Austrlia GP Part 2

[N. Jones]

I know FP1 is over but this thread will cover everything.

[pantealex]

FP2 is also over

[airshifter]

It's weird having race weekends again. But I'm glad we have something to watch and I hope things keep switching up to keep us on our toes!

[Tazio]

Smokin' lap by the boss!

[truefan72]

Smokin' lap by the boss!

It was scintillating. In fact i was very pleased with the entire grid.
Russel P12
Ocon p5
Sainz P3
Norris p6 (but really p3!)
Gasly p8
It was a wonderful qualifying session. and exciting too.

On to the race

[N4D13]

It was scintillating. In fact i was very pleased with the entire grid.
Russel P12
Ocon p5
Sainz P3
Norris p6 (but really p3!)
Gasly p8
It was a wonderful qualifying session. and exciting too.

On to the race
Nope, Norris qualified P6 and will start P9.

I think people have been too excited about some drivers' performances this quali, such as Hamilton, Sainz and Ocon. Yes, it's obviously true that Hamilton pulled a very good lap, but I don't think the large difference to second place is because the lap is "stuff of the greats", but rather, because Verstappen and Bottas dropped the ball. Bottas in particular qualifying behind a McLaren is embarrassing, although I don't know if he was hindered by yellow flags.

On top of that, it's very noteworthy that P5 (Ocon) to P9 (Ricciardo) were separated by less than three tenths of a second. Sainz was the only midfield driver to get ahead of the rest of the group and it was "only" by .25 seconds, which is significant, but not massive on a wet track.

[truefan72]

Nope, Norris qualified P6 and will start P9.
Alright, Thx for the correction.
there was so much going on i missed that. i thought he did come in p3.
it was a thrilling qualifying session.

[truefan72]

I think people have been too excited about some drivers' performances this quali, such as Hamilton, Sainz and Ocon. Yes, it's obviously true that Hamilton pulled a very good lap, but I don't think the large difference to second place is because the lap is "stuff of the greats", but rather, because Verstappen and Bottas dropped the ball. Bottas in particular qualifying behind a McLaren is embarrassing, although I don't know if he was hindered by yellow flags.
I think even with verstappen not making the mistake, it looked like Hamilton would have beat him by about half a second. Remember he was still up by .587 through the first 2 sectors and only got quicker by the end. I believe Verstappen had a yellow middle sector too on that last attempt. But yeah, the 1.2s is a bit of flattery. Bottas on the other hand had nothing at the end. lol. The race is a different beast though. so who knows what will happen. If you told me at 2pm last sunday that a ferrari would be on the podium, I would have been skeptical. ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

Yeah, but not dropping the ball when others do is part of it, no? When you set a time that causes others to skate off the track when trying to match or beat it, in the very same conditions (not getting a lucky time in when the track dries for a bit, for example), is what has established certain drivers as true rainmeisters over the years. Senna certainly had that odd talent. Schumacher had it too. And as demonstrated time and time again, so does Lewis.

I enjoyed the heck out of that qualy. I'm glad that they were able to get it in and I'm glad that the rain mixed things up a good bit. Congrats to the other talents who put in some great laps in treacherous conditions too.

[N4D13]

Yeah, but not dropping the ball when others do is part of it, no? When you set a time that causes others to skate off the track when trying to match or beat it, in the very same conditions (not getting a lucky time in when the track dries for a bit, for example), is what has established certain drivers as true rainmeisters over the years. Senna certainly had that odd talent. Schumacher had it too. And as demonstrated time and time again, so does Lewis.
Indeed. My point is that I don't think this was a massive lap or a magical performance like his 2008 British GP. He just kept it together in the fastest car on the field, which is obviously more than his closest rivals managed to do.

[N. Jones]

Magical qualifying. Great drives by a lot of people. I am very surprised with Renault and Ferrari, for very different reasons of course! :D

[N4D13]

Since I was skeptical, I stand corrected. This is what Toto Wolff had to say about Lewis' lap:


Very rarely do you see performances that are just not from this world. When you look at the onboard of his lap, he was balancing the car on the edge, aquaplaning, throttle control was incredible.

[journeyman racer]

Since it's never happened before, it'll be interesting to see how drivers adjust to the same track when they're given another opportunity at the same track.

You'd presume the RB will last longer than last week. So with the MB and Verstappen effectively being in the same position as last week, it'll be interesting to note how much he could influence the outcome of the race.

Hamilton and Bottas have swapped positions from last week. Hamilton got himself in a position to threaten to win the race. You'd presume he's going to take the early lead of the race, so then it's up to Bottas to see if he can put similar pressure Hamilton did last week.

[N4D13]

F1 will use remote-controlled trollies (https://www.motorsportweek.com/2020/07/11/formula-1-to-use-remote-controlled-trollies-to-deliver-trophies-to-drivers/) to deliver trophies to the drivers on the podium.

Oh boy. Oh boy.

[Tazio]

Fettel!! Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry! :dork:

[gm99]

Ferrari donkeys of the week-end!

[N4D13]

I was thinking that this was an uncharacteristic mistake from Leclerc, but if memory serves me well, he's actually had a few during his Ferrari tenure. There's no question that he's mighty fast and a likeable character, but he's not bulletproof. Hopefully he'll become more consistent and able to match Hamilton and Verstappen.

[gm99]

Brilliant race by Perez so far. Albon on the other side is rather disappointing today, he can't match his team-mate's pace at all.

[N4D13]

Beautiful win by Hamilton - boring race, admittedly, but this is what you get when the fastest driver on the track starts from pole on the fastest car on the track.

Lovely race by Norris again - although I'm kinda gutted for Sainz because that fifth place was sort of earmarked for him, but the botched pitstop destroyed his race.

Shame about Pérez as well - lovely race, but screwed by a small mistake. Still managed to salvage a very decent sixth place.

And Albon... oh boy, Albon. It doesn't look very nice when you're so long behind your teammate that he can essentially get a free pitstop. At the same time, to be fair, the fact that he's doing a Gasly shows that Red Bull is pretty much a one-driver team and they only field a second car because the regs make them to - it's hard to imagine that someone would be so far behind their teammate otherwise.

[N4D13]

At the same time, I think today's race shows why Sainz was the right signing for Ferrari - he's got a lame pitstop and ended up losing track position as a result, so he just gives his teammate the benefit of two DRS zones and gets out of the way. Can anyone see that happening with Vettel instead? :p

[truefan72]

I was thinking that this was an uncharacteristic mistake from Leclerc, but if memory serves me well, he's actually had a few during his Ferrari tenure. There's no question that he's mighty fast and a likeable character, but he's not bulletproof. Hopefully he'll become more consistent and able to match Hamilton and Verstappen.

To his credit he was very honest and contrite in his statements to the media.
But that being said, you absolutely cannot send it like that on the first lap like that in heavy traffic.
The thing is, that Ferrari is probably better on race pace than qualy and probably vettel or leclerc or both would have finished in the top 10 easily and maybe even p4.
It was the worst possible outcome for Ferrari and nothing Vettel could do.

[truefan72]

Brilliant race by Perez so far. Albon on the other side is rather disappointing today, he can't match his team-mate's pace at all.

I wonder if Masi will be equally as stringent with Albon for a very similar incident to his frackas with Hamilton last week. This time, he being the one being overtaken.
We shall see. I doubt it. smh

[truefan72]

And Albon... oh boy, Albon. It doesn't look very nice when you're so long behind your teammate that he can essentially get a free pitstop. At the same time, to be fair, the fact that he's doing a Gasly shows that Red Bull is pretty much a one-driver team and they only field a second car because the regs make them to - it's hard to imagine that someone would be so far behind their teammate otherwise.
Yup. The car, is pretty much custom built to max specifications and I wonder how much say Albon actually has with setup etc. I cannot imagine he is that far adrift from his teammate unless they turned his engine down or some other kind of issue or strategic reason. A week ago he was on for the race win and now out of a sudden he can barely surpass the Racing point? I bet you verstappen (or marko) said something to remind them who's who at the team and this is what you get. Albon looked compromised today very inexplicably. Typical RBR stuff

[N4D13]

Then again, to be fair, last week Mercedes were having to nurse their car a lot more. This weekend it hasn't been like that because there haven't been safety car periods to erase their advantage, and you'd imagine that they've taken countermeasures to avoid a repeat of last week's problems. There's that, and there's also the fact that Albon was on softer tyres than the Mercedes, and that Verstappen wasn't there to provide a benchmark. When you take all of this into account, it's probably not such a big surprise that Albon's pace relative to the Mercedes has gone away.

[The Black Knight]

Then again, to be fair, last week Mercedes were having to nurse their car a lot more. This weekend it hasn't been like that because there haven't been safety car periods to erase their advantage, and you'd imagine that they've taken countermeasures to avoid a repeat of last week's problems. There's that, and there's also the fact that Albon was on softer tyres than the Mercedes, and that Verstappen wasn't there to provide a benchmark. When you take all of this into account, it's probably not such a big surprise that Albon's pace relative to the Mercedes has gone away.

I still doubt they had any issues last weekend. I think it was all smoke and mirrors. They wanted the 1-2 last weekend. When that was no longer possible they were easily able to increase their pace. They are just playing games.

Pretty dull race today- Norris is looking like a star. Albon must start getting closer to Verstappen soon. Lewis deserved winner. Nothing in this race will make me want to go back and watch it again.

[truefan72]

Two things bothered me about this race and the stewarding.
In reviewing the stroll ricciardo incident, it seems pretty obvious the stroll forced him off the track and given what happened last week I’m surprised they said “no further action” I guess your car has to be facing the other way or something for them to deem it punishable.

Also I’m surprised lecterc didn’t get any kind of penalty. Just because the person most adversely affected is your teammate doesn’t change the recklessness of the move. Furthermore it did affect the other cars around them in terms of potential damage and lost positions. I remember grosjean getting penalties for similar moves

[airshifter]

Lewis in control at the front from qually to race finish.

Except for that, everything got pretty wild.

Leclerc pulled a bonehead, but owned it the best he could. I'm sure his afternoon talk wasn't pleasant.

Bottas and Merc used a good strategy, and gave him enough time to make the pass. Max certainly didn't make it easy, and Bottas had to put in some work for it. Well done by both in the attack and the defense, and clean driving througout.

Great job by Perez right up until that contact. He got lucky on that and things worked out in the end... barely! It almost cost him much more dearly, and in my view he was the one at fault with Albon, but not a bad try.

As for Stroll, a mighty effort but I personally feel he should have been forced to give the position back. It appeared to me that he just widened up the turn to push Ric off. If not and his brakes were done, he still pushed Ric off, and didn't complete any proper pass on track. I think he probably would have not cleared that pass, and also got overtaken by Lando most likely.



But except for a couple smaller incidents and some no contact calls, I thought we saw a lot of really good wheel to wheel racing between a number of drivers, and the majority of it was really clean and fair. It spiced up the fact that Merc was in control up front, and made the race fun to watch to the very, very, very end.




Two things bothered me about this race and the stewarding.
In reviewing the stroll ricciardo incident, it seems pretty obvious the stroll forced him off the track and given what happened last week I’m surprised they said “no further action” I guess your car has to be facing the other way or something for them to deem it punishable.

Also I’m surprised lecterc didn’t get any kind of penalty. Just because the person most adversely affected is your teammate doesn’t change the recklessness of the move. Furthermore it did affect the other cars around them in terms of potential damage and lost positions. I remember grosjean getting penalties for similar moves

Regarding Stroll, I thought the same. He went four tires off, so either way it was a banzai move.

I'd also agree with the Leclerc move, or any contact between team mates that impacts the others around them. From the onboard on Kimi's car, he had to completely check up and probably lost 2-3 places at a minimum. Others might have been impacted less, but it still altered their races as well.

[Zico]

Decent race and some good individual performances.. but no real outstanding moments to write home about.

Almost faultless victory by Lewis.. back to top form, business as usual. Dissapointed but not at all surprised by his 'black power' salute on the podium. Racist twat sprung to mind but hey ho.

Real pity for Sainz with the McLaren pit stop error after putting in such a superb wet qualy performance but at least Norris benefitted from it and also produced a great performance of his own.

Good to see Racing point up there again but feeling that they didn't maximize and should probably have done better.

Calamity for Ferrari.. Binnoto refusing to blame Charles was a strange one but I guess they just want to keep his confidence up by not getting on his back.

[truefan72]

Decent race and some good individual performances.. but no real outstanding moments to write home about.

Almost faultless victory by Lewis.. back to top form, business as usual. Dissapointed but not at all surprised by his 'black power' salute on the podium. Racist twat sprung to mind but hey ho.

The irony of calling an anti-racism stand racist.
Educate yourself on the history of that salute and why it was there in the first place
then spend some time reading Ecclestone's racist comments in 2020 (which you seem to be aligning yourself with) before you come on here with such a comment.
SMH

[Zico]

The irony of calling an anti-racism stand racist.
Educate yourself on the history of that salute and why it was there in the first place
then spend some time reading Ecclestone's racist comments in 2020 (which you seem to be aligning yourself with) before you come on here with such a comment.
SMH

...or perhaps the irony of this particular so called anti racism stand being racist. You only have to look at the two words defining it to see it. Its no different from 'white power' when you strip back the dressed up BS... but whatever dude.

[The Black Knight]

...or perhaps the irony of this particular so called anti racism stand being racist. You only have to look at the two words defining it to see it. Its no different from 'white power' when you strip back the dressed up BS... but whatever dude.

All lives matter - anyone that cannot accept that is simply a racist.

[Zico]

All lives matter - anyone that cannot accept that is simply a racist.

I agree..

[denkimi]

The irony of calling an anti-racism stand racist.
Educate yourself on the history of that salute and why it was there in the first place
then spend some time reading Ecclestone's racist comments in 2020 (which you seem to be aligning yourself with) before you come on here with such a comment.
SMH
I can call the kkk an anti-racist organisation, but that doesn't make it true.
BLM is clearly racist and ecclestone said nothing but the truth.

I don't give crap what signs Hamilton makes, he could take a crap on the mercedes star for all i care. But if a white person would make a white power salute after winning a race he would never race again.


All lives matter - anyone that cannot accept that is simply a racist.
I'd go with no lives matter.

There's nearly 8 billion people on the planet, it would be better to lose some than to gain even more.

[donKey jote]

there we are then...
Quite a few donkeys in this thread, what? :-/

[N. Jones]

All lives do not matter until black lives matter.

[truefan72]

...or perhaps the irony of this particular so called anti racism stand being racist. You only have to look at the two words defining it to see it. Its no different from 'white power' when you strip back the dressed up BS... but whatever dude.

boy do you sound uneducated.
Like I said get a clue about the history of the fist and it's meaning before you make yourself sound even more ignorant.
Perhaps google 1968 olympics and understand it's origins. Instead of your own off-base assumptions.
It is amazing how some folks get triggered by the most innocuous and relevant things.
until then...no point in discussing it with you
cheers

[truefan72]

there we are then...
Quite a few donkeys in this thread, what? :-/

lol. I know
let's leave it at that

[Zico]

boy do you sound uneducated.
Like I said get a clue about the history of the fist and it's meaning before you make yourself sound even more ignorant.
Perhaps google 1968 olympics and understand it's origins. Instead of your own off-base assumptions.
It is amazing how some folks get triggered by the most innocuous and relevant things.
until then...no point in discussing it with you
cheers


I know all about it. So its what.. 'positive racism'? There is nothing positive about doing the black power salute on the podium at a sporting event and accusing F1 as a sport of being institutionaly racist. What happened to George Floyd was utterly wrong but to tar every white person or instituition with the same brush has all gone too far now.

Someone better explain to Hamilton that its more likely a case of black people typically gravitating towards more athletic sports where they most often excel, making Motorsport more of a predominantly white rich mans sport.
I dont believe that black engineers/mechanics/pitcrew are being refused jobs in Motorsport because of their skin colour.
In the 3 years I studied Aero engineering I didnt see one single black engineer or mechanic start studying anything Engineering related, period... so there is maybe a wee hint in there as to why the disparity in numbers exists in F1.


As I say... these are facts which I'm sure would be further verified if Tech college/Uni enrollments were looked into but dress it up however you like. I'm not triggered at all. You are the one hurling insults because you cant handle the notion that racism is a 2 way street. Jog on..

[The Black Knight]

I know all about it. So its what.. 'positive racism'? There is nothing positive about doing the black power salute on the podium at a sporting event and accusing F1 as a sport of being institutionaly racist. What happened to George Floyd was utterly wrong but to tar every white person or instituition with the same brush has all gone too far now.

Someone better explain to Hamilton that its more likely a case of black people typically gravitating towards more athletic sports where they most often excel, making Motorsport more of a predominantly white rich mans sport.
I dont believe that black engineers/mechanics/pitcrew are being refused jobs in Motorsport because of their skin colour.
In the 3 years I studied Aero engineering I didnt see one single black engineer or mechanic start studying anything Engineering related, period... so there is maybe a wee hint in there as to why the disparity in numbers exists in F1.


As I say... these are facts which I'm sure would be further verified if Tech college/Uni enrollments were looked into but dress it up however you like. I'm not triggered at all. You are the one hurling insults because you cant handle the notion that racism is a 2 way street. Jog on..

I also studied similar. Been an engineer for 20 years and, guess what? I haven’t even interviewed a black person (which I’d happily do) because they simply aren’t there to interview. Go figure.

[N4D13]

If only some of you could disagree on political views without getting personal.

[Big Ben]

I don't know if we really disagree on this issue. I think and hope everybody here is against racism. It's just the professionally offended keyboard warriors that go around looking to throw the racist label. This is how they make themselve feel better, lip service and labeling people, so they can feel morally superior without really doing anything.

[Nitrodaze]

I don't know if we really disagree on this issue. I think and hope everybody here is against racism. It's just the professionally offended keyboard warriors that go around looking to throw the racist label. This is how they make themselve feel better, lip service and labeling people, so they can feel morally superior without really doing anything.

Well, when you go on about calling yourself a rabid racist and making joke of a very important issue concerning black people, then you invite criticism. So don't be defensive when you act in a racist way and someone points that fact out to you.

[Nitrodaze]

All lives matter - anyone that cannot accept that is simply a racist.

Of course All Lives Matter. The 2nds World War has served the purpose of making that a fact. To say Black Lives Matter on an occassion where a white police officer kills a black man in cold blood in public view, is emphazing the fact that White Racism in enforcement organisations is depicting that Black Lives do not matter so they can kill them in plain sight and get away with it because they are wearing a uniform.

If you cannot see that, then l have a serious problem with your point of view. If the situation was different, say a white officer killing a white man in plain view, everyone would equally be enraged by it. It probably would not bring about a movement such as White Lives Matter. As firstly, this would be a very rare occurence. Secondly, the officer would be arrested for murder instantly. In the case of the incident that brought about the Black Lives Matter, it took weeks before the officer was arrested. And he probably would not have been arrested if people did not take to the streets to protest. There lies the difference which Black Lives Matter is trying to address.

Therefore, the Black Live Matter campaign is not suggesting that only Black Lives matter. It is simply saying, treat Black Live with the same significance as you would White Lives or any other lives for that matter.

To argue about White Lives Matter in the Face of a situation where a white police officer brutally suffocates an already subdued man pleading that he cannot breath, yet the officer uses his knee to continue to block his access to air in front of several mobiles phones recording the incident in this information age, is simply a demonstartion of the highest level of ignorance. And l personally would not stand for it.

ALL LIVES MATTER. We should stand up in defence of people regardless of colour, religion, sex, sexual orientation or nationality that is oppressed by any system of government anywhere in the world. Hence why, it is very disappointing that this is an American incident. American are typically the heros in these sort of issues.

[Nitrodaze]

All lives matter - anyone that cannot accept that is simply a racist.

ditto

[Bagwan]

My family is from Africa originally .
Back then , we hated those neanderthals , the Neanderthals .
They called us "Homos" .

This has been going on for a long time , kids .

Racism isn't funny , but I , personally , like to make fun of it .

And , I laughed out loud when I read Big Ben's post .
He was making fun of the gesture Lewis made , and the general feeling of self-importance he projects .
I got the joke .

Nobody openly bristled at my "black liveries matter" post .
Maybe everyone got the joke .

[Nitrodaze]

My family is from Africa originally .
Back then , we hated those neanderthals , the Neanderthals .
They called us "Homos" .

This has been going on for a long time , kids .

Racism isn't funny , but I , personally , like to make fun of it .

And , I laughed out loud when I read Big Ben's post .
He was making fun of the gesture Lewis made , and the general feeling of self-importance he projects .
I got the joke .

Nobody openly bristled at my "black liveries matter" post .
Maybe everyone got the joke .

I do have a sense of humour as the next guy. But there are some things that are so serious such that jokes about it becomes insulting. I also understand that it is disconcerting to be confronted with such a touchy subject such as racism. I know l would typically do my best to avoid discussing it in the first place. But this incident has made it unavoidably necessary to look to the issue of racism in this day and age dead on and try to understand how l facilitate it or condone it in my daily social interactions. It is ubiquitous and we have been socially engineered to behave in racist ways from our various perspective. Hence, it happens between any differences in social demographics. Within races, across races, between nations, across sexual orientations, from able bodied against the disabled, across religion and across skin complexion.

It has been the root of many useless wars of old. It has curtailed the growth of peoples across the globe. It has fired the bellies of terrorists. It has made us as humans to be less than we aspire to be even in the face of the briliant inventions and deeds that we do. It has made us small.

[Nitrodaze]

I say, Bottas is looking good for the championship, if he can keep his sh*t together. It was a great recovery and damage limitation in this second race. He needs to maintain the momentum as Hamilton comes to terms with Bottas's fine start to the season.

The fight for the title seem to be between the two Mercedes drivers. Assuming Mercedes do not have any unforseen car problems which would bring Redbull firmly back in the mix. I kind of like the idea of Verstapenn being in the mix and punishing either Mercedes driver when they are not on it. Great race, looking forward to Hungary now.

[Bagwan]

I do have a sense of humour as the next guy. But there are some things that are so serious such that jokes about it becomes insulting. I also understand that it is disconcerting to be confronted with such a touchy subject such as racism. I know l would typically do my best to avoid discussing it in the first place. But this incident has made it unavoidably necessary to look to the issue of racism in this day and age dead on and try to understand how l facilitate it or condone it in my daily social interactions. It is ubiquitous and we have been socially engineered to behave in racist ways from our various perspective. Hence, it happens between any differences in social demographics. Within races, across races, between nations, across sexual orientations, from able bodied against the disabled, across religion and across skin complexion.

It has been the root of many useless wars of old. It has curtailed the growth of peoples across the globe. It has fired the bellies of terrorists. It has made us as humans to be less than we aspire to be even in the face of the briliant inventions and deeds that we do. It has made us small.

Being hyper-sensitive doesn't help .

Laughing about how stupid it is does , as it at least let's us talk about it without it getting too angry .

Nobody wants to look stupid , so if society in general can laugh at them , maybe racists will see themselves in a different light .
The name "Archie Bunker" comes to mind .

As for the BLM movement in general , it's getting old .
By that , I mean that people are tiring of the message , even though it is that important .
It's now sounding like just endless complaints , and nobody , no matter how serious it is , can endure it endlessly .

My suggestion would be to laud diversity , by showing how important all members of the population really are , by showing what they do and have done .
Black heroes matter .
I imagine a guy like Lewis putting ideas in the heads of not only all the British youngsters , but specifically the non-white ones(or pink if you prefer) .

[Nitrodaze]

Being hyper-sensitive doesn't help .

Laughing about how stupid it is does , as it at least let's us talk about it without it getting too angry .

Nobody wants to look stupid , so if society in general can laugh at them , maybe racists will see themselves in a different light .
The name "Archie Bunker" comes to mind .

As for the BLM movement in general , it's getting old .
By that , I mean that people are tiring of the message , even though it is that important .
It's now sounding like just endless complaints , and nobody , no matter how serious it is , can endure it endlessly .

My suggestion would be to laud diversity , by showing how important all members of the population really are , by showing what they do and have done .
Black heroes matter .
I imagine a guy like Lewis putting ideas in the heads of not only all the British youngsters , but specifically the non-white ones(or pink if you prefer) .

Yours is a fair comment l admit. There are more than one way to deal with the issue. It is a scary subject, for it has many connotations. Hence, l can see how the sheer weight of it becomes unbearable after awhile. But it is important to keep the message going somehow so that this do not become a blip event and return to old ways. We must learn from it and be better to one another.

[Jag_Warrior]

I know all about it. So its what.. 'positive racism'? There is nothing positive about doing the black power salute on the podium at a sporting event and accusing F1 as a sport of being institutionaly racist. What happened to George Floyd was utterly wrong but to tar every white person or instituition with the same brush has all gone too far now.

Just as in all groups (political parties included), there are certainly radicalized or extremist elements within BLM (though it's not a centralized organization). But I wasn't aware that Hamilton had made any comments tarring all members of any race or group with the same brush. If you can point something out or provide a link, I'd like to read it.




Someone better explain to Hamilton that its more likely a case of black people typically gravitating towards more athletic sports where they most often excel, making Motorsport more of a predominantly white rich mans sport.
I dont believe that black engineers/mechanics/pitcrew are being refused jobs in Motorsport because of their skin colour.
In the 3 years I studied Aero engineering I didnt see one single black engineer or mechanic start studying anything Engineering related, period... so there is maybe a wee hint in there as to why the disparity in numbers exists in F1.

Even with your anecdotal experience recognized, it still doesn't account for the fact that F1 (and Indy Car to a lesser degree) has always been a White male sport. AFAIK, there's never been any sort of serious recruiting or development initiative to get non-White prospects involved in the sport. This is, oddly enough, where NASCAR is more "advanced" than F1 in this area. I mean, let's be honest, at least in the U.S., there are loads of non-White engineering students at all of the top universities. And yes, while Black kids aren't as prevalent as Asians (including Indians), they are there. In my time at Bell Helicopter, they were there. At Cessna, they were there. At Boeing, they were there. Though under-represented when compared to the overall population, they were still there - it wasn't zero. But in F1, they are, for the most part, not there. Even worse, let's mention Asians, who are over-represented in engineering in the U.S., but who are all but absent in F1, outside of Honda and Toyota when they were there. Additionally, given F1's history (think apartheid when F1 raced in South Africa), it's not exactly ridiculous for someone to point out the fact that F1 is one of the least diverse major sports in the world. And given the former head of F1's past tendencies to make racially charged and (no doubt about it) sexist statements, that doesn't exactly provide a "good look", especially in the current environment. But F1's record of being silent on human rights issues has always been incredibly weak, as long as the checks cleared.

Look, it's fine to say "All Lives Matter" - that's certainly how it should be. But many of those who take issue with that statement point out that that hasn't been, and in many cases, still isn't the case in the U.S. There are still too many examples where a cop, who has clearly committed an offense, is either not charged or there are long delays and the charge is extremely light. Personally, I think that both race and socio-economic status play a part in many of these cases (Black or White, being poor and having a tricky interaction with the police might not be good for your health). But there's no doubt that race also plays a part in many of these cases. The cop who was kneeling on George Floyd's neck CLEARLY didn't think that he'd have anything to worry about. Look at how he casually had his hands in his pockets as he pressed the life out of the guy. Floyd was something less than human to him - his life certainly didn't matter. If the suspect had been an equally non-threatening White female, would he have been so bold and careless? I very, very seriously doubt it. And people know that. Hence, the outrage... misplaced or not.

Often I'm reminded of the famous line from Orwell's Animal Farm when I observe some of the goings on these days: All animals are equal... but some are more equal. Ol' George was a pretty smart feller - don't get me started on 1984.

Anyway, take it as you will. We all have a right to our own points of view. Hopefully we will begin to see better days and more tranquility for all as we move forward.

[Mia 01]

You must start at the top. People choose in every election (BLM.)

Norris, like him!

[denkimi]

Even with your anecdotal experience recognized, it still doesn't account for the fact that F1 (and Indy Car to a lesser degree) has always been a White male sport. AFAIK, there's never been any sort of serious recruiting or development initiative to get non-White prospects involved in the sport.
where are all the black kids in karting?
just like with women, if there were suitable candidates, positive discrimination already would have brought them into the sport.

motorsport is in the first place a rich daddy's sport.

[N4D13]

where are all the black kids in karting?
just like with women, if there were suitable candidates, positive discrimination already would have brought them into the sport.

motorsport is in the first place a rich daddy's sport.
Don't you see how the two statements contradict each other?

One of the reasons why there are so few black people in motorsports (as Asian, as African) is that black parents typically don't have the necessary income to support a career in motorsports. For a very fast kid to get a sponsor who'd pay for their career, the parents would have needed to spend at least several thousand bucks, possibly tens of thousands. Surely you can see how that's a very tough ask on people who typically have a notably lower socioeconomic level than whites.

[truefan72]

There is a fascinating documentary on Willie T. Ribbs on Netflix and all that he had to go through.
It is an excellent insight as to how the sport was (and still is) to drivers of color and all they had to overcome just to get an honest opportunity.
His first indycar engineer literally tried to kill him with sabotaged equipment.
His first nascar engineer and pit crew were open racists and ruined his races
so many other incidents etc. from a racer who was arguably one of the fastest and skilled driver of his generation, having to watch guys he beat easily get bigger and better opportunities.
death threats, on track stuff, all of it. smh

[Jag_Warrior]

where are all the black kids in karting?
just like with women, if there were suitable candidates, positive discrimination already would have brought them into the sport.

motorsport is in the first place a rich daddy's sport.


As far as drivers, that's a valid point. But my post to Zico was about team members and engineers, not so much drivers. I just watched FP1 on my DVR. I happened to take notice of the females (all White) who are in PR roles in the various teams. It just seems odd to me that S&P 500 companies recruit and hire MUCH more diverse workforces than F1. F1's major diversity push seems to be along the lines of gender. Females are being encouraged, sought out and supported. But those females tend to be Caucasians. As I mentioned in that previous post, even NASCAR (which has a pretty dodgy reputation when it comes to racism in its past, as in refusing to recognize or accept a race win by a Black driver and another incident when a mob threatened to lynch him at a race: Wendell Scott) is doing a better job in this area than F1.

IMO, a team painting its cars black, and all the cars sporting rainbow decals and superficial slogans is pretty meaningless.

[denkimi]

Don't you see how the two statements contradict each other?

One of the reasons why there are so few black people in motorsports (as Asian, as African) is that black parents typically don't have the necessary income to support a career in motorsports. For a very fast kid to get a sponsor who'd pay for their career, the parents would have needed to spend at least several thousand bucks, possibly tens of thousands. Surely you can see how that's a very tough ask on people who typically have a notably lower socioeconomic level than whites.
they don't contradict at all.
every time i go amateur karting, i see almost only white males. from time to time you see a women, but ususally they are their with their boyfriend.
colored people are even more rare, the few times they show up, its usually a group that has no idea what to do except crash into each other.

yet karting is available for everyone. it will cost you about 15 euro for a 15 minutes drive. it's not about daddy's money, it's only about being interested in it.

[Nitrodaze]

I know all about it. So its what.. 'positive racism'? There is nothing positive about doing the black power salute on the podium at a sporting event and accusing F1 as a sport of being institutionaly racist. What happened to George Floyd was utterly wrong but to tar every white person or instituition with the same brush has all gone too far now.

I don't get your point. He did the fist salute and you say that is racism? Hamilton does the fist, Vettel does the finger. Don't be intimidated by that.


Someone better explain to Hamilton that its more likely a case of black people typically gravitating towards more athletic sports where they most often excel, making Motorsport more of a predominantly white rich mans sport.
I dont believe that black engineers/mechanics/pitcrew are being refused jobs in Motorsport because of their skin colour.
In the 3 years I studied Aero engineering I didnt see one single black engineer or mechanic start studying anything Engineering related, period... so there is maybe a wee hint in there as to why the disparity in numbers exists in F1.

I graduated in a Masters degree class with six black students out of twenty. So your comment is the type of racism BLM is trying to stamp out. The idea that black people can only do sport.


As I say... these are facts which I'm sure would be further verified if Tech college/Uni enrollments were looked into but dress it up however you like. I'm not triggered at all. You are the one hurling insults because you cant handle the notion that racism is a 2 way street. Jog on..

I see your point, but it is unfortunately very ignorant.

[Nitrodaze]

where are all the black kids in karting?
just like with women, if there were suitable candidates, positive discrimination already would have brought them into the sport.

motorsport is in the first place a rich daddy's sport.

Well you have certainly not looked into Hamilton's experience racing in karting. It is an environment that apparently is not receptive to people of colour as it is intolerant of female racers. Get your facts straight buddy. All does not seem as you think it is.

[Jag_Warrior]

they don't contradict at all.
every time i go amateur karting, i see almost only white males. from time to time you see a women, but ususally they are their with their boyfriend.
colored people are even more rare, the few times they show up, its usually a group that has no idea what to do except crash into each other.

yet karting is available for everyone. it will cost you about 15 euro for a 15 minutes drive. it's not about daddy's money, it's only about being interested in it.

Not about daddy's money? It most certainly is about somebody having money (or connections). Unless it's to get a 5 year old interested in the fundamentals of karting and racing (and there's nothing wrong with that), what does the cost of an afternoon at KiddyLand on a putt-putt kart have to do with working your way into professional motorsports?

A friend of mine looked at a used shifter kart for his son several years ago. For a good 10 year old kart, complete with spares, it was $5500. Now, let's assume the kid could show his stuff in that and could progress to junior formula cars. I don't know anything about the situation in Europe (which is where a serious F1 prospect would need to be at some point), but when my buddy and I looked at costs here in the U.S., one season of F4 was just shy of $200K. That's cost prohibitive to most people... Black, White, Brown or whatever. Only a person with money, or connections to money, is able to provide their kid with that.

Does any career that's motorsports related start with having an interest in cars and/or racing? Sure, it does. That's where it starts for everybody. But letting kids from non-typical demographic groups (whether it be race, gender or whatever) know what's available is also going to be part of growing a more diverse pool of engineers, team members, as well as drivers.

[N4D13]

In case you'd like some figures on income by ethnicity, this is from the UK government website.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest

[Zico]

Just as in all groups (political parties included), there are certainly radicalized or extremist elements within BLM (though it's not a centralized organization). But I wasn't aware that Hamilton had made any comments tarring all members of any race or group with the same brush. If you can point something out or provide a link, I'd like to read it.

I read an article by Lewis in which he was pretty scathing of F1 being a white dominated sport with no diversity. Iirc he referred to there being no disparity in the "industry" which I took to mean F1 or motorsport in general. I dont have the exact link but it has been well documented elsewhere online.

However I do think with his recently announced foundation which is attempting to promote motorsport/engineering education paths/routes for black people, the penny has finally dropped on what the reason for that is..




Even with your anecdotal experience recognized, it still doesn't account for the fact that F1 (and Indy Car to a lesser degree) has always been a White male sport. AFAIK, there's never been any sort of serious recruiting or development initiative to get non-White prospects involved in the sport. This is, oddly enough, where NASCAR is more "advanced" than F1 in this area. I mean, let's be honest, at least in the U.S., there are loads of non-White engineering students at all of the top universities. And yes, while Black kids aren't as prevalent as Asians (including Indians), they are there. In my time at Bell Helicopter, they were there. At Cessna, they were there. At Boeing, they were there. Though under-represented when compared to the overall population, they were still there - it wasn't zero. But in F1, they are, for the most part, not there. Even worse, let's mention Asians, who are over-represented in engineering in the U.S., but who are all but absent in F1, outside of Honda and Toyota when they were there. Additionally, given F1's history (think apartheid when F1 raced in South Africa), it's not exactly ridiculous for someone to point out the fact that F1 is one of the least diverse major sports in the world. And given the former head of F1's past tendencies to make racially charged and (no doubt about it) sexist statements, that doesn't exactly provide a "good look", especially in the current environment. But F1's record of being silent on human rights issues has always been incredibly weak, as long as the checks cleared.

Of course there has to be some, just not as many as you might expect percentage wise compared to other ethnic groups.
Are there really loads of black engineers in education at the top of the US Uni's? A quick google search 'lack of black engineers' suggests otherwise. One article even suggesting racism at school, college, universities as the reason for that.

Why that is I do not know... I suspect the reason for the disparity is mainly a cultural thing rather than pure racism. Of the 9 black people I know, 2 of them are musicians, 4 work in retail, 3 others in general employment. Most of them are also involved sports, mainly football (not professionally) but not one of them employed or has a hobby in anything engineering orientated.
I know that is way too small a sample to gleen anything truly representative from but it does appear to be backed up by a simple google search, feel free.


When I decided I wanted to study Engineering, I didnt need any encouragement or for it to be promoted to me. It was apparent as a child, wanting to know how everything worked, dismantling, repairing, re-assembling everything at home. I already knew what I wanted to do before I reachex high school.
If it is cultural, as it seems to me.. is it right to accuse the education system of being racist and also try to promote cultural change because there is a minority in a given sector... mainly because if we dont get more black employees there we will be accused of being racist?



Look, it's fine to say "All Lives Matter" - that's certainly how it should be. But many of those who take issue with that statement point out that that hasn't been, and in many cases, still isn't the case in the U.S. There are still too many examples where a cop, who has clearly committed an offense, is either not charged or there are long delays and the charge is extremely light. Personally, I think that both race and socio-economic status play a part in many of these cases (Black or White, being poor and having a tricky interaction with the police might not be good for your health). But there's no doubt that race also plays a part in many of these cases. The cop who was kneeling on George Floyd's neck CLEARLY didn't think that he'd have anything to worry about. Look at how he casually had his hands in his pockets as he pressed the life out of the guy. Floyd was something less than human to him - his life certainly didn't matter. If the suspect had been an equally non-threatening White female, would he have been so bold and careless? I very, very seriously doubt it. And people know that. Hence, the outrage... misplaced or not.

Absolutely.. One rotten apple doesnt make all cops or white people racist scumbags though. The vast majority of police generally do an amazing job in the face of much adversity and hate, we only really hear about the bad cases and I think people need to recognise that.


Often I'm reminded of the famous line from Orwell's Animal Farm when I observe some of the goings on these days: All animals are equal... but some are more equal. Ol' George was a pretty smart feller - don't get me started on 1984.

Anyway, take it as you will. We all have a right to our own points of view. Hopefully we will begin to see better days and more tranquility for all as we move forward.

Indeed. While I might not agree with every single thing you have said, I agree with most of it and we are able to discuss it without hurling personal insults at each other which is key for any meaningful debate, period.
Others here could learn something from that... and considering the subject being discussed here, I hope that with it being kinda ironic and hypocritical to be so intolerant of opposing views, it is not totally lost on them.

[Nitrodaze]

In case you'd like some figures on income by ethnicity, this is from the UK government website.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest

I would not rely too much on this information. Most black british graduate work in europe of further abroad, they find they would live below the poverty line if they only focus on finding work inside the UK, hence must look abroad to earn a living. That group working abroad would not feature in this survey hence it is not representative of the true state of earnings.

[N4D13]

I would not rely too much on this information. Most black british graduate work in europe of further abroad, they find they would live below the poverty line if they only focus on finding work inside the UK, hence must look abroad to earn a living. That group working abroad would not feature in this survey hence it is not representative of the true state of earnings.
Well, the point is to compare people who are actually living in the UK, right? I think that's much more useful than to compare by birthplace.

Besides, I believe some bits, particularly "most black British graduates" and "find they would live below the poverty line" require some actual evidence. But for me it's fairly hard to see how a university graduate would typically live below the poverty line in the UK (at least if we're talking about STEM professions).

On top of that, it's hard to see how only uni graduates of specific ethnicity would be affected. I'd be very much surprised if being a black engineer meant that you couldn't get a good paying job in the UK, but being white with the same qualifications didn't.

Also, you might be missing a point here. If we're talking uni graduates in the UK, which usually features very expensive tuition fees (barring Scotland), then the proportion of black people who access uni is bound to be much lower than that of whites as blacks typically have less income, which in turn means that the proportion of blacks needing to leave the country would be lower than whites.

[Nitrodaze]

Well, the point is to compare people who are actually living in the UK, right? I think that's much more useful than to compare by birthplace.

Besides, I believe some bits, particularly "most black British graduates" and "find they would live below the poverty line" require some actual evidence. But for me it's fairly hard to see how a university graduate would typically live below the poverty line in the UK (at least if we're talking about STEM professions).

On top of that, it's hard to see how only uni graduates of specific ethnicity would be affected. I'd be very much surprised if being a black engineer meant that you couldn't get a good paying job in the UK, but being white with the same qualifications didn't.

Also, you might be missing a point here. If we're talking uni graduates in the UK, which usually features very expensive tuition fees (barring Scotland), then the proportion of black people who access uni is bound to be much lower than that of whites as blacks typically have less income, which in turn means that the proportion of blacks needing to leave the country would be lower than whites.

Sorry, l did not make clear that these group have their homes and family in the UK but work abroad. And l can understand your disbelief of graduates living under the poverty line. This phenomena exist across the races actually. There are both white and black graduates living below the poverty line for various reasons. So this is not uncommon.

[Zico]

Sorry, l did not make clear that these group have their homes and family in the UK but work abroad. And l can understand your disbelief of graduates living under the poverty line. This phenomena exist across the races actually. There are both white and black graduates living below the poverty line for various reasons. So this is not uncommon.

I'd like to see your evidence that UK based engineers working abroad do not feature in the survey. I suspect you just dont like the data very much.

Also.. The UK has a shortage of Engineers. Are you suggesting that UK employers in the Engineering sector are so racist that they would rather not employ a black Engineer than fill the role to give their company the manpower to meet work demand and prosper?

[Nitrodaze]

I'd like to see your evidence that UK based engineers working abroad do not feature in the survey. I suspect you just dont like the data very much.

Also.. The UK has a shortage of Engineers. Are you suggesting that UK employers in the Engineering sector are so racist that they would rather not employ a black Engineer than fill the role to give their company the manpower to meet work demand and prosper?

I think you are taking comments out of context. Especially as my comments were not related to engineers specifically but related to the possibility that the survey might not be complete. i don't want to get into a pointless argument on this. Lets talk racing buddy :-)

[Jag_Warrior]

I read an article by Lewis in which he was pretty scathing of F1 being a white dominated sport with no diversity. Iirc he referred to there being no disparity in the "industry" which I took to mean F1 or motorsport in general. I dont have the exact link but it has been well documented elsewhere online.

However I do think with his recently announced foundation which is attempting to promote motorsport/engineering education paths/routes for black people, the penny has finally dropped on what the reason for that is..

Ah, I see. I can't comment, since I haven't read the quotes. But whether it's actual institutional racism, unintended bias or just a closed loop culture (which F1 does seem to be, what with the same old names from decades gone by keep popping up), there certainly is a lack of diversity in F1. I mean, it would be pretty hard to argue against that. As I mentioned, this lack of diversity isn't just restricted to Blacks, but also other ethnicities and women. How Hamilton expressed that fact, I'm unaware. But I pointed out several years ago how various teams were trotting out (all White) females in PR roles for the cameras. And even Lewis has a White female trainer. As well, Lewis' closest business advisor is a White male - to say nothing of his mother. And he's dated women of all ethnicities. So, I can't really see that he has any deep racial hangups about White people, in or out of F1. But he is correct to point out the deficiencies that F1 and FOM have in this area, whatever the basis may be.

If Hamilton is putting his money where his mouth is, then I guess that's a good thing, right? He could fund some scholarships and appear at some schools and just that would help - since he's such a recognizable figure in the UK and Europe. Get all kinds of kids involved in STEM and other professional pursuits.




Of course there has to be some, just not as many as you might expect percentage wise compared to other ethnic groups.
Are there really loads of black engineers in education at the top of the US Uni's? A quick google search 'lack of black engineers' suggests otherwise. One article even suggesting racism at school, college, universities as the reason for that.

As far as I'm aware, based on their percentage of the population, Blacks (males and females) are underrepresented, females (of all ethnicities) are unrepresented, Asians are overrepresented and White males are overrepresented in the U.S. based STEM fields. But would one reasonably say that just because members of a certain demographic are underrepresented, that would explain why there are close to zero working in a certain industry or sector? I would say not. It should say that we would expect them to be underrepresented in that sector, but not virtually absent. You see what I mean? So I think we're in agreement on the engineering or STEM side, but neither of us really knows the why.


But again, working for an F1 team, or simply in the FOM organization, an engineering degree is not necessary for all positions or functions. In certain business functions, it wouldn't even be preferred. I had a quick look at the MercedesAMGF1 site yesterday. Open positions included roles in technical, operations, race team and business. Of the six open positions I saw, as best I could tell from reading the descriptions and requirements, only one of the six open positions required any sort of engineering background, and another one required more of a machining and/or fabrication background. The others weren't based on having an engineering related background - really more business or human resources.



Why that is I do not know... I suspect the reason for the disparity is mainly a cultural thing rather than pure racism. Of the 9 black people I know, 2 of them are musicians, 4 work in retail, 3 others in general employment. Most of them are also involved sports, mainly football (not professionally) but not one of them employed or has a hobby in anything engineering orientated.
I know that is way too small a sample to gleen anything truly representative from but it does appear to be backed up by a simple google search, feel free.

Possibly cultural, or just a lack of promotion. I don't know the root cause either, so it's hard to say. But I'm guessing that most kids are drawn to the things that are presented to them at relatively early ages. I mean, how would one be drawn to something that they've never heard of?



When I decided I wanted to study Engineering, I didnt need any encouragement or for it to be promoted to me. It was apparent as a child, wanting to know how everything worked, dismantling, repairing, re-assembling everything at home. I already knew what I wanted to do before I reachex high school.
If it is cultural, as it seems to me.. is it right to accuse the education system of being racist and also try to promote cultural change because there is a minority in a given sector... mainly because if we dont get more black employees there we will be accused of being racist?

Rules and exceptions, right? Like you, I didn't need any (hard) encouragement to go into banking and real estate. But would I say that I am the rule or the exception in not needing encouragement to go into a specific field? More likely that I was an exception. From reading books, watching my father operate his farm and being around relatives in real estate, that's what I developed an interest in and was drawn to as I matured. If I hadn't grow up in that environment, it's more likely that I would have gone in some other direction - never being aware of the opportunities in things that I had no exposure to. Some kids know from an early age what they want to do later in life. Most do not. At least here in the U.S., the only things that we have done a really good job of promoting for kids (Blacks, White or otherwise) are sports and the military. Both are quite prominent in American public high schools, trying to sign kids up for their offerings. You see something quite different at upper tier private schools. I won't delve into that here. But let's just say that it cements the idea that it's not just what you know, but who you know that sometimes makes the difference.

I would say, if we want a more robust society, which includes things like the judicial system, educational opportunities and health care, then there is certainly no sin in pointing out current shortcomings and dealing with them.




Absolutely.. One rotten apple doesnt make all cops or white people racist scumbags though. The vast majority of police generally do an amazing job in the face of much adversity and hate, we only really hear about the bad cases and I think people need to recognise that.

Only extremists are suggesting anything of the kind. My family is full of cops, from the federal level to the local level. The main problem that I've observed over the decades is the "brotherhood" mentality that most cops have. What leads to so many of the problems that we have now in the U.S. is that there are scant mechanisms for good cops to rid their ranks of bad cops, without being called out as a turncoat or a snitch. And in the worst cases, they display an almost gangland attitude, as they cover up for the criminal acts of other cops. Here, among cops, it's called "professional courtesy"; you don't rat on your brothers, no matter what. Google that term and see what pops up. You may be pretty amazed at some of the stories. Also, be aware that some police departments maintain two sets of personnel folders on cops - one that the public sees and one that only the courts or other government agencies see. Most people have no idea about that. While in the company of my uncle, I was like a friend of the family, simply because he was a high level "made man". As a young man I thought that was kind of cool. But as I grew older, I realized that it was like knowing someone in the mafia and I was "protected" as long as I was in his company. That is a problem and it does need to be dealt with.




Indeed. While I might not agree with every single thing you have said, I agree with most of it and we are able to discuss it without hurling personal insults at each other which is key for any meaningful debate, period.
Others here could learn something from that... and considering the subject being discussed here, I hope that with it being kinda ironic and hypocritical to be so intolerant of opposing views, it is not totally lost on them.

That's cool. I enjoy discussions where people can freely express their views. It's partially how I learn. Most of us that remain on this board have been around for quite a few years. We're here because of our love for F1 and I think that we all want it to get bigger and better. Having the sport open itself up to a more diverse fanbase, all while bringing in a more diverse talent pool, is a key component in that way forward, IMO.

Cheers.