So Lewis is not 100% for Abu Dhabi....my irritation deepens...

[Lee Rex]

At Sahkir, George Russel proved that it's mostly the car, taking nothing away from Lewis or Mercedes. The team is a juggernaut and will be a beast for the foreseeable future. But gentlemen they are not! Mercedes ruined Russel's race at Sakhir and should have been gracious enough to give him another chance at Abu Dhabi. Under other circumstances Lewis could have been admired for jumping back in the car, gutting his way throught like a warrior. But in this case I see nothing but selfishness, greed and a lack of humility. Mercedes owes George a public apology!!! Lewis should have stayed home and polished his 2020 trophy! I'm sure that Mercedes would be happy to paint it black for him.

[Zico]

Lewis is contracted to drive for Merc, once he passed his covid test Merc had no say in the matter.... and why would Lewis step aside to potentially have his stock value reduced if Russell excelled again?
Call that selfish if you like but this isnt normal every day life. No one in their right mind would do that

[Nitrodaze]

Sorry buddy, there was no selfishness going on here. it is purely contractual obligations that had to be fullfilled once Hamilton had negative results to the requisite COVID tests. Besides the dynamics in the teams may have been affected by a second Russell drive with Bottas's 2nd place in the driver's championship on the balance.

Though, l initially thought another Mercedes drive for Russell would be great for Abu Dhabi. It also raise the question of whether the teams was still supporting Bottas for 2nd in the driver's championship. A second Russel drive would have suggested that the teams was through with Bottas. Which l think would have been very unhealthy to team harmony at this race.

[Lee Rex]

Thanks Zico and Nitro...I appreciate your replies. I'm well aware of the complexity of F1 contracts but I think that plays no role here. I continue to think that motives, not contracts, are at the root of this. But I am curious as to why Lewis' stock would drop if he had given up his seat for just one more race. With 7 world championships and 95 race wins, just why would he be that insecure?

Lewis arrived in Abu Dhabi unfit to drive the car. Even though he tested negative he certainly exhibited symptoms. Before the race he said he was "not 100%". I would be happy to defend his actions had he been fighting for points to win the championship. However, his title was secured weeks ago and Mercedes had nailed down the constructors title, so it seems reasonable to think that something less-than-admirable might be at work. I cannot actually be certain, nor can anyone else, of exactly what the motives may have been, but for now both Lewis and Mecedes have lost some of my respect!

Today it was announced that the pit straight at Silverstone would be named after Lewis, and I'm sure that one day he will knighted by the queen. I send Lewis my best wishes. He's a great champion. But he is flawed, just like the rest of us.

Lee

[Nitrodaze]

Thanks Zico and Nitro...I appreciate your replies. I'm well aware of the complexity of F1 contracts but I think that plays no role here. I continue to think that motives, not contracts, are at the root of this. But I am curious as to why Lewis' stock would drop if he had given up his seat for just one more race. With 7 world championships and 95 race wins, just why would he be that insecure?

Lewis arrived in Abu Dhabi unfit to drive the car. Even though he tested negative he certainly exhibited symptoms. Before the race he said he was "not 100%". I would be happy to defend his actions had he been fighting for points to win the championship. However, his title was secured weeks ago and Mercedes had nailed down the constructors title, so it seems reasonable to think that something less-than-admirable might be at work. I cannot actually be certain, nor can anyone else, of exactly what the motives may have been, but for now both Lewis and Mecedes have lost some of my respect!

Today it was announced that the pit straight at Silverstone would be named after Lewis, and I'm sure that one day he will knighted by the queen. I send Lewis my best wishes. He's a great champion. But he is flawed, just like the rest of us.

Lee

I see your point of view. I was also hoping that Russell would get another opportunity. But l find your reasoning to be unfounded. If the team asked Hamilton to give up his seat for Russell at Abu Dhabi and he refused. I would probably take your view. If they didn't, then the contractual consequences of missing two consecutive race weekends may play a part in why things transpired as it did. Especially, after Hamilton clearly stated in pre-race interviews that he was not 100% fit to race. He probably may have been happier curling up in bed rather than doing that race. As it turned out, Abu Dhabi would not have been a good race for Russell in the Mercedes which was low on pace anyway.

[Zico]

Thanks Zico and Nitro...I appreciate your replies. I'm well aware of the complexity of F1 contracts but I think that plays no role here. I continue to think that motives, not contracts, are at the root of this. But I am curious as to why Lewis' stock would drop if he had given up his seat for just one more race. With 7 world championships and 95 race wins, just why would he be that insecure?

Lewis arrived in Abu Dhabi unfit to drive the car. Even though he tested negative he certainly exhibited symptoms. Before the race he said he was "not 100%". I would be happy to defend his actions had he been fighting for points to win the championship. However, his title was secured weeks ago and Mercedes had nailed down the constructors title, so it seems reasonable to think that something less-than-admirable might be at work. I cannot actually be certain, nor can anyone else, of exactly what the motives may have been, but for now both Lewis and Mecedes have lost some of my respect!

Today it was announced that the pit straight at Silverstone would be named after Lewis, and I'm sure that one day he will knighted by the queen. I send Lewis my best wishes. He's a great champion. But he is flawed, just like the rest of us.

Lee



There is the possibility that one of the reasons Merc may have chosen to put Russell in the car expecting him to do well (which he obviously did) it would put them more in a position of strength for negotiating his (still unsigned) contract for the 21 season. Maybe.. maybe not.. but as a CEO/businessman that is something I'd be looking to do, no matter how deep the companys pockets were.
If Lewis were to accept a wage reduction from Merc would that not lower his stock value?
Also.. a lot of F1 fans have been saying that the car should be attributed to the vast majority of Lewis's success.. You only have to look at the BBC HYS forums, which is full of he detractors, all saying that Russell performing so well is proof that quite a few current F1 drivers (better/faster than Valteri) would be enjoying the same WDC success if they had the seat instead of Lewis. He wont like that.. and if I'm 100% honest, knowing that is at least partially true, I wouldnt like that either.

[Nitrodaze]

There is the possibility that one of the reasons Merc may have chosen to put Russell in the car expecting him to do well (which he obviously did) it would put them more in a position of strength for negotiating his (still unsigned) contract for the 21 season. Maybe.. maybe not.. but as a CEO/businessman that is something I'd be looking to do, no matter how deep the companys pockets were.
If Lewis were to accept a wage reduction from Merc would that not lower his stock value?
Also.. a lot of F1 fans have been saying that the car should be attributed to the vast majority of Lewis's success.. You only have to look at the BBC HYS forums, which is full of he detractors, all saying that Russell performing so well is proof that quite a few current F1 drivers (better/faster than Valteri) would be enjoying the same WDC success if they had the seat instead of Lewis. He wont like that.. and if I'm 100% honest, knowing that is at least partially true, I wouldnt like that either.

Mind you lots of people said exactly the same thing of Schumacher while he was winning. Not everyone can appreciate.

On the contract negotiation side, l don't see much leverage there. There would probably be a Leclerc type case if Russell had performed as he did against Hamilton. But l see there might be some elements to use to unbalance Hamilton into a manageable pay package. There is the drivers pay cap to consider as well. As that would drastically cut Hamliton's wages. One reason why l don't expect Hamilton to be on the grid for 2022 onwards. I think Mercedes senses that and they are preparing Russell to jump into one of the seats in 2022 when his Williams contract expires. With Ocon doing so well at Renault, there is a good chance that, he may partner Russell in 2022 or 2023.

I also don't expect Toto Woolf in the paddock from 2022 onwards. Chances are that it would be new faces at Mercedes for the new era of GP1 racing.

New driver line up, new management and reduced workforce in line with the budget cut. It would certainly not be the same constitution of talents that saw Mercedes win the last seven constructors and drivers titles. As the budget cut would mean most of them may be repurposed elsewhere in another formular. It may be a different team based on elements of the existing team.

[Lee Rex]

My reasoning is based only on what I have seen and heard. I'm pretty sure that I have not claimed any first hand knowledge. All I know is that there are bits and pieces in front of me and I want to assemble them into a larger picture just like a jigsaw puzzle.

Here are a few things dancing around in my mostly empty skull:
Did Lewis underperform or did the car let him down? We can't know if Russel would have won the race had Mercedes not screwed it up for him.
Earlier in the season Perez was forced out of 2 races so why the rush to get Lewis back in the car for the very last race even though they had already won everything possible.
I doubt that Lewis' contract would have any penalties regarding illness. But F1 must certainly have restrictions regarding drivers, or anyone, that bring their symptoms to the track. Why was Lewis exempt?

If this were a movie (and in my head it IS a movie) then I think it might go like this:

A demanding driver has reached the end of his contract and is negotiating to renew it for next year and beyond. Suddenly he is stricken by the latest virus and is forced to sit out a race or two. But the team must move on to the next race and are forced to replace the driver until he is well enough to return and is free of symptoms. Watching from his sickbed, the driver is horrified to see that the replacement is not only winning but putting distance on the rest of the field.
This is terrible! His insecurity is getting the best of him. He wonders, "What if that guy is better than me?". "And what about my contract? Am I in a worse position now? I wish this replacement guy was having a terrible day so people could see for themselves just how valuable I am? I've got to get back in the car next week".

He makes a phone call. "Hello, Toto! I'm coming back next weekend!". "We think you need to stay home and rest", they say. "After all we have nothing to gain", . "Why is this so hard?", says the driver to himself. "Why it was just last year I was able to force the team to let me air my political views".

The driver shows up with symptoms and does poorly. Now what?

There are 3 stories here:
Why was Lewis allowed on the grid in the first place. Having a negative test does not mean that you can't pass along your symptoms. How did he get away with that?

I think Lewis demanded to come back and Mercedes caved in. My respect for Mercedes has taken a big hit for their lack of courage in this case and willingness to give Lewis a platform for his political views. No other driver would be permitted to exhibit that sort of behavior.

Both Lewis and Mercedes should be ashamed of their treatment of George Russel. He drove a magnificent race and should have been rewarded after the team ruined it for him. Instead, they threw him under the bus. Just pathetic!

I should also mention that Williams now has an opportunity to do a great thing for George by releasing him from his contract in such a way as to save his seat but be given the chance to shop his skills to a better team. It would be a great gesture.

[Firstgear]

First of all, Welcome to the forum Lee. I'm really enjoying reading your well-thought-out posts and insight. While I can believe that some of the things you are suggesting could be happening, I think the main thing was that Lewis was bored sitting at home (or where ever he was) and wanted to get back into the car. Of course he wouldn't be happy with someone else doing well in his car, so that only makes his feelings more urgent. Although George did great, Mercedes still has to keep their #1 star happy. George is shining right now, but it's still too early to know if he will ever be at Lewis's level consistently. Lewis has shown he can handle the pressure and deliver day in and day out, with George those kinds of things are still unknown.
The one point I'd have to disagree with you on is when you say Mercedes threw George under the bus. They gave him a great opportunity (at the expense of their own reserve driver) but I doubt it came with guarantees of the next weeks drive if he exceeded expectations. I think that opportunity was a good will offering towards the future. Right now, having Lewis behind is pretty much money in the bank. Why would Mercedes take the chance of cracking him mentally, or bruising his ego by telling him to sit out if he's cleared to go and wants to race?

[Nitrodaze]

My reasoning is based only on what I have seen and heard. I'm pretty sure that I have not claimed any first hand knowledge. All I know is that there are bits and pieces in front of me and I want to assemble them into a larger picture just like a jigsaw puzzle.

Here are a few things dancing around in my mostly empty skull:
Did Lewis underperform or did the car let him down? We can't know if Russel would have won the race had Mercedes not screwed it up for him.
Earlier in the season Perez was forced out of 2 races so why the rush to get Lewis back in the car for the very last race even though they had already won everything possible.
I doubt that Lewis' contract would have any penalties regarding illness. But F1 must certainly have restrictions regarding drivers, or anyone, that bring their symptoms to the track. Why was Lewis exempt?

If this were a movie (and in my head it IS a movie) then I think it might go like this:

A demanding driver has reached the end of his contract and is negotiating to renew it for next year and beyond. Suddenly he is stricken by the latest virus and is forced to sit out a race or two. But the team must move on to the next race and are forced to replace the driver until he is well enough to return and is free of symptoms. Watching from his sickbed, the driver is horrified to see that the replacement is not only winning but putting distance on the rest of the field.
This is terrible! His insecurity is getting the best of him. He wonders, "What if that guy is better than me?". "And what about my contract? Am I in a worse position now? I wish this replacement guy was having a terrible day so people could see for themselves just how valuable I am? I've got to get back in the car next week".

He makes a phone call. "Hello, Toto! I'm coming back next weekend!". "We think you need to stay home and rest", they say. "After all we have nothing to gain", . "Why is this so hard?", says the driver to himself. "Why it was just last year I was able to force the team to let me air my political views".

The driver shows up with symptoms and does poorly. Now what?

There are 3 stories here:
Why was Lewis allowed on the grid in the first place. Having a negative test does not mean that you can't pass along your symptoms. How did he get away with that?

I think Lewis demanded to come back and Mercedes caved in. My respect for Mercedes has taken a big hit for their lack of courage in this case and willingness to give Lewis a platform for his political views. No other driver would be permitted to exhibit that sort of behavior.

Both Lewis and Mercedes should be ashamed of their treatment of George Russel. He drove a magnificent race and should have been rewarded after the team ruined it for him. Instead, they threw him under the bus. Just pathetic!

I should also mention that Williams now has an opportunity to do a great thing for George by releasing him from his contract in such a way as to save his seat but be given the chance to shop his skills to a better team. It would be a great gesture.

Sorry buddy. Your post read like Hamilton bashing to me. You carry on as if an entitlement has not been met. A negative test means whoever it is, is clear to go racing. No special privileges was given to Hamilton. Once he has the all clear, his contract demands that he provide his services in the car. Though the team have the option to ask him to step aside for someone else to drive the car if they have reservations of his fitness to race.

Using phrases like a demanding driver is also very disrespectfull to Hamilton. I am not sure if that is your intention but it comes across negatively. It is what it is. Russell; is more a bother for Bottas than to Hamilton. To make out that Hamilton is bothered that REussell might be better than him is ridiculous to say the least.

That said, l must admit that l would like to see Russell in the next car so that we can see how he measures to the benchmark of all driver, which is Hamilton.

It is interesting how you inherently suggest that Bottas is crap. That the two Mercedes were not able to take on the Redbull seem good reason for you to question the capability of both the drivers in the Mercedes. Somehow, in yuour mind you already see that Russell might be able to win the Abu Dhabi race in that circumstances. This is how unhealthy expectations are mounted on young up and coming shoulders that burn them out too early. Russell is great and would do great things given the chance, equipment and some luck. But don't disrespect those that has proved themselves above any criteria in the process of your appreciation of the up and coming.

[Nitrodaze]

My reasoning is based only on what I have seen and heard. I'm pretty sure that I have not claimed any first hand knowledge. All I know is that there are bits and pieces in front of me and I want to assemble them into a larger picture just like a jigsaw puzzle.

Here are a few things dancing around in my mostly empty skull:
Did Lewis underperform or did the car let him down? We can't know if Russel would have won the race had Mercedes not screwed it up for him.
Earlier in the season Perez was forced out of 2 races so why the rush to get Lewis back in the car for the very last race even though they had already won everything possible.
I doubt that Lewis' contract would have any penalties regarding illness. But F1 must certainly have restrictions regarding drivers, or anyone, that bring their symptoms to the track. Why was Lewis exempt?

If this were a movie (and in my head it IS a movie) then I think it might go like this:

A demanding driver has reached the end of his contract and is negotiating to renew it for next year and beyond. Suddenly he is stricken by the latest virus and is forced to sit out a race or two. But the team must move on to the next race and are forced to replace the driver until he is well enough to return and is free of symptoms. Watching from his sickbed, the driver is horrified to see that the replacement is not only winning but putting distance on the rest of the field.
This is terrible! His insecurity is getting the best of him. He wonders, "What if that guy is better than me?". "And what about my contract? Am I in a worse position now? I wish this replacement guy was having a terrible day so people could see for themselves just how valuable I am? I've got to get back in the car next week".

He makes a phone call. "Hello, Toto! I'm coming back next weekend!". "We think you need to stay home and rest", they say. "After all we have nothing to gain", . "Why is this so hard?", says the driver to himself. "Why it was just last year I was able to force the team to let me air my political views".

The driver shows up with symptoms and does poorly. Now what?

There are 3 stories here:
Why was Lewis allowed on the grid in the first place. Having a negative test does not mean that you can't pass along your symptoms. How did he get away with that?

I think Lewis demanded to come back and Mercedes caved in. My respect for Mercedes has taken a big hit for their lack of courage in this case and willingness to give Lewis a platform for his political views. No other driver would be permitted to exhibit that sort of behavior.

Both Lewis and Mercedes should be ashamed of their treatment of George Russel. He drove a magnificent race and should have been rewarded after the team ruined it for him. Instead, they threw him under the bus. Just pathetic!

I should also mention that Williams now has an opportunity to do a great thing for George by releasing him from his contract in such a way as to save his seat but be given the chance to shop his skills to a better team. It would be a great gesture.

Sorry buddy. Your post read like Hamilton bashing to me. You carry on as if an entitlement has not been met. A negative test means whoever it is, is cleared to go racing. No special privileges was given to Hamilton. Once he had the all clear, his contract demands that he provide his services in the car. Though the team have the option to ask him to step aside for someone else to drive the car if they have reservations of his fitness to race.

Using phrases like "a demanding driver" is also very disrespectfull to Hamilton. I am not sure if that is your intention but it comes across negatively. It is what it is. Russell, is more a bother to Bottas than to Hamilton. To make out that Hamilton is bothered that Russell might be better than him is ridiculous to say the least. I am sure he might identify with Russell relative to his F1 formative years alongside Alonso at Mclaren [2007 season].

That said, l must admit that l would like to see Russell in the next car so that we can see how he measures up to the benchmark of all driver, which is Hamilton.

The other thing is you inherently suggest that Bottas is crap. Which is highly debatable. That the Mercedes were slower than the Redbull in Verstapenn's hands at Abu Dhabi brings into question the competences of both Mercedes driver's in your eyes. Somehow, you are inclined to think Russell may have won the race given the drive. I must agree that he may have finished ahead of Bottas, but certainly not win the race.

The worrying thing is that you are already heaping a huge amount of expectation on the young shoulder of this very promising up and coming star. This is the sort of pressure that could burn him out before his prime. We see that he can be great given the chance, equipment and some luck, but that is not guaranteed. And these sort of expectations would not help him either. You seem to not realize why Hamilton was able to reach seven world titles. He did it partly because he took the pressure out of reaching the seven title. One step at a time, he sneaked up to Seven drivers world championship titles.

So l suggest we give him [Russell] the chance to evolve at the pace of idiosyncracies of the Mercedes team. But don't disrespect those that have proved themselves against all benchmarks of F1 greatness in the process of your appreciation of the up and coming talent.

[Nitrodaze]

First of all, Welcome to the forum Lee. I'm really enjoying reading your well-thought-out posts and insight. While I can believe that some of the things you are suggesting could be happening, I think the main thing was that Lewis was bored sitting at home (or where ever he was) and wanted to get back into the car. Of course he wouldn't be happy with someone else doing well in his car, so that only makes his feelings more urgent. Although George did great, Mercedes still has to keep their #1 star happy. George is shining right now, but it's still too early to know if he will ever be at Lewis's level consistently. Lewis has shown he can handle the pressure and deliver day in and day out, with George those kinds of things are still unknown.
The one point I'd have to disagree with you on is when you say Mercedes threw George under the bus. They gave him a great opportunity (at the expense of their own reserve driver) but I doubt it came with guarantees of the next weeks drive if he exceeded expectations. I think that opportunity was a good will offering towards the future. Right now, having Lewis behind is pretty much money in the bank. Why would Mercedes take the chance of cracking him mentally, or bruising his ego by telling him to sit out if he's cleared to go and wants to race?

We feel very deeply for the unfortunate events that resulted in Russell not winning what was a very certain race win. He performed to the highest level that Mercedes expected of him. None of it was intentional. It was embarassing for Mercedes but still a great experience for Russell. He has shown his future rivals to watchout for him and they all acknowleged his message. And Mercedes has confirmed that they have a talent good enough to take on Verstapenn and Leclerc in the future. It is all good l think.

[Bagwan]

Welcome to the forum Lee Rex .

Well thought out comments are always good , even when completely deluded .

My view of it would be that , given how bagged he was when he got out of the car after the race , he shouldn't have been in there in the first place .

My armchair analysis of it is that there's always been a little insecurity in the Lewis brain . We saw it early on in his career when he posted telemetry on the web to prove he wasn't slow .
So , when he saw George was fast , perhaps as ahead as he was against Bottas , he didn't want to see it again .
Maybe contract time has something to do in that thinking , but it should almost be irrelevant in my thoughts .

He is one of the fastest , most consistent , most well-rounded drivers the sport has ever seen .
And , that's why he disappointed me as well , when he didn't bow out and let George and Jack race .
It could have been seen as a kind of "elder statesman" move to let George sit at his desk in the big office one more time .

He missed a trick and then had to stay behind Bottas as well so he didn't crack that egg , too .

I'm disappointed , not that he cares .

[Jag_Warrior]

Racers race.

[Nitrodaze]

Welcome to the forum Lee Rex .

Well thought out comments are always good , even when completely deluded .

My view of it would be that , given how bagged he was when he got out of the car after the race , he shouldn't have been in there in the first place .

My armchair analysis of it is that there's always been a little insecurity in the Lewis brain . We saw it early on in his career when he posted telemetry on the web to prove he wasn't slow .
So , when he saw George was fast , perhaps as ahead as he was against Bottas , he didn't want to see it again .
Maybe contract time has something to do in that thinking , but it should almost be irrelevant in my thoughts .

He is one of the fastest , most consistent , most well-rounded drivers the sport has ever seen .
And , that's why he disappointed me as well , when he didn't bow out and let George and Jack race .
It could have been seen as a kind of "elder statesman" move to let George sit at his desk in the big office one more time .

He missed a trick and then had to stay behind Bottas as well so he didn't crack that egg , too .

I'm disappointed , not that he cares .

I anticipated your post would be something like you have written. I don't think Hamilton missed a trick. Doing what you have suggested is how champions loose their edge. Put Alonso, Vettel or Schumacher in Hamilton's position, l assure you they would all do exactly the same thing. What we have seen is that quality that drive champions to be ahead of everyone. If Russell is a true champion, he would do exactly the same thing put in Hamilton's position in the future.

It is not much different from Russell deciding to sit out Abu Dhabi to let Jack Aitkins have another drive in the Williams. Why should he?

It is what it is. Champions are tigers, they prey and they don't let of. That is what makes them champions. So the theory of being the elder statemans do not apply to these sort of racers which is why they become multiple world champions. What you have described are loosers that may accidentally become champions.

[Bagwan]

I anticipated your post would be something like you have written. I don't think Hamilton missed a trick. Doing what you have suggested is how champions loose their edge. Put Alonso, Vettel or Schumacher in Hamilton's position, l assure you they would all do exactly the same thing. What we have seen is that quality that drive champions to be ahead of everyone. If Russell is a true champion, he would do exactly the same thing put in Hamilton's position in the future.

It is not much different from Russell deciding to sit out Abu Dhabi to let Jack Aitkins have another drive in the Williams. Why should he?

It is what it is. Champions are tigers, they prey and they don't let of. That is what makes them champions. So the theory of being the elder statemans do not apply to these sort of racers which is why they become multiple world champions. What you have described are loosers that may accidentally become champions.

Lewis said he was destroyed after the race .
He was obviously not perfectly fit , and I hope it doesn't hamper his recovery from this serious illness .

[Lee Rex]

I sense a disturbance in the force, Luke. Why just a few days ago I thought I was your "buddy". Now you are accusing me of implying things I did not say.

At no point did I ever imply that Bottas was "crap". He is the perfect #2 driver but I doubt he will ever be a world champion. It is also inappropriate to use the word "inherently". It makes no sense.

It seems that Russel very well could have won in Abu Dhabi. It's also possible that he could have lost. But we will never know, will we?

I do not live in England so I feel no obligation to treat Lewis as anything other than a great driver. I certainly do find him to be demanding and even petulant. I have said nothing but great things about his skills as a driver but as a human being, he is flawed and not a god.

Curiously, just how do you know what's in his contract?

There is a particular accusation that has not reared its head. I'm sure it will show up soon........

[Nitrodaze]

I sense a disturbance in the force, Luke. Why just a few days ago I thought I was your "buddy". Now you are accusing me of implying things I did not say.

At no point did I ever imply that Bottas was "crap". He is the perfect #2 driver but I doubt he will ever be a world champion. It is also inappropriate to use the word "inherently". It makes no sense.

It seems that Russel very well could have won in Abu Dhabi. It's also possible that he could have lost. But we will never know, will we?

I do not live in England so I feel no obligation to treat Lewis as anything other than a great driver. I certainly do find him to be demanding and even petulant. I have said nothing but great things about his skills as a driver but as a human being, he is flawed and not a god.

Curiously, just how do you know what's in his contract?

There is a particular accusation that has not reared its head. I'm sure it will show up soon........

Wellcome to the forum buddy. Here, we give every post a good grilling. You have just had a taste of that. Trust me when l say no hard feelings involved. Your post was refreshing and well presented. I enjoyed reading it and analysing it. Everything l have said in my response are pertaining to what can be analytically deduced from your post. You unfortunately imply alot of things which under scrutiny reveals what was addressed in my response. It may be uncomfortable to read but is essentially what you imply. Nonetheless, l look forward to more of your posts.

[Zico]

I sense a disturbance in the force, Luke. Why just a few days ago I thought I was your "buddy". Now you are accusing me of implying things I did not say.

At no point did I ever imply that Bottas was "crap". He is the perfect #2 driver but I doubt he will ever be a world champion. It is also inappropriate to use the word "inherently". It makes no sense.

It seems that Russel very well could have won in Abu Dhabi. It's also possible that he could have lost. But we will never know, will we?

I do not live in England so I feel no obligation to treat Lewis as anything other than a great driver. I certainly do find him to be demanding and even petulant. I have said nothing but great things about his skills as a driver but as a human being, he is flawed and not a god.

Curiously, just how do you know what's in his contract?

There is a particular accusation that has not reared its head. I'm sure it will show up soon........



Yeah, Nitrodaze is definately not your buddy. He usually says that when he gets pissed at people, typically when he feels his idol has been insulted/criticised (or been the subject of 'hate speech' as he sees it)... but thats ok, every one of us are entitled to our opinions and idolatry isnt a sin here either.

[Nitrodaze]

Yeah, Nitrodaze is definately not your buddy. He usually says that when he gets pissed at people, typically when he feels his idol has been insulted/criticised (or been the subject of 'hate speech' as he sees it)... but thats ok, every one of us are entitled to our opinions and idolatry isnt a sin here either.

Well Zico, you are wrong as usual. To respect someone for their achievement is not idolatory. But you don't get that and l understand. I would say the samething if the subject was Alonso or Vettel or Schumacher. And Yes, Lee is my new buddy. You don't get to say who l make friends with.

My analysis are tough but not with malice. And l always accept when l am wrong unlike you for instance.

[Bagwan]

Well Zico, you are wrong as usual. To respect someone for their achievement is not idolatory. But you don't get that and l understand. I would say the samething if the subject was Alonso or Vettel or Schumacher. And Yes, Lee is my new buddy. You don't get to say who l make friends with.

My analysis are tough but not with malice. And l always accept when l am wrong unlike you for instance.

Calm down .
He told you that you were without sin .

You do tend to get your hackles up when there is the slightest slur directed at Lewis .
Maybe it's easier to see from here , outside your head .

[Zico]

Well Zico, you are wrong as usual. To respect someone for their achievement is not idolatory. But you don't get that and l understand. I would say the samething if the subject was Alonso or Vettel or Schumacher. And Yes, Lee is my new buddy. You don't get to say who l make friends with.

My analysis are tough but not with malice. And l always accept when l am wrong unlike you for instance.


Well judging from your posts 'GOAT, true champion etc etc... you always came across as having a bit more than just respect for Lewis.

Idolatry: extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.

Is it really that offensive to you? That wouldnt bother me but I apologise if it is to you.

I pictured you as a huge fan with perhaps your room decked out as a bit of a shrine.. or at very least pics of him on your wall.. but if thats not the case I apologise.

If I was wrong on you not being pissed with Lee then congrats to both of you on the new blossoming friendship. I love how this forum can bring people with differing opinions together like that, thats really cool. 😎

[Nitrodaze]

Well judging from your posts 'GOAT, true champion etc etc... you always came across as having a bit more than just respect for Lewis.

Idolatry: extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.

Is it really that offensive to you? That wouldnt bother me but I apologise if it is to you.

I pictured you as a huge fan with perhaps your room decked out as a bit of a shrine.. or at very least pics of him on your wall.. but if thats not the case I apologise.

If I was wrong on you not being pissed with Lee then congrats to both of you on the new blossoming friendship. I love how this forum can bring people with differing opinions together like that, thats really cool. ��

It is interesting to see your prejudices are portrayed here so wantonly. You do not really know me, yet you would venture to suggest that l have a shrine of sorts for motorsport racers. After reading all of my posts, all you can surmise from them is extreme idolary.

I think the issue here is your extreme dislike for Hamilton. Reading your posts about him clearly indicate you think he is too brown to enjoy such success. Nothing he does meets with your approval. You make every effort to undermine his achievements. And you simply cannot stand anyone who has anything good to say of the man.

I was filled with admiration when Schumacher was the man to beat, as l did for Vettel and Alonso. I do now for Hamilton as he is the current benchmark for F1 drivers. A fact that pains you deeply l guess. I have a life and a good and rich one. I have no need for shrines or paraphernalia of motorsport.

But when l see brilliance, l would acknowledge it openly. And l do so unreservedly with disregard to any personal features or characteristics of the person displaying the excellence. An attribute that you are clearly devoided of.

[Nitrodaze]

Calm down .
He told you that you were without sin .

You do tend to get your hackles up when there is the slightest slur directed at Lewis .
Maybe it's easier to see from here , outside your head .

Go back and read my posts, you would find l do the same when the subject is Schumacher or Vettel or Alonso. Nothing specific to Hamilton really. But l get it, l find l have to do so more often for Hamilton than usual. I often wonder why.

Afterall, we don't get to see seven time world champions come along very often. With the new regulations, this may well be the last time that we see such feat.

[Bagwan]

It is interesting to see your prejudices are portrayed here so wantonly. You do not really know me, yet you would venture to suggest that l have a shrine of sorts for motorsport racers. After reading all of my posts, all you can surmise from them is extreme idolary.

I think the issue here is your extreme dislike for Hamilton. Reading your posts about him clearly indicate you think he is too brown to enjoy such success. Nothing he does meets with your approval. You make every effort to undermine his achievements. And you simply cannot stand anyone who has anything good to say of the man.

I was filled with admiration when Schumacher was the man to beat, as l did for Vettel and Alonso. I do now for Hamilton as he is the current benchmark for F1 drivers. A fact that pains you deeply l guess. I have a life and a good and rich one. I have no need for shrines or paraphernalia of motorsport.

But when l see brilliance, l would acknowledge it openly. And l do so unreservedly with disregard to any personal features or characteristics of the person displaying the excellence. An attribute that you are clearly devoided of.

Suggesting that Zico is racist is way out of line .
I have never seen any hint of it ever in his posts .
You should apologize .

[Bagwan]

Go back and read my posts, you would find l do the same when the subject is Schumacher or Vettel or Alonso. Nothing specific to Hamilton really. But l get it, l find l have to do so more often for Hamilton than usual. I often wonder why.

Afterall, we don't get to see seven time world champions come along very often. With the new regulations, this may well be the last time that we see such feat.

You seem to say that you understand that your defense "more often for Hamilton than usual" might make people think you are a big fan of his , but when Zico says he's sorry he suggested you were an even bigger fan you rip him up and imply he's racist .

It's no sin to be a super fan .
This is from a guy who defended Jacques to the end , and took the stick for it daily . Ask anyone who's been here long enough .

[Nitrodaze]

You seem to say that you understand that your defense "more often for Hamilton than usual" might make people think you are a big fan of his , but when Zico says he's sorry he suggested you were an even bigger fan you rip him up and imply he's racist .

It's no sin to be a super fan .
This is from a guy who defended Jacques to the end , and took the stick for it daily . Ask anyone who's been here long enough .

If l were a superfan l would happily say so. But Zico is one of the staunch critics of Hamilton on this forum. So much so that l have had run ins with him about his views on a number of occassions. I call it as l see it. But l certainly have not suggested he is racist. As he has not used racist words or views on this forum as far as l am aware. If he did then l would have called him so.

I have only stated that he is suggestive of that kind of view, which he does.

Similarly, l think people should respect those that do exceptional work in all areas of F1. From drivers, to teams and their personel, to the FOM, the FIA and the volunteer marshals. If anyone appears to denigrade any of these people because they don't like them. Then l think someone should stand up and defend such persons. As that goes to show the even views shared on this forum.

If someone is, for instance, saying that the current seven times world champion only managed to be so, solely due to the car and anyone in the same car can also do it. Then naturally, l would have quirms with that. As it so turns out that a few people have put that view forward, of course you would see me being actively vocal against such views. If that makes me a super fan in your eyes, so be it. But please do not expect me to not react to any view l consider unfair or poorly judged. We are all armchair experts. We do not sit in the car while it is going at 200 mph. We risk nothing but say loads. Sometimes callously.

[Bagwan]

If l were a superfan l would happily say so. But Zico is one of the staunch critics of Hamilton on this forum. So much so that l have had run ins with him about his views on a number of occassions. I call it as l see it. But l certainly have not suggested he is racist. As he has not used racist words or views on this forum as far as l am aware. If he did then l would have called him so.

I have only stated that he is suggestive of that kind of view, which he does.

Similarly, l think people should respect those that do exceptional work in all areas of F1. From drivers, to teams and their personel, to the FOM, the FIA and the volunteer marshals. If anyone appears to denigrade any of these people because they don't like them. Then l think someone should stand up and defend such persons. As that goes to show the even views shared on this forum.

If someone is, for instance, saying that the current seven times world champion only managed to be so, solely due to the car and anyone in the same car can also do it. Then naturally, l would have quirms with that. As it so turns out that a few people have put that view forward, of course you would see me being actively vocal against such views. If that makes me a super fan in your eyes, so be it. But please do not expect me to not react to any view l consider unfair or poorly judged. We are all armchair experts. We do not sit in the car while it is going at 200 mph. We risk nothing but say loads. Sometimes callously.

Communication is a tricky thing .
What one must understand is that what one relates is not necessarily the message that another receives .

For instance , I took what you wrote as you implying , rather strongly , that he was being racist .
This is what you wrote :
" Reading your posts about him clearly indicate you think he is too brown to enjoy such success ."

Tell me how that doesn't come off as calling him a racist ?

[Zico]

It is interesting to see your prejudices are portrayed here so wantonly. You do not really know me, yet you would venture to suggest that l have a shrine of sorts for motorsport racers. After reading all of my posts, all you can surmise from them is extreme idolary.

I think the issue here is your extreme dislike for Hamilton. Reading your posts about him clearly indicate you think he is too brown to enjoy such success. Nothing he does meets with your approval. You make every effort to undermine his achievements. And you simply cannot stand anyone who has anything good to say of the man.

I was filled with admiration when Schumacher was the man to beat, as l did for Vettel and Alonso. I do now for Hamilton as he is the current benchmark for F1 drivers. A fact that pains you deeply l guess. I have a life and a good and rich one. I have no need for shrines or paraphernalia of motorsport.

But when l see brilliance, l would acknowledge it openly. And l do so unreservedly with disregard to any personal features or characteristics of the person displaying the excellence. An attribute that you are clearly devoided of.



You are really sinking to new depths now. Implying that I'm racist because I'm not a fan of Lewis? Man, thats just as bad as racism itself.
When Lewis burst on to the F1 scene I was a bit of a fan... and I still am to some degree.. as a driver but I've come to think a lot less of him over the years as a person. Now I just wish he would retire and give someone else a chance.

Here is a interesting fact that hopefully makes you realise just how wrong you are.. Both of my boys have F1 inspired names, Jordan (21) and Lewis (11)... How does that grab you?

[Nitrodaze]

You are really sinking to new depths now. Implying that I'm racist because I'm not a fan of Lewis? Man, thats just as bad as racism itself.
When Lewis burst on to the F1 scene I was a bit of a fan... and I still am to some degree.. as a driver but I've come to think a lot less of him over the years as a person. Now I just wish he would retire and give someone else a chance.

Here is a interesting fact that hopefully makes you realise just how wrong you are.. Both of my boys have F1 inspired names, Jordan (21) and Lewis (11)... How does that grab you?

Well you just proved that l was right all along. You don't like him as a person. I have no interest why. But that clearly taints your posts about him. That you don't like him as a person do not make you racist. But it sure show in your post very clearly. And going around calling people fanboy does not endear you to them either. So you should not be surprised when you get stick for it.

I have clearly stated that l do not think you are a racist, at least l have not read any very clear racist posts from you. I have however said your post are so strongly of disliike for Hamilton such that it appears as if you begrudge him his success. My choice of words were not impeccable and l apologized for that.

[Zico]

Well you just proved that l was right all along. You don't like him as a person. I have no interest why. But that clearly taints your posts about him. That you don't like him as a person do not make you racist. But it sure show in your post very clearly. And going around calling people fanboy does not endear you to them either. So you should not be surprised when you get stick for it.

I have clearly stated that l do not think you are a racist, at least l have not read any very clear racist posts from you. I have however said your post are so strongly of disliike for Hamilton such that it appears as if you begrudge him his success. My choice of words were not impeccable and l apologized for that.


I dont have to like particular people just because you do. Its a free world and this isnt a Lewis Hamilton forum.

You are full of crap.. How you can clearly say/imply I am racist, then deny you have said/implied it... then apolgise for a 'not impeccable' choice of words. Thats a fake apology and so an unacceptable one.

I reckon you probably do have Hamilton pics on your wall and thats why you are so pissed at me.

Have a lovely day.

[Nitrodaze]

You are full of crap..


Well so are you. You shall not get another apology from me again.

[Bagwan]

Well so are you. You shall not get another apology from me again.

You deserved that .

[Jag_Warrior]

https://i.imgflip.com/183m1w.jpg

Come on guys... there's less than a dozen of us regulars left here on the F1 forum.

[Nitrodaze]

You deserved that .

Well it is nice to know you think l am full of crap.

[Bagwan]

Well it is nice to know you think l am full of crap.

Dude , you make some really great contributions to this forum , and I enjoy reading them .
But , you went too far this time .
And then , you made it worse by not owning your mistake and properly apologizing for it .

My advice , for someone in your shoes , is to write your post and sit back and read what you have written a few times , to make sure what you are saying is what might be understood by the reader .
And , further to that , take what others are saying about you as what you "look" like on the forum .
It might not be what you are , but only you can change that perception .

One more thing . That advice is for everyone , not just you , so don't feel too singled out .
I follow it , myself , to make sure my point gets across , as , if it doesn't , what really is the point ?

So , carry on posting , as your opinions are well valid .

And , maybe , try a new apology for Zico , because he really is a good guy , even if you guys disagree on a few things .
A debate needs both sides .


And , a note to Zico to say that you own a portion of this foofaraw as well , don't forget , as it was you interjection about Nitro that kinda started this . Just sayin' .

[Zico]

.And , a note to Zico to say that you own a portion of this foofaraw as well , don't forget , as it was you interjection about Nitro that kinda started this . Just sayin' .

You are right, I'd been called 'buddy' by Nitro the last time he got annoyed at me but I really shouldnt have posted that... I should gave opted to remain silent and none of this would have happened.

May as well get this off my chest... Nitrodaze, I find your constant adulation of Hamilton way OTT, cringeworthy and slightly irritating and thats why I tend to get a bit 'needley' with you sometimes.

Lewis had a truly unbelievable entrance into F1 matching Alonso in his very first season, it was unprecedented and it was clear that he was a massive talent and you could say I was definately a fan of him as a driver.
As time went on he slowly changed to be more media focussed and less himself, more of a corporate robot and as a super rich superstar had lost touch with the general public... and myself.
As time went on and he became even more media focused, 'Go green, Save the world' but I'm still gonna do this monster carbon footprint sport and hang around in it like a fart in a spacesuit because I want x amount of of WDC's and all the while slagging it off... I find that to be very hypocritical. Then getting into racial politics with BLM, I found that quite ridiculous and feel strongly that sport should remain 100% unpoliticised.

While I think he has it too easy in the Merc, I still rate him very highly as a driver I just don't really like him very much now as a person.. but... its certainly not because of the colour of his skin. Sorry, but thats just trash talk and its downright offensive.

Anyway, I'm sorry for my part in this. I apologise for needling you, thats my bad, my fault and I'm going to work on that. Lifes too short. I'm gonna try to be more respectful to you in future.

Peace. ✌

[airshifter]

I can't say that I am sad I missed this as it happened. At least there are attempts to calm things down some.

There are much more important things in life than arguing on the internet.

















































Like the fact that Bagwan is a Jacques supporter!
But I'd still have a beer with him any time. Just not a Canadian beer. :laugh:

[Nitrodaze]

Dude , you make some really great contributions to this forum , and I enjoy reading them .
But , you went too far this time .
And then , you made it worse by not owning your mistake and properly apologizing for it .

My advice , for someone in your shoes , is to write your post and sit back and read what you have written a few times , to make sure what you are saying is what might be understood by the reader .
And , further to that , take what others are saying about you as what you "look" like on the forum .
It might not be what you are , but only you can change that perception .

One more thing . That advice is for everyone , not just you , so don't feel too singled out .
I follow it , myself , to make sure my point gets across , as , if it doesn't , what really is the point ?

So , carry on posting , as your opinions are well valid .

And , maybe , try a new apology for Zico , because he really is a good guy , even if you guys disagree on a few things .
A debate needs both sides .


And , a note to Zico to say that you own a portion of this foofaraw as well , don't forget , as it was you interjection about Nitro that kinda started this . Just sayin' .

Bagwan, Thank you for your post. You and l have had run ins in the past also. So your perspective on this matter is not necessarily without some personal frustration that you have with me. But l have always been very respectful to you. And your posts have always found me chuckling at the wittiness of them.

When somebody's post is fiiled with dislike, it is coming from a place of very subjective thinking. As such it leaves anyone reading such a post with two simple choices; join in the subjective thought and express ones support for it or secondly, take the objective path and show the error in those views. If you do this, then you are percieved to be a super fanboy.

What l see here, is my resistance to join the ever appearing Hamilton bashing thinking regularly appearing in posts on this forum, puts me at odds with certain people. I suppose l could just abstain from these sort of posts and let them run their courses. At least, everyone is entitled their own views regardless how warped they are.

What l am realizing from yours and Zico's comments is that, that is what would be best in the future. So knock yourselves out, l shall not be counter-commenting in the future. If you say something positive or interesting, l shall join in and converse with you. Life is too short to be burning time on pointless banters.

Like l said there are no hard feelings on anything that has been said from me.

[Bagwan]

Bagwan, Thank you for your post. You and l have had run ins in the past also. So your perspective on this matter is not necessarily without some personal frustration that you have with me. But l have always been very respectful to you. And your posts have always found me chuckling at the wittiness of them.

When somebody's post if fiiled with dislike, it is coming from a place of very subjective thinking. As such it leaves anyone reading such a post with two simple choices; join in the subjective thought and express ones support for it or secondly, take the objective path and show the error in those views. If you do this, then you are percieved to be a super fanboy.

What l see here, is my resistance to join the ever appearing Hamilton bashing thinking regularly appearing in posts on this forum, puts me at odds with certain people. I suppose l could just abstain from these sort of posts and let them run their courses. At least, everyone is entitled their own views regardless how warped they are.

What l am realizing from yours and Zico's comments is that, that is what would be best in the future. So knock yourselves out, l shall not be counter-commenting in the future. If you say something positive or interesting, l shall join in and converse with you. Life is too short to be burning time on pointless banters.

Like l said there are no hard feelings on anything that has been said from me.

If the message you have gotten from what I have written is that I wish you to stop commenting , than I have done a very poor job of communicating here .
This place is all about debate .
Without an opposing view , the whole thing goes out the window .

We all have our opinions , and even though my own are the only truly valid ones , I am willing and able to listen to all the counter-arguments before I ruthlessly crush them with my huge brain .

[Mia 01]

I can admit that Lewis is one of the great, but, he was absolutely worn out after the last race an should perhaps not raced that one.For his one sake that is.

I´m a Kimi fan and I´m grateful that he is on the grid next year to. You could give me crap for that if you guys like.

[Nitrodaze]

If the message you have gotten from what I have written is that I wish you to stop commenting , than I have done a very poor job of communicating here .
This place is all about debate .
Without an opposing view , the whole thing goes out the window .

We all have our opinions , and even though my own are the only truly valid ones , I am willing and able to listen to all the counter-arguments before I ruthlessly crush them with my huge brain .

Actually Baggy, l have been in lockdown for months now, l am restless and not sleeping well. So l am honestly doubtful l can respond appropriately to all of this. I certainly do not want to talk about it anymore as it is beginning to depress me. I shall revisit this post at a later date and make any sort of amends that is required. I have always seen Zico and you as buddies of mine. Hence why l can comment as do with you. So no hard feelings. Just let it go for now.

[Nitrodaze]

I can admit that Lewis is one of the great, but, he was absolutely worn out after the last race an should perhaps not raced that one.For his one sake that is.

I´m a Kimi fan and I´m grateful that he is on the grid next year to. You could give me crap for that if you guys like.

We love you Mia. So you can say whatever you want and nobody would give you crap.

[Bagwan]

I can admit that Lewis is one of the great, but, he was absolutely worn out after the last race an should perhaps not raced that one.For his one sake that is.

I´m a Kimi fan and I´m grateful that he is on the grid next year to. You could give me crap for that if you guys like.

Do you have Kimi's book , Mia ?

[Bagwan]

Actually Baggy, l have been in lockdown for months now, l am restless and not sleeping well. So l am honestly doubtful l can respond appropriately to all of this. I certainly do not want to talk about it anymore as it is beginning to depress me. I shall revisit this post at a later date and make any sort of amends that is required. I have always seen Zico and you as buddies of mine. Hence why l can comment as do with you. So no hard feelings. Just let it go for now.

When I disagree with anybody here , I try to do it the least obnoxious way I can , so I get a measured reaction from the opposite view .

Oops , I didn't really let it go there , did I ?
Sorry for that .

I have 3 Jacques Villeneuve hats .
Just sayin' .

[Mia 01]

Do you have Kimi's book , Mia ?

No but I would like to, perhaps I can wish it for a birtday present.

[Bagwan]

No but I would like to, perhaps I can wish it for a birtday present.

I just happen to have a copy , and am happy to send you that present if you want to PM me .
It won't make it for Christmas now , so when is your birthday ?

[Bagwan]

I just happen to have a copy , and am happy to send you that present if you want to PM me .
It won't make it for Christmas now , so when is your birthday ?

I'm serious about that , Mia .
There are no strings attached .

It'd just be nice to be able to do something nice .

[Mia 01]

I'm serious about that , Mia .
There are no strings attached .

It'd just be nice to be able to do something nice .

Thank you Bagwan!! You just did.
But, my sons can perhaps give one copy to me in the first day of april.

[Bagwan]

My pleasure , Mia .

Merry Christmas to you and all my other pals here .

[Nitrodaze]

My pleasure , Mia .

Merry Christmas to you and all my other pals here .

Merry Christmas Petrol heads!