Honda quit F1...again!

[gm99]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-exit-2021-red-bull/4885092/

The Japanese have a hand for quitting just when things start to look good, just like in 2008 where they had a championship-winning car in the pipeline for 2009.

It will be interesting to see who Red Bull will now be turning to (or maybe they will quit F1, too).

[Tazio]

Ba-bye :wave:

[The Black Knight]

This time they should leave for good and be told that if they leave they will not be returning. I for one as a fan am sick of their yo yo’ing back and forth from F1. They clearly are a manufacturer that is not committed to F1 on any long term basis.

Poor RBR will have to go crying back to Renault 😂😂😂

[Bagwan]

The rumour now flying is that they are courting Porsche .

[truefan72]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-exit-2021-red-bull/4885092/

The Japanese have a hand for quitting just when things start to look good, just like in 2008 where they had a championship-winning car in the pipeline for 2009.

It will be interesting to see who Red Bull will now be turning to (or maybe they will quit F1, too).

Well I don't know what their financial situation is like, but this seems like a poor decision.
Thery stated that their goal of "winning races" has been accomplished. Bizarre

For RBR's sake i would hope they would find a way to purchase (along with some investors) the honda engine department and rebrand it infinty.
Then watch them go out and win the 2022 WCC similar to what went down in 2008.
I'm pretty sure Honda has been working on the 2022 engine as well, so that can be salvaged.

I wonder if RBR knew before they resigned the concorde agreement, and if honda knew already that they were pulling out.
But RBR already said they are committed and will evaluate their options.

But this is a bit pathetic by honda. the timing could not be worse. the press statement banal, and they just might be shooting themselves in the foot in PR terms.

[truefan72]

The rumour now flying is that they are courting Porsche .

makes sense, in so far as Porsche simply buying up the honda engine department to start off with.
we shall see...

[gm99]

For RBR's sake i would hope they would find a way to purchase (along with some investors) the honda engine department and rebrand it infinty.
Then watch them go out and win the 2021 WCC similar to what went down in 2008.
I'm pretty sure Honda has been working on the 2021 engine as well, so that can be salvaged.


Honda will stay on until the end of the 2021 season, anyway, so at least the pull-out is not quite as sudden as it was in 2008. But I guess there won't be a 2022 engine to salvage.

[Nitrodaze]

Well l am not surprised really. I think they are not interested in the new regulations. I always felt the standardization of powertrain components and sharing intellectual property was going to be a sticking point for Honda.

The Exodus has began.

[Nitrodaze]

makes sense, in so far as Porsche simply buying up the honda engine department to start off with.
we shall see...

It will depend largely on whether Porsche is interested in the new regulation F1. Porsche has resisted coming into F1 before. Mclaren talked to them when they were moving from Honda, and they were not interested. What is Redbull going to tell them that would make them suddenly interested?

[Nitrodaze]

This time they should leave for good and be told that if they leave they will not be returning. I for one as a fan am sick of their yo yo’ing back and forth from F1. They clearly are a manufacturer that is not committed to F1 on any long term basis.

Poor RBR will have to go crying back to Renault ������

Not fair to kick Honda for leaving. There are lots of things that they must have taken into consideration. I am sure they are not hard on cash to stop financing their engine programme.

The high numbers of Ferrari ex staff in key FIA nad F1 Management positions is something they would be concerned about. As well as the new regulations coming in 2022. The handling of the Ferrari engine infraction must have been a serious concern to them. Especially when they factor in the punishment of Hamilton in relation to the Ferrari-engine-gate [and all aforementioned things].

This is particularly the case as the new regulations moved alot of power from the teams and concentrate them in the hands of the F1 management, which can be seen to be under the indirect control of Ferrari.

The fact of the matter is, F1 is not very attractive at the moment.

Redbull would have their job cut out, persuading Porsche to join this dodgy looking F1 setup.

[truefan72]

Honda will stay on until the end of the 2021 season, anyway, so at least the pull-out is not quite as sudden as it was in 2008. But I guess there won't be a 2022 engine to salvage. yup. I meant to say 2022. Will correct

[truefan72]

Well l am not surprised really. I think they are not interested in the new regulations. I always felt the standardization of powertrain components and sharing intellectual property was going to be a sticking point for Honda.

The Exodus has began.

Hmm. Good point

[truefan72]

The high numbers of Ferrari ex staff in key FIA nad F1 Management positions is something they would be concerned about. As well as the new regulations coming in 2022. The handling of the Ferrari engine infraction must have been a serious concern to them. Especially when they factor the punishment of Hamilton in relation to the Ferrari-engine-gate [and all aforementioned things].

This is particularly the case as the new regulations moved alot of power from the teams and concentrate them in the hands of the F1 management, which can be seen to be under the indirect control of Ferrari.

Completely agree. It’s like a Ferrari takeover of F1 and I’m pretty sick of it. Can’t imagine how other teams feel. It’s absurd that they blatantly cheated in 2019 and somehow manage to come out of this in an even stronger position and maintain the special dispensation. Won’t be surprised if Mercedes pull out and focus on formula-e.

[Nitrodaze]

Completely agree. It’s like a Ferrari takeover of F1 and I’m pretty sick of it. Can’t imagine how other teams feel. It’s absurd that they blatantly cheated in 2019 and somehow manage to come out of this in an even stronger position and maintain the special dispensation. Won’t be surprised if Mercedes pull out and focus on formula-e.

The optics looks bad for F1 at the moment. I simply can't understand why Liberty thought it would be ok to appoint Domenicalli. I thought Chase Carey was perfect. It would not be easy to replace him. And l think they would be searching for a new CEO soon by the looks of things.

[Jag_Warrior]

Well, this is certainly the biggest news day that I've faced in a long while.

I figured they'd drop the ICS or IMSA before dropping F1. Instead, Honda dropped Penske for its 2021 IMSA program (going with Wayne Taylor and Meyer Shank) and will ax the F1 program totally. So I'm guessing that those Honda to NASCAR rumors are dead... or???

My head is spinning today. I might just change my screen name to JagRok or Rok_Warrior. :D

[The Black Knight]

Not fair to kick Honda for leaving. There are lots of things that they must have taken into consideration. I sure they are not hard on cash to stop financing their engine programme.

The high numbers of Ferrari ex staff in key FIA nad F1 Management positions is something they would be concerned about. As well as the new regulations coming in 2022. The handling of the Ferrari engine infraction must have been a serious concern to them. Especially when they factor the punishment of Hamilton in relation to the Ferrari-engine-gate [and all aforementioned things].

This is particularly the case as the new regulations moved alot of power from the teams and concentrate them in the hands of the F1 management, which can be seen to be under the indirect control of Ferrari.

The fact of the matter is, F1 is not very attractive at the moment.

Redbull would have their job cut out, persuading Porsche to join this dodgy looking F1 setup.

These are valid points you make. I hadn’t really thought about it from this POV as reasons for them pulling out. I retract my previous statement.

The indirect control of Ferrari must be a serious concern. I couldn’t blame Mercedes for pulling out either, and with that the same must apply for Honda. I wonder if Mercedes knew Domenicalli was going to be announced as F1 CEO when they signed. You’d imagine they must have given how recent in the past it was.

RBR will be staying in F1 anyway:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/152552/red-bull-alphatauri-to-stay-in-f1-despite-honda-exit

[Nitrodaze]

These are valid points you make. I hadn’t really thought about it from this POV as reasons for them pulling out. I retract my previous statement.

The indirect control of Ferrari must be a serious concern. I couldn’t blame Mercedes for pulling out either, and with that the same must apply for Honda. I wonder if Mercedes knew Domenicalli was going to be announced as F1 CEO when they signed. You’d imagine they must have given how recent in the past it was.

RBR will be staying in F1 anyway:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/152552/red-bull-alphatauri-to-stay-in-f1-despite-honda-exit

Redbull is a customer team. It is safe to say all customer teams are likely to stay.

[Nitrodaze]

Now after digesting this unexpected news of Honda's departure. We ask what now for Redbull?

Mercedes already have two teams they supply; Racing Point and Williams. Ferrari has two teams they supply; Haas and Alfa Romeo. Renault only supplies one team; Mclaren. After Honda departs in 2022, Mercedes would be suppying three teams; Aston Martin, Williams and Mclaren. Ferrari would remain unchanged and Renault would have no commitment to any customer team. With two unsupplied team seeking engines.

In terms of workload and cost, it is obvious that Mercedes would not be keen to increase their commitment. I have a feeling that Ferrari would not want to double their current commitment either.

With new engine regulations coming in 2026, i find it hard to see a new manufacturer wanting to take on the pain and expense of building a new hybrid engine, considering that it took Honda 3 years plus to get competitive and failure free.

There is a lot of talk about Redbull taking over the Honda engines and Intellectual Property. That might be feasible, but the inherent knowledge that went into building that engine would take time to transfer. The need for continued development of the engine to maintain its competitivity suggest that this might be a risky option but doable.

A less risky approach would be to go back to the Renault engine. I am sure Abitebout would very much hate the idea but they may have no choice but to give Redbull and Alpha Tauri their engines. The Renault engines of late has shown some genuine pace. Unfortunately, the Renault chassis has not been able to harness the full capability of that engine. It may give Redbull what they need to fight at the sharp end of the grid.

The other question is, can Redbull hang on to Verstapenn with this development. The driver market for 2022 now takes on a different complexion as Verstapenn shakes up the market. Can we see Verstapenn in Mercedes in 2022?

A Hamilton vs Verstapenn pairing in a silver Arrows is a very popular wish. Would Toto consider this pairing? It is not without its headache. Having two alpha males in the same pen is bound to try any managers resolve.

[Bagwan]

So , I hadn't heard that Chase was chased out in any way .
Was he ?
And , Stefano came from Lambo last , didn't he ?
Isn't that the V-dub group ?

And , Porsche has an F1 engine waiting , apparently , according to Saward .

So maybe Honda is paranoid about V-dub , not Ferrari .


I don't really believe that .
Nor do I believe that Honda leaving is in any way related to fearing the evil Stefano's rule .

RBR and AT will need to choose to build a new engine with the Honda base , or partner Porsche .
And , it looks like Andy Cowell being at loose ends may help with either choice .

[Nitrodaze]

So , I hadn't heard that Chase was chased out in any way .
Was he ?
Not really, he is moving to other positions within Liberty l guess, but with links to the F1 activity he says.

I think Chase Carey has not finished what he set out to do. His bailing out now simply leaves the F1 establishment in some disarray. Firstly is the concern that there might be a change of philosophy with the change of CEO. Domenicalli would want to be his own man and stamp his own mark on the CEO role.

This is where some level of concern may lie, however, it would be supressed to give Domenicalli a chance to settle in and make his views clear. Personally, l think he would do a great job, as he brings a lot of experience from running the Ferrari team and winning a world championship with Kimi Raikonen.



And , Stefano came from Lambo last , didn't he ?
Isn't that the V-dub group ?

And , Porsche has an F1 engine waiting , apparently , according to Saward .

So maybe Honda is paranoid about V-dub , not Ferrari .

It is irrelevant where Stefano last worked, he was Ferrari f1 team boss for over five seasons, so he is seen very much as a Ferrari man. By the way, Lamborghini use to be owned by Ferrari. So there is a loose link there.

The Porsche engine would not be quite as advanced as the Honda engine. It may need a few years to iron out the kinks and get it as competitive as [at least] the Renault engine. That said, Porsche have a lot of experience with hybrid engines. If the Panamera is anything to go by.



I don't really believe that .
Nor do I believe that Honda leaving is in any way related to fearing the evil Stefano's rule .

RBR and AT will need to choose to build a new engine with the Honda base , or partner Porsche .
And , it looks like Andy Cowell being at loose ends may help with either choice .

A RBR partnership with Porsche for the long term makes sense. That is if Porsche is interested. I doubt Honda has a problem with Domenicalli personally, there are a number of things that they must have taken into consideration. I have guessed a few. And my guess may be very wrong mind you.

One thing is certain, nobody buys the Honda excuse of wanting to focus in other part of their business. They have the capacity to do F1 and pursue other business areas.

[Jag_Warrior]

It is irrelevant where Stefano last worked, he was Ferrari f1 team boss for over five seasons, so he is seen very much as a Ferrari man. By the way, Lamborghini use to be owned by Ferrari. So there is a loose link there.


A RBR partnership with Porsche for the long term makes sense. That is if Porsche is interested. I doubt Honda has a problem with Domenicalli personally, there are a number of things that they must have taken into consideration. I have guessed a few. And my guess may be very wrong mind you.

One thing is certain, nobody buys the Honda excuse of wanting to focus in other part of their business. They have the capacity to do F1 and pursue other business areas.

I don't think Ferrari ever owned Lamborghini. Maybe you're thinking of when Chrysler owned them in the 80s/90s? But that was well before the Fiat tie up with bankrupt Chrysler. No matter though. I think you're right. Domenicalli is a Ferrari man, in that he went to work for them straight out of college. But most in the paddock seem to respect him as a straight shooter. I have more faith in him doing a good (read, "unbiased") job with Liberty than I do with Jean Todt being president of the FIA. His super secret punishment for Ferrari's cheater PU says it all, IMO.

And yes, I'm also hoping that RBR can either buy out Honda's engine works, or convince Porsche to come in and partner with them in the project. I think it's a little late in the game to expect Porsche to have a (competitive) standalone PU ready to go by 2022.

[Nitrodaze]

I don't think Ferrari ever owned Lamborghini. Maybe you're thinking of when Chrysler owned them in the 80s/90s? But that was well before the Fiat tie up with bankrupt Chrysler. No matter though. I think you're right. Domenicalli is a Ferrari man, in that he went to work for them straight out of college. But most in the paddock seem to respect him as a straight shooter. I have more faith in him doing a good (read, "unbiased") job with Liberty than I do with Jean Todt being president of the FIA. His super secret punishment for Ferrari's cheater PU says it all, IMO.

And yes, I'm also hoping that RBR can either buy out Honda's engine works, or convince Porsche to come in and partner with them in the project. I think it's a little late in the game to expect Porsche to have a (competitive) standalone PU ready to go by 2022.

I stand corrected. I am not a Lamborghini fan as you can guess.

[Tazio]

Lamborghini use to be owned by Ferrari.
:stareup: Ferruccio Lamborghini would roll over in his grave!

[Nitrodaze]

:stareup: Ferruccio Lamborghini would roll over in his grave!

LOL Yeah, l just read Lamborghini had a beef with Ferrari about brakes . So that was probably an unforgiveable error. :D

[Tazio]

:stareup: Clutch!
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a25169632/lamborghini-supercars-exist-because-of-a-tractor/

[Nitrodaze]

:stareup: Clutch!
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a25169632/lamborghini-supercars-exist-because-of-a-tractor/

Yeah Yeah, same difference. They had a beef he decided to build a car, yada yada Lambo was born.

Not very interested in Lamborghini. I think they are very pointless waste of cash. But that is just my opinion. I am pound wise and penny foolish. That's not to say that l do not appreciate the ingenuity that goes into every car they build. Just not my cup of tea, sorry.

[Tazio]

sorry.
:stareup: Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry :dork: :wave: :sailor:

[pantealex]

Yeah Yeah, same difference. They had a beef he decided to build a car, yada yada Lambo was born.

Not very interested in Lamborghini. I think they are very pointless waste of cash. But that is just my opinion. I am pound wise and penny foolish. That's not to say that l do not appreciate the ingenuity that goes into every car they build. Just not my cup of tea, sorry.

Lamborghini is way more quality car than Ferrari.

Try to find Ferrari which has runned more than 100K miles...
(it very easy to find Lambo with 150K miles)

[Nitrodaze]

Lamborghini is way more quality car than Ferrari.

Try to find Ferrari which has runned more than 100K miles...
(it very easy to find Lambo with 150K miles)

These cars are fashion accessories. They are designed and built for people with a narcissist trait. They are only driven to show off wealth or self importance. But rarely for practical reasons because a less expensive car is always better for daily usage purposes.

[pantealex]

These cars are fashion accessories. They are designed and built for people with a narcissist trait. They are only driven to show off wealth or self importance. But rarely for practical reasons because a less expensive car is always better for daily usage purposes.

NO

Even here in Finland we have people who drive with their Lamborghini´s every day thru winter time also (and I´m not talking about SUV models)

[Nitrodaze]

What if Redbull suddenly decides to quit F1 at the end of 2021?

It sounds unlikely, but is seeming very probable at the moment. That scenario would punch a huge hole in the F1 typical grid as it would take two teams and four cars out of the sport. I don't think there are any other team that could have that sort of impact. Probably, except Ferrari. If Alfa Romeo follows them out.

The drink giants is pondering their futiure in the sport, amid dwindling options. And the prospect of a fraught partnership with Renault. As the past partnership between these two giants of industry was far from amicable in their last few years together, it would take a very humble Redbull and a forgiving Renault to make a future partnership possible. But are these chaps going to park their egos to let this happen? We would have to see.

A redbull exit is the most undesireable outcome that any fan of F1 would want to happen. So, l kind of hope they would sort it out somehow.

[Nitrodaze]

Why it is not a great idea for Honda to part ways with F1 :-

1. Honda is leaving F1 at the time when their strong F1 presence was about to be translated into increased appeal for Honda products on the streets.
2. They arde beginning to develop an image of "Quitters".
3. They have not proved that they can beat Mercedes in a season long engine perfomance battle by winning a championship with a Honda power F1 team.