Route announced for Rally GB 2020!

[the sniper]

The route for this year’s Rally GB has been announced.

1. leg
SS1 Gwydyr --- 7.76km --- 29. 11. 18:05
SS2 Penmachno --- 20.76 km --- 18:38
SS3 Clocaenog --- 31.98 km --- 20:02

Flexi Service A - Deeside - 45 min --- 21:31

Leg total --- 60.50 km

2. leg
Service B - Deeside - 15 min --- 30. 11. 06:30

SS4 Dyfnant --- 20.34 km --- 08:56
SS5 Gartheiniog 1 --- 12.61 km --- 10:11
SS6 Dyfi 1 --- 21.86 km --- 10:40
SS7 Hafren Sweet Lamb 1 --- 17.83 km --- 11:50

Tyre Fitting Zone - Newtown - 15 min

SS8 Myherin --- 17.13 km --- 14:58
SS9 Taliesin --- 10.12 km --- 15:56

Light Fitting Zone - Machynlleth

SS10 Gartheiniog 2 --- 12.61 km --- 17:22
SS11 Dyfi 2 --- 21.86 km --- 17:51
SS12 Hafren Sweet Lamb 2 --- 17.83 km --- 19:01

Flexi Service C - Deeside - 45 Min --- 22:03

Leg total --- 152.19 km

3. leg
Service D - Deeside - 15 min --- 31. 11. 06:30

SS13 Grizedale East --- 7.20 km --- 09:41
SS14 Grizedale West --- 27.90 km --- 10:04
SS15 Comb --- 8.70 km --- 12:03
SS16 Kershope --- 27.36km 15:05

Tyre & Light Fitting Zone - Kielder - 15 min

SS17 Bewshaugh --- 28.44 km --- 17:22
SS18 Pundershaw --- 39.88 km --- 18:06

Flexi Service E - Gateshead - 45 Min 20:32

Leg total --- 139.48 km

4. leg
Service D - Gateshead - 15 min --- 01. 11. 06:15

SS19 Hamsterley --- 20.43 km --- 08:17
SS20 Gale Rigg --- 10.34 km --- 11:13
SS21 Cropton [Power Stage] --- 15.73 km --- 12:18

Leg total --- 46.50 km

Event total --- 398.67km


What an amazing surprise, it looks great! From out of nowhere they’ve announced that the RAC have come onboard as principal sponsor, this has allowed them to produce an itinerary more befitting the great history of this event. Seemingly the main service park ‘homes’ infrastructure will stay in Deeside thoughout the event, but with a kind of ‘super remote service’ in Gateshead (next to central Newcastle) hosting service on Saturday night/Sunday morning. The start and finish will be in Chester. There’ll also be a regroup in central Carlisle on Saturday afternoon.

Ian Campbell, Clerk of the Course says “We’d like to thank the RAC for becoming Rally GB’s principle sponsor, this has allowed us to create a route that I’m sure all fans will recognise as a huge challenge and fantastic opportunity to go ‘Back to the Future’ with our sport. I look forward seeing fans across Britain out on the stages later this year. I’d also like to thank the FIA and WRC Promoter for supporting our plans to create a more challenging event.”

[KiwiWRCfan]

Sounds fantastic route with very few repeat stages. Think we should carefully note this date in our diaries as date a WRC itinerary with substance was announced. ;-)

[EstWRC]

Hamsterley, lol

very long days again like usual for this rally.

[AnttiL]

Hamsterley, lol

What's to lol about that ;) https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1986/Hamsterley

[Katvala]

Is this April fools..? I cannot find any information about this online. On top of this, it seems unlikely. Also that route mentions more than 350km which does not comply with the rules.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

[rallyfiend]

Surely this is the worst April Fools Day joke ever?

Geez, why do people bother this shite. It's so pathetic....

[AnttiL]

Surely this is the worst April Fools Day joke ever?

Geez, why do people bother this shite. It's so pathetic....

One of the best I’d say. :)

[wwbroe]

One of the best I’d say. :)

I agree, very good april's joke i must say.:D

[EstWRC]

What's to lol about that ;) https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1986/Hamsterley

the name and the whole post

another one is Pundershaw..lol

[Rallyper]

Sounds fantastic route with very few repeat stages. Think we should carefully note this date in our diaries as date a WRC itinerary with substance was announced. ;-)

Anyway, this should be WRC going back to it´s roots. 1st of April or not, and new R1 regulations or not...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Now this is what I call a proper Rally GB !

https://www.ewrc-results.com/timetable/1500-lombard-rac-rally-1985/

[AndyRAC]

Very good!! One of the best 'fantasy routes' - as its actually very workable (just need a waiver from the FiA on distances, etc)

[T16]

Anyway, this should be WRC going back to it´s roots. 1st of April or not, and new R1 regulations or not...

Not sure if you watched the online coverage of the recent Roger Albert Clarke rally, but it made me realise what we’re missing.
It’s ok for those to say ‘well, this IS now rallying’ but it isn’t, it really isn’t.
Endurance was part of the essence of this great sport and it is no longer. Such a shame.

[Rallyper]

Maybe AnttiL could give us his very best Rally Finland route? Or maybe you already gave us one, I don´t know?

One could do it in two ways: unrealistic or realistic with small changes in rules and also bringing back the original essence of what WRC used to be. Having said that I personally don´t think 52 stages and legs all around the clock is realistic any more. But remote service with limited resources should give organizer more space...

Just change name on this thread...

[AnttiL]

Well I've designed before a Rally GB route based in Carlisle or Newcastle in order to use the Kielder and Grizedale forest stages but with the current WRC regulations.

Conversely, now me and two other route geeks are designing a Rally Finland route with the old "RAC" concept. Super specials on Sunday, then forest stages around the country for four days.

[HKSjbg]

Well I've designed before a Rally GB route based in Carlisle or Newcastle in order to use the Kielder and Grizedale forest stages but with the current WRC regulations.

Is this available to view on your website?

[AnttiL]

Is this available to view on your website?

No, but I posted it earlier on this forum. Here's the spreadsheet I used to design it

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQRSIhbJ-Uo_EhmB_fCeBbH9fs4FifDVPQpCDYTq0szeGbqzIKskqEMhNyi mLFlhH9JVAGH_E6NxaCa/pubhtml

[AndyRAC]

Not sure if you watched the online coverage of the recent Roger Albert Clarke rally, but it made me realise what we’re missing.
It’s ok for those to say ‘well, this IS now rallying’ but it isn’t, it really isn’t.
Endurance was part of the essence of this great sport and it is no longer. Such a shame.
I enjoy the current sport for what it is now; not what it could/should be. However, it is an element that is missed. My endurance motorsport is now served by the various GT/Sportscar races which are as popular as ever, if not more so.
In fact, Porsche have just released a film, titled 'Endurance' about the two back to back 24 Hour races from last year; Le Mans & Nurburgring; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvbkr-nXpjE

[the sniper]

Thanks for indulging me folks, I'm glad most people took it in the spirit it was intended. I've had that kind of itinerary in my head for a while. Having plenty of time on my hands now gave me the time to plot it all out and put it down in writing. April Fools seemed like a good opportunity to make use of it and a good prompt for some creative discussion! I'm glad it had the desired effect. :D

I spent an embarrassing amount of time watching various onboards from national rallies and used my own recces on foot of various forests over the years to try and establish how much of old stages on rally-maps and ewrc are still in good/usable condition. Due to this the stage lengths aren't actually completely random. The road section times seem workable, but many were admittedly just worked out using a rough idea of their methodology and Google Maps.

Is it too late to add that the RAC will also be sponsoring a five round 2021 BRC season, which I've also 'fantasy booked' in my head...? :D

[AnttiL]

I enjoy the current sport for what it is now; not what it could/should be. However, it is an element that is missed.

I've been looking at the RAC reports posted on VHSRallies and it's crazy that the rallies used to be so long but there was so little footage or coverage. Now we can follow every second and know all little details, even if the rallies are half shorter.

[the sniper]

I've been looking at the RAC reports posted on VHSRallies and it's crazy that the rallies used to be so long but there was so little footage or coverage. Now we can follow every second and know all little details, even if the rallies are half shorter.

They were ridiculous, particularly up until '85. The sport should never go back to that. But I do feel the sport has gone too far the other way now though. As a very general rule, I think the itineraries seen from roughly 1993 to 1999 were the best balance. Particularly in GB, what I call the 'ever decreasing circles' concept of rallying has changed the sport beyond all recognition and I feel heavily contributed to it's decline in popularity here.

[AnttiL]

We've talked this over a million times. Motorsport ain't cool anymore, it's not so easy to get marshalls for such a large number of stages. It's the same downwards trend as on the factory team budgets. Meanwhile, higher safety measures and a larger number of marshalls per km are required. Spectators (apparently) require other entertainment than just rally cars and other hospitality than the food and drinks you brought over in your backpack. In addition, double-run stages require less recce time compared to a route which consists of single-run stages. The entry lists are shorter so the roads withstand double runs. Service parks are now big buildings which won't move easily, and teams start complaining even about remote tyre changes which require one van and two crew members to drive off the service park.

I would also personally like to have longer events, with more stages covered and more single runs, but I understand why it is like it is.

Also, if I may recommend my past blog posts on the topic:

https://itgetsfasternow.com/2019/02/27/wrc-itineraries-by-the-rule-book/
https://itgetsfasternow.com/2018/01/03/short-or-long-wrc-rallies-why-not-have-both/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I've been looking at the RAC reports posted on VHSRallies and it's crazy that the rallies used to be so long but there was so little footage or coverage. Now we can follow every second and know all little details, even if the rallies are half shorter.

The RAC's duration, no pacenotes, high night mileage and bad weather made it what it was.

It was never just about pure speed. It had a real magic and mystery too as the coverage was so delayed and tv coverage rare (although mainstream).

Its pretty ironic we saw so little of it compared to nowadays.

But maybe its WRC All Live that's actally what is making the modern short rallies acceptable to us. The footage is more way more now, so we ignore how little mileage there is because at least we see it all ?

[AnttiL]

But maybe its WRC All Live that's actally what is making the modern short rallies acceptable to us. The footage is more way more now, so we ignore how little mileage there is because at least we see it all ?

Yeah, it almost feels like we've condensed all the action of a 500-800 km 4-5 day rally into a 300 km 3 day rally, and we can follow it all live.

It's also good to remember that in rallies like RAC 1985 you couldn't go flat out all the time. A lot of the stages you had to just take it easy and make sure you get through the stage without issues. You had to drive for 36 hours without sleep and there was no Rally2. Conversely, now the drivers are usually well rested and the cars can take it going absolutely flat out all the time. Split times make up for smaller number of stages.

Also, it's crazy that half of the 4WD factory cars retired during the first forest stage leg. People would be shouting "this is a joke" on twitter if that happened today, and we would see an R5 (equivalent to Kankkunen's RWD Toyota) at 4th place. But now, it's the most legendary race of all times.

EDIT: I just watched the RAC 1985 day four footage and a lot of the cars look like "saving tyres for power stage"

[the sniper]

I don't think they need to change much. As shown by my itinerary, you can theoretically* create an 'event' of greater magnitude almost within the boundaries of the current rules and methodology. Like in Portugal, bringing back the stages further south around Arganil was a very positive step. But for some countries it isn't necessary, Rally Finland doesn't need remote services or very long road sections. Rally Finland is a great event, but that doesn't mean that the formula used there is necessarily the best solution everywhere, but this is the thinking the WRC/FIA committed to.

*The issue is who pays for it. While the cost wouldn't be much higher, the funding model required becomes more complicated in GB's case.

[doubled1978]

Yeah, it almost feels like we've condensed all the action of a 500-800 km 4-5 day rally into a 300 km 3 day rally, and we can follow it all live.

It's also good to remember that in rallies like RAC 1985 you couldn't go flat out all the time. A lot of the stages you had to just take it easy and make sure you get through the stage without issues. You had to drive for 36 hours without sleep and there was no Rally2. Conversely, now the drivers are usually well rested and the cars can take it going absolutely flat out all the time. Split times make up for smaller number of stages.

Also, it's crazy that half of the 4WD factory cars retired during the first forest stage leg. People would be shouting "this is a joke" on twitter if that happened today, and we would see an R5 (equivalent to Kankkunen's RWD Toyota) at 4th place. But now, it's the most legendary race of all times.

EDIT: I just watched the RAC 1985 day four footage and a lot of the cars look like "saving tyres for power stage"

Exactly this. In those days, quite often they didn’t drive flat out very often, and by day 3/4 everyone was just cruising to finish as the gaps were so big. There were exceptions, 1986 was a good fight until close to the end.
Even when we talk about times like 2000, the gaps between the top 10 were massive, and they were all WRC cars, now the gaps are closer even with WRC2 cars.
There are pros and cons to both extremes, but for me the flat out action of today is more exciting, but the adventure side of yesteryear was more fun...

[AnttiL]

I don't think they need to change much. As shown by my itinerary, you can theoretically* create an 'event' of greater magnitude almost within the boundaries of the current rules and methodology. Like in Portugal, bringing back the stages further south around Arganil was a very positive step.

You also bent the rules by having forest stages on Thursday, although removing them would have also made the total length decrease below the permitted 350 km ;)

Portugal has the first day in the Arganil area with the start there, whereas Monte does the opposite by ending with the Turini area stages and having the finish in Monaco. In GB terms you could have the rally based in Carlisle, do stages in Grizedale and Kielder and then drive to Wales on the Saturday evening, stay overnight somewhere and do Wales stages on Sunday. However, the distance from Arganil to Porto is only 160 km whereas from Gap to Monaco it's about 250 km, which in turn is roughly the same as from Carlisle to Deeside. However, you can question would it be worth the liaison. Having the finish in Monaco and driving the Turini stages definitely is worth it. But could Yorkshire stages offer the same as Wales with less liaisons?

[the sniper]

You also bent the rules by having forest stages on Thursday, although removing them would have also made the total length decrease below the permitted 350 km ;)

Indeed! Hopefully that will be the only change when the official itinerary comes out... ;) :D


Portugal has the first day in the Arganil area with the start there, whereas Monte does the opposite by ending with the Turini area stages and having the finish in Monaco. In GB terms you could have the rally based in Carlisle, do stages in Grizedale and Kielder and then drive to Wales on the Saturday evening, stay overnight somewhere and do Wales stages on Sunday. However, the distance from Arganil to Porto is only 160 km whereas from Gap to Monaco it's about 250 km, which in turn is roughly the same as from Carlisle to Deeside. However, you can question would it be worth the liaison. Having the finish in Monaco and driving the Turini stages definitely is worth it. But could Yorkshire stages offer the same as Wales with less liaisons?

You could do it that way, but the beauty of Deeside as the main service park is that from Deeside to a Grizedale East SS Start is 184km or around 2hr 10m actual driving time in clear traffic (that you'd get pre-9am on a Saturday). Deeside to a Myherin SS Start, which has been done many years, is 135km but involves around 1hr 55m of actual driving. So going North from Deeside rather than South isn't too big of a step. Arguably the drive North up the Motorway would be far easier than the somewhat shorter drive South down the A roads.

As for Yorkshire, if anything I can only see it being a bit part player in any form of Rally GB. If you were to run every sensibly usable gravel stage across Yorkshire, of which there are around 11, the majority of which are shorter than 10km, you'd only have around 110km of SS. Of the core famous Yorkshire stages, I personally don't think Dalby now lends itself too well to a WRC level event. The stages are very narrow, with many long straights, broken up by slow, tight corners. But Dalby could provide up to 40km of SS... I can imagine a nice 220km National BRC or ERC level International rally there, but I just don't see it taking a central role in a WRC rally. So yes, you could use it for the Sunday, but nothing more.

[AnttiL]

Yeah agreed about Yorkshire. Kielder stages are also quite often just long straights and 90° or flat corners, Grizedale has much more character. In turn, there's not much stages to combine Grizedale with to make a full day.

But meanwhile, I like the mid-Wales stages (Myherin, Hafren, Dyfi) the best. The roads are wider and have still hairpins, as well as fast-flowing long bends.

How about starting the Friday in Grizedale, then moving over to Wales in the evening through a couple of park stages in England, and do the rest of the rally in Wales?

Well, the drivers already complain about too much liaisons and the teams complain that their service parks have no visitors on days with remote services...

[doubled1978]

You could use Comb and Wythop to help make mileage in the Lake District, 2 runs of the Grizedale stages and those two, plus a run at Lowther would give about 100km for the day.
Perhaps the biggest stumbling block in the modern world is that access around the Lake District is a nightmare, traffic was always murder and it won’t be better now.

[AndyRAC]

The Malcolm Wilson Rally uses both Comb & Hobcarton, which are in the Whinlatter Forest park; they'd probably have to run early in the morning, as the Forestry want the forest back as soon as possible.

And Yorkshire is interesting, as the amount of events allowed is drastically reduced; Dalby, Langdale, plus Cropton, and maybe the stages near Helmsley. Then you have the issue of overnight parking; would it be relaxed for RallyGB?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

EDIT: I just watched the RAC 1985 day four footage and a lot of the cars look like "saving tyres for power stage"

Hardly, the stages were covered snow and ice and the cars had no studded tyres. Survival was about as good as was possible.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

EDIT: I just watched the RAC 1985 day four footage and a lot of the cars look like "saving tyres for power stage"

And on Day 5 the stages were covered snow and ice and the cars had no studded tyres. Survival was about as good as was possible.

[AnttiL]

We still have that aspect in Monte Carlo from time to time. Anyway my point was that in a long and blind rally, you cannot push to the maximum and it's not as exciting for a spectator standing on the banks.

[Steve Boyd]

You could do it that way, but the beauty of Deeside as the main service park is that from Deeside to a Grizedale East SS Start is 184km or around 2hr 10m actual driving time in clear traffic (that you'd get pre-9am on a Saturday). Deeside to a Myherin SS Start, which has been done many years, is 135km but involves around 1hr 55m of actual driving. So going North from Deeside rather than South isn't too big of a step.
I think you need to look at your schedule agian.
The UK Motor Vehicles (Competions and Trials) Regulations Schedule 3, Standard Condition 14 (b) (i) requires that the average speed of competitors on a motorway is less than 50 mph and on all other roads is less than 30 mph.
I think that means it's going to take a quite a bit longer than 2h10m to get from Deeside to Grizedale.

[the sniper]

I think you need to look at your schedule agian.
The UK Motor Vehicles (Competions and Trials) Regulations Schedule 3, Standard Condition 14 (b) (i) requires that the average speed of competitors on a motorway is less than 50 mph and on all other roads is less than 30 mph.
I think that means it's going to take a quite a bit longer than 2h10m to get from Deeside to Grizedale.

In my itinerary I've given 3 hours to do that. Rough average speed around 38mph I believe. As I said, what you quoted is the actual driving time in reality. If anything from Deeside the higher average speed allowed for Motorways makes Grizedale a more sensible option than Mid Wales, if Welsh funding wasn't a factor...

[AnttiL]

In my itinerary I've given 3 hours to do that. Rough average speed around 38mph I believe. As I said, what you quoted is the actual driving time in reality. If anything from Deeside the higher average speed allowed for Motorways makes Grizedale a more sensible option than Mid Wales, if Welsh funding wasn't a factor...

...but spectator and television potential are higher in Mid Wales

[the sniper]

...but spectator and television potential are higher in Mid Wales

I'm not totally sure about that. The advantage of Mid Wales is the availability of far more stage millage (and variations within each forest) and perhaps the ability to manage spectator access/parking reasonably easily. Grizedale would probably be more attractive to potential spectators in the Manchester/Liverpool/North West area than Mid Wales. Television wise, what criteria are you using? The Lake District in which Grizedale lies is widely considered to be one of the most attractive parts of England.

[AnttiL]

I'm not totally sure about that. The advantage of Mid Wales is the availability of far more stage millage (and variations within each forest) and perhaps the ability to manage spectator access/parking reasonably easily. Grizedale would probably be more attractive to potential spectators in the Manchester/Liverpool/North West area than Mid Wales. Television wise, what criteria are you using? The Lake District in which Grizedale lies is widely considered to be one of the most attractive parts of England.

Well, I haven't visited either location, but I have the feeling that Grizedale is slower, narrower and in a tighter forest, whereas stages like Myherin, Dyfi and Hafren have wider roads, more speed, more open areas which allow longer shots on TV. Also I suppose there wouldn't be such spectator-friendly areas with proper rally roads like Sweet Lamb.

Anyway, I'd still love to see Grizedale in a WRC event some day :)

[AnttiL]

If you want more inspiration, look at the RAC 1987 maps I just digitized. Sadly the ordnance survey book was missing all the opening day park stages.

For example the Taliesin stage mentioned in this thread was included in the route. It hasn't been driven since, and the previous time has been in 1980.

https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1987

[T16]

Maybe include a stage in Guisborough again?

[AnttiL]

Maybe include a stage in Guisborough again?

https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1990/Guisborough

in Northern Yorkshire.

[the sniper]

If you want more inspiration, look at the RAC 1987 maps I just digitized. Sadly the ordnance survey book was missing all the opening day park stages.

For example the Taliesin stage mentioned in this thread was included in the route. It hasn't been driven since, and the previous time has been in 1980.

https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1987

Another fantastic addition, thanks Antti!

I'm a big advocate for Taliesin. The road surface is in really good condition and it's a nice, characterful stage. It's a bit like a mini Myherin. A modern version would probably be better starting/finishing along the more westerly road from the junction 2.08km from the start on your map, as that is the main track through there now and it'd mean you can get at least a 10km stage out of it. Having asked the question, there is apparently no objection to its use on the forestry side. I don't think it's been used on National rallies since the mid 2000s, ewrc seems to indicate the 2006 Plains Rally was the last stage there and Andreas Mikkelsen was quickest!


Maybe include a stage in Guisborough again?

It's an idea, I haven't walked it but I get the impression it's a pretty slow, narrow stage though. I seem to remember reading an organiser (maybe Colin Heppenstall, Roger Albert Clark Rally) say that they'd never personally use Guisborough again because they had big problems with local scallies from Guisborough coming up in the night and taking down stuff they'd set up for the stage!

[T16]

Another fantastic addition, thanks Antti!

I'm a big advocate for Taliesin. The road surface is in really good condition and it's a nice, characterful stage. It's a bit like a mini Myherin. A modern version would probably be better starting/finishing along the more westerly road from the junction 2.08km from the start on your map, as that is the main track through there now and it'd mean you can get at least a 10km stage out of it. Having asked the question, there is apparently no objection to its use on the forestry side. I don't think it's been used on National rallies since the mid 2000s, ewrc seems to indicate the 2006 Plains Rally was the last stage there and Andreas Mikkelsen was quickest!



It's an idea, I haven't walked it but I get the impression it's a pretty slow, narrow stage though. I seem to remember reading an organiser (maybe Colin Heppenstall, Roger Albert Clark Rally) say that they'd never personally use Guisborough again because they had big problems with local scallies from Guisborough coming up in the night and taking down stuff they'd set up for the stage!

I didn’t know the Roger Albert Clark went through Guisborough?
I ride my bike there a lot and it’s definitely wide enough and you could get a fair few miles in there too.
The old RAC did... an ex had lived on the estate that backs onto the forest all her life and she used to walk with her parents to watch it. It’s amazing to imagine 205T16s and S1s blasting around there back in the day.

[doubled1978]

If you want more inspiration, look at the RAC 1987 maps I just digitized. Sadly the ordnance survey book was missing all the opening day park stages.

For example the Taliesin stage mentioned in this thread was included in the route. It hasn't been driven since, and the previous time has been in 1980.

https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1987


Awesome to see those alternate routes that have been previously used, especially Wales as it’s relevant to today.
I wish I still had the OS stage books that came with the rally pack as I would like to see where the car parks were in relation, parking always seemed to be an afterthought back then.

[AnttiL]

I didn’t know the Roger Albert Clark went through Guisborough?
I ride my bike there a lot and it’s definitely wide enough and you could get a fair few miles in there too.
The old RAC did... an ex had lived on the estate that backs onto the forest all her life and she used to walk with her parents to watch it. It’s amazing to imagine 205T16s and S1s blasting around there back in the day.

My database says the stage was driven 1978-1982 and 1990. Not sure though if it was included in other years in an alternate form with another title, but at least not in 1986. And in 1985 both S1's and two of the three 205T16's retired already before Yorkshire.

[T16]

My database says the stage was driven 1978-1982 and 1990. Not sure though if it was included in other years in an alternate form with another title, but at least not in 1986. And in 1985 both S1's and two of the three 205T16's retired already before Yorkshire.

Interesting. So no group B in Guisborough then?... still ok to imagine it I guess. To be fair, I find it hard to be in a forest without daydreaming of a rally car flying past.
Also, just read up a bit about group B that I didn’t know, which was that there were several ‘classes’ in it.
Cheers for the cracking work you always do with your website and route info AnttiL, especially welcome at the moment.

[the sniper]

I didn’t know the Roger Albert Clark went through Guisborough?

That's the bit I'm not sure about! I think I saw that comment on the British Rally Forum, I'll try and find it.


Interesting. So no group B in Guisborough then?... still ok to imagine it I guess. To be fair, I find it hard to be in a forest without daydreaming of a rally car flying past.
Also, just read up a bit about group B that I didn’t know, which was that there were several ‘classes’ in it.

Almost certainly was used on the Mintex/National Breakdown Rally though, the opening round of the BRC. Plenty of Group B cars in that, Peugeot 205 T16 and Audi Quattro Sport on the entry list in 1986.

[doubled1978]

That's the bit I'm not sure about! I think I saw that comment on the British Rally Forum, I'll try and find it.



Almost certainly was used on the Mintex/National Breakdown Rally though, the opening round of the BRC. Plenty of Group B cars in that, Peugeot 205 T16 and Audi Quattro Sport on the entry list in 1986.

I don’t recall if it was used or not in 1986 on the Mintex, but the rally was extremely snowy, lots of cancelled stages....spectators were getting stuck all over the place.

[AnttiL]

If you want more inspiration, look at the RAC 1987 maps I just digitized. Sadly the ordnance survey book was missing all the opening day park stages.

For example the Taliesin stage mentioned in this thread was included in the route. It hasn't been driven since, and the previous time has been in 1980.

https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1987

I found some of the park stage map outlines on a Top Gear Rally Report on YouTube, and managed to get the Trentham Gardens route by using old base maps https://www.old-maps.co.uk/ I also added the routes of Trentham stages of 1986 and 1991 since I wasn't able to figure them out earlier. They're still educated guesses at best since the area has changed so much, but at least better than nothing. The 1986 one, however, is probably still wrong.

https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1986/Trentham-Gardens

https://i.imgur.com/dkd3SyA.jpg

[T16]

Just had a look at the link you posted to the 1990 stage in Guisborough.
I’ll head over on the bike and take some photos at some point.

[HKSjbg]

I’ve got a lot of time on my hands right now and this thread got me thinking about how much unique stage mileage there is in Yorkshire, if indeed Guisborough is still useable.

Using everybody’s favourite stage map website, rally-maps.com, I had a look at what last year’s Riponian and Trackrod stages used, took the length of Duncombe Park from the 2011 R.A.C. Rally from ewrc-results.com and added just short of the full length of Oliver’s Mount (does anyone know how much of the circuit tended to be used?).

The difficult part was figuring out how much unique mileage there is in Dalby, without it encroaching on Staindale. Unless I map it out on my very short WFH lunch break I can only guess - two stages of Dalby, or it could be one 25+ km one.

Here’s what I’ve got, I was actually surprised how many km there is, in a single pass of each too.

1. Duncombe Park - 3.81km
2. Oliver’s Mount - 3.89km
3. Guisborough - 7.34km
4. Boltby - 5.91km
5. Wass Moor - 6.16km
6. Cropton - 12.96km
7. Gale Rigg - 7.81km
8. Langdale - 13.44km
9. Staindale - 9.24km
10. Dalby North - 13.43km
11. Dalby South - 13.44km

97.07km

In reality for an international rally, it would be two passes, possibly starting with Duncombe, then Oliver’s Mount, then Guisborough (would consecutive passes be possible? To stop the cars having to come back round to the North side of the North York Moors), then on to Boltby & Wass, second pass of Duncombe and then the stages in North Riding Forest.

[ProSpec]

Some more for the Yorkshire list

Newton House/ Pike Hill
Harwood Dale
Low North
Broxa
Wykeham/ Troutsdale
Wykeham South
Bickley/ Broad Head
Roppa/ Cowhouse Bank/ East Moor
Riccaldale
Middleheads
Duncombe Park
Deer Park/ Sproxton Moor
Sproxton/ Pry Rigg
Sutton Bank
Over Silton
Arncliffe Wood
Broughton Plantation
Ingleby

Think that I have watched in all of these.

[HKSjbg]

Are those all still in use/available to use? I read in the thread for last year’s R.A.C. Rally that at least Wykeham has ‘been lost’. Considering the National Breakdown/Talkland Rally up until the ‘90s used to go into 3+ hours of running I can only imagine there were much more forests available for rallying!

[ProSpec]

No, Most have not been used for years. Checking my maps, I am not sure about Arncliffe Wood but the others I have got routes for.

[ProSpec]

Just spotted something in my database for Bransdale moor but it would have been from before 1980.

[the sniper]

Hopefully in time me and Antti will be to add something of interest regarding Yorkshire... ;)


Some more for the Yorkshire list

Wykeham/ Troutsdale
Bickley/ Broad Head
Roppa/ Cowhouse Bank/ East Moor
Riccaldale
Deer Park/ Sproxton Moor


Are those all still in use/available to use? I read in the thread for last year’s R.A.C. Rally that at least Wykeham has ‘been lost’. Considering the National Breakdown/Talkland Rally up until the ‘90s used to go into 3+ hours of running I can only imagine there were much more forests available for rallying!

Varies. Taking some of those listed, Wykeham/Troutsdale is a near total loss, as seemingly a landslide (which I guess happened in the early 90s?) at the west end cut the track off as a through route. It's a shame as the bulk of the track is in really nice condition. This stage included a popular bowl like section on the east side, but I don't think the surface in that bit is in prime condition. Funnily enough I only went to have a look at the situation in Wykeham/Troutsdale just before the lockdown and took these photos:

Looking East towards the stage:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/CxyBu4BxhLaG1heRwv621FJ4_gptkYlOUiDBpSKRXx-w8nPF1suyiBGsSJgdKhDerk6CShyUOqmO70nvAOz1FyMGZ4JGM pBZ2oudup5X3l2B29bRejD80B3chal1khMc_cU0erw--whx048ksEDeunROwJYZGw_UvffZDLKAlQOWeydtdUyItO8J9us xilGWyDJaX-pXyKcpNxGjza4uEoiiG_71UmkHugEDFuH6s5GT0XtvSgNnzZVJ atUBXSf3xCyOLg-HK_DoM5YkHJKqQCsrTkOyMuXISQYMwnbCdstvD6ByS3OSOyJyY odddRMCaUYwIrQqAyL2liBOj-85FGKyIIXUCr_5myf3f4U1jiXNJG61IQ0GZbsPfBkGIVwB0j5l VDifsNW6_ZCpGDB_fdic8eOCLZso6lzRPspKn83hUwOJnn754i fdVW25-TFYw9r8_MYcLpkOVD1B7l0XQxKkneKFX1V4DSp9lTg5ayzj_9Q b5fen_pgND76Tk2J32fqStSLJ4PJGLSjglXdH0YaGwc4ReSApJ SyVvzB6nWORLMtl2hgJgKRZmQMcoDDsjK5DzyK_i1CQKnMLEEV lwks0bfMPirrR06aLb8-y_FP8A8IUGCNjQ90NlytyXBDh_XJaYGLMypDVeF-PU5JOT0hArbsj8MnnKn3JLa8kerwEnzoaZcr1fb9J0oq6nZF_I IzJbxWJr_zAWqfRzX9HqWmhd1ZOZY9zhL3cHtSydEw0BTI7WMv FKCA=w1723-h969-no?pageId=117956411460675638727

Looking West at the same spot:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sC1wInlGJUJ9pw55Gx-4b3VcyoYMDRIckdTC45Itx5KtbcjzdV2GeIiFpF1p9lZqaByIz sUl70UkL0G1QzMUNtHqCOO8ozQPG_qqngNcBOTcyyrVYRDI86m opThQDdJ5A4ttovmaPT7jWGcqXzfLk5Lu61mrpicWyTdrLANgn cHiPLRsZ4E0ZzF7sJCISQCRLq8AokFBtgeGXgGTCGFrepuNL4b 9-s9qxN8f7c70WauXI3WuRId-tesvTvjlystNh0tAwcN2Wh5MkVQbaZOIVP9RoYlDNbk3WqD2Ek GuUs-7sEzDqDwMKWjsVpcw_FHzr_oq0vYdkA7Y5oWjhZuZEjyrz-2blbxMxitaeffMGubT18cdto7V4m5ZavQIyK7lIcCB8v8HViYB JFIcZJfRX5Bu-amdMHsT1GpycmkCENJ286B24JYMXuyjWBA2hyCiEr1865X4Obr ggqP74kil59PW4yapeehvrQLli_vo1OwtzTOWKBxLKEmjGc4Qm IlqtmrEAwvraWfiJLI72GYF75fJwJxg1KiXWVu6CbltOj1NQhx-Gu4Dz3ZTLw9pWc9q31QZL_ZWBzOpcB7ZH3trkFbY9lL44KES1e 76Nk76-yvmP71B4PLc-UQGxWS40fG1a33xZ9x2r140yIsUmeIpjNh-POl26b9ax59PkirPpJSDohqbhJJrJNxyYra1pFtlIRHmrENMUA cYmMd_2LmXmh9Z_mwmKmqOawHX37GoAuaOs9ZXIB6zI5w=w172 3-h969-no?pageId=117956411460675638727

Roppa/ Cowhouse Bank/ East Moor, Riccaldale and Deer Park/ Sproxton Moor have been used on the Riponian in recent years, though IIRC permission to use them may have been withdrawn by the owner a couple of years ago?

Bickley is another one I've walked. Parts are in really good condition, parts would very much need re-grading. A few pictures:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IPFFlKqw7wCDbUoHv48oUJGZzy38GxX1gDqwSg0kVBw1jTzkoV Dpw11Tz_0s1cS2qylo6I8E6OdDjzeqGy5sS34JGVKB7xZh9eZV IRDCueI-MjjGtuRID7ydGxx0P4e58pJPg2DrBgZtMepm-Gt9VCEBotHK3--485AwiYWj8YHkR0SC1Ne3Hjta3qQ6xHpUlr6BvpMs8ssJjHlYk LCEeUvLfvxxsujTz8RSRIGwDCVRaEMjzcNQunUT26vlJeCXFvg Gea1V8aDLZXiQb1__popRabhNyz4CNcSrvlfIhNrZl2-L0y0qrMWleXYoK71k9hIF0GkaSUXaTnTWSe76Tbol7H_WoL-WyNhdy9PsEbFbdzNNQq38zdelOLSyAsafhSRw6Do-AEgr-iBd4pvSVOzhH9bZlD8Oko1Sv_cxrfuhzv6v3rPHPou91MPTh-SWT9jhBBmeSoXiShS8ex466s8oF94LI5frdE5q5EuNMSo2B6gk 0a-2sSCV427c2MgYHkSbVmCVovzwj4uwCTjAkSi8mBAPcqAKIQ_Qa MmgE90woqn67fRaQdAM5Vhaux3cZbUc-_YA0FDuyJykoSAfvUwseUaNZXMxSA8JOo3_4CzP6KPV37iJFBs TqkTn5wubG56tALP-MYsBww5eXfhC8Wf7QZ-qwPIbCo4syR0LCs3tQ7iy570P6EhEE2Nn_kMM-ljIuFP1UWgl0Pkq74Ha0ubRPAEie4AU0cK0HdC_T3Lyi_UPU0Z HpB0=w1723-h969-no?pageId=117956411460675638727

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yeqpxcpOGX3Gq62xaUECnoLLeuV-4LATEASkiaBmHw25JqNoIiG_er9qhBArZu7N2UdcXqaHUAXG3B 1BnxGxI_Zk9VPbuuBQROYxWnajw3-dDXFhnz4prYIF87ea_ofyOStJYHfKUmFeczkU5sCnsCd3wzHEQ Z4lCjXlk7Ka_-SV8njsfXhcBEMYEXfMT6AP6RlAwGwm9kuLrY-UpJRLCAuzxuZqdUvX5h82aD6kdpQsTB8CxRx3183h0NIQi7bQH M1yNrFjXUIk1_UdrHAfP2iR1YPddddsF35pUrNQf6wIyE6OFRh d-iPQQyAt_x6Tmf0sa2I6E3fKLX8_RjYgOCGY1KghrK6pZw37xTb HlXoBJfVFbaftHVomC45L_FOtw1hRZgYL7bCYc6eJdA4CbLmJZ lOe6JNVLqyiQ5Mbpe0YazcavwoEU5ZMTSozvYyPmqwutD5-IhXH0yuIaFcaw44XC0Lo7Lmk0-EjqgATcZmn1YDrfC98UK5C6l5q94_fYeT4ennavT28V_ww3a5v xWoGR8CtIikC6DRJhBO4yKMYl5IBnULiTOze-NJPi8b-A86Lk3iyBOi9mpbAe9sBH9uRymMc-DukHbZNXhnWBn9M95_GHQjkT5j6Kju94aDDJ5oyi1g6wyHVdhD 66qUwFDcTVE7NhzMnA92uMO4U5zDmJ6k2h2Hgc5wfKZR5VwRmr DYpe_ab_9S2GwkV5i-vsHSH_HWrDPVB7BFUUrP9g0NoukJ-guNt1-o=w1723-h969-no?pageId=117956411460675638727

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UKGZ4SA0MO3fOKucaSa884CyjnSZUB1sqnBXFZkxBsGuCgiZk8 T_h6_STQ5I_SUbyy_tee_q4Wv2WyaqH2KwEMUOceD1OeirvHqd xMqOECMEeXS6zw2wHM4nfvRXUp4EHlWTwCuvu5yhivtfzNozzg ARZBGgjny4UhJh8PlpgQ3KANQzjP_Czj7WoWjiVIX4rRlUDTqP RoqBatWfLFomy44uN0CMyoN80o82P3PlHtqjbnVu2qQAYK1Vqr bYNmXU1zlwJOoex3PdlGbYDn9qiwfhCWVR7l4szHhlm6WcuI5M CfslsWQYRwZArVcLuktfaqvJq8jyUUbxBmX0BjoBgXOpBtSVT9 UNQLCtpGfcI2emmFtyyj98_sLLDWlm4LYpDcKyduTsO_FJkeGM uaGc32tWrsheanCiOBAfVMkCRH1VP7-5cXanHHB4fpEVfvjWz1k0h73VHd1-DYigBZlAgypusWHZTo1gOdtu891jFCL-JVzjgNfcvj9NlHCI0_RMxkuYTDdcCyr07oDtmaFi8PYDsB6l7g MQoFbILSDwBg90-vBD6NezChXceoQLZiZFk3v6taY5_pTTKaOrnT89zDNT5L9SB4K 6qREcnWdzx8qYCK_y-OXHevks8id3n0MU1EO9UNV7POZn9wxl2xfTjQOQ0BLEklGlnLS TbwzVaxE9-_qNVQ2TRHRElji6obG0fqoALyviyrn_uKX7Vxzokt4zDFWGcDL gKtMkkhnk-1_d-D3thyn1vIs=w1723-h969-no?pageId=117956411460675638727

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UYDaUKjsd32plAeypj3XR7wDov26bzmJ3nPbZjIABozMBhr6QM ifATfLmk5dya8BfMYUuJIUrxoMm6btzV0epD2DtnHG8AKX3hvd wLol_WDs2pPkK0wkAAoS_rc6QBb58G-zEQEDSehYfJ_XzjNYwkxAJh-m3xHb6vqn3uzNinNtBNSpdnh1hyfirtAiu8poTQCHieCYEoKy-EGgf7EbTiSbVcnmNORidIQz8a8aTRbYLzjtEJ7vXQKoHnsq7-NXaqxziy5R5nWvh8BvIT1ctLxu9u2yCswAZOwYW6zvPRV2nOCP 5Bk3uDUA-EU9zaWUITTGM02hbA4C7cNGj4RIzduCYdTTqRQ4VYXe2TLtvV3 r07RYdGPYSjpBw12cYhgnAahxEIijvOW3EkAo4qqLy9P0TOJj0 r6Gu6-rPDNRUF0uP7C-uOOd3bxqZRWPexVrMt63_zhMClY0J2jYBkHqMUv8SJBp7UTZGa u2VMg0e7gKTpQKqjzUagVFebdst9oOtb57HWcardlF0c4Jqq2r IVXNxi5zV-mdWgZUM3hvbMrgnc0yEmqFMCDm7FBjxbIG_7fWwRrD6eCExS0R Rran01yPDTHUNjs__JJB8-CAjjEvJMg_ha30RpXNlf2iQc7Z90LhDOisPpQaBl2ZQ99h2H2f 1Q3An5WI8qgaSEwaSZa8k3-3JlXLasc_l_A6vXQoSwaTiwTyL292Wq3q-uQY769GMNZ_YVkz6E3QvAtETvda6h403kFvSf4=w1723-h969-no?pageId=117956411460675638727

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jkvORxBIqbIZYMn2Y7aVqpgvUvVUC3HJvPlCnHyJxDm6bgPIv3 D7fKQA7uX6xZ6TyXkL95u4nmIkgvE9FvsB1ZC5prpKTQbq1IAQ J0_u2W1nQ4R6YzHiVI5a1fhxWQy1J7In9OQ-QnhQy163RPXsA2j8uJgyMuHq6xFxbVJxMj7zr9lYWEJEHOPmEZ SQnCZaTDEMfXxtba1CcuYiu4-QP1hI45IsHiNHvlraaoTlVZn0Ao4hXCdvZ07vwzu-9_L56BKeSUEk_gYe_D7vJZUFa2_Hee-UBUlIZjkmoI4Txe_GGu6AYwilylEBwWkU45ZBSw4phMfZwDoTZ-O2J_dDVxqET5lr3GFrKg74fzAvfBYRwgNKc9kJQCo7I0CaSTSf TxiKSc0LlGcdR_ZCLB91XNn_DBX38Q7ewgPjD7N4lhgyWRNkFo y0E-zUGsNGxSdbUNsInu-sXoSsC1iWUYSpR8W8EYnxIlQJzlaxDNvXbD1V_GHmZ8K_9L996 11He7ixr1xpmYyZNqrBZTO_ZL9cYRUkrIm1tHLjA0Dk8qTywxG 2JklZq4X2DOM1G-giEeCw4iAL4PztNL3Yz-Dertr6MOyKrUfcajqfuJRDwDSCCWGCfDFimdfAdv5Dod70FK12 fOCPoGlLw4UwN-m5WYSgJQaEquwaj8CkipZD6xg1OYglzYXUFT3AdrQxdJbp4WsG MRRNjGGzhKI-2Dp4asIznAimIEyFVHR0vlPZqaAQXCE6xEuXrqfPP2k=w1723-h969-no?pageId=117956411460675638727

[ProSpec]

Its probably 20 years since I was last in the Yorkshire moors. Used to love that area due to the many ways into the stages. But the outbreak of Foot and Mouth changed things and i would imagine that the present Corona virus will kill even more off.

[AnttiL]

It's interesting watching the local rally onboards to see how the old stages were (although changes always occur during decades). Here's Tour of Hamsterley 2013, using the same roads which formed the Hamsterley/County Durham Stage in the 80's/90's.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-yM4vGeDDvZ1Miip2hw10rX9yzl_j5Yw

I will probably add that to rally-maps, but here are the three first stages on one map https://www.mapfab.com/map/ASDo/Tour-of-Hamsterley-2013

Grizedale, Kielder, Dalby etc. are well available on Youtube. Usually searching with the rally title and year, perhaps with the stage number (like SS01) will get you somewhere. You just need to know which stage was ran in which rally and as which stage number.

[HKSjbg]

Yeah I found a few great onboards from last year’s Riponian, Gale Rigg has got to be my new favourite stage in that region - there’s a noticeable lack of hay-bale chicanes. Tom Cave & Matt Edwards also have a few good ones on their channels - Pirelli, Scottish Rally and the like.

There’s quite a lot of content of Grizedale from various channels/drivers - I just need 20 minutes to sit and watch it without interruption!

[AnttiL]

Yeah. I often challenge myself and try to pick the route onto the map from the onboard alone (like I did for Hamsterley above). Good fun, but hours pass easily like minutes :D

[HKSjbg]

If only I could do that for a living, I would happily make painstakingly complex rally stage maps through onboards 😁

[AnttiL]

This is a great Kielder onboard from Pirelli 2019. The stage is called The Forks and it has run as Bewshaugh and Broomylinn under different configuration. The first 5 min are quite technical, then it gets very fast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XiPUxfpru8

This is the route, but in reverse https://www.rally-maps.com/Pirelli-International-Rally-2018/The-Forks

[HKSjbg]

Thanks, that’s my lunchtime viewing sorted!

[AnttiL]

This thread inspired me to fine-tune my design for a Carlisle-based Rally GB. At first I attempted my previously mentioned idea of moving the cars to Wales for Sunday, but the liaisons became unbearable without using remote services. I thought it would be a great idea to do Grizedale on Saturday afternoon and then just continue over to Wales, but I forgot the cars need to be serviced before that.

If only Friday would be driven in Lake District, then the drivers would have two days of driving in Wales, but that would require another long liaison to mid-Wales, which I doubt they will want to do. So in the end I ditched the idea of combining Wales and Lake District.

I even tried to make a schedule for the rally using the formula of one minute per kilometre (stage or liaison) with 5-10 minutes added to the equation. The same service and regroup times are used as on real rallies of today. I think it worked out fine and the Saturday structure is close to that of Wales Rally GB 2017 with some night stages.

The full itinerary is here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQpLHyj9C4dWC-0WXCeCH7OeyKnLCdS6nf7Vz5dtjLh64agCn7vfB_AUl2uTqppa vU4Xj1hUY0hljEO/pubhtml) and the map here (https://www.mapfab.com/map/ASBA/Lake-District-Rally-GB)

Thursday super special is Lowther (used in 1986, modified a bit).

Friday consists of a leg North with Twiglees, Craik, Redesdale, Falstone and Pundershaw. I have modified the stages to remove the most straight sections and sometimes adding some new roads.

Saturday goes to Grizedale (combined West and East stages) through Wythop and Comb. I faced again the problem of going to Grizedale and thinking "what's next", because there is very few known stages near it. Of course it would be possible to find new stages or maybe there's something I'm not aware of.
Thus, after the first round of these three stages the cars go to Hamsterley, which is driven twice with a single run of Stang in between (this could also be a super special as well). The second run of Hamsterley is preceded by a regroup to ensure there's enough time between two runs and also to make sure the cars are in time for the televised stage. After the service the Wythop-Comb-Grizedale loop is repeated, most likely with darkness falling.

Sunday is driven at West Kielder and on Scotland's side, relatively close to the service park. I chose the Bewshaugh stage whose onboard I posted last night, but it ends after the technical section as it would suit the current cars the best. Power stage is then Newcastleton, on roads which have been a part of the Kershope stage in the 90's. The ending of the stage is shown in the other direction on this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbMdEhtLFKQ) until 1:20. It would make up great helicopter shots over the river bank. The ending would then be on tarmac here (https://www.google.fi/maps/@55.1427362,-2.7845923,3a,75y,59.86h,82.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbrUu73FzgZh1rLQFNiamrw!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656) and the podium up on the hill.

[doubled1978]

This thread inspired me to fine-tune my design for a Carlisle-based Rally GB. At first I attempted my previously mentioned idea of moving the cars to Wales for Sunday, but the liaisons became unbearable without using remote services. I thought it would be a great idea to do Grizedale on Saturday afternoon and then just continue over to Wales, but I forgot the cars need to be serviced before that.

If only Friday would be driven in Lake District, then the drivers would have two days of driving in Wales, but that would require another long liaison to mid-Wales, which I doubt they will want to do. So in the end I ditched the idea of combining Wales and Lake District.

I faced again the problem of going to Grizedale and thinking "what's next", because there is very few known stages near it. Of course it would be possible to find new stages or maybe there's something I'm not aware of.

I even tried to make a schedule for the rally using the formula of 1 km (stage or liaison) = 1 minute) + 5-10 min, with the same service and regroup times as on real rallies of today. I think it worked out fine and the Saturday structure is close to that of Wales Rally GB 2017 with some night stages.

The full itinerary is here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQpLHyj9C4dWC-0WXCeCH7OeyKnLCdS6nf7Vz5dtjLh64agCn7vfB_AUl2uTqppa vU4Xj1hUY0hljEO/pubhtml) and the map here (https://www.mapfab.com/map/ASBA/Lake-District-Rally-GB)

Thursday super special is Lowther (used in 1986, modified a bit).

Friday consists of a leg North with Twiglees, Craik, Redesdale, Falstone and Pundershaw. I have modified the stages to remove the most straight sections and sometimes adding some new roads.

Saturday goes to Grizedale (combined West and East stages) through Wythop and Comb. After the first round of these stages the cars go to Hamsterley, which is driven twice with a single run of Stang in between (this could also be a super special as well). The second run of Hamsterley is preceded by a regroup to ensure there's enough time between two runs and also to make sure the cars are in time for the televised stage. After the service the Wythop-Comb-Grizedale loop is repeated, most likely with darkness falling.

Sunday is driven at West Kielder and on Scotland's side, relatively close to the service park. I chose the Bewshaugh stage whose onboard I posted last night, but it ends after the technical section as it would suit the current cars the best. Power stage is then Newcastleton, on roads which have been a part of the Kershope stage in the 90's. The ending of the stage is shown in the other direction on this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbMdEhtLFKQ) until 1:20. It would make up great helicopter shots over the river bank. The ending would then be on tarmac here (https://www.google.fi/maps/@55.1427362,-2.7845923,3a,75y,59.86h,82.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbrUu73FzgZh1rLQFNiamrw!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656) and the podium up on the hill.


This is awesome...would be great to go to those locations again for WRC.. you never know, someone who could make use of it might get hold of it and start a process....here’s hoping anyway!

[AnttiL]

This is awesome...would be great to go to those locations again for WRC.. you never know, someone who could make use of it might get hold of it and start a process....here’s hoping anyway!

Thanks! I know that the real organizers could also put together this kind of schedule (for sure a better one), but it's down to other things (coughmoneycough) to get the rally arranged.

[HKSjbg]

Depends on the local tourism board I guess as ‘Wales’ is currently the sponsor of Rally GB. There’s no reason why Cumbria/Northumberland/Scottish Borders/Dumfries and Galloway wouldn’t want to promote tourism in and around the various beauty spots in that part of the world. Whether the lot of them could pool together to fund a WRC round is another matter...

[doubled1978]

Depends on the local tourism board I guess as ‘Wales’ is currently the sponsor of Rally GB. There’s no reason why Cumbria/Northumberland/Scottish Borders/Dumfries and Galloway wouldn’t want to promote tourism in and around the various beauty spots in that part of the world. Whether the lot of them could pool together to fund a WRC round is another matter...

Of course, but sometimes it just takes the right person to see something like this, and then the wheels begin to turn. Hey it might just be something fun for us speculate about on the forum, but you never know..
Either way it’s given me something to pour over for an afternoon in lockdown, so thanks Antti!

[AnttiL]

Someone else mapped RAC 1989! https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1989

[Franky]

Someone else mapped RAC 1989! https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1989

Only a couple of stages to map :D

[doubled1978]

Someone else mapped RAC 1989! https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1989

Great, just had a quick look and the Hafren stages are quite interesting. Hafren 1 finished in what is now the car park....it’s quite a good downhill section.
Seems quite strange now for the rally at the end of the day in Wales, to go all the way back to Nottingham overnight in the East Midlands, a few short stages the next morning and then all the way back to Grizedale in the West. That’s a lot of liaison for a few short stages.

[the sniper]

Depends on the local tourism board I guess as ‘Wales’ is currently the sponsor of Rally GB. There’s no reason why Cumbria/Northumberland/Scottish Borders/Dumfries and Galloway wouldn’t want to promote tourism in and around the various beauty spots in that part of the world. Whether the lot of them could pool together to fund a WRC round is another matter...

The problem is, you're trying to appease too many chiefs. Look at some of the compromises that have been made on Wales Rally GB over the years to appease the politicians who pay the bills. At least all the politicians there are supporters of Wales as a whole at the end of the day. If you're splitting it between Cumbria/Northumberland/Scottish Borders/Dumfries and Galloway, maybe Yorkshire too, who pays what and who get's the most out of it? Plus out of those I think only Yorkshire has an organised approach to marketing themselves.

Prior to Convid 19 I thought there were only three alternatives to Wales Rally GB; a Scottish based/local Gov funded event, a Northern Irish based/Gov funded event, a Northern English event or an event like that modelled by Antti or me, but with a large private sponsor, probably from a company headed by a stereotypically proud Brexiteer Englishmen keen to take Rallying back to the Golden Age! Post Convid 19, I think the last option is the only realistic alternative, or only option if Wales pull out! For example, JCB Rally GB does have a certain ring to it... :D

[AndyRAC]

The organisers of RallyGB have put all their eggs in the Welsh money basket; when that stops (as it surely will sooner or later) then they'll have a real problem. The event has been in Wales since 2000, and also, during that time, the visibility, media coverage of the sport has fallen immensely. One wonders if other regions have shown any real interest during this time; but baulked as the money needed was not good value?

I've always maintained that if the sport and event were healthy, then commercial sponsors would provide the backing, rather than any regions/tourist boards. In an ideal world, there would a rotation between regions/areas, for example, on a 3 year basis - so that large parts of the country get to see the event every so often. It's also a way of freshening up the event; it has to be said, it has become a bit too familiar, with most of the same stages year after year.

There was a time when the unveiling of the old RAC route was something to get excited about; now you more or less know what stages will be used - though sometimes they pull a 'surprise' with a new 'spectator stage' not used since 19xx

[AnttiL]

The event has been in Wales since 2000

---

There was a time when the unveiling of the old RAC route was something to get excited about; now you more or less know what stages will be used - though sometimes they pull a 'surprise' with a new 'spectator stage' not used since 19xx

If we look at this closer: all the forest stages have been driven solely in Wales since 1997. The last year with a full day of spectator stages in England was 1999.

In my mind I split Wales to three regions: North, Mid (Myherin, Hafren etc) and South. From 1997 to 2000 it was South and Mid Wales stages, from 2001 to 2007 only South Wales. In 2008 they added again Mid Wales stages until 2012 with 2011 being an oddball year being based in Builth Wells and covering stages all across Wales. Since 2013 it has then been a mix of North and Mid Wales stages.

I'm not completely familiar with the history of RAC rally but I believe Elsi and Gwydir (in its 2019 form) are new stages introduced in the last decade. Brenig has featured in 1992 and 1993 but not sure of the route.

[HKSjbg]

I find myself even now wishing it would at least move back to mid-south Wales i.e. Crychan, Halfway, Epynt, Radnor etc. just for a change. That might have something to do with Radnor being my ‘local’ stage - unless WRGB came to Haye Park or Forest of Dean :p

In an ideal world I’d like to see it rotate a bit so we see the cars tackling central Scottish stages like Drummond Hill, Craigvinean etc. Yorkshire, the Lakes and Kielder/Scottish Borders.

But to be honest the way things are going I’ll just be glad if it keeps going at all.

[Simmi]

One wonders if other regions have shown any real interest during this time; but baulked as the money needed was not good value?

I heard that Welcome to Yorkshire were looking at rallying (I'm not sure how seriously), I guess around 2010 or so, but opted to put their focus into cycling and bringing the Tour de France over. I don't think there can be any doubt that cycling proved to be the right decision for the region.

Now they've got the opportunity to look at something else, I think unfortunately they aren't currently in a position of strength.

[AndyRAC]

I heard that Welcome to Yorkshire were looking at rallying (I'm not sure how seriously), I guess around 2010 or so, but opted to put their focus into cycling and bringing the Tour de France over. I don't think there can be any doubt that cycling proved to be the right decision for the region.

Now they've got the opportunity to look at something else, I think unfortunately they aren't currently in a position of strength.

I think it was pretty serious if memory serves; however it was an IRC round, which could have been good. But, the chance to host the Grand Depart came up - and its a no brainer really. Massive major sporting event, huge influx of visitors, and international media.... and the legacy of the Tour de Yorkshire which sees massive crowds, even with only a handful of World Tour teams.
Simply put - Rallying couldn't/ can't compete with that.

Also, as result of the backing of the Grand Depart, Welcome to Yorkshire pulled their funding for the Dalby round of the UCI MTB XCO World Cup, and sadly, it has never returned; which is were Nino won his first Elite race.

[mole55]

This entire thread gave me an idea.

An entirely tarmac Wales Rally GB. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ7KVXjrwSAn4yxj_ixbHCYlA-Eojq44sD-RMGdeAcH3Nv6GTYs0n-99JzJZUv3R4yLAW08Z9syPVzW/pubhtml)

I've mostly stuck to stages that are known to work, for example most of the stages on Friday are from Rali Bae Ceredigion, with one stage I straight-up made up, and one long stage on the Epynt ranges, as run on the Tour of Epynt 2011. Saturday is a bit weird, as most of the day's mileage is over the border, taken from the Three Shires, and it runs into the night, with the entire second loop being night stages. However I feel it could work, especially with a national/historic rally doing a single loop between the two loops of the international field, with Eastnor Park feeling a lot like the spectator stages of RACs gone by. In addition, Caerwent would be a unique stage within the WRC, with it normally being used to host single venues.

Finally, Sunday is 3 stages I just made up, looking for suitable roads in South Wales. From looking at Google Earth, they all seem fast, bumpy and narrow, like a typical Irish stage, and like a lot of the Rali Bae Ceredigion stages.

Obviously, an actual organiser could do much better, probably ditching the Three Shires stages, but a tarmac Wales Rally GB is certainly possible, and would be a great way to shake the event up.

[AnttiL]

Your spreadsheet isn't public, but the idea sounds fun

[AnttiL]

Apparently some radical plans were in mind for this year, but now it's all been put to hold and the rally will be same ol' in case it runs https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/radical-rally-gb-plans-put-on-hold-by-covid-19/

Although, I have to agree with this


“It’s that age-old thing with Rally GB, isn’t it? Because it once toured around the country, we feel we have to apologise for it staying in one place – but then you get into the car and drive through Myherin or Hafren and you realise that actually, these really are some of the best roads anywhere in the world.”

[HKSjbg]

I wonder what they would have done that was ‘radical’ while staying in North Wales and having alluded to having to check out the forests in order to do that - so not necessarily public roads.

[AnttiL]

I wonder what they would have done that was ‘radical’ while staying in North Wales and having alluded to having to check out the forests in order to do that - so not necessarily public roads.

Just checking out any new roads requires a lot of work in the forests, negotiating with the locals and landowners. Meanwhile, it's easier to just renew the old contracts for the same stages.

[AndyRAC]

I wonder what they would have done that was ‘radical’ while staying in North Wales and having alluded to having to check out the forests in order to do that - so not necessarily public roads.

What their definition of 'radical' means maybe different to somebody else. To me, radical, would be running Clocaenog as maybe one stage, requiring a road closure; as opposed to splitting it into Clocaenog West/ East. Or possibly linking Alwen, Brenig, with a major part of Clocaenog....(they did similar in 2018, but only used a small part of Clocaenog) there are all sorts of possibilities in there. I often take the MTB bike there and there are plenty of roads in there.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Surely 'radical' plans must've been more than just some different Welsh stages, or doing them in a different direction/combination.

The fact that Iain Campbell mentions that the old rally 'toured around the country' means there were thoughts of using stages elsewhere, like the Lake District ?

[doubled1978]

What their definition of 'radical' means maybe different to somebody else. To me, radical, would be running Clocaenog as maybe one stage, requiring a road closure; as opposed to splitting it into Clocaenog West/ East. Or possibly linking Alwen, Brenig, with a major part of Clocaenog....(they did similar in 2018, but only used a small part of Clocaenog) there are all sorts of possibilities in there. I often take the MTB bike there and there are plenty of roads in there.


It could have been using some old stages not used for a while, for example others have mentioned Talesin, and there is Coed-y-Brenin also, which from the going out and checking the roads comment sounds plausible.
Clocaenog is an issue for the organisation these days as it’s tough to prevent lots of people getting in without paying. If they use big chunks of it as they did years ago, it’s pretty easy to get in without paying and the topography is relatively flat. It’s not a coincidence that most of the other stages routes are designed so it’s a long uphill walk to reach the stage from the public roads.

[the sniper]

Hopefully in time me and Antti will be to add something of interest regarding Yorkshire... ;)

Big thanks to Antti for doing the plotting on this one, on maps I acquired last year: https://www.rally-maps.com/National-Breakdown-Rally-1987

Relevant to today's news, I noticed that the 1986 International Welsh Rally maps have been uploaded too! I should add that I had nothing to do with this one: https://www.rally-maps.com/International-Welsh-Rally-1986

I am intrigued to know what these radical changes might have been. Hopefully in time we'll be able to find out, though I doubt it'll be possible before the actual route is announced at least, so not to overshadow that. I am somewhat cautious though, as IMS/MSUK have been known to lean on hyperbole in the past. I do wonder if it could have been a return to the forests around Epynt, with the itinerary looking similar to 2011?

[HKSjbg]

Relevant to today's news, I noticed that the 1986 International Welsh Rally maps have been uploaded too! I should add that I had nothing to do with this one.

400km all crammed into one day! The mind boggles

[the sniper]

400km all crammed into one day! The mind boggles

Rally Maps actually shows that incorrectly, the vast majority of the rally would have taken part between Saturday morning and Sunday afternoon, so over two days. But it probably would have been a near continuous rally overnight in that era. I think I might have the itinerary for that one somewhere.

The itinerary for the National Breakdown are the accurate planned timings.

[HKSjbg]

ewrc-results.com shows it as one leg, so yes very unlikely all 38 stages were run in one lot! But the date listed for the event is 3rd-4th May

[doubled1978]

ewrc-results.com shows it as one leg, so yes very unlikely all 38 stages were run in one lot! But the date listed for the event is 3rd-4th May

I don’t think there was an overnight halt as such back then, so it probably would count as 1 leg. They used did used to go straight through, perhaps an hour rest here and there... it was hard enough spectating let alone competing!

[AndyRAC]

I am somewhat cautious though, as IMS/MSUK have been known to lean on hyperbole in the past. I do wonder if it could have been a return to the forests around Epynt, with the itinerary looking similar to 2011?

Exactly, which is why I said what their 'radical', maybe different to what others mean by radical. Their BRC announcement a few years ago got people talking, then when it was revealed, it was.....nothing of the sort.

Epynt would be a welcome return; Halfway, Crychan, plus the option of some tarmac - and it can accomodate plenty of spectators, and other facilities.

[Steve Boyd]

and there is Coed-y-Brenin
Coed-y-Brenin is currently off-limits to rallying due to mountain biking & other activities, though there were times when the RAC, Welsh International and Gwynedd Stages would have had three or four stages there. Stages have also been run in the past in Beddgelert & Drws-y-Nant, though they are a bit on the short side for modern events.

[Steve Boyd]

I don’t think there was an overnight halt as such back then, so it probably would count as 1 leg. They used did used to go straight through, perhaps an hour rest here and there... it was hard enough spectating let alone competing!
It was usual to have a service and rest halt in Aberystwyth with cars spending a few hours in the re-group giving crews enough time for a couple of hours sleep and a shower before tackling the run south on the Sunday.

[AnttiL]

Surely 'radical' plans must've been more than just some different Welsh stages, or doing them in a different direction/combination.

The fact that Iain Campbell mentions that the old rally 'toured around the country' means there were thoughts of using stages elsewhere, like the Lake District ?

I agree with you and I also thought maybe they would have done one day in Grizedale instead of Mid-Wales? Just adding two new or new-old stages isn't really "radical".

Or maybe they would have driven one day on tarmac like mole55 suggested?

[AnttiL]

I wrote in my blog about the crazy 1985 RAC itinerary, partly the same thoughts we've had in this thread https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/04/12/wrc-history-rac-rally-1985/

I also heard there will be more old BRC maps in rally-maps soon.

[doubled1978]

Coed-y-Brenin is currently off-limits to rallying due to mountain biking & other activities, though there were times when the RAC, Welsh International and Gwynedd Stages would have had three or four stages there. Stages have also been run in the past in Beddgelert & Drws-y-Nant, though they are a bit on the short side for modern events.

I remember that the Coed-y-Brenin complex was quite big and there were a few stages in there, I didn’t know it was not really available to rallying anymore tho..shame.

[AndyRAC]

Yes, Coed-Y-Brenin, lots of Yorkshire, Sherwood Forest (which hosted the Dukeries) and many more have been lost; due to a combination of not being used and/or Mountain bike centres...

[doubled1978]

[QUOTE=AnttiL;1245898]I wrote in my blog about the crazy 1985 RAC itinerary, partly the same thoughts we've had in this thread https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/04/12/wrc-history-rac-rally-1985/

A really good read that, and you’re dead right there was a lot cruising when the rallies were so long. I remember 1991, we went to Dalby on the last day and it was literally like a parade, nobody trying....
Today when you spectate, every stage the guys are on it as every km matters...and normally most of the top cars are still in the rally at the end. It’s unusual to have only a few top cars left.
I think I said earlier, when you really break it down it’s the sense of adventure that I really miss, more or less everything else is better now, yes the cars themselves were pretty cool at various times. The route often had competitors and spectators trying to use the same roads at the same time, resulting in some outrageous driving (from both), today it would all be caught on camera phone and rallies banned immediately with some of the stuff I’ve seen on public roads.
Lastly I can’t not mention how bad the timing was, the rallies were almost always running late...massive gaps in the running order, you could have a few cars through and then no cars for 20 minutes or something...guys running way out of position in the order, honestly it was all over the place at times.

[HKSjbg]

...many more have been lost; due to a combination of not being used...

When you say ‘lost’ what exactly do you mean? I understand in the case of Wykeham, for example, it’s lost because a landslide means there’s no longer any through-route there... Some forests that used to be rally stages are quite clearly, even from google maps, overgrown and there’s no longer a wide enough track between the trees.

I had assumed that after rallies like the Dukeries, the Sunseeker and Tour of Hamsterley were lost (revived as a circuit rally in the case of the Dukeries) there was just no appetite to bring rally cars back into those forests, likely from local council do-gooders.

Is it a bit over simplified to say if there is a forestry logging route maintained then the roads should be suitable for rallies?

[the sniper]

Coed-y-Brenin is currently off-limits to rallying due to mountain biking & other activities, though there were times when the RAC, Welsh International and Gwynedd Stages would have had three or four stages there. Stages have also been run in the past in Beddgelert & Drws-y-Nant, though they are a bit on the short side for modern events.

I've been led to believe the stages on east side of the A470 are now unavailable as you say but Maesgwm is theoretically still an option? I can't really see it being used though, as managing the spectator traffic/access wouldn't be easy. I imagine it'd be hard to justify the faff required for such a short stage.

Drws-y-Nant was apparently due to make a return on a National rally this year.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lake District stages must be the closest other forest stages outside of Wales.

And they are still in use - https://www.malcolmwilson.co.uk/spectators-2020/

[AndyRAC]

Ah, the Whinlatter forest; which used to be double usage, morning about 9 o'clock, then in the afternoon about 2 o'clock. Then was cut back to just the morning, and is now run quite early, about 7;30. Which gives enough time for the rally to have finished the stage, and handed back to the forestry mid morning. It surely can't be long before access is pulled. About 5+ years ago, there was a tweet from the FC saying the rally would soon be finished, and we can get back to normal - it was subsequently deleted.

I happen to think, if the sport was a lot more popular/ high profile, and held a bit of influence, it could possibly find a way of still accessing some of these forests. But, its not, so it can't. I mean, it's usually one day a year, plus a few days either side to set up, and then clean up. They still have near 360 days to themselves.

I do miss my trip to the Sherwood Pines for the Dukeries; a nice drive through Cheshire and Peak District in early June, followed by a day of rallying, and a relaxed drive back. One could see the change there in the last 10+ years. The car park was extended, Go Ape was added, they hosted concerts, etc in addition to the MTB. It was always packed, even when the rally was there; lots of MTB and families with picnics on the large grass area.

[HKSjbg]

It is sad indeed. I hope we still have plenty of forests available in Wales at least for years to come. I wouldn’t be surprised if in a decade we have not much more than Wales, Kielder and a few spots around Scotland :(

Rallying’s a far less wasteful use of land than circuit racing if you ask me!

As an aside should one of the mods rename this thread? Maybe something to do with it being about all things British forest stages?

[HKSjbg]

Since I’m still bored back at work (I’m on rotation with my colleague, they won’t let me just stay at home the whole time :() I have been looking into the viability of a Scotland-based Rally GB.

I knew it had to include the Perthshire stages as well as the stages close to Dumfries (i.e. where the RSAC Scottish has been based since about 1997) and realised Glasgow is in a pretty good position to be host city and service park HQ. Not only is it the most populous city in Scotland, but you can be at the start of the first forest stage, Greskine, in an hour-ish and similar time to get to Carron Valley to the north (though this would probably be better served as the power stage, not the first of its leg, given it’s reservoir-side location).

With that in mind here is just a list of possible stages and their kilometerage:

1. Bellahouston Park - 2.08km
2. Greskine - 17.82km
3. Ae - 14.32km
4. Twiglees - 10.28km
5. Castle O’er - 9.72km
6. Craik - 14.81km
7. Cardrona - 10.27km
8. Yair - 8.87km
9. Black Loch - 9.82km
10. Glentrool - 29.71km
11. Elibank - 19.89km
12. Carron Valley - 8.36km
13. Loch Ard - 33.52km
14. Drummond Hill - 18.66km
15. Griffin - 21.26km
16. Errochty - 17.68km
17. Craigvinean - 17.89km
18. Scone Palace - 3.37km
19. Knockhill - 3.57km
20. Devilla - 9.91km

281.81km

Where possible, the stages are the longest length I could find on ewrc-results.com and rally-maps.com and from either last year’s R.A.C. Rally or the most recent Rally Scotland. Some exceptions are Glasgow’s Bellahouston Park taken from the itinerary of the 1987 Scottish, Yair, Black Loch and Glentrool taken from Mobil 1 Rally Championship from 1999 :D and I think the oldest forest stage length I took was Devilla, also from the ‘87 Scottish.

Assuming there will be some from that list that are no longer available or suitable, there’s still a lot of km around given that 281.81km is all from single passes!

[AnttiL]

I've also been bored so I fine-tuned my Carlisle based WRC Fantasy Route. There's now onboards for almost every stage. I also added one stage combining both Twiglees and Castle O'er, as well as the Raby Castle super special. There's onboard for almost all stages.

http://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/04/15/fantasy-routes-wrc-carlisle-rally-gb/

[the sniper]

To get a rough idea of what forest tracks look like now where they haven't been used for rallying in years, or where I can't find onboards, I use a site called Geograph. People upload random photographs to fill the grid squares on the OS Map, so there's a lot of pictures of tracks and paths in random places in forests and on moors across the country, though some of the images are a few years years old.

For example, there's a remote part of Myherin with a water splash that hasn't been used on Rally GB at least since 2008 (https://www.rally-maps.com/Wales-Rally-GB-2008/Myherin), seen on this onboard @ 3m47s: https://youtu.be/ngVX0t7jXSg?t=227

Here's that spot on Geograph: https://www.geograph.org.uk/mapper/combined.php#15/52.3999/-3.7708

It's a bit cumbersome to use, but useful particularly for getting a somewhat recent impression of the conditions on the ground for stages we see on maps used in the 80s and 90s. Red numbers are supposed to be more recent photos.

[the sniper]

Since I’m still bored back at work (I’m on rotation with my colleague, they won’t let me just stay at home the whole time :() I have been looking into the viability of a Scotland-based Rally GB.

Scotland would be my ideal 'local' replacement for Wales if an RAC style event isn't possible. There's so much choice there, many nice (if rougher) stages and fantastic scenery. The three editions of Rally of Scotland show what an event could/would look like there. I'd just add an extra day in the middle of any of those itineraries on the Saturday with a rough itinerary of:

Cardrona 1
Elibank 1
Yair 1
[Hawick Tyre Service]
Craik
Castle O’er
Twiglees
Cardrona 2
Elibank 2
Yair 2

Base the event at the Royal Highland Centre, Ingliston near Edinburgh (and right next to its Airport). Centrally there you're just an hour away from stages in the North, Borders and Trossachs (Middle). I'd run the Borders day on the Saturday to attract more spectators from the south and Marshals, as I'd be using six stages there.

[AnttiL]

Yair 2

Base the event at the Royal Highland Centre, Ingliston near Edinburgh (and right next to its Airport). Centrally there you're just an hour away from stages in North, Borders and Trossachs (Middle). I'd run the Borders day on the Saturday to attract more spectators from the south and Marshals, as I'd be using six stages there.

And you could still go to Kielder as well. In 1986 they had a night break and a super special in Ingliston.

[the sniper]

And you could still go to Kielder as well. In 1986 they had a night break and a super special in Ingliston.

The only problem is, in this scenario Scotland would be paying the bills, and there's no chance they'd let it stray into England!

[AnttiL]

To get a rough idea of what forest tracks look like now where they haven't been used for rallying in years, or where I can't find onboards, I use a site called Geograph. People upload random photographs to fill the grid squares on the OS Map, so there's a lot of pictures of tracks and paths in random places in forests and on moors across the country, though some of the images are a few years years old.

That is awesome, thanks! In many cases it was a guessing whether a road on the map is a tarmac lane, a gravel road, a deteriorated track or just a path. OpenStreetMap tells the levels sometimes better, sometimes not. And Google Maps are sometimes badly outdated and missing on the smallest roads.

My earlier plans had Wythop use this bridleway upwards (https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2246355) to remove the long straight, but it's probably too narrow. I bet they would have done it in the RAC days!

Here's the situation in Grizedale East https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2129490. I believe this is the junction where Vatanen rolled in 1989, looking better https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2568340

[HKSjbg]

Base the event at the Royal Highland Centre, Ingliston near Edinburgh (and right next to its Airport). Centrally there you're just an hour away from stages in the North, Borders and Trossachs (Middle).

I had considered that - being a showground with plenty of tarmac sections it looks ideal. I just didn’t know whether closer to Edinburgh would be worse for liaisons and whether airport traffic would cause problems for rally traffic coming in and out (or vice versa).

The thought of keeping it free for a Super Special also entered my mind, then I got distracted by finally finding out where Devilla forest is :D

Edit: just had another look and Ingliston is a shorter drive to Cardrona than mostly anywhere in Glasgow to Greskine

[AnttiL]

Not mapped by me, but here's some Welsh stage history, 10 editions of this event between 1977 and 1989

https://www.rally-maps.com/Audi-Sport-Rally-1989

[the sniper]

Not mapped by me, but here's some Welsh stage history, 10 editions of this event between 1977 and 1989

https://www.rally-maps.com/Audi-Sport-Rally-1989

Fantastic. This rally was often used as an unofficial pre-event test for the RAC and was the final round of the second-tier National Championship. It was also in the BRC some years. The organising club's (Wolverhampton and South Staffs Car Club) website is great and quite unique, as they have uploaded a large amount of achieve material, including competitors documents and Autosport reports from their past events. 1979 for example: http://www.wssccrally.org.uk/RallyPage/1979-rally/1979-autosport-18th-october/ The full list is here: http://www.wssccrally.org.uk/#rallies

It's a shame other clubs haven't shown similar initiative, as many have great histories but are becoming increasingly irrelevant and those memories are being lost over time. To be fair though, the WSSCC obviously must have benefited from having someone with the website building knowledge and passion for doing the work they did there.

[AnttiL]

Rally-maps.com seems to have received a big resource of old British maps...now for Scottish Rally 1984 https://www.rally-maps.com/Scottish-Rally-1984 50 stages!

[HKSjbg]

Not sure if this may be of any interest to anyone but I drew up a rough representation of useable forests and rallies in Great Britain and how they could be linked up to make potential rally itineraries:

https://i.postimg.cc/fSsj0zbk/7-ECED984-2549-486-A-A39-C-0-E67-F778526-B.png (https://postimg.cc/fSsj0zbk)

The colour coding is a bit inconsistent but I’m limited in what I can see and differentiate with colour-blindness :(

The red loops are any forests that as far as I am aware are unable to be the sole venue for all a rally’s forest stages. Blue loops are small national level rallies. Yellow loops are either bigger rallies or a potential combined rally (Carlisle based event, a South-West Wales, or a Dumfries based event for example). There are two green loops; the current WRGB and a combo of stages to the east of Dumfries and Perth & Kinross (a fantasy Scottish-based RGB).

Some are a bit of a guess, like the one on the east coast of Scotland where the Grampian Stages Rally is held.

In Yorkshire I’ve grouped the Riponian and the Malton rallies separately and then together as one potential rally.

Interestingly Wales has so much more combos of forests that could be linked up for rallies of all levels from WRC and down. I’ve grouped Clocaenog and Penmachno together as one i.e. the Cambrian, but they could be in their own red loops too

https://i.postimg.cc/N5gS3Yxg/DE32-D8-FA-7-A68-4328-8924-BC31-C5767-D10.png (https://postimg.cc/N5gS3Yxg)

There’s a couple I’ve assumed are still available: Margam is not used as far as I’m aware but surely could still be used if a bigger rally down that way was planned (considering the Red Kite Stages pretty much only makes use of Resolven/Rheola/Rhondda). The other is Brechfa: not used in WRGB for a while and I’m 99% certain there are no national rallies that go there, however there is a wind farm up there so we can assume the roads are still maintain to a good level.

I might label this later on but it’s enough of an assault on the eyes as it is :D

Edit: I checked last year’s Red Kite itinerary and Margam was indeed used.

[AndyRAC]

What it does show, to me, is which forests are now used, and maybe which are underused nowadays. I haven't been to Tywi since the 2004 Mutiny/Severn Valley stages; I'm not even sure its still available.
Around 2000 onwards, I'd attend between 25-30 events a year - and quite often you'd visit the same area/forest for many different events throughout the year. The number of events which have gone is quite sad, but almost inevitable.

I may do a list when I get time, in regards to the events and forests used; for example, the Clocaenog/Alwen/Brenig area would host; RAC (WRC), Cambrian (BTRDA), Vauxhall Rally of Wales(BRC) and the Astra Stages (ANCRO). The latter two events no longer exist.

[AnttiL]

Finally some actual news...nothing really new, but still

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-unusual-problem-facing-rally-gbs-2020-calendar-hopes/

[AndyRAC]

Finally some actual news...nothing really new, but still

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-unusual-problem-facing-rally-gbs-2020-calendar-hopes/

At the moment, it can't go ahead. Looking forward, it may go ahead, but I wonder if they'll allow spectators. Would they run without spectators? And will there still be a 14 day quarantine period? Everything is up in the air. The only saving grace is we still have nearly 5 months to the event.
Silverstone are hoping to hold two F1 races, yet had to cancel their MotoGP round......some sports are more equal/bigger than others.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

5 months should be long enough. If the number of Covid cases/deaths continue to reduce in the next couple of months, all elite sports should be running again.

With fans is another matter though. The Welsh wont even let people from England visit and just that relaxation could be weeks away.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.dai-sport.com/rallying-set-for-return-in-wales-but-with-drivers-only/

[Steve Boyd]

5 months should be long enough. If the number of Covid cases/deaths continue to reduce in the next couple of months, all elite sports should be running again.

With fans is another matter though. The Welsh wont even let people from England visit and just that relaxation could be weeks away.
Motorsport News dated May 27 has a report that quotes Iain Campbell saying WRGB won't run without spectators. Ticket revenue is a significant part of the budget and without ticket sales to specatators there won't be an event.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

There are other WRC events due ahead of GB. Whichever way those rallies are run then Rally GB could be under pressure to do the same.

The WRC will be desperate to have as many events as possible this year to make a 'proper Championship'. Wales dropping out wont go down well.

Maybe the WRC promoter could help out with funding if Wales cant run without fans.

[PLuto]

It is nonsense to make rally without fans. You cannot manage that nobody will be there...

[the sniper]

It is nonsense to make rally without fans. You cannot manage that nobody will be there...

Rallies with no fans are a British speciality! :D Though you're right, nowadays with the likes of Rally Maps and ewrc, ect, there's a lot of information that can be easily found by even a casual fan. It'd be very difficult to keep not inconsiderable numbers of spectators away now. Personally I don't think having people turn up is too much of a risk Convid 19 wise, but there could be traffic chaos without organisation/accommodation of parking.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rally GB Cancellation is when not if...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/rally-gb-cancelation-matter-of-when-not-if

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Q & A https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/qa-the-challenges-facing-2020s-rally-gb

[AnttiL]

And now it's canceled officially.

[EstWRC]

Well, I guess time to get ready and testing for 2021 now

Only 3 events remaining now with original dates.

[AndyRAC]

Not a surprise, especially after reading the comments of the leader of the Sennedd, were he stated sporting events are bottom of the list. Some people may be confused when they see other sporting events taking place, F1, Premier League football, but a rally in Wales can't take place.......

[cali]

Well, I guess time to get ready and testing for 2021 now

Only 3 events remaining now with original dates.I think we don't have to wait for a long time until the remaining rallies will also cancel their events

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[Kaps]

And with all that done, I believe we can pretty safely say now there will be no more WRC at all this year.

So, what about those 3 events that we did have?
I think they shouldn't be taken into account as world championship rallies and this season should be declared null and void.

Let's just hope 2021 would bring the proper championship back!

[doubled1978]

And with all that done, I believe we can pretty safely say now there will be no more WRC at all this year.

So, what about those 3 events that we did have?
I think they shouldn't be taken into account as world championship rallies and this season should be declared null and void.

Let's just hope 2021 would bring the proper championship back!


Yep, difficult to imagine they can salvage it now... if they can’t run enough events to constitute a championship then why run any of them. Let’s hope they can come up with something, but it looks very difficult.

[tc10a]

If it is a special year then every single event which is able to run should be run. No matter if we have four, five or six events at the end.
It makes absolutely no sense to cancel all just as there wont be more than a certain number.

One or two more is always a lot better than zero. Zero is a major damage to the series for long term.

They have to rethink. If the planned events are not able to run for some reasons, maybe some other 2 day events at remote locations like an island are able to host a wrc event.
If for example ERC is able to run some of their island events, make it also a WRC event. This year is special, nothing has to be like in "normal" years.

[[RMC]Pip]

The whole point of the championship is to crown a champion. I don't think there's any value for the teams and the WRC brand to go ahead with some events just for the sake of it, especially without spectators. WRC is not like F1 - events rely heavily on the income from ticket sales.

But I agree, they should think outside of the box, this is not a normal year. Eastern-Europe wasn't hit as hard by COVID, maybe Croatia can jump in a year early. Maybe other countries are willing to step-up.

Hopefully, they can get the needed number of rallies to run to qualify as a world championship. Otherwise, they should concentrate their efforts on 2021.

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-big-changes-rally-gb-had-planned-for-2020-revealed/

Here we have information on the now-disposed routes for Wales Rally GB 2020

[the sniper]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-big-changes-rally-gb-had-planned-for-2020-revealed/

Here we have information on the now-disposed routes for Wales Rally GB 2020

Somewhat underwhelming, though I did set the bar pretty high with my opening post! Going back to this article (https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/radical-rally-gb-plans-put-on-hold-by-covid-19/), to be fair, Iain Campbell did only say "we’d come up with something a bit more radical". Should have realised the emphasis should have been on 'a bit'. I'm not not sure what to make of it. It would have been very useful as a basic proof of concept, to set a precedent. If they could have introduced a remote night stop into this event, you've essentially got the framework to allow a modern 'RAC' style event. But it seems a bit odd that they wouldn't have made more of it for this year. All that effort for Myherin, Sweet Lamb Hafren and Dyfi, the usual suspects. Come on, not even Taliesin?! :D Seemingly it might have been a Newtown base, so why not have given Radnor a shot instead Dyfi, at least?

The Sunday is another case of what could have been. If nothing else, it shows how short of money the organisers are, abandoning the forests entirely. But why just Oulton? I've wondered whether bringing back a day of 'Sunday Stages' would be possible. Maybe as a pre-Rally GB event, as I wouldn't personally willingly sacrifice a Sunday in the forests on a three day Rally GB. But, given they've gone down this road and made that sacrifice, why not be more ambitious?

SS14 Oulton Park
SS15 Trentham Gardens
SS16 Sutton Park
Finish Birmingham

Think of the impact that'd make! That could get noticed. That could attract the attention of sponsors. They've already taken the brave step out of Wales years ago now, last year particularly, so would it hurt to be a little more adventurous?

The only great loss from that route for me is the 25km in Clocaenog. I'd have loved to have seen the stage in there. Some of the new roads in there around the wind farm, which surely would have had to have been used, are Finland like, fast and wide. Combined with the more traditional narrow Cloc tracks, it could have been interesting. Something new-ish. Shakedown in Cloc would have been better too.

Sadly, all this became irrelevant courtesy of Covid 19. I suppose the upside to them having played it conservatively is that there's nothing too special to lament losing... At least it isn't hard to imagine what we'll be missing...

[AnttiL]

Somewhat underwhelming, though I did set the bar pretty high with my opening post! Going back to this article (https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/radical-rally-gb-plans-put-on-hold-by-covid-19/), to be fair, Iain Campbell did only say "we’d come up with something a bit more radical". Should have realised the emphasis should have been on 'a bit'. I'm not not sure what to make of it. It would have been very useful as a basic proof of concept, to set a precedent. If they could have introduced a remote night stop into this event, you've essentially got the framework to allow a modern 'RAC' style event. But it seems a bit odd that they wouldn't have made more of it for this year. All that effort for Myherin, Sweet Lamb Hafren and Dyfi, the usual suspects. Come on, not even Taliesin?! :D Seemingly it might have been a Newtown base, so why not have given Radnor a shot instead Dyfi, at least?

The Sunday is another case of what could have been. If nothing else, it shows how short of money the organisers are, abandoning the forests entirely. But why just Oulton? I've wondered whether bringing back a day of 'Sunday Stages' would be possible. Maybe as a pre-Rally GB event, as I wouldn't personally willingly sacrifice a Sunday in the forests on a three day Rally GB. But, given they've gone down this road and made that sacrifice, why not be more ambitious?

SS14 Oulton Park
SS15 Trentham Gardens
SS16 Sutton Park
Finish Birmingham

Good points. However, like I've said earlier, it's hard to argue against Myherin, Dyfi and Sweet Lamb Hafren since they are just so damn great stages, even if it means having unchanged route. I wouldn't trade any of them for Taliesin or even Radnor.

The Sunday park stages sound suddenly like a good idea. It would have some retro edge to it, and as we know those park stages are demanding. However, nowadays Sundays aren't that big with spectators so implementing it is maybe not sensible. In this time (sans COVID) it would have to be a Saturday evening of park stages with big party tents so you can drink beer and listen to a rock'n'roll band while a WRC driver does donuts on a parking lot.

[the sniper]

Good points. However, like I've said earlier, it's hard to argue against Myherin, Dyfi and Sweet Lamb Hafren since they are just so damn great stages, even if it means having unchanged route. I wouldn't trade any of them for Taliesin or even Radnor.

With Taliesin I'd only consider it as an additional stage on that loop. :)


The Sunday park stages sound suddenly like a good idea. It would have some retro edge to it, and as we know those park stages are demanding. However, nowadays Sundays aren't that big with spectators so implementing it is maybe not sensible. In this time (sans COVID) it would have to be a Saturday evening of park stages with big party tents so you can drink beer and listen to a rock'n'roll band while a WRC driver does donuts on a parking lot.

I honestly don't think the Sunday morning/early afternoon would be an issue spectator wise here. I think the novelty of having such a event locally in the likes of Trentham Gardens or particularly Sutton Park would be enough to draw people in, with some publicity. Alwen and Brenig struggle to handle the number of spectators, many of whom you can hear on the ground have English accents, particularly from the likes of the Liverpool and Manchester area. If they're not staying in the area, which I doubt many of them are, they'll have had to set out from their homes at 4am or 5am latest to be able to get into the stage. Even if you're staying locally you need to head out to the stages at that time if you want to be sure of having a decent day! So the likes of Oulton Park, Tatton Park, Trentham Gardens and Sutton Park would be comparatively much easier to reach from large population centres.

Rally GB is quite different from my experiences of Rally Finland. Rally GB isn't an easy event to spectate on, but that is part of its appeal. Rally Finland is (to its credit) a much more leisurely affair, I can 100% agree that having a park stage on Rally Finland (or many other events) in August would make far more sense on a Saturday afternoon, with the music and beer tents, than a Sunday morning. But in November, on a wet weekend in the UK, you're not going to get a party atmosphere either way. I don't know if it's a curiously British thing, but I think there's something which appeals to people here about taking enjoyment from doing things which sensible people would consider madness, incomprehensible, or a bit sh*t! The Sunday stages could be great again!

[AndyRAC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/why-the-past-could-be-key-to-ensuring-rally-gb-has-a-future/

Interesting thoughts - but, and it's a major but; surely the teams & WRC Promoter would want to keep the current 'event format'? However, in my view, the event and the sport in the UK would be better served by an event that is less restrictive.

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/why-the-past-could-be-key-to-ensuring-rally-gb-has-a-future/

Interesting thoughts - but, and it's a major but; surely the teams & WRC Promoter would want to keep the current 'event format'? However, in my view, the event and the sport in the UK would be better served by an event that is less restrictive.

What do you mean with less restrictive? Allowing remote services? Longer routes? It's more of an issue of expenses less than regulations.

One piece of that article doesn't fit my math. They say that it would be good to have multiple regions arranging the event to get more budget. At the same time, each region would get less exposure and hospitality revenue in return. Also title sponsoring would be more difficult (as I mentioned on my blog post (https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/04/15/fantasy-routes-wrc-carlisle-rally-gb/))

[the sniper]

One piece of that article doesn't fit my math. They say that it would be good to have multiple regions arranging the event to get more budget. At the same time, each region would get less exposure and hospitality revenue in return. Also title sponsoring would be more difficult (as I mentioned on my blog post (https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/04/15/fantasy-routes-wrc-carlisle-rally-gb/))

I agree with your assessment. I can't see how it wouldn't primarily need to rely on a commercial title sponsor or a philanthropist if it were to go national again. Maybe (well, pre-Covid) you could have got £150k to £250k in public funding from each region for their day of the event, with a premium for the Start and Finish, but that'd leave you short of the full budget required.

You're not going to get a bigger budget from a collection of regions than we have seen from Wales alone for their event.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Travelling around the regions during one event is never going to happen again (like the RAC days).

One region has to be the main place and source of funds with maybe a short venture to one other area (like a city stage, of a couple of stately homes).

[the sniper]

Travelling around the regions during one event is never going to happen again (like the RAC days).

One region has to be the main place and source of funds with maybe a short venture to one other area (like a city stage, of a couple of stately homes).

If I win the lottery, it'll definitely happen. ;)

Seriously though, while I don't think it's likely, I don't think it's impossible. The easiest option is a single region event, hopefully rotating between different regions, funded almost wholly by the public. But that relies on regions providing quite a large amount of public funding for an event which doesn't really tick any of the right boxes in the 21st Century... I think it'll become almost impossible for any regional Government to justify funding a rally so dearly when wider public policy is so anti-car, particularity ICE powered car, which rallying will be based on for a long time to come. Northern Ireland is probably the safest bet, Wales too as it is so car dependant as a nation and rallying still means something there, but how long before an 'enlightened' group of politicians decide enough is enough? Something other than the current model might become the only option.

Going back to what might have been this year, while it might have been a challenge, the Sunday leg seems to me increasingly like it would have been a massive missed opportunity. That could have been a great opportunity to let Rally GB make a far greater impact on a much wider population, when this could have been one of the few remaining opportunities to sell rallying to the wider public and sponsors. Time is running out for Rally GB, playing it safe is ultimately killing the sport here anyway, so why not put ones neck out?

[AnttiL]

Remember that you also need a base event, some rallying culture, organizers with experience, you cannot just put up a WRC event from nothing. That's why Northern Ireland is a strong candidate. Why not Scotland also, or the Kielder area. We come again back to my idea to have an event run in Scotland, Kielder and Lake District, but it again poses the issue of multiple regions.

[T16]

Genuine question..
Does the Monte span more than one region?

[AnttiL]

Genuine question..
Does the Monte span more than one region?

Is the Monte arranged by a rich automobile club and sponsored by a famous casino? There's a reason they don't even have to sell tickets to the stages...

[T16]

Is the Monte arranged by a rich automobile club and sponsored by a famous casino? There's a reason they don't even have to sell tickets to the stages...

Was that an answer?
Thought you were the guru.

Do any other events make it work across many regions?

[AnttiL]

Was that an answer?
I thought you posed a rhetorical question.

Do any other events make it work across many regions?
Not really. Portugal has the Friday stages around Arganil and Sweden does a long liaison for the Karlstad super special.

Drivers do not like long liaisons
Teams don't like remote servicing (even if it's just tyre change area)
Teams and organizers don't like to have their service park being empty during a weekend.
Most spectators don't really care if the rally is in a small/single region or not.
The organizers struggle already now to have the recce in two days (Monte has to have three recce days)

[T16]

I thought you posed a rhetorical question.

Not really. Portugal has the Friday stages around Arganil and Sweden does a long liaison for the Karlstad super special.

Drivers do not like long liaisons
Teams don't like remote servicing (even if it's just tyre change area)
Teams and organizers don't like to have their service park being empty during a weekend.
Most spectators don't really care if the rally is in a small/single region or not.
The organizers struggle already now to have the recce in two days (Monte has to have three recce days)

It was a genuine question.

The whole thing feels like it needs to do something different, that's for sure.

[AndyRAC]

Going back to what might have been this year, while it might have been a challenge, the Sunday leg seems to me increasingly like it would have been a massive missed opportunity. That could have been a great opportunity to let Rally GB make a far greater impact on a much wider population, when this could have been one of the few remaining opportunities to sell rallying to the wider public and sponsors. Time is running out for Rally GB, playing it safe is ultimately killing the sport here anyway, so why not put ones neck out?

I think that is the issue. It really doesn't make a great impact on the general public/ mainstream sporting media. Playing it 'safe' isn't really doing anything to help grow the event/ sport. And this has a knock on effect; the lack of interested big money backers - whether that be a major commercial sponsor or regional/tourist board.

One final thought; during the event's heyday, I suspect it didn't matter whether the event was in the WRC or not - it was still a massive event. Now it's run for the benefit of the WRC; no WRC, no event.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

That is spot-on. The WRC is for the manufacturers and sponsors nowadays and has gone increasingly this way over the years and even more so since the 2017- cars came in.

New countries and rallies have to beg to join in and do whatever the promoter says. But this is the same even for the classic events.

The costs of the latest-spec cars have also killed off the local entry in the top class compared to just a decade ago. No 'local hero' fighting the WRC big boys reduces the attraction of WRC to the general public in that country.

[AnttiL]

The costs of the latest-spec cars have also killed off the local entry in the top class compared to just a decade ago. No 'local hero' fighting the WRC big boys reduces the attraction of WRC to the general public in that country.

When was the last time this actually happened? (I mean, before Suninen in Finland 2017 on the 2017 car)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

When was the last time this actually happened? (I mean, before Suninen in Finland 2017 on the 2017 car)

Østberg in Sweden with Adapta/Prokop.

[AnttiL]

Østberg in Sweden with Adapta/Prokop.

Did he challenge for the win? Also, it happened with the 2017 cars. Did it ever happen with the previous generation cars?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

2016 Rally Mexico - Benito Guerra.

Maybe not challenging, but he brought a big local audience to watch him in a WRC car.

Others like Prokop, Bertelli & Gorban were often on events even if they werent locals. It all added to the entry and was good for fans to see.

[denkimi]

When was the last time this actually happened? (I mean, before Suninen in Finland 2017 on the 2017 car)
Duval in germany 2007 comes to mind.

It hasn't happened a lot, because even if you somehow would be able to get the same car as the factory drivers, those people have all the data. They do all the testing, they practically live in their car.

Even suninen wasn't a true privateer. He was driving a factory run car. It wasn't his, it wasn't rented from someone else, it was basicaly a tryout sold/given to him by malcolm.

[SubaruNorway]

Did he challenge for the win? Also, it happened with the 2017 cars. Did it ever happen with the previous generation cars?

Østberg in Rally Sweden 2011 6.5sec behind Hirvonen

[AnttiL]

2016 Rally Mexico - Benito Guerra.

Maybe not challenging, but he brought a big local audience to watch him in a WRC car.

Others like Prokop, Bertelli & Gorban were often on events even if they werent locals. It all added to the entry and was good for fans to see.

I think these guys should just go to WRC2, competitionally they're just in no-man's land driving a WRC car miles behind the factory cars. Besides, Bertelli does own his own WRC 2017 car.

Had it not been for COVID-19, we would have seen this year Jocius, Latvala, Loubet and Paddon with a number of starts in a WRC car.

Last year we had Grönholm doing his anniversary event, Virtanen in Finland, Paddon doing two unlucky non-starts. Before that Serderidis, Kremer, ...

[Co-driven]

2016 Rally Mexico - Benito Guerra.

Maybe not challenging, but he brought a big local audience to watch him in a WRC car.

Others like Prokop, Bertelli & Gorban were often on events even if they werent locals. It all added to the entry and was good for fans to see.

Also Marcos Ligato (DS3) and Gabriel Pozzo (Fiesta) with WRC in Rally Argentina a few years ago.

[AnttiL]

Apparently the 1997 RAC route was changed at the last minute. This TV preview shows Taliesin planned for Monday and some other changes.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqpH9UvXcAE2lVx?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqpJpzlXYAE_MqK?format=jpg&name=medium

https://youtu.be/g7w2kdC2mSM?t=512

[Steve Boyd]

Not that difficult to do when the stages are all on private land - as long as all the stages have been recce'd by the crews. Much more difficult on a tarmac rally, as proposed for Northern Ireland, where you are using closed public roads and need to apply for and announce the road closure times in advance of the event. It's even easier to make changes on a secret route event. The Roger Albert Clark Rally in 2010 made a completely new route on the last day when the planned stages were blocked by snow.

[AndyRAC]

I reckon that is from a draft route from earlier in the year. I remember ordering my 'Rally pack' in October and already knowing there were 2 runs of Hafren; one early morning, then the other late afternoon/early evening.

As for 2021; at the moment I doubt there will be one....

[doubled1978]

In 2013 the route for the Penmachno stage on Thursday night had to change the day before the stage ran. If you look on rally maps website, the map shows the original route. There are two hairpins towards the end of the stage, the second of which requires permission from the farmer to use his field for Marshall’s/access etc...and he withdrew the permission the day before. The stage actually we went straight on at the first hairpin and down to the bottom of the valley.
I don’t know how they sorted it out.

[satnav]

In 2013 the route for the Penmachno stage on Thursday night had to change the day before the stage ran. If you look on rally maps website, the map shows the original route. There are two hairpins towards the end of the stage, the second of which requires permission from the farmer to use his field for Marshall’s/access etc...and he withdrew the permission the day before. The stage actually we went straight on at the first hairpin and down to the bottom of the valley.
I don’t know how they sorted it out.


This is the way the stage eventually ran.

[satnav]

This is a better pic of the stage, the old stage is in red on here

[Sardalense]

They issued the bulletin the day before of the stage but the recce was done in the right way.