No more party mode in qualifying

[N4D13]

The FIA have announced their intention to ban engines' party modes in qualifying starting at the Spa race:

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2020/08/13/fia-set-to-ban-qualifying-engine-modes-from-belgian-gp/

[Nitrodaze]

The FIA have announced their intention to ban engines' party modes in qualifying starting at the Spa race:

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2020/08/13/fia-set-to-ban-qualifying-engine-modes-from-belgian-gp/

I just heard that on Sky. I think it is another poor reaction by the FIA. I think equalizing it is a better way to go about it than banning it. If everybody has the same party mode for their engine then what is the problem. Of course, faster engines like the Mercedes, would have an additional edge which they would have anyway. So how are they going to police this one. Are they heading towards capping max speed to what was shown in free practice?

[N. Jones]

It seems to only be in place to slow Mercedes. This is not a great idea.

[SteveF1]

Quite frankly anything that slows the Mercs down is a good idea in my book. I suggested they welded a three ton anchor to the back of the cars but the FIA didn't agree ;)

of course there's no guarantee it will work or not backfired.

[Jag_Warrior]

Whenever the FIA institutes a knee-jerk solution that's meant to squelch engineering innovations, I always cheer for it to backfire.

I believe that it was Martin Brundle who reported that Mercedes didn't use the party mode in Spain. If that's true, I'm looking for the Mercs to be that much stronger on race pace going forward.

[Whyzars]

Whenever the FIA institutes a knee-jerk solution that's meant to squelch engineering innovations, I always cheer for it to backfire.

I believe that it was Martin Brundle who reported that Mercedes didn't use the party mode in Spain. If that's true, I'm looking for the Mercs to be that much stronger on race pace going forward.

The heads running F1 might know that F1 is supposed to be full party mode for the entire bloody race. Maybe there is a message to Mercedes that their "party mode" talk is making a mockery of F1 and that their "dominance" is becoming uncomfortable.

Ferrari and Red Bull only hope of regularly seeing the top of the podium is for them to run Mercedes kit and fly a white flag. In todays field, simply finishing on the lead lap is an accomplishment.

Records are falling like leaves in Autumn but are they earned in a field of two?.

Texted my brother to let him know F1 qualifying was on - his reply - "Why bother?".

No more party mode is progress, welding a three ton anchor on the back of the cars has merit...

[denkimi]

Whenever the FIA institutes a knee-jerk solution that's meant to squelch engineering innovations, I always cheer for it to backfire.

I believe that it was Martin Brundle who reported that Mercedes didn't use the party mode in Spain. If that's true, I'm looking for the Mercs to be that much stronger on race pace going forward.
In spain they were just as fast in the race as in qualifying. Except for Verstappen, they are a second and more faster per lap than everyone.

[Jag_Warrior]

The heads running F1 might know that F1 is supposed to be full party mode for the entire bloody race. Maybe there is a message to Mercedes that their "party mode" talk is making a mockery of F1 and that their "dominance" is becoming uncomfortable.

Ferrari and Red Bull only hope of regularly seeing the top of the podium is for them to run Mercedes kit and fly a white flag. In todays field, simply finishing on the lead lap is an accomplishment.

Records are falling like leaves in Autumn but are they earned in a field of two?.

Texted my brother to let him know F1 qualifying was on - his reply - "Why bother?".

No more party mode is progress, welding a three ton anchor on the back of the cars has merit...

F1 has always had periods of constructor and driver dominance. In 1988, McLaren won 15 of 16 races and Senna captured 13 of 16 pole positions with the dominant MP4/4. Williams had their day in the sun and so did Ferrari during the Schumacher years (complete with bespoke Bridgestone tires for the Ferrari). Look at what Vettel was able to do 4 years running with Newey's Red Bull cars, but hasn't been able to repeat since. Because that's how it's always been in F1, I guess it just doesn't bother me like it does some people. CART was a series where there tended to be tighter competition up front, but even then and there, certain teams would sometimes dominate a season or two. If I wanted to watch constant toss-ups for wins and podiums (while I admit that would be desirable), I'd watch the current Indycar series, F2, F3 or Japanese Super Formula - which are all good and exciting series. But they're spec series and not F1 - and that's just my thing (warts and all).

Like Le Mans (which Audi and other VAG brands dominated for years on end), part of my fascination with F1 is because of the competition in seeing who can build a better mouse trap. Had Ferrari done it honest, and not cheated, they could probably have at least one of their cars up front now. And if Honda hadn't missed a BIG step while they were developing their first hybrid PU iteration, they'd probably have been up front before now too. Renault? I don't know what to say about them. Even with that cheater Ferrari engine in the back of their cars, they'd probably still find a way to foul themselves up.

IMO, the kids who study and work the hardest deserve the A grades that they get. If the other kids don't do their homework and fail, that's their fault. I just don't care for changing the rules midseason to get a desired result (or prevent an undesirable result), Balance of Performance rules or the "everyone gets a trophy" mindset that we have now days. I understand your point, but it's not how F1 works... or has ever worked.

Cheers.:wave:

[Jag_Warrior]

So how are they going to police this one. Are they heading towards capping max speed to what was shown in free practice?

I realize your post was made before many details came out. But from what I've read so far, it seems that it's going to be reliant on policing the engine maps. All the engine manufacturers are having to submit engine maps to the FIA. If they wanted to, Mercedes could run party mode throughout the weekend. But then they'd destroy their engines in short order.

Toto and the braintrust in Brixworth seem to be looking at ways to find an engine mode that works for qualifying and the races. Less in qualifying (which stresses the engine less) and more in the race. Because Merc was so focused on matching/beating the Ferrari cheater PU, I figure they have more than enough in their pocket to deal with this, and possibly put the spank on in races even more than they do now. Even if I wasn't cheering for Hamilton in the Merc, I'd find that ironic and amusing.

The FIA = putting the Fix In Again.

[Nitrodaze]

I realize your post was made before many details came out. But from what I've read so far, it seems that it's going to be reliant on policing the engine maps. All the engine manufacturers are having to submit engine maps to the FIA. If they wanted to, Mercedes could run party mode throughout the weekend. But then they'd destroy their engines in short order.

Toto and the braintrust in Brixworth seem to be looking at ways to find an engine mode that works for qualifying and the races. Less in qualifying (which stresses the engine less) and more in the race. Because Merc was so focused on matching/beating the Ferrari cheater PU, I figure they have more than enough in their pocket to deal with this, and possibly put the spank on in races even more than they do now. Even if I wasn't cheering for Hamilton in the Merc, I'd find that ironic and amusing.

The FIA = putting the Fix In Again.

Thanks for clarifying that one. Under normal circumstances, l can imagine that all engines on the grid use a variety of engine mapping for different state of the racing occassion. From rain mapping, slow running mapping, normal racing mapping etc. I am thinking that there is a number of mappings in use under normal racing conditions and quali 3 mappings are just other additional mappings. If my guess is right, then it would be tricky to police this.

However, if thde move is to have only one mapping, then it could be tricky also for the Ferrari and Honda. Hence, the gap might increase or remain the same in the process.

The FIA = F*ck It Always

[Whyzars]

F1 has always had periods of constructor and driver dominance. In 1988, McLaren won 15 of 16 races and Senna captured 13 of 16 pole positions with the dominant MP4/4. Williams had their day in the sun and so did Ferrari during the Schumacher years (complete with bespoke Bridgestone tires for the Ferrari). Look at what Vettel was able to do 4 years running with Newey's Red Bull cars, but hasn't been able to repeat since...
...
IMO, the kids who study and work the hardest deserve the A grades that they get. If the other kids don't do their homework and fail, that's their fault. I just don't care for changing the rules midseason to get a desired result (or prevent an undesirable result), Balance of Performance rules or the "everyone gets a trophy" mindset that we have now days. I understand your point, but it's not how F1 works... or has ever worked.

Cheers.:wave:

I like the burn that Ferrari and Schumacher still inflicts on some long suffering folks. :D

I remember every single one of those dominant years you list.

All of the periods of "dominance" had limits and Mercedes is now arguably at theirs. A minor/major change in spec coupled with aggressive and expensive development to wrest control from the dominant team has always been the way - 2021 and beyond does not have that and F1 has discouraged that for many years. How do the smart kids you refer to get on the paddock if the paddock is locked until next year or the year after?

In trying to win over those who would never cheer their efforts, F1 has painted itself into a corner with seemingly nowhere to go. Do they go to 4 cylinders with even less fuel and solar panel wings?

Mercedes have produced a staggeringly good vehicle but if they take to boasting then I am not surprised they have been called out.

Hamilton is one of only a handful talented enough to drive the beast without kicking up even a spec of dust. He has been superb. The only enforceable change to the rules that I see is for Mercedes be forced to hire grossly overweight slow drivers. That is realistically the only way that the field are going to bridge the gap in the foreseeable future.

Either that or start welding that anchor...

[Nitrodaze]

I like the burn that Ferrari and Schumacher still inflicts on some long suffering folks. :D

I remember every single one of those dominant years you list.

All of the periods of "dominance" had limits and Mercedes is now arguably at theirs. A minor/major change in spec coupled with aggressive and expensive development to wrest control from the dominant team has always been the way - 2021 and beyond does not have that and F1 has discouraged that for many years. How do the smart kids you refer to get on the paddock if the paddock is locked until next year or the year after?

In trying to win over those who would never cheer their efforts, F1 has painted itself into a corner with seemingly nowhere to go. Do they go to 4 cylinders with even less fuel and solar panel wings?

Mercedes have produced a staggeringly good vehicle but if they take to boasting then I am not surprised they have been called out.

Hamilton is one of only a handful talented enough to drive the beast without kicking up even a spec of dust. He has been superb. The only enforceable change to the rules that I see is for Mercedes be forced to hire grossly overweight slow drivers. That is realistically the only way that the field are going to bridge the gap in the foreseeable future.

Either that or start welding that anchor...

The F1 anchor is on the Racing Point at the moment.

[Jag_Warrior]

How do the smart kids you refer to get on the paddock if the paddock is locked until next year or the year after?

Seems like most of the the smartest kids are working at Brixworth and Brackley these days. :vader:

Jokes aside, with Racing Point/Aston, Williams and soon McLaren also sharing the dominant Merc PU, but without having the benefit of the dominant Merc chassis (RP aside ;)), I think that the FIA's piddling is going to affect the midfield more than the sharp end of the field. But we'll see. What to do about the smaller teams that are saddled with the now emasculated (cheater) Ferrari PU? Not sure. How to prop up the on again-off again, rudderless Renault team? Not sure. At best, this move *might* give some juice to Red Bull (I mean Team Verstappen :D) to occasionally challenge Hamilton in the Merc.

I see your point. And I like good competition too. But if other teams can't bring the fire, I say that's on them. Sounds like you've been around for awhile too. So when has the FIA (whether under Balestre, Mosley or Todt) ever hit a bullseye? Like a broken clock, they've typically been right twice a day... on a good day. I feel your pain and frustration though. I've hated this sputtering, hybrid, "Greta Thunberg", PeeU formula since Day 1. Me, I wanted screaming, high pitched V8s (or like Vettel, V12s) that make your ears bleed when they whiz by. But I'm prepared to let this formula run its course... just as I feel people are going to have to do with the Merc team's dominance. As for Lewis, I look for him to retire if he gets #8. Short of a catastrophe, I think that #7 is pretty much a given right now.

[rodrigo44]

I agree. surely it will make F1 less interesting? I think it will lead to fewer overtakes in the races but i hope im wrong... anyway i dont like attempts to hamper one team

[Jag_Warrior]

I agree. surely it will make F1 less interesting? I think it will lead to fewer overtakes in the races but i hope im wrong... anyway i dont like attempts to hamper one team

Agreed. And certainly not mid-season.

[zako85]

Another step on the way of turning F1 into spec racing series. First time in a long time, we're being told that using a different engine tune between qualifying and race is almost evil or borderline cheating. Is there really ANY logic to this decision other than desperately trying to disrupt the Mercedes dominance by any means possible? The next step will be mandating an identical engine map for ALL engines for ALL weekends during the season, just because (they have no clue what else to do).

These folks at FIA are not very smart, aren't they? They are probably among the same people who came up with the incredibly dumb groupthink idea that engine development should be severely constrained and frozen from 2014 on, immediately locking the Mercedes engine advantage for years to come. Now they're frantically working to undo some of that damage. We're probably not far away from reverse grids and similar gimmicks.

[Jag_Warrior]

We're probably not far away from reverse grids and similar gimmicks.


Last I heard, the reverse grid gimmick was still on the table for '22. :sailor:



Another step on the way of turning F1 into spec racing series.

Alonso once complained about having a GP2 engine in his McLaren. Who knows... he may get to drive an F1/GP2 car before his time is done. :D

[Jag_Warrior]

Hamilton sets fastest lap in F1 history to take Monza pole (https://oklahoman.com/article/feed/10092394/bottas-tops-final-practice-ahead-of-qualifying-at-italian-gp?ocid=uxbndlbing)


Bottas: Not sure how happy Red Bull is now
(https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/09/05/bottas-not-sure-how-happy-red-bull-is-now/)


Swing and a miss, FIA (Fixing It Again).

https://www.grandprix247.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-Italian-Grand-Prix-Monza-Qualiyfing.jpg

[Storm]

Whenever the FIA institutes a knee-jerk solution that's meant to squelch engineering innovations, I always cheer for it to backfire.

..

well just wait for the reverse grid sprint race instead of qually nonsense that is being talked about now...

[N4D13]

Regarding all the reverse grid qualifying stuff and so on, it's worth to mention that aside from the very slow Alfas dropping down the field, there were no overtakes at all among the top 6 drivers between the lap after the restart and the end of the race. So maybe it's not such a good idea after all?

[gm99]

Regarding all the reverse grid qualifying stuff and so on, it's worth to mention that aside from the very slow Alfas dropping down the field, there were no overtakes at all among the top 6 drivers between the lap after the restart and the end of the race. So maybe it's not such a good idea after all?

I don't remember exactly, but didn't Sainz get past Stroll? Was that on the lap of the restart?

[truefan72]

I don't remember exactly, but didn't Sainz get past Stroll? Was that on the lap of the restart?

Yeah, Stroll had a terrible restart and i beleive dropped 2 places before recovering to p3

[truefan72]

Regarding all the reverse grid qualifying stuff and so on, it's worth to mention that aside from the very slow Alfas dropping down the field, there were no overtakes at all among the top 6 drivers between the lap after the restart and the end of the race. So maybe it's not such a good idea after all?

agreed. There is too much on the line for teams to accept a reverse grid start and its foolish.
I don't even like it in F2.

[The Black Knight]

There should be a new rule that anyone in the F1 circle mentioning reverse grids now or into the future should have their paddock pass revoked permanently and never allowed near a F1 race again. Would sort out this stupid idea once and for all.