Let's talk Racing Point AKA Aston Martin

[Nitrodaze]

There is a lot going on with racing point at the moment. I thought it would be a good idea to create a separate thread to discuss Racing Point.

Firstly is the COPYING APPEAL.

While Renault has pulled out of the appeal process, Ferrari seem very invested in pursuing this to the end. Meanwhile Racing point has already suffered a 15 points drop in the constructors championship and a $400k penalty for a midfield team that was almost on it way out of F1 at the end of 2018.

Racing Point copying Mercedes introduces a new perspective to the issue of development cost burden facing midfield teams. It suggests that, midfiled teams can save cost by buying old chassis of the manufacturer teams and save on development cost that way. Which would reduce the financial pressure driving the midfield teams into financial dificulties. This approach retains the DNA of F1 but does not necessarily bridge the gap between the big spenders and the customer privateer teams. But it guarantees stiff competition in the midfield, and the midfield cars would be good enough to win races when the big teams are not having a good weekend.

https://i0.wp.com/thejudge13.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Racing-Point%E2%80%99s-RP20-compared-with-Mercedes%E2%80%99s-W10.png?fit=874%2C498&ssl=1

The real question now is, does it have to be a level playing field? Is that such an important thing such that it is necessary to break the F1 DNA? Hence, the new 2022 regulation seem abit draconian when you really compare it to the new alternative that the Racing Point and Haas approach has introduced.

But let us not forget those teams that prefer to manufacture their own chassis rather than buy some other team's cast off. They would continue to be faced with a ballooning cost to be able to match the big teams like Ferrari, Mercedes and Redbull competitively. But that is choice for those teams really don't you think. There is an unavoidable price to taking on the big teams. That is the way it should be to preserve the innovative cooking pot that makes F1 such a unique racing formula. There is a diminishing return on spending which would suggest that there is an inherent limit to the spending of the big teams. Ferrari has hit it, The more they spend, the less the return on investment it seems.

PEREZ Vs VETTEL

There seem to be much talk about Vettel heading to Racing Point. Most of us have concluded that if that was the case, then it would be to replace Perez rather than the slower Lance Stroll. While l rate Vettel highly, it still begger the question as to why would Racing Point want to dump Perez for Vettel.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/sebastian-vettel-of-germany-driving-the-scuderia-ferrari-on-news-photo-1589576823.jpg

Lots of questions come to mind, like is Vettel going to do a better job than Perez for instance. Considering that Perez has been exceptional for Racing Point and has been their longest serving dedicate and loyal driver. What is the up side for Racing Point to make this change?

https://e0.365dm.com/18/04/2048x1152/skysports-sergio-perez-force-india_4297097.jpg

The obvious things are, that Racing Point would have a multiple world champion in their car. Which would suit Aston Martin from a commercial stand point. With Aston Martin's investment in the team, they can probably afford to lose Perez's funding from his backers. But in commonsence terms, would they normally choose Vettel over Perez?

[djip]

There is a lot going on with racing point at the moment. I thought it would be a good idea to create a separate thread to discuss Racing Point.

Firstly is the COPYING APPEAL.

While Renault has pulled out of the appeal process, Ferrari seem very invested in pursuing this to the end. Meanwhile Racing point has already suffered a 15 points drop in the constructors championship and a $400k penalty for a midfield team that was almost on it way out of F1 at the end of 2018.

The racing point copying Mercedes introduces a new perspective to issue of development cost to midfield team. It suggests that, midfiled teams can save cost by buying old chassis of the manufacturer teams and save on development cost that way. Which would reduce the financial pressure driving the midfield teams into financial dificulties. This approach retains the DNA of F1 but does not necessarily bridge the gap between the big spenders and the customer privateer teams. But it guarantees stiff competition in the midfield which would be good enough to win races when the big teams are not having a good weekend.

https://i0.wp.com/thejudge13.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Racing-Point%E2%80%99s-RP20-compared-with-Mercedes%E2%80%99s-W10.png?fit=874%2C498&ssl=1

The real question now is, does it have to be a level playing field? Is that such an important thing such that it is necessary to break the F1 DNA? Hence, the new 2022 regulation seem abit draconian when you really compare it to the new alternative that the Racing Point and Haas approach has introduced. But let us not forget those teams that preffer to manufacture their own chassis rather than buy some other teams cast off. They would continue to be faced with a ballooning cost to be able to match the big teams like Ferrari, Mercedes and Redbull. But that is choice for those teams really don't you think. There is an unavoidable price to taking on the big teams. That is the way it should be to preserve the innovative cooking pot that makes F1 such a unique racing formula.

PEREZ Vs VETTEL

There seem to be much talk about Vettel heading to Racing Point. Most of us have concluded that if that was the case, then it would be to replace Perez rather than the slower Lance Stroll. While l rate Vettel highly, it still begger the question as to why would Racing Point want to dump Perez for Vettel.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/sebastian-vettel-of-germany-driving-the-scuderia-ferrari-on-news-photo-1589576823.jpg

Lots of questions come to mind, like is Vettel going to do a better job than Perez for instance. Considering that Perez has been exceptional for Racing Point and has been their longest serving dedicate and loyal driver. What is the up side for Racing Point to make this change?

https://e0.365dm.com/18/04/2048x1152/skysports-sergio-perez-force-india_4297097.jpg

The obvious things are, that Racing Point would have a multiple world champion in their car. Which would suit Aston Martin from a commercial stand point. With Aston Martin's investment in the team, they can probably afford to lose Perez's funding from his backers. But in commonsence terms, would they normally choose Vettel over Perez?


I see absolutely no reason for a team to replace Perez by Vettel - marketing aside. I would even see only drawback (higher expectations, blaming the team/car if things go south, ...), not to mention that I believe that at this stage of their respective carreers, Perez is probably a better / more rounded driver - in particular when tyres saving is critical.

[zako85]

You raise a lot of interesting questions for which right now we don't have certain answers. We can only guess.

First of all, I am now getting really confused about which the hell team is now the "Aston Martin" of F1 each season of the year. There used to Red Bull Aston Martin Racing, powered by a Honda Civic engine, and now Racing Point-Mercedes, the former Force India? Mmokay, got that. Very confusing strategy for AM. I guess AM is short on cash to continue sponsoring Red Bull, and so it moves down in F1 team ladder to Racing Point. It's a good thing. I don't think Red Bull really needed another rich title sponsor, but Racing Point probably does.

Second, on the Racing Point dispute and Mercedes, I am really not at all qualified to comment on the veracity of the "copying" allegations and all, but should it really be surprising that Ferrari is still pursuing it? Ferrari's ego got hurt this year because instead of racing against the leaders for the podiums and wins, they're often trading blows with... Racing Point. That team was the freaking Force India years ago. Ferrari can't stomach having to fight against them, and hence the long technical inquiry. This is despite some strong indications that Ferrari itself was cheating on something last year. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

Vettel and 2021: I, just like everyone else and the sports media, have no idea where he is going to end up next year. It's clear that Vettel wants to continue racing and that he still has things to prove (such as, for one, proving that his four WDC titles weren't a fluke). However, the number of available racing seats for 2021 is rapidly shrinking, and his options are looking weaker each day. If I could give advise to Vettel, I'd recommend him to take a year or two off. From outside view, it just seems like he is burned out and tired, and so signing up with a team like Racing Point won't fix it. Taking some time off does not mean the end of career. There are many examples of WDCs leaving F1 for some time and then returning in great form.

[zako85]

I see absolutely no reason for a team to replace Perez by Vettel - marketing aside. I would even see only drawback (higher expectations, blaming the team/car if things go south, ...), not to mention that I believe that at this stage of their respective carreers, Perez is probably a better / more rounded driver - in particular when tyres saving is critical.

I am a fan of Perez. Despite being a pay driver, he proved that he absolutely belongs in Formula 1. He also set a few firsts now becoming the Mexican driver with the most podiums. I am curious why Racing Point would want to trade him. Is Carlos Slim not backing Perez any more?

[Bagwan]

Didn't see it , but apparently the two RP drivers had very different answers to the question of who's driving next year .
Perez had lots to say , and Lance , not so much .

[gm99]

First of all, I am now getting really confused about which the hell team is now the "Aston Martin" of F1 each season of the year. There used to Red Bull Aston Martin Racing, powered by a Honda Civic engine, and now Racing Point-Mercedes, the former Force India? Mmokay, got that. Very confusing strategy for AM. I guess AM is short on cash to continue sponsoring Red Bull, and so it moves down in F1 team ladder to Racing Point. It's a good thing. I don't think Red Bull really needed another rich title sponsor, but Racing Point probably does.


Lawrence Stroll is a minority stake-holder (25 %, I believe) in Aston Martin; he also owns Racing Point. So from his perspective, it makes sense to unite the two in F1. It wouldn't make much sense from his point to support a rival team, i.e. Red Bull Racing.

[Nitrodaze]

I guess, the commercial aspect need a four time world champion than a hard grafter.

[GH1987]

Two teams into one is better for the owner since it's cheaper and more effective to concentrate on one. Even if they've got so much money, it doesn't mean it's all to spend :p

[Nitrodaze]

It is possible that Perez head to Redbull which would be a promotion over all.

[F1nKS]

It is possible that Perez head to Redbull which would be a promotion over all.

I think that would be a great move. Move Albon to AlphaTaura so he could get more experience and grow and race directly against Gasly. Unless Red Bull is playing really close to the vest, it doesn't see to be the path they are pursuing and they seem to be doubling down on Albon.

It seems there are really two options and depends on where Hulkenburg shows up at.

Alfa Romeo or Haas (paired with one of the new Ferrari drivers)

[gm99]

It is possible that Perez head to Redbull which would be a promotion over all.

I think that's highly unlikely. The last driver they recruited without any previous history with Red Bull was Webber. RBR giving a drive to Pérez would also mean letting go either Albon, Gasly or Kvyat and not repromoting race-winner Gasly to a RBR seat.

[The Black Knight]

I see Otmar said Lance deserves a seat beside Vettel. Hilarious- Lance remains unworthy of a F1 seat. Regardless of what he does Nico Hulkenberg out qualified him. He should have been kicked out of the team for that alone. Daddy’s boy got what Daddy wanted.

[Nitrodaze]

I see Otmar said Lance deserves a seat beside Vettel. Hilarious- Lance remains unworthy of a F1 seat. Regardless of what he does Nico Hulkenberg out qualified him. He should have been kicked out of the team for that alone. Daddy’s boy got what Daddy wanted.

Otmar has to kiss the arse of the new boss. The quickest way out of a job is to say the opposite. That said, l am kind of glad for Vettel. It would be interesting to see how Aston Martin measures up to the demands of a four time world champion. As Vettels expectations are quite high, Aston Martin would need to step up in every department to reach to level that Vettel is used to. Which is a very good thing for Aston Martin, as they would be pushed up a level or two in the efficiency of their operations as a consequence.

The real question is can they hang on to Vettel? Can they give him the car he needs to get in the mix of the sharp end of the grid? With the new regulations coming, one would expect Aston Martin to be right up there with the big teams.

[Nitrodaze]

How many of us think Perez was fairly treated by Racing Point? Loyalty and dedication is rarely rewarded in the heady business world of F1. Even when his performance is as good as they can expect.

[zako85]

How many of us think Perez was fairly treated by Racing Point? Loyalty and dedication is rarely rewarded in the heady business world of F1. Even when his performance is as good as they can expect.

What's the point of asking this question? Remember Buemi and Alguersuari?

https://i2.wp.com/thejudge13.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/texashelmetmass.jpg (https://thejudge13.com/2013/12/14/on-this-day-in-f1-the-toro-rosso-chainsaw-massacre/)

[The Black Knight]

What's the point of asking this question? Remember Buemi and Alguersuari?

https://i2.wp.com/thejudge13.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/texashelmetmass.jpg (https://thejudge13.com/2013/12/14/on-this-day-in-f1-the-toro-rosso-chainsaw-massacre/)

Neither Buemi or Alguesari were spectacular to be fair.

[Nitrodaze]

What's the point of asking this question? Remember Buemi and Alguersuari?

https://i2.wp.com/thejudge13.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/texashelmetmass.jpg (https://thejudge13.com/2013/12/14/on-this-day-in-f1-the-toro-rosso-chainsaw-massacre/)

For drivers, F1 is an unforgiving affair.

[Nitrodaze]

The 2020 season is the last time that this team that has changed hand many times would be called Racing Point. Lets glance back for a moment.

1991 - 2005 Jordan Grand Prix Team { Best finish:3rd in constructors 1999, 4 race wins. Most famous driver - Micheal Schumacher}
2005 - 2006 Midland F1 Team [Nil Points }
2006 - 2007 Spyker F1 Team { 1 point}
2008 - 2017 Force India F1 Team { Best finish : 4th in Constructors (2x), 6 podiums, 1 pole }
2018 - 2020 Racing Point F1 Team ( Best finish : 4th in Constructors, 1 race win, 4 podiums, 1 pole}
2021 - Aston Martin F1 Team {Most famous Driver - Sebastien Vettel}

For a team with a tight budget, not bad really.

[F1nKS]

It will be interesting to see how they do in this next "phase" of life. I like Seb, so I will be kind of rooting for them.

[Nitrodaze]

I think that's highly unlikely. The last driver they recruited without any previous history with Red Bull was Webber. RBR giving a drive to Pérez would also mean letting go either Albon, Gasly or Kvyat and not repromoting race-winner Gasly to a RBR seat.

As it goes, anything is possible in F1.

[Nitrodaze]

It will be interesting to see how they do in this next "phase" of life. I like Seb, so I will be kind of rooting for them.

Racing Point has clearly been the most successfull rendition of this team. All indications suggests that they are likely to get even better under Aston Martin. It would be a great environment for Sebastien to reinvent himself and re-establish himself as the sort of front running driver we know he can be.

But l think they have a lot of improvements to do on the operational front to be efficient enough to compete effectively with the teams at the sharp end of the grid.

[gm99]

Aston Martin starts to remind me of Jaguar Racing back in the day. Both did well under their previous name (Stewart/Racing Point) in the preceeding season, even scoring a surprise win (Herbert/Perez). Both got their new number one driver from Ferrari (Irvine/Vettel) and both had a dismal start to the new season.
It almost seems like the green livery in itself is slowing the cars down :p

[Jag_Warrior]

Aston Martin starts to remind me of Jaguar Racing back in the day. Both did well under their previous name (Stewart/Racing Point) in the preceeding season, even scoring a surprise win (Herbert/Perez). Both got their new number one driver from Ferrari (Irvine/Vettel) and both had a dismal start to the new season.
It almost seems like the green livery in itself is slowing the cars down :p

Isn't there an old superstition that green cars are jinxed? :D

I was/am a HUGE Jaguar fan and loved Irvine's helmet design (look to the left :)) when he was there. I think the biggest difference between Jag and Aston is that Jaguar was so severely mismanaged by the bean counters at Ford that it wasn't funny - well actually, it was kinda funny to watch that clown show. Aston seems to be a very well run operation, although with the low rake car this year, I expect that they'll have an uphill fight on their hands for 2021. 2022 may be a different story. But i question whether or not Vettel will be in the AM in 2022. Things are not looking good for him. Hope he can turn it around.

[gm99]

Isn't there an old superstition that green cars are jinxed? :D


I seem to recall Mario Andretti was very superstitious in that regard; he wouldn't even sign autographs with a green pen :)
Then of course he ran Tony Kanaan's Andretti Green car, carrying a green 7-11 livery, in practice for the 2003 Indy 500 and promptly crashed it in the most frightening way. I don't think he's driven a race car in anger since.

[Nitrodaze]

And here it is!