Ferrari once again escapes punishment SMH

[truefan72]

So late in the afternoon this news story broke:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/148480/fia-reaches-settlement-over-ferrari-2019-engine

Once again, Ferrari escape any kind of punishment or condemnation for basically running an illegal engine or flat out cheating for half the season.
WTF kind of statement is this?
why a closed settlement? and why don't we get the amount they were fined? Also what exactly did they do to earn that fine?
This is all BS to me and as long as Todt is head of the fIA, ferrari will get away with everything.

In 2007 Mclaren were fined $100M for possession of documents illegally obtained from Ferrari. Even though it is hard to say if it was used at all.

At the time the fIa said the punishment was that high in part due to the insistence by McLaren that they did nothing wrong, and hence, lied.

In 2019 Ferrari insisted up and down that their engine was legal and they did nothing wrong. Even though it was plain as day to anyone with half a brain that something was not right. This to me is even worse than what Mclaren did. They flat out cheated and won races with an illegal engine. This is about the worst thing you can do and they get away with it.

Other teams were getting points deducted for minor infringements, even during that season. So why not Ferrari?

At a bare minimum they should be stripped of all points from Spa, Monza, Singapore, and Japan. In fact, i would have stripped them of all points for all events after budapest and whatever constructor money they got, should be reallocated to the other teams rightfully tabulated once their results get nullified.

This is a shambolic excuse of a statement, light on the details and even more incredulous if you take particular note of this part.
"The FIA and Scuderia Ferrari have agreed to a number of technical commitments that will improve the monitoring of all Formula 1 power units for forthcoming championship seasons as well as assist the FIA in other regulatory duties in Formula 1 and in its research activities on carbon emissions and sustainable fuels."

So not only do they get away with it, with an undisclosed fine, but they get to work in monitoring other teams engines???
Madness. Just another chapter in a massive book of infringements they have gotten away with over the years because they are "Ferrari"
I have no faith whatsoever in the fIA being a fair arbiter of their own sport.
I seriously hope the other teams mount a serious protest or legal action against them. Not just for the principle, but for the financial loss they have accrued from being cheated on by ferrari.

[pino]

From the article and link you posted:

“A number of teams wrote to the FIA to seek clarification about design aspects of its power unit, though Ferrari was never found to be in breach of the regulations, and no rival formally protested the outfit.”

;)

[The Black Knight]

From the article and link you posted:

“A number of teams wrote to the FIA to seek clarification about design aspects of its power unit, though Ferrari was never found to be in breach of the regulations, and no rival formally protested the outfit.”

;)
As much as I commend your efforts to deflect from the obvious but the issue here id the “settlement” part. I’ve never heard of the FIA reaching a settlement with a team before. It’s nonsense. It must be clearcut and transparent. They either cheated or they didn’t, no fuzziness. If I were the teams I would be considering legal action here if full disclosure is not made on the settlement details.

It’s complete utter nonsense what has happened here.

[airshifter]

I see both sides on this issue. I have to wonder if the FIA actually found anything that could be deemed "illegal" at all, since they really haven't disclosed anything. But they found something, and came to some sort of settlement. It could be as simple as DAS.... something never officially protested and therefore not illegal.

But on the flip side, they should be completely transparent in what is going on. If DAS is officially protested at the start of the season, I suspect they will fully disclose what they determine, regardless of outcome. But if Ferrari got away with something that was in fact illegal, but never officially protested, the FIA might be walking on slippery ground.

I really don't know which way to go on this one. We shouldn't allow anything that is proven illegal, but should we allow in depth investigations without official protests? If the FIA start investigating teams based on media and driver speculation, we could be in for a world of nonsense that is never ending.

[Zico]

Oh boy.. A settlement? For what? Zero transparency = coverup. Incredible... The smell of FIA corruption and double standards is honkingly stinky with this one.

Just wow..

[N. Jones]

Considering Red Bull during 2010-2013 were using traction control, which is illegal, and no one complained, I do not see the problem here.

[Zico]

Considering Red Bull during 2010-2013 were using traction control, which is illegal, and no one complained, I do not see the problem here.


Are you referring to the clip.in this article?

https://jalopnik.com/has-red-bull-figured-out-how-to-cheat-f1s-traction-con-514107361

I'm not convinced by that at all... If RB's rivals had concerns back then that they might be doing TC.. I'd take a lot more notice.


This issue is totally different in that the FIA have investigated Ferrari due to the concerns raised by RB and the fact they have reached a 'settlement' which I assume to be a financial settlement? which suggests to me that they found something they shouldnt have.

Looks like Ferrari can do whatever illegal things they want with impunity,, safe in the knowledge that the crime will be covered up and the punishment a mere slap on the wrist.

[zako85]

Considering Red Bull during 2010-2013 were using traction control, which is illegal, and no one complained, I do not see the problem here.


This is a complete utter bullshit claim. It's sad that someone is still repeating it or using as some kind of argument.

[Bagwan]

So , what if (and this is just conjecture here) Ferrari were making the fuel sensor flutter to use more than their rivals , and it simply doesn't say you can't screw with the metering system ?
Would it have just been clever , or would it have been against the spirit of the rules ?

I have no real idea if this was the issue or not , but would it be right to bring the issue out in public if the only likely outcome would be a beating for the Ferrari brand .

I think there is room for an argument either way , and , so I am seeing a reason for the wording of the document from the FIA using "settlement" .

I expect that what was done wasn't "expressly forbidden" , like not adding a tube that goes around or passes by a sensor , but by altering the sensor's function itself .

It seems to be within the rules to have the deal between the two parties (FIA and Ferrari) alone , so it seems like the teams complaining may be on thin ice to a degree , although it doesn't seem very right from their point of view .

[Zico]

So , what if (and this is just conjecture here) Ferrari were making the fuel sensor flutter to use more than their rivals , and it simply doesn't say you can't screw with the metering system ?
Would it have just been clever , or would it have been against the spirit of the rules ?

I have no real idea if this was the issue or not , but would it be right to bring the issue out in public if the only likely outcome would be a beating for the Ferrari brand .

I think there is room for an argument either way , and , so I am seeing a reason for the wording of the document from the FIA using "settlement" .

I expect that what was done wasn't "expressly forbidden" , like not adding a tube that goes around or passes by a sensor , but by altering the sensor's function itself .

It seems to be within the rules to have the deal between the two parties (FIA and Ferrari) alone , so it seems like the teams complaining may be on thin ice to a degree , although it doesn't seem very right from their point of view .


All the Ferrari fans seem to be taking the uproar against the FIA as an attack on Ferrari... its not. For me this criticism is about the FIA rather than Ferrari.


What is the sole purpose of the fuel meter?

If you are causing the fuel meter to under read and gain more power in doing so... you are still bypassing the fuel meters functionality whether its a physical one or otherwise.

I think its not so dissimilar to when Toyota got caught using a modified turbo air restrictor in rallying. When the scrutineers released the fuel hose clip the spring loaded restrictor snapped back into the legal restriction position. Toyota got banned and thrown out the championship for a year.


For me this is not about what Ferrari may or may not have done...its about the FIA's bringing the sport into disrepute by not being transparent and just covering the issue up.
If I was a team boss considering entering F1, I'd be having massive second thoughts after that FIA revelation.



All the non Ferrari teams have released a joint statement today..


...."An international sporting regulator has the responsibility to act with the highest standards of governance, integrity and transparency.

"After months of investigations that were undertaken by the FIA only following queries raised by other teams, we strongly object to the FIA reaching a confidential settlement agreement with Ferrari to conclude this matter.

"Therefore, we hereby state publicly our shared commitment to pursue full and proper disclosure in this matter, to ensure that our sport treats all competitors fairly and equally. We do so on behalf of the fans, the participants and the stakeholders of Formula 1.

"In addition, we reserve our rights to seek legal redress, within the FIA's due process and before the competent courts."


This statement echos my own exact thoughts and feelings...

[The Black Knight]

There’s the regulations and then there’s the regulation tests for the legality on the car. My guess is Mercedes and Honda were making their engines to the regulations, whereas Ferrari were, at least, in part, designing their engines to pass the tests so their illegality can’t be proven via normal FIA means- this is probably why a settlement was reached, FIA probably knew they were cheating the regs but cannot prove it via their standard testing methods.

I also always felt this was the approach RBR had with their flexi wings back in 2010-2013ish.

[truefan72]

well, well well,
So here is the update and I am glad to see the other teams feel the same way as I do about this malarky by the FIA, even seeking legal action.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11949259/f1-teams-shocked-by-ferrari-fia-engine-settlement-want-disclosure

The rival teams statement in full:

"We, the undersigned teams, were surprised and shocked by the FIA's statement of Friday 28 February regarding the conclusion of its investigation into the Scuderia Ferrari Formula 1 Power Unit.

"An international sporting regulator has the responsibility to act with the highest standards of governance, integrity and transparency.

"After months of investigations that were undertaken by the FIA only following queries raised by other teams, we strongly object to the FIA reaching a confidential settlement agreement with Ferrari to conclude this matter.

"Therefore, we hereby state publicly our shared commitment to pursue full and proper disclosure in this matter, to ensure that our sport treats all competitors fairly and equally. We do so on behalf of the fans, the participants and the stakeholders of Formula One.

"In addition, we reserve our rights to seek legal redress, within the FIA's due process and before the competent courts.

"McLaren Racing Limited
Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Limited
Racing Point UK Limited
Red Bull Racing Limited
Renault Sport Racing Limited
Scuderia Alpha Tauri S.p.A.
Williams Grand Prix Engineering Limited"




Also not sure why Haas and Alfa Romero are silent on this matter. It is not as if Ferrari shared those engine tricks with them.

[The Black Knight]

FIA respond to the teams statements:


"The FIA has conducted detailed technical analysis on the Scuderia Ferrari Power Unit as it is entitled to do for any competitor in the FIA Formula One World Championship," read a statement.

"The extensive and thorough investigations undertaken during the 2019 season raised suspicions that the Scuderia Ferrari PU could be considered as not operating within the limits of the FIA regulations at all times.

"The Scuderia Ferrari firmly opposed the suspicions and reiterated that its PU always operated in compliance with the regulations.

"The FIA was not fully satisfied but decided that further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach.”


"To avoid the negative consequences that a long litigation would entail especially in light of the uncertainty of the outcome of such litigations and in the best interest of the Championship and of its stakeholders, the FIA, in compliance with Article 4 (ii) of its Judicial and Disciplinary Rules (JDR), decided to enter into an effective and dissuasive settlement agreement with Ferrari to terminate the proceedings.

"This type of agreement is a legal tool recognised as an essential component of any disciplinary system and is used by many public authorities and other sport federations in the handling of disputes."

Basically Ferrari were cheating and the FIA couldn’t prove it. The teams should block the Ferrari garage and entire pitlane at the Oz GP, all historical payments should be removed moving forward for Ferrari, and fine them a years budget. If they want to leave the sport after that then off with the cheats. They’ve brought nothing to the sport over the last 12 years in terms of innovation and all they do is piss and moan and threaten to leave. They’re such a disaster they can’t even cheat and win a championship.

[Bagwan]

FIA respond to the teams statements:



Basically Ferrari were cheating and the FIA couldn’t prove it. The teams should block the Ferrari garage and entire pitlane at the Oz GP, all historical payments should be removed moving forward for Ferrari, and fine them a years budget. If they want to leave the sport after that then off with the cheats. They’ve brought nothing to the sport over the last 12 years in terms of innovation and all they do is piss and moan and threaten to leave. They’re such a disaster they can’t even cheat and win a championship.

They say the PU "raised suspicions" and "could be considered" , so they had nothing definitive .
They are suspects in a crime that may or may not have been committed .

Every team walks as close to the edge as they can , hoping their interpretation of the rules can stand up in court .

The reds are taking their lumps now , even though it was all supposed to be confidential , and any gains that were made are all money down the loo , as they aren't likely to try whatever that trick was again , as the FIA are now wise to it .

So , really , all is good in the end .
There's no need for blockades .

[Zico]

Why does this still sound and smell like BS?

So the FIA claim they couldnt prove Ferrari were cheating but they still had to reach a settlement and a confidential agreement?

If the verdict was 'not proven' why try and cover it up and in doing so make them look 100% guilty?

So all future cheating allegations, the findings and punishments for every single team will also be covered up by a confidentiality agreement from now on?


None of it makes any sense, I'm not buying it.. the FIA are a disgrace, what a complete farce.



TBK- I don't know why you are calling for Ferrari to be blockaded etc... ALL teams would cheat if they thought they could get away with. Its the FIA that is the real problem here.

[truefan72]

Why does this still sound and smell like BS?

So the FIA claim they couldnt prove Ferrari were cheating but they still had to reach a settlement and a confidential agreement?

If the verdict was 'not proven' why try and cover it up and in doing so make them look 100% guilty?

So all future cheating allegations, the findings and punishments for every single team will also be covered up by a confidentiality agreement from now on?


None of it makes any sense, I'm not buying it.. the FIA are a disgrace, what a complete farce.



TBK- I don't know why you are calling for Ferrari to be blockaded etc... ALL teams would cheat if they thought they could get away with. Its the FIA that is the real problem here.

the more the FIA say, the worse it seems to me. all they are doing is harming the credibility of the sport, championship and the allotted money
RBR should finish 2nd in the championship and TBH Ferrari should be stripped of all WCC points as they essentially drove a cheating car for half the season.
To me that is the real issue here.
1. proper acknowledgment of the misconduct
2. removal from the 2019 WCC with all monies returned and reallocated to the teams accordingly.

I'm not looking for Ferrari to be blockaded.
I'm looking for them to be punished accordingly and in a transparent manner so we all know what happened
I would also escalate the punishment until they actually admit wrongdoing.
The entire WCC and WDC championship was compromised after Budapest and it really is strange that this doesn't bother the FIA
This is far worse than crashgate or spygate in my book, and how they get away with keeping points, prize money etc is really insulting to the other teams.

[greencroft]

The comparison with the way McLaren got treated by the FIA over the spygate affair makes this look even worse. I think that was a £100m fine (may have been $?) for them and there was no proof they had ever used any of the info in any case.

[Bagwan]

"I know you're guilty , but I can't prove it " doesn't hold up in court .

[airshifter]

"I know you're guilty , but I can't prove it " doesn't hold up in court .

It seems to only hold up in a court where the decision of "guilty" was determined before the fact. Call them cheaters, take away points, money, apply fines, etc...... but never prove guilt.

After the suspicions raised last year, the FIA conducted an investigation and couldn't prove anything, even intent. They have essentially admitted that they think Ferrari found a way to cheat, but they don't understand it well enough or have evidence that they did in fact cheat. Rather than commit to long and costly litigation matters, they offered a settlement. In a "black and white" case, the litigation wouldn't be long and costly, unless Ferrari wanted to throw vast amounts of money at a losing case.

The lack of transparency within the FIA is much more disturbing to me than any accusations against Ferrari. Behind the screams of "cheaters" last year, the FIA introduced the new directives and answered questions concerning fuel flow meters, attempts to circumvent them, etc. And while the cries of "cheaters" now switched to the chants of how Ferrari was suddenly down on power, Ferrari actually topped some of the straight line speeds on track after all that happened. Both Ferrari powered cars and Honda powered cars made big gains as compared to Mercedes, who had somehow had the dominant engine package for years without the chants of "cheaters" as they powered past their competition.


I don't think the FIA investigation is sure of anything. I think the only people who are sure of anything are those that will apply bias towards their favored team, or against opposing teams.


If anything at the current time, I think Ferrari have been wronged by the FIA statements. Either there was evidence of cheating or there was not. If there was evidence of "gray areas" being pushed through loopholes, clarifications should take place through further technical directives. They have recently done the same with the DAS system, and new regs prohibit it in 2021. If they was no such evidence, then the FIA should not release "gray area" statements, as it brings Ferrari into question regardless of any actual wrongdoing been known.

Mercedes held engine advantage for years without anyone seeming to have a full understanding of how they were making that power. They appear to have been the first to surpass 50% efficiency in their cars. In a body now fuel controlled, it's just as possible that Ferrari somehow found a small advantage in efficiency, and that Honda did the same, while Mercedes stalled in development due to having been farther ahead and already having raised the bar closer to limits of current tech.






As far as a comparison to Spygate, this is not even similar at this time IMO. The investigation into Spygate allowed drivers immunity in exchange for cooperation. It was revealed that emails between de la Rosa and Alonso discussed the information that was stolen, with sources named within them. This was after Mclaren had denied any distribution taking place.

Renault were found to be in possession of Mclaren information, but were not fined as no evidence existed that is was ever distributed or used.

I would fully expect that if any further investigation is taken into the current matter, and evidence of cheating is found, that Ferrari would pay a large fine and most likely be stripped of WCC points and payouts.

[airshifter]

I'm looking for them to be punished accordingly and in a transparent manner so we all know what happened
I would also escalate the punishment until they actually admit wrongdoing.



What actual breach of regulations would you punish them for? I can't find any that state it is illegal to be accused of cheating.

If waterboarding doesn't work, should the punishments be escalated to hanging?

[Nitrodaze]

It is the duty of the FIA to prove guilt. Until they are able to do so, it is ridiculous to point a finger of guilt at Ferrari. That is simply prejudice; guilty until proven innocent. However, this is a very common practise on the Paddock anyway. The FIA have nosed around the Ferrari operation all of the 2019 season and have come up with nothing, in my book, Ferrari are innocent and it would be grossly unfair to say they are cheating. If they are, then the FIA is grossly incompetent. Of course there would be the usual suggestion that Ferrari are getting special treatment or worst, somebody's hands has been greased. All of that is rubbish in my view.

Finally, Ferrari has the fastest engine on the straight, we have to let this state of affairs play out. Whatever they are doing is fair play. But what l fail to understand is why it was dealt with in closed doors. I suspect there must be something about the engine which was questioned but could not be conclusively be deemed to be illegal. But discussing this aspect of the engine openly would expose a competitive advantage to Ferrari's competitors. Hence the reason for resolving it in a closed discussion with Ferrari.

It is also very interesting to note that the statement absolving Ferrari of any guilt came after the Mercedes DAS was deemed to be legal. The crucial difference between the instances was that the DAS was open to scrutiny by the entire paddock, while the aspect of the Ferrari engine in question was not. But for obvious reasons.

The fact that the Ferrari cars started the 2019 season with a smokey engine that turned out to be the fastest engine, gives reason for suspicion that they may be burning oil which may be giving them some sort of boosted power. If that is the case, the FIA ought to find how they are doing it and outlaw that aspect of the engine for the 2020 season. Clearly they have not found any such thing. If they have, Ferrari have done a masterfull job of designing it within the extremities of the regulations.

[Zico]

I am shocked Ferrari didnt object to the wording of the FIA statement that they reached a settlement as it is strongly suggestive of guilt for something... The very fact that they didn't object only serves to further cement the speculation.


Surprised Liberty are pulicly backing the FIA's decision to deal with the matter in this way as it has done further damage to the already ropey image it had of being biased towards Ferrari.

Todt should resign immediately and a neutral be instated in his place.

[zako85]

How does this scandal compare to 2007 McLaren espionage controversy? McLaren's punishment was very harsh back then (disqualification plus hefty fine).

[airshifter]

How does this scandal compare to 2007 McLaren espionage controversy? McLaren's punishment was very harsh back then (disqualification plus hefty fine).






As far as a comparison to Spygate, this is not even similar at this time IMO. The investigation into Spygate allowed drivers immunity in exchange for cooperation. It was revealed that emails between de la Rosa and Alonso discussed the information that was stolen, with sources named within them. This was after Mclaren had denied any distribution taking place.

Renault were found to be in possession of Mclaren information, but were not fined as no evidence existed that is was ever distributed or used.

I would fully expect that if any further investigation is taken into the current matter, and evidence of cheating is found, that Ferrari would pay a large fine and most likely be stripped of WCC points and payouts.

To further the above, Spygate started when a copy shop employee reported the copies being made. If you aren't going to use or distribute the information, why would you need copies? But Mclaren claimed the information was never used. After Alonso's attempt at blackmail (for all practical purposes) he provided proof that himself and de la Rosa had been given some of the information and were discussing it in emails.

In short, there was actual evidence of wrongdoing for the Spygate scandal.

[truefan72]

It is impressive how some Ferrari fans are twisting themselves into knots trying to defend the team.
1. They reached a settlement...which essentially means they paid money to make it go away
2. they made sure that the actual settlement and malfeascance was kept private and undisclosed

Does that sound like innocence to you?
Essentially they managed to pay hush money.
This is no different than somebody with means covering up their crimes, let's say sexual deviance" with a settlement payment and NDA
you can convince yourself all day long that they "didn't admit guilt" or the FIA can't quite prove it which i seriously doubt as i suspect they did find damning evidence and just kinda sorta let them off the hook because they are ferrari. But the fact remains that they paid money and are trying to cloak the entire thing with a nondisclosure pact.

I'll bet you there is actual evidence of wrongdoing. but the FIA, as always, is trying to protect ferrari.
This is worse than spygate airshifter, and you know it.

[Zico]

It is impressive how some Ferrari fans are twisting themselves into knots trying to defend the team.
1. They reached a settlement...which essentially means they paid money to make it go away
2. they made sure that the actual settlement and malfeascance was kept private and undisclosed

Does that sound like innocence to you?
Essentially they managed to pay hush money.
This is no different than somebody with means covering up their crimes, let's say sexual deviance" with a settlement payment and NDA
you can convince yourself all day long that they "didn't admit guilt" or the FIA can't quite prove it which i seriously doubt as i suspect they did find damning evidence and just kinda sorta let them off the hook because they are ferrari. But the fact remains that they paid money and are trying to cloak the entire thing with a nondisclosure pact.

I'll bet you there is actual evidence of wrongdoing. but the FIA, as always, is trying to protect ferrari.
This is worse than spygate airshifter, and you know it.



Well, It does look pretty damming that Ferrari were doing something naughty and that the FIA are as corrupt as a third world dictator.. but as it stands we can only speculate as to what the facts might be.

Maybe its all just a misunderstanding and an incorruptible Ferrari just offered the FIA a method and the technology to catch all the other manufacturers who aren't quite so incorruptible?

Meanwhile, here we are all pointing the accusatory finger at them both... and its just us who has the total wrong end of the stick?

Nah... maybe not.. :D

[Nitrodaze]

It is impressive how some Ferrari fans are twisting themselves into knots trying to defend the team.
1. They reached a settlement...which essentially means they paid money to make it go away
2. they made sure that the actual settlement and malfeascance was kept private and undisclosed

Does that sound like innocence to you?
Essentially they managed to pay hush money.
This is no different than somebody with means covering up their crimes, let's say sexual deviance" with a settlement payment and NDA
you can convince yourself all day long that they "didn't admit guilt" or the FIA can't quite prove it which i seriously doubt as i suspect they did find damning evidence and just kinda sorta let them off the hook because they are ferrari. But the fact remains that they paid money and are trying to cloak the entire thing with a nondisclosure pact.

I'll bet you there is actual evidence of wrongdoing. but the FIA, as always, is trying to protect ferrari.
This is worse than spygate airshifter, and you know it.

I think it is pure speculation to suggest that they paid to make the problem go away. I can see how the situation might not seem equitable. After all, the current FIA president was a Ferrari team boss. This alone is enough to cause some level of suspicion that Ferrari got away with something. Unfortunately, F1 probably do not have a body that investigates corruption or abuse of authority. That said, there is no evidence at this point to suggest any of that has taken place.

There is no fact or evidence that Ferrari paid money to anyone. I remain quite flabbergasted that you are adamant of the existence of some sort of wrong doing. We would have to wait and see what turns up by the time we arrive at Melborne. I shall eat humble pie if you turn out to be correct.

By the way, l am definitely not a Ferrari fan. I lean towards Mclaren and recently Mercedes.

[Zico]

Ecclestone-FIA leave teams no choice but to sue.

"Former F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone says that the FIA has left teams with no choice but to sue the governing body over how it has handled the row about the legality of Ferrari's 2019 car.

Following complaints from other teams, the SF90 was closely examined by the FIA during the course of last season with the focus being on its fuel-flow system.

Rival teams suspected the car of dodging restrictions on the rate of fuel that a car could use during a race, explaining the sudden jump in the performance of Ferrari's power unit mid-season.

Ferrari denied the allegations and appeared to have been cleared of any wrong-doing by the FIA. But last week, a statement from the FIA revealing that it had reached a "confidential settlement" with Ferrari over the matter reignited the controversy.

Abiteboul remains unhappy with FIA over 'Ferrari-gate'
Red Bull motor consultant Dr Helmut Marko said that losing out on second place in the constructors championship had cost his team about $24 million in potential lost prize money.

“We knew from our GPS data that something was wrong. We didn’t have enough evidence, so we didn’t officially protest," he told F1-Insider.com.

And now Ecclestone has waded into the debate, saying that the way the FIA has handled the matter leaves it open to being sued by the seven non-Ferrari affiliated teams.

“The teams have to sue the FIA," he insisted this week. "It’s about millions that I think they [the teams] deserve back in money."

Ecclestone was unimpressed by the FIA's argument that it had lacked concrete evidence to bring charges under the sporting regulations, and the reason it opted for a confidential settlement with Ferrari instead.

"If Ferrari were clean and innocent, why did they even agree to a deal with Jean Todt? That alone seems like a confession to me," countered the 89-year-old.




He maintained that the row would never have been allowed to escalate to its current proportions back in his time as F1 supremo.

“There were often fires that I, as a kind of top firefighter, had to put out," he acknowledged.

"In my time, however, it was always possible to find a common consensus between the teams, the FIA and myself. But it’s too late for that now.”

The FIA maintains that its right to reach a confidential settlement with a team is part of the sport's disciplinary regulations introduced by President Jean Todt in 2010 to protect the sport's image or in the event of a unwinnable legal dispute.

But in a response to the FIA's initial statement, the seven teams not using Ferraripower units threatened to take further action over the matter "within the FIA’s due process and before the competent courts"."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/f1i.com/news/369717-ecclestone-fia-leaves-teams-no-choice-but-to-sue.html/amp




A bit rich coming from him.. but he probably still knows a thing or two.

[Nitrodaze]

Ecclestone is right. If the FIA is letting Ferrari to get away with breaking engine rules, then that has to be exposed. The real issue here, is the reluctance of the FIA to publish openly what it queried on the Ferrari engine and why they found it was within the rules. All of this would go away if they just published the details of their investigation.

I quite agree that the FIA has handled this issue in a manner that can only be seen as an attempt to conceal something. While that feeling exist in the paddock, particularly amongs those teams that feel they have been deprived of something tangible that can be measured in money, this discontent shall rage on to the courts. Until this is resolved conclusively, there would always be a finger of guilt and distrust pointed at the FIA and Ferrari.

But l still give Ferrari the benefit of the doubt. If it turns out otherwise, it would be a demonstration of how tough it is for Ferrari or any other team to get on even terms with Mercedes.

Like the six times driver world champion Lewis Hamilton, the six times constructor world champion Mercedes is extremely difficult to beat on the technical front.

[Bagwan]

"Unwinnable legal dispute" is the applicable phrase .

The other teams signed up to the same rules as Ferrari , which allow for a confidential agreement .

Ferrari , obviously I think , have an arguable stance that they were not breaching the rules .

Perhaps the protesting teams should be wary of bringing the sport into disrepute .

[The Black Knight]

Whatever the future of F1 I hope Ferrari never win a championship ever again.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/148956/fia-ferrari-blocked-release-of-engine-case-details

[gm99]

Whatever the future of F1 I hope Ferrari never win a championship ever again.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/148956/fia-ferrari-blocked-release-of-engine-case-details

Apparently, the "settlement" between Ferrari and the FIA contains a confidentiality clause, which means that the FIA must have agreed to those terms. So it's a bit pitiful for Todt to now complain that he can't say anything.
Ferrari have not covered itself with glory in this affair, but the FIA's role is ten times worse.

[Nitrodaze]

Whatever the future of F1 I hope Ferrari never win a championship ever again.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/148956/fia-ferrari-blocked-release-of-engine-case-details

My feeling is Todt is talking bollocks. Can any other team on the grid impose a sanction on their information like this. I think that would be no. So what the FIA president is saying is that there is a two tier system for the imposition of the scrutiny of the FIA. Which already says the FIA is operating with discrimination to the smaller teams.

It is not a fair competition if every team is not governed be the same rules and regulation. It is a very shameless admittance by Todt. The FIA's job is to scrutinize and ensure that every team is operating within the rules. They seem to failing to do that here.

[Bagwan]

"we cannot for sure demonstrate as much as we should that they [Ferrari] were not legal'."

That phrasing , I think , is key here .

I'm not saying it's right , whatever they did .
But , it simply sounds like whatever proof there was , wasn't absolutely definitive , and so , forcing them to divulge engine secrets , especially when they are mandating a separate fix in the new metering , seems a bit Draconian .

So , Todt whining about this is not odd , as the other teams are up his nose about it , people are crying about a red bias , and Ferrari aren't interested in any such idea , as they haven't been charged with this crime , as there evidently isn't enough proof .
He's between a rock and a hard place . It's in the rules .

[Nitrodaze]

"we cannot for sure demonstrate as much as we should that they [Ferrari] were not legal'."

That phrasing , I think , is key here .

I'm not saying it's right , whatever they did .
But , it simply sounds like whatever proof there was , wasn't absolutely definitive , and so , forcing them to divulge engine secrets , especially when they are mandating a separate fix in the new metering , seems a bit Draconian .

So , Todt whining about this is not odd , as the other teams are up his nose about it , people are crying about a red bias , and Ferrari aren't interested in any such idea , as they haven't been charged with this crime , as there evidently isn't enough proof .
He's between a rock and a hard place . It's in the rules .

I hear you. But the FIA do not need to divulge engine secrets. They only need to explain what they suspected might have broken the rules and what they did to scrutinize it. And why they have found it inconclusive without giving details about the design. Yes, that information would be enough information for teams to workout what Ferrari is doing but not how they have kept it within the rules. I am sure that information would be challenged by some teams that want more information of the design secret. But the FIA would be blameless at this point and they can safely ignore any further grovelling.

The current situation is that, the FIA has not given the teams enough [satisfactory] information about how they arrived at an inconclusive scrutiny. I personally do not think Ferrari has anything to be criticized for. They have come up with a design that is within the rules. It is up to the FIA to say ortherwise. Until The FIA does, Ferrari is blameless. And it would be unfair to accuse them of cheating or for anything else.

It is simple, if the FIA takes an interest in an aspect of a teams car, enough to investigate it, they; the FIA are obliged to notify all the other teams what their investigation was about and their conclusions.

[Bagwan]

I hear you. But the FIA do not need to divulge engine secrets. They only need to explain what they suspected might have broken the rules and what they did to scrutinize it. And why they have found it inconclusive without giving details about the design. Yes, that information would be enough information for teams to workout what Ferrari is doing but not how they have kept it within the rules. I am sure that information would be challenged by some teams that want more information of the design secret. But the FIA would be blameless at this point and they can safely ignore any further grovelling.

The current situation is that, the FIA has not given the teams enough [satisfactory] information about how they arrived at an inconclusive scrutiny. I personally do not think Ferrari has anything to be criticized for. They have come up with a design that is within the rules. It is up to the FIA to say ortherwise. Until The FIA does, Ferrari is blameless. And it would be unfair to accuse them of cheating or for anything else.

It is simple, if the FIA takes an interest in an aspect of a teams car, enough to investigate it, they; the FIA are obliged to notify all the other teams what their investigation was about and their conclusions.

If they plainly state they cannot demonstrate conclusively that the reds were doing anything illegal , then what right should they have at all to demand they disclose anything at all ?

I suspect that the FIA were flirting with law suits when Todt used the phrase "as much as we should" in that quote .
It insinuates guilt that they cannot prove . That's dangerous , as is insinuating anything nefarious about Ferrari not giving up information , when they are not obligated to do so .

In this situation , they were clever enough to escape capture , and thus , must be deemed within the rules .
They are suspects in a crime that could not be proven to have happened .

Some may see it as clever , and some as dishonest and cheating . That's what fans do .

I don't believe that any of the teams protested officially , but were quick to complain at the conclusion of the investigation .
So , they had no right to know anything about it , as far as I can see .
Please correct me if I'm wrong about this last point , by all means .

[Nitrodaze]

I don't believe that any of the teams protested officially , but were quick to complain at the conclusion of the investigation .
So , they had no right to know anything about it , as far as I can see .
Please correct me if I'm wrong about this last point , by all means .

Well, there were clear suggestion by the teams that Ferrari may be burning oil to boost the power output of their engines. The smokey Ferrari at the start of the 2018 season was a clear telltale sign that there was something amiss with the Ferrari engine. These murmuring were enough to give the FIA cause to investigate the Ferrari engine. What the teams were hoping to hear at the end of the investigation was whether Ferrari was or was not burning oil in its combustion chambers.

I think it would be inaccurate to say the teams have no rights to complain. They have every right to do so. Because if Ferrari is found to be burning oil in the combustion chamber of its engine, then Ferrari is not using the fuel composition as stipulated in the regulation which every other team have complied with. They would be gaining an unfair advantage by boosting their engine power with oil mixed into the fuel fed into the comnbustion chamber of their engines. That would produce more effective torque in the powertrain. Hence, would be illegal.

The problem here is that the FIA has failed to answer the question; Is Ferrari burning oil in the combustion chambers of its engine?

Every team on the grid is entitled to that answer. The state of affairs is now such that the FIA is indirectly accusing Ferrari of cheating by saying it is inconclusive. They are simply saying that they might be burning oil but we don't know how they are doing it. Since they can't prove it, they are now trying to use public opinion to force Ferrari to clear the air by publicly explaining how their combustion process works.

It effectively is a stalemate; Ferrari must give up their competitive advantage or be seen to be cheats. Or the FIA looking incompetent at scrutinizing engine infraction of the regulations or publicly say there was no rules broken by the Ferrari engine.

[Jag_Warrior]

Or the FIA looking incompetent...

I think that ship has sailed... right into an iceberg.

[Nitrodaze]

I suspect that the FIA were flirting with law suits when Todt used the phrase "as much as we should" in that quote .
It insinuates guilt that they cannot prove . That's dangerous , as is insinuating anything nefarious about Ferrari not giving up information , when they are not obligated to do so .


Baggy, the other thing to bear in mind is that, every team is now uncomfortable exposing their design secrets to FIA scrutinizers since these scrutinizers are being poached from the FIA because of the valuable knowledge that they have of every team's designs and secrets. FIA officials taking up jobs with teams after a few years of scrutinizing was always going to be problematic. If Ferrari appears to be cagey about their engine design, this may be one of the main factors for that.

In truth, it is a difficult situation for both the FIA and Ferrari. I have a feeling that we shall be seeing more of these inconclusive investigations in the future as teams try to conseal their competitive advantage from FIA scrutineers. Not necessarily to cheat but to protect intellectual property, as we are now finding with Ferrari.

FIA officials taking up jobs in Teams has weekened the trust between the FIA and the teams. I personally think any official of the FIA should not be allowed to work for any team or applicant teams. Of course this poses a problem for the FIA to attract talented engineers to work for them, which they usually source from staff of teams anyway. The situation is a bad case of "Conflict of Interest".

[Bagwan]

I think that ship has sailed... right into an iceberg.

I kinda see that as really the gist of it , yeah .

They declared them guilty at the same time as saying they couldn't be charged .
I'd be some pissed if I were in red shoes .