly explicit.

That said, this is not Redbull's concern. They have a championship to win regardless. And they would be remiss to not win it with their awesome advantage. As a matter of fact, if Mercedes manages to win it with the hampered car they have this season, Horner should resign.

I sure hope Merc and Lewis are more optimistic than you are.

It sounds to me like you've thrown in the towel, and the whole thing must be a conspiracy theory to screw Merc. With no surprise, nobody has made the same claim when we had all kinds of restrictions on development that put Merc well ahead of the pack, for multiple seasons. So to me it's no wonder that the media aren't claiming the sky is falling. Because it's not.