Silverstone - 70th Anniversary GP

[Nitrodaze]

https://www.carsuk.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Silverstone-New-F1-Circuit.jpg

https://cdn.archilovers.com/projects/c_383_f34dcff8affc4a0ab42e57e3fa9e77d7.jpghttps://www.themotoringdiary.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Silverstone.jpg

Petronas Mercedes were in a class of their own last weekend on this track. Chances are they would still be untouchable this weekend. The talk this weekend shall be about tyres as F-Zero and F1 go racing with softer tyres than the ones that failed in the last race. Chance are there would be two or more stops this sunday as confidence for the Pirelli tyres drop to a low.

Perez has completed his quarantine and may join the grid this weekend. I would expect he walks around in a bubble of his own for a time. Shame Hulkenburg missed his chance to go racing in the Racing Point.

Bottas has to win this race to redress the points lost in the last race and put some distance between himself and Verstapenn. Racing Point need to find their form this weekend with Perez back to duties. Albon need a good weekend to kill the rot he has been in since Hungary.

Pirelli needs a drama free weekend as well, as tyre criticisms mount.

[Nitrodaze]

The Racing Point punishment does not make any sense at all. It just seem like they are being punished to satisfy Renault. The reasons given doesn't make sense either. Plus they are allowed to continue racing the parts in question as well. What is that about?

I can see why Toto thinks it is BS.

[Nitrodaze]

Renault seem to be on a surge forward on performance. Alonso in that car would be great to watch if they can carry this progression through to 2021.

[Nitrodaze]

What an effort by Hulkenburg! Bottas had the bit between his teeth this weekend. What a lap?

Redbull shown the hard reality of their situation. I bet they would be jumping up and down about the steward's decision about the racing point. Stroll was made to look ordinary by a very awesome drive by the Hulk. What a driver? He belongs on the grid l feel.

[truefan72]

Well done Nico and Gasly. Good job by Bottas. Can’t complain about a p2 for Hamilton. Stroll getting exposed. Also I’m so not interested in the pathetic appeals from the teams against Racing point.even the ruling was stupid. I really do hate these shenanigans. Do they want to run with 18 cars?. It’s more hurt feelings than anything and it looks bad for the sport. Very pathetic imo

[truefan72]

What an effort by Hulkenburg! Bottas had the bit between his teeth this weekend. What a lap?

Redbull shown the hard reality of their situation. I bet they would be jumping up and down about the steward's decision about the racing point. Stroll was made to look ordinary by a very awesome drive by the Hulk. What a driver? He belongs on the grid l feel.

Completely agree!
Perez will regret going to Mexico unnecessarily
Hulk probably secured a seat at Haas and Perez will join Sauber.

[Tazio]

I am very impressed with Hulk. He stepped up and did the business, smashing Stroll convincingly! :eek:

[Jag_Warrior]

Hats off to Bottas. After last week's nightmare, even as a Hammy fan, I think he deserved a break. But Lewis, win the race!

Mighty impressed by Hulkenberg. Never could understand why he didn't land at Haas this year - at the very least. Also impressed by Russell.

But on the downside, I feel sorry for both Raikkonen and Vettel. Kimi (IMO) should retire at he end of the season. Seeing a former WDC being the caboose of the field and being beaten by his half talented teammate is to much to bear. Vettel? I just don't know. I can only guess that he's demoralized and is struggling for motivation. Hopefully the Aston deal will work out and he can find himself again. As for Perez, hoping to see him at either Alfa Romeo or Haas (partnering Hulk would be just fine by me).

[journeyman racer]

I'm not sure how to interpret Bottas' radio celebrations?

Considering how MB is slanted towards Hamilton, there seems no point in celebrating anything til he's won the race.

[N4D13]

Looking forward here to the Hülk getting his first podium, only for the Tracing Points to be disqualified afterwards. Now wouldn't that be awesome.

[Nitrodaze]

Looking forward here to the Hülk getting his first podium, only for the Tracing Points to be disqualified afterwards. Now wouldn't that be awesome.

A Hulkenburg podium this weekend would be quite special.

[Nitrodaze]

Hulkenburg versus Verstapenn would be spectacular off the line. It would be interesting to see how Bottas can keep Hamilton behind through turn one. Ricciado takes on Stroll and Gasly.

Gasly outshines Albon as the Brit finds the going tougher this weekend. All signs suggest Gasly would be heading back to Redbull at some point this or next season.

[Nitrodaze]

And we are off !!!

[truefan72]

Bottas shows the world why he is a #2 driver. Provided no resistance to max and then proceeds to fall back from max. Deserved to get passed by Hamilton. And it’s ridiculous to listen to the sky crew trying to blame the team for Bottas poor pace. Smh

[truefan72]

Also wtf was that pit stop for Hülkenberg? Smells fishy to me.

[denkimi]

Well that was unexpected.

[Nitrodaze]

This was a race where the Redbull strategist went head to Head with the Mercedes strategist and came out on top. How Mercedes loses this race with the fastest car on the grid suggest they are still weak on the strategy front. The Mercecdes strategist still has not worked out how to plan around the heat and the soft tyres.

Verstapenn delivers again above what the car can do.

[Nitrodaze]

Bottas shows the world why he is a #2 driver. Provided no resistance to max and then proceeds to fall back from max. Deserved to get passed by Hamilton. And it’s ridiculous to listen to the sky crew trying to blame the team for Bottas poor pace. Smh

They get quite irritating when they play devil's advocate like that. Bottas did not do what he needed to to do to win this race

[truefan72]

Congrats max. Well deserved. Good recovery and fastest lap by Hamilton. Great damage control. Poor from Bottas. Clearly the car is faster than the RBR (as Hamilton showed) on new tires and all Bottas did was fall back from max. No excuse. Smh
Excellent by Leclerc. Great one stop drive.
Superb p5 by Albon
Don’t understand that additional pit stop by racing point on Hülkenberg. Makes no sense at all. So no credit for stroll who had nothing for Hülkenberg.
Good job for ocon and Norris. Happy that kvyatt got p10. Ricciardo blew it for some decent points.

[truefan72]

This was as race where the Redbull strategist went head to Head with the Mercedes strategist and came out on top. How Mercedes loses this race with the fastest car on the grid suggest they are still weak on the strategy front. The Mercecdes strategist still has not worked out how to plan around the heat and the soft tyres.

Verstapenn delivers again above what the car can do.
Absolutely. First of all they had enough pace to have both cars qualify with the hards in Q2. And even had an opportunity to do that at the very end of Q2 but they bolted softs on instead. But RBR got it spot on and verstappen drove an incredible race as well so credit to them. Mercedes race strategy has been problematic often unable to do the obvious thing or not reacting properly. Their chief strategist is really not great. The only thing he can do is manage a clear 1-2 miles ahead. As soon as any kind of competitive challenge is introduced they fall apart. It’s a clear arrogance of thought. But I’m glad that things get spiced up a bit. Now Racing point on the other hand, once again completely botched their entire race strategy and should have finished in p4 and p5. Shambolic

[truefan72]

They get quite irritating when they play devil's advocate like that. Bottas did not do what he needed to to do to win this race
Exactly

[Nitrodaze]

Now Racing point on the other hand, once again completely botched their entire race strategy and should have finished in p4 and p5. Shambolic

Racing Point has the car to fight for third place in the constructors but lack the personnel with the experience of operating at this level. They just seem to lack the skill to maximize their opportunities.

On Hulkenburg pitting, if Stroll could finish on those tyres, l am sure Hulkenburg could have done the same. But that said, he is only a temporary driver, so it makes sense that the team would prevent him from taking points away from the full time driver. Objectively, any team boss would make a similar call. It makes sense to give Stroll every opportunity to compete with his rivals.

[Nitrodaze]

Albon proves what a great driver he is again. Awesome recovery. He was my star of the race with some awesome competitive overtakes and commanding pace through the midfield.

[truefan72]

Albon proves what a great driver he is again. Awesome recovery. He was my star of the race with some awesome competitive overtakes and commanding pace through the midfield.
Yeah both RBR drivers were the stars today. No question

[truefan72]

Racing Point has the car to fight for third place in the constructors but lack the personnel with the experience of operating at this level. They just seem to lack the skill to maximize their opportunities.

On Hulkenburg pitting, if Stroll could finish on those tyres, l am sure Hulkenburg could have done the same. But that said, he is only a temporary driver, so it makes sense that the team would prevent him from taking points away from the full time driver. Objectively, any team boss would make a similar call. It makes sense to give Stroll every opportunity to compete with his rivals.
Yup makes sense. But it was clear that Hülkenberg was the better driver which reflects poorly on Stroll. Did like what his father had to say about the teams and their ridiculous protests

[Nitrodaze]

Softer balloon tyres seem to have shifted the advantage towards RedBull. The RBR car appears to be kinder to the higher pressure tyres, Mercedes seem to be scratching their heads on the higher pressures. Tyres still seem to be a moving target for most teams.

[N. Jones]

Hulkenburg versus Verstapenn would be spectacular off the line. It would be interesting to see how Bottas can keep Hamilton behind through turn one. Ricciado takes on Stroll and Gasly.

Gasly outshines Albon as the Brit finds the going tougher this weekend. All signs suggest Gasly would be heading back to Redbull at some point this or next season.

I hope not as I don't think either of them are good enough for the seat. If it is true that Vettel is going to Aston Martin then I agree with planetf1.com and Perez should be signed with Red Bull.

[N. Jones]

Also wtf was that pit stop for Hülkenberg? Smells fishy to me.
They say his tires would not have finished the GP.

[N. Jones]

Congrats max. Well deserved. Good recovery and fastest lap by Hamilton. Great damage control. Poor from Bottas. Clearly the car is faster than the RBR (as Hamilton showed) on new tires and all Bottas did was fall back from max. No excuse. Smh
Excellent by Leclerc. Great one stop drive.
Superb p5 by Albon
Don’t understand that additional pit stop by racing point on Hülkenberg. Makes no sense at all. So no credit for stroll who had nothing for Hülkenberg.
Good job for ocon and Norris. Happy that kvyatt got p10. Ricciardo blew it for some decent points.

Hmm.. Not a good job by Albon. I know Max is very talented but Albon needs to be qualifying in P5 and pushing those Mercs when they have problems.

[Bagwan]

Racing Point has the car to fight for third place in the constructors but lack the personnel with the experience of operating at this level. They just seem to lack the skill to maximize their opportunities.

On Hulkenburg pitting, if Stroll could finish on those tyres, l am sure Hulkenburg could have done the same. But that said, he is only a temporary driver, so it makes sense that the team would prevent him from taking points away from the full time driver. Objectively, any team boss would make a similar call. It makes sense to give Stroll every opportunity to compete with his rivals.

Or , an alternative theory would be that the Hulk was worried about the vibrations he was feeling (which is what he said , by the way) , and Stroll wasn't .
Thus , pitting Nico would ensure he would finish .

But , that's just crazy .

[denkimi]

Albon proves what a great driver he is again. Awesome recovery. He was my star of the race with some awesome competitive overtakes and commanding pace through the midfield.
Albon has 36 points, Verstappen 77. Albon hasn't managed to get a podium in a car that has winning pace.

Albon only proves he is not fast enough for a top team. Even as a second driver, he has never been able to help verstappen. I wonder how long redbull will tolerate his lack of speed. I would not be suprised if he gets replaced by the end of the season.

Albon

Softer balloon tyres seem to have shifted the advantage towards RedBull. The RBR car appears to be kinder to the higher pressure tyres, Mercedes seem to be scratching their heads on the higher pressures. Tyres still seem to be a moving target for most teams.
I wonder if mercedes'es das system causes their tyre problems.

[Nitrodaze]

Hmm.. Not a good job by Albon. I know Max is very talented but Albon needs to be qualifying in P5 and pushing those Mercs when they have problems.

I think that is a fair expectation. But l also think RBR are focused on Verstapenn who is their number one driver. Drivers in Albon's position at Redbull have historically received a lesser service than the number one driver. This can be traced back to Webber and was evident with Ricciado. And frustrated Gasly who l think can be as quick as Verstapenn given the support. We are now seeing it with Albon.

Albon's plight cannot be solely attributed to Albon's abilities. I think he is better than we have seen in the previous three races. If we have to take everything into consideration, then we have to consider the level of support or quality of service he is receiving.

[Nitrodaze]

Or , an alternative theory would be that the Hulk was worried about the vibrations he was feeling (which is what he said , by the way) , and Stroll wasn't .
Thus , pitting Nico would ensure he would finish .

But , that's just crazy .

Hi Baggie. I agree with your alternative theory. Lance with more time in the Racing Point would probably know how to preserve the life of the tyres of this season better. Hence, it is fair to say that Hulkenburg probably did not manage his tyres as well as Lance did.

That said, l did not see any evidence that he was struggling with tyres or had bad blisters. His pace seemed strong and matching that of Lance behind when he was called in for a change of tyres.

[Nitrodaze]

I wonder if mercedes'es das system causes their tyre problems.

Now that is funny considering the main blisters afflicting both Mercedes were on their rear tyres. I wasn't aware the rear wheels had been DASSED as well.

[Nitrodaze]

I hope not as I don't think either of them are good enough for the seat. If it is true that Vettel is going to Aston Martin then I agree with planetf1.com and Perez should be signed with Red Bull.

Perez in the Redbull would be very interesting, assuming he gets the same level of service that Versatpenn gets. He certainly would push the Verstapenn envelop like Ricciado did. But l doubt it would happen.

[denkimi]

Now that is funny considering the main blisters afflicting both Mercedes were on their rear tyres. I wasn't aware the rear wheels had been DASSED as well.
Their rears blistered a bit, but that didn't slowed them down. The real problem seemed to be the wear of the left front. If they showed the stats, you could see the fronts at 10%, while the rears were at 30%.

The punctures last week were also at the front.

[Nitrodaze]

Their rears blistered a bit, but that didn't slowed them down. The real problem seemed to be the wear of the left front. If they showed the stats, you could see the fronts at 10%, while the rears were at 30%.

The punctures last week were also at the front.

The left front was due to the characteristics of the track and nothing to do with DAS. Sainz had front left tyre failure at the last race also and as far as l know, Mclaren do not have a DAS system on their cars.

[N. Jones]

I think my review of Albon needs a review. I'm re-watching the race and forgotten that he was the first to stop at lap seven. I think he finishes P5 and if so he does deserve accolades.

[zako85]

I wonder how long redbull will tolerate his lack of speed. I would not be suprised if he gets replaced by the end of the season.

I think it's pretty clear that Albon (and Gasly, and Kvyat) are not top team quality. For how long will they hang around? The Red Bull teams haven't hired anyone who isn't a graduate of their own junior program for more than a decade. Therefore, I think it depends on who Red Bull has right now in the pipeline of its junior racing program. I don't follow F2/F3, so I can't comment. All of these drivers I mentioned were RedBull's second choice. This team really wanted to retain Ricciardo. He made a bad decision to leave RBR.

[truefan72]

I think it's pretty clear that Albon (and Gasly, and Kvyat) are not top team quality. For how long will they hang around? The Red Bull teams haven't hired anyone who isn't a graduate of their own junior program for more than a decade. Therefore, I think it depends on who Red Bull has right now in the pipeline of its junior racing program. I don't follow F2/F3, so I can't comment. All of these drivers I mentioned were RedBull's second choice. This team really wanted to retain Ricciardo. He made a bad decision to leave RBR.

I would respectfully disagree. All 3 of those guys are worthy of top team seats. The problem is the RBR insane management style along with a myopic focus on verstappen only which means anyone coming in has to adapt to a car that is only setup for max and a team that treat the 2nd seat with disdain as soon as they think they have their “golden boy” add to that the insane and ridiculous pressure marko and Horner put on that driver and you have a toxic environment for anyone not named max (or vettel. And that’s why Mercedes keep winning the WCC. They provide 2 equal cars and an effort to allow each driver to flourish. They may get it wrong on strategy here and there but there is no questioning their driver philosophy in terms of giving each the space, tools and motivation they need to succeed

[denkimi]

I would respectfully disagree. All 3 of those guys are worthy of top team seats. The problem is the RBR insane management style along with a myopic focus on verstappen only which means anyone coming in has to adapt to a car that is only setup for max and a team that treat the 2nd seat with disdain as soon as they think they have their “golden boy” add to that the insane and ridiculous pressure marko and Horner put on that driver and you have a toxic environment for anyone not named max (or vettel. And that’s why Mercedes keep winning the WCC. They provide 2 equal cars and an effort to allow each driver to flourish. They may get it wrong on strategy here and there but there is no questioning their driver philosophy in terms of giving each the space, tools and motivation they need to succeed
And i disagree with that. Although it is clear that Verstappen is the number one driver, albon has the same just as fast car.

No new or young driver gets a car that is build or setup for them. They all come into a team that already has a more experienced driver who has already helped build the car.

But the true greats do not need that. Hamilton started next to alonso and nearly won the championship. Verstappen started next to ricciardo and won his first race in a redbull. Vettel started next to webber and beat him in his first season with redbull.

It's not about the team. It's not about the bosses opinion. As soon as a driver sits in the car it's just about him and driving fast.


Kvyat was just not good enough. Gasly was just not good enough. Albon is just not good enough. The only reason albon is still in that redbull is because they have no-one better. As soon as they find someone better he will be fired before the season is over. If he was just as fast he would also be a golden boy, but he is not.

[Bagwan]

" And that’s why Mercedes keep winning the WCC. They provide 2 equal cars and an effort to allow each driver to flourish. They may get it wrong on strategy here and there but there is no questioning their driver philosophy in terms of giving each the space, tools and motivation they need to succeed"

Not so sure about that .
Bottas wasn't so sure about that after the race , either .

[Nitrodaze]

" And that’s why Mercedes keep winning the WCC. They provide 2 equal cars and an effort to allow each driver to flourish. They may get it wrong on strategy here and there but there is no questioning their driver philosophy in terms of giving each the space, tools and motivation they need to succeed"

Not so sure about that .
Bottas wasn't so sure about that after the race , either .

I think Bottas gets a fair treatment at Mercedes. As far as last sunday goes, Bottas did not think on his feet to ensure he took charge of the decisions to ensure he won the race. He settled into the scheme of things and hoped the win would come to him.

I keep saying that the best drivers make their own luck. That is how Verstapenn won the race with the help of the tyres obviously. If Verstapenn just settled with what the RBR pits was telling him, chances are that Hamilton may have caught up with him with fresher tyres and stole the win from him.

Hamilton kept questioning the pitwall's decision and constantly negotiated for a better strategy. He eventually got the strategy that nearly won the race. You have to notice also that Mercedes did not ask Bottas to let Hamilton through. He was told he was allowed to fight but must be clean, even though it was apparent that asking Bottas to not fight Hamilton may have probably given Hamilton more time to catch Verstapenn.

I could see he was not happy with the outcome, but he cannot blame anyone for that. He did not take the initiative so he should blame himself l think.

[Nitrodaze]

And i disagree with that. Although it is clear that Verstappen is the number one driver, albon has the same just as fast car.

No new or young driver gets a car that is build or setup for them. They all come into a team that already has a more experienced driver who has already helped build the car.

But the true greats do not need that. Hamilton started next to alonso and nearly won the championship. Verstappen started next to ricciardo and won his first race in a redbull. Vettel started next to webber and beat him in his first season with redbull.

It's not about the team. It's not about the bosses opinion. As soon as a driver sits in the car it's just about him and driving fast.


Kvyat was just not good enough. Gasly was just not good enough. Albon is just not good enough. The only reason albon is still in that redbull is because they have no-one better. As soon as they find someone better he will be fired before the season is over. If he was just as fast he would also be a golden boy, but he is not.

Kyvat was just as fast as Ricciado. He certainly gave Ricciado a run for his money until he hit some bad patches where he started to crash alot. Gasly is a F2 champion. That may not mean much to you, but l assure you he is as fast as Verstapenn given the right car. Albon has shown he is one of the best overtaker among that class of rookies that came into F1 together. His first half season clearly indicate that RBR has a special talent in him. He would match Verstapenn given the support and service close to what Verstapenn is enjoying.

The truth is RBR is spoilt for choice. They have four great drivers in two teams and the envy of the whole paddock.

[N. Jones]

I would respectfully disagree. All 3 of those guys are worthy of top team seats. The problem is the RBR insane management style along with a myopic focus on verstappen only which means anyone coming in has to adapt to a car that is only setup for max and a team that treat the 2nd seat with disdain as soon as they think they have their “golden boy” add to that the insane and ridiculous pressure marko and Horner put on that driver and you have a toxic environment for anyone not named max (or vettel. And that’s why Mercedes keep winning the WCC. They provide 2 equal cars and an effort to allow each driver to flourish. They may get it wrong on strategy here and there but there is no questioning their driver philosophy in terms of giving each the space, tools and motivation they need to succeed

Have to disagree on one thing - not Horner and Marko, Marko only. That guy is an ******* and no business being in F1.

[gm99]

Gasly is a F2 champion. That may not mean much to you, but l assure you he is as fast as Verstapenn given the right car.

It doesn't really mean a lot. Jolyon Palmer was a GP2 champion, as were Maldonado and Grosjean, not to mention the likes of Valsecchi, Leimer and Pantano. Are they as fast as Verstapppen, too?
Gasly has so far shown occassional flashes of Speed (more so in the Alpha Tauri than the Red Bull), but nothing that would imply he is anywhere near Verstappen.

[Nitrodaze]

It doesn't really mean a lot. Jolyon Palmer was a GP2 champion, as were Maldonado and Grosjean, not to mention the likes of Valsecchi, Leimer and Pantano. Are they as fast as Verstapppen, too?
Gasly has so far shown occassional flashes of Speed (more so in the Alpha Tauri than the Red Bull), but nothing that would imply he is anywhere near Verstappen.

I am surprised you assumed these F2 and GP2 champions are not as fast as Verstapenn. You also neglect to mention Leclerc and Russell who are also F2 champions. Are you suggesting that these guys [Leclerc and Russel] are not as fast as Verstapenn also?

I think any of those champions in Verstapenns position would perform comparably. F1 is a very tough environment to nuture ones career. We have seen great speed from Grosjean while partnering Kimi at Lotus. His career has gone down a route where we are never going to see his true talent.

The key here for rookies entering the premier formula is getting a competitve drive in a top team that would invest their effort into nuturing their talent. Most of the guys that you mentioned with exception to Palmer, did not get that chance; Grosjean, Maldonando etc. Those that got the chance of the seat, did so as second fiddle to a sitting number one driver. A situation that would not allow them to quite flourish and show their true talent. This was the case for Gasly.

Some simply did not get the chance at all, as they did not get on the driver programmes of F1 teams; Leimar, Pantano, Nyck De Vries etc.

I think l should also mention that Hamilton is a GP2 Champion. So all of these guys are in very good company.

[truefan72]

I am surprised you assumed these F2 and GP2 champions are not as fast as Verstapenn. You also neglect to mention Leclerc and Russell who are also F2 champions. Are you suggesting that these guys [Leclerc and Russel] are not as fast as Verstapenn also?
and Hamilton and Rosberg

[Zico]

Gasly is a F2 champion. That may not mean much to you, but l assure you he is as fast as Verstapenn given the right car. Albon has shown he is one of the best overtaker among that class of rookies that came into F1 together. His first half season clearly indicate that RBR has a special talent in him. He would match Verstapenn given the support and service close to what Verstapenn is enjoying.


If Gasly is as fast as Verstappen... exactly why wasn't he as fast as Verstappen?
Is the car built purely for Verstappen style and the others cant drive it?... Or other things?


Sure, we saw a similar pattern with Vettels continuous dominance over Webber.. but that same dominance wasnt there with Ricciardo vs Verstappen . It was a heck of a lot closer compared to Verstappen vs Gasly.. & now also Albon.

[Nitrodaze]

If Gasly is as fast as Verstappen... exactly why wasn't he as fast as Verstappen?
Is the car built purely for Verstappen style and the others cant drive it?... Or other things?


Sure, we saw a similar pattern with Vettels continuous dominance over Webber.. but that same dominance wasnt there with Ricciardo vs Verstappen . It was a heck of a lot closer compared to Verstappen vs Gasly.. & now also Albon.

Ricciado vs Verstapenn is a different case. Verstapenn was promoted to replace Kyvat, thus joining the more experienced Ricciado. There was an initial gap while Verstapenn got to grips with the RBR car. Then there was a noticeable equalization of performance between Ricciado and Verstapenn which began to tilt the team support towards Verstapenn. From that moment on, Ricciado got very poor service and his performance dropped due to all manner of car setup related issues.

Ricciado left Redbull because it was clear to him that he may not get the same level of support or service that Verstapenn was getting. Hence, he was always going to struggle to put out his best performances with the car he was getting. He spent many races fighting from the depth of the middlefield and ending up in top 5 positions at the end of the race. Much like we are seeing with Albon. We can also see that Gasly in the Alpha Tauri is a different driver from the one that drove the Redbull.

The other side of the garage at redbull to Verstapenn, gets the crap mechanics. They cannot setup the car to the level of the Verstapenn side of the grid. They were asleep at Monaco and caused Ricciado to lose the race to Hamilton a few years back. So you cannot really judge the performance of any driver using that side of the garage fairly knowing these facts.

You have to look beyond the obvious buddy.

[Nitrodaze]

The other thing to bear in mind is that Gasly and Albon did not get the same level of preparation for the senior seat as Verstapenn did. Verstapenn got two full seasons 2014 and 2015 and half of 2016 before moving from Torro Rosso to Redbull. He was better prepared for senior team duties then anyone else after him from Torro Rosso/ Alpha Tauri.

Gasly got a half season 2017 and a full season 2018 at Torro Rosso before promotion to Redbull in 2019 where he spent half a season before being demoted back to Torro Rosso.

Albon barely settled into his surprise offer to join Torro Rosso, only half way through his rookie season he was promoted to the senior team to replace Gasly.

Both of these guys did not get a normal nuturing to prepare them for senior team duties. It was not surprising that they both found it difficult at some point.

[gm99]

I am surprised you assumed these F2 and GP2 champions are not as fast as Verstapenn. You also neglect to mention Leclerc and Russell who are also F2 champions. Are you suggesting that these guys [Leclerc and Russel] are not as fast as Verstapenn also?

I think any of those champions in Verstapenns position would perform comparably.

I really don't think Pantano, Palmer or Maldonado would have won the last Grand Prix driving a Red Bull Honda as their number one driver. Apparently, F1 team principals think the same, otherwise one of them would still be in F1.
What I'm trying to say is that winning F2/GP2 does not automatically make you a great F1 driver - some (Hamilton, Rosberg, Leclerc) are just more talented than others.

[The Black Knight]

Do we have a full list of all of Seb’s spins over the last three seasons? I’ve genuinely lost count but it must be well into its 20s at this stage. It’s no wonder Ferrari aren’t keeping him. I genuinely feel sorry for the guy but you cannot have that amount of unforced errors and expect to keep your seat at a team like Ferrari.

[Nitrodaze]

I really don't think Pantano, Palmer or Maldonado would have won the last Grand Prix driving a Red Bull Honda as their number one driver. Apparently, F1 team principals think the same, otherwise one of them would still be in F1.
What I'm trying to say is that winning F2/GP2 does not automatically make you a great F1 driver - some (Hamilton, Rosberg, Leclerc) are just more talented than others.

Wow!

You forget that Maldonado won the 2012 Spanish Grandprix for Williams.

[gm99]

Wow!

You forget that Maldonado won the 2012 Spanish Grandprix for Williams.

No, I didn't. I just don't think that makes him a great F1 driver. For that, I think you have to perform at top level consistently rather than just show occassional flashes of brilliance. Maldonado was brilliant in Spain that year, but that was about the only highlight of his five years in F1, where he was out-qualified by every team-mate he's had and only once (in 2012 owing to that victory in Spain) finished ahead of his team-mate in the drivers standings.
But I think we are probably drifting too far from the topic of the Anniversary GP here...

[Zico]

Ricciado vs Verstapenn is a different case. Verstapenn was promoted to replace Kyvat, thus joining the more experienced Ricciado. There was an initial gap while Verstapenn got to grips with the RBR car. Then there was a noticeable equalization of performance between Ricciado and Verstapenn which began to tilt the team support towards Verstapenn. From that moment on, Ricciado got very poor service and his performance dropped due to all manner of car setup related issues.

Ricciado left Redbull because it was clear to him that he may not get the same level of support or service that Verstapenn was getting. Hence, he was always going to struggle to put out his best performances with the car he was getting. He spent many races fighting from the depth of the middlefield and ending up in top 5 positions at the end of the race. Much like we are seeing with Albon. We can also see that Gasly in the Alpha Tauri is a different driver from the one that drove the Redbull.

The other side of the garage at redbull to Verstapenn, gets the crap mechanics. They cannot setup the car to the level of the Verstapenn side of the grid. They were asleep at Monaco and caused Ricciado to lose the race to Hamilton a few years back. So you cannot really judge the performance of any driver using that side of the garage fairly knowing these facts.

You have to look beyond the obvious buddy.


Yeah, thats exactly why I'm asking you, the person who is so convinced that Verstappen isn't any quicker than Gasly. That's actually quite amusing! :D

I agree that Red Bull do seem to support their No2's less than other teams but if they were both on the same level as Max, I'd still be expecting Gasly and Albon to be showing a lot more than what they have.

Saying that everyone who wins GP2 and other lower formulae's are somehow automatically on the same level? Your logic is non logical.



I think, that as a Hamilton fanboy, so far up his derrier, you either cant see the wood for the trees or more likely... feel threatened by just how good Max clearly is.. and wittingly or unwittingly try to denigrate him when you can. Some real insecure Freudian stuff going on right there... buddy.

[Nitrodaze]

I think, that as a Hamilton fanboy, so far up his derrier, you either cant see the wood for the trees or more likely... feel threatened by just how good Max clearly is.. and wittingly or unwittingly try to denigrate him when you can. Some real insecure Freudian stuff going on right there... buddy.

Zico, l am surprised you are resulting to abuse so easily here. I am not sure why you also call me a Hamilton Fanboy. I am equally surprised that you think l have something against Verstapenn.

I don't understand why you have written your post above, l find it very childish at best. Come on buddy, you are better than this.

[Nitrodaze]

Yeah, thats exactly why I'm asking you, the person who is so convinced that Verstappen isn't any quicker than Gasly. That's actually quite amusing! :D

I agree that Red Bull do seem to support their No2's less than other teams but if they were both on the same level as Max, I'd still be expecting Gasly and Albon to be showing a lot more than what they have.

Saying that everyone who wins GP2 and other lower formulae's are somehow automatically on the same level? Your logic is non logical.


My logic is simple, GP2 and current F2 is a tough junior series. The racing is super close and the ability to win is equally as tough. It is properly dog eat dog racing. To come through that on top is not an easy accomplishment. The calibre of those that win the title are usually very talented individuals. Not all of them convert their talent into a successful F1 career. But that is no reason to denigrade their accomplishment or their inherent talent.

Some juniors trive better than others in F1. This is evident when you look at Vettel and Diresta. Diresta was beating Vettel on occassion in F3 but their careers have gone in different directions in F1. Vettel has gone on to be a four time F1 world champion, Diresta has not even won one F1 title.

The same is the case between Verstapenn and Ocon. Ocon was beating Verstapenn on occassions in F3 and their relative F1 careers has gone down different paths. Verstapenn is driving for a top team capable of winning titles, Ocon is in the midfields fighting to keep his career on track.

[By the way, Ocon is as fast as Verstapenn. You can see that based on how he has performed against Ricciado this season]

My point was simple, juniors coming into F1 are finding it tough if they do not get into a team willing to invest into nurturing their talent with a view of giving them the best grounding to prepare them for a chance of fighting for the F1 title one day. The way Gasly and Albon has been rushed into the senior team has drasticaly reduced their period of nuturing. Albon is effectively in the very deep end and every race weekend, he must fight real hard to stay afloat or be kicked back to the junior team just as quickly as he came out of it. We could say Gasly has resumed his nurturing at Alpha Tauri, but the chance of him getting a Redbull drive is very uncertain. The chances are that his career is somewaht curtailed to the midfields.

It is uncertain if he would ever get the chance to fight for the F1 title in the future. But anything is possible in F1 so l keep my fingers cross for him. And this is the very reason why l think Mercedes are being very sensible about how they manage Russell's career development. 2021 is too early for his promotion to the senior team. Especially since Bottas is delivering a good job every weekend since 2019.

The fact that l have identified this difference between how Verstapenn has been nurtured for his place in the Redbull team and Gasly and Albon has been rushed through, does not imply that l think Verstapenn is not deserving of his seat at Redbull. On the contrary buddy, he is well deserving of his seat and has shown this time and time again why he is a very special driver.

The point is not about Verstapenn but about Gasly and Albon relative to Verstapenn. The fact stated above does not remove the fact that Verstapenn remains the bencemark for these guys.

[truefan72]

Ricciado vs Verstapenn is a different case. Verstapenn was promoted to replace Kyvat, thus joining the more experienced Ricciado. There was an initial gap while Verstapenn got to grips with the RBR car. Then there was a noticeable equalization of performance between Ricciado and Verstapenn which began to tilt the team support towards Verstapenn. From that moment on, Ricciado got very poor service and his performance dropped due to all manner of car setup related issues.

Ricciado left Redbull because it was clear to him that he may not get the same level of support or service that Verstapenn was getting. Hence, he was always going to struggle to put out his best performances with the car he was getting. He spent many races fighting from the depth of the middlefield and ending up in top 5 positions at the end of the race. Much like we are seeing with Albon. We can also see that Gasly in the Alpha Tauri is a different driver from the one that drove the Redbull.

The other side of the garage at redbull to Verstapenn, gets the crap mechanics. They cannot setup the car to the level of the Verstapenn side of the grid. They were asleep at Monaco and caused Ricciado to lose the race to Hamilton a few years back. So you cannot really judge the performance of any driver using that side of the garage fairly knowing these facts.

You have to look beyond the obvious buddy.

well said

[truefan72]

No, I didn't. I just don't think that makes him a great F1 driver. For that, I think you have to perform at top level consistently rather than just show occassional flashes of brilliance. Maldonado was brilliant in Spain that year, but that was about the only highlight of his five years in F1, where he was out-qualified by every team-mate he's had and only once (in 2012 owing to that victory in Spain) finished ahead of his team-mate in the drivers standings.
But I think we are probably drifting too far from the topic of the Anniversary GP here...

the point here is not if they are great F1 drivers (only time and opportunity will tell), only if, given equally machinery and emphasis from the team, if they would be able to produce decent results and the occasional win. The last time RBR had somewhat of equality was in the early years of the Webber/Vettel combo. Each were capable of winning the race and the cars were both well taken care of from a strategic and setup perspective. In a way they had the ideal set up with a semi autonomous approach to each side of the garage. They won wcc championships, in one year webber was on course to win the drivers championship before his korea disaster, and the WCC was firmly in the pocket throughout that tenure. Somewhere along the line they just decided to focus on one driver to the detriment of the other and then fully embrace that philosophy with Verstappen which is really an issue now. Gasly, Kvyatt, and Albon are very talented drivers. They decided to dismiss Sainz too who was/is just as good as Verstappen IMO and abandoned Riccardo half way through the 2018 season, despite him outscoring Verstappen and scoring race wins. Horner certainly carries blame for this, but the real culprit is probably Marko who pretty much is a Verstappen guy (as he was a vettel guy) and could care less about the 2nd seat. If not of the Hamilton incident, Albon would have won the first race in Austria ( i still maintain if he showed a bit more patience hew would have easily passed him on the start straight or the long straight after turn 1) The fact that they have had to change race engineers (probably because none of them listened to Albon, his needs or cared about his car) tells you that Horner knows the issue isn't Albon and probably finally realized they are losing points by not setting up 2 competitive cars. Once again for the umpteenth time, Albon has out-driven his car and circumstances and brought home decent points. I wonder what would happen if they provided him with the tools he needs...

[Zico]

Zico, l am surprised you are resulting to abuse so easily here. I am not sure why you also call me a Hamilton Fanboy. I am equally surprised that you think l have something against Verstapenn.

I don't understand why you have written your post above, l find it very childish at best. Come on buddy, you are better than this.

So I'm the abusive and childish one despite your own personal insults against me in that other thread.. and I should just have risen above it?

If you dont like it back maybe you shouldnt give it out... buddy.

[airshifter]

Well, RB and Max threw a wrench in the Merc plan, and it worked. Lewis charged hard at the end, but it was too late in the game to recover. In hindsight if they had used that strategy for Bottas he might have had a better shot at Max, with less time delta to make up before he could attack.

I have to admit, I thought Lewis was right for being as nervous as he was on those tires. They looked like crap.

This time there was something going on up front, not just through the midfield. I hope it stays that way and at least something is keeping the front of the field interesting.

[Nitrodaze]

So I'm the abusive and childish one despite your own personal insults against me in that other thread.. and I should just have risen above it?

If you dont like it back maybe you shouldnt give it out... buddy.

Ok l touched a nerve with you. I am not offended. I am happy to chat with you on all topics. I may disagree with you sometimes, that is the way it is right?