F1 Champion Without Race Victory? [Archive]

greencroft

14th May 2007, 11:02

Valve Bounce

14th May 2007, 11:06

Has the title ever been won by someone who does not win a single race?

An unlikely secnario I know but if the other Big 3 continue to mop up the wins and Lewis carries on packing in the podium finishes, then it is a possibility is it?

There have been occasions where the WDC winner has only won 1 race.

I do know that Stirling Moss won more than 1 race in seasons that he didn't win the championship. But I think there are few who would begrudge him the accolade of being one of the finest racing drivers in history.

ShiftingGears

14th May 2007, 11:12

Nahh, Hawthorn only won one race in '58 and Keke Rosberg in '82 and were both world champions. Raikkonen came close in 03 as well with only one win. It is a possibility, but I very much doubt it.

raphael123

14th May 2007, 11:26

If it's going to happen, its more likely to happen now than at any other time, due to the new point system rewarding consistency rather than being the best.

ojciec dyrektor

14th May 2007, 11:26

with current point system its possible more then before :D

jens

14th May 2007, 12:07

I guess that sooner or later Lewis will also score his race wins.

Dave B

14th May 2007, 12:15

Equally, they'll almost certainly be a race soon where Lewis screws up.

Valve Bounce

14th May 2007, 12:56

With the large number of races these days, I find it difficult to believe that a driver capable of scoring enough oints to win the championship in around 20 or so races isn't lucky enough to win a single race.

Periapt

14th May 2007, 13:30

If it's going to happen, its more likely to happen now than at any other time, due to the new point system rewarding consistency rather than being the best.

"The Best" is a slippery concept and, in this case, it is highly dependent upon the relative value of victories vs. consistent podium finishes.

Assume that each race had a different winner and one driver was second in all 17 races. He would have beaten each of those winners 16 times while losing to them only once. He would clearly have amassed the greatest point total and by that measure would be the best driver.

Conversely, assume that only victories counted. It would then be possible for a driver to win 2 races and DNF 15 by crashing while another won a single race and finished on the podium in all 17 races. The two-race-winner would, by the scoring criteria, be the better.

And what of pole positions and fastest laps? Should they count towards the WDC? It seems reasonable to me that they should, but not enough to allow the second place finisher to outscore the victor of the race.

I agree that the current point system undervalues wins and should be changed. The trick is to find a scoring system that most people will accept as "fair".

Periapt

Daika

14th May 2007, 13:47

Zeus

14th May 2007, 13:55

little bit offtopic: Is Maurice Hamilton father of Lewis or family related? because i notice that he gives commentary for the BBC. Little bit odd if he is, providing commentary on his own son, not very objective.

If you had been watching tha last few races on the BBC you would know that Lewis's dad is called Anthony.

Also Maurice is not related and last time I met him he was white!

Dave B

14th May 2007, 13:57

White people can have black relatives, you know! But not in this case.

AndyL

14th May 2007, 14:05

There are a couple of examples of winless champions in top-level motorcycle racing: Emilio Alzamora in the 1999 125cc Grand Prix championship, and Ben Bostrom in the 1998 AMA Superbike championship. But of course the motorcycle racing points system makes it even easier for this to happen than the current F1 system.
Anyone have any suggestions for the highest level of car racing where this has happened, given it's never happened in F1?

Daika - I don't think Maurice Hamilton and Lewis Hamilton are related in any way.

xyz123

14th May 2007, 14:11

I believe Tom Sneva won the 1978 Indycar championship without winning a race.

The only other winless champion I can think of is Oriol Servia in the 1999 Indy Lights series.

When Keke Rosberg won the title his only win was in the Swiss GP. He took the win by passing Alain Prost in the closing stages. If Rosberg had not have been able to pass Prost and finished second he would still have won the title in 1982 and would therefore have been a winless champion.

CarlMetro

14th May 2007, 15:22

Daika

14th May 2007, 15:30

If you had been watching tha last few races on the BBC you would know that Lewis's dad is called Anthony.

Also Maurice is not related and last time I met him he was white!

BBC don't have the broadcasting rights (so can't watch) only radio. I notice his last name because it was on the BBC site where they provide lapwatch, with a Maurice Hamilton. I thought i was odd now it turns out it is coincidence.

raphael123

14th May 2007, 15:31

It's more than possible for Lewis to do it this year, especially if the other three keep sharing the wins and have the odd DNF in between the wins. If it did happen then it would show just how farcical the current points system really is :\

:up:

Unfortunately I think we have a certain 7 x WC to blame in some sense. A team dominating the championship is acceptable. If Ferrari were miles ahead this year, we'd still have a championship battle with their two drivers. At Ferrari, Schumacher was No1, and then they'd just employ a No2 driver, meaning there was no title race.

The new point system really does distort the history of Points scored.

truefan72

14th May 2007, 15:34

the probability is exremely high thaLH will win a race this year
Monte Carlo is his favorite track

aryan

14th May 2007, 19:20

the probability is exremely high thaLH will win a race this year
Monte Carlo is his favorite track

He has never 'not won' int Monaco. Whatever series he has raced in.

N. Jones

14th May 2007, 20:49

Has the title ever been won by someone who does not win a single race?

An unlikely secnario I know but if the other Big 3 continue to mop up the wins and Lewis carries on packing in the podium finishes, then it is a possibility is it?

To answer your question - No, every WDC has won at least one race (the only two to do so as someone mentioned were Mike Hawthorne in 1958 & Keke Rosberg in 1982).

Ian McC

14th May 2007, 20:58

I would think he would be hard pressed to win the WDC without a win but it is not impossible.

ioan

14th May 2007, 21:05

Unfortunately I think we have a certain 7 x WC to blame in some sense.

What does a 7 x WC look like? ;)

futuretiger9

14th May 2007, 22:29

If it's going to happen, its more likely to happen now than at any other time, due to the new point system rewarding consistency rather than being the best.

It is possible for Lewis to continue racking up second and third places, and lead the title race. We know that Massa and Raikkonen can have the odd rush of blood and make mistakes. If Heidfeld can get up amongst the Ferraris and McLarens again, that would count in Hamilton's favour.

I suspect that if Hamilton does win the title without a victory, there may be some calls for the points system to be revised again.

Personally, I cannot see him going through the entire season without a win. In fact, I've got high hopes for him at Monaco....

Valve Bounce

15th May 2007, 01:10

little bit offtopic: Is Maurice Hamilton father of Lewis or family related? because i notice that he gives commentary for the BBC. Little bit odd if he is, providing commentary on his own son, not very objective.

Don't see why, as long as he can speak English. He doesn't really have to be totally objective but rather provide an insight to Lewis's performance, lifestyle and so on to make the presentation more interesting.

Put it this way, if Martin had a son and raced, I would not exclude Martin from commentating on that race.

millencolin

15th May 2007, 01:40

i may be completely and utterly wrong on this but didnt gil deferren win one of his Champcar titles without actually winning a race that year?

ClarkFan

15th May 2007, 03:51

It's more than possible for Lewis to do it this year, especially if the other three keep sharing the wins and have the odd DNF in between the wins. If it did happen then it would show just how farcical the current points system really is :\

And if it does happen, I hope it shames the FIA enough to restore a real premium to winning races in the scoring system. Isn't winning races what racing drivers are supposed to do? :confused:

Max and Bernie just got petrified that people would stop watching races if Schumacher clinched the title early, so they monkeyed with the scoring to pretend that all the children were above average - why else start giving points for 7th and 8th? Of course, they promptly got a season when a 1-time winner (KR) nearly beat a 6-time winner (MS).

And don't talk to me about the scoring system in the North American series. With the random ways they hand out points, it's just like pro rasslin' on wheels (Or was that roller derby?). :\

ClarkFan

Valve Bounce

15th May 2007, 04:02

And if it does happen, I hope it shames the FIA enough to restore a real premium to winning races in the scoring system. Isn't winning races what racing drivers are supposed to do? :confused:

Max and Bernie just got petrified that people would stop watching races if Schumacher clinched the title early, so they monkeyed with the scoring to pretend that all the children were above average - why else start giving points for 7th and 8th? Of course, they promptly got a season when a 1-time winner (KR) nearly beat a 6-time winner (MS).

And don't talk to me about the scoring system in the North American series. With the random ways they hand out points, it's just like pro rasslin' on wheels (Or was that roller derby?). :\

ClarkFan

Hey Buddy,

I don't mind them giving points down to eighth place, and Tako's performance last sunday is my reason really. Cars which are in shoestring teams which perform heroicly getting up to eighth plce is some sorta miracle because they have to beat some pretty strong factory teams to do so.

However, I would like the gap between 1st and 2nd places be widened to 4 points so that a winner will get 12 points, while second place gets only 8. This will give greater emphasis to the driver who drives to win.

Hoo

leopard

15th May 2007, 04:15

That is the weakness of current point system, Bernie should have implied one that give more points difference for the race winner, right now :D

pino

15th May 2007, 07:16

That is the weakness of current point system, Bernie should have implied one that give more points difference for the race winner, right now :D

:up:

Cozzie

15th May 2007, 08:27

Chances are we won't be talking about this after Monaco ;) . A rookie champion does seem a possibility though.

ClarkFan

15th May 2007, 16:21

Hey Buddy,

I don't mind them giving points down to eighth place, and Tako's performance last sunday is my reason really. Cars which are in shoestring teams which perform heroicly getting up to eighth plce is some sorta miracle because they have to beat some pretty strong factory teams to do so.

However, I would like the gap between 1st and 2nd places be widened to 4 points so that a winner will get 12 points, while second place gets only 8. This will give greater emphasis to the driver who drives to win.

Hoo

I'd settle for your proposal, Valve. Something more for winners is more important in this issue than how far down the field you allow points.

My beef with points for 7th and 8th may just be a sign that I am getting old(er) and (more) crotchety. :s For about the first 40 years I followed F1, they only gave out points through 6th, and that was enough to let some real longshots earn World Championship points, inlcuding Parnelli, Zakspeed, Dallara, Lola, and Minardi.

But I sympathize with the plight of shoestring teams. There should be meaningful financial incentives for positions all the way through 10th. Give them the money and perks they need to compete better, even if they don't get points.

ClarkFan